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(TruthDig)   The Last Letter: A Message to George W. Bush and Dick Cheney From a Dying Veteran   (truthdig.com) divider line 880
    More: Hero, George W. Bush, Sadr, selfishness, Iraq War, veterans  
•       •       •

27237 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Mar 2013 at 12:24 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-20 12:36:38 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: sendtodave: log_jammin: sendtodave: log_jammin: In what way was the guy who wrote the letter wrong?

I joined the Army two days after the 9/11 attacks. I joined the Army because our country had been attacked. I wanted to strike back at those who had killed some 3,000 of my fellow citizens.

ok?

OK.

That's how he was wrong.

No.


Yes.

And no tag backs.

/a soldier can't be pro-war descriminately
 
2013-03-20 12:37:23 PM
Another reason why the USA in some ways is the GREATEST country in the world.

Let's be gut wrenching honest here shall we.. if everything else being equal except Bush, Rumsfeld Cheney, Wolfowitz etc are not Americans they would have been charge with war crimes and stood trial at The Hague.

Many dictators, leaders, head of state etc in the past have stood trial for much lesser crimes against humanity.
 
2013-03-20 12:40:02 PM

trey101: Alphax: trey101: NOW THE DEMOCRATS SAY PRESIDENT BUSH LIED, THAT THERE NEVER WERE ANY WMD'S AND HE TOOK US TO WAR FOR HIS OIL BUDDIES??? Right!!!

^this... this is what is recognized by the left... not the actual quotes attributed by the leaders on the left.

yet no one on the left biatches about the drone strikes by Obama... why is that?


Actually, people on the left are biatching about it al lthe time, but that doesn't fit your world-view, so you just ignore it.
 
2013-03-20 12:47:49 PM

SuperNinjaToad: .......and this is why the DoD is so keen on ramping up drone production. Drones don;t biatch and are 100% amoral. They are programmed to do their jobs.

Wars will be cleanly fought with very little overhead, political liabilities and consequences in the future when drone armies and automatons replace human soldiers.

The invading country will also has little to no public backlash because as long as no one's kid is dead the public will go on it's merry way even if drones are killing humans.

If wars are easy to justify nowadays they will be a cakewalk in the future when drone armies become realities. It's already happening now with the Predator etc... it will only get easier.


ts4.mm.bing.net
 
2013-03-20 01:00:12 PM

KrispyKritter: This man volunteered, this was not a draft. Repeatedly he shows in the letter he is unwilling/unable to accept that he alone is responsible for his own actions.


He volunteered under the impression that his leaders were honorable.  They turned out to be treasonous scum.
 
2013-03-20 01:01:02 PM

Mentat: And Dick Cheney will never care.


nor will any other member of that cabal of narcissists and liars who are, if you think that way, bound for hell, as rep jones from NC came to realize: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/02/25/republican-congressman-dick-che n ey-is-going-to-hell-for-the-iraq-war/

only richard clarke took responsibility for something. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_A._Clarke#9.2F11_Commission

remember what it was like to oppose the invasion 8, 9, 10 years ago? remember the things you were called (like clarke was)? remember the insanity of the jingoes? don't ever forget that folks, because they're still here and can't wait to do it all again, substituting iran or syria for iraq.
 
2013-03-20 01:02:51 PM
Thread:   TL;DR
 
2013-03-20 01:03:53 PM
This is at least the 10th time I have linked to a story or as in this case posted the whole letter in another related thread, only to see it as a main thread the next day.

/Fark people, come up with your own topics, links, etc.
 
2013-03-20 01:06:28 PM

give me doughnuts: trey101: Alphax: trey101: NOW THE DEMOCRATS SAY PRESIDENT BUSH LIED, THAT THERE NEVER WERE ANY WMD'S AND HE TOOK US TO WAR FOR HIS OIL BUDDIES??? Right!!!

^this... this is what is recognized by the left... not the actual quotes attributed by the leaders on the left.

yet no one on the left biatches about the drone strikes by Obama... why is that?

Actually, people on the left are biatching about it al lthe time, but that doesn't fit your world-view, so you just ignore it.


Why do they care anyways?

They are FOR this shiat, right?

Am I right? Why do republicans seriously think this proves a point?

They want the war AND Obama seems to want it as well. What's the big farking problem?

Win win, no?

