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(TruthDig)   The Last Letter: A Message to George W. Bush and Dick Cheney From a Dying Veteran   (truthdig.com) divider line 884
    More: Hero, George W. Bush, Sadr, selfishness, Iraq War, veterans  
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27233 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Mar 2013 at 12:24 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-20 08:32:03 AM
 
2013-03-20 08:32:14 AM

muck4doo: Without Fail: Bartman66: Funny how quickly the left ONLY blame the "others" and not their own. Bill Clinton? Al Gore? just a sample of the powerful leaders that SWEAR TO GOD and have NO DOUBT of Sadams WMD's...

Did Clinton or Gore invade Iraq?

They were getting busy in Yugoslavia at the time


I think you mean New Vietnam.
 
2013-03-20 08:32:32 AM

Linux_Yes: El_Swino: Meh.  Liberal plant.  Not a real American.


Real American(tm)


Be mad at the war mongering idiots that are ruining your party. Look on this thread. You will see them.
 
2013-03-20 08:33:09 AM

M11618: Alphax: M11618: Well he doesn't speak for me (Marine Infantry Vet) I see nothing heroic in writing a letter to 2 men who aren't popular about a war that the majority of Americans don't like now. You liked it in 2003. Whatever, I'm glad we went in. No more Saddam, under him Iraq had no chance. At least it had a chance now. Hopefully no more state sanctioned rapes, murders, torture (and I mean real torture, acid, hooks, fire, etc, not water being dumped on your face). Iraqis thanked me for helping oust Saddam, I value their opinion over y'all's, most of who have never been with 8 thousand miles of Iraq.

What kind of mental block does it take to think that a country that's been invaded and occupied has less rape, murder, and torture than before?

Youre an idiot. Saddam ran rape rooms and torture camps, is he still their doing it now? I could have sworn they hung his ass. My understanding of the situation is now the government isn't hanging people from meat hook s and burning them with hot irons, nor are they shoving people feet first into wood chippers. But let's look at what's really important. You got to protest against Bush who you didn't like and now y get to feel smug about it. That's what's


Saddam Hussein's not there doing it, but Noor al-Maliki is.

Iraq is wracked by detentions, torture, and executions, and fingers are pointing at Prime Minister Maliki.
Heba al-Shamary (name changed for security reasons) was released last week from an Iraqi prison where she spent the last four years.

"I was tortured and raped repeatedly by the Iraqi security forces," she told Al Jazeera. "I want to tell the world what I and other Iraqi women in prison have had to go through these last years. It has been a hell."

Heba was charged with terrorism, a fate faced by many Iraqis who are detained by security forces.

"I now want to explain to people what is occurring in the prisons that [Prime Minister Nouri al-] Maliki and his gangs are running," Heba added. "I was raped over and over again, I was kicked and beaten and insulted and spit upon."

 ....

One Iraqi woman, speaking on condition of anonymity, said her nephew was first detained when he was just 18. Held under the infamous Article Four which gives the government the ability to arrest anyone "suspected" of terrorism, he was charged with terrorism. She told, in detail, of how her nephew was treated:

"They beat him with metal pipes, used harsh curse words and swore against his sect and his Allah (because he is Sunni) and why God was not helping him, and that they would bring up the prisoners' mothers and sisters to rape them," she explained to Al Jazeera.  "Then they used electricity to burn different places of his body. They took all his cloths off in winter and left them naked out in the yard to freeze."


 But you're right. Iraq is better off now. That murdering asshole has been replaced by an America-approved murdering asshole!
 
2013-03-20 08:35:54 AM
So sad. Hopefully Obama keeps up the drone strikes and takes out as many asshole furriners as he can. Vote Democrat 2016!
 
2013-03-20 08:36:02 AM

Bartman66: Without Fail: Bartman66: Funny how quickly the left ONLY blame the "others" and not their own. Bill Clinton? Al Gore? just a sample of the powerful leaders that SWEAR TO GOD and have NO DOUBT of Sadams WMD's...

Did Clinton or Gore invade Iraq?

Did they shoot missles? but more importantly did they also believ and even make SPEECHES about their dire need to take action if Sadam doesn;t get rid of his WMD'S? what actions do you think that they were referring to when they claimed that? more strong worded letters? if that was the case then why did he even send missle over there?
whyt not only write letters and use "mean" words??


