If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(TruthDig)   The Last Letter: A Message to George W. Bush and Dick Cheney From a Dying Veteran   (truthdig.com) divider line 880
    More: Hero, George W. Bush, Sadr, selfishness, Iraq War, veterans  
•       •       •

27237 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Mar 2013 at 12:24 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



880 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread
 
2013-03-20 12:19:35 AM
Damn.
 
2013-03-20 12:24:54 AM
And Dick Cheney will never care.
 
2013-03-20 12:26:50 AM
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
 
2013-03-20 12:27:36 AM

lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."


And will be for your own good.
 
2013-03-20 12:27:45 AM
It makes me weep to say this, but over in two.
 
2013-03-20 12:28:33 AM
Meh.  Liberal plant.  Not a real American.
 
2013-03-20 12:29:08 AM
You know what makes me weep? How everyone OTHER than those two get a complete pass.

/lookin at you congress
 
2013-03-20 12:29:31 AM
If you think the people responsible for war care about the people fighting war, you don't yet understand the true nature of war.
 
2013-03-20 12:30:09 AM
Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good?
Will it buy you salvation?
Do you think that it could?
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you've made
Will never buy back your soul.
 
2013-03-20 12:30:33 AM
Well done, my man. I will never forget you.
 
2013-03-20 12:30:48 AM

El_Swino: Meh.  Liberal plant.  Not a real American.


I'm sure someone from the Freeper brigade will also dismiss the guy because he's not a Christian.

/or perhaps the Buddha is just for decoration
 
2013-03-20 12:30:57 AM
Dayumn.
 
2013-03-20 12:31:00 AM
Wow.  Well said, soldier.
 
2013-03-20 12:31:24 AM
Does the president or congress declare war?
 
2013-03-20 12:31:27 AM
Well it's a good thing Obama decided not to investigate their roles in possible war crimes, or else the Republicans would've blocked all of his legislative agendas for the last five years.
 
2013-03-20 12:32:19 AM
Like ANYONE cares.

This is the world in which we live:  Billionaire psychopaths send everyone but their kids into slavery or war - solely to increase their own wealth - and no one cares.

Yay!  {8/
 
2013-03-20 12:32:24 AM
armedrobbery.files.wordpress.com

You farked up - you trusted us!
 
2013-03-20 12:32:42 AM
As a vet who served before this debacle, and was against this war based on lies, I salute you soldier.

/not that Dick and Bush really give two farks to the wind what you think
 
2013-03-20 12:33:06 AM

Bamboozler: Does the president or congress declare war?


Pffft, nobody declares war anymore.  It's so 1941.
 
2013-03-20 12:33:08 AM

Triumph: [armedrobbery.files.wordpress.com image 675x450]

You farked up - you trusted us!


^win.
 
2013-03-20 12:33:11 AM
I feel sorry for all that joined the armed forces because of the 11 Sept 01 attacks; they truly got the short end of the stick.

/so glad DADT kept the notion from ever crossing my mind.
 
2013-03-20 12:33:11 AM
Traitors are heroes?
 
2013-03-20 12:33:11 AM
Why does he hate our freedoms?
 
2013-03-20 12:33:34 AM
.
 
2013-03-20 12:34:30 AM
God will sort this all out.
 
2013-03-20 12:34:39 AM
Well, sir, I can honestly say I am sorry, to you, for ever having defended the war.
 
2013-03-20 12:34:44 AM
I think George Bush is already pretty much broken.  They say he stays inside all day and paints pictures of himself.
 
2013-03-20 12:34:49 AM

Yogimus: You know what makes me weep? How everyone OTHER than those two get a complete pass.

/lookin at you congress


Those two got a complete pass. Criticism is not prosecution. Obama is going to get a pass too. There is something about the collective American psyche that would rather see our homegrown war criminals go free than admit to ourselves that Americans are capable of committing war crimes.
 
2013-03-20 12:34:53 AM

Bamboozler: Does the president or congress declare war?


You mean in the case of the Iraq "war"?

No one. It's "kinetic action".
 
2013-03-20 12:35:20 AM

lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."


And yet as a Christian and a Democrat, I never supported Dubya, Dick or the GOP to the point I've lost family and friends over this issue. Bush 2 Administration bore false witness to wage war.
That is not a Christian value. Oh well, I'm sure someone will knee jerk post this Sinclair Lewis quote inaccurately once again.
 
2013-03-20 12:35:36 AM

lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."


Too late.  It came in the form of "hope and change."
 
2013-03-20 12:36:14 AM

Yogimus: You know what makes me weep? How everyone OTHER than those two get a complete pass.

/lookin at you congress


We'll never know what Cheney's Intel Unit was telling those guys behind the scenes. I distinctly remember one congressman saying Cheney's people told him Saddam had drones that could reach the east coast with nerve gas. Total BS, but scary. They wanted war, they got it, and they killed anybody who got in their way.

I've looked for that article since and it's pretty much gone down the memory hole like so much other stuff.

Still, they should have know they were liars. I could tell and I'm nobody.
 
2013-03-20 12:36:32 AM
So, he doesn't know about the 100+ Democrats who voted for the authorization to use force in Iraq?
 
2013-03-20 12:37:02 AM
I would not be writing this letter if I had been wounded fighting in Afghanistan against those forces that carried out the attacks of 9/11. Had I been wounded there I would still be miserable because of my physical deterioration and imminent death, but I would at least have the comfort of knowing that my injuries were a consequence of my own decision to defend the country I love.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.  You chose to be part of a war machine?

Yours is not to reason why, yours is but to do and die.
 
2013-03-20 12:37:13 AM
Since this is fark:


Tune in tomorrow for Rush Limbaugh Resurrects "Phony Soldiers" thread.

/sigh
 
2013-03-20 12:37:15 AM
I won't vote for them
 
2013-03-20 12:38:03 AM

Yogimus: You know what makes me weep? How everyone OTHER than those two get a complete pass.

/lookin at you congress


...and the vast majority of the citizens.
 
2013-03-20 12:38:46 AM
why does he hate 'Murica?
 
2013-03-20 12:39:27 AM

djh0101010: So, he doesn't know about the 100+ Democrats who voted for the authorization to use force in Iraq?


Um, you mean 82.  He doesn't mention the 215 Republicans who voted for it either.
 
2013-03-20 12:39:31 AM

grxymkjbn: Like ANYONE cares.

This is the world in which we live:  Billionaire psychopaths send everyone but their kids into slavery or war - solely to increase their own wealth - and no one cares.

Yay!  {8/


it's not that nobody cares, everyone cares about it, but we can't figure out what to do about it. sure, there's always the second amendment solution, but there's got to be a more peaceful, more permanent way to solve it or we are no better than mindless animals.
 
2013-03-20 12:40:09 AM

grxymkjbn: This is the world in which we live:


2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-03-20 12:40:47 AM
Also, a reminder, lots of prominent Democrats talked about Iraq's WMDs, many before Bush was elected.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wm dquotes.asp

Lots of bad came of this but it was hardly one-sided.
 
2013-03-20 12:41:01 AM
I can agree with him, but my father, an 82 year old Korean war vet, who has been on the verge of death for the last 10 years, the VA has been incredible, from his mobility scooter, the ramp they built on my parents back porch, to the lift the put on my parents stairs.  And he spends at least 1 week a month in the VA getting treated for UTIs, and the nurses and rehab specialists they send to the house, not too mention the meds, the catheters and the diapers, and when he goes there at least twice a month in an ambulance, they do a spot on job.
 
2013-03-20 12:41:03 AM

Thunderpipes: Traitors are heroes?


So being wounded in Bush/Cheney's cash grab for Haliburton makes you a traitor?

You really are one of the worst excuses for a "human" on the internet. I don't even care that I'm falling for your troll. You are a piece of shiat. I would throw away the shoe that stepped on your steaming, parasite filled steaming pile.
 
2013-03-20 12:41:06 AM
Congress may have been misled by the bad intel.. but they should have known better.  When they voted to authorized Bush to use force(something they said was just a formality, to show Saddam we were serious), I was doing my best impression of Admiral Ackbar.
 
2013-03-20 12:41:22 AM
www.freedomsphoenix.com

upload.wikimedia.org

www.colourbox.com
 
2013-03-20 12:41:24 AM
May his passing be quick and with dignity. And that he live his last days with peace of mind.
 
2013-03-20 12:41:45 AM
That's so depressing.
May he eventually rest in peace.

Our nation has learned very little, sadly.
We re-elected those monsters and it took until what, 2011 for most people (conservatives eventually) to be against Iraq instead of for it?
 
2013-03-20 12:42:13 AM

Yogimus: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

And will be for your own good.


And they will start by banning large, sugary drinks, for your own good.
 
2013-03-20 12:42:13 AM
Drone strikes are awesome. You lost rethuglicans. Get uses to it.
 
2013-03-20 12:42:42 AM

Dr.Zom: Yogimus: You know what makes me weep? How everyone OTHER than those two get a complete pass.

/lookin at you congress

We'll never know what Cheney's Intel Unit was telling those guys behind the scenes. I distinctly remember one congressman saying Cheney's people told him Saddam had drones that could reach the east coast with nerve gas. Total BS, but scary. They wanted war, they got it, and they killed anybody who got in their way.

I've looked for that article since and it's pretty much gone down the memory hole like so much other stuff.

Still, they should have know they were liars. I could tell and I'm nobody.


Before we get too carried away here,  please remember that there WERE nerve agents in Iraq, which was the whole issue behind the whole U.N. inspection teams finding the storage areas unsealed after they secured them.  Furthermore, the military has been steadily disposing those stockpiles since the war began.
 
2013-03-20 12:43:08 AM

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: I think George Bush is already pretty much broken.  They say he stays inside all day and paints pictures of himself.


I sincerely hope so. fark that guy.
 
2013-03-20 12:43:21 AM

Fart_Machine: djh0101010: So, he doesn't know about the 100+ Democrats who voted for the authorization to use force in Iraq?

Um, you mean 82.  He doesn't mention the 215 Republicans who voted for it either.


Why does this matter?

A majority of Americans were pro-war after 9/11.

A majority of American politicians were pro-war after 9/11.
 
2013-03-20 12:43:22 AM
Gee. A letter damning GWB and Cheney. Who coulda seen this coming. And from an outfit called TruthDig.

What did this guy think was going to happen? Tiddlywinks and ticker tape parades? Qar is hell and if you sign up to be a soldier, you are probably going to see the Hell.

A tug on the heart-strings moment means no one criticizes, but the issue of taking America into war deserves a lot more seriousness than a letter from a veteran, whose opinion is at odds with so many other veterans.
 
2013-03-20 12:43:23 AM
It's a shame that the country has forgotten that dissent is one of the higher forms of patriotism.  Informed dissent is even better.
 
2013-03-20 12:43:29 AM

Mentat: And Dick Cheney will never care.


And nobody will ever read it to George W.

/quoth the fredbox
 
2013-03-20 12:43:44 AM

Kurmudgeon: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

And yet as a Christian and a Democrat, I never supported Dubya, Dick or the GOP to the point I've lost family and friends over this issue. Bush 2 Administration bore false witness to wage war.
That is not a Christian value. Oh well, I'm sure someone will knee jerk post this Sinclair Lewis quote inaccurately once again.


It isn't a reflection on Christians. It's a reflection on Fascism. Fascist rhetoric appeals folk legends in order to beguile. In the U.S., one of the principle folklores which demonstrably galvanizes vast portions of the population is Evangelical Christianity. This doesn't belittle the individual Christian or even Christianity itself. It simply warns that they will try to use your own beliefs against you. It's how they operate.
 
2013-03-20 12:43:45 AM
justifiedright.typepad.com
 
2013-03-20 12:43:52 AM

Bamboozler: Does the president or congress declare war?


I felt like trolling and saying "the Knesset", but I really don't feel like joking this time. So I'll just leave this here:

"All this was inspired by the principle--which is quite true within itself--that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying."

scrapetv.com
 
2013-03-20 12:43:53 AM
The Iraq War was a  Republican war.

It was a partisan war.


None of the Democrats who got strong-armed into cowardly going along with it actually wanted it.

It was  wanted by Republicans.
It was  desired by Republicans.
It was  designed by Republicans.
It was  promoted by Republicans.
It was implemented by Republicans.
 
2013-03-20 12:44:30 AM
Well Obama hasn't ended the war yet so Vote Republican!
 
2013-03-20 12:44:49 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: And nobody will ever read it to George W.


Heh! When you're not wrong, you're right.
 
2013-03-20 12:45:02 AM

Kurmudgeon: Bush 2 Administration bore false witness to wage war.


"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." -- From a letter signed by Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, & John Kerry among others on October 9, 1998

"This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer- range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." -- From a December 6, 2001 letter signed by Bob Graham, Joe Lieberman, Harold Ford, & Tom Lantos among others

"Whereas Iraq has consistently breached its cease-fire agreement between Iraq and the United States, entered into on March 3, 1991, by failing to dismantle its weapons of mass destruction program, and refusing to permit monitoring and verification by United Nations inspections; Whereas Iraq has developed weapons of mass destruction, including chemical and biological capabilities, and has made positive progress toward developing nuclear weapons capabilities" -- From a joint resolution submitted by Tom Harkin and Arlen Specter on July 18, 2002

"Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." -- Madeline Albright, 1998

"(Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and some day, some way, I am certain he will use that arsenal again, as he has 10 times since 1983" -- National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998

"Iraq made commitments after the Gulf War to completely dismantle all weapons of mass destruction, and unfortunately, Iraq has not lived up to its agreement." -- Barbara Boxer, November 8, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capability. Intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not yet achieved nuclear capability." -- Robert Byrd, October 2002

"There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat... Yes, he has chemical and biological weapons. He's had those for a long time. But the United States right now is on a very much different defensive posture than we were before September 11th of 2001... He is, as far as we know, actively pursuing nuclear capabilities, though he doesn't have nuclear warheads yet. If he were to acquire nuclear weapons, I think our friends in the region would face greatly increased risks as would we." -- Wesley Clark on September 26, 2002

"What is at stake is how to answer the potential threat Iraq represents with the risk of proliferation of WMD. Baghdad's regime did use such weapons in the past. Today, a number of evidences may lead to think that, over the past four years, in the absence of international inspectors, this country has continued armament programs." -- Jacques Chirac, October 16, 2002

"The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

"I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

"Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people." -- Tom Daschle in 1998

"Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has already used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

"The debate over Iraq is not about politics. It is about national security. It should be clear that our national security requires Congress to send a clear message to Iraq and the world: America is united in its determination to eliminate forever the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

"I share the administration's goals in dealing with Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction." -- Dick Gephardt in September of 2002

"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." -- Bob Graham, December 2002

"Saddam Hussein is not the only deranged dictator who is willing to deprive his people in order to acquire weapons of mass destruction." -- Jim Jeffords, October 8, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Ted Kennedy, September 27, 2002

"There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein's regime is a serious danger, that he is a tyrant, and that his pursuit of lethal weapons of mass destruction cannot be tolerated. He must be disarmed." -- Ted Kennedy, Sept 27, 2002

"I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force - if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- John F. Kerry, Oct 2002

"The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but as I said, it is not new. It has been with us since the end of that war, and particularly in the last 4 years we know after Operation Desert Fox failed to force him to reaccept them, that he has continued to build those weapons. He has had a free hand for 4 years to reconstitute these weapons, allowing the world, during the interval, to lose the focus we had on weapons of mass destruction and the issue of proliferation." -- John Kerry, October 9, 2002

"(W)e need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. ...And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War." -- John Kerry, Jan 23, 2003

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandates of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." -- Carl Levin, Sept 19, 2002

"Every day Saddam remains in power with chemical weapons, biological weapons, and the development of nuclear weapons is a day of danger for the United States." -- Joe Lieberman, August, 2002

"Over the years, Iraq has worked to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. During 1991 - 1994, despite Iraq's denials, U.N. inspectors discovered and dismantled a large network of nuclear facilities that Iraq was using to develop nuclear weapons. Various reports indicate that Iraq is still actively pursuing nuclear weapons capability. There is no reason to think otherwise. Beyond nuclear weapons, Iraq has actively pursued biological and chemical weapons.U.N. inspectors have said that Iraq's claims about biological weapons is neither credible nor verifiable. In 1986, Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran, and later, against its own Kurdish population. While weapons inspections have been successful in the past, there have been no inspections since the end of 1998. There can be no doubt that Iraq has continued to pursue its goal of obtaining weapons of mass destruction." -- Patty Murray, October 9, 2002

"As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -- Nancy Pelosi, December 16, 1998

"Even today, Iraq is not nearly disarmed. Based on highly credible intelligence, UNSCOM [the U.N. weapons inspectors] suspects that Iraq still has biological agents like anthrax, botulinum toxin, and clostridium perfringens in sufficient quantity to fill several dozen bombs and ballistic missile warheads, as well as the means to continue manufacturing these deadly agents. Iraq probably retains several tons of the highly toxic VX substance, as well as sarin nerve gas and mustard gas. This agent is stored in artillery shells, bombs, and ballistic missile warheads. And Iraq retains significant dual-use industrial infrastructure that can be used to rapidly reconstitute large-scale chemical weapons production." -- Ex-Un Weapons Inspector Scott Ritter in 1998

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. And that may happen sooner if he can obtain access to enriched uranium from foreign sources -- something that is not that difficult in the current world. We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002

"Saddam's existing biological and chemical weapons capabilities pose a very real threat to America, now. Saddam has used chemical weapons before, both against Iraq's enemies and against his own people. He is working to develop delivery systems like missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles that could bring these deadly weapons against U.S. forces and U.S. facilities in the Middle East." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002

"Whether one agrees or disagrees with the Administration's policy towards Iraq, I don't think there can be any question about Saddam's conduct. He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do. He lies and cheats; he snubs the mandate and authority of international weapons inspectors; and he games the system to keep buying time against enforcement of the just and legitimate demands of the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States and our allies. Those are simply the facts." -- Henry Waxman, Oct 10, 2002


I'm sorry, who was it that bore false witness?
 
2013-03-20 12:45:02 AM
I'm sure writing a letter to people who haven't been in power for four years will get you very far. Bush the younger totally started the war in iraq with absolutely no help from congress or any other member of government.
 
2013-03-20 12:45:06 AM

Thunderpipes: Traitors are heroes?


No. Bush and Cheney are not heroes.
 
2013-03-20 12:45:27 AM

Yogimus: Before we get too carried away here...[Yogimus gets carried away]


Wat
 
2013-03-20 12:46:03 AM

Corn_Fed: The Iraq War was a  Republican war.

It was a partisan war.


None of the Democrats who got strong-armed into cowardly going along with it actually wanted it.

It was  wanted by Republicans.
It was  desired by Republicans.
It was  designed by Republicans.
It was  promoted by Republicans.
It was implemented by Republicans.


I can respect a villain, not so much the coward.
 
2013-03-20 12:46:22 AM

Corn_Fed: The Iraq War was a  Republican war.

It was a partisan war.


None of the Democrats who got strong-armed into cowardly going along with it actually wanted it.

It was  wanted by Republicans.
It was  desired by Republicans.
It was  designed by Republicans.
It was  promoted by Republicans.
It was implemented by Republicans.


Oh dos wascawwy wepubwicans!
 
2013-03-20 12:46:24 AM

Yogimus: Before we get too carried away here, please remember that there WERE nerve agents in Iraq, which was the whole issue behind the whole U.N. inspection teams finding the storage areas unsealed after they secured them. Furthermore, the military has been steadily disposing those stockpiles since the war began.


farm5.staticflickr.com
 
TWX
2013-03-20 12:46:54 AM

lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."


Lewis, Sinclair. It Can't Happen Here. 1935.

Good book. In my opinion it should be required reading in high school English classes.
 
2013-03-20 12:47:09 AM

Bamboozler: Does the president or congress declare war?


I think that the notion of a "Declaration of War" is even more quaint and costume-drama twee as a Card gravely sent to an Honourable Acquaintance begging he shall consent to act as a Second in a most Honourable duel, to be held on grounds to be decided by said Seconds according to the immemorial customs of the Service.

That in no way bears on the wisdom of the Framers in separating the Capability of waging war, from the People's represented Consent to so commence.

/F*ck the 108th Congress, man and woman.
 
2013-03-20 12:47:37 AM

lolpix: Kurmudgeon: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

And yet as a Christian and a Democrat, I never supported Dubya, Dick or the GOP to the point I've lost family and friends over this issue. Bush 2 Administration bore false witness to wage war.
That is not a Christian value. Oh well, I'm sure someone will knee jerk post this Sinclair Lewis quote inaccurately once again.

It isn't a reflection on Christians. It's a reflection on Fascism. Fascist rhetoric appeals folk legends in order to beguile. In the U.S., one of the principle folklores which demonstrably galvanizes vast portions of the population is Evangelical Christianity. This doesn't belittle the individual Christian or even Christianity itself. It simply warns that they will try to use your own beliefs against you. It's how they operate.


Let's not get carried away.  Both parties practice corporate fascism pretty openly
 
2013-03-20 12:47:42 AM

Fuggin Bizzy: Yogimus: Before we get too carried away here...[Yogimus gets carried away]

Wat


The issue wasn't that the was weapons or not, but whether he was pulling from existing stockpiles.
 
2013-03-20 12:48:05 AM

Corn_Fed: None of the Democrats who got strong-armed into cowardly going along with it actually wanted it.


Then they shouldn't have rubber stamped it. Nelson Mandela was jailed 27 years for standing up for what he thought was right. What would have happened to a congressman? At worst he might lose an election and have to go back to practicing law in the private sector.
 
2013-03-20 12:48:10 AM
You can try to make it sound like I'm saying BSABSVR all you want, but both sides DID get us into that mess. One who spearheaded it and the other who went right along with it.

No charges to bankers, to war criminals, but we'll go after pot smokers. Oh, and moar drones. And more militarization of local police for your own good, citizen.

fark both parties, don't ever vote for a Republican or Democrat for the rest of your life. At least live with the peace of mind that you are not voluntarily going along with this bullshiat any longer.
 
2013-03-20 12:48:11 AM

GORDON: [Wall 'o Quotes]

I'm sorry, who was it that bore false witness?


Next time, just type "BSABSVR." It'll make the same point.

/Not calling out any particular FARKer...
 
2013-03-20 12:48:26 AM

Corn_Fed: None of the Democrats who got strong-armed into cowardly going along with it actually wanted it.


How were they strong armed into it?

Unless you mean strong armed by their constituants, who wanted war.

But that's normal.  We call it Democracy.

You can blame a political party, I blame the American people who, like this soldier, wanted war.
 
2013-03-20 12:49:04 AM

bhcompy: lolpix: Kurmudgeon: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

And yet as a Christian and a Democrat, I never supported Dubya, Dick or the GOP to the point I've lost family and friends over this issue. Bush 2 Administration bore false witness to wage war.
That is not a Christian value. Oh well, I'm sure someone will knee jerk post this Sinclair Lewis quote inaccurately once again.

It isn't a reflection on Christians. It's a reflection on Fascism. Fascist rhetoric appeals folk legends in order to beguile. In the U.S., one of the principle folklores which demonstrably galvanizes vast portions of the population is Evangelical Christianity. This doesn't belittle the individual Christian or even Christianity itself. It simply warns that they will try to use your own beliefs against you. It's how they operate.

Let's not get carried away.  Both parties practice corporate fascism pretty openly


I never mentioned a party.
 
2013-03-20 12:49:08 AM

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: I think George Bush is already pretty much broken.  They say he stays inside all day and paints pictures of himself.


I'll be satisfied when I can piss on his grave.
 
2013-03-20 12:49:25 AM

Yogimus: I can respect a villain, not so much the coward.


Good, you must have much more respect for John Kerry, Max Cleland and others who served than Bush who got nowhere near Vietnam and Cheney who had "other priorities".
 
2013-03-20 12:49:33 AM

bhcompy: Let's not get carried away.  Both parties practice corporate fascism pretty openly


This
i6.photobucket.com
Bears repeating.
 
2013-03-20 12:49:38 AM

muck4doo: Corn_Fed: The Iraq War was a  Republican war.

It was a partisan war.


None of the Democrats who got strong-armed into cowardly going along with it actually wanted it.

It was  wanted by Republicans.
It was  desired by Republicans.
It was  designed by Republicans.
It was  promoted by Republicans.
It was implemented by Republicans.


Voted yes by Democrats. Teeehehheee
 
2013-03-20 12:49:44 AM

Corn_Fed: The Iraq War was a  Republican war.

It was a partisan war.


None of the Democrats who got strong-armed into cowardly going along with it actually wanted it.

It was  wanted by Republicans.
It was  desired by Republicans.
It was  designed by Republicans.
It was  promoted by Republicans.
It was implemented by Republicans.


And way too late, they realized it was the Death of the Moderate Republican Party.
 
2013-03-20 12:50:18 AM

God-is-a-Taco: That's so depressing.
May he eventually rest in peace.

Our nation has learned very little, sadly.
We re-elected those monsters and it took until what, 2011 for most people (conservatives eventually) to be against Iraq instead of for it?


Something tells me that "conservative" anti-war sentiment gained a good bit of momentum on January 20, 2009.
 
2013-03-20 12:50:18 AM
www.slate.com
 
2013-03-20 12:50:19 AM

Corn_Fed: The Iraq War was a  Republican war.

It was a partisan war.


None of the Democrats who got strong-armed into cowardly going along with it actually wanted it.

It was  wanted by Republicans.
It was  desired by Republicans.
It was  designed by Republicans.
It was  promoted by Republicans.
It was implemented by Republicans.


I'm sure somebody held a gun to the 85 Democrats that voted in favor of OIL (operation Iraqi liberation)
 
2013-03-20 12:50:32 AM
tl;dr
 
2013-03-20 12:50:46 AM
How long did he spend in Manchuria?
 
2013-03-20 12:50:50 AM
So many of you commenting have never seen Iraq, nor understand anything there, It's a bit sad really.
 
2013-03-20 12:51:07 AM
well said sir, and peace be with you.

more than 10,000 die in drunk driving accidents in the US every single year. something we can do something about.
millions of kids in america go to bed hungry every single day. volunteered lately?
 
2013-03-20 12:51:08 AM

sendtodave: Corn_Fed: None of the Democrats who got strong-armed into cowardly going along with it actually wanted it.

How were they strong armed into it?

Unless you mean strong armed by their constituants, who wanted war.

But that's normal.  We call it Democracy.

You can blame a political party, I blame the American people who, like this soldier, wanted war.


The "American People" you claim "wanted the Iraq war" didn't, sorry.

We were kind of on board with Afghanistan and Taliban destroying. But Pretty much the entire farking universe knew Iraq was a traitorous cash grab.

You act like the general populace has power and a voice. Sorry, THAT is the most laughable thought in the thread so far.
 
2013-03-20 12:51:36 AM

grxymkjbn: Like ANYONE cares.

This is the world in which we live:  Billionaire psychopaths send everyone but their kids into slavery or war - solely to increase their own wealth - and no one cares.

Yay!  {8/


This man volunteered, this was not a draft. Repeatedly he shows in the letter he is unwilling/unable to accept that he alone is responsible for his own actions. I in no way defend Bush, Cheney or any other scumbag politician or Daddy Warbucks factory owning family.
 
2013-03-20 12:51:46 AM

neongoats: Thunderpipes: Traitors are heroes?

So being wounded in Bush/Cheney's cash grab for Haliburton makes you a traitor?

You really are one of the worst excuses for a "human" on the internet. I don't even care that I'm falling for your troll. You are a piece of shiat. I would throw away the shoe that stepped on your steaming, parasite filled steaming pile.


Thunderpipes is a (getting-to-be-well-known) troll. Ignore it.
 
2013-03-20 12:51:58 AM
In all honesty, when Dick Cheney dies, if he isn't some kind of evil monster for real, I hope they donate his body to science because I really want to know what the fark is wrong with him. Is a part of his brain just dead?
 
2013-03-20 12:52:05 AM

Kurmudgeon: Yogimus: I can respect a villain, not so much the coward.

Good, you must have much more respect for John Kerry, Max Cleland and others who served than Bush who got nowhere near Vietnam and Cheney who had "other priorities".


The reason I have little respect for Kerry is because he put himself in for medals instead of his men. I can't respect that manner of self promotion.
 
2013-03-20 12:52:18 AM

flamingboard: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: I think George Bush is already pretty much broken.  They say he stays inside all day and paints pictures of himself.

I'll be satisfied when I can piss on his grave.



Get in line.
I'd like to get in a bunch of George Bush heads ala Game of Thrones and stick them on pikes all along the main road heading into town.
 
2013-03-20 12:52:29 AM
Since WW2, the United States of America have slaughtered more civilians than were killed in the holocaust. fark the USA.
 
2013-03-20 12:52:39 AM

lolpix: It isn't a reflection on Christians. It's a reflection on Fascism. Fascist rhetoric appeals folk legends in order to beguile. In the U.S., one of the principle folklores which demonstrably galvanizes vast portions of the population is Evangelical Christianity. This doesn't belittle the individual Christian or even Christianity itself. It simply warns that they will try to use your own beliefs against you. It's how they operate.


