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(Wisconsin Gazette)   Pope Francis once supported civil unions   (wisconsingazette.com) divider line 73
    More: Interesting, Pope Francis, civil unions, Kirchners, Bergoglio, pope, Pope Francis I, same-sex marriages  
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2053 clicks; posted to Politics » on 21 Mar 2013 at 2:54 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-21 02:57:56 AM  
Back when he was only Big Pappa Bergoglio?
 
2013-03-21 02:58:36 AM  
And then he became the face of opposition.

Who doesn't think that following a book written 2 thousand years ago is a good idea?
 
2013-03-21 03:05:36 AM  

MrSplifferton: And then he became the face of opposition.


He's a Jesuit, that means he took a vow obedience to the Pope. If the Pope says jump, he jumps. Granted now that he is Pope, things are a bit different.
 
2013-03-21 03:10:48 AM  
"Lesser of two evils"?

 As always, my suggestion is to remove the state from marriage entirely. Fair to everyone, especially in America, where we're inundated with 'small government' charlatans who want dictation over your personal life.
 
2013-03-21 03:15:02 AM  
OK, dictation was the wrong word. Still.
 
2013-03-21 03:18:13 AM  

dickfreckle: OK, dictation was the wrong word. Still.


Just claim you were dictating that post and blame your secretary.
 
2013-03-21 03:19:10 AM  

WhyteRaven74: MrSplifferton: And then he became the face of opposition.

He's a Jesuit, that means he took a vow obedience to the Pope. If the Pope says jump, he jumps. Granted now that he is Pope, things are a bit different.


Jesuits are like the Rangers . Airbourne Priests .
 
2013-03-21 03:22:13 AM  

WhyteRaven74: MrSplifferton: And then he became the face of opposition.

He's a Jesuit, that means he took a vow obedience to the Pope. If the Pope says jump, he jumps. Granted now that he is Pope, things are a bit different.



As much as I would like to believe that things will change...This is starting to look more like a clever PR campaing then an actual reforming of the Catholic Church.
 
2013-03-21 03:41:49 AM  
Of course, when he was in the college.
 
2013-03-21 03:55:06 AM  
When you sell your vast holdings of art, jewels, and gold; when you give that money to the poor, and the people that you've harmed; when you follow the teachings of Jesus, rather than his hangers-on, then I'll take you seriously.
Until then, stuff it, and break it off.
 
2013-03-21 04:15:50 AM  
So? He's still a part of a corrupt religious organization that preys on fears and breeds hatred and divisions.
 
2013-03-21 04:32:09 AM  

dickfreckle: As always, my suggestion is to remove the state from marriage entirely.


That's also the most retarded solution possible. Between caving in to the bigots (yes, that would be caving in to the bigots) and the massive economical and legal problems that it'd cause... Stop suggesting that. It makes you look stupid.
 
2013-03-21 04:51:01 AM  
so what? his predecessor once supported hitler

/bam! godwin
 
2013-03-21 04:53:36 AM  

winterbraid: so what? his predecessor once supported hitler

/bam! godwin


High five!
 
2013-03-21 04:56:33 AM  
Oh yes, the old, "don't give the gays marriage, but they can have civil unions," line, which becomes, "civil unions are bad," the second a government proposes implementing them.
 
2013-03-21 05:10:45 AM  

dickfreckle: OK, dictation was the wrong word. Still.


Is that anything like lactation?
 
2013-03-21 05:25:44 AM  

dickfreckle: OK, dictation was the wrong word. Still.


No, it's quite appropriate.  "Arbitrary command" is a higher-level definition than "uttering words to be transcribed."
 
2013-03-21 06:07:16 AM  
Instead of comparing him to true "progressives", compare him to his conteporaries.  If you expected some dude to be elected Pope and come in and make broad declarations reversing all the antiquidated social policies, you're expectations are unrealistic.  Seriously.  Compared to his predecessors this dude is our first "hippie pope".  It also seems tome that rather than just blindly following Catholic ideology, he actually tries to "think" about things and tries to adapt them to the realities of life.  Take his view on "civil unions" for example.  While against same sex marriage because of his religious views, he could not support discrimination which also goes against the same views.  He chose to support "civil unions" over same sex marriage as a way to "compromise" those values because he did not want to support discrimination.  Add that in with his views on helping the poor and protecting the environment too; within the realm of reality and realistic expectations Pope Francis as progressive of a Pope as one could ask for.

Compare this to American Evangellical leaders.  A religious leader who actually believes in compromise and nuance.  This is also the one Christian church that officially recognizes evolution as a fact.
 
2013-03-21 06:08:47 AM  

Fluorescent Testicle: dickfreckle: As always, my suggestion is to remove the state from marriage entirely.