If that's true and those politicians were speaking more than just making strong rhetoric, what stopped Bush Sr. from finishing the job when Saddam was actually a threat to the international community? The neocons were foaming at the mouth for it back then, too. Why? Because of something realists call containment in international relations.

The Bush admin gleefully lied this nation into war, and most of the country, still farked in the head from 9/11, was all too happy to follow along. It was basically fascism in America at that point. There are plenty of spineless and corrupt Dems who went along, but I suggest you look up the speech on the Senator Byrd gave before the war started, and remember that the current president won the Democratic primary largely because he was against the war from the start.

Watching Republicans try to worm out of their place as the guys who royally farked the country during the 00's is pathetic. Those who remember how it went down will never let you take that albatross off from around your neck.
 
2013-03-20 08:36:19 AM

sex0r: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

Too late.  It came in the form of "hope and change."


If you ever wondered how on earth a lying, drug-using, under-achieving, draft-dodging, illiterate, inarticulate, retarded faux-cowboy could ever get voted to the Presidency for one term, let alone two, all it takes is a voting bloc full of sex0rs.
 
2013-03-20 08:36:22 AM
Not really sure about Dick but his volcabulary is way over the Village Idiots head......RIP Thomas
 
2013-03-20 08:36:27 AM
I love that Republicans try to rationalize Iraq by mentioning Democratic support.  "Hey, you should have known better than to trust us!"
 
2013-03-20 08:38:24 AM
And I would like to say fark you Obama for not going after the war criminals of the Bush admin.
 
2013-03-20 08:38:42 AM
I sympathize what happened to this man and the untold tens of thousands of wounded veterans whose lives have been ruined by these wars, but never seem to reach the headlines.  I understand his frustration over having his and other veterans' lives sacrificed for an ambiguous and falsely-premised cause.  However:

"I would not be writing this letter if I had been wounded fighting in Afghanistan against those forces that carried out the attacks of 9/11."
 

I'm sorry, sir, but you don't get to choose whose ass you get to personally kick when you volunteer for the military.  I find it hard to sympathize with this angle of his rant, nor do I particularly understand his supposition that Bush personally profited from the war.  There is an undertone in this letter that reads much like an OWS pamphlet, and were I a wounded veteran, I might ask him to refrain from claiming to speak on my behalf.
 
2013-03-20 08:39:03 AM
Are we really going to argue the differences between targeted drone strikes and a full out ground invasion/occupation based on falsified intelligence?

Well, golly, that Obama is totally just as bad.
 
2013-03-20 08:40:17 AM

keylock71: sendtodave: keylock71: in my mind, the Bush Administration bares the responsibility for all these lost lives. It was their decision to commit forces. It was their decision to invade a country half-assed with no defined victory conditions. Does that absolve the folks who allowed themselves to be led by their noses by the Bush Administration into a senseless war? No.

I wholly agree.

I just finished reading this book a few weeks back: To End All Wars

Obviously, it's about a completely different war in a completely different time, but the parallels between the run up to WWI and the Iraq War are interesting. Especially with regards to the way dissenting voices were treated.

Worth a read, if you're so inclined.


Even though I was blindly pro-war at the time, I always hated both sides using false analogies to justify their position on the war.  The anti-war crowd tried to compare Iraq to Vietnam, as if we were fighting a proxy Cold War brushfire in Iraq with a superpower funneling in military aid (which, it turns out, didn't happen until we occupied the country and Al-Queda took advantage of the chaos we put in place).  I was equally irritated by the drumbeats in the pro-war camp equivocating Hussein with Hitler and trying to compare 2002-2003 to 1938-39 - as if Iraq was attempting to annex client states throughout the region and the rest of the world was trying to avoid another war of attrition brought on by monarchies subservient to their war ministers.

We tried to fight a 20th century war all over again; we were told (and he hoped) it was going to be the second round of Desert Storm.  But that conflict in 1990-91 poisoned our understanding of war, and sadly I and a lot of other people didn't realize that until almost two years too late.
 
2013-03-20 08:40:33 AM

muck4doo: So sad. Hopefully Obama keeps up the drone strikes and takes out as many asshole furriners as he can. Vote Democrat 2016!


And if it was a GOPer, you'd be defending him tooth and nail, shill.  No one buys your shiat, so sell it to some mongoloids in your home town.
 
2013-03-20 08:40:42 AM
You sent us to fight and die in Iraq after you, Mr. Cheney, dodged the draft in Vietnam, and you, Mr. Bush, went AWOL from your National Guard unit. Your cowardice and selfishness were established decades ago. You were not willing to risk yourselves for our nation but you sent hundreds of thousands of young men and women to be sacrificed in a senseless war with no more thought than it takes to put out the garbage.

powerful words.
 
