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(Guardian)   Pentagon bans centuries old weapons technology until they can find a contractor willing to charge more for it   (guardian.co.uk ) divider line
    More: Followup, Technological escalation, Great Basin Desert  
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17465 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Mar 2013 at 11:28 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-20 11:32:34 AM  
The writer of the article seems to be confusing the word "ban" with "halting use until the defect that caused the death of 7 people is found."
 
2013-03-20 11:33:27 AM  
Manufacturing defect or poor munitions handling.  Happens.  Lots will inspected, policies will be reviewed and 60mm willing be flying soon enough.
 
2013-03-20 11:33:52 AM  
I've got one they could rent until they sort this whole thing out.  Bit bigger than 60mm, though.  It's 76mm:

i46.tinypic.com
 
2013-03-20 11:34:17 AM  
Er, no subby.

They ceased using the 60mm mortar until they could figure out what caused the failure and if there's a widespread problem. Maybe it's just a bad lot of mortar rounds or tubes, in which case they'll destroy the bad ones and carry on as usual.
 
2013-03-20 11:36:32 AM  
not banned, been said...

also, "The 60mm mortar traditionally requires three to four marines to operate but it is common during training for others to observe nearby."

might want to rethink the safe observation distance. CC monitors are not something new and cost prohibitive for training purposes
 
2013-03-20 11:38:41 AM  
Doesn't the live weapon need to travel a bit before it is armed?
I remember 40mm grenades as having to travel x meters after being fired before they would arm.
 
2013-03-20 11:39:02 AM  
Nice misleading headline, failmitter.

i.imgur.com
 
2013-03-20 11:39:03 AM  
No it does not take 3 or 4 men to operate a 60mm mortar.  One man can do it if he has to.. 2 is the usual..

I don't even think that is a 60mm mortar in the article pic.. looks like an 80 to me though the photo is blurry.
 
2013-03-20 11:40:15 AM  
Banged it on the side of the tube when dropping it in?

Dropped it on a rock?

Got jiggy with it?

Class ring clanked on the bottom?

Put the first one in upside down then dropped the next one in on top of it?

Set the tube up upside down?

Spiked it like a Superbowl touchdown ball?

9 deaths and several wounded. Jeez.
 
2013-03-20 11:42:06 AM  
 
2013-03-20 11:42:11 AM  

dittybopper: I've got one they could rent until they sort this whole thing out.  Bit bigger than 60mm, though.  It's 76mm:

[i46.tinypic.com image 640x480]


Have you loaded that with grape or chain shot? Or silverware?
 
2013-03-20 11:43:54 AM  
I hope it was just an unfortunate accident, that sounds bad but it's better than possible faulty munitions and equipment being overseas in deployments.
 
2013-03-20 11:43:56 AM  
Shouldn't be much of  a problem, the military has tons of 2.36 inch mortars lying around that they can use in the meantime
 
2013-03-20 11:44:19 AM  
Mods let Subby get away with a headline like that?

Despicable
 
2013-03-20 11:44:27 AM  
portforward.com

Someone had some bad training. You're not supposed to hold it in your hand and bang it into stuff.
I don't care what the game says.
 
2013-03-20 11:44:40 AM  
This makes sense.  It's completely possible there's a bad batch of these, so it's prudent to not use any of them until they determine there aren't more defective ones in active use.
 
2013-03-20 11:45:54 AM  

TheShavingofOccam123: dittybopper: I've got one they could rent until they sort this whole thing out.  Bit bigger than 60mm, though.  It's 76mm:

[i46.tinypic.com image 640x480]

Have you loaded that with grape or chain shot? Or silverware?


I've considered loading it up with some .530" round balls that I have laying around.  I haven't done it yet, but rest assured, when I do, I'll talk about it on Fark.
 
2013-03-20 11:46:06 AM  
"The firing tube is a shell some 355mm (14 ins) in length. "

Huh?
 
2013-03-20 11:46:27 AM  
static.guim.co.uk

Looks like ghosts are using the mortar. That's probably the problem.
 
2013-03-20 11:46:35 AM  

Magorn: Shouldn't be much of  a problem, the military has tons of 2.36 inch mortars lying around that they can use in the meantime


Heh.
 
2013-03-20 11:46:39 AM  
That was one of the most misleading and trolltastic headlines to get greenlit in a while.  The 60mm is a very safe weapon.  I've seen guys drop the armed rounds on their nose and nothing has happened.  They're probably just holding it up while they make sure it wasn't a batch of bad rounds, and if it was, how far they've been spread around the Corps.
 
2013-03-20 11:47:15 AM  

dittybopper: TheShavingofOccam123: dittybopper: I've got one they could rent until they sort this whole thing out.  Bit bigger than 60mm, though.  It's 76mm:

[i46.tinypic.com image 640x480]

Have you loaded that with grape or chain shot? Or silverware?