If only a majority held your belief. I've seen it much more often used as a weapon against faith than as a lesson not to support fascists....sadly.
 
2013-03-20 12:53:16 AM

neongoats: The "American People" you claim "wanted the Iraq war" didn't, sorry.

We were kind of on board with Afghanistan and Taliban destroying. But Pretty much the entire farking universe knew Iraq was a traitorous cash grab.

You act like the general populace has power and a voice. Sorry, THAT is the most laughable thought in the thread so far.


This is worth repeating. We can argue our favorite political side all we want. Ultimately, it's the 99% that get farked over.
 
2013-03-20 12:53:18 AM

Spanky_McFarksalot: why does he hate 'Murica?


Because he ain't no fortunate son.
 
2013-03-20 12:53:51 AM

GORDON: I'm sorry, who was it that bore false witness?


You realize that many of those quotes are truncated, offer no context, or were made prior to Operation Desert Fox right?
 
2013-03-20 12:54:09 AM
Okay, This is what you Republican trolls will never get. You hate the lesser peoples. Democrats take care of lesser peoples.
 
2013-03-20 12:54:22 AM

sendtodave: Corn_Fed: None of the Democrats who got strong-armed into cowardly going along with it actually wanted it.

How were they strong armed into it?

Unless you mean strong armed by their constituants, who wanted war.

But that's normal.  We call it Democracy.

You can blame a political party, I blame the American people who, like this soldier, wanted war.


Which war did they want? The one promoted by the Republicans.

Iraq was not on the minds of Americans in 2002. Afghanistan was. Then, in September of 2002, the Bush Republicans began mentioning hints of Iraq, slowly building/selling it.  They sold it to the American public.

Look, the Democrats were spineless cowards. But there IS a difference between hatching a plan, and being duped by the hatched plan.

This was a  Republcan, partisan war.
 
2013-03-20 12:55:36 AM
Ok, this WMD stuff is straight up ridiculous.

Hussein had some funky shiat, he gassed the Kurds in Halabja in March of 1988.  He killed 182,000 in Al-Anfal from '86-'89, some of that from Chemical attacks.

Were they WMD's in iraq in 2003?  Probably.  Were they in the area's the Government painted as WMD silos, plants, etc.  Clearly not.

Much like the spider hole that dirty bastard was pulled from, I'm fairly sure there are some chemical weapons buried somewhere in Iraq to this day.

Either way, Bush 1.0 should have stayed in Iraq initially, fought through to Baghdad, and killed or captured Hussein.  Bush 2.0 always seemed to be trying to finish daddy's work.
 
2013-03-20 12:56:20 AM

muck4doo: Okay, This is what you Republican trolls will never get. You hate the lesser peoples. Democrats take care of lesser peoples.


With other people's money.

Democrats: Here's a fish, now fark off.
Republicans: Aren't ya s'posed to be out learnin how to fish?
 
2013-03-20 12:56:25 AM

muck4doo: Okay, This is what you Republican trolls will never get. You hate the lesser peoples. Democrats take care of lesser peoples.


The posts you've made in this thread are really good. They will be your legacy.
 
2013-03-20 12:56:35 AM

muck4doo: Okay, This is what you Republican trolls will never get. You hate the lesser peoples. Democrats take care of lesser peoples.


They also carry out extra-judicial executions by drone. The two-party system is a no-win situation.
 
2013-03-20 12:57:05 AM
Wait, have I entered the rainbows and unicorn thread?  NO?  May a pox on Bush/Cheney emerge immediately.  They threw our kids against this from the get-go.  F*ck them and those policies.  Just in case you think I care, Obama is the same F*cking policy....likely worse.  Good luck you folks fighting on the front lines of some craptastular effort......
 
2013-03-20 12:57:11 AM

Bamboozler: Does the president or congress declare war?


Congress declares war.  The War powers act give the President, as Commander-in-Chief the right to send troops in wherever and whenever he fancies.

/In short, you're an idiot.
 
2013-03-20 12:57:22 AM
But, but but... DEMOCRATS!!1!!
 
2013-03-20 12:57:29 AM

Dr.Zom: Yogimus: You know what makes me weep? How everyone OTHER than those two get a complete pass.

/lookin at you congress

We'll never know what Cheney's Intel Unit was telling those guys behind the scenes. I distinctly remember one congressman saying Cheney's people told him Saddam had drones that could reach the east coast with nerve gas. Total BS, but scary. They wanted war, they got it, and they killed anybody who got in their way.

I've looked for that article since and it's pretty much gone down the memory hole like so much other stuff.

Still, they should have know they were liars. I could tell and I'm nobody.


Wired magazine just posted an article about these drones of Saddam's, just today:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/03/drone-bioweapons/
 
2013-03-20 12:57:41 AM
once Obama took office Bush was absolved of all of this, this is Obama's Iraq, Obama's recession, Obama's debt, and Obama's America and the Republicans could've let you all off the hook and came in and took over, and set this country on the right track, but Romney declined the Presidency after winning 313 electoral votes, because the only reason he was running was to show that he could win even while barely trying, intentionally making an idiot out of himself multiple times, and in general making a mockery of the whole process, so enjoy your final 4 years of the punishment the Republicans have given you, we'll come make it all better in 2016, if you deserve it.
 
2013-03-20 12:57:47 AM
sendtodave: Yours is not to reason why, yours is but to do and die.

i45.tinypic.com
 
2013-03-20 12:57:55 AM
 
2013-03-20 12:58:07 AM

Thunderpipes: Traitors are heroes?


We can always coont on you.

/yes, filerpwned
//was deliberate
 
2013-03-20 12:58:10 AM

Bamboozler: Does the president or congress declare war?


...neither has since 1941.
 
2013-03-20 12:58:52 AM

falcon176: once Obama took office Bush was absolved of all of this, this is Obama's Iraq, Obama's recession, Obama's debt, and Obama's America and the Republicans could've let you all off the hook and came in and took over, and set this country on the right track, but Romney declined the Presidency after winning 313 electoral votes, because the only reason he was running was to show that he could win even while barely trying, intentionally making an idiot out of himself multiple times, and in general making a mockery of the whole process, so enjoy your final 4 years of the punishment the Republicans have given you, we'll come make it all better in 2016, if you deserve it.


And once again the houses point their fingers and giggle.
 
2013-03-20 12:59:03 AM

sex0r: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

Too late.  It came in the form of "hope and change."


I thought that was supposed to be socialism.
We need to get our isms straight.
 
2013-03-20 12:59:05 AM

HideAndGoFarkYourself: Either way, Bush 1.0 should have stayed in Iraq initially, fought through to Baghdad, and killed or captured Hussein.


Unlike his son, Bush Sr. wasn't a moron and didn't want to break up the coalition to get mired down in an on-going occupation.
 
2013-03-20 12:59:28 AM

Fart_Machine: GORDON: I'm sorry, who was it that bore false witness?

You realize that many of those quotes are truncated, offer no context, or were made prior to Operation Desert Fox right?


Yes.  All of those democrats talking about Saddam's active WMD program in 2002 is totally out of context.

I was never in favor of the war, and never a huge fan of Bush, and I've even been an athiest for 30 years, but goddam do I hate the selective memory of knee-jerk Bush hating liberals.  The man actually worked with Congress that wasn't of his party.  Bills got signed.  Budgets got passed.  He had half the unemployment numbers of Obama.  Yet, he was the moron and Obama is the great leader.

Hey, anybody remember, "Bush Derangement Syndrome?"
 
2013-03-20 01:00:20 AM

Dwight_Yeast: Bamboozler: Does the president or congress declare war?

Congress declares war.  The War powers act give the President, as Commander-in-Chief the right to send troops in wherever and whenever he fancies.


In other words: Uh, whatever?
 
2013-03-20 01:00:26 AM

Fart_Machine: Unlike his son, Bush Sr. wasn't a moron and didn't want to break up the coalition to get mired down in an on-going occupation.


Furthermore, he respected his mandate.
 
2013-03-20 01:00:32 AM

falcon176: once Obama took office Bush was absolved of all of this, this is Obama's Iraq, Obama's recession, Obama's debt, and Obama's America and the Republicans could've let you all off the hook and came in and took over, and set this country on the right track, but Romney declined the Presidency after winning 313 electoral votes, because the only reason he was running was to show that he could win even while barely trying, intentionally making an idiot out of himself multiple times, and in general making a mockery of the whole process, so enjoy your final 4 years of the punishment the Republicans have given you, we'll come make it all better in 2016, if you deserve it.


7/10  Nice.
 
2013-03-20 01:00:38 AM

HideAndGoFarkYourself: Ok, this WMD stuff is straight up ridiculous.

Hussein had some funky shiat, he gassed the Kurds in Halabja in March of 1988.  He killed 182,000 in Al-Anfal from '86-'89, some of that from Chemical attacks.

Were they WMD's in iraq in 2003?  Probably.  Were they in the area's the Government painted as WMD silos, plants, etc.  Clearly not.

Much like the spider hole that dirty bastard was pulled from, I'm fairly sure there are some chemical weapons buried somewhere in Iraq to this day.

Either way, Bush 1.0 should have stayed in Iraq initially, fought through to Baghdad, and killed or captured Hussein.  Bush 2.0 always seemed to be trying to finish daddy's work.


You don't know your history. We already know what happened to Saddam's 1980's stocks of WMD's. Sadddam's brother-in-law, Hussain Kamel was in charge of them. 1996, as the UN inspectors were closing in, he was ordered to take all the stockpiles into the desert and blow them up. He did.

Later, when the UN inspectors found this out, and investigated, they found the pits with the blown-up ordance and chemicals. But because there is no way to totally count weapons after they've been destroyed, the inspectors couldn't be sure if this represented ALL the old weapons.

But the Duelfor Report, ordered by Bush after the invasion, makes it clear: Saddam  had no WMD's left by 2003.
 
2013-03-20 01:00:50 AM

Yogimus: falcon176: once Obama took office Bush was absolved of all of this, this is Obama's Iraq, Obama's recession, Obama's debt, and Obama's America and the Republicans could've let you all off the hook and came in and took over, and set this country on the right track, but Romney declined the Presidency after winning 313 electoral votes, because the only reason he was running was to show that he could win even while barely trying, intentionally making an idiot out of himself multiple times, and in general making a mockery of the whole process, so enjoy your final 4 years of the punishment the Republicans have given you, we'll come make it all better in 2016, if you deserve it.

And once again the houses point their fingers and giggle.


Hey, shouldn't ya be out learnin to fish? Why you postin in this here thread? Git! GIT!
 
2013-03-20 01:00:51 AM

Kurmudgeon: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

And yet as a Christian and a Democrat, I never supported Dubya, Dick or the GOP to the point I've lost family and friends over this issue. Bush 2 Administration bore false witness to wage war.
That is not a Christian value. Oh well, I'm sure someone will knee jerk post this Sinclair Lewis quote inaccurately once again.


...yes, because support of fascism has to be unanimous to take hold.
 
2013-03-20 01:01:15 AM
I know war now. I'll tell you what it is. War is young men killing other young men they do not know on the orders of old men who know one another too well.
 
2013-03-20 01:01:37 AM

Yogimus: The reason I have little respect for Kerry is because he put himself in for medals instead of his men. I can't respect that manner of self promotion.


How would that even be possible?
 
2013-03-20 01:02:14 AM

you are a puppet: Yogimus: falcon176: once Obama took office Bush was absolved of all of this, this is Obama's Iraq, Obama's recession, Obama's debt, and Obama's America and the Republicans could've let you all off the hook and came in and took over, and set this country on the right track, but Romney declined the Presidency after winning 313 electoral votes, because the only reason he was running was to show that he could win even while barely trying, intentionally making an idiot out of himself multiple times, and in general making a mockery of the whole process, so enjoy your final 4 years of the punishment the Republicans have given you, we'll come make it all better in 2016, if you deserve it.

And once again the houses point their fingers and giggle.

Hey, shouldn't ya be out learnin to fish? Why you postin in this here thread? Git! GIT!


I fish with anthrax
 
2013-03-20 01:02:31 AM

Alphax: Yogimus: The reason I have little respect for Kerry is because he put himself in for medals instead of his men. I can't respect that manner of self promotion.

How would that even be possible?


You would need a really swift boat.
 
2013-03-20 01:03:18 AM

Corn_Fed: HideAndGoFarkYourself: Ok, this WMD stuff is straight up ridiculous.

Hussein had some funky shiat, he gassed the Kurds in Halabja in March of 1988.  He killed 182,000 in Al-Anfal from '86-'89, some of that from Chemical attacks.

Were they WMD's in iraq in 2003?  Probably.  Were they in the area's the Government painted as WMD silos, plants, etc.  Clearly not.

Much like the spider hole that dirty bastard was pulled from, I'm fairly sure there are some chemical weapons buried somewhere in Iraq to this day.

Either way, Bush 1.0 should have stayed in Iraq initially, fought through to Baghdad, and killed or captured Hussein.  Bush 2.0 always seemed to be trying to finish daddy's work.

You don't know your history. We already know what happened to Saddam's 1980's stocks of WMD's. Sadddam's brother-in-law, Hussain Kamel was in charge of them. 1996, as the UN inspectors were closing in, he was ordered to take all the stockpiles into the desert and blow them up. He did.

Later, when the UN inspectors found this out, and investigated, they found the pits with the blown-up ordance and chemicals. But because there is no way to totally count weapons after they've been destroyed, the inspectors couldn't be sure if this represented ALL the old weapons.

But the Duelfor Report, ordered by Bush after the invasion, makes it clear: Saddam  had no WMD's left by 2003.


In the end, it doesn't really matter.  Bush Jr didn't need a legal reason, he already had that.  Saddam postured and willingly violated every order by the UN because he wanted to look strong.  Regardless of the fact that he had nothing, he postured like he had something.  The only thing Bush Jr needed to do was sell it to the public, which he did.  There aren't any war crime trials because the war itself is legally justified by the UN stipulations
 
2013-03-20 01:03:32 AM

Yogimus: Corn_Fed: The Iraq War was a  Republican war.

It was a partisan war.


None of the Democrats who got strong-armed into cowardly going along with it actually wanted it.

It was  wanted by Republicans.
It was  desired by Republicans.
It was  designed by Republicans.
It was  promoted by Republicans.
It was implemented by Republicans.

I can respect a villain, not so much the coward.


...and that's why the villain wins.
 
2013-03-20 01:03:56 AM
HideAndGoFarkYourself:

Either way, Bush 1.0 should have stayed in Iraq initially, fought through to Baghdad, and killed or captured Hussein.  Bush 2.0 always seemed to be trying to finish daddy's work.

Which would have simply moved this clusterfark up ten years earlier.  Yeah, that would have been a major improvement.
 
2013-03-20 01:04:18 AM

Coelacanth: flamingboard: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: I think George Bush is already pretty much broken.  They say he stays inside all day and paints pictures of himself.

I'll be satisfied when I can piss on his grave.


Get in line.
I'd like to get in a bunch of George Bush heads ala Game of Thrones and stick them on pikes all along the main road heading into town.


Already been done
 
2013-03-20 01:04:30 AM

HideAndGoFarkYourself: Much like the spider hole that dirty bastard was pulled from, I'm fairly sure there are some chemical weapons buried somewhere in Iraq to this day.


Wasn't that the 'spider hole' that Saddam was put in after his capture, then pulled out of, to make him seem more cowardly?
 
2013-03-20 01:05:05 AM

GORDON: Fart_Machine: GORDON: I'm sorry, who was it that bore false witness?

You realize that many of those quotes are truncated, offer no context, or were made prior to Operation Desert Fox right?

Yes.  All of those democrats talking about Saddam's active WMD program in 2002 is totally out of context.


In some cases, yes.  There's a Snopes article linked above if you'd like to check it out.

I was never in favor of the war, and never a huge fan of Bush, and I've even been an athiest for 30 years, but goddam do I hate the selective memory of knee-jerk Bush hating liberals.  The man actually worked with Congress that wasn't of his party.  Bills got signed.  Budgets got passed.  He had half the unemployment numbers of Obama.  Yet, he was the moron and Obama is the great leader.

Probably because Bush left the country in a shambles and Obama had to clean up the mess.  So far he's done a pretty good job.

Hey, anybody remember, "Bush Derangement Syndrome?"

I remember it being a deflection excuse from people like yourself.  Good job.
 
2013-03-20 01:05:14 AM

you are a puppet: Well Obama hasn't ended the war yet so Vote Republican!


"The U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq was completed on 18 December 2011".
Wiki

/you're welcome
 
2013-03-20 01:06:27 AM

Yogimus: Corn_Fed: The Iraq War was a  Republican war.

It was a partisan war.


None of the Democrats who got strong-armed into cowardly going along with it actually wanted it.

It was  wanted by Republicans.
It was  desired by Republicans.
It was  designed by Republicans.
It was  promoted by Republicans.
It was implemented by Republicans.

I can respect a villain, not so much the coward.


Sadly, I can't say I disagree with this.
 
2013-03-20 01:06:47 AM
Look at the leaders we've followed
Look at the lies we've swallowed
And I don't want to hear no more
 
2013-03-20 01:07:20 AM

Bamboozler: Does the president or congress declare war?


Nobody does.

The War Powers Act of 1973 allowed Congress to abdicate their Constitutional duty.
 
2013-03-20 01:07:53 AM
So, is Iraq better or worse off after all of this?
 
2013-03-20 01:08:21 AM

PanicMan: Look at the leaders we've followed
Look at the lies we've swallowed
And I don't want to hear no more


24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-03-20 01:09:37 AM
I love how the GOP is basically retarded.

Sending thousands of men to their deaths to make Haliburton fat stacks of cash= honorable, heroic, manly

Using drones to safeguard the lives of actual soldiers = OMG HOW CAN YOU DEMS STAND THE BLOOD YOU STAND IN.

Really GOP. I wish we lived in a universe where you actually could realize how abjectly stupid you are.

Whatever. Continue to marginalize yourself. The democrats can become the center right party they already are and an actual liberal party can step up to the plate.

The only question is, how much more of America can the GOP destroy in their death throes.

I'll piss on its corpse, that's for sure.
 
2013-03-20 01:09:42 AM
Well, in all fairness, you decided to join the military and don't have a choice where you are sent.  Having said that, the war in Iraq is utter bullshiat and I hate seeing our young people killed for a bunch of people that wouldn't piss on us if we were on fire.
 
2013-03-20 01:09:56 AM

Alphax: Yogimus: The reason I have little respect for Kerry is because he put himself in for medals instead of his men. I can't respect that manner of self promotion.

How would that even be possible?


It's not.  If it was, every unethical careerist LT would have more medals than Audie Murphy.

Kerry's CO, George Elliot, specifically stated that he personally nominated Kerry for the Silver Star.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp
 
2013-03-20 01:09:59 AM
From pain...
img.gawkerassets.com
Comes art.
 
2013-03-20 01:10:16 AM

sex0r: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

Too late.  It came in the form of "hope and change."


i518.photobucket.com
 
2013-03-20 01:10:29 AM
I got an honest question that will probably get shouted down just like all the other times I've asked, but here goes.

At what point do those that enlist willingly have to own their own failure to recognize the suck that enlisting is, was, and always will be?

I knew better than to enlist at age 18. A lot younger. And now I, a functioning sane and un-f--ked up adult, only have to look on at all the glitter-tear ooh-rah bullsh*t that the military puts out to know I was right and all the people that fell for it were wrong.

When will people quit falling for the bullsh*t the military puts out and quit enlisting? I wish I knew. Probably never. And that is the biggest tragedy of all.

Bush and Cheney and all the other farktards would be nothing without millions of willing victims lining up to be patriotic tools for them.
 
2013-03-20 01:10:40 AM

Corn_Fed: HideAndGoFarkYourself: Ok, this WMD stuff is straight up ridiculous.

Hussein had some funky shiat, he gassed the Kurds in Halabja in March of 1988.  He killed 182,000 in Al-Anfal from '86-'89, some of that from Chemical attacks.

Were they WMD's in iraq in 2003?  Probably.  Were they in the area's the Government painted as WMD silos, plants, etc.  Clearly not.

Much like the spider hole that dirty bastard was pulled from, I'm fairly sure there are some chemical weapons buried somewhere in Iraq to this day.

Either way, Bush 1.0 should have stayed in Iraq initially, fought through to Baghdad, and killed or captured Hussein.  Bush 2.0 always seemed to be trying to finish daddy's work.

You don't know your history. We already know what happened to Saddam's 1980's stocks of WMD's. Sadddam's brother-in-law, Hussain Kamel was in charge of them. 1996, as the UN inspectors were closing in, he was ordered to take all the stockpiles into the desert and blow them up. He did.

Later, when the UN inspectors found this out, and investigated, they found the pits with the blown-up ordance and chemicals. But because there is no way to totally count weapons after they've been destroyed, the inspectors couldn't be sure if this represented ALL the old weapons.

But the Duelfor Report, ordered by Bush after the invasion, makes it clear: Saddam  had no WMD's left by 2003.


I know my history just fine.  Kamel was in charge of WMD's and we're to take his word that he blew them all up?  I think not.  This is a country that doesn't exactly keep a spreadsheet of their bombs.  Nevermind that Kamel said they had Nuclear weapons, which there's no proof of them having.  Look, still, at Baghdad Bob, and his ridiculous statements about the infidels "committing suicide at the gates of Baghdad by the thousands," and I have a hard time believing anyone associated with Saddam Hussein says.

Like I said, I believe that there are probably still some chemical weapons in Iraq.  I don't care what the Duelfor Report says, there's literally no way to be sure that all of those weapons were destroyed.

The most wanted man in the world hid in a city of 1.5 million people for five years.  I'm sure Hussein hid some of his weapons in the desert somewhere.
 
2013-03-20 01:10:58 AM

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: I think George Bush is already pretty much broken.  They say he stays inside all day and paints pictures of himself.


Too bad he didn't do that from 2001 to 2009.
 
2013-03-20 01:11:08 AM
The true irony, and legacy, of the Iraq War is that if it had never happened, and Saddam were still there, the geo-political dynamic would be completely the same.

Because he was a powerless paper tiger.

If he was still there, the world situation would be no different, but 4,000 Americans would still be alive, along with 300,000 innocent Iraqis.

It was a totally useless war from start to finish.
 
2013-03-20 01:11:11 AM
 
2013-03-20 01:11:49 AM
Too many big words.  Bush won't understand it.
 
2013-03-20 01:12:21 AM

phoenix352: So, is Iraq better or worse off after all of this?


Much, much worse.
 
2013-03-20 01:12:56 AM
Yep, over in two.  Dick Cheney would print that shiat out and mount it above the bar in his vacation home to laugh at with his war profiteering buddies while they drink some absurdly expensive booze.

/and here's to you, Mr. Ass-kickin'-letter-writing-guy
//Mr. Ass-kickin'-letter-wri-iting-GUYYY!!!!
 
2013-03-20 01:13:10 AM

Corn_Fed: The true irony, and legacy, of the Iraq War is that if it had never happened, and Saddam were still there, the geo-political dynamic would be completely the same.

Because he was a powerless paper tiger.

If he was still there, the world situation would be no different, but 4,000 Americans would still be alive, along with 300,000 innocent Iraqis.

It was a totally useless war from start to finish.


Not true. It made Jeremy Renner a star.
 
2013-03-20 01:13:11 AM
You are all going to watch a war with Iran unfold in slow motion, just like this one did.

Might take twenty years, but it will happen.
 
2013-03-20 01:13:23 AM
Don't ask us, we're too busy drone striking the crap out of americans.

-Demobrats
 
2013-03-20 01:13:42 AM

untaken_name: If you think the people responsible for war care about the people fighting war, you don't yet understand the true nature of war.


THIS. Sadly, it will fall on deaf ears--as it has over the last 4000 years.
 
2013-03-20 01:13:47 AM
There is a bigger picture that he is describing...yet most of this world just doesn't get it.

I wish I could give you an in person hug, sir.  <3

/HUGS HUGS HUGS!!
 
2013-03-20 01:13:57 AM
He had me up until he said: "I joined the Army two days after the 9/11 attacks. "

So, he was making a major life decision based on a knee-jerk reaction to which he had no real information on other than the flurry of media info at the time. Then he got sent off to the admittedly wrong war, and now wants to biatch about it?

Here's an idea. Maybe wait more than 48 hours after a national tragedy so that you can get your emotions in check before deciding to sign your life away to the military to avenge something you really have no clue about at the time.
 
2013-03-20 01:14:08 AM

Asplenium: Coelacanth: flamingboard: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: I think George Bush is already pretty much broken.  They say he stays inside all day and paints pictures of himself.

I'll be satisfied when I can piss on his grave.


Get in line.
I'd like to get in a bunch of George Bush heads ala Game of Thrones and stick them on pikes all along the main road heading into town.

Already been done


That's the joke.
 
2013-03-20 01:14:41 AM

muck4doo: Don't ask us, we're too busy drone striking the crap out of americans.

-Demobrats


Drones are the New Black Helicopters.
 
2013-03-20 01:15:35 AM

sendtodave: Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You chose to be part of a war machine?

Yours is not to reason why, yours is but to do and die.


'Forward, the Light Brigade!'
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldiers knew
Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
 
2013-03-20 01:16:25 AM

Fart_Machine: muck4doo: Don't ask us, we're too busy drone striking the crap out of americans.

-Demobrats

Drones are the New Black Helicopters.


You have seconds to realize that
 
2013-03-20 01:16:26 AM

Mentat: And Dick Cheney will never care.


I dont think Barry cares that his Golf game costs 5750 easter egg hunts.  But what is important is to cancel the egg hunt to show you mean business about saving money.
 
2013-03-20 01:17:26 AM

HideAndGoFarkYourself: Corn_Fed: HideAndGoFarkYourself: Ok, this WMD stuff is straight up ridiculous.

Hussein had some funky shiat, he gassed the Kurds in Halabja in March of 1988.  He killed 182,000 in Al-Anfal from '86-'89, some of that from Chemical attacks.

Were they WMD's in iraq in 2003?  Probably.  Were they in the area's the Government painted as WMD silos, plants, etc.  Clearly not.

Much like the spider hole that dirty bastard was pulled from, I'm fairly sure there are some chemical weapons buried somewhere in Iraq to this day.

Either way, Bush 1.0 should have stayed in Iraq initially, fought through to Baghdad, and killed or captured Hussein.  Bush 2.0 always seemed to be trying to finish daddy's work.

You don't know your history. We already know what happened to Saddam's 1980's stocks of WMD's. Sadddam's brother-in-law, Hussain Kamel was in charge of them. 1996, as the UN inspectors were closing in, he was ordered to take all the stockpiles into the desert and blow them up. He did.

Later, when the UN inspectors found this out, and investigated, they found the pits with the blown-up ordance and chemicals. But because there is no way to totally count weapons after they've been destroyed, the inspectors couldn't be sure if this represented ALL the old weapons.

But the Duelfor Report, ordered by Bush after the invasion, makes it clear: Saddam  had no WMD's left by 2003.

I know my history just fine.  Kamel was in charge of WMD's and we're to take his word that he blew them all up?  I think not.  This is a country that doesn't exactly keep a spreadsheet of their bombs.  Nevermind that Kamel said they had Nuclear weapons, which there's no proof of them having.  Look, still, at Baghdad Bob, and his ridiculous statements about the infidels "committing suicide at the gates of Baghdad by the thousands," and I have a hard time believing anyone associated with Saddam Hussein says.

Like I said, I believe that there are probably still some chemical weapons in Iraq.  I don't care what ...



Even if there were some straggler WMD's circa 2003, they would all be waaaaay past their shelf life. None of Iraq's WMD's were stable, or of high quality. After about 18 months, they were degraded to an essentially unweaponized state. We know that.  We also KNEW that he didn't have any large weapons manufacturing facilities. The UN inspectors had already established that completely. Further, during the cat-and-mouse chases in the late 90's, the inspectors weren't looking for stockpiles or factories--they were only looking for blueprints. Because they already knew that factories and stockpiles didn't exist and/or were irrelevant.

The fact is, even if there were some stragglers which escaped detection, they certainly were no valid reason to invade/occupy an entire country. It was always complete bullshiat.
 
2013-03-20 01:18:01 AM
In Bush's defense, I'm sure he had a "Support Our Troops" ribbon magnet on his truck.
 
2013-03-20 01:18:02 AM

you are a puppet: Corn_Fed: The true irony, and legacy, of the Iraq War is that if it had never happened, and Saddam were still there, the geo-political dynamic would be completely the same.

Because he was a powerless paper tiger.

If he was still there, the world situation would be no different, but 4,000 Americans would still be alive, along with 300,000 innocent Iraqis.

It was a totally useless war from start to finish.

Not true. It made Jeremy Renner a star.


I stand corrected.
 
2013-03-20 01:18:28 AM

Thunderpipes: Traitors are heroes?