They get to pride around calling this letter writer a junky and say they have no sympathy for him. They are still selling the war and blaming dems for it.

They're going to do this again. Republicans WILL start more wars. Wake up people. This isn't over.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-03-20 01:19:11 PM

I'm an Egyptian!: Not trolling, just showing you how piss poor your argument is. Your response to this individual regarding his service is basically bought the ticket, knew what he was getting into, etc. As an example

"This guy is blaming Bush and Cheney because he experienced the hazards of joining the military."

So what's the difference for the others who volunteered? After all, I volunteered back in 1991, and disagreed with going to Iraq. I still went. I am blaming Bush and Cheney because I experienced the hazards of joining the military? If you take your blinders off for a split second, you may see it's not only the injuries, its the bullshiat causus belli that he primarily takes issue with. So what is it that makes you say he should suck it up, versus another Vet who presents to the VA with PTSD and TBI issues? They willingly volunteered, does that mean they shouldn't complain when they are dealing with the aftereffects of service? If they shouldn't, then why have the VA in the first place?

Does his letter make you uncomfortable to the point that you'll find any excuse to resolve that cognitive dissonance?


I have no inner conflict in this matter. My biggest point stands that you should not gripe about a situation so clearly a product of your choices (you join the armed forces, you end up having to serve in combat). That the cause of the war was a conjured up pot full of crap is NOT the point. Do not join if you don't like the possibility you will be ordered to do something in support of a possibly very bad idea or decision. We are free here in this country to chose to not serve, and also to vote out the ones who fail us, or do that which we disagree with (at least that is what SHOULD be happening, absent of the apathy that abounds here).

For the record, I feel if we go after Bush/Cheney all the people who fed them the data/intell/analysis must also go along for the ride.
We must not prosecute only the face of the failed action, but those whose complicity in the matter did aid and abet it.
Do you feel differently? Wouldn't justice be served more fully in this manner?
 
2013-03-20 01:24:51 PM

gja: That the cause of the war was a conjured up pot full of crap is NOT the point.


oh yes, yes it is.
 
2013-03-20 01:26:06 PM
Mentat: And Dick Cheney will never care.

Of course not. Republican or Democrat, the goal of every politician is power and other people are merely tools to be used to gain or keep power.

Until the average Joe realizes that no matter who you vote for, the government always wins then you'll always end up getting the sort end of the stick.
 
2013-03-20 01:26:49 PM

gja: I'm an Egyptian!: Not trolling, just showing you how piss poor your argument is. Your response to this individual regarding his service is basically bought the ticket, knew what he was getting into, etc. As an example

"This guy is blaming Bush and Cheney because he experienced the hazards of joining the military."

So what's the difference for the others who volunteered? After all, I volunteered back in 1991, and disagreed with going to Iraq. I still went. I am blaming Bush and Cheney because I experienced the hazards of joining the military? If you take your blinders off for a split second, you may see it's not only the injuries, its the bullshiat causus belli that he primarily takes issue with. So what is it that makes you say he should suck it up, versus another Vet who presents to the VA with PTSD and TBI issues? They willingly volunteered, does that mean they shouldn't complain when they are dealing with the aftereffects of service? If they shouldn't, then why have the VA in the first place?

Does his letter make you uncomfortable to the point that you'll find any excuse to resolve that cognitive dissonance?

I have no inner conflict in this matter. My biggest point stands that you should not gripe about a situation so clearly a product of your choices (you join the armed forces, you end up having to serve in combat). That the cause of the war was a conjured up pot full of crap is NOT the point. Do not join if you don't like the possibility you will be ordered to do something in support of a possibly very bad idea or decision. We are free here in this country to chose to not serve, and also to vote out the ones who fail us, or do that which we disagree with (at least that is what SHOULD be happening, absent of the apathy that abounds here).

For the record, I feel if we go after Bush/Cheney all the people who fed them the data/intell/analysis must also go along for the ride.
We must not prosecute only the face of the failed action, but those whose complicity i ...


==================

Yes, they should all be tried on war crimes
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-03-20 01:29:00 PM

que.guero: Mentat: And Dick Cheney will never care.

Of course not. Republican or Democrat, the goal of every politician is power and other people are merely tools to be used to gain or keep power.

Until the average Joe realizes that no matter who you vote for, the government always wins then you'll always end up getting the sort end of the stick.