That's also the most retarded solution possible. Between caving in to the bigots (yes, that would be caving in to the bigots) and the massive economical and legal problems that it'd cause... Stop suggesting that. It makes you look stupid.


It's always amusing when someone doesn't know the difference between religious marriage and civil marriage, and gets their panties into a twist over it when someone suggests we separate the two.
 
2013-03-21 06:14:39 AM  
"Bergoglio [...] called adoption by gay and lesbian couples a form of discrimination against children."

Equality is discrimination.
War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.
 
2013-03-21 06:33:19 AM  
I don't care what the pope thinks, it has no effect on reality.
 
2013-03-21 06:36:16 AM  

WhyteRaven74: MrSplifferton: And then he became the face of opposition.

He's a Jesuit, that means he took a vow obedience to the Pope. If the Pope says jump, he jumps. Granted now that he is Pope, things are a bit different.


Been different for a few centuries.
 
2013-03-21 06:36:44 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: It's always amusing when someone doesn't know the difference between religious marriage and civil marriage, and gets their panties into a twist over it when someone suggests we separate the two.


We were both talking about civil marriage, genius.
 
2013-03-21 06:57:32 AM  

heavymetal: Instead of comparing him to true "progressives", compare him to his conteporaries.  If you expected some dude to be elected Pope and come in and make broad declarations reversing all the antiquidated social policies, you're expectations are unrealistic.  Seriously.  Compared to his predecessors this dude is our first "hippie pope".  It also seems tome that rather than just blindly following Catholic ideology, he actually tries to "think" about things and tries to adapt them to the realities of life.  Take his view on "civil unions" for example.  While against same sex marriage because of his religious views, he could not support discrimination which also goes against the same views.  He chose to support "civil unions" over same sex marriage as a way to "compromise" those values because he did not want to support discrimination.  Add that in with his views on helping the poor and protecting the environment too; within the realm of reality and realistic expectations Pope Francis as progressive of a Pope as one could ask for.

Compare this to American Evangellical leaders.  A religious leader who actually believes in compromise and nuance.  This is also the one Christian church that officially recognizes evolution as a fact.


You sound Catholic./snark

Yeah, I get where you're coming from.  In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king, and in the land of the Abrahamists the Jesuit is a reformer.  And I can respect a priest who at least sends a protest up the chain before joining in the oppression.

But the threefold problem is this: One, I don't know how true this story is and how trumped-up for PR it is.  Two, "better than bad" isn't necessarily "good."  Three, this is the internet and making fun of people, places and things is part of the fun.  INTERNET!

My honest, real-world, real-life opinions?  He's probably as clean as a man can be while still a member of the European old-bloodline old-money old-fashioned bigot club that rose to a high rank in the church.  The pedo sex scandals aren't actually NEW to me since they were a Protestant defamation (true, but not true all the time) of the church since the Reformation got moving.  As such the newest round of scandals and actual arrests didn't really change my opinion of the church as a whole, and it confuses me that it HAS changed some people's views.  I think you can do worse than the RCC, but an abrahamist is an abrahamist and the bar's pretty low for religion.  I think they've done more evil than good, but I don't know that the majority of humankind can HANDLE not having an imaginary cosmic daddy keeping them in line.

And this guy COULD drive some positive reform (any positive reform), but I'll believe it when I see it.
 
2013-03-21 07:00:24 AM  
I love how gay marriage has completely emptied out of all media coverage here in wa st. Its like they realized that the sky hasnt fallen since it happened. Of course i havent been to a church in 7 years, they are probably still blasting it at the pulpit.
 
2013-03-21 07:03:24 AM  

JohnnyC: So? He's still a part of a corrupt religious organization that preys on fears and breeds hatred and divisions.


You can substitute the word government in place of religious and get the same result. Both entities are all about separating us from our money and controlling our lives.
 
2013-03-21 07:05:11 AM  
Wyalt Derp:
Equality is discrimination.
War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.


one of these things is not likes the others, tell me can you guess which one....
 
2013-03-21 07:18:01 AM  

TheBigJerk: heavymetal: Instead of comparing him to true "progressives", compare him to his conteporaries.  If you expected some dude to be elected Pope and come in and make broad declarations reversing all the antiquidated social policies, you're expectations are unrealistic.  Seriously.  Compared to his predecessors this dude is our first "hippie pope".  It also seems tome that rather than just blindly following Catholic ideology, he actually tries to "think" about things and tries to adapt them to the realities of life.  Take his view on "civil unions" for example.  While against same sex marriage because of his religious views, he could not support discrimination which also goes against the same views.  He chose to support "civil unions" over same sex marriage as a way to "compromise" those values because he did not want to support discrimination.  Add that in with his views on helping the poor and protecting the environment too; within the realm of reality and realistic expectations Pope Francis as progressive of a Pope as one could ask for.