You are absolutely right.  Bush and Cheney are certainly not heroes.
 
2013-03-20 01:18:29 AM

muck4doo: Fart_Machine: muck4doo: Don't ask us, we're too busy drone striking the crap out of americans.

-Demobrats

Drones are the New Black Helicopters.

You have seconds to realize that


I'll watch the skies.
 
2013-03-20 01:18:53 AM

untaken_name: Bamboozler: Does the president or congress declare war?

You mean in the case of the Iraq "war"?


Or the War on Drugs.
 
2013-03-20 01:19:36 AM
www.quitor.com
 
2013-03-20 01:19:51 AM

Fart_Machine: muck4doo: Don't ask us, we're too busy drone striking the crap out of americans.

-Demobrats

Drones are the New Black Helicopters.


It's the standard Republican response, any atrocity committed can be waived away by saying the other guys do bad stuff too.
 
2013-03-20 01:20:15 AM

Generation_D: I knew better than to enlist at age 18. A lot younger. And now I, a functioning sane and un-f--ked up adult, only have to look on at all the glitter-tear ooh-rah bullsh*t that the military puts out to know I was right and all the people that fell for it were wrong.


It's fantastic when people turn an "I don't want to" decision into an "I was too smart for that" decision years after the fact.
 
2013-03-20 01:20:23 AM

neongoats: You act like the general populace has power and a voice. Sorry, THAT is the most laughable thought in the thread so far.


If they don't, why bother getting angry?  Might as well yell at clouds.

No, I still go with the social contract theory.  Governemnt are legitimate as long as the people believe that they are.

And as long as the people say (directly or indirectly) that the government is legitimate, they get the government that they deserve.
 
2013-03-20 01:21:14 AM

Marubozo: He had me up until he said: "I joined the Army two days after the 9/11 attacks. "

So, he was making a major life decision based on a knee-jerk reaction to which he had no real information on other than the flurry of media info at the time. Then he got sent off to the admittedly wrong war, and now wants to biatch about it?

Here's an idea. Maybe wait more than 48 hours after a national tragedy so that you can get your emotions in check before deciding to sign your life away to the military to avenge something you really have no clue about at the time.


I'd give the guy a break on that one.  Young and naive, much like many of our grandfathers that signed up after Pearl Harbor.  At least he is capable of reflecting and changing his worldview based on what he's experienced since then, which is better than almost half the people in this country.
 
2013-03-20 01:22:08 AM

you are a puppet: Well Obama hasn't ended the war yet so Vote Republican!


i208.photobucket.com
 
2013-03-20 01:22:23 AM
It feels stupid to even argue about it. The war was destructive, painful, and ultimately fruitless. We destabilized the entire region for nothing and I doubt the Iraqi people are any better off, the dead ones certainly aren't. I feel like an idiot for ever supporting it. Now we have a lot of sick veterans to take care of and bills to pay. I learned something from it, I lost friends to it, and I'll be witness to the consequences of that war until the day I die. I hope this dying soldier finds the peace he deserves.
 
2013-03-20 01:22:30 AM

Corn_Fed: But there IS a difference between hatching a plan, and being duped by the hatched plan.

This was a  Republcan, partisan war.


Supporting a war is supporting a war.  Even if you were led to support it.

I feel no sympathy. I repeat, I feel no sympathy! The German people chose their fate. That may surprise some people. Don't fool yourself. We didn't force the German people. They gave us a mandate, and now their little throats are being cut!
 
2013-03-20 01:22:48 AM
Okay. This is stupid. Bush declared war on an undeserving country and leader. Obama does drone strikes on enemies of America. Idiots will never see the difference.
 
2013-03-20 01:23:17 AM

Alphax: HideAndGoFarkYourself: Much like the spider hole that dirty bastard was pulled from, I'm fairly sure there are some chemical weapons buried somewhere in Iraq to this day.

Wasn't that the 'spider hole' that Saddam was put in after his capture, then pulled out of, to make him seem more cowardly?


No.  According to every legitimate source around, Hussein was inside the spider hole when found.
 
2013-03-20 01:23:17 AM

Wadded Beef: In Bush's defense, I'm sure he had a "Support Our Troops" ribbon magnet on his truck.


And a "Power of Pride" sticker.

I laugh every time I see one of those. "Power of Pride". Yeah, exactly. Your GOP "Power of Pride" basically ruined an entire region, and the American economy. So when I see these faded, falling apart stickers on cars, the drivers eyes dead and soulless, I laugh. I laugh at how evil and stupid the GOP is. GOP pride made the world a worse place to be.

Good jorb, you prideful shiatbags.
 
2013-03-20 01:23:36 AM

Corn_Fed: The true irony, and legacy, of the Iraq War is that if it had never happened, and Saddam were still there, the geo-political dynamic would be completely the same.


It might not. Saddam was working to create a new oil bourse that moved oil trading off the U.S. dollar. This could have possibly destabilized American currency at a time when the dollar was very strong but stocks were highly over valued when compared to liquid  assets. Iran has been trying to do the same since around 2004 or 2005, which is the principle reason we're so antagonistic to them. Iran's nuclear program, much like Iraq's earlier chemical weapon and rocket program, aren't considered realistic threats by most public reporting intelligence agencies. Moving oil off the dollar, on the other hand, would be a big problem for us.
 
2013-03-20 01:24:19 AM

Lee Jackson Beauregard: sendtodave: Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You chose to be part of a war machine?

Yours is not to reason why, yours is but to do and die.

'Forward, the Light Brigade!'
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldiers knew
Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.


The Last of the Light Brigade
~Rudyard Kipling

There were thirty million English who talked of England's might,
There were twenty broken troopers who lacked a bed for the night.
They had neither food nor money, they had neither service nor trade;
They were only shiftless soldiers, the last of the Light Brigade.

They felt that life was fleeting; they knew not that art was long,
That though they were dying of famine, they lived in deathless song.
They asked for a little money to keep the wolf from the door;
And the thirty million English sent twenty pounds and four!

They laid their heads together that were scarred and lined and grey;
Keen were the Russian sabres, but want was keener than they;
And an old Troop-Sergeant muttered, "Let us go to the man who writes
The things on Balaclava the kiddies at school recites."

They went without bands or colours, a regiment ten-file strong,
To look for the Master-singer who had crowned them all in his song;
And, waiting his servant's order, by the garden gate they stayed,
A desolate little cluster, the last of the Light Brigade.

They strove to stand to attention, to straighten the toil-bowed back;
They drilled on an empty stomach, the loose-knit files fell slack;
With stooping of weary shoulders, in garments tattered and frayed,
They shambled into his presence, the last of the Light Brigade.

The old Troop-Sergeant was spokesman, and "Beggin' your pardon," he said,
"You wrote o' the Light Brigade, sir. Here's all that isn't dead.
An' it's all come true what you wrote, sir, regardin' the mouth of hell;
For we're all of us nigh to the workhouse, an' we thought we'd call an' tell."

No, thank you, we don't want food, sir; but couldn't you take an' write
A sort of 'to be continued' and 'see next page' o' the fight?
We think that someone has blundered, an' couldn't you tell 'em how?
You wrote we were heroes once, sir. Please, write we are starving now."

The poor little army departed, limping and lean and forlorn.
And the heart of the Master-singer grew hot with "the scorn of scorn."
And he wrote for them wonderful verses that swept the land like flame,
Till the fatted souls of the English were scourged with the thing called Shame.

They sent a cheque to the felon that sprang from an Irish bog;
They healed the spavined cab-horse; they housed the homeless dog;
And they sent (you may call me a liar), when felon and beast were paid,
A cheque, for enough to live on, to the last of the Light Brigade.

O thirty million English that babble of England's might,
Behold there are twenty heroes who lack their food to-night;
Our children's children are lisping to "honour the charge they made - "
And we leave to the streets and the workhouse the charge of the Light Brigade!
 
2013-03-20 01:25:17 AM

muck4doo: Okay. This is stupid. Bush declared war on an undeserving country and leader. Obama does drone strikes on enemies of America. Idiots will never see the difference.


When you frame it in those terms, there isn't one.

Anyone can be an "enemy of America" if the administration says that they are.  Even Americans.
 
2013-03-20 01:25:31 AM

HideAndGoFarkYourself: Alphax: HideAndGoFarkYourself: Much like the spider hole that dirty bastard was pulled from, I'm fairly sure there are some chemical weapons buried somewhere in Iraq to this day.

Wasn't that the 'spider hole' that Saddam was put in after his capture, then pulled out of, to make him seem more cowardly?

No.  According to every legitimate source around, Hussein was inside the spider hole when found.


Rethuglican spideyholes. Figures.
 
2013-03-20 01:25:31 AM

middleoftheday: Generation_D: I knew better than to enlist at age 18. A lot younger. And now I, a functioning sane and un-f--ked up adult, only have to look on at all the glitter-tear ooh-rah bullsh*t that the military puts out to know I was right and all the people that fell for it were wrong.

It's fantastic when people turn an "I don't want to" decision into an "I was too smart for that" decision years after the fact.


Pretty sure I remember saying it was a dumbass move to do it, then and now. But you're proving my point.

Nobody can hold an enlistee accountable. Its always a patriotic calling. And the tragedy that happens later is therefore everyone else's fault.

Bush, Cheney and the rest of these farktards would be nothing if they had no followers. We already know corrupt leaders won't be changing any time soon.

When do the easily deluded, easily conned followers get their share of the blame/credit for the military debacles of history?

Never. Its always those poor noble men and women who were led astray.
 
2013-03-20 01:25:33 AM
And now, the Conservative response:

To ALL liberals:

i.imgur.com

And to this veteran in particular:


wonkette.com
 
2013-03-20 01:25:37 AM

neongoats: Wadded Beef: In Bush's defense, I'm sure he had a "Support Our Troops" ribbon magnet on his truck.

And a "Power of Pride" sticker.

I laugh every time I see one of those. "Power of Pride". Yeah, exactly. Your GOP "Power of Pride" basically ruined an entire region, and the American economy. So when I see these faded, falling apart stickers on cars, the drivers eyes dead and soulless, I laugh. I laugh at how evil and stupid the GOP is. GOP pride made the world a worse place to be.

Good jorb, you prideful shiatbags.


My favorite was seeing a UNITED WE STAND sticker next to a LIBERAL HUNTING PERMIT sticker.
 
2013-03-20 01:25:59 AM

sendtodave: muck4doo: Okay. This is stupid. Bush declared war on an undeserving country and leader. Obama does drone strikes on enemies of America. Idiots will never see the difference.

When you frame it in those terms, there isn't one.

Anyone can be an "enemy of America" if the administration says that they are.  Even Americans.


* Or even undeserving countries and their leaders.
 
2013-03-20 01:26:37 AM

Sgt Otter: neongoats: Wadded Beef: In Bush's defense, I'm sure he had a "Support Our Troops" ribbon magnet on his truck.

And a "Power of Pride" sticker.

I laugh every time I see one of those. "Power of Pride". Yeah, exactly. Your GOP "Power of Pride" basically ruined an entire region, and the American economy. So when I see these faded, falling apart stickers on cars, the drivers eyes dead and soulless, I laugh. I laugh at how evil and stupid the GOP is. GOP pride made the world a worse place to be.

Good jorb, you prideful shiatbags.

My favorite was seeing a UNITED WE STAND sticker next to a LIBERAL HUNTING PERMIT sticker.


The royal We
 
2013-03-20 01:28:12 AM
So....how long does it take for a populace to completely forget being duped into a stupid, useless war, and decides to do it again?

By the Vietnam - Iraq example, apparently about 35 to 40 years. I guess we can look forward to the next Republican war around 2040.
 
2013-03-20 01:28:32 AM

Generation_D: Nobody can hold an enlistee accountable. Its always a patriotic calling.


What if you don't value nationalism or patriotism?

Can you hold them accountable for it then?

Because I can't think of any good reason to voluenteer to go to war, really, especially not "because my country tells me I'll be a hero."

Most reasons are economic, social pressure, or wanting power or revenge.
 
2013-03-20 01:28:45 AM

HideAndGoFarkYourself: No. According to every legitimate source around, Hussein was inside the spider hole when found.


I remember some reporter on CNN at the time had obviously been given some conflicting information, and she suggested that there was a taxi in the spiderhole with him!

This gave me some really confusing imagery. Was the taxi buried or something? Was there a small tunnel leading into one of the windows or something?

Of course later it came out that he was just hiding in an inconspicuous suburban home and it all made a lot more sense then!
 
2013-03-20 01:30:06 AM

muck4doo: Okay. This is stupid. Bush declared war on an undeserving country and leader. Obama does drone strikes on enemies of America. Idiots will never see the difference.


Enemies of America? Like those Al Qaeda rebels fighting to liberate Syria?
 
2013-03-20 01:30:32 AM

Sgt Otter: neongoats: Wadded Beef: In Bush's defense, I'm sure he had a "Support Our Troops" ribbon magnet on his truck.

And a "Power of Pride" sticker.

I laugh every time I see one of those. "Power of Pride". Yeah, exactly. Your GOP "Power of Pride" basically ruined an entire region, and the American economy. So when I see these faded, falling apart stickers on cars, the drivers eyes dead and soulless, I laugh. I laugh at how evil and stupid the GOP is. GOP pride made the world a worse place to be.

Good jorb, you prideful shiatbags.

My favorite was seeing a UNITED WE STAND sticker next to a LIBERAL HUNTING PERMIT sticker.


Liberals are devisive.  They keep saying things that make good, honest people doubt.  They're little satans, always tempting you with their "facts."

They have to be killed for America to be United.
 
2013-03-20 01:31:32 AM

sex0r: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

Too late.  It came in the form of "hope and change."


Just remember this: it was the sheer awfulness and ineptitude of the Bush 2 administration that made Obama possible, for better or worse.

May you find peace in the light of the ever after, soldier.
 
2013-03-20 01:31:50 AM

sendtodave: Sgt Otter: neongoats: Wadded Beef: In Bush's defense, I'm sure he had a "Support Our Troops" ribbon magnet on his truck.

And a "Power of Pride" sticker.

I laugh every time I see one of those. "Power of Pride". Yeah, exactly. Your GOP "Power of Pride" basically ruined an entire region, and the American economy. So when I see these faded, falling apart stickers on cars, the drivers eyes dead and soulless, I laugh. I laugh at how evil and stupid the GOP is. GOP pride made the world a worse place to be.

Good jorb, you prideful shiatbags.

My favorite was seeing a UNITED WE STAND sticker next to a LIBERAL HUNTING PERMIT sticker.

Liberals are devisive.  They keep saying things that make good, honest people doubt.  They're little satans, always tempting you with their "facts."

They have to be killed for America to be United.


They are tempting but the Bible says it's wrong.
 
2013-03-20 01:32:29 AM

spamdog: HideAndGoFarkYourself: No. According to every legitimate source around, Hussein was inside the spider hole when found.

I remember some reporter on CNN at the time had obviously been given some conflicting information, and she suggested that there was a taxi in the spiderhole with him!

This gave me some really confusing imagery. Was the taxi buried or something? Was there a small tunnel leading into one of the windows or something?

Of course later it came out that he was just hiding in an inconspicuous suburban home and it all made a lot more sense then!


The small stories that contradict the popular narrative usually get lost.  Like the one about the DoD conducting an exercise on 9/11 simulating an airplane crash into a building.
 
2013-03-20 01:32:52 AM
I like america. I hate liberals. Therefore, liberals must not be america. RUMSFELD/CHENEY 2016!
 
2013-03-20 01:32:57 AM

lolpix: Obama is going to get a pass too.


As if there was any comparison. Sheesh. Jimmy Carter was probably more of a war criminal.
 
2013-03-20 01:33:06 AM

spamdog: HideAndGoFarkYourself: No. According to every legitimate source around, Hussein was inside the spider hole when found.

I remember some reporter on CNN at the time had obviously been given some conflicting information, and she suggested that there was a taxi in the spiderhole with him!

This gave me some really confusing imagery. Was the taxi buried or something? Was there a small tunnel leading into one of the windows or something?

Of course later it came out that he was just hiding in an inconspicuous suburban home and it all made a lot more sense then!


That makes more sense than the Wiki entry on the topic.

"Items confiscated during the raid include two AK-47 rifles, a pistol, $750,000.00 U.S. dollars and one white/orange taxi. Two other individuals who have not been identified were also detained. There were no casualties in the operation."

Seemed like a lot for one hole.
 
2013-03-20 01:33:41 AM

sendtodave: Corn_Fed: None of the Democrats who got strong-armed into cowardly going along with it actually wanted it.

How were they strong armed into it
Unless you mean strong armed by their constituants, who wanted war.

But that's normal.  We call it Democracy.

You can blame a political party, I blame the American people who, like this soldier, wanted war.


Someone has has common sense in this thread.  Thanks
 
2013-03-20 01:33:58 AM

TWX: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

Lewis, Sinclair. It Can't Happen Here. 1935.

Good book. In my opinion it should be required reading in high school English classes.


False attribution, good book.

"This quote sounds like something Sinclair Lewis might have said or written, but the Sinclair Lewis Society has never been able to find this exact quote although we've been asked a number of times."

Full text of that book here; no sign of that quote.
 
2013-03-20 01:34:11 AM
said he's dying so young, really, but this guy is fairly ignorant.

this country has picked a significant fight on average every 4 years since the Spanish-American war.
there have been maybe two military interventions we have undertaken in the last century that we didn't actively choose to become a belligerent, but rather were the innocent victims.

heck, since my first memories as a small child thirty years ago these interventions I can recall:

Libya 1, Grenada, Panama, Kosovo, Gulf war 1, Somalia, Libya 2, Iraq, Afghanistan, and now Yemen, Pakistan, and possibly Syria.

that's 13, in 30 years, and only one of those was provoked. and we've been doing this for a century.
If you go into the service assuming you will be defending America from an existential threat, you are just a straight up ignoramus.
 
2013-03-20 01:34:45 AM
soupbone: this is the world we live in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU9lv_WqK6k
 
2013-03-20 01:34:50 AM

Lee Jackson Beauregard: Some one had blunder'd


Yeah, that's what I was implying.

If you are a soldier, your job is to fight, and maybe die, even if your leaders are wrong.

That's your job.

What kind of critically-thinking person would choose that?

The kind that thinks that America is never wrong?
 
2013-03-20 01:34:51 AM

Triumph: muck4doo: Okay. This is stupid. Bush declared war on an undeserving country and leader. Obama does drone strikes on enemies of America. Idiots will never see the difference.

Enemies of America? Like those Al Qaeda rebels fighting to liberate Syria?


Whatever your enemy of the day is according to president lady pants.
 
2013-03-20 01:35:11 AM
I hear that Jeb Bush wants to become president so he can kill more Americans than his father or his brother.  What a filthy family!
GW will burn in hell.
Along with all of his supporters.
 
2013-03-20 01:37:01 AM

relcec: If you go into the service assuming you will be defending America from an existential threat, you are just a straight up ignoramus.


Well, SOMEONE doesn't Support Our Troops.

Positively unAmerican.
 
2013-03-20 01:37:08 AM

rosebud_the_sled: Along with all of his supporters.


I don't think that's how it works.
 
2013-03-20 01:39:13 AM
Soldier, blame your pathetic countrymen. Your pathetic countrymen who are nauseatingly deferential to power, and easily swayed by corporate media propaganda these days.

This once great nation used to be populated by people who didn't just sit back and take it on the chin when power (government or corporate) decided to put the screws to them. Had Iraq 2 happened in the early 1900s, you can rest assured that a ragtag assortment of labor unions, farmers, intellectuals, and political muckrakers would have been out in the streets rioting; demanding to know why the working class was sent off to die so the elites could fatten their billfolds.

Instead, we not only re-elected the cretins who plunged this country headfirst into war profiteering (which is all Iraq 2 was), but we completely swore off any investigative or punitive measures in the aftermath to punish those responsible. Obama has made it clear that there will be no prosecutions of anyone in the Bush administration. Your weak countrymen have responded to this with a resounding "meh".

You can't blame power seekers for not giving a fark about you, soldier. They've always been that way and they always will be. But you CAN blame your countrymen for being derelict in their duty (namely, not holding these "elected" leaders' feet to the fire when necessary).

Bush and Cheney didn't fail you. We did.
 
2013-03-20 01:39:47 AM
Every American who supported that nonsense war and fell for their bullshiat, when it was plenty obvious even at the time there were major holes in their story, needs to apologize.

I farkin' stood out in the rain with an anti-war sign in traffic. I never do shiat like that but I knew bullshiat when I saw it.

What was your excuse?
 
2013-03-20 01:39:52 AM
I have a crazy idea that would make a lot of people happy, order an arrest warrant for George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Karl Rove for their involvement in ordering a war that should have never happened.
 
2013-03-20 01:40:09 AM

DocTrevena: I know war now. I'll tell you what it is. War is young men killing other young men they do not know on the orders of old men who know one another too well.


Erwin Kowalke, servant of the bones.

/yes, it's an Ann Rice book title
 
2013-03-20 01:40:38 AM
Guess everyone on the right side of the aisle has forgotten about these:

Operation Iraqi Freedom documents are some 48,000 boxes of documents, audiotapes and videotapes that were discovered by the U.S. military during the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

During an interview with Committee staff, the lead DIA analyst who follows the issue of possible connections between the Iraqi government and al-Qa'ida noted that the DIA 'continues to maintain that there was no partnership between the two organizations'.

The study also cites documents demonstrating that key evidence presented by Colin Powell to the United Nations in February 2003 had been severely misinterpreted by the U.S. government.

The study's findings represent the analysis of many of the Iraqi Freedom documents and related interviews. In particular, the project concluded that: (1) Saddam's secretive and authoritarian government, together with his paranoia, rendered the Iraqi army grossly unprepared for conflict with coalition forces; (2) Saddam grossly miscalculated the ability of his contacts with the Russian, French, Chinese and other governments to prevent military action against Iraq, and (3) although Iraq almost certainly did not possess weapons of mass destruction, Saddam's desire to preserve ambiguity on the issue, together with his government's secrecy and previous attempts to deceive UN inspectors made it difficult for Iraq to convince the world that it had disarmed.

Many of the documents seem to make clear that Saddam's regime had given up on seeking a WMD capability by the mid-1990s. As AP reported, "Repeatedly in the transcripts, Saddam and his lieutenants remind each other that Iraq destroyed its chemical and biological weapons in the early 1990s, and shut down those programs and the nuclear-bomb program, which had never produced a weapon." At one 1996 presidential meeting, top weapons program official Amer Mohammed Rashid, describes his conversation with UN weapons inspector Rolf Ekeus: "We don't have anything to hide, so we're giving you all the details." At another meeting Saddam told his deputies, "We cooperated with the resolutions 100 percent and you all know that, and the 5 percent they claim we have not executed could take them 10 years to (verify). Don't think for a minute that we still have WMD. We have nothing."
 
2013-03-20 01:41:00 AM

Kurmudgeon: Yogimus: I can respect a villain, not so much the coward.

Good, you must have much more respect for John Kerry, Max Cleland and others who served than Bush who got nowhere near Vietnam and Cheney who had "other priorities".


He was busy killing Mace Windu.
 
2013-03-20 01:41:29 AM

Generation_D: When do the easily deluded, easily conned followers get their share of the blame/credit for the military debacles of history?

Never. Its always those poor noble men and women who were led astray.


I wonder what you get out of framing it this way. Even I knew in 2003 invading Iraq was stupid; just about everyone I knew and talked to at the time did. But somehow, there were people in my group of friends who joined anyway. Apparently their reasoning is not something you are capable of understanding and in fact feel the need to crap on.... which frankly says more about you than them.
 
2013-03-20 01:42:51 AM

pkt729: I have a crazy idea that would make a lot of people happy, order an arrest warrant for George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Karl Rove for their involvement in ordering a war that should have never happened.


hurrr hurrr hurrr yeah!
 
2013-03-20 01:43:33 AM

middleoftheday: I wonder what you get out of framing it this way. Even I knew in 2003 invading Iraq was stupid; just about everyone I knew and talked to at the time did. But somehow, there were people in my group of friends who joined anyway. Apparently their reasoning is not something you are capable of understanding and in fact feel the need to crap on.... which frankly says more about you than them.


Deciding to join in with something dangerous and stupid isn't reasoning, it's rationalization.
 
2013-03-20 01:44:23 AM

SurelyShirley: sex0r: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

Too late.  It came in the form of "hope and change."

I thought that was supposed to be socialism.
We need to get our isms straight.


When you're as derpy as  sex0r, you don't understand that there IS a difference between socialism and fascism.
 
2013-03-20 01:44:25 AM
Question:  Why weren't Dubya and Cheney hauled to The Hague as soon as Obama took office?
 
2013-03-20 01:44:29 AM

middleoftheday: I wonder what you get out of framing it this way.


a sense of smug superiority.
 
2013-03-20 01:44:36 AM

Nutsac_Jim: Mentat: And Dick Cheney will never care.

I dont think Barry cares that his Golf game costs 5750 easter egg hunts.  But what is important is to cancel the egg hunt to show you mean business about saving money.


The egg hunt is not canceled.  White House tours are canceled.

Probably mothballed the basement bowling alley that Nixon installed.
 
2013-03-20 01:44:56 AM
Positives:

Al Queda, as we knew it, is over.  Most of this was accomplished via banking regulations and local government crackdowns.
We left Saudi, and moved a permanent residence into Afghanistan/Iraq, stabilizing the Saudi King's seat of power
The separation of powers between congress and the presidency were further muddied
The U.S.A.P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act is now a thing and will never go away.
Being "Patriotic" is now an acceptable excuse to be dumb.

U.S.A! U.S.A!


/I shiat you not: Uniting (and) Strengthening America (by) Providing Appropriate Tools Required (to) Intercept (and) Obstruct Terrorism Act
 
2013-03-20 01:45:12 AM

Corn_Fed: So....how long does it take for a populace to completely forget being duped into a stupid, useless war, and decides to do it again?

By the Vietnam - Iraq example, apparently about 35 to 40 years. I guess we can look forward to the next Republican war around 2040.




I doubt we will have finished this one by then.
 
2013-03-20 01:45:31 AM
blog.gettyimages.com justifiedright.typepad.com
 
2013-03-20 01:45:36 AM

brukmann: lolpix: Obama is going to get a pass too.

As if there was any comparison. Sheesh. Jimmy Carter was probably more of a war criminal.


Obama's administration is worse than Bush's in some ways. They are more prone to prosecuting whistle blowers, decline to prosecute bankers (HSBC) who wittingly launder money for drug cartels and Iran (Iran!), routinely seek to extend and expand the NDAA, expand drone warfare and so-called lily-pad bases to carry out extra-judicial killings and assassinations on their own authority throughout the Middle East and Africa. Obama is cool because he thinks you should have access to health insurance and everyone should quit picking on the gays. On the other hand, a few years ago he went to India as part of a trade PR tour and his personal guest of honor was the CEO of the company that makes the back scatter x-ray machines for use in air ports. In short, don't kid yourself. Obama is charming, but he's not a good guy.
 
2013-03-20 01:45:55 AM

pkt729: I have a crazy idea that would make a lot of people happy, order an arrest warrant for George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Karl Rove for their involvement in ordering a war that should have never happened.


we should have assassinated him, but ultimately the US was responsible for Saddam because we gave him the weapons and money he was using to kill and suppress his own people. we gave him these things to kill iranians of course, and that was just another example of crappy foreign policy....
 
2013-03-20 01:46:20 AM

muck4doo: pkt729: I have a crazy idea that would make a lot of people happy, order an arrest warrant for George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Karl Rove for their involvement in ordering a war that should have never happened.

hurrr hurrr hurrr yeah!


It might restore some faith in America from the rest of the world.

I live in China.  Most expats and locals have this "how could the most powerful country be so dumb" attitude about the whole affair.

It's like realizing you left the keys to the car with your five year old.
 
2013-03-20 01:46:24 AM

pkt729: I have a crazy idea that would make a lot of people happy, order an arrest warrant for George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Karl Rove for their involvement in ordering a war that should have never happened.


Better idea, arrest all republicans! They stand in our way of the brave new world we want to bring!
 
2013-03-20 01:46:33 AM

muck4doo: pkt729: I have a crazy idea that would make a lot of people happy, order an arrest warrant for George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Karl Rove for their involvement in ordering a war that should have never happened.

hurrr hurrr hurrr yeah!


I bet you STILL think you were right in supporting the war, don't you, sucker. Politicians count on people like you.
 
2013-03-20 01:48:38 AM

muck4doo: pkt729: I have a crazy idea that would make a lot of people happy, order an arrest warrant for George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Karl Rove for their involvement in ordering a war that should have never happened.

Better idea, arrest all republicans! They stand in our way of the brave new world we want to bring!


You mean smart people? You're right, smart people do have a dream of a world not overrun with drooling suckers such as yourself.

Call us fools.
 
2013-03-20 01:49:43 AM

pkt729: I have a crazy idea that would make a lot of people happy, order an arrest warrant for George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Karl Rove for their involvement in ordering a war that should have never happened.