Here you are sir,
encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
 
2013-03-20 01:29:24 PM

RockofAges: jso2897: Bartman66: Yogimus: You know what makes me weep? How everyone OTHER than those two get a complete pass.

/lookin at you congress

THIS
Funny how quickly the left ONLY blame the "others" and not their own. Bill Clinton? Al Gore? just a sample of the powerful leaders that SWEAR TO GOD and have NO DOUBT of Sadams WMD's ... but hey ... can't blame anyone else but b-b-b-b-BUSH

More importantly, it doesn't matter anymore. You have to go all the way back to the cold war to see when and where our policy in the middle east started going wrong, and none of the laying of blame is going to fix it now.
I like Obama, and voted for him - but I do not deceive myself into thinking that he has brought us anything but a slightly more moderate version of the same old broken policy.
At some point soon, we are going to have to choose between being a healthy, prosperous sovereign nation, and being cop and nanny to an ungrateful and undeserving world - and until we face, and make that choice, nothing is really going to change.

The only problem is, the neither of those scenarios are likely to hold as China basically barrels over North America and the "old ways" due to, frankly, the last 20 years of "free trade" and our own richest elites selling the rest of us down the river, pouring money into China and other developing nations.

Do you think the United States will be able to enforce ANYTHING internationally in 20 years? Maybe against the third-world shiatholes they currently do, but forget about "enforcing" anything as "cop" anywhere else. The USA is about to get a shiatkicking due to the extreme poor fiscal and social policy enacted over the past 20 years (primarily by GOP actors, maybe 70% of it, but certainly not all of it).

If you wanted a stronger nation of stronger people, you should have turned to democratic socialism or social democracy and actually built public infrastructure and retained your own wealth instead of shipping it all away for profits for the top 1% of yo ...


You say that as if you think you are disagreeing with or correcting me in some fashion.
Odd.
 
2013-03-20 01:29:37 PM

gja: For the record, I feel if we go after Bush/Cheney all the people who fed them the data/intell/analysis must also go along for the ride.
We must not prosecute only the face of the failed action, but those whose complicity in the matter did aid and abet it.
Do you feel differently? Wouldn't justice be served more fully in this manner?


We'll do that the next time one of you sick f*cking republicans starts a war. Bush/Cheney are going to get away with this.

We don't have a time machine. But now we now what to do ahead of time. Thanks, Bush.
 
2013-03-20 01:30:22 PM

sendtodave: SpectroBoy: farkingismybusiness: From pain...
[img.gawkerassets.com image 850x478]
Comes art.

I think little Dubya now realizes that he was played like a fiddle by the real powers during his term. It's why he barely talks about his time as president.

He is starting to realize he was a useful fool. For a guy who had been told his whole life that he was special that has GOT to hurt.

"The Decider."

He just happend to decide, with fervent conviction, what others told him he should decide.

Huh.  Reminds me of many Evangelicals, really.


i.imgur.com
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-03-20 01:35:33 PM

Zoomaster: gja: I'm an Egyptian!: Not trolling, just showing you how piss poor your argument is. Your response to this individual regarding his service is basically bought the ticket, knew what he was getting into, etc. As an example

"This guy is blaming Bush and Cheney because he experienced the hazards of joining the military."

So what's the difference for the others who volunteered? After all, I volunteered back in 1991, and disagreed with going to Iraq. I still went. I am blaming Bush and Cheney because I experienced the hazards of joining the military? If you take your blinders off for a split second, you may see it's not only the injuries, its the bullshiat causus belli that he primarily takes issue with. So what is it that makes you say he should suck it up, versus another Vet who presents to the VA with PTSD and TBI issues? They willingly volunteered, does that mean they shouldn't complain when they are dealing with the aftereffects of service? If they shouldn't, then why have the VA in the first place?

Does his letter make you uncomfortable to the point that you'll find any excuse to resolve that cognitive dissonance?

I have no inner conflict in this matter. My biggest point stands that you should not gripe about a situation so clearly a product of your choices (you join the armed forces, you end up having to serve in combat). That the cause of the war was a conjured up pot full of crap is NOT the point. Do not join if you don't like the possibility you will be ordered to do something in support of a possibly very bad idea or decision. We are free here in this country to chose to not serve, and also to vote out the ones who fail us, or do that which we disagree with (at least that is what SHOULD be happening, absent of the apathy that abounds here).