Compare this to American Evangellical leaders.  A religious leader who actually believes in compromise and nuance.  This is also the one Christian church that officially recognizes evolution as a fact.

You sound Catholic./snark

Yeah, I get where you're coming from.  In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king, and in the land of the Abrahamists the Jesuit is a reformer.  And I can respect a priest who at least sends a protest up the chain before joining in the oppression.

But the threefold problem is this: One, I don't know how true this story is and how trumped-up for PR it is.  Two, "better than bad" isn't necessarily "good."  Three, this is the internet and making fun of people, places and things is part of the fun.  INTERNET!

My honest, real-world, real-life opinions?  He's probably as clean as a man can be while still a member of the European old-bloodline old-money old-fashioned bigot club that rose to a high rank in t ...


Fair enough.
 
2013-03-21 07:18:05 AM  

Elmo Jones: When you sell your vast holdings of art, jewels, and gold; when you give that money to the poor, and the people that you've harmed; when you follow the teachings of Jesus, rather than his hangers-on, then I'll take you seriously.
Until then, stuff it, and break it off.


Yeah, that's pretty much the conclusion I've come to...

I don't care what they do, honestly. I was raised Catholic, but religion has no bearing on my life these days.
However, when they try to codify their regressive dogma into secular law, then I have a problem with it.
 
2013-03-21 07:32:39 AM  

dickfreckle: "Lesser of two evils"?

 As always, my suggestion is to remove the state from marriage entirely. Fair to everyone, especially in America, where we're inundated with 'small government' charlatans who want dictation over your personal life.


All marriages are civil unions.  Those who feel the need can have a clergyman sign the forms, but it's still a civil union.
 
2013-03-21 07:42:51 AM  

keylock71: I don't care what they do, honestly. I was raised Catholic, but religion has no bearing on my life these days.


Same, but with four years of Catholic high school.
 
2013-03-21 07:48:03 AM  

Jackson Herring: keylock71: I don't care what they do, honestly. I was raised Catholic, but religion has no bearing on my life these days.

Same, but with four years of Catholic high school.


Which one? Case? Connolly? Sheehan?

I got it from both angles as a kid, myself... Went to mass every week. Catechism. The whole shebang... AND I also attended a Born-Again Christian Middle School.

I think the turning point for me was when one of my fundie teachers asked us to ask our pastor if he would be willing to come and talk the the class. When she found out I was catholic, I was politely and privately told not to ask my parish priest to come in.

Best thing that ever happened to me, honestly... Made me the completely areligious person I am today. : )
 
2013-03-21 07:49:39 AM  

keylock71: Jackson Herring: keylock71: I don't care what they do, honestly. I was raised Catholic, but religion has no bearing on my life these days.

Same, but with four years of Catholic high school.

Which one? Case? Connolly? Sheehan?

I got it from both angles as a kid, myself... Went to mass every week. Catechism. The whole shebang... AND I also attended a Born-Again Christian Middle School.

I think the turning point for me was when one of my fundie teachers asked us to ask our pastor if he would be willing to come and talk the the class. When she found out I was catholic, I was politely and privately told not to ask my parish priest to come in.

Best thing that ever happened to me, honestly... Made me the completely areligious person I am today. : )


Nope other direction, Stang.

Wow, where the hell did you go to a protestant school? That wasn't around here, was it?
 
2013-03-21 07:54:57 AM  

Jackson Herring: Nope other direction, Stang.

Wow, where the hell did you go to a protestant school? That wasn't around here, was it?


Ha. Knew I was forgetting one.

It was called "Christian Day". A small private school located in Fall River and Westport back in the 70s and 80s. Don't think it's around anymore.

You'd be surprised at the number of Protestant bible thumpers here in Fall River... Yeah, Catholics are still the biggest franchise, but there are lots of born-again Portuguese and Brazilian immigrants... and all the WASPs tend to be, you know, WASPy. : )
 
2013-03-21 07:58:41 AM  
Why would  guy in a skirt oppose civil unions?   And those ruby slippers?
 
2013-03-21 08:01:36 AM  
wanted the church to support civil unions as 'the lesser of two evils.

Supporting civil unions only if it's a choice between that or flat out marriage equality?

Hardly enlightened but at least the guy aint a former Hitler youth this time.
 
2013-03-21 08:04:40 AM  
He also supports a dress code based on Liberace's design principles.What does it all mean?
 
2013-03-21 08:07:13 AM  

keylock71: It was called "Christian Day". A small private school located in Fall River and Westport back in the 70s and 80s. Don't think it's around anymore.


Oh yeah I think you've told me about that before. It's weird though, when I was a kid I thought EVERYONE was Catholic.
 
2013-03-21 08:25:06 AM  
Maybe he evolved on the issue.
 