I've considered loading it up with some .530" round balls that I have laying around.  I haven't done it yet, but rest assured, when I do, I'll talk about it on Fark.


Large pumpkin or similar and lots of pics please.

And think about tossing in small smaller balls in there for a sort of "buck and ball" effect.
 
2013-03-20 11:47:19 AM  
And again, a mortar squad is not something that you just dump something on.  It's not a big truck.  It's a series of tubes.  And if you don't understand, those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when you put your round in, it gets in line and it's going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material, enormous amounts of material.
 
2013-03-20 11:52:25 AM  

TheShavingofOccam123: And think about tossing in small smaller balls in there for a sort of "buck and ball" effect.


But that's an ineffective use of a mortar. In ancient times you would use big rocks that had been baked so that they would shatter on impact after you have lobbed them over the walls (I'm talking ballista/onager here, not gunpowder mortar per se) and you need that mass to make it effective. Just dropping a bunch of little balls is going to make people scurry for their umbrellas.
 
2013-03-20 11:55:11 AM  
TheShavingofOccam123:

Set the tube up upside down?

Thought this just sent you into low orbit: http://youtu.be/E_mESOTbEPs
 
2013-03-20 11:56:28 AM  

Old_Chief_Scott: TheShavingofOccam123: And think about tossing in small smaller balls in there for a sort of "buck and ball" effect.

But that's an ineffective use of a mortar. In ancient times you would use big rocks that had been baked so that they would shatter on impact after you have lobbed them over the walls (I'm talking ballista/onager here, not gunpowder mortar per se) and you need that mass to make it effective. Just dropping a bunch of little balls is going to make people scurry for their umbrellas.


You are correct. I was envisioning dropping the angle as low as possible then firing flat out. Not the proper use for a mortar.
 
2013-03-20 11:59:57 AM  
Harry Reid already identified the issue yesterday. The sequestrr caused the explotion.
 
2013-03-20 12:01:40 PM  

TheShavingofOccam123: dittybopper: TheShavingofOccam123: dittybopper: I've got one they could rent until they sort this whole thing out.  Bit bigger than 60mm, though.  It's 76mm:

[i46.tinypic.com image 640x480]

Have you loaded that with grape or chain shot? Or silverware?

I've considered loading it up with some .530" round balls that I have laying around.  I haven't done it yet, but rest assured, when I do, I'll talk about it on Fark.

Large pumpkin or similar and lots of pics please.

And think about tossing in small smaller balls in there for a sort of "buck and ball" effect.


Hell I'd pitch in for a pig carcass or hanging side of beef as the target if there was video
 
2013-03-20 12:02:46 PM  

dittybopper: Magorn: Shouldn't be much of  a problem, the military has tons of 2.36 inch mortars lying around that they can use in the meantime

Heh.


That's just the digital camo.
 
2013-03-20 12:04:02 PM  

dragonchild: And again, a mortar squad is not something that you just dump something on.  It's not a big truck.  It's a series of tubes.


So it's just like the Internet?  Did Al Gore invent mortars, too?
 
2013-03-20 12:05:16 PM  
Another blow of our second amendment rights! Damn you Fartbongo!
 
2013-03-20 12:07:39 PM  

Warthog: dragonchild: And again, a mortar squad is not something that you just dump something on.  It's not a big truck.  It's a series of tubes.

So it's just like the Internet?  Did Al Gore invent mortars, too?


What Al Gore's mortars might look like...

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-03-20 12:08:15 PM  

Dissociater: TheShavingofOccam123:

Set the tube up upside down?

Thought this just sent you into low orbit: http://youtu.be/E_mESOTbEPs


Tough ride.
 
2013-03-20 12:08:19 PM  
depolyed (adjective) 1. To be taken apart at the vertices or molecular level.  2. Characterized by being misled into conflicts overseas.
Example:  That dude is going to get depolyed overseas by an IED.
 
2013-03-20 12:14:05 PM  

Old_Chief_Scott: TheShavingofOccam123: And think about tossing in small smaller balls in there for a sort of "buck and ball" effect.

But that's an ineffective use of a mortar. In ancient times you would use big rocks that had been baked so that they would shatter on impact after you have lobbed them over the walls (I'm talking ballista/onager here, not gunpowder mortar per se) and you need that mass to make it effective. Just dropping a bunch of little balls is going to make people scurry for their umbrellas.


Yes, if you employ it as a mortar.

Lower the barrel, though, and you have the functional equivalent of a howitzer.  In fact, the only real difference between a traditional howitzer barrel and a mortar barrel is where the trunnions are placed.
 
2013-03-20 12:17:23 PM  
Never place two in the tube at the same time.
 
2013-03-20 12:23:25 PM  

Quantum Apostrophe: [static.guim.co.uk image 460x276]

Looks like ghosts are using the mortar. That's probably the problem.