For the record, I feel if we go after Bush/Cheney all the people who fed them the data/intell/analysis must also go along for the ride.
We must not prosecute only the face of the failed action, but those whose complic ...


Zoomaster: Yes, they should all be tried on war crimes


Good! That will be a good start, at least. Why is it so many are in the 'forest for the trees' blind-mode?

I wonder, how many here actually think Bush or Cheney came up with the ideas for the things they ordered done? Are people really that dense?
The ones around them fed them what they wanted them to see, and then further brought pressure to bear in the guise of 'advice' and 'advisory council'.
Come on people, Bush couldn't find the last fry in a brown bag for Christ's sake. Cheney shot a friend in the face, for the love of God.
You think these mental wood-fillers could engineer and execute all these shenanigans on their own?
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-03-20 01:37:30 PM

fisker: gja: For the record, I feel if we go after Bush/Cheney all the people who fed them the data/intell/analysis must also go along for the ride.
We must not prosecute only the face of the failed action, but those whose complicity in the matter did aid and abet it.
Do you feel differently? Wouldn't justice be served more fully in this manner?

We'll do that the next time one of you sick f*cking republicans starts a war. Bush/Cheney are going to get away with this.

We don't have a time machine. But now we now what to do ahead of time. Thanks, Bush.


I couldn't care less what names you call me, but when you call me a Republican be ready to come to NY and stand in my face an say that, farker.
 
2013-03-20 01:44:05 PM

gja: fisker: gja: For the record, I feel if we go after Bush/Cheney all the people who fed them the data/intell/analysis must also go along for the ride.
We must not prosecute only the face of the failed action, but those whose complicity in the matter did aid and abet it.
Do you feel differently? Wouldn't justice be served more fully in this manner?

We'll do that the next time one of you sick f*cking republicans starts a war. Bush/Cheney are going to get away with this.

We don't have a time machine. But now we now what to do ahead of time. Thanks, Bush.

I couldn't care less what names you call me, but when you call me a Republican be ready to come to NY and stand in my face an say that, farker.


You are a sick f*cking Republican who will stop at nothing to justify this war. You will say anything.

I would love to meet you. Say it right in your stupid face. You want to see how wimpy liberals are, motherfarker?
 
2013-03-20 01:48:29 PM

gja: I'm an Egyptian!:
I have no inner conflict in this matter. My biggest point stands that you should not gripe about a situation so clearly a product of your choices (you join the armed forces, you end up having to serve in combat). That the cause of the war was a conjured up pot full of crap is NOT the point. Do not join if you don't like the possibility you will be ordered to do something in support of a possibly very bad idea or decision. We are free here in this country to chose to not serve, and also to vote out the ones who fail us, or do that which we disagree with (at least that is what SHOULD be happening, absent of the apathy that abounds here).

For the record, I feel if we go after Bush/Cheney all the people who fed them the data/intell/analysis must also go along for the ride.
We must not prosecute only the face of the failed action, but those whose complicity i ...


If there should be no griping that the result was the product of his choices, then why have the VA? The injuries resultant from combat deployments are due to their choices. In hospital settings, when an individual presents for treatment, the usual statement in the note reads along the lines of "patient complains of (insert injury/malady here)." According to your argument, they should keep it to themselves, as these injuries were the product of their own choices. Why the statement that combat deployed veterans should be exempt from income taxes for life? Do you want to reward these individuals for making bad choices?

In addition, there is the question of informed choice. What you are assuming is perfect information, which doesn't exist. It never has, and it never will. Going by your reasoning, the individuals defrauded by Bernie Madoff should have no recourse, as they made their choices. They chose, so they reliquish their right to complain, correct? In the case of the ones that he holds responsible, he does not have the option to vote them out as you suggest, being they're already out of office. In light of this fact, he decided to write this letter. What, should he retroactively vote against them?

I would agree with you that you're not experiencing conflict, solely because you sent whatever conflict there may have been down the memory hole, and replaced it with a childish black and white view of the world. Let me guess, you're a Libertarian.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-03-20 01:49:25 PM

fisker: gja: fisker: gja: For the record, I feel if we go after Bush/Cheney all the people who fed them the data/intell/analysis must also go along for the ride.
We must not prosecute only the face of the failed action, but those whose complicity in the matter did aid and abet it.
Do you feel differently? Wouldn't justice be served more fully in this manner?