Obama should have done this. That's not my crazy liberal fantasy -- if he was really any different than Bush, he would have told the Republicans (and half the Democrats) to shut the fark up and used his entire first term dragging this thing into daylight, no matter where it led.

He'd have been a one-termer for sure, but it would have done more long-term good than anything else he's been up to. This bullshiat will never stop until a rich guy goes to the chair for war crimes.

/lookin' at you and your drone program, Obama...
 
2013-03-20 01:50:23 AM

untaken_name: If you think the people responsible for war care about the people fighting war, you don't yet understand the true nature of war.


i18.photobucket.com
Major General Smedley Butler.
He understood the nature of war.
 
2013-03-20 01:50:28 AM

Confabulat: muck4doo: pkt729: I have a crazy idea that would make a lot of people happy, order an arrest warrant for George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Karl Rove for their involvement in ordering a war that should have never happened.

Better idea, arrest all republicans! They stand in our way of the brave new world we want to bring!

You mean smart people? You're right, smart people do have a dream of a world not overrun with drooling suckers such as yourself.

Call us fools.


Live the dream mr Pol Pot
 
2013-03-20 01:50:56 AM

Confabulat: muck4doo: pkt729: I have a crazy idea that would make a lot of people happy, order an arrest warrant for George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Karl Rove for their involvement in ordering a war that should have never happened.

hurrr hurrr hurrr yeah!

I bet you STILL think you were right in supporting the war, don't you, sucker. Politicians count on people like you.


Do you still think you are "right" for supporting your political side so the other guys don't win? Instead of making sure that every one of those farkers is voted out of office?
 
2013-03-20 01:52:10 AM

Alphax: HideAndGoFarkYourself: Much like the spider hole that dirty bastard was pulled from, I'm fairly sure there are some chemical weapons buried somewhere in Iraq to this day.

Wasn't that the 'spider hole' that Saddam was put in after his capture, then pulled out of, to make him seem more cowardly?


Would you mind giving a citation for that?
 
2013-03-20 01:52:10 AM

Yogimus: Do you still think you are "right" for supporting your political side so the other guys don't win? Instead of making sure that every one of those farkers is voted out of office?


What, vote Nader? hehehe
 
2013-03-20 01:53:13 AM

Confabulat: muck4doo: log_jammin: muck4doo: Good thing you got it back on point

"I know you are but what am i"

Straight to getting back to the point.

Confabulat: muck4doo: pkt729: I have a crazy idea that would make a lot of people happy, order an arrest warrant for George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Karl Rove for their involvement in ordering a war that should have never happened.

hurrr hurrr hurrr yeah!

I bet you STILL think you were right in supporting the war, don't you, sucker. Politicians count on people like you.

I didn't vote on it. Did you?

No, but I didn't spend years on Fark arguing why it was a good idea either.

History has already proven you wrong. Why can't you be man enough to apologize?


Sorry, didn't realize i spent years on fark arguing for it. But forget all that, time to wipe out people  with differing views! It's the Confabulat way.
 
2013-03-20 01:53:44 AM

TOG85: So many of you commenting have never seen Iraq, nor understand anything there, It's a bit sad really.


www.lolwut.com
 
2013-03-20 01:53:48 AM
So you join the military. Get sick. Now pissed that you where expected to fight im a military action because well you joined the military. So today's military is just the post office. A bunch of guys that dont want to work. Dont want to do the job they volunteered for. Pick and choose what orders to follow. Well its definitely an example of the past few generations. Im sorry your sick. Im sorry your going out this way. I know your mad this is the way your going out. But grow a pair.

And get over it. This has been Obama war for what 5 years now. Has he pulled all the troops out no. And this war crimes crap needs to go away.
 
2013-03-20 01:54:12 AM

muck4doo: Drone strikes are awesome.


No, they aren't. They are creating more enemies than they are removing.
 
2013-03-20 01:54:50 AM

neaorin: muck4doo: Drone strikes are awesome.

No, they aren't. They are creating more enemies than they are removing.


And then killing them.
 
2013-03-20 01:55:41 AM

lolpix: brukmann: lolpix: Obama is going to get a pass too.

As if there was any comparison. Sheesh. Jimmy Carter was probably more of a war criminal.

Obama's administration is worse than Bush's in some ways. They are more prone to prosecuting whistle blowers, decline to prosecute bankers (HSBC) who wittingly launder money for drug cartels and Iran (Iran!), routinely seek to extend and expand the NDAA, expand drone warfare and so-called lily-pad bases to carry out extra-judicial killings and assassinations on their own authority throughout the Middle East and Africa. Obama is cool because he thinks you should have access to health insurance and everyone should quit picking on the gays. On the other hand, a few years ago he went to India as part of a trade PR tour and his personal guest of honor was the CEO of the company that makes the back scatter x-ray machines for use in air ports. In short, don't kid yourself. Obama is charming, but he's not a good guy.


Exactly. You're describing a normal POTUS vs. war criminals. There is no real comparison. Not that it's apples to oranges, that it's 1000:1 on the bullshiat scale. But thanks for insulting me by suggesting i'm a starry-eyed moron. Which, btw, i have found in exactly zero Obama supporters, as it is another right-wing fantasy.
 
2013-03-20 01:57:00 AM

Yogimus: neaorin: muck4doo: Drone strikes are awesome.

No, they aren't. They are creating more enemies than they are removing.

And then killing them.


What happened to the whole "interfering with the Muslim world will create more terrorists than we kill" thing around the Iraq war days?

/ In b4 'nobody said that'
 
2013-03-20 01:57:13 AM

Yogimus: neaorin: muck4doo: Drone strikes are awesome.

No, they aren't. They are creating more enemies than they are removing.

And then killing them.


Awesome
 
2013-03-20 01:58:01 AM

kombi: So you join the military. Get sick. Now pissed that you where expected to fight im a military action because well you joined the military. So today's military is just the post office. A bunch of guys that dont want to work. Dont want to do the job they volunteered for. Pick and choose what orders to follow. Well its definitely an example of the past few generations. Im sorry your sick. Im sorry your going out this way. I know your mad this is the way your going out. But grow a pair.

And get over it. This has been Obama war for what 5 years now. Has he pulled all the troops out no. And this war crimes crap needs to go away.


You're drunk, Kombi. Go home.
 
2013-03-20 01:58:19 AM

super_grass: Yogimus: neaorin: muck4doo: Drone strikes are awesome.

No, they aren't. They are creating more enemies than they are removing.

And then killing them.

What happened to the whole "interfering with the Muslim world will create more terrorists than we kill" thing around the Iraq war days?

/ In b4 'nobody said that'


We get it. He's black.
 
2013-03-20 01:58:27 AM
Saddam's fault.  No one else's.
 
2013-03-20 01:59:24 AM

ciberido: Alphax: HideAndGoFarkYourself: Much like the spider hole that dirty bastard was pulled from, I'm fairly sure there are some chemical weapons buried somewhere in Iraq to this day.

Wasn't that the 'spider hole' that Saddam was put in after his capture, then pulled out of, to make him seem more cowardly?

Would you mind giving a citation for that?


I don't have one handy, just something I remembered hearing shortly after his capture.  But as someone else noted, he had a taxi with him.. which means a really, really big hole, or not a hole.
 
2013-03-20 01:59:54 AM

muck4doo: super_grass: Yogimus: neaorin: muck4doo: Drone strikes are awesome.

No, they aren't. They are creating more enemies than they are removing.

And then killing them.

What happened to the whole "interfering with the Muslim world will create more terrorists than we kill" thing around the Iraq war days?

/ In b4 'nobody said that'

We get it. He's black.


HALF black.
 
2013-03-20 02:00:13 AM

STRYPERSWINE: Saddam's fault.  No one else's.


He did what?
 
2013-03-20 02:00:38 AM
Oh and this BS with if you supported the war. Your an idiot, Stupid, Dont think for your self. on and on and on. And if you where opposed to the war you are smart and forward thinking. Thats whats destroying this country. You could talk disagree and move on. Now if you disagree well you live in flyover country anyway so you dont matter. or well your a gun owner so you automatically are dumb and your opinion does not matter. Only the coast matter. We will tell you whats best. Cant we all just get along?
 
2013-03-20 02:01:37 AM
All you people pissing in the wind about Iraq, and no one gives a flying fark about all the other wars going on right now.  You guys are swell.
 
2013-03-20 02:02:07 AM

muck4doo: super_grass: Yogimus: neaorin: muck4doo: Drone strikes are awesome.

No, they aren't. They are creating more enemies than they are removing.

And then killing them.

What happened to the whole "interfering with the Muslim world will create more terrorists than we kill" thing around the Iraq war days?

/ In b4 'nobody said that'

We get it. He's black.


I don't agree with everything Obama said, but he's far from a nobody.
 
2013-03-20 02:02:28 AM

Alphax: STRYPERSWINE: Saddam's fault.  No one else's.

He did what?


Several really dumb decisions.
 
2013-03-20 02:02:36 AM
Back in 2000, there was a lot of "Oh, Bush and Gore are the same thing."

If Gore had actually taken office in 2000, there would never have been an Iraq War.

Morons can try to equivalize the partisan responsibility of the Iraq War, but the truth is that there is no question...the Iraq War was a Republican concoction. It came from their dream lab.
 
2013-03-20 02:02:38 AM

lolpix: Yogimus: You know what makes me weep? How everyone OTHER than those two get a complete pass.

/lookin at you congress

Those two got a complete pass. Criticism is not prosecution. Obama is going to get a pass too. There is something about the collective American psyche that would rather see our homegrown war criminals go free than admit to ourselves that Americans are capable of committing war crimes.




Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great are their heroes and you know what they were. It's insanity.

Letter guy, thank you for your service.

/vet
 
2013-03-20 02:03:01 AM

muck4doo: Fart_Machine: log_jammin: I can never tell if muck4doo is drunk or retarded.

Yes.

Almost as fun as being a democrat


I wouldn't know.
 
2013-03-20 02:03:17 AM

Confabulat: Every American who supported that nonsense war and fell for their bullshiat, when it was plenty obvious even at the time there were major holes in their story, needs to apologize.

I farkin' stood out in the rain with an anti-war sign in traffic. I never do shiat like that but I knew bullshiat when I saw it.

What was your excuse?


That's the thing though, you didn't know, you were opposing Bush and Cheney for your own partisan reasons and / or you hate and oppose any war. The latter I respect much more than the former, but I respect them both. Intelligence organizations around the world were in agreement with our own, you weren't some genius out there in the rain protesting, your gut feeling was just.. well, right. I'll apologize to you, I'm sorry you got wet out there holding that sign accomplishing nothing.
 
2013-03-20 02:04:00 AM

muck4doo: Sorry, didn't realize i spent years on fark arguing for it. But forget all that, time to wipe out people  with differing views! It's the Confabulat way.


I have exactly three Farkers color coded in some sort of "favorited" way. One is an old friend, another doesn't post here anymore, and there's you who I have labeled in red as "right-wing war cultist."

Are you revising your own history now to better fit the present? Sounds typical of losers. There weren't a lot of Nazis in Germany after the Allies won either. And the Commies got awful quiet after the Soviet Union dissolved.

You'd think people would own up to their own opinions, but I guess no one likes knowing they are an idiot.
 
2013-03-20 02:04:05 AM

Yogimus: Alphax: STRYPERSWINE: Saddam's fault.  No one else's.

He did what?

Several really dumb decisions.


Not an answer.
 
2013-03-20 02:04:26 AM

muck4doo: Yogimus: neaorin: muck4doo: Drone strikes are awesome.

No, they aren't. They are creating more enemies than they are removing.

And then killing them.

Awesome


so killing terrorists is like trying to kill Samael the "Hound of Resurrection". maybe not such a great idea,
 
2013-03-20 02:05:32 AM

Alphax: STRYPERSWINE: Saddam's fault.  No one else's.

He did what?


He tried to kill Bush's daddy or something.
 
2013-03-20 02:05:49 AM
Then he held the mic out away from his body, dropped it on the stage... and walked off.


Somebody had to say it.
 
2013-03-20 02:06:34 AM

violentsalvation: That's the thing though, you didn't know, you were opposing Bush and Cheney for your own partisan reasons and / or you hate and oppose any war.


Nah, I don't think that was true at the time. Yeah, I GREW to hate Bush & Cheney but that was their doing, not mine. I wasn't out opposing Afghanistan; I think most Americans were dying to find Bin Laden after 9/11. But a lot of us got pretty upset how they mined that sentiment for their own private war, and let gullible Americans who needed SOMETHING after that terrible day to lead the charge.

I never knew I was a liberal until I was out standing in the rain. Mostly I always just thought I mocked everyone up until that time.
 
2013-03-20 02:06:39 AM

kombi: Oh and this BS with if you supported the war. Your an idiot, Stupid, Dont think for your self. on and on and on. And if you where opposed to the war you are smart and forward thinking. Thats whats destroying this country. You could talk disagree and move on. Now if you disagree well you live in flyover country anyway so you dont matter. or well your a gun owner so you automatically are dumb and your opinion does not matter. Only the coast matter. We will tell you whats best. Cant we all just get along?


Yeah, sorry, you people created that escalation of rhetoric.

America: Love it or leave it!

America! If you are against the iraq war you are a traitor(heard millions of times, by millions of people)

America! If you don't drive giant 12 cylinder SUVs you are some GREEN commie trying to destroy America

Anyone that disagrees with GOP, fundamentalist, militarist goals is a stupid lazy hippy traitor.

It's like you are just now realizing what it feels like to be discriminated against and marginalized. Wake up guy, now you know what it feels like being on the other side of people like you.
 
2013-03-20 02:06:47 AM

StoPPeRmobile: Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great are their heroes and you know what they were.


Leaders who actually fought in the front lines of the wars they started?
 
2013-03-20 02:06:59 AM
brukmann:  Exactly. You're describing a normal POTUS vs. war criminals. There is no real comparison. Not that it's apples to oranges, that it's 1000:1 on the bullshiat scale. But thanks for insulting me by suggesting i'm a starry-eyed moron. Which, btw, i have found in exactly zero Obama supporters, as it is another right-wing fantasy.

If that's a normal President, we're an inherently evil nation. Most of the rest of what you just said is kind of garbled.
 
2013-03-20 02:07:42 AM

violentsalvation: Confabulat: Every American who supported that nonsense war and fell for their bullshiat, when it was plenty obvious even at the time there were major holes in their story, needs to apologize.

I farkin' stood out in the rain with an anti-war sign in traffic. I never do shiat like that but I knew bullshiat when I saw it.

What was your excuse?

That's the thing though, you didn't know, you were opposing Bush and Cheney for your own partisan reasons and / or you hate and oppose any war. The latter I respect much more than the former, but I respect them both. Intelligence organizations around the world were in agreement with our own, you weren't some genius out there in the rain protesting, your gut feeling was just.. well, right. I'll apologize to you, I'm sorry you got wet out there holding that sign accomplishing nothing.


That's exactly where you are wrong. I was listening to the only people who actually knew what they were talking about--the UN inspectors. Contrary to popular conception, they did know what was going on in Iraq. They had the records, they had the evidence, but the intelligence agencies were generally too paranoid to listen to reason.

The evidence pointed strongly to there being no WMD's or any reason to fear Iraq. But intelligence agencies are just as prone to ideological extremism as any other. And they were being ruled by the tinfoil hatters.
 
2013-03-20 02:11:14 AM

Corn_Fed: They had the records, they had the evidence, but the intelligence agencies were generally too paranoid to listen to reason.


The intelligence was being massaged to fit the Bush narrative.  Our intelligence came mainly from Chalabi-connected defectors like Curveball who was a known liar.  Even the Germans who picked him up thought his intel was bullshait.
 
2013-03-20 02:11:44 AM

Corn_Fed: hat's exactly where you are wrong. I was listening to the only people who actually knew what they were talking about--the UN inspectors. Contrary to popular conception, they did know what was going on in Iraq. They had the records, they had the evidence, but the intelligence agencies were generally too paranoid to listen to reason.


Agreed. They were 100% right in hindsight.  Yet we went to war so they could finish their jobs.
 
2013-03-20 02:12:02 AM

Corn_Fed: That's exactly where you are wrong. I was listening to the only people who actually knew what they were talking about--the UN inspectors. Contrary to popular conception, they did know what was going on in Iraq. They had the records, they had the evidence, but the intelligence agencies were generally too paranoid to listen to reason.

The evidence pointed strongly to there being no WMD's or any reason to fear Iraq. But intelligence agencies are just as prone to ideological extremism as any other. And they were being ruled by the tinfoil hatters.


I exactly remember when Bush, et al., refused to let the UN inspectors continue even though they had found nothing. The inspectors pleaded for just a few more weeks, but Bush said "IMMINENT THREAT WE DON'T HAVE SIX WEEKS" and the right-wing echo chamber shouted them down as new world order commie left-wing one-government useless bureaucrats.

Of course, history has proven they were 100% correct, and the Bush administration was 100% wrong.

Find one Republican who will apologize for being wrong. Go on.
 
2013-03-20 02:12:06 AM
Notice log_jammin doesn't take part in Obama's drone wars?
 
2013-03-20 02:12:17 AM

muck4doo: log_jammin: muck4doo: What is the point of yours?

A dying veteran wrote a letter to the two men most responsible for the war that caused him to become paralyzed and injured and killed thousands of other. why did you even need to ask?

now your turn. so what is the point of the thread in your opinion?

Well if he was dying that makes him right. Let's pour a 40 out in his memory.

/My point was to make you look like the the knee jerk emotional idiot that you are
//Thanks for proving me right
///Pours 40 out for log_jammin


Oh you're just here to be a dick.  Mission Accomplished.
 
2013-03-20 02:13:01 AM

untaken_name: If you think the people responsible for war care about the people fighting war, you don't yet understand the true nature of war the American public.



Before we liberated the shiat out of Iraq, a poll was conducted and it showed that 60% of the American public was in favor of bringing democracy to Iraq.
 
2013-03-20 02:13:09 AM

Confabulat: Every American who supported that nonsense war and fell for their bullshiat, when it was plenty obvious even at the time there were major holes in their story, needs to apologize.

I farkin' stood out in the rain with an anti-war sign in traffic. I never do shiat like that but I knew bullshiat when I saw it.

What was your excuse?




Was young and part of the war-machine.
 
2013-03-20 02:13:24 AM
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-03-20 02:13:57 AM

Rug Doctor: he would have told the Republicans (and half the Democrats) to shut the fark up and used his entire first term dragging this thing into daylight, no matter where it led.


Politics dies in the daylight.
 
2013-03-20 02:14:15 AM

Danger Avoid Death: StoPPeRmobile: Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great are their heroes and you know what they were.

Leaders who actually fought in the front lines of the wars they started?


lol.

Oh Poe, I love you so.
 
2013-03-20 02:14:59 AM

muck4doo: Your president you worship is just there to kill people. Mission accomplished.


Who is that again?  You must be projecting from the Bush years.  Have fun with that.
 
2013-03-20 02:15:01 AM

El_Swino: Meh.  Liberal plant.  Not a real American.


Even a lot of conservatives have come to hate Bush and Cheney. But the fact that this guy served his country, got horribly injured and will end up dying because of it means he's not a real American? It's morons like you that make Fark entertaining, whether you're trolling or serious. Either way, you come off looking really stupid and your party affiliation may have something to do with that.
 
2013-03-20 02:15:13 AM

Confabulat: muck4doo: My point was to make you look like the the knee jerk emotional idiot that you are

Why can't you apologize to your fellow Americans for being so wrong?


Why can't your hero apologize to fellow Americans and citizens of the world for being so wrong? Oh, that's right. They're dead.
 
2013-03-20 02:16:05 AM

Corn_Fed: violentsalvation: Confabulat: Every American who supported that nonsense war and fell for their bullshiat, when it was plenty obvious even at the time there were major holes in their story, needs to apologize.

I farkin' stood out in the rain with an anti-war sign in traffic. I never do shiat like that but I knew bullshiat when I saw it.

What was your excuse?

That's the thing though, you didn't know, you were opposing Bush and Cheney for your own partisan reasons and / or you hate and oppose any war. The latter I respect much more than the former, but I respect them both. Intelligence organizations around the world were in agreement with our own, you weren't some genius out there in the rain protesting, your gut feeling was just.. well, right. I'll apologize to you, I'm sorry you got wet out there holding that sign accomplishing nothing.

That's exactly where you are wrong. I was listening to the only people who actually knew what they were talking about--the UN inspectors. Contrary to popular conception, they did know what was going on in Iraq. They had the records, they had the evidence, but the intelligence agencies were generally too paranoid to listen to reason.

The evidence pointed strongly to there being no WMD's or any reason to fear Iraq. But intelligence agencies are just as prone to ideological extremism as any other. And they were being ruled by the tinfoil hatters.


SO when British Intelligence told us about the WMD's. Gee Syria just launched chemical weapons today. And when these fake WMD's where shipped to the US via canada for destruction in the middle of the night. That was all faked? Listen the intelligence may not have been 100% but it still worked. Anyway we put Saddam in there, WE needed to remove him
 
2013-03-20 02:16:10 AM
All of this ongoing horror because some Florida dumbasses couldn't fill out a ballot form properly.
 
2013-03-20 02:16:11 AM

muck4doo: Notice log_jammin doesn't take part in Obama's drone wars?


I got out of the military about 15 years ago. so what's your point?

Oh that's right. You can't speak about the actual topic because you know you're wrong so you have to keep trying to change the subject.
 
2013-03-20 02:16:55 AM

Fart_Machine: muck4doo: Your president you worship is just there to kill people. Mission accomplished.

Who is that again?  You must be projecting from the Bush years.  Have fun with that.


Obama fans denying reality.
 
2013-03-20 02:17:31 AM

Omahawg: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 360x522]


Ya that was dumb.
 
2013-03-20 02:17:44 AM

Abacus9: El_Swino: Meh.  Liberal plant.  Not a real American.

Even a lot of conservatives have come to hate Bush and Cheney. But the fact that this guy served his country, got horribly injured and will end up dying because of it means he's not a real American? It's morons like you that make Fark entertaining, whether you're trolling or serious. Either way, you come off looking really stupid and your party affiliation may have something to do with that.


Whether you take obvious sarcasm at face value, or think it's just trolling, you come off looking really stupid and your party affiliation may have something to do with that.
 
2013-03-20 02:18:17 AM

encyclopediaplushuman: May his passing be quick and with dignity. And that he live his last days with peace of mind.


Sorry, but I'm sure the Freepers are already hounding this guy even as we speak.
 
2013-03-20 02:18:19 AM

muck4doo: Fart_Machine: muck4doo: Your president you worship is just there to kill people. Mission accomplished.

Who is that again?  You must be projecting from the Bush years.  Have fun with that.

Obama fans denying reality.


encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
2013-03-20 02:18:21 AM
 
2013-03-20 02:18:44 AM
muck4doo:

Your president you worship is just there to kill people. Mission accomplished.

Hey muck4doo, did you support the Iraq invasion in 2003? Yes or no?

Do you still think it was a great idea? Yes or no?
 
2013-03-20 02:19:00 AM

SilentStrider: Damn.


You know.. just this.

I could say more but just this
 
2013-03-20 02:19:09 AM

kombi: SO when British Intelligence told us about the WMD's. Gee Syria just launched chemical weapons today. And when these fake WMD's where shipped to the US via canada for destruction in the middle of the night. That was all faked? Listen the intelligence may not have been 100% but it still worked. Anyway we put Saddam in there, WE needed to remove him


Not sure if sane.
 
2013-03-20 02:19:28 AM

sex0r: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

Too late.  It came in the form of "hope and change."


If ignorance was cornflakes, you'd be General Mills.
 
2013-03-20 02:20:16 AM

untaken_name: bhcompy: Let's not get carried away.  Both parties practice corporate fascism pretty openly

This
[i6.photobucket.com image 800x125]
Bears repeating.


So....................vote republican because they're much better at it?
 
2013-03-20 02:20:29 AM

Fart_Machine: muck4doo: Fart_Machine: muck4doo: Your president you worship is just there to kill people. Mission accomplished.

Who is that again?  You must be projecting from the Bush years.  Have fun with that.

Obama fans denying reality.

[encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com image 230x213]


^ I don't care which "side" you fall on... please never get this retarded.  This is like "I'm sorry my kid is acting up" retarded.
 
2013-03-20 02:20:31 AM

Corn_Fed: The evidence pointed strongly to there being no WMD's or any reason to fear Iraq. But intelligence agencies are just as prone to ideological extremism as any other. And they were being ruled by the tinfoil hatters.


I'm older and stay up late a lot. At the time Hans Blix said repeatedly that there was no evidence of Iraq having a WMD program of any consequence. Then, when we decided we wanted a war, everyone hounded Blix asking why he hadn't found any WMD yet. While it was true the Iraqi government hassled the inspectors and shuffled them around a lot, most people believed this was part of Iraq bluffing it's neighbors. Saving face if you will. Most people also suspected that everyone behind the scenes in the intelligence communities felt the same way. At any rate, the war on Iraq obviously wasn't about WMD or terrorism. It was about capturing natural resources and stabilizing international banking. On the other hand, Saddam was famous for having his torturers pull your eyes out and turning them around so you could yourself with your eyes pulled out of the sockets. He probably died a better and more dignified death than he was entitled to. Unfortunately, there were all those people caught in between.
 
2013-03-20 02:20:49 AM

GORDON: I'm sorry, who was it that bore false witness?


Well, for all those late 90's quotes, I recall quite distinctly being told that those people were just trying to help Clinton 'wag the dog' to avoid being impeached as the consequence  a blowjob.

/of course I also recall the UN resolutions being followed then, as opposed to saying "fark that vote required by UNSCR 1441, we're going to go in with a collation of the willing"
 
2013-03-20 02:20:54 AM

Corn_Fed: muck4doo:

Your president you worship is just there to kill people. Mission accomplished.

Hey muck4doo, did you support the Iraq invasion in 2003? Yes or no?

Do you still think it was a great idea? Yes or no?


The first question is irrelevant when reality is seen through an ideological lens.

History ceases to exist.
 
2013-03-20 02:21:40 AM

lolpix: brukmann:  Exactly. You're describing a normal POTUS vs. war criminals. There is no real comparison. Not that it's apples to oranges, that it's 1000:1 on the bullshiat scale. But thanks for insulting me by suggesting i'm a starry-eyed moron. Which, btw, i have found in exactly zero Obama supporters, as it is another right-wing fantasy.

If that's a normal President, we're an inherently evil nation. Most of the rest of what you just said is kind of garbled.


If people can't see the obvious differences between Bush and Obama, it doesn't matter if we're evil since we're going down anyway.
 
2013-03-20 02:21:44 AM

Yogimus: Fart_Machine: muck4doo: Fart_Machine: muck4doo: Your president you worship is just there to kill people. Mission accomplished.

Who is that again?  You must be projecting from the Bush years.  Have fun with that.

Obama fans denying reality.

[encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com image 230x213]

^ I don't care which "side" you fall on... please never get this retarded.  This is like "I'm sorry my kid is acting up" retarded.


He's not my kid.  I hold no responsibility for what he posts.
 
2013-03-20 02:22:22 AM

Alphax: kombi: SO when British Intelligence told us about the WMD's. Gee Syria just launched chemical weapons today. And when these fake WMD's where shipped to the US via canada for destruction in the middle of the night. That was all faked? Listen the intelligence may not have been 100% but it still worked. Anyway we put Saddam in there, WE needed to remove him

Not sure if sane.


How? Very sane. You?
 
2013-03-20 02:22:55 AM

muck4doo: log_jammin: muck4doo: Notice log_jammin doesn't take part in Obama's drone wars?

I got out of the military about 15 years ago. so what's your point?

Oh that's right. You can't speak about the actual topic because you know you're wrong so you have to keep trying to change the subject.

Otherwise you would be killing women and children with obama with glee. Got it.


No. And if you look at my posts from the past I think this whole war against Islam is a bad idea. Muslims are my brothers, and i hate this. Yes Bush was bad, but obama is killing pretty good out there too. I have caught hell here for being against Muslim bashing. Funny it was atrocious under one leader, but is now acceptable under another. Makes me sick.
 
2013-03-20 02:22:56 AM

log_jammin: In what way was the guy who wrote the letter wrong?


I joined the Army two days after the 9/11 attacks. I joined the Army because our country had been attacked. I wanted to strike back at those who had killed some 3,000 of my fellow citizens.
 
2013-03-20 02:23:22 AM

muck4doo: Confabulat: muck4doo: My point was to make you look like the the knee jerk emotional idiot that you are

Why can't you apologize to your fellow Americans for being so wrong?

Why can't your hero apologize to fellow Americans and citizens of the world for being so wrong? Oh, that's right. They're dead.


Who is my hero? Obama? What the hell does Obama have to do with the Iraq War? I think Obama is better than the other guys, but he's no hero. Weird.