2013-03-21 08:25:41 AM  

MrSplifferton: Who doesn't think that following a book written 2 thousand years ago is a good idea?


Most of it was written a lot older than that

Some of it is younger than that.

It is a history book written by historians.

They teach that people who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it. Except when it comes to the bible.

Because the Bible is bad and you should feel bad reading it

Because you can't learn anything from it
 
2013-03-21 08:26:58 AM  

BitwiseShift: Why would  guy in a skirt oppose civil unions?   And those ruby slippers?


He got rid of the slippers...

oi45.tinypic.com
/apparently shoe fetishism is pretty popular...
 
2013-03-21 08:43:53 AM  
I like to think that reform in the Catholic church is possible, even probable. Most Catholics I've met are pretty open minded. Every Evangelical Christian I've met has been full of hate. I don't have much hope for them.
 
2013-03-21 08:50:49 AM  

Jackson Herring: Oh yeah I think you've told me about that before. It's weird though, when I was a kid I thought EVERYONE was Catholic.


Yeah, it was a shock to me, too. : )

I was a kid, so I didn't really have any concept that certain kinds of Christianity were at odds with other kinds of Christianity. Of course, we learned about the Protestant Reformation and all that, but it didn't really sink in...And why would it, I was a kid.
 
2013-03-21 08:53:48 AM  

shotglasss: JohnnyC: So? He's still a part of a corrupt religious organization that preys on fears and breeds hatred and divisions.

You can substitute the word government in place of religious and get the same result. Both entities are all about separating us from our money and controlling our lives.


Is this what teabaggers actually believe?
 
2013-03-21 08:59:53 AM  

Jackson Herring: keylock71: It was called "Christian Day". A small private school located in Fall River and Westport back in the 70s and 80s. Don't think it's around anymore.

Oh yeah I think you've told me about that before. It's weird though, when I was a kid I thought EVERYONE was Catholic.


Funnily enough, here's the front page story in the Herald News today:

d2om8tvz4lgco4.cloudfront.net

Cross in hand, Southern Baptist preacher asks motorists: 'Are you ready?'
 
2013-03-21 09:04:41 AM  

heavymetal: Two, "better than bad" isn't necessarily "good."


I have a rebuttal from the first letter of Blammo to the Impressionables:

25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-03-21 09:24:40 AM  

Jackson Herring: keylock71: It was called "Christian Day". A small private school located in Fall River and Westport back in the 70s and 80s. Don't think it's around anymore.

Oh yeah I think you've told me about that before. It's weird though, when I was a kid I thought EVERYONE was Catholic.


Funny, just the other day my son came home and asked why aren't Catholics Christian? It seems some Evangelical kids at school were spouting some serious dumb shiate idiocy.
 
2013-03-21 10:29:15 AM  

Fluorescent Testicle: dickfreckle: As always, my suggestion is to remove the state from marriage entirely.

That's also the most retarded solution possible. Between caving in to the bigots (yes, that would be caving in to the bigots) and the massive economical and legal problems that it'd cause... Stop suggesting that. It makes you look stupid.


I have to ask, why is Mr., or Ms. Freckles suggestion stupid? Why is it caving in to bigots? Maybe you've explained these things in detail before, maybe you and Mr., or Ms. Freckle have discussed this in detail in the past. I'm relatively new here, and, at this point, Mr., or Ms. Freckle is looking like the more reasonable of the two of you.

This is an honest question. There's no attack here.

Personally, I thought what I saw in Germany was an awesome way to deal with marriage. The legal and religious parts were totally separate. All of the legal rights were conferred at a small signing ceremony at the court house, any religious stuff was yours to arrange on your own and didn't do jack legally. I would totally support this kind of split.

Thanks for considering my questions.
 
2013-03-21 10:39:50 AM  

The number 7 and the letter Q!: Personally, I thought what I saw in Germany was an awesome way to deal with marriage. The legal and religious parts were totally separate. All of the legal rights were conferred at a small signing ceremony at the court house, any religious stuff was yours to arrange on your own and didn't do jack legally. I would totally support this kind of split.


You read his post backwards; he said remove the state from marriage, not remove religion. What he wants is for marriage to be only a religious thing, and for couples to see no benefits or legal rights from the state. See, there's a subsection of Farkers who have convinced themselves that the tax benefits and whatnot are "Unfair" to single people, and that's where the stupidity comes in. What you're suggesting is fine - ideal, even - but that's not what he meant.
 
2013-03-21 10:43:16 AM  

MrSplifferton: As much as I would like to believe that things will change...This is starting to look more like a clever PR campaing then an actual reforming of the Catholic Church.


The guy's been Pope all of two days.  I mean you're probably right in that little if anything will really change for the better, but I think it's just a tad early to say, 'Fark it.'
 
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