We'll do that the next time one of you sick f*cking republicans starts a war. Bush/Cheney are going to get away with this.

We don't have a time machine. But now we now what to do ahead of time. Thanks, Bush.

I couldn't care less what names you call me, but when you call me a Republican be ready to come to NY and stand in my face an say that, farker.

You are a sick f*cking Republican who will stop at nothing to justify this war. You will say anything.

I would love to meet you. Say it right in your stupid face. You want to see how wimpy liberals are, motherfarker?


I am not a repub, not for many a year.
Another ITG. Go buy a clue, clem.
 
2013-03-20 01:49:33 PM

Jim_Callahan: sendtodave: The first question is irrelevant when reality is seen through an ideological lens.

History ceases to exist.

So, um, sorta like blaming two members of the executive branch for a war pretty much universally approved by congress and encouraged by several of our international allies for reasons confirmed by our own intelligence guys?

Not sure being dumb enough to sign up for an infantry tour after 2001 makes this guy's opinion any more insightful or neutral than anyone else's.  Not that I'm a fan of the last administration, but c'mon, why are we down to half-assed blogs today?  Are there not any actual news sources with retrospectives on the war we could be greening?


Yeah, Dick and George were just some low-level faceless bureaucrats in the administration, amiright?  No point in blaming the leaders of the country for stuff the country does.

You know, I've tried to give you a chance to get a little smarter, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to add you to the permanent idiot list.
 
2013-03-20 01:52:27 PM
All wars are Banker's Wars.  So the the only way to honorably way fight a war is against the Rothschild Central Banking Cartel.  Even though 9 out 10 times you lose.
 
2013-03-20 01:53:31 PM

I'm an Egyptian!: Let me guess, you're a Libertarian.


Oh I think you got that one nailed. The supercilious attitude is a dead giveaway.
 
2013-03-20 01:58:49 PM
Guys, I've created a White House petition demanding that Bush, Cheney and Obama each individually reply with an open letter to this dying war veteran.

sign it : https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/demand-bush-cheney-and-obam a -officially-reply-open-letter-last-letter-written-dying-veteran/XvgrWl wL
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-03-20 01:59:41 PM

I'm an Egyptian!: If there should be no griping that the result was the product of his choices, then why have the VA? The injuries resultant from combat deployments are due to their choices. In hospital settings, when an individual presents for treatment, the usual statement in the note reads along the lines of "patient complains of (insert injury/malady here)." According to your argument, they should keep it to themselves, as these injuries were the product of their own choices. Why the statement that combat deployed veterans should be exempt from income taxes for life? Do you want to reward these individuals for making bad choices?

In addition, there is the question of informed choice. What you are assuming is perfect information, which doesn't exist. It never has, and it never will. Going by your reasoning, the individuals defrauded by Bernie Madoff should have no recourse, as they made their choices. They chose, so they reliquish their right to complain, correct? In the case of the ones that he holds responsible, he does not have the option to vote them out as you suggest, being they're already out of office. In light of this fact, he decided to write this letter. What, should he retroactively vote against them?

I would agree with you that you're not experiencing conflict, solely because you sent whatever conflict there may have been down the memory hole, and replaced it with a childish black and white view of the world. Let me guess, you're a Libertarian.


I am childish? More like you are being naive.

Never said to take it to the extreme of saying "let 'em burn". But informed consent is not something one should expect in the military, where one is ORDERED to do something. It is not reasonable to expect, and not realistic. Inherently there is a lack of choice in such an occupation. It is designed that way. You think superior officers should have to offer up a vote on what action to take in a situation?
My Fed tax exemption wist is to reduce the burden for those who served as a small gesture to help them when they rotate back from service.

Let's leave Madoff out of this thread. That is another thing entirely.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-03-20 02:02:03 PM

Wooly Bully: I'm an Egyptian!: Let me guess, you're a Libertarian.

Oh I think you got that one nailed. The supercilious attitude is a dead giveaway.


Says the poster using dollar words.
Not a libertarian either, but keep guessing.

/not supercilious, just don't like to see justice twisted and bent to fit an agenda
 
2013-03-20 02:02:54 PM

skullkrusher: fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu*k


Oh look who served his time. Already throwing a tantrum. This should be fun.
 