You seem to have some sort of mental or emotional breakdown when it comes to discussing modern American history. Apparently you got it all wrong, and now you're unable to exactly process this disconnect in your brain, so you are getting upset about Obama?

Dude. Let it sink in.

History will always record your opinions on the Iraq War were stupid, ignorant, and wrong. Nothing will ever change that. Thousands died while you helplessly clung to your dimwitted beliefs.

Now you cannot own up to it so, uh, Obama's my hero?

You may need therapy, I'm afraid. This does not appear healthy.
 
2013-03-20 02:23:34 AM

lolpix: Hans Blix


Breakin' my balls, Hans!
 
2013-03-20 02:23:57 AM

kombi: Alphax: kombi: SO when British Intelligence told us about the WMD's. Gee Syria just launched chemical weapons today. And when these fake WMD's where shipped to the US via canada for destruction in the middle of the night. That was all faked? Listen the intelligence may not have been 100% but it still worked. Anyway we put Saddam in there, WE needed to remove him

Not sure if sane.

How? Very sane. You?


I wasn't asking you if you were sane.. you're not the one to make that determination.
 
2013-03-20 02:24:48 AM
muck, could you please let this poor man be and stop smoking those god damn gene-engineered tomato seeds?

to all the veterans:

I am sorry.

Can you forgive me for thinking it was right to send you out there?

I was wrong.
 
2013-03-20 02:24:55 AM

sendtodave: log_jammin: In what way was the guy who wrote the letter wrong?

I joined the Army two days after the 9/11 attacks. I joined the Army because our country had been attacked. I wanted to strike back at those who had killed some 3,000 of my fellow citizens.


ok?
 
2013-03-20 02:26:07 AM

log_jammin: sendtodave: log_jammin: In what way was the guy who wrote the letter wrong?

I joined the Army two days after the 9/11 attacks. I joined the Army because our country had been attacked. I wanted to strike back at those who had killed some 3,000 of my fellow citizens.

ok?


OK.

That's how he was wrong.
 
2013-03-20 02:26:41 AM

muck4doo: I have caught hell here for being against Muslim bashing.


Ha! Yes. you're a brave soul to be against bigotry on a site like fark.
 
2013-03-20 02:27:43 AM

AbiNormal: untaken_name: If you think the people responsible for war care about the people fighting war, you don't yet understand the true nature of war the American public.


Before we liberated the shiat out of Iraq, a poll was conducted and it showed that 60% of the American public was in favor of bringing democracy to Iraq.


cdn1.images.videobash.com
 
2013-03-20 02:28:12 AM
Sounds like he was hating life not too long ago ...

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/20/entertainment/ca-body20
 
2013-03-20 02:28:17 AM

Mentat: And Dick Cheney will never care.


And Dick Cheney will never care.
 
2013-03-20 02:28:17 AM

sendtodave: That's how he was wrong.


he's wrong because you joined the army after 9/11? how so?
 
2013-03-20 02:28:26 AM

Kittypie070: muck, could you please let this poor man be and stop smoking those god damn gene-engineered tomato seeds?

to all the veterans:

I am sorry.

Can you forgive me for thinking it was right to send you out there?

I was wrong.


For you, yes. I will shut up now.
 
2013-03-20 02:28:49 AM
Who then You? Im not some conspiracy theories . Look it up. Happened 5-6 years ago. In the middle of the night. Was on the news live. They had to move them thru Canada so they could try to sneak them in. Something about if it went to US port they would have to file a bunch of environmental studies or something. I actually dont think you can really have a conspiracy any more due to the internet.
 
2013-03-20 02:29:34 AM
for alphax and ciberido
re the spider hole issue
here is one link to be considered as you deem appropriate
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9178.htm

elsewhere
memorable quotes

just references to the first cple

cheny  "i had better things to do"
rumsfeld "fungible"

and of course 44. "You know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --interview with CBS News' Katie Couric, Sept. 6, 2006

43. "The same folks that are bombing innocent people in Iraq were the ones who attacked us in America on September the 11th." --Washington, D.C., July 12, 2007

42. "I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being president." --as quoted in Bob Woodward's Bush at War

41. "Oh, no, we're not going to have any casualties." --discussing the Iraq war with Christian Coalition founder Pat Robertson in 2003, as quoted by Robertson

40. 3. "I think I was unprepared for war." -on the biggest regret of his presidency, ABC News interview, Dec. 1, 2008
 
2013-03-20 02:29:44 AM
Aarrgh. Post deleted my comment before the image.

What I said was, It was a verbal poll and sometimes we hear what we wanna hear.
 
2013-03-20 02:30:44 AM

sendtodave: The first question is irrelevant when reality is seen through an ideological lens.

History ceases to exist.


So, um, sorta like blaming two members of the executive branch for a war pretty much universally approved by congress and encouraged by several of our international allies for reasons confirmed by our own intelligence guys?

Not sure being dumb enough to sign up for an infantry tour after 2001 makes this guy's opinion any more insightful or neutral than anyone else's.  Not that I'm a fan of the last administration, but c'mon, why are we down to half-assed blogs today?  Are there not any actual news sources with retrospectives on the war we could be greening?
 
2013-03-20 02:31:23 AM

lolpix: Corn_Fed: The evidence pointed strongly to there being no WMD's or any reason to fear Iraq. But intelligence agencies are just as prone to ideological extremism as any other. And they were being ruled by the tinfoil hatters.

I'm older and stay up late a lot. At the time Hans Blix said repeatedly that there was no evidence of Iraq having a WMD program of any consequence. Then, when we decided we wanted a war, everyone hounded Blix asking why he hadn't found any WMD yet. While it was true the Iraqi government hassled the inspectors and shuffled them around a lot, most people believed this was part of Iraq bluffing it's neighbors. Saving face if you will. Most people also suspected that everyone behind the scenes in the intelligence communities felt the same way. At any rate, the war on Iraq obviously wasn't about WMD or terrorism. It was about capturing natural resources and stabilizing international banking. On the other hand, Saddam was famous for having his torturers pull your eyes out and turning them around so you could yourself with your eyes pulled out of the sockets. He probably died a better and more dignified death than he was entitled to. Unfortunately, there were all those people caught in between.




Remember when Sadam complained about Kuwait slant drilling so the the borders were re-drawn?
 
2013-03-20 02:31:47 AM

sendtodave: Abacus9: El_Swino: Meh.  Liberal plant.  Not a real American.

Even a lot of conservatives have come to hate Bush and Cheney. But the fact that this guy served his country, got horribly injured and will end up dying because of it means he's not a real American? It's morons like you that make Fark entertaining, whether you're trolling or serious. Either way, you come off looking really stupid and your party affiliation may have something to do with that.

Whether you take obvious sarcasm at face value, or think it's just trolling, you come off looking really stupid and your party affiliation may have something to do with that.


You never know on Fark, people have some pretty wild opinions. And I don't have a party affiliation. But I wasn't really talking to you anyway, jackass.
 
2013-03-20 02:33:46 AM

Jim_Callahan: Are there not any actual news sources with retrospectives on the war we could be greening?


Dunno.. I wouldn't exactly expect quality out of them.
 
2013-03-20 02:34:16 AM

log_jammin: sendtodave: That's how he was wrong.

he's wrong because you joined the army after 9/11? how so?


Oh, I see.  My mistake.

FTFA: I joined the Army two days after the 9/11 attacks. I joined the Army because our country had been attacked. I wanted to strike back at those who had killed some 3,000 of my fellow citizens.

/it was a quote
//he was wrong in thinking that, as a soldier, he could support one war and not another
 
2013-03-20 02:35:05 AM

Alphax: kombi: Alphax: kombi: SO when British Intelligence told us about the WMD's. Gee Syria just launched chemical weapons today. And when these fake WMD's where shipped to the US via canada for destruction in the middle of the night. That was all faked? Listen the intelligence may not have been 100% but it still worked. Anyway we put Saddam in there, WE needed to remove him

Not sure if sane.

How? Very sane. You?

I wasn't asking you if you were sane.. you're not the one to make that determination.


Who then You? Im not some conspiracy theories . Look it up. Happened 5-6 years ago. In the middle of the night. Was on the news live. They had to move them thru Canada so they could try to sneak them in. Something about if it went to US port they would have to file a bunch of environmental studies or something. I actually dont think you can really have a conspiracy any more due to the internet.
 
2013-03-20 02:35:59 AM

Jim_Callahan: why are we down to half-assed blogs today?


We have glimpsed the future of news, and it is random blogs.
 
2013-03-20 02:36:14 AM
Jim_Callahan:
So, um, sorta like blaming two members of the executive branch for a war pretty much universally approved by congress and encouraged by several of our international allies for reasons confirmed by our own intelligence guys?

Um, yeah, just for review...

Those two members of the executive branch:

- dreamed it up
- planned the war
- promoted the war
- sold the war to everyone else



Let's not whitewash the fact that  it was ALL THEIR IDEA. They're completely responsible.
 
2013-03-20 02:37:03 AM

Abacus9: jackass


:D
 
2013-03-20 02:37:18 AM
Any service members verify him through AKO?
 
2013-03-20 02:37:35 AM

kombi: Alphax: kombi: Alphax: kombi: SO when British Intelligence told us about the WMD's. Gee Syria just launched chemical weapons today. And when these fake WMD's where shipped to the US via canada for destruction in the middle of the night. That was all faked? Listen the intelligence may not have been 100% but it still worked. Anyway we put Saddam in there, WE needed to remove him

Not sure if sane.

How? Very sane. You?

I wasn't asking you if you were sane.. you're not the one to make that determination.

Who then You? Im not some conspiracy theories . Look it up. Happened 5-6 years ago. In the middle of the night. Was on the news live. They had to move them thru Canada so they could try to sneak them in. Something about if it went to US port they would have to file a bunch of environmental studies or something. I actually dont think you can really have a conspiracy any more due to the internet.


Citation, please.
 
2013-03-20 02:37:49 AM
StoPPeRmobile:  Remember when Sadam complained about Kuwait slant drilling so the the borders were re-drawn?

I don't remember it happening that way. I remember Iraq rolling a bunch of tanks into Kuwait and claiming a big chunk of Kuwait. Then a bunch of my friends had to go play army. I suppose we all  would have enlisted if the fight had lasted more than a week. But I guess that says something about soldiering. They tend to recruit the young. Young people often aren't as politically aware or nuanced as they'll grow up to be.
 
2013-03-20 02:38:41 AM

Corn_Fed: Jim_Callahan:
So, um, sorta like blaming two members of the executive branch for a war pretty much universally approved by congress and encouraged by several of our international allies for reasons confirmed by our own intelligence guys?

Um, yeah, just for review...

Those two members of the executive branch:

- dreamed it up
- planned the war
- promoted the war
- sold the war to everyone else


Let's not whitewash the fact that  it was ALL THEIR IDEA. They're completely responsible.


Bush didn't dream up going to Iraq.  His "thinkers" did.

Sincerely,
Elliott Abrams    Richard L. Armitage    William J. Bennett
Jeffrey Bergner    John Bolton    Paula Dobriansky
Francis Fukuyama    Robert Kagan    Zalmay Khalilzad
William Kristol    Richard Perle    Peter W. Rodman
Donald Rumsfeld    William Schneider, Jr.    Vin Weber
Paul Wolfowitz    R. James Woolsey    Robert B. Zoellick
 
2013-03-20 02:40:05 AM
kombi:  I actually dont think you can really have a conspiracy any more due to the internet.

static01.mediaite.com
 
2013-03-20 02:40:22 AM

sendtodave: /it was a quote


That makes much more sense.

sendtodave: //he was wrong in thinking that, as a soldier, he could support one war and not another


2 days after 9/11 Iraq wasn't being talked about (minus a pundit or two). at that time it was completely realistic to think we would go into Afghanistan and not a completely unrelated country. second, he can "support" one war and not another. He still has to(and did) fulfill his obligations, but he can choose to support one, both or none.
 
2013-03-20 02:41:12 AM

sendtodave: Jim_Callahan: why are we down to half-assed blogs today?

We have glimpsed the future of news, and it is random blogs.




The American Dark Ages are on their way.
 
2013-03-20 02:42:08 AM

sendtodave: Corn_Fed: Jim_Callahan:
So, um, sorta like blaming two members of the executive branch for a war pretty much universally approved by congress and encouraged by several of our international allies for reasons confirmed by our own intelligence guys?

Um, yeah, just for review...

Those two members of the executive branch:

- dreamed it up
- planned the war
- promoted the war
- sold the war to everyone else


Let's not whitewash the fact that  it was ALL THEIR IDEA. They're completely responsible.

Bush didn't dream up going to Iraq.  His "thinkers" did.

Sincerely,
Elliott Abrams    Richard L. Armitage    William J. Bennett
Jeffrey Bergner    John Bolton    Paula Dobriansky
Francis Fukuyama    Robert Kagan    Zalmay Khalilzad
William Kristol    Richard Perle    Peter W. Rodman
Donald Rumsfeld    William Schneider, Jr.    Vin Weber
Paul Wolfowitz    R. James Woolsey    Robert B. Zoellick


Wolfowitz was gunning for Iraq as early as 1998. http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqsep1898.htm
 
2013-03-20 02:42:34 AM

Corn_Fed: kombi: Alphax: kombi: Alphax: kombi: SO when British Intelligence told us about the WMD's. Gee Syria just launched chemical weapons today. And when these fake WMD's where shipped to the US via canada for destruction in the middle of the night. That was all faked? Listen the intelligence may not have been 100% but it still worked. Anyway we put Saddam in there, WE needed to remove him

Not sure if sane.

How? Very sane. You?

I wasn't asking you if you were sane.. you're not the one to make that determination.

Who then You? Im not some conspiracy theories . Look it up. Happened 5-6 years ago. In the middle of the night. Was on the news live. They had to move them thru Canada so they could try to sneak them in. Something about if it went to US port they would have to file a bunch of environmental studies or something. I actually dont think you can really have a conspiracy any more due to the internet.

Citation, please.


http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/us_did_find_iraq_wmd_AYiL gN bw7pDf7AZ3RO9qnM
http://www.bloggernews.net/116579  Will try to find better link
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-07-07/us/iraq.uranium_1_yellowcake-uran iu m-cameco?_s=PM:US

Ok was 2008 and I got part of the story wrong. They processed it and shipped it to US
 
2013-03-20 02:43:18 AM
I'm not sure why a military response was felt to be appropriate after 9/11.. though it's what bin Laden wanted to happen.  Even during 9/11, it seemed like the work of a James Bond villain.  So, send in the superspies, right?
 
2013-03-20 02:44:04 AM

Fart_Machine: kombi:  I actually dont think you can really have a conspiracy any more due to the internet.

[static01.mediaite.com image 340x219]


When I say that I mean things get out. Computers hacks that kind of thing. Idiots cant keep there mouths shut.
 
2013-03-20 02:44:45 AM

Alphax: I'm not sure why a military response was felt to be appropriate after 9/11.. though it's what bin Laden wanted to happen.  Even during 9/11, it seemed like the work of a James Bond villain.  So, send in the superspies, right?


Reichstag fire.
 
2013-03-20 02:44:56 AM
i1182.photobucket.com
 
2013-03-20 02:46:14 AM

kombi: Ok was 2008 and I got part of the story wrong. They processed it and shipped it to US


Um, that was already accounted for.
 
2013-03-20 02:48:10 AM

Captain Steroid: [i1182.photobucket.com image 640x360]


Says the guy with a Gundam in a Ghille suit.
 
2013-03-20 02:48:38 AM

Alphax: I'm not sure why a military response was felt to be appropriate after 9/11.. though it's what bin Laden wanted to happen.  Even during 9/11, it seemed like the work of a James Bond villain.  So, send in the superspies, right?


No. Send in the Bond Girls. Nothing drives religious nutjobs of any and every creed more bonkers than boobies.
 
2013-03-20 02:49:11 AM

lolpix: Wolfowitz was gunning for Iraq as early as 1998. http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqsep1898.htm


Yeah, those were the signatories of the PNAC "Mr. Clinton, let's go party in the desert" letter in 98.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm
 
2013-03-20 02:50:35 AM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-03-20 02:51:13 AM

Danger Avoid Death: Alphax: I'm not sure why a military response was felt to be appropriate after 9/11.. though it's what bin Laden wanted to happen.  Even during 9/11, it seemed like the work of a James Bond villain.  So, send in the superspies, right?

No. Send in the Bond Girls. Nothing drives religious nutjobs of any and every creed more bonkers than boobies.


Perhaps Xenia Onatopp could have squeezed bin Laden to death between her thighs..
 
2013-03-20 02:52:23 AM
kombi

pls reference the ellsberg papers from the nixon era
ellsberg offered the observation that some secrets dont get out and will not get out unless there is an inside struggle

example the "secret bombings of cambodia"
really now - the cambodians knew and the viet namese knew so the chinese and russians knew
so most of the world knew of it, but not the people paying for it

wiki - An official four years earlier than previously believed.

so yes secrets can be kept
at least in this case to the point that no one cares
 
2013-03-20 02:52:48 AM

kombi: Corn_Fed: kombi: Alphax: kombi: Alphax: kombi: SO when British Intelligence told us about the WMD's. Gee Syria just launched chemical weapons today. And when these fake WMD's where shipped to the US via canada for destruction in the middle of the night. That was all faked? Listen the intelligence may not have been 100% but it still worked. Anyway we put Saddam in there, WE needed to remove him

Not sure if sane.

How? Very sane. You?

I wasn't asking you if you were sane.. you're not the one to make that determination.

Who then You? Im not some conspiracy theories . Look it up. Happened 5-6 years ago. In the middle of the night. Was on the news live. They had to move them thru Canada so they could try to sneak them in. Something about if it went to US port they would have to file a bunch of environmental studies or something. I actually dont think you can really have a conspiracy any more due to the internet.

Citation, please.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/us_did_find_iraq_wmd_AYiL gN bw7pDf7AZ3RO9qnM
http://www.bloggernews.net/116579  Will try to find better link
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-07-07/us/iraq.uranium_1_yellowcake-uran iu m-cameco?_s=PM:US

Ok was 2008 and I got part of the story wrong. They processed it and shipped it to US


Yeah, that's the stuff that was already known about, tagged, and sealed by UNSCOM in the 90's.
 
2013-03-20 02:55:11 AM

Confabulat: Every American who supported that nonsense war and fell for their bullshiat, when it was plenty obvious even at the time there were major holes in their story, needs to apologize.

I farkin' stood out in the rain with an anti-war sign in traffic. I never do shiat like that but I knew bullshiat when I saw it.

What was your excuse?


I marched in Washington with a bunch of other people.
 
2013-03-20 02:55:19 AM
 
2013-03-20 02:55:55 AM

log_jammin: He still has to(and did) fulfill his obligations, but he can choose to support one, both or none.


Well, OK.  I just didn't see Americans take a particularly nuanced approach to war.  It's either "You support war, or you don't."

All the wars.

Japan attacked us, and so we went after Hitler.  We were seen as heroes.

Some mujahideen attacked us, and so we went after Saddam.  Not so much.

But in any case, you rile up the American people, and it doesn't matter the target.

So, maybe he was descriminate when he knee-jerk joined the military.  But, if he was typical, he was pro-war when he signed up, not just pro-war in Afganistan.
 
2013-03-20 02:55:59 AM

bindlestiff2600: kombi

pls reference the ellsberg papers from the nixon era
ellsberg offered the observation that some secrets dont get out and will not get out unless there is an inside struggle

example the "secret bombings of cambodia"
really now - the cambodians knew and the viet namese knew so the chinese and russians knew
so most of the world knew of it, but not the people paying for it

wiki - An official four years earlier than previously believed.

so yes secrets can be kept
at least in this case to the point that no one cares


Dont think so. Not now with our connected world. Even when a country cuts internet feeds it still comes out. Now during Nixon that was a different world than the one we live in now.
 
2013-03-20 02:56:25 AM

Alphax: Danger Avoid Death: Alphax: I'm not sure why a military response was felt to be appropriate after 9/11.. though it's what bin Laden wanted to happen.  Even during 9/11, it seemed like the work of a James Bond villain.  So, send in the superspies, right?

No. Send in the Bond Girls. Nothing drives religious nutjobs of any and every creed more bonkers than boobies.

Perhaps Xenia Onatopp could have squeezed bin Laden to death between her thighs..


Not a bad way to go, really.
 
2013-03-20 02:56:44 AM

Dahnkster: [i.imgur.com image 500x338]


blogs-images.forbes.com
YES
 
2013-03-20 02:57:41 AM
COWARD.....NO MORE, NO LESS          QUIT YOUR WHINING
 
2013-03-20 02:59:38 AM

kombi: Dont think so. Not now with our connected world. Even when a country cuts internet feeds it still comes out. Now during Nixon that was a different world than the one we live in now.


Yeah. We weren't involved in any senseless wars we started for spurious reasons.
Oh... wait ...
Nevermind.
 
2013-03-20 03:02:56 AM

Procedural Texture: Since WW2, the United States of America have slaughtered more civilians than were killed in the holocaust. fark the USA.


Yeah...that smells like bullshiat. Got a citation for that?

It's not that I don't doubt that America has done some truly horrible things, or that sheer casualty counts create some kind of relative morality-- I just don't see any reason to exaggerate them.
 
2013-03-20 03:04:32 AM
where is his protest letter from before he was wounded?
 
2013-03-20 03:05:41 AM

Danger Avoid Death: kombi: Dont think so. Not now with our connected world. Even when a country cuts internet feeds it still comes out. Now during Nixon that was a different world than the one we live in now.

Yeah. We weren't involved in any senseless wars we started for spurious reasons.
Oh... wait ...
Nevermind.


? Never said that. My great grand farther was shot down over Russia during the "Cold War" A Air Japan (I think) was shot down over Russia because the thought it was a disguised US aircraft. I thought that was just a cold war. No shots fired At least thats what we have been told. And really all war is senseless but sometimes it just needs to be done.
 
2013-03-20 03:05:42 AM

stonelotus: where is his protest letter from before he was wounded?


Blown up, sir.
 
2013-03-20 03:05:56 AM

sendtodave: Japan attacked us, and so we went after Hitler. We were seen as heroes.

Some mujahideen attacked us, and so we went after Saddam. Not so much.

But in any case, you rile up the American people, and it doesn't matter the target.

So, maybe he was descriminate when he knee-jerk joined the military. But, if he was typical, he was pro-war when he signed up, not just pro-war in Afganistan.


Japan attacked us, then Germany declared war in us. It's not even remotely comparable.

As for him being "pro-war" in general, that's one big ass assumption about him, and everyone else who has ever been in the military. It's not only possible, but reasonable, to support the war in Afghanistan and not Iraq.
 
2013-03-20 03:09:45 AM
10 years ago today I graduated from basic training. I was in Iraq 6 months later. I was against the war but that didn't matter, I signed up and accept responsibility for my actions. Now I need my country to be responsible for its actions. I'm talking about the VA disability backlog. These men and women have fought for ten years straight and now they are fighting for disability benefits . Almost a million vets are waiting on average of 300 days to receive benefits to help with the injuries they have. It's our obligation to care for these people and we are dropping the ball. IAVA (Iraq Afghanistan Vets of America) has a petition to try and get the backlog eliminated. Sign it. Donate time or money. Whether you agreed with the war or not doesn't matter, we have an obligation to care for these people and it's not getting done. FARK does some really good things and I'd love to see this community take up this fight. If we can raise money to buy Joe Biden car, we should be able to do something.We can disagree about everything under the sun but we should be able to agree that no injured veteran should have to wait upwards of a year for help./help us Fark/can't post links but you can find them/sorry about the wall of text phone no likey fark
 
2013-03-20 03:12:49 AM

kombi: Oh and this BS with if you supported the war. Your an idiot, Stupid, Dont think for your self. on and on and on. And if you where opposed to the war you are smart and forward thinking. Thats whats destroying this country. You could talk disagree and move on. Now if you disagree well you live in flyover country anyway so you dont matter. or well your a gun owner so you automatically are dumb and your opinion does not matter. Only the coast matter. We will tell you whats best. Cant we all just get along?


Except, you know, people don't actually say that.  Or rather, liberals don't say that.  Conservatives SAY that liberals say it, but that's mainly paranoid projection.
 
2013-03-20 03:13:06 AM

lolpix: brukmann:  Exactly. You're describing a normal POTUS vs. war criminals. There is no real comparison. Not that it's apples to oranges, that it's 1000:1 on the bullshiat scale. But thanks for insulting me by suggesting i'm a starry-eyed moron. Which, btw, i have found in exactly zero Obama supporters, as it is another right-wing fantasy.

If that's a normal President, we're an inherently evil nation. Most of the rest of what you just said is kind of garbled.


All nations are inherently evil. And most believe that they're the best country on earth. Ours is no different.
 
2013-03-20 03:14:03 AM

kombi: Danger Avoid Death: kombi: Dont think so. Not now with our connected world. Even when a country cuts internet feeds it still comes out. Now during Nixon that was a different world than the one we live in now.

Yeah. We weren't involved in any senseless wars we started for spurious reasons.
Oh... wait ...
Nevermind.

? Never said that. My great grand farther was shot down over Russia during the "Cold War" A Air Japan (I think) was shot down over Russia because the thought it was a disguised US aircraft. I thought that was just a cold war. No shots fired At least thats what we have been told. And really all war is senseless but sometimes it just needs to be done.


Google "irony".
 
2013-03-20 03:15:09 AM
Term limits, for all of Congress. After two terms in either House or Senate, you're done. That is all you get. If you are very good, the other house might take you, but after that, you have to go and live in the country you created. Liberal and Conservative alike.

No more making a career of public service.

No more getting rich on the people's dime and sending the people's army to make you richer.

No more six-figure salaries and lifetime benefits ON TOP of the ability to enrich yourself by colluding with war criminals. You get paid to do the job, and when the job is done, you get to go get another job, or retire, but the people do not care for you for life. That is what soldiers get, not the people who murder them.

No more eternal incumbencies to the point where the overwhelming majority of the people in charge of laws pertaining to the Internet can remember when color TV was new and no member of Congress can remember what minimum wage felt like.

No more stagnation, and no more accountability shoved under the rug because 'well, he's got seniority in the party.' Hell with that.

In politics as in biology, speeding up the turnover helps things evolve and improve faster.

I say we speed it the hell up, now. If we can essentially flip Congress inside of ten years, we CAN see everyone responsible for Iraq punished. Clear them all out and start over.
 
2013-03-20 03:16:03 AM
The most important lesson you will ever learn is the one that they just won't teach you in school: Nationalism blows all sorts of donkey cock. No child is born into this world waving a flag, we are indoctrinated with revisionist history and stirring ceremony. The sooner we unlearn these teachings the better off we are because we won't sign up to die for terribly executed principles.
 
2013-03-20 03:16:45 AM

fusillade762: StoPPeRmobile: Remember when Sadam complained about Kuwait slant drilling so the the borders were re-drawn?

Saddam even asked permission first (sort of):

Saddam Hussein - If we could keep the whole of the Shatt al Arab - our strategic goal in our war with Iran - we will make concessions (to the Kuwaitis). But, if we are forced to choose between keeping half of the Shatt and the whole of Iraq (i.e., in Saddam s view, including Kuwait ) then we will give up all of the Shatt to defend our claims on Kuwait to keep the whole of Iraq in the shape we wish it to be. (pause) What is the United States' opinion on this?

U.S. Ambassador Glaspie - We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960′s, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America. (Saddam smiles)


Thanks but that's not a scholarly source.
 
2013-03-20 03:17:41 AM
This letter is refreshing.

In my redneck mountain town, we're overrun with the kind of vets that went overseas to fight for our freedom, then came back home to fight against it.
 
2013-03-20 03:17:57 AM
kombi

Dont think so. Not now with our connected world. Even when a country cuts internet feeds it still comes out. Now during Nixon that was a different world than the one we live in now.

(note ive attempted to reduce my snark level but its hard)

i hope you are and will be right
i counter claim tho that the info could be out there but untill a minion takes pictures theres no traction to the story

that could be all we have to count on
 
2013-03-20 03:18:14 AM
To everyone who says "b. . .b. . .but all these other countries believed the intel too!"

Other countries had  suspicionsbut were not persuaded enough to join the war, which is why the "coalition of the willing" was almost fleshed out with mine-hunting monkeys.  So we had a bunch of troops from Great Britain, some from Poland  and that's just about it. France and Germany were not persuaded along with a bunch of other countries a lot of war cheerleaders point to now as believing the intel about WMD.

Again, the had reason to be suspicious (hence why they supported sending in inspectors,) but not enough to actually endorse war.  It's not black and white, dipshiats.  You can't start a farking war on a slight suspicion.  Well, you  can,but history has shown yet again you really shouldn't.

Yes, the French surrender monkeys (different from the mine-hunting monkeys,) were right.  Hence  freedom fries.