Came to say similar.


/Great mimes
 
2013-03-20 12:27:23 PM  

highendmighty: Never place two in the tube at the same time.


wisdom, this.

vudukungfu: Doesn't the live weapon need to travel a bit before it is armed?
I remember 40mm grenades as having to travel x meters after being fired before they would arm.


depends on the fuse but they need to be armed by the propellant charge triggering, as i recall, and yes, there's spin arming on a lot of them. probably a defective fuse, or bad round. it's not unknown. maybe it was an old round? it happens, and old explosives get... sensitive.
 
2013-03-20 12:29:22 PM  
At least subby didn't blame the incident on the sequester, like Harry Reid did.
 
2013-03-20 12:34:38 PM  

dragonchild: And again, a mortar squad is not something that you just dump something on.  It's not a big truck.  It's a series of tubes.  And if you don't understand, those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when you put your round in, it gets in line and it's going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material, enormous amounts of material.


Thank you, Senator Stevens.
 
2013-03-20 12:41:21 PM  

Old_Chief_Scott: Just dropping a bunch of little balls is going to make people scurry for their umbrellas.


Consider this:  A .530" lead ball is going to have a weight of (whips out virtual slide rule*) around 225 grains.

I know the mortar has a range of about 300 yards with my very un-aerodynamic projectiles, essentially, tin cans half-full of cement that weigh 1 lb (or 7000 grains).

So, I should be able to fit about 31 balls of roughly .53 caliber and get roughly the same velocity, which I've calculated to be something in the neighborhood of around 300 fps, based upon measured range**.

Being dense metal spheres, and because we aren't talking supersonic velocities here, they'll come down with roughly the same velocity.  Terminal energy would be (goes back to slide rule) something like 46 ft/lbs, or about the same as a .22 short out of a handgun.

I wouldn't want to get hit with one, quite frankly.


*To figure the weight in grains of a pure lead ball of X inches in diameter, set 188 on the C scale of the slide to the index on the D scale.  Set the cursor on the diameter of the ball on the C scale, and read the weight in grains off of the K scale.

**Nobody seems willing to let me borrow their chronograph to actually measure it.
 
2013-03-20 12:44:12 PM  
Subtard:  They're not banned.

This is routine in any peace time military death; everything of that type is put on hold until they identify the root cause.
 
2013-03-20 12:48:53 PM  

devildog123: That was one of the most misleading and trolltastic headlines to get greenlit in a while.  The 60mm is a very safe weapon.  I've seen guys drop the armed rounds on their nose and nothing has happened.  They're probably just holding it up while they make sure it wasn't a batch of bad rounds, and if it was, how far they've been spread around the Corps.


Yep.  When I was in Iraq, some other unit had a catastrophic malfunction with their M203, where the 40mm round detonated in the tube, killing the grenadier.  A bunch of armorer dudes came in, had all of our M203 guys turn in their rounds, and a few days later, they came back and re-issued fresh rounds from an entirely different batch.
 
2013-03-20 12:50:41 PM  
Well it's more original that the usual "killed in helicopter crash" they use whenever a black-ops team goes FUBAR.
 
2013-03-20 01:33:39 PM  
Fun facts: The protocol for a misfire (round doesn't fire after being dropped) on a mortar system is to have everyone run away and wait.  If nothing happens, someone has to come up to the mortar and kick the tube.  This is not a joke.
 
2013-03-20 01:54:41 PM  

mrlewish: No it does not take 3 or 4 men to operate a 60mm mortar.  One man can do it if he has to.. 2 is the usual..

I don't even think that is a 60mm mortar in the article pic.. looks like an 80 to me though the photo is blurry.


One man on the radio, one to adjust the aim, one to pass the round from the stockpile to the gunner and one to drop it in the morter. Yes at a pinch one man could do it but with four you get a much quicker rate of fire and redundancy.
 
2013-03-20 01:58:23 PM  

Sidereal: someone has to come up to the mortar and kick the tube.


Wouldn't a shoe on the end of a long stick be useful here? I demand lots of money to study this.
 
2013-03-20 02:11:46 PM  
Yes, kicking a mortar tube is the actual way to approach a misfire situation.  I want to know why they showed a picture of people manning an 81mm mortar though, as opposed to just showing a picture of an actual 60mm mortar.  Also, four people manning a mortar system will have the most efficiency.  The Gunner, the A-Gunner, Ammo Man, and Team Leader, but I always preferred to have three people only per gun, it is less crowded that way.
 
2013-03-20 02:33:41 PM  
New Contract Award:
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-03-20 02:54:33 PM  

buttery_shame_cave: maybe it was an old round? it happens, and old explosives get... sensitive.


Then they probably shouldn't be farking with them.
Anyone with an ounce of brains. . . OH, wait.
These were Marines.
 
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