2013-03-20 02:03:30 PM

JKDGreg: Guys, I've created a White House petition demanding that Bush, Cheney and Obama each individually reply with an open letter to this dying war veteran.

sign it : https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/demand-bush-cheney-and-obam a -officially-reply-open-letter-last-letter-written-dying-veteran/XvgrWl wL


Signed it.. I was #2.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-03-20 02:03:50 PM

JKDGreg: Guys, I've created a White House petition demanding that Bush, Cheney and Obama each individually reply with an open letter to this dying war veteran.

sign it : https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/demand-bush-cheney-and-obam a -officially-reply-open-letter-last-letter-written-dying-veteran/XvgrWl wL


Signed. For all the good it may do.

/not convinced the first two can write a coherent reply without outside help, and the third will just farm it out because 'too busy'.
 
2013-03-20 02:04:35 PM

gja: Says the poster using dollar words.


"Dollar words"? Really? What are you, 12? Go share your enlightened views with your peers at 4chan.
 
2013-03-20 02:06:00 PM
Your positions of authority, your millions of dollars of personal wealth, your public relations consultants, your privilege and your power cannot mask the hollowness of your character.

Amen.
 
2013-03-20 02:08:13 PM

sendtodave: I would not be writing this letter if I had been wounded fighting in Afghanistan against those forces that carried out the attacks of 9/11. Had I been wounded there I would still be miserable because of my physical deterioration and imminent death, but I would at least have the comfort of knowing that my injuries were a consequence of my own decision to defend the country I love.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.  You chose to be part of a war machine?

Yours is not to reason why, yours is but to do and die.


Any time you sign up to follow orders that could include ones that will see you dead should you follow them (N.B.C. mask removal procedure for lowest/least essential personel). You don't get a say in where you go who you fight or how you might or might not get farked up. In the old days you could just leave an army because hey that king is an idiot and wants us to go fall on our swords.

Now days thats not possible - but it should be.

I'm not saying it should be something that should be used often but it should be an option.

/served four years in the army
//deployed twice
///with a farked up (L) eye
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-03-20 02:12:41 PM

Wooly Bully: gja: Says the poster using dollar words.

"Dollar words"? Really? What are you, 12? Go share your enlightened views with your peers at 4chan.


You are a pompous, pedantic, twit. I find it not without humor that your little graph in your profile places you well into the libertarian/left quadrant.
Yet 'libertarian' is being used derisively while aimed at me.
Most interesting, indeed.
 
2013-03-20 02:14:24 PM

sendtodave: log_jammin: As for him being "pro-war" in general, that's one big ass assumption about him, and everyone else who has ever been in the military.

Anyone that chooses to join the military is pro-war, unless they enjoycognitive dissonance.

I mean, that's their job.  War.

There is no conscientious objector in an all volunteer military, unless they are too dim to understand what the military exists for.


If you can't understand that sometimes people change their minds, then you might be a Republican.
 
2013-03-20 02:15:23 PM

Bartman66: DONE!!
This pretty much covers all of the crying / blaming all one side or saying that those poor dems were .. strong armed? or forced??lol..ya right...


Dial me in here, but wasn't Congress' vote on the Iraq invasion based on the intelligence they'd been presented by the White House? Intelligence we've learned was skewed and/or faked by the Bush Junta?

Hell, I don't even blame President Bush so much, as he was just the Friendly Smilin' Face telling us the plan. It was the Smart Guys like Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, etc. who thought they'd make a name for themselves as The Greatest-er Generation for waging war against Islamo-Fascism, and turn a buck in the process. George the Younger was no leader, but a GOP Product, sold to Homeland like so much Coke, Big Mac, and Gigantic shiatty Car.

They really screwed the armed forces. They violated the trust of earnest young Americans, starting off to rightly avenge 9/11 by punishing Afghanistan and Al Qaida, then changing the deal once the contract was signed and pressing Projeqt Iraq. Classic bait and switch. No goddamn good. And they've screwed the rest of us Americans by sticking us with the bill for caring for thousands of disabled vets for the next 50 years.
 
2013-03-20 02:18:36 PM

gja: I'm an Egyptian!: If there should be no griping that the result was the product of his choices, then why have the VA? The injuries resultant from combat deployments are due to their choices. In hospital settings, when an individual presents for treatment, the usual statement in the note reads along the lines of "patient complains of (insert injury/malady here)." According to your argument, they should keep it to themselves, as these injuries were the product of their own choices. Why the statement that combat deployed veterans should be exempt from income taxes for life? Do you want to reward these individuals for making bad choices?