Stop rewriting history.  YOU WERE WRONG>
 
2013-03-20 03:18:43 AM
I was one of the RINOs that was warning you all.
I told you.
We told you.
WE TOLD YOU.
I forgive you. Good luck in your beliefs. We were wrong and we will pay the price.
We were wrong.
We will pay.
 
2013-03-20 03:19:08 AM

Kurmudgeon: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

And yet as a Christian and a Democrat, I never supported Dubya, Dick or the GOP to the point I've lost family and friends over this issue. Bush 2 Administration bore false witness to wage war.
That is not a Christian value. Oh well, I'm sure someone will knee jerk post this Sinclair Lewis quote inaccurately once again.


The cross does not implicate just the Christian religion. It's representative of all intersecting sticks.

/Trying my Monty Python "cheesemaker" joke.
 
2013-03-20 03:19:36 AM

SpiderQueenDemon: Term limits, for all of Congress. After two terms in either House or Senate, you're done. That is all you get. If you are very good, the other house might take you, but after that, you have to go and live in the country you created. Liberal and Conservative alike.

No more making a career of public service.


The downside is rookie politicians with veteran lobbyists.  'Welcome to DC, here's how you will vote while you're here.'
 
2013-03-20 03:21:19 AM

ficklefkrfark: muck4doo: log_jammin: muck4doo: Notice log_jammin doesn't take part in Obama's drone wars?

I got out of the military about 15 years ago. so what's your point?

Oh that's right. You can't speak about the actual topic because you know you're wrong so you have to keep trying to change the subject.

Otherwise you would be killing women and children with obama with glee. Got it.

You are the most bleeding heart republican I have ever met.....getting upset over people dying in drone attacks? You probably have called for a " glass parking lot" or a "second amendment solution" yet you cry like a little biatch with a boo boo when a pussy socialist surgically kills some 'ferner.
/being a badass means always being a badass...no getting soft there tough guy


Wrong is wrong and murder is wrong no matter who is doing it. I've said it for years. Glad you love your new war mongering ways though. Go kill some more women and children with your murdering president. Blasting away brown people to freedom, yeah!
 
2013-03-20 03:23:53 AM
muck4doo-

You still haven't answered my simple question:

Did you support the Iraq invasion in 2003? Yes or no?

(If so) do you still think it was a good idea? Yes or no?
 
2013-03-20 03:25:18 AM

Owangotang: The most important lesson you will ever learn is the one that they just won't teach you in school: Nationalism blows all sorts of donkey cock.


Pfft. My second grade teacher wrote that on the blackboard on the first day.
 
2013-03-20 03:28:15 AM

Alphax: SpiderQueenDemon: Term limits, for all of Congress. After two terms in either House or Senate, you're done. That is all you get. If you are very good, the other house might take you, but after that, you have to go and live in the country you created. Liberal and Conservative alike.

No more making a career of public service.

The downside is rookie politicians with veteran lobbyists.  'Welcome to DC, here's how you will vote while you're here.'


Agreed. Term limits are a lobbyist's wet dream. Rookie politicians are enormously cheaper to own than multi-term incumbents with name-recognition and clout.
 
2013-03-20 03:30:01 AM

Corn_Fed: You still haven't answered my simple question:


and he won't. he's incapable of admitting he was wrong.
 
2013-03-20 03:30:47 AM

Corn_Fed: muck4doo-

You still haven't answered my simple question:

Did you support the Iraq invasion in 2003? Yes or no?

(If so) do you still think it was a good idea? Yes or no?


No.
 
2013-03-20 03:32:32 AM
GORDON:  The man actually worked with Congress that wasn't of his party.  Bills got signed.  Budgets got passed.  He had half the unemployment numbers of Obama.  Yet, he was the moron and Obama is the great leader.

Hey, anybody remember, "Bush Derangement Syndrome?"


Yeah because the other party was not hell-bent on farking him on every turn, being against him just to be against him.
That is the legacy of the Republicans in Congress since Obama.  Unemployment is correlated to the economy-and Dubya inherited a boom from Clinton, and under him it turned into the Great Recession.
 
2013-03-20 03:41:58 AM

muck4doo: Corn_Fed: muck4doo-

You still haven't answered my simple question:

Did you support the Iraq invasion in 2003? Yes or no?

(If so) do you still think it was a good idea? Yes or no?

No.


Incredible! A conservative who didn't support the Iraq invasion in 2003!  I hope the Smithsonian documents your genus and species, as you are certainly a very rare specimen!

I suppose you also railed against Bush's profligate spending, urging fiscal restraint and great concern about the deficit, all throughout his two terms?
 
2013-03-20 03:46:27 AM

Corn_Fed: muck4doo: Corn_Fed: muck4doo-

You still haven't answered my simple question:

Did you support the Iraq invasion in 2003? Yes or no?

(If so) do you still think it was a good idea? Yes or no?

No.

Incredible! A conservative who didn't support the Iraq invasion in 2003!  I hope the Smithsonian documents your genus and species, as you are certainly a very rare specimen!

I suppose you also railed against Bush's profligate spending, urging fiscal restraint and great concern about the deficit, all throughout his two terms?


He spent like a drunken sailor visiting a Thai whore house. Conservatives complained about it back then. Where have you been?
 
2013-03-20 03:46:51 AM

muck4doo: 0bama is exactly and precisely equivalent to Bush!!


STOP THAT.

Bad muck.

Go to your room!!
 
2013-03-20 03:48:07 AM

sendtodave: I live in China.  Most expats and locals have this "how could the most powerful country be so dumb" attitude about the whole affair.

It's like realizing you left the keys to the car with your five year old.


Are you talking about China or the USA?
 
2013-03-20 03:48:35 AM

Kittypie070: muck4doo: 0bama is exactly and precisely equivalent to Bush!!

STOP THAT.

Bad muck.

Go to your room!!


But mom....!
 
2013-03-20 03:49:02 AM

muck4doo: Conservatives complained about it back then.


complained? they were voting for it.  where have you been?
 
2013-03-20 03:49:52 AM

Corn_Fed: I suppose you also railed against Bush's profligate spending


You think Bush knows what "profligate" means?

/just wondering.
 
2013-03-20 03:51:55 AM
Hail storm in Austin right now. I can't sleep. Sounds like my windows are gonna get broken.
 
2013-03-20 03:54:04 AM

ciberido: sendtodave: I live in China.  Most expats and locals have this "how could the most powerful country be so dumb" attitude about the whole affair.

It's like realizing you left the keys to the car with your five year old.

Are you talking about China or the USA?


I dunno, but think how bad a five-year-old Asian would drive. Yikes!

/**ducks**
 
2013-03-20 03:55:04 AM
Pea to nickle size hail stones. Starting to die down now a bit.
 
2013-03-20 03:56:53 AM

Danger Avoid Death: Corn_Fed: I suppose you also railed against Bush's profligate spending

You think Bush knows what "profligate" means?

/just wondering.


Hell, I don't know what it means. But it gives me a strange tingly feeling down there.
 
2013-03-20 03:57:09 AM

log_jammin: muck4doo: Conservatives complained about it back then.

complained? they were voting for it.  where have you been?


No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.
 
2013-03-20 04:01:04 AM

muck4doo: log_jammin: muck4doo: Conservatives complained about it back then.

complained? they were voting for it.  where have you been?

No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.


Please. There was no widespread call among conservatives against Bush's spending during his tenure. Absolute revisionism.
 
2013-03-20 04:01:27 AM

muck4doo: Kittypie070: muck4doo: Waaaahhh! Buh-buh-bea buh-bea-buh-bea-Obama!

STOP THAT.

Bad muck.

Go to your room!!


But mom....!


*delivers swat to muck's backside as he disconsolately toddles past*
 
2013-03-20 04:01:31 AM

muck4doo: log_jammin: muck4doo: Conservatives complained about it back then.

complained? they were voting for it.  where have you been?

No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.


Oh don't worry, we saw all the "actual conservatives" over there in the "ten years ago" thread.

New hurp, same as the old derp.
 
2013-03-20 04:02:38 AM

muck4doo: Pea to nickle size hail stones. Starting to die down now a bit.


Why to hailstones always have to be the size of something else? Why can't they just be their own size and stick with it?
 
2013-03-20 04:05:00 AM

muck4doo: No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.


"actual conservatives"? what "actual conservatives" in congress were speaking out against the republicans spending spree? were they the ones handing out check of the floor of congress during the vote on medicare part d?
 
2013-03-20 04:06:14 AM
Whatever.
 
2013-03-20 04:07:35 AM
This is how the 1% operate - no moral compass and would have their minions fark up babies with gredades if it meant they got paid.
 
2013-03-20 04:08:27 AM

Corn_Fed: muck4doo: log_jammin: muck4doo: Conservatives complained about it back then.

complained? they were voting for it.  where have you been?

No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.

Please. There was no widespread call among conservatives against Bush's spending during his tenure. Absolute revisionism.


True, Not a big enough call. If you think there was no call back then though, you are just misleading yourself. Many of us were sick of how Bush spent money. The biggest idiocy being the money spent in Iraq, I know they will never tell that to you though at TPM, Daily Kos, or Media Matters, so I guess it is a moot point.
 
2013-03-20 04:08:58 AM

Corn_Fed: violentsalvation: Confabulat: Every American who supported that nonsense war and fell for their bullshiat, when it was plenty obvious even at the time there were major holes in their story, needs to apologize.

I farkin' stood out in the rain with an anti-war sign in traffic. I never do shiat like that but I knew bullshiat when I saw it.

What was your excuse?

That's the thing though, you didn't know, you were opposing Bush and Cheney for your own partisan reasons and / or you hate and oppose any war. The latter I respect much more than the former, but I respect them both. Intelligence organizations around the world were in agreement with our own, you weren't some genius out there in the rain protesting, your gut feeling was just.. well, right. I'll apologize to you, I'm sorry you got wet out there holding that sign accomplishing nothing.

That's exactly where you are wrong. I was listening to the only people who actually knew what they were talking about--the UN inspectors. Contrary to popular conception, they did know what was going on in Iraq. They had the records, they had the evidence, but the intelligence agencies were generally too paranoid to listen to reason.

The evidence pointed strongly to there being no WMD's or any reason to fear Iraq. But intelligence agencies are just as prone to ideological extremism as any other. And they were being ruled by the tinfoil hatters.


The evidence from the UN inspectors was inconclusive at best, because they weren't given enough time or resources to complete their work. I know that. War happened.
 
2013-03-20 04:10:04 AM

Danger Avoid Death: muck4doo: Pea to nickle size hail stones. Starting to die down now a bit.

Why to hailstones always have to be the size of something else? Why can't they just be their own size and stick with it?


If I told you they were hailstone size that wouldn't tell you much, would it?
 
2013-03-20 04:10:23 AM

muck4doo: Many of us


who?
 
2013-03-20 04:11:20 AM

log_jammin: muck4doo: No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.

"actual conservatives"? what "actual conservatives" in congress were speaking out against the republicans spending spree? were they the ones handing out check of the floor of congress during the vote on medicare part d?


Definitely no conservatives you read about at Daily Kos or TPM.
 
2013-03-20 04:12:52 AM

muck4doo: Corn_Fed: muck4doo: log_jammin: muck4doo: Conservatives complained about it back then.

complained? they were voting for it.  where have you been?

No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.

Please. There was no widespread call among conservatives against Bush's spending during his tenure. Absolute revisionism.

True, Not a big enough call. If you think there was no call back then though, you are just misleading yourself. Many of us were sick of how Bush spent money. The biggest idiocy being the money spent in Iraq, I know they will never tell that to you though at TPM, Daily Kos, or Media Matters, so I guess it is a moot point.


At no time during this era did <b>muckfordoo</b> complain about these things on fark. This guy was way too busy defending Bush and the Republican way of life against us evil liberal Farkers to ever consider stooping to such things. I guess they all saved that criticism for Free Republic, cause none of them ever said it out loud back then.
 
2013-03-20 04:13:08 AM

muck4doo: Danger Avoid Death: muck4doo: Pea to nickle size hail stones. Starting to die down now a bit.

Why to hailstones always have to be the size of something else? Why can't they just be their own size and stick with it?

If I told you they were hailstone size that wouldn't tell you much, would it?


It would tell me the hailstones were comfortable with who they are.
 
2013-03-20 04:14:36 AM

muck4doo: log_jammin: muck4doo: No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.

"actual conservatives"? what "actual conservatives" in congress were speaking out against the republicans spending spree? were they the ones handing out check of the floor of congress during the vote on medicare part d?

Definitely no conservatives you read about at Daily Kos or TPM.


I don't read about conservatives on Daily Kos or TPM. I read YOUR opinions.

Right here. I read what you write.

And that's enough to know you're not a very smart person, and you aren't doing your party any favors by speaking your mind.

So, tell me more about how you were against the Iraq War?
 
2013-03-20 04:14:58 AM

log_jammin: muck4doo: Many of us

who?


Me for one. Believe it or not, that slut Shawn Hammity too(if you want a media reference). Of course you idiots were to busy listening to Olbermann at the time and Mother Sheehan.
 
2013-03-20 04:16:41 AM
MUCK!!!
 
2013-03-20 04:17:45 AM

sminkypinky: This is how the 1% operate - no moral compass and would have their minions fark up babies with gredades if it meant they got paid.


So they could buy even more gredade lunchers.
 
2013-03-20 04:17:54 AM

Danger Avoid Death: muck4doo: Danger Avoid Death: muck4doo: Pea to nickle size hail stones. Starting to die down now a bit.

Why to hailstones always have to be the size of something else? Why can't they just be their own size and stick with it?

If I told you they were hailstone size that wouldn't tell you much, would it?

It would tell me the hailstones were comfortable with who they are.


They did look very comfortable with who they are. But they are melted now.
 
2013-03-20 04:19:04 AM

Kittypie070: MUCK!!!


I know, I know. Okay.
 
2013-03-20 04:20:17 AM
Shawn (sp) Hannity was a noted anti-war spokesman in the early 2000s, as every historical revisionist can tell you. They also cannot remember a time they supported a poor political position because they are well, not smart people after all, and possibly have a lot of brain damage which may explain their nonsense.
 
2013-03-20 04:20:44 AM

muck4doo: Me for one.


well, that's nice, but who else?
 
2013-03-20 04:20:44 AM
Well, I hadn't been able to bring myself to post in this thread yet because I was afraid to put down the popcorn. Now it seems it's died down enough so that the only thing I'm going to miss is muck4doo parroting TPM and DailyKos every post. It seems a little too late because anything of substance or even wit I would have had to say has already been covered.

So uh... 'murka.
 
2013-03-20 04:23:09 AM

gsmphoto: It makes me weep to say this, but over in two.


Oh don't weep, child. There but for the grace of God...also a good rally cry for our fellow progressives.
 
2013-03-20 04:33:39 AM
Heart goes out to this guy but I could never understand how someone who volunteers to go kill people without question could possibly pass the blame onto someone else. 'After 9/11' ..what, you got bloodlust? Sorry but in this day in age it's hard to have sympathy for people who biatch about their job when they choose to work there. It's a free country without a draft, you aren't a victim of anything but your own decision to trust the government to tell you who to murder.
 
2013-03-20 04:35:58 AM
Yes but embellishment aside, we have no souls because Fark Libs have assured us that such things don't exist.
 
2013-03-20 04:36:03 AM
That being said, isn't it funny how much Cheney looks and acts and pretty much IS this guy?

media.spokesman.com
 
2013-03-20 04:41:07 AM

muck4doo: Corn_Fed: muck4doo: log_jammin: muck4doo: Conservatives complained about it back then.

complained? they were voting for it.  where have you been?

No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.

Please. There was no widespread call among conservatives against Bush's spending during his tenure. Absolute revisionism.

True, Not a big enough call. If you think there was no call back then though, you are just misleading yourself. Many of us were sick of how Bush spent money. The biggest idiocy being the money spent in Iraq, I know they will never tell that to you though at TPM, Daily Kos, or Media Matters, so I guess it is a moot point.


Muck, you've been here since September of 2004. The Iraq War has been going on all throughout that time.  Could you please direct me to a thread or comment you made here on Fark during, say 2004 to 2008 which would indicate your strong opposition to the Iraq War?  You could help clear this up now.
 
2013-03-20 04:41:24 AM
But Obama supports gay marriage, which is far worse than illegal war.

/what Christian Right actually believe
 
2013-03-20 04:42:21 AM

itsanillusionmichael: That being said, isn't it funny how much Cheney looks and acts and pretty much IS this guy?

[media.spokesman.com image 397x286]


A lifetime of pure evil will etch itself onto your face.
 
2013-03-20 04:48:33 AM

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: I think George Bush is already pretty much broken.  They say he stays inside all day and paints pictures of himself.


Saw a news story on that. I was surprised at the self-reflection his painting shows. I suspect he is coming to terms with his actions and isn't the total shiat head of popular belief.

Cheney, however, is Satan's representative on Earth.
 
2013-03-20 04:50:34 AM

Klom Dark: grxymkjbn: Like ANYONE cares.

This is the world in which we live:  Billionaire psychopaths send everyone but their kids into slavery or war - solely to increase their own wealth - and no one cares.

Yay!  {8/

it's not that nobody cares, everyone cares about it, but we can't figure out what to do about it. sure, there's always the second amendment solution, but there's got to be a more peaceful, more permanent way to solve it or we are no better than mindless animals.


It is that nobody cares. There is the Declaration of Independence solution (and read the list of injuries and usurpations carefully--for at least thirteen years, both the President and Congress, irrespective of political affiliation, have been guilty of several items on that 237 year old list. Sometimes I have to remind myself that this was written by a man who's been dead for two centuries, not someone writing an op-ed for the NY Times Sunday paper) : 

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security
.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only. 
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures. 
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent: 
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people. 
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands. 
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
 
2013-03-20 04:51:47 AM
I would iike for right-wingers to explain how they THOUGHT Iraq would look, back in 2003, when they envisioned 2013.

How close were you? Were you even a little close? Horseshoes close?
 
2013-03-20 04:54:58 AM

Suede head: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: I think George Bush is already pretty much broken.  They say he stays inside all day and paints pictures of himself.

Saw a news story on that. I was surprised at the self-reflection his painting shows. I suspect he is coming to terms with his actions and isn't the total shiat head of popular belief.

Cheney, however, is Satan's representative on Earth.


Most reports suggest that he and Cheney essentially hate each other, and have no contact. Bush eventually realized he was being utterly manipulated by Cheney. In his 2nd term, he started pulling away, and Cheney grew to despise him.

I certainly don't excuse him, or pity him. He was an awful president, who made morally appalling choices, and the sticky blood of our troops in on his hands. But I do keep hoping that he will paint a more revealing nude of himself, because his body excites me with trembling, passionate electricity. Am I so wrong, when it feels so right?
 
2013-03-20 04:55:59 AM

Confabulat: I would iike for right-wingers to explain how they THOUGHT Iraq would look, back in 2003, when they envisioned 2013.


"You mean there's still an Iraq?"
 
2013-03-20 04:56:41 AM

Corn_Fed: muck4doo: Corn_Fed: muck4doo: log_jammin: muck4doo: Conservatives complained about it back then.

complained? they were voting for it.  where have you been?

No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.

Please. There was no widespread call among conservatives against Bush's spending during his tenure. Absolute revisionism.

True, Not a big enough call. If you think there was no call back then though, you are just misleading yourself. Many of us were sick of how Bush spent money. The biggest idiocy being the money spent in Iraq, I know they will never tell that to you though at TPM, Daily Kos, or Media Matters, so I guess it is a moot point.

Muck, you've been here since September of 2004. The Iraq War has been going on all throughout that time.  Could you please direct me to a thread or comment you made here on Fark during, say 2004 to 2008 which would indicate your strong opposition to the Iraq War?  You could help clear this up now.


I've had that position for years. If you want find something different, you go google it.
 
2013-03-20 04:57:05 AM

Confabulat: I would iike for right-wingers to explain how they THOUGHT Iraq would look, back in 2003, when they envisioned 2013.

How close were you? Were you even a little close? Horseshoes close?


I think they envisioned it as being the Texas midlands, but within a days ride to Jesusland. American flags, humvees, and Hank and Peggy Hill shopping at the Baghdad Mega-lo-mart and swinging by the K(urdistan)FC for a bucket of drumsticks on the way home.
 
2013-03-20 04:57:48 AM

Corn_Fed: Jim_Callahan:
So, um, sorta like blaming two members of the executive branch for a war pretty much universally approved by congress and encouraged by several of our international allies for reasons confirmed by our own intelligence guys?

Um, yeah, just for review...

Those two members of the executive branch:

- dreamed it up
- planned the war
- promoted the war
- sold the war to everyone else


Let's not whitewash the fact that  it was ALL THEIR IDEA. They're completely responsible.


...as much as they have a lot of responsibility for it, they are not the only ones responsible.  This took decades of planning by hundreds of people...guys like Bremer, Ridge, Ashcroft, Rove, many people who are still in the public eye today that you'd never expect, or forgot were part of it.  It never began or ended with either Bush or Cheney.  Hell, if 9/11 hadn't happened, these wars would likely not have happened, although there likely would've been another triggering event they could use...and many of the same people behind Iraq are waiting for yet another trigger event as an excuse to attack Iran and/or North Korea.  And you know they'll get it eventually.
 
2013-03-20 05:00:48 AM

Confabulat: I would iike for right-wingers to explain how they THOUGHT Iraq would look, back in 2003, when they envisioned 2013.

How close were you? Were you even a little close? Horseshoes close?


They envisioned it as a staging area for Iran.
 
2013-03-20 05:01:01 AM
*kitty angrily turns muck over her knee, administers a spanking*
 
2013-03-20 05:02:26 AM

Kittypie070: *kitty angrily turns muck over her knee, administers a spanking*


I dunno what he was up to, but there's a ton of gray bars with his name on them in the thread.
 
2013-03-20 05:05:42 AM

muck4doo: Corn_Fed: muck4doo: Corn_Fed: muck4doo: log_jammin: muck4doo: Conservatives complained about it back then.

complained? they were voting for it.  where have you been?

No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.

Please. There was no widespread call among conservatives against Bush's spending during his tenure. Absolute revisionism.

True, Not a big enough call. If you think there was no call back then though, you are just misleading yourself. Many of us were sick of how Bush spent money. The biggest idiocy being the money spent in Iraq, I know they will never tell that to you though at TPM, Daily Kos, or Media Matters, so I guess it is a moot point.

Muck, you've been here since September of 2004. The Iraq War has been going on all throughout that time.  Could you please direct me to a thread or comment you made here on Fark during, say 2004 to 2008 which would indicate your strong opposition to the Iraq War?  You could help clear this up now.

I've had that position for years. If you want find something different, you go google it.


Hmmm. Well, color me skeptical.
 
2013-03-20 05:07:19 AM

IlGreven: Corn_Fed: Jim_Callahan:
So, um, sorta like blaming two members of the executive branch for a war pretty much universally approved by congress and encouraged by several of our international allies for reasons confirmed by our own intelligence guys?

Um, yeah, just for review...

Those two members of the executive branch:

- dreamed it up
- planned the war
- promoted the war
- sold the war to everyone else


Let's not whitewash the fact that  it was ALL THEIR IDEA. They're completely responsible.

...as much as they have a lot of responsibility for it, they are not the only ones responsible.  This took decades of planning by hundreds of people...guys like Bremer, Ridge, Ashcroft, Rove, many people who are still in the public eye today that you'd never expect, or forgot were part of it.  It never began or ended with either Bush or Cheney.  Hell, if 9/11 hadn't happened, these wars would likely not have happened, although there likely would've been another triggering event they could use...and many of the same people behind Iraq are waiting for yet another trigger event as an excuse to attack Iran and/or North Korea.  And you know they'll get it eventually.


Oh, I didn't mean to absolve all the other complicit evil-doers.
 
2013-03-20 05:09:37 AM
Nicely done, Soldier.
 
2013-03-20 05:11:23 AM
Many here want to appeal to a non partisan nature. This is commendable. However, here is what a non-partisan view looks like: the Bush admin. lied to start a war. Done. If yo deny this fact, you are a shill.
 
2013-03-20 05:12:53 AM
Every politician needs to be eradicated and replaced with someone who actually has ethics and morals.
 
2013-03-20 05:16:51 AM
Gotta love the people that equally blame the democrats for Iraq. The audacity for of these people for believing the secretary of state and defense who and the intellegence agencies whoe fed them false information.I wish i could believe the republican would have taken a different stance if they had known the truth but recent history shows they are unswayed by facts.
 
2013-03-20 05:17:54 AM

Kittypie070: *kitty angrily turns muck over her knee, administers a spanking*


I know you are right, but I can't resist. I've always hated this Iraq war, and now people are asking me to prove I didn't? I've caught hell left and right from people on both sides of the aisle on what I saw as a war on Islam over the years. It was bad when Bush was doing it, but now it is okay? Now we are supposed to cheer lead and praise the commander? The last one who did the same thing is a war criminal? Somehow killing muslims under Bush=more terrorists. Killing muslims under Obama-Yeah freedom! A bunch of IDIOTS R US FARK. Me included. I keep posting here. Muslim hate hasn't went away, it's just now under a different banner and new cheer leaders.
 
2013-03-20 05:19:48 AM

Yogimus: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

And will be for your own good.


Considering all the primary tenants of fascism have more in common with Obama's beliefs than Bush's beliefs I'd keep that in mind. It always makes me chuckle hard when people who believe in government control of as much of society as possible start calling other people fascists.

As to the article itself. I'm sorry he feels that way. I'm also sorry that he is sick and dying at such a young age. I would however like to point out that there are no shortage of soldiers who served just as bravely and just as honorably as he did who do not share his opinion. That he was a soldier or that he is sick and and dying does not make his opinion more valid than any other opinion from a different veteran. It's always interesting to me when people try to position individuals or small representative groups in some sort of unassailable position where they can say whatever they want and you're not allowed to be critical of them.

You may commence with the "How DARE you...!" reactions now. I got used to them when I was listening to Cindy Shehan and being told I couldn't criticize her either because of what happened to her son but strangely the 'son was a soldier who died in combat' protection clause never seemed to extend to any family who lost a son and disagreed with her completely. I also get the feeling that if we find a former soldier who disagrees with the author of this article he won't get the magical protection clause either.

Past that, it's nothing but reused anti-Bush admin liberal talking points and opinions intermixed with cherry picked negative statistics. It's not new, it's not exciting, and it's not any more relevant or valid simply because you found a legitimately brave individual who is suffering from a terrible disease to say them for you.

To put it more simply, if we found a former soldier who was dying now, and he repeated every conservative talking point and talked about how great things are now in Iraq how many of you would say "We've been wrong all this time, that Bush, he wasn't so bad. Maybe we should reconsider some of the things we've thought and said all these years."? Would you be shamed to silence? I assure you that the conservatives would do no better and would pull the same "how dare you" lines out on you, and they too would see it as "different" somehow when it's a soldier saying something they don't like.
 
2013-03-20 05:20:13 AM

muck4doo: Kittypie070: *kitty angrily turns muck over her knee, administers a spanking*

I know you are right, but I can't resist. I've always hated this Iraq war, and now people are asking me to prove I didn't? I've caught hell left and right from people on both sides of the aisle on what I saw as a war on Islam over the years. It was bad when Bush was doing it, but now it is okay? Now we are supposed to cheer lead and praise the commander? The last one who did the same thing is a war criminal? Somehow killing muslims under Bush=more terrorists. Killing muslims under Obama-Yeah freedom! A bunch of IDIOTS R US FARK. Me included. I keep posting here. Muslim hate hasn't went away, it's just now under a different banner and new cheer leaders.


BSABSVR
 
2013-03-20 05:24:09 AM

log_jammin: muck4doo: Kittypie070: *kitty angrily turns muck over her knee, administers a spanking*

I know you are right, but I can't resist. I've always hated this Iraq war, and now people are asking me to prove I didn't? I've caught hell left and right from people on both sides of the aisle on what I saw as a war on Islam over the years. It was bad when Bush was doing it, but now it is okay? Now we are supposed to cheer lead and praise the commander? The last one who did the same thing is a war criminal? Somehow killing muslims under Bush=more terrorists. Killing muslims under Obama-Yeah freedom! A bunch of IDIOTS R US FARK. Me included. I keep posting here. Muslim hate hasn't went away, it's just now under a different banner and new cheer leaders.

BSABSVR


You forgot your pompoms.
 
2013-03-20 05:27:48 AM

randomjsa: Considering all the primary tenants of fascism have...


... one really evil landlord?
 
2013-03-20 05:35:06 AM
Reasonable people: "War is wrong. Killing people is wrong. You don't make peace by killing more people".

Tard people: "Bush is war kriminail! Obama got this right! Go get em Obama!"

Idiot People: "Muslims gonna kill us if we don't kill em first"

I've said it over and over again here on fark. Islam isn't the problem, neither are the Sauds. Yet we still see photoshops of Bush Kissing King Abdullah, pictures of Reagan meeting with the Taliban(who didn't exist until the 90's years after Reagan left office), and I just can't help but notice, most of you are retards who have no clue to the world around you except what you read at TPM and Daily Kos. I will look into getting into that comfortable derp zone in the future.
 