In addition, there is the question of informed choice. What you are assuming is perfect information, which doesn't exist. It never has, and it never will. Going by your reasoning, the individuals defrauded by Bernie Madoff should have no recourse, as they made their choices. They chose, so they reliquish their right to complain, correct? In the case of the ones that he holds responsible, he does not have the option to vote them out as you suggest, being they're already out of office. In light of this fact, he decided to write this letter. What, should he retroactively vote against them?

I would agree with you that you're not experiencing conflict, solely because you sent whatever conflict there may have been down the memory hole, and replaced it with a childish black and white view of the world. Let me guess, you're a Libertarian.

I am childish? More like you are being naive.

Never said to take it to the extreme of saying "let 'em burn". But informed consent is not something one should expect in the military, where one is ORDERED to do something. It is not reasonable to expect, and not realistic. Inherently there is a lack of choice in such an occupation. It is designed that way. You think superior officers should have to offer up a vote on what action to take in a situation?
My Fed tax exemption wist is to reduce the burden for tho ...


Yes, you're being childish and inconsistent. Did you take it to the extreme of "let 'em burn"? Let's roll tape:

My biggest point stands that you should not gripe about a situation so clearly a product of your choices (you join the armed forces, you end up having to serve in combat). That the cause of the war was a conjured up pot full of crap is NOT the point. Do not join if you don't like the possibility you will be ordered to do something in support of a possibly very bad idea or decision.
-gja

According to your argument, if they made the choices, then they are TOTALLY and COMPLETELY responsible for said choices, and shouldn't be griping about them. If they do gripe, then " you should not gripe about a situation so clearly a product of your choices (you join the armed forces, you end up having to serve in combat) " When looking at that statement, I smell a bit of smoke, and you know what they say about smoke....

To address the strawman you so conveniently put out there, I never once insinuated that decisions by officers or NCOs should be put to a vote. Good ones will take additional counsel, information, and advice, but the ultimate decision is on the person giving the orders. However, when one enlists there is the assumption that one's life will not be considered carelessly. That's more than just cause for griping, and has gotten many a person removed from not only leadership positions, but from military service. I know, I've seen it. Hell, that's why the Inspector General office exists. In addition, didn't you say they have the choice, therefore bear responsibility for their actions. But then you state "But informed consent is not something one should expect in the military, where one is ORDERED to do something. " If someone is ORDERED to do something, choice is removed. So this guy should quit griping for something he was ordered to do, by someone he feels did not take due diligence in the decision-making process? In addition, the avenues you submitted in your black and white thinking, such as voting them out were not available? Again, is he supposed to retroactively vote against them? He did what he could, which was write this letter, which you are chastising him for.

In terms of my supposed naivete, slappy, let me put it to you this way. I've been there done that, and have the tshirt. I was in for 14 years. Numerous overseas training deployments, and a combat deployment to Baghdad, 04-05. What was your MOS?
 
2013-03-20 02:37:23 PM
I read the letter ... and then I read it again.

I want to buy this man a beer.
 
2013-03-20 02:44:40 PM
Ever since 10 years ago I have vowed to never vote for someone in any office who voted Yes on the authorization of powers act that gave Bush the greenlight in Iraq.  I don't care if the GOP puts Bachman on the ticket for 2016, I still won't vote for Hillary.
 
2013-03-20 02:48:35 PM

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: I think George Bush is already pretty much broken.  They say he stays inside all day and paints pictures of himself.


That's not nearly broken enough. Not even farking close.

Dear letter writer: You win. May you rest in peace.
 
2013-03-20 02:52:51 PM

NateGrey: skullkrusher: fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu*k

Oh look who served his time. Already throwing a tantrum. This should be fun.


how'd you know I had a ban... weird.

Yeah, that letter was heartbreaking. I was expressing my mental state in reaction to reading it. I don't think that's a tantrum. Do you? Of course not. Reported for trolling.
 
2013-03-20 03:30:20 PM

JKDGreg: Guys, I've created a White House petition demanding that Bush, Cheney and Obama each individually reply with an open letter to this dying war veteran.

sign it : https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/demand-bush-cheney-and-obam a -officially-reply-open-letter-last-letter-written-dying-veteran/XvgrWl wL


Yeah, that ain't how the USA works.

/Odd that you, like our letter writer here forgot Clinton and Gore, though.
 
2013-03-20 03:36:00 PM

fisker: gja: 

I would love to meet you. Say it right in your stupid face. You want to see how wimpy liberals are, motherfarker?


I know this thread is long, fisker, but gja is not a republican.
He's just not sympathetic to the veteran who wrote the letter, because the veteran was a volunteer.

And for further stuffs:
Anyone who thinks that a soldier is worth more than regular chattel, clearly doesn't think like a politician.

The only reason why we weren't fighting with drones earlier, is because at that point they were WAY more expensive, and most soldiers just died when they were shot/blown up.
Now, they live fairly frequently, due to medical advancements, but are more expensive to maintain in the long run. So, in order to justify cost cutting at VA's, they use more drones.
 
2013-03-20 03:36:54 PM

skullkrusher: NateGrey: skullkrusher: fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu*k

Oh look who served his time. Already throwing a tantrum. This should be fun.

how'd you know I had a ban... weird.

Yeah, that letter was heartbreaking. I was expressing my mental state in reaction to reading it. I don't think that's a tantrum. Do you? Of course not. Reported for trolling.


Skully!
 
2013-03-20 03:38:32 PM

tlars699: skullkrusher: NateGrey: skullkrusher: fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu*k

Oh look who served his time. Already throwing a tantrum. This should be fun.

how'd you know I had a ban... weird.

Yeah, that letter was heartbreaking. I was expressing my mental state in reaction to reading it. I don't think that's a tantrum. Do you? Of course not. Reported for trolling.

Skully!


yes?
 
2013-03-20 03:41:07 PM

GORDON: Fart_Machine: GORDON: I'm sorry, who was it that bore false witness?

You realize that many of those quotes are truncated, offer no context, or were made prior to Operation Desert Fox right?

Yes.  All of those democrats talking about Saddam's active WMD program in 2002 is totally out of context.

I was never in favor of the war, and never a huge fan of Bush, and I've even been an athiest for 30 years, but goddam do I hate the selective memory of knee-jerk Bush hating liberals.  The man actually worked with Congress that wasn't of his party.  Bills got signed.  Budgets got passed.  He had half the unemployment numbers of Obama.  Yet, he was the moron and Obama is the great leader.

Hey, anybody remember, "Bush Derangement Syndrome?"


Bear Stearns and Lehman Bros. crashed under Bush, in 2007 and 2008.  I know you're reaching for the amnesiac US majority, but I'm not part of them.
 
2013-03-20 03:41:20 PM
I saw this on Snopes last night and thought for sure it'd be fake.

I was so wrong.
 
2013-03-20 03:50:03 PM

fisker: gja: fisker: gja: For the record, I feel if we go after Bush/Cheney all the people who fed them the data/intell/analysis must also go along for the ride.
We must not prosecute only the face of the failed action, but those whose complicity in the matter did aid and abet it.
Do you feel differently? Wouldn't justice be served more fully in this manner?

We'll do that the next time one of you sick f*cking republicans starts a war. Bush/Cheney are going to get away with this.

We don't have a time machine. But now we now what to do ahead of time. Thanks, Bush.

I couldn't care less what names you call me, but when you call me a Republican be ready to come to NY and stand in my face an say that, farker.

You are a sick f*cking Republican who will stop at nothing to justify this war. You will say anything.

I would love to meet you. Say it right in your stupid face. You want to see how wimpy liberals are, motherfarker?

 
2013-03-20 03:51:46 PM

Yogimus: Dr.Zom: Yogimus: You know what makes me weep? How everyone OTHER than those two get a complete pass.

/lookin at you congress

We'll never know what Cheney's Intel Unit was telling those guys behind the scenes. I distinctly remember one congressman saying Cheney's people told him Saddam had drones that could reach the east coast with nerve gas. Total BS, but scary. They wanted war, they got it, and they killed anybody who got in their way.

I've looked for that article since and it's pretty much gone down the memory hole like so much other stuff.

Still, they should have know they were liars. I could tell and I'm nobody.

Before we get too carried away here,  please remember that there WERE nerve agents in Iraq, which was the whole issue behind the whole U.N. inspection teams finding the storage areas unsealed after they secured them.  Furthermore, the military has been steadily disposing those stockpiles since the war began.


That's true.  Bush did know Iraq had chemical weapons because his dad had the receipts.
 
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