2013-03-20 05:41:22 AM

StoPPeRmobile: fusillade762: StoPPeRmobile: Remember when Sadam complained about Kuwait slant drilling so the the borders were re-drawn?

Saddam even asked permission first (sort of):

Saddam Hussein - If we could keep the whole of the Shatt al Arab - our strategic goal in our war with Iran - we will make concessions (to the Kuwaitis). But, if we are forced to choose between keeping half of the Shatt and the whole of Iraq (i.e., in Saddam s view, including Kuwait ) then we will give up all of the Shatt to defend our claims on Kuwait to keep the whole of Iraq in the shape we wish it to be. (pause) What is the United States' opinion on this?

U.S. Ambassador Glaspie - We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960′s, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America. (Saddam smiles)

Thanks but that's not a scholarly source.


On 25 July 1990, the U.S. Ambassador in Iraq, April Glaspie, asked the Iraqi high command to explain the military preparations in progress, including the massing of Iraqi troops near the border.

The American ambassador declared to her Iraqi interlocutor that Washington, "inspired by the friendship and not by confrontation, does not have an opinion" on the disagreement between Kuwait and Iraq, stating "we have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts."

She also let Saddam Hussein know that the U.S. did not intend "to start an economic war against Iraq". These statements may have caused Saddam to believe he had received a diplomatic green light from the United States to invade Kuwait.[20][21]


That's wikipedia. You can follow the sources yourself.
Seems pretty clear to me we could have avoided Desert Storm if we'd focused more on diplomacy. And been less gullible about "Incubator babies dashed to the floor by mustache-twirling Iraqi soldiers" bullshiat.
 
2013-03-20 05:44:50 AM
The thing that really struck me was how "Iraqi centric" all the network TV became. News had "inside Iraq's torture chambers" specials running, history/discovery was jam-packed with "Gulf War/Saddam's Rapehouses" footage...


In hindsight, it was really... impressive.
 
2013-03-20 05:46:17 AM
Okay. I can't go to sleep until ESPN and Madden 25 announces whether Jake Delhomme made it to the next round.
 
2013-03-20 05:47:16 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBCUIurDtjg

^ Arafat on 9/11... he knew what was up.
 
2013-03-20 05:47:54 AM

Yogimus: The thing that really struck me was how "Iraqi centric" all the network TV became. News had "inside Iraq's torture chambers" specials running, history/discovery was jam-packed with "Gulf War/Saddam's Rapehouses" footage...


In hindsight, it was really... impressive.


I liked the Uday rape soccer edition one.
 
2013-03-20 05:48:40 AM

GORDON: "The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998


Bill Clinton knew the stuff about Saddam having WMDs was bullshiat but he was willing to perpetuate that lie so that the CIA could continue trying to depose Saddam through the sanctions, the weapons inspections, and other covert means. Clinton did not invade and occupy Iraq based on that lie.
 
2013-03-20 05:59:52 AM

randomjsa: Considering all the primary tenants of fascism have more in common with Obama's beliefs than Bush's beliefs


Interesting. You actually believe that corporatism, nationalism, authoritarian oppression of minorities, suppression of intellectualism,  suppression of art, demonization of outside influences and dismantling of parliamentary democracy more closely represent Obama's ideology than Bush's?

You must be a very troubled person.
 
2013-03-20 06:01:55 AM

MinkeyMan: randomjsa: Considering all the primary tenants of fascism have more in common with Obama's beliefs than Bush's beliefs

Interesting. You actually believe that corporatism, nationalism, authoritarian oppression of minorities, suppression of intellectualism,  suppression of art, demonization of outside influences and dismantling of parliamentary democracy more closely represent Obama's ideology than Bush's?

You must be a very troubled person.


+1 Mr Mao
 
2013-03-20 06:04:32 AM

muck4doo: MinkeyMan: randomjsa: Considering all the primary tenants of fascism have more in common with Obama's beliefs than Bush's beliefs

Interesting. You actually believe that corporatism, nationalism, authoritarian oppression of minorities, suppression of intellectualism,  suppression of art, demonization of outside influences and dismantling of parliamentary democracy more closely represent Obama's ideology than Bush's?

You must be a very troubled person.

+1 Mr Mao


Or you are both right, and they are sides of the same coin? Of course, you probably contribute all the stuff done at a local level to the administration as opposed to the responsible people, but hey.... whatever works, so long as you get to play the victim, amirite?
 
2013-03-20 06:06:41 AM
The world is a vampire.
 
2013-03-20 06:13:27 AM
Confused as to whether this like being a Pats or Raiders fan. All I know is my inner retard is coming free.
 
2013-03-20 06:13:32 AM

Kurmudgeon: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

And yet as a Christian and a Democrat, I never supported Dubya, Dick or the GOP to the point I've lost family and friends over this issue. Bush 2 Administration bore false witness to wage war.
That is not a Christian value. Oh well, I'm sure someone will knee jerk post this Sinclair Lewis quote inaccurately once again.


Maybe they aren't quoting Sinclair Lewis.  Maybe they aren't even quoting Huey Long.
 
2013-03-20 06:15:10 AM
Oh damnit. That's right. This is a politics thread. Sorry for that daydreaming distraction.
 
2013-03-20 06:17:16 AM

thamike: Kurmudgeon: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

And yet as a Christian and a Democrat, I never supported Dubya, Dick or the GOP to the point I've lost family and friends over this issue. Bush 2 Administration bore false witness to wage war.
That is not a Christian value. Oh well, I'm sure someone will knee jerk post this Sinclair Lewis quote inaccurately once again.

Maybe they aren't quoting Sinclair Lewis.  Maybe they aren't even quoting Huey Long.


Quoting Howey Long. Feel your inner retard.
 
2013-03-20 06:17:31 AM

Yogimus: Or you are both right, and they are sides of the same coin? Of course, you probably contribute all the stuff done at a local level to the administration as opposed to the responsible people, but hey.... whatever works, so long as you get to play the victim, amirite?


Yes. The end result of communism and fascism is essentially the same. I know this because I have lived under military rule in pre-democracy Indonesia and also spent 2 years in the Soviet Union.

However, my original post was in response to Random's contention that Obama is more ideologically aligned with fascism than Bush. I don't think either of their ideologies come anywhere near fascism, but to say the Obama leans more that way than Bush is errant nonsense.
 
2013-03-20 06:18:11 AM

Deep Contact: The world is a vampire.


<3

!
 
2013-03-20 06:24:08 AM
I write this letter, I write this letter, I write this letter, I write this letter,  I write this letter,  I write this letter,  I write this letter.....

So, you writing a letter?
 
2013-03-20 06:25:06 AM

Confabulat: I would iike for right-wingers to explain how they THOUGHT Iraq would look, back in 2003, when they envisioned 2013.

How close were you? Were you even a little close? Horseshoes close?


It turned out exactly as I thought it would back in 2001.  I remember there was a night in the late fall, after it became clear the Taliban was going to be kicked out of Afghanistan, when there was a "The Connection" show about how Bush was going to use the public reaction to 9/11 to enable the neocon's long dreamed of invasion of Iraq.  I was driving home listening to it, I sat in the garage for about 20 minutes listening until the show ended.  Up until that point I always believe the Democrats would block it but the show made it clear that public would be all for it (gotta kick some more arab ass) and the dems wouldn't stand up to the pressure.   As far as I am concerned invading Iraq was obviously a lose/lose/lose situation long before it even happened.  It made life much worse for most Iraqis, it didn't help the situation in the middle east and probably made it worse and it helped destroy the world economy by jacking up the price of oil.  The exact opposite of what the neocons predicted.
 
2013-03-20 06:25:31 AM

MinkeyMan: Yogimus: Or you are both right, and they are sides of the same coin? Of course, you probably contribute all the stuff done at a local level to the administration as opposed to the responsible people, but hey.... whatever works, so long as you get to play the victim, amirite?

Yes. The end result of communism and fascism is essentially the same. I know this because I have lived under military rule in pre-democracy Indonesia and also spent 2 years in the Soviet Union.

However, my original post was in response to Random's contention that Obama is more ideologically aligned with fascism than Bush. I don't think either of their ideologies come anywhere near fascism, but to say the Obama leans more that way than Bush is errant nonsense.


I agree 100%. I also love how the folks that say these things don't have a clue about the actual mechanics of our government.
 
2013-03-20 06:30:57 AM

Yogimus: MinkeyMan: Yogimus: Or you are both right, and they are sides of the same coin? Of course, you probably contribute all the stuff done at a local level to the administration as opposed to the responsible people, but hey.... whatever works, so long as you get to play the victim, amirite?

Yes. The end result of communism and fascism is essentially the same. I know this because I have lived under military rule in pre-democracy Indonesia and also spent 2 years in the Soviet Union.

However, my original post was in response to Random's contention that Obama is more ideologically aligned with fascism than Bush. I don't think either of their ideologies come anywhere near fascism, but to say the Obama leans more that way than Bush is errant nonsense.

I agree 100%. I also love how the folks that say these things don't have a clue about the actual mechanics of our government.


For the record, any politician that uses the phrase "Bush lied" deserves to be the first against the wall.
 
2013-03-20 06:37:21 AM
I am virtually incapable of starting a sentence without 'I' or 'you'.
 
2013-03-20 06:41:43 AM
Strahp rut dare! I gotsta nah burh now!

/Go Patriots!
//lulz
 
2013-03-20 06:42:01 AM

indylaw: I am virtually incapable of starting a sentence without 'I' or 'you'.


you don't say.
 
2013-03-20 07:07:10 AM
This guy is a cock.

I'm sorry he's dying, but we are all dying. We are nanoseconds behind him on the scale of eternity.

He enlisted, was not drafted, and cashed and spent every paycheck. Every whore hates their johns, but only become vocal about it once their looks have gone.

/yes, 25 years Army, deployed overseas to the sandbox
//got combat patch
///didn't care for a lot of thingsm bad food, long hours, but always reenlisted...if I hadn't gotten too old and fat and asthmatic, I'd still be in.
 
2013-03-20 07:09:36 AM
One thing I have learned from this thread is that if you are pro Obama and compare him to Bush, you get; "B...b...but Bush!"

And if you are anti-Obama and compare him to Bush, it's perfectly reasonable and Obama is just as bad as Bush. If not worse.

At least in the minds of some of the more idiotic posters 'round here.
 
2013-03-20 07:10:50 AM
24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-03-20 07:12:07 AM
Lots of blame to go around. Unfortunately, apathetic and willfully ignorant citizens share a large amount of the blame.

Blame Bush if you want, but I remember how it was before Iraq. I questioned their involvement as well as why we'd need to invade. When Bush stated that there would be no nation building, I knew that was a lie.

The support for undeclared and unconstitutional war had bi partisan support.

I'm conservative and was against the war. Knew enough history and of the geopolitical situation to know how it'd probably end up. Ron Paul was even warning of the ramifications.

Intelligence is not the same as wisdom. You can have all the data in front of you. If you can't figure out context and simply act with knee jerk reactions, then things will always end badly for you.
 
2013-03-20 07:13:49 AM

JRoo: One thing I have learned from this thread is that if you are pro Obama and compare him to Bush, you get; "B...b...but Bush!"

And if you are anti-Obama and compare him to Bush, it's perfectly reasonable and Obama is just as bad as Bush. If not worse.

At least in the minds of some of the more idiotic posters 'round here.


Also something about vampires.
 
2013-03-20 07:18:06 AM
Generals gathered in their masses
Just like witches at black masses
Evil minds that plot destruction
Sorcerers of death's construction
In the fields the bodies burning
As the war machine keeps turning
Death and hatred to mankind
Poisoning their brainwashed minds
Oh lord yeah!

Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor

Time will tell on their power minds
Making war just for fun
Treating people just like pawns in chess
Wait 'til their judgement day comes
Yeah!

Now in darkness world stops turning
Ashes where the bodies burning
No more war pigs have the power
Hand of God has struck the hour
Day of judgement, God is calling
On their knees the war pig's crawling
Begging mercy for their sins
Satan laughing spreads his wings
Oh lord yeah!
 
2013-03-20 07:25:48 AM
djh0101010: whining

Both Sides Are Bad!
 
2013-03-20 07:28:20 AM

ciberido: sendtodave: I live in China.  Most expats and locals have this "how could the most powerful country be so dumb" attitude about the whole affair.

It's like realizing you left the keys to the car with your five year old.

Are you talking about China or the USA?


The US, of course.

Your average British, European, or Aussie expats, or your average local Chinese, all know that the US is the most powerful country.  They just don't agree that it should be, for their various reasons.

Abusing our "world police" status is a valid one, IMO.
 
2013-03-20 07:33:21 AM

log_jammin: As for him being "pro-war" in general, that's one big ass assumption about him, and everyone else who has ever been in the military.


Anyone that chooses to join the military is pro-war, unless they enjoycognitive dissonance.

I mean, that's their job.  War.

There is no conscientious objector in an all volunteer military, unless they are too dim to understand what the military exists for.
 
2013-03-20 07:34:18 AM

grunthos: He enlisted, was not drafted, and cashed and spent every paycheck. Every whore hates their johns, but only become vocal about it once their looks have gone.


+smart
 
2013-03-20 07:34:49 AM
Everybody always seems to forget:Seventy-Two Percent of Americans Support War Against Iraq
upload.wikimedia.org
It's easy to look back with what you now know my friend but you enlisted knowing they can send you anywhere at any time. Godspeed.
 
2013-03-20 07:35:09 AM
I'm impressed that so many people have gone with the "hey, democrats were totally involved, too" angle. Coming from people that otherwise claim to be independent just makes it humorous when you are spending time trying to absolve Bush/GOP from even a small bit of blame.

If the Bush Administration didn't want to go to war, they had countless opportunities to stop it. Instead, they ignored or falsified intelligence, ignored international opinion, and did everything they could to sell people on the greatness of the cause.

Pointing out that 85 democrats got tricked by the false intelligence and jingoistic fervor stirred up by Bush and the GOP doesn't give you a winning argument.

That you are still fighting against the idea of blaming Bush ten years later is amazing, though.
 
2013-03-20 07:37:53 AM

Confabulat: I would iike for right-wingers to explain how they THOUGHT Iraq would look, back in 2003, when they envisioned 2013.

How close were you? Were you even a little close? Horseshoes close?


I would assume they thnk of it like the current Iraqi regime:  "Things would be great, if not for those pesky terrorists flooding in here!"

Which is almost amusing, since we went to Iraq under the guise of fighting terrorists.  Well, we got that!

Iraq, then, was just a honey-pot.
 
2013-03-20 07:41:41 AM

Snowflake Tubbybottom: Everybody always seems to forget:Seventy-Two Percent of Americans Support War Against Iraq
[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x460]
It's easy to look back with what you now know my friend but you enlisted knowing they can send you anywhere at any time. Godspeed.


Not relevant.  Popularity doesn't make crimes not criminal.
 
2013-03-20 07:42:01 AM

muck4doo: No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.


You hated how Bush spent so much, that you reelected him, didn't you?

A true Fark Independent!
 
2013-03-20 07:43:14 AM

bulldg4life: If the Bush Administration didn't want to go to war, they had countless opportunities to stop it. Instead, they ignored or falsified intelligence, ignored international opinion, and did everything they could to sell people on the greatness of the cause.

Pointing out that 85 democrats got tricked by the false intelligence and jingoistic fervor stirred up by Bush and the GOP doesn't give you a winning argument.


The idea that Republicans were war-mongers and Democrats were dupes, or simply cowed, is dangerous.

It seeks to absolve the dupes and cowards.

The dupes and cowards are the ones who give tyrants their mandates.
 
2013-03-20 07:43:14 AM

bulldg4life: That you are still fighting against the idea of blaming Bush ten years later is amazing, though.


I just sit back and smile. All the public trust Reagan had built in Republican foreign policy is now deader than the man himself. Proof be in the pudding right there.
 
2013-03-20 07:45:29 AM

Alphax: Snowflake Tubbybottom: Everybody always seems to forget:Seventy-Two Percent of Americans Support War Against Iraq
[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x460]
It's easy to look back with what you now know my friend but you enlisted knowing they can send you anywhere at any time. Godspeed.

Not relevant.  Popularity doesn't make crimes not criminal.


Crimes don't exist when no one will prosecute.
 
2013-03-20 07:46:07 AM
Real Americans get to tie the Bush era to the GOP forever, so that's nice. Why did you guys think electing a buffoon would turn out well for you? How's that permanent republican majority working out?
 
2013-03-20 07:46:09 AM

sendtodave: The idea that Republicans were war-mongers and Democrats were dupes, or simply cowed, is dangerous.

It seeks to absolve the dupes and cowards.

The dupes and cowards are the ones who give tyrants their mandates.


Here's a helpful tip: Calling most everyone else 'dupes and cowards' is good for stroking the ol' ego, but its the fast track to getting yourself farkied as 'asshole'.
 
2013-03-20 07:46:19 AM

sendtodave: Anyone that chooses to join the military is pro-war, unless they enjoycognitive dissonance.

I mean, that's their job.  War.


Anyone that chooses to join the police is pro-crime, unless they enjoy cognitive dissonance.

I mean, that's their job. Crime.
 
2013-03-20 07:47:40 AM

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: sendtodave: The idea that Republicans were war-mongers and Democrats were dupes, or simply cowed, is dangerous.

It seeks to absolve the dupes and cowards.

The dupes and cowards are the ones who give tyrants their mandates.

Here's a helpful tip: Calling most everyone else 'dupes and cowards' is good for stroking the ol' ego, but its the fast track to getting yourself farkied as 'asshole'.


Isn't that the argument?  The the Democrats didn't really want war, but they went along because they were either fooled or scared?

Thus, they bear no responsibility?
 
2013-03-20 07:48:16 AM
Well he doesn't speak for me (Marine Infantry Vet) I see nothing heroic in writing a letter to 2 men who aren't popular about a war that the majority of Americans don't like now. You liked it in 2003. Whatever, I'm glad we went in. No more Saddam, under him Iraq had no chance. At least it had a chance now. Hopefully no more state sanctioned rapes, murders, torture (and I mean real torture, acid, hooks, fire, etc, not water being dumped on your face). Iraqis thanked me for helping oust Saddam, I value their opinion over y'all's, most of who have never been with 8 thousand miles of Iraq.
 
2013-03-20 07:48:30 AM

Without Fail: sendtodave: Anyone that chooses to join the military is pro-war, unless they enjoycognitive dissonance.

I mean, that's their job.  War.

Anyone that chooses to join the police is pro-crime, unless they enjoy cognitive dissonance.

I mean, that's their job. Crime.


Tends to be the same kinds of people, really.
 
2013-03-20 07:49:40 AM

Without Fail: muck4doo: No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.

You hated how Bush spent so much, that you reelected him, didn't you?

A true Fark Independent!


Yeah maybe if we had a list of pre-approved "actual conservatives", we would know what real conservative thought is. We had to rely on conservative media telling us that Bush was the most conservative to ever conserve since Reagan. Joke is on us I guess.
 
2013-03-20 07:51:58 AM

M11618: Hopefully no more state sanctioned rapes, murders, torture (and I mean real torture, acid, hooks, fire, etc, not water being dumped on your face).


Your hopes have already been dashed then. And will you sign up to be water boarded for charity? We'll give it to help people that have experienced "real" torture.
 
2013-03-20 07:52:00 AM

Clemkadidlefark: Gee. A letter damning GWB and Cheney. Who coulda seen this coming. And from an outfit called TruthDig.

What did this guy think was going to happen? Tiddlywinks and ticker tape parades? Qar is hell and if you sign up to be a soldier, you are probably going to see the Hell.

A tug on the heart-strings moment means no one criticizes, but the issue of taking America into war deserves a lot more seriousness than a letter from a veteran, whose opinion is at odds with so many other veterans.


fark you.
 
2013-03-20 07:52:36 AM
meh. 2/10.
 
2013-03-20 07:53:01 AM
Late to the party but...

The talking point is it was Congress not the President's fault?

Christ, that is weak
 
2013-03-20 07:53:19 AM

M11618: Well he doesn't speak for me (Marine Infantry Vet) I see nothing heroic in writing a letter to 2 men who aren't popular about a war that the majority of Americans don't like now. You liked it in 2003. Whatever, I'm glad we went in.


So, you still like it?
 
2013-03-20 07:54:08 AM

Mrfusticle: Late to the party but...

The talking point is it was Congress not the President's fault?

Christ, that is weak


It's both.  And the American people's, too.
 
2013-03-20 07:54:18 AM

GORDON: Hey, anybody remember, "Bush Derangement Syndrome?"


We hated Bush for what he did. They hate Obama for what he is.
 
2013-03-20 07:54:24 AM

M11618: Well he doesn't speak for me (Marine Infantry Vet) I see nothing heroic in writing a letter to 2 men who aren't popular about a war that the majority of Americans don't like now. You liked it in 2003. Whatever, I'm glad we went in. No more Saddam, under him Iraq had no chance. At least it had a chance now. Hopefully no more state sanctioned rapes, murders, torture (and I mean real torture, acid, hooks, fire, etc, not water being dumped on your face). Iraqis thanked me for helping oust Saddam, I value their opinion over y'all's, most of who have never been with 8 thousand miles of Iraq.


What kind of mental block does it take to think that a country that's been invaded and occupied has less rape, murder, and torture than before?
 
2013-03-20 07:55:04 AM
"I write this letter on behalf of the 4,488 soldiers and Marines... I write this letter on behalf of husbands and wives..."

People who do things on others "behalf" should have to check with every last one of them to make sure they actually want them to do it or they should STFU.

/pet peeve.
 
2013-03-20 07:56:27 AM
A whiny liberal complaining about war?  Shocking!

A whiny, uninformed liberal regurgitating nonsense and then receiving accolades from other whiny, uninformed liberals?  Even more shocking!
 
2013-03-20 07:56:39 AM

Alphax: M11618: Well he doesn't speak for me (Marine Infantry Vet) I see nothing heroic in writing a letter to 2 men who aren't popular about a war that the majority of Americans don't like now. You liked it in 2003. Whatever, I'm glad we went in. No more Saddam, under him Iraq had no chance. At least it had a chance now. Hopefully no more state sanctioned rapes, murders, torture (and I mean real torture, acid, hooks, fire, etc, not water being dumped on your face). Iraqis thanked me for helping oust Saddam, I value their opinion over y'all's, most of who have never been with 8 thousand miles of Iraq.

What kind of mental block does it take to think that a country that's been invaded and occupied has less rape, murder, and torture than before?


But are they state sanctioned by Saddam?  No?

Then it's better now!
 
2013-03-20 07:56:57 AM

sendtodave: bulldg4life: If the Bush Administration didn't want to go to war, they had countless opportunities to stop it. Instead, they ignored or falsified intelligence, ignored international opinion, and did everything they could to sell people on the greatness of the cause.

Pointing out that 85 democrats got tricked by the false intelligence and jingoistic fervor stirred up by Bush and the GOP doesn't give you a winning argument.

The idea that Republicans were war-mongers and Democrats were dupes, or simply cowed, is dangerous.

It seeks to absolve the dupes and cowards.

The dupes and cowards are the ones who give tyrants their mandates.


I have no problem calling the democrats idiots for falling in to the jingoism and fear that was stirred up to start the Iraqi war.

However, I am quite liberal. And, I'm not in this thread doing it in an effort to absolve Bush or the GOP of blame.

You have such a cute line about giving tyrants their power...well, we still get to blame the tyrants for being tyrants despite how many dupes there are. That seems to be what many are missing.

If the Bush Administration/GOP didn't want war, then they could've went along with international opinion, not falsified intelligence, not beat the jingoistic drum for war over the course of 2002. At any time they could've stopped it.

Whatever happened to that "the buck stops here, I'm the decider" crap? Only good enough til people realize he's a goddamn idiot and people need to cover their tracks?
 
2013-03-20 07:57:22 AM

untaken_name: If you think the people responsible for war care about the people fighting war, you don't yet understand the true nature of war.


The true nature of war is insanity.
 
2013-03-20 07:57:23 AM

Phineas: A whiny liberal complaining about war?  Shocking!

A whiny, uninformed liberal regurgitating nonsense and then receiving accolades from other whiny, uninformed liberals?  Even more shocking!


Support your troops.
 
2013-03-20 07:58:07 AM
I'm not going to mock or praise this man... I know nothing of war, not have I ever served in the military. The letter seems sincere and I agree with him for the most part, but maybe I'm just numb to all of this, at this point. I don't know...

Yes, this was a war of choice that was sold on lies, promoted by the media, and, at the beginning at least, supported by the majority of Americans regardless of which political ideology they subscribed to. There was a vocal minority, who opposed it and they were shouted down at all levels. But we should not forget, this was not a unanimous war... There were many (again, not a majority) pointing out the folly of this little nation building project and predicting what it would cost our nation in lives and treasure. Those people were proven right and the architects of this war, in my mind, are the ones who carry most of the blame for it. Will they ever have their Robert McNamara moment? I guess time will tell, but, in my mind, the Bush Administration bares the responsibility for all these lost lives. It was their decision to commit forces. It was their decision to invade a country half-assed with no defined victory conditions. Does that absolve the folks who allowed themselves to be led by their noses by the Bush Administration into a senseless war? No.
 
2013-03-20 07:59:38 AM

Alphax: M11618: Well he doesn't speak for me (Marine Infantry Vet) I see nothing heroic in writing a letter to 2 men who aren't popular about a war that the majority of Americans don't like now. You liked it in 2003. Whatever, I'm glad we went in. No more Saddam, under him Iraq had no chance. At least it had a chance now. Hopefully no more state sanctioned rapes, murders, torture (and I mean real torture, acid, hooks, fire, etc, not water being dumped on your face). Iraqis thanked me for helping oust Saddam, I value their opinion over y'all's, most of who have never been with 8 thousand miles of Iraq.

What kind of mental block does it take to think that a country that's been invaded and occupied has less rape, murder, and torture than before?

You

re an idiot. Saddam ran rape rooms and torture camps, is he still their doing it now? I could have sworn they hung his ass. My understanding of the situation is now the government isn't hanging people from meat hook s and burning them with hot irons, nor are they shoving people feet first into wood chippers. But let's look at what's really important. You got to protest against Bush who you didn't like and now y get to feel smug about it. That's what's
 
2013-03-20 07:59:54 AM

Alphax: What kind of mental block does it take to think that a country that's been invaded and occupied has less rape, murder, and torture than before?


I'd imagine it's similar to the one Democrats use when thinking about the fact that their liberal strongholds are less safe than third-world shiatholes.
 
2013-03-20 07:59:58 AM

bulldg4life: You have such a cute line about giving tyrants their power...well, we still get to blame the tyrants for being tyrants despite how many dupes there are. That seems to be what many are missing.


Oh, of course.  But, if He That Shant Be Named never had captured the publics fear, outrage, and anger, he'd just have become a mediocre painter, and war would have been averted.

/guess which one I mean
 
2013-03-20 08:01:25 AM

M11618: Alphax: M11618: Well he doesn't speak for me (Marine Infantry Vet) I see nothing heroic in writing a letter to 2 men who aren't popular about a war that the majority of Americans don't like now. You liked it in 2003. Whatever, I'm glad we went in. No more Saddam, under him Iraq had no chance. At least it had a chance now. Hopefully no more state sanctioned rapes, murders, torture (and I mean real torture, acid, hooks, fire, etc, not water being dumped on your face). Iraqis thanked me for helping oust Saddam, I value their opinion over y'all's, most of who have never been with 8 thousand miles of Iraq.

What kind of mental block does it take to think that a country that's been invaded and occupied has less rape, murder, and torture than before?

Youre an idiot. Saddam ran rape rooms and torture camps, is he still their doing it now? I could have sworn they hung his ass. My understanding of the situation is now the government isn't hanging people from meat hook s and burning them with hot irons, nor are they shoving people feet first into wood chippers. But let's look at what's really important. You got to protest against Bush who you didn't like and now y get to feel smug about it. That's what's


You're so deep in denial.. how many Iraqis did you rape?
 
2013-03-20 08:01:45 AM

keylock71: in my mind, the Bush Administration bares the responsibility for all these lost lives. It was their decision to commit forces. It was their decision to invade a country half-assed with no defined victory conditions. Does that absolve the folks who allowed themselves to be led by their noses by the Bush Administration into a senseless war? No.


I wholly agree.
 
2013-03-20 08:04:10 AM
Oh, of course. But, if He That Shant Be Named never had captured the publics fear, outrage, and anger, he'd just have become a mediocre painter, and war would have been averted.

Your comparison is bad. Hitler tried the painting thing before the tyrant thing.
 
2013-03-20 08:06:22 AM

sendtodave: M11618: Well he doesn't speak for me (Marine Infantry Vet) I see nothing heroic in writing a letter to 2 men who aren't popular about a war that the majority of Americans don't like now. You liked it in 2003. Whatever, I'm glad we went in.

So, you still like it?


Yes, I do still support the invasion of Iraq. Why don't you give it a few years and then see how it all falls out. Was WWII popular towards the end? They had to institute a draft, was it worth it? Was the civil war popular at the end? They had draft riots, a peace party wanting to make peace with the south almost won the election of 1864 (sack of Atlanta stopped that), 600,000+ Americans dead, and half the country destroyed. Was the civil war worth it? Why don't we see how Iraq turns out? I absolutely think it was the right thing and I volunteered for the infantry, went to Iraq, went into combat, and I would do it all over again  if I had to.
 
2013-03-20 08:07:20 AM

Fart_Machine: Bamboozler: Does the president or congress declare war?

Pffft, nobody declares war anymore.  It's so 1941.


IlGreven: Bamboozler: Does the president or congress declare war?

...neither has since 1941.


And now I get to be the nitpicky military historian, yay!

Technically, the last time the United States issued a Declaration of War was 5 June 1942 (Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary).  We apparently forgot to declare war on Germany's allies the week after Pearl Harbor.
 
2013-03-20 08:07:26 AM

Alphax: What kind of mental block does it take to think that a country that's been invaded and occupied has less rape, murder, and torture than before?


Well the rape, murder, and torture was being done by white guys. So that makes it OK.
 
2013-03-20 08:07:46 AM

M11618: sendtodave: M11618: Well he doesn't speak for me (Marine Infantry Vet) I see nothing heroic in writing a letter to 2 men who aren't popular about a war that the majority of Americans don't like now. You liked it in 2003. Whatever, I'm glad we went in.

So, you still like it?

Yes, I do still support the invasion of Iraq. Why don't you give it a few years and then see how it all falls out. Was WWII popular towards the end? They had to institute a draft, was it worth it? Was the civil war popular at the end? They had draft riots, a peace party wanting to make peace with the south almost won the election of 1864 (sack of Atlanta stopped that), 600,000+ Americans dead, and half the country destroyed. Was the civil war worth it? Why don't we see how Iraq turns out? I absolutely think it was the right thing and I volunteered for the infantry, went to Iraq, went into combat, and I would do it all over again  if I had to.


But let's not think that volunteer troops are pro-war or anything.
 
2013-03-20 08:08:40 AM

UNC_Samurai: Technically, the last time the United States issued a Declaration of War was 5 June 1942 (Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary).  We apparently forgot to declare war on Germany's allies the week after Pearl Harbor.


It's easier to fight a war if your troops are all already there.
 
2013-03-20 08:10:20 AM

muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: Without Fail: muck4doo: No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.

You hated how Bush spent so much, that you reelected him, didn't you?

A true Fark Independent!

Yeah maybe if we had a list of pre-approved "actual conservatives", we would know what real conservative thought is. We had to rely on conservative media telling us that Bush was the most conservative to ever conserve since Reagan. Joke is on us I guess.

You have TPM and Daily Kos telling you what Conservatives really think. Keep riding that tard train.


Sorry, I don't visit those sites.

Where is your list of approved conservatives? Put up or shut up. I'm happy to bury you with quotes from prominent conservative thought merchants praising Bush for his conservative credentials. Up until they realized they couldn't polish that turd at least. Then they decided he must be a liberal.
 
2013-03-20 08:10:37 AM
Mehdia mattuhs sez dis guy sucks! sowndls like hez from texas. so tared of fluhovuh staytes, How but ya guys?
 
2013-03-20 08:10:48 AM

sendtodave: keylock71: in my mind, the Bush Administration bares the responsibility for all these lost lives. It was their decision to commit forces. It was their decision to invade a country half-assed with no defined victory conditions. Does that absolve the folks who allowed themselves to be led by their noses by the Bush Administration into a senseless war? No.

I wholly agree.


I just finished reading this book a few weeks back: To End All Wars

Obviously, it's about a completely different war in a completely different time, but the parallels between the run up to WWI and the Iraq War are interesting. Especially with regards to the way dissenting voices were treated.

Worth a read, if you're so inclined.
 
2013-03-20 08:12:23 AM
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-03-20 08:13:13 AM

sendtodave: But let's not think that volunteer troops are pro-war or anything.


He's a marine. They don't count.
 
2013-03-20 08:16:13 AM
Touching, but unfortunately, a waste of some of his last energy. Bush Co. don't give a flying damn. They got what they came for: $$,$$$,$$$,$$$,$$$,$$$
 
2013-03-20 08:19:57 AM

muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: Without Fail: muck4doo: No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.

You hated how Bush spent so much, that you reelected him, didn't you?

A true Fark Independent!

Yeah maybe if we had a list of pre-approved "actual conservatives", we would know what real conservative thought is. We had to rely on conservative media telling us that Bush was the most conservative to ever conserve since Reagan. Joke is on us I guess.

You have TPM and Daily Kos telling you what Conservatives really think. Keep riding that tard train.

Sorry, I don't visit those sites.

Where is your list of approved conservatives? Put up or shut up. I'm happy to bury you with quotes from prominent conservative thought merchants praising Bush for his conservative credentials. Up until they realized they couldn't polish that turd at least. Then they decided he must be a liberal.

Bury with a quote of my own.

muck4doo: Mehdia mattuhs sez dis guy sucks! sowndls like hez from texas. so tared of fluhovuh staytes, How but ya guys?

Really. That's what asshats like you sound like to the rest of the world.


You're so upset, honey.

You got rooked like the rest of your idiot brethren, it's ok to admit it.

Here you are, claiming that you hated his spending and that there is some cabal of "actual" conservatives that agree with you, but you can't seem to name any of them. In an attempt to cover this up, you're typing in some pidgin language trying to claim that everyone else are media dupes. You're a special little guy and we're all proud of you, but sometimes we worry you're not taking your medicine.
 
2013-03-20 08:21:07 AM

Yogimus: You know what makes me weep? How everyone OTHER than those two get a complete pass.

/lookin at you congress


THIS
Funny how quickly the left ONLY blame the "others" and not their own. Bill Clinton? Al Gore? just a sample of the powerful leaders that SWEAR TO GOD and have NO DOUBT of Sadams WMD's ... but hey ... can't blame anyone else but b-b-b-b-BUSH
 
2013-03-20 08:21:47 AM

keylock71: Worth a read, if you're so inclined.


Thanks, I am.
 
2013-03-20 08:22:34 AM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-03-20 08:23:45 AM

Bartman66: Funny how quickly the left ONLY blame the "others" and not their own. Bill Clinton? Al Gore? just a sample of the powerful leaders that SWEAR TO GOD and have NO DOUBT of Sadams WMD's...


Did Clinton or Gore invade Iraq?
 
2013-03-20 08:25:13 AM

GORDON: Kurmudgeon: Bush 2 Administration bore false witness to wage war.

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." -- From a letter signed by Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, & John Kerry among others on October 9, 1998

"This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer- range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." -- From a December 6, 2001 letter signed by Bob Graham, Joe Lieberman, Harold Ford, & Tom Lantos among others

"Whereas Iraq has consistently breached its cease-fire agreement between Iraq and the United States, entered into on March 3, 1991, by failing to dismantle its weapons of mass destruction program, and refusing to permit monitoring and verification by United Nations inspections; Whereas Iraq has developed weapons of mass destruction, including chemical and biological capabilities, and has made positive progress toward developing nuclear weapons capabilities" -- From a joint resolution submitted by Tom Harkin and Arlen Specter on July 18, 2002

"Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." -- Madeline Albright, 1998

"(Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and some day, some way, ...


DONE!!
This pretty much covers all of the crying / blaming all one side or saying that those poor dems were .. strong armed? or forced??lol..ya right...
 
2013-03-20 08:26:54 AM

Without Fail: Bartman66: Funny how quickly the left ONLY blame the "others" and not their own. Bill Clinton? Al Gore? just a sample of the powerful leaders that SWEAR TO GOD and have NO DOUBT of Sadams WMD's...

Did Clinton or Gore invade Iraq?


They were getting busy in Yugoslavia at the time
 
2013-03-20 08:27:26 AM

Bartman66: Yogimus: You know what makes me weep? How everyone OTHER than those two get a complete pass.

/lookin at you congress

THIS
Funny how quickly the left ONLY blame the "others" and not their own. Bill Clinton? Al Gore? just a sample of the powerful leaders that SWEAR TO GOD and have NO DOUBT of Sadams WMD's ... but hey ... can't blame anyone else but b-b-b-b-BUSH


More importantly, it doesn't matter anymore. You have to go all the way back to the cold war to see when and where our policy in the middle east started going wrong, and none of the laying of blame is going to fix it now.
I like Obama, and voted for him - but I do not deceive myself into thinking that he has brought us anything but a slightly more moderate version of the same old broken policy.
At some point soon, we are going to have to choose between being a healthy, prosperous sovereign nation, and being cop and nanny to an ungrateful and undeserving world - and until we face, and make that choice, nothing is really going to change.
 
2013-03-20 08:27:39 AM
the Truth is always more painful than the Lie.

and this Nation does not place a whole lot of value on the Truth.
 
2013-03-20 08:28:16 AM
Having WMD does not a threat make. The rest of the world knew this. Deficient neoconservative thinking and a public still thirsty for revenge after 9/11 made the war happen.
 
2013-03-20 08:28:40 AM

Yogimus: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

And will be for your own good.


Wrong.

for the Owner's own good.  that excludes you.
 
2013-03-20 08:29:16 AM

El_Swino: Meh.  Liberal plant.  Not a real American.



Real American(tm)
 
2013-03-20 08:29:47 AM

Without Fail: Bartman66: Funny how quickly the left ONLY blame the "others" and not their own. Bill Clinton? Al Gore? just a sample of the powerful leaders that SWEAR TO GOD and have NO DOUBT of Sadams WMD's...

Did Clinton or Gore invade Iraq?


Did they shoot missles? but more importantly did they also believ and even make SPEECHES about their dire need to take action if Sadam doesn;t get rid of his WMD'S? what actions do you think that they were referring to when they claimed that? more strong worded letters? if that was the case then why did he even send missle over there?
whyt not only write letters and use "mean" words??
 
2013-03-20 08:30:34 AM

sendtodave: UNC_Samurai: Technically, the last time the United States issued a Declaration of War was 5 June 1942 (Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary).  We apparently forgot to declare war on Germany's allies the week after Pearl Harbor.

It's easier to fight a war if your troops are all already there.


The only place we already were, were the Pacific and preparing for an invasion of Vichy French North Africa - controlled by two powers that declared war on us first.  And we never actually engaged any of Germany's east European allies in major combat operations.

Oddly enough, that was also the last year we had a sanctioned privateer operating for the U.S. - the Goodyear airship Resolute.  Sadly, Congress never authorized an official Letter of Marque for the blimp.
 
2013-03-20 08:30:35 AM
Americans know the Price of Everything and the Value of Nothing.
 
2013-03-20 08:31:35 AM

Bartman66: Without Fail: Bartman66: Funny how quickly the left ONLY blame the "others" and not their own. Bill Clinton? Al Gore? just a sample of the powerful leaders that SWEAR TO GOD and have NO DOUBT of Sadams WMD's...

Did Clinton or Gore invade Iraq?

Did they shoot missles? but more importantly did they also believ and even make SPEECHES about their dire need to take action if Sadam doesn;t get rid of his WMD'S? what actions do you think that they were referring to when they claimed that? more strong worded letters? if that was the case then why did he even send missle over there?
whyt not only write letters and use "mean" words??


How exactly is Operation Desert Fox an excuse for the failures of the Bush administration?
 
2013-03-20 08:32:03 AM
 
2013-03-20 08:32:14 AM

muck4doo: Without Fail: Bartman66: Funny how quickly the left ONLY blame the "others" and not their own. Bill Clinton? Al Gore? just a sample of the powerful leaders that SWEAR TO GOD and have NO DOUBT of Sadams WMD's...

Did Clinton or Gore invade Iraq?

They were getting busy in Yugoslavia at the time


I think you mean New Vietnam.
 
2013-03-20 08:32:32 AM

Linux_Yes: El_Swino: Meh.  Liberal plant.  Not a real American.


Real American(tm)


Be mad at the war mongering idiots that are ruining your party. Look on this thread. You will see them.
 
2013-03-20 08:33:09 AM

M11618: Alphax: M11618: Well he doesn't speak for me (Marine Infantry Vet) I see nothing heroic in writing a letter to 2 men who aren't popular about a war that the majority of Americans don't like now. You liked it in 2003. Whatever, I'm glad we went in. No more Saddam, under him Iraq had no chance. At least it had a chance now. Hopefully no more state sanctioned rapes, murders, torture (and I mean real torture, acid, hooks, fire, etc, not water being dumped on your face). Iraqis thanked me for helping oust Saddam, I value their opinion over y'all's, most of who have never been with 8 thousand miles of Iraq.

What kind of mental block does it take to think that a country that's been invaded and occupied has less rape, murder, and torture than before?

Youre an idiot. Saddam ran rape rooms and torture camps, is he still their doing it now? I could have sworn they hung his ass. My understanding of the situation is now the government isn't hanging people from meat hook s and burning them with hot irons, nor are they shoving people feet first into wood chippers. But let's look at what's really important. You got to protest against Bush who you didn't like and now y get to feel smug about it. That's what's


Saddam Hussein's not there doing it, but Noor al-Maliki is.

Iraq is wracked by detentions, torture, and executions, and fingers are pointing at Prime Minister Maliki.
Heba al-Shamary (name changed for security reasons) was released last week from an Iraqi prison where she spent the last four years.

"I was tortured and raped repeatedly by the Iraqi security forces," she told Al Jazeera. "I want to tell the world what I and other Iraqi women in prison have had to go through these last years. It has been a hell."

Heba was charged with terrorism, a fate faced by many Iraqis who are detained by security forces.

"I now want to explain to people what is occurring in the prisons that [Prime Minister Nouri al-] Maliki and his gangs are running," Heba added. "I was raped over and over again, I was kicked and beaten and insulted and spit upon."

 ....

One Iraqi woman, speaking on condition of anonymity, said her nephew was first detained when he was just 18. Held under the infamous Article Four which gives the government the ability to arrest anyone "suspected" of terrorism, he was charged with terrorism. She told, in detail, of how her nephew was treated:

"They beat him with metal pipes, used harsh curse words and swore against his sect and his Allah (because he is Sunni) and why God was not helping him, and that they would bring up the prisoners' mothers and sisters to rape them," she explained to Al Jazeera.  "Then they used electricity to burn different places of his body. They took all his cloths off in winter and left them naked out in the yard to freeze."


 But you're right. Iraq is better off now. That murdering asshole has been replaced by an America-approved murdering asshole!
 
2013-03-20 08:35:54 AM
So sad. Hopefully Obama keeps up the drone strikes and takes out as many asshole furriners as he can. Vote Democrat 2016!
 
2013-03-20 08:36:02 AM

Bartman66: Without Fail: Bartman66: Funny how quickly the left ONLY blame the "others" and not their own. Bill Clinton? Al Gore? just a sample of the powerful leaders that SWEAR TO GOD and have NO DOUBT of Sadams WMD's...

Did Clinton or Gore invade Iraq?

Did they shoot missles? but more importantly did they also believ and even make SPEECHES about their dire need to take action if Sadam doesn;t get rid of his WMD'S? what actions do you think that they were referring to when they claimed that? more strong worded letters? if that was the case then why did he even send missle over there?
whyt not only write letters and use "mean" words??


If that's true and those politicians were speaking more than just making strong rhetoric, what stopped Bush Sr. from finishing the job when Saddam was actually a threat to the international community? The neocons were foaming at the mouth for it back then, too. Why? Because of something realists call containment in international relations.

The Bush admin gleefully lied this nation into war, and most of the country, still farked in the head from 9/11, was all too happy to follow along. It was basically fascism in America at that point. There are plenty of spineless and corrupt Dems who went along, but I suggest you look up the speech on the Senator Byrd gave before the war started, and remember that the current president won the Democratic primary largely because he was against the war from the start.

Watching Republicans try to worm out of their place as the guys who royally farked the country during the 00's is pathetic. Those who remember how it went down will never let you take that albatross off from around your neck.
 
2013-03-20 08:36:19 AM

sex0r: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

Too late.  It came in the form of "hope and change."


If you ever wondered how on earth a lying, drug-using, under-achieving, draft-dodging, illiterate, inarticulate, retarded faux-cowboy could ever get voted to the Presidency for one term, let alone two, all it takes is a voting bloc full of sex0rs.
 
2013-03-20 08:36:22 AM
Not really sure about Dick but his volcabulary is way over the Village Idiots head......RIP Thomas
 
2013-03-20 08:36:27 AM
I love that Republicans try to rationalize Iraq by mentioning Democratic support.  "Hey, you should have known better than to trust us!"
 
2013-03-20 08:38:24 AM
And I would like to say fark you Obama for not going after the war criminals of the Bush admin.
 
2013-03-20 08:38:42 AM
I sympathize what happened to this man and the untold tens of thousands of wounded veterans whose lives have been ruined by these wars, but never seem to reach the headlines.  I understand his frustration over having his and other veterans' lives sacrificed for an ambiguous and falsely-premised cause.  However:

"I would not be writing this letter if I had been wounded fighting in Afghanistan against those forces that carried out the attacks of 9/11."
 

I'm sorry, sir, but you don't get to choose whose ass you get to personally kick when you volunteer for the military.  I find it hard to sympathize with this angle of his rant, nor do I particularly understand his supposition that Bush personally profited from the war.  There is an undertone in this letter that reads much like an OWS pamphlet, and were I a wounded veteran, I might ask him to refrain from claiming to speak on my behalf.
 
2013-03-20 08:39:03 AM
Are we really going to argue the differences between targeted drone strikes and a full out ground invasion/occupation based on falsified intelligence?

Well, golly, that Obama is totally just as bad.
 
2013-03-20 08:40:17 AM

keylock71: sendtodave: keylock71: in my mind, the Bush Administration bares the responsibility for all these lost lives. It was their decision to commit forces. It was their decision to invade a country half-assed with no defined victory conditions. Does that absolve the folks who allowed themselves to be led by their noses by the Bush Administration into a senseless war? No.

I wholly agree.

I just finished reading this book a few weeks back: To End All Wars

Obviously, it's about a completely different war in a completely different time, but the parallels between the run up to WWI and the Iraq War are interesting. Especially with regards to the way dissenting voices were treated.

Worth a read, if you're so inclined.


Even though I was blindly pro-war at the time, I always hated both sides using false analogies to justify their position on the war.  The anti-war crowd tried to compare Iraq to Vietnam, as if we were fighting a proxy Cold War brushfire in Iraq with a superpower funneling in military aid (which, it turns out, didn't happen until we occupied the country and Al-Queda took advantage of the chaos we put in place).  I was equally irritated by the drumbeats in the pro-war camp equivocating Hussein with Hitler and trying to compare 2002-2003 to 1938-39 - as if Iraq was attempting to annex client states throughout the region and the rest of the world was trying to avoid another war of attrition brought on by monarchies subservient to their war ministers.

We tried to fight a 20th century war all over again; we were told (and he hoped) it was going to be the second round of Desert Storm.  But that conflict in 1990-91 poisoned our understanding of war, and sadly I and a lot of other people didn't realize that until almost two years too late.
 
2013-03-20 08:40:33 AM

muck4doo: So sad. Hopefully Obama keeps up the drone strikes and takes out as many asshole furriners as he can. Vote Democrat 2016!


And if it was a GOPer, you'd be defending him tooth and nail, shill.  No one buys your shiat, so sell it to some mongoloids in your home town.
 
2013-03-20 08:40:42 AM
You sent us to fight and die in Iraq after you, Mr. Cheney, dodged the draft in Vietnam, and you, Mr. Bush, went AWOL from your National Guard unit. Your cowardice and selfishness were established decades ago. You were not willing to risk yourselves for our nation but you sent hundreds of thousands of young men and women to be sacrificed in a senseless war with no more thought than it takes to put out the garbage.

powerful words.
 
2013-03-20 08:41:11 AM

HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: Here you are saying stupid shiat. But you are already used to that.

Names of actual conservatives please. Put up or shut up.

I asked you to give me a quote of mine first supporting war, and you never did. Do you really want quotes supporting war mongering from Democrats?

Who are the "actual conservatives" that weren't happy with Bush? Why won't you take this opportunity to infrom us who the "actual conservatives" are? This way we won't need to rely on the fake conservatives that endlessly heaped praise on him.


Bruce Bartlett, former Reagan aide. He eventually came around. Current SECDEF Chuck Hagel wasn't a fan of OIF.
 
2013-03-20 08:41:11 AM
Obama supporters=war criminals
 
2013-03-20 08:43:06 AM
I've not heard this read in the US, but for what it's worth:

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old,
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn,
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
We will remember them.


~for the fallen Laurence Binyon
 
2013-03-20 08:43:41 AM

lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."


Or telling you that you have to do your part by paying your fair share.....

Still no blame for obama keeping troops over there, this shouldn't surprise me at all coming from fark.
 
2013-03-20 08:43:55 AM

coeyagi: muck4doo: So sad. Hopefully Obama keeps up the drone strikes and takes out as many asshole furriners as he can. Vote Democrat 2016!

And if it was a GOPer, you'd be defending him tooth and nail, shill.  No one buys your shiat, so sell it to some mongoloids in your home town.


No. I said it was wrong then, i say it is wrong now. Dems say it was wrong then but goddam high five! we just killed another brownie! now.
 
2013-03-20 08:44:39 AM

HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: Here you are saying stupid shiat. But you are already used to that.

Names of actual conservatives please. Put up or shut up.

I asked you to give me a quote of mine first supporting war, and you never did. Do you really want quotes supporting war mongering from Democrats?

Who are the "actual conservatives" that weren't happy with Bush? Why won't you take this opportunity to infrom us who the "actual conservatives" are? This way we won't need to rely on the fake conservatives that endlessly heaped praise on him.


I genuinely thought that Walter "Freedom Fries" Jones had a moment of clarity in 2006 when he was one of the first Republicans in Congress to admit we had made a mistake.  Then we figured out he was doing it just to hedge his bets against a potential challenge in the election.
 
2013-03-20 08:45:09 AM

lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."


i.imgur.com
 
2013-03-20 08:45:22 AM

muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: Here you are saying stupid shiat. But you are already used to that.

Names of actual conservatives please. Put up or shut up.

I asked you to give me a quote of mine first supporting war, and you never did. Do you really want quotes supporting war mongering from Democrats?

Who are the "actual conservatives" that weren't happy with Bush? Why won't you take this opportunity to infrom us who the "actual conservatives" are? This way we won't need to rely on the fake conservatives that endlessly heaped praise on him.

Who the fark cares?


You're the one that brought these mystery "actual conservatives" up.

You're going to get your talking points from Daily Kos and TPM anyways.

I'm sorry, I don't visit these sites.

You don't give a rats ass what conservatives actually say.

Which conservatives? Do you have any names? Because again, I'm happy to bury you in quotes from conservatives praising Bush for his staunch conservatism. But maybe they aren't "actual conservatives", so you could clear all that up for us with your list.
 
2013-03-20 08:45:29 AM

muck4doo: Okay, This is what you Republican trolls will never get. You hate the lesser peoples. Democrats take care of lesser peoples.


Whiny Republican tears are the best kind of tears muck.
 
2013-03-20 08:46:32 AM

Dr.Zom: Yogimus: You know what makes me weep? How everyone OTHER than those two get a complete pass.

/lookin at you congress

We'll never know what Cheney's Intel Unit was telling those guys behind the scenes. I distinctly remember one congressman saying Cheney's people told him Saddam had drones that could reach the east coast with nerve gas. Total BS, but scary. They wanted war, they got it, and they killed anybody who got in their way.

I've looked for that article since and it's pretty much gone down the memory hole like so much other stuff.

Still, they should have know they were liars. I could tell and I'm nobody.


It's very easy for regular people like us to immediately dismiss or distrust claims like drones with nerve gas, Colin Powell's vial of super poison, and the like.  When you're a member of Congress and senior state department and pentagon officials tell you to your face about these threats, I imagine you take them a bit more seriously.  Some in Congress certainly wanted to believe it (the usual crowd of warmongers and manifest destiny types) but many accepted what they were told because the respected the source of the lie.

Besides, this is just a talking point to pin the blame for the whole mess on Democrats who were lied to.
 
2013-03-20 08:47:00 AM
Obama has done nothing but expand the war and continue to eliminate civil  liberties.  The left showed themselves as the traitors they really are when the "anti-war" that were so vocal during the Bush years haven't been heard from since Obama took office.
 
2013-03-20 08:48:32 AM
www.usnews.com
 
2013-03-20 08:48:43 AM
verbaltoxin:

But you're right. Iraq is better off now. That murdering asshole has been replaced by an America-approved murdering asshole!

But at least we didn't 'cut and run'!!!!
 
2013-03-20 08:48:49 AM

steamingpile: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

Or telling you that you have to do your part by paying your fair share.....


Progressive taxation? How does that work?

Still no blame for obama keeping troops over there, this shouldn't surprise me at all coming from fark.

Obama, Karzai accelerating handover of combat operations
 
2013-03-20 08:52:32 AM

lordaction: Obama has done nothing but expand the war and continue to eliminate civil  liberties.  The left showed themselves as the traitors they really are when the "anti-war" that were so vocal during the Bush years haven't been heard from since Obama took office.


The republicans have done something that is not reversible. Something so f*cking wrong and horrible that human beings will NEVER see the end of it.

DO YOU F*CKING GET IT? DO YOU F*CKING UNDESTAND?
 
2013-03-20 08:54:20 AM

UNC_Samurai: The anti-war crowd tried to compare Iraq to Vietnam, as if we were fighting a proxy Cold War brushfire in Iraq with a superpower funneling in military aid (which, it turns out, didn't happen until we occupied the country and Al-Queda took advantage of the chaos we put in place).


Well, we made it another Vietnam.  So, really, anyone who said "this will turn into another Vietnam fiasco" was right.
 
2013-03-20 08:55:38 AM

muck4doo: Give me quotes on what I said.


Sure.

muck4doo: No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.


So who are these actual conservatives we should be looking at?
 
2013-03-20 08:57:12 AM

HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: Give me quotes on what I said.

Sure.

muck4doo: No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.

So who are these actual conservatives we should be looking at?


So quote me. You war mongerer.
 
2013-03-20 08:59:03 AM

sendtodave: UNC_Samurai: The anti-war crowd tried to compare Iraq to Vietnam, as if we were fighting a proxy Cold War brushfire in Iraq with a superpower funneling in military aid (which, it turns out, didn't happen until we occupied the country and Al-Queda took advantage of the chaos we put in place).

Well, we made it another Vietnam.  So, really, anyone who said "this will turn into another Vietnam fiasco" was right.


Antiwar hippies like then-Sen. Chuck Hagel compared it to Vietnam. Why can't he go smoke a doob and join a drum circle someplace else?
 
2013-03-20 08:59:03 AM

muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: Give me quotes on what I said.

Sure.

muck4doo: No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.

So who are these actual conservatives we should be looking at?

So quote me. You war mongerer.


I just did. Now give us some names and quotes from actual conservatives. Or are you just a full of shiat revisionist?
 
2013-03-20 09:01:41 AM
Well, as long as the war of attrition for/against Muck4Doo kills this thread, I guess we can claim it's a success?
 
2013-03-20 09:02:51 AM

HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: Here you are saying stupid shiat. But you are already used to that.

Names of actual conservatives please. Put up or shut up.

I asked you to give me a quote of mine first supporting war, and you never did. Do you really want quotes supporting war mongering from Democrats?

Who are the "actual conservatives" that weren't happy with Bush? Why won't you take this opportunity to infrom us who the "actual conservatives" are? This way we won't need to rely on the fake conservatives that endlessly heaped praise on him.

Who the fark cares?

You're the one that brought these mystery "actual conservatives" up.

You're going to get your talking points from Daily Kos and TPM anyways.

I'm sorry, I don't visit these sites.

You don't give a rats ass what conservatives actually say.

Which conservatives? Do you have any names? Because again, I'm happy to bury you in quotes from conservatives praising Bush for his staunch conservatism. But maybe they aren't "actual conservatives", so you could clear all that up for us with your list.


For what it's worth, Lincoln Chaffee did vote against the Iraq War Resolution.  He was the only Senate Republican to do so.  And for his courage he was almost primaried by a social conservative knuckle-dragger in 2006.  And five House Republicans not named Ron Paul.  Jimmy Duncan can be a social conservative dick on social issues, but he consistently voted against measures supporting and funding the Iraq War.  John Hostettler lost his seat in 2006 to a social conservative Democrat.  Amo Houghton retired after his 2003-2005 term (he was also one of the few House Republicans to vote against Clinton's impeachment).  Jim Leach could have survived the 2006 elections had he not refused to play ball with the anti-way social conservative groups.  Connie Morella lost in the 2002 election because after Maryland's post-2000-Census redistricting, MD-8 was made much more Democratic.
<