2013-03-20 08:41:11 AM

HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: Here you are saying stupid shiat. But you are already used to that.

Names of actual conservatives please. Put up or shut up.

I asked you to give me a quote of mine first supporting war, and you never did. Do you really want quotes supporting war mongering from Democrats?

Who are the "actual conservatives" that weren't happy with Bush? Why won't you take this opportunity to infrom us who the "actual conservatives" are? This way we won't need to rely on the fake conservatives that endlessly heaped praise on him.


Bruce Bartlett, former Reagan aide. He eventually came around. Current SECDEF Chuck Hagel wasn't a fan of OIF.
 
2013-03-20 08:41:11 AM
Obama supporters=war criminals
 
2013-03-20 08:43:06 AM
I've not heard this read in the US, but for what it's worth:

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old,
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn,
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
We will remember them.


~for the fallen Laurence Binyon
 
2013-03-20 08:43:41 AM

lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."


Or telling you that you have to do your part by paying your fair share.....

Still no blame for obama keeping troops over there, this shouldn't surprise me at all coming from fark.
 
2013-03-20 08:43:55 AM

coeyagi: muck4doo: So sad. Hopefully Obama keeps up the drone strikes and takes out as many asshole furriners as he can. Vote Democrat 2016!

And if it was a GOPer, you'd be defending him tooth and nail, shill.  No one buys your shiat, so sell it to some mongoloids in your home town.


No. I said it was wrong then, i say it is wrong now. Dems say it was wrong then but goddam high five! we just killed another brownie! now.
 
2013-03-20 08:44:39 AM

HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: Here you are saying stupid shiat. But you are already used to that.

Names of actual conservatives please. Put up or shut up.

I asked you to give me a quote of mine first supporting war, and you never did. Do you really want quotes supporting war mongering from Democrats?

Who are the "actual conservatives" that weren't happy with Bush? Why won't you take this opportunity to infrom us who the "actual conservatives" are? This way we won't need to rely on the fake conservatives that endlessly heaped praise on him.


I genuinely thought that Walter "Freedom Fries" Jones had a moment of clarity in 2006 when he was one of the first Republicans in Congress to admit we had made a mistake.  Then we figured out he was doing it just to hedge his bets against a potential challenge in the election.
 
2013-03-20 08:45:09 AM

lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."


i.imgur.com
 
2013-03-20 08:45:22 AM

muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: Here you are saying stupid shiat. But you are already used to that.

Names of actual conservatives please. Put up or shut up.

I asked you to give me a quote of mine first supporting war, and you never did. Do you really want quotes supporting war mongering from Democrats?

Who are the "actual conservatives" that weren't happy with Bush? Why won't you take this opportunity to infrom us who the "actual conservatives" are? This way we won't need to rely on the fake conservatives that endlessly heaped praise on him.

Who the fark cares?


You're the one that brought these mystery "actual conservatives" up.

You're going to get your talking points from Daily Kos and TPM anyways.

I'm sorry, I don't visit these sites.

You don't give a rats ass what conservatives actually say.

Which conservatives? Do you have any names? Because again, I'm happy to bury you in quotes from conservatives praising Bush for his staunch conservatism. But maybe they aren't "actual conservatives", so you could clear all that up for us with your list.
 
2013-03-20 08:45:29 AM

muck4doo: Okay, This is what you Republican trolls will never get. You hate the lesser peoples. Democrats take care of lesser peoples.


Whiny Republican tears are the best kind of tears muck.
 
2013-03-20 08:46:32 AM

Dr.Zom: Yogimus: You know what makes me weep? How everyone OTHER than those two get a complete pass.

/lookin at you congress

We'll never know what Cheney's Intel Unit was telling those guys behind the scenes. I distinctly remember one congressman saying Cheney's people told him Saddam had drones that could reach the east coast with nerve gas. Total BS, but scary. They wanted war, they got it, and they killed anybody who got in their way.

I've looked for that article since and it's pretty much gone down the memory hole like so much other stuff.

Still, they should have know they were liars. I could tell and I'm nobody.


It's very easy for regular people like us to immediately dismiss or distrust claims like drones with nerve gas, Colin Powell's vial of super poison, and the like.  When you're a member of Congress and senior state department and pentagon officials tell you to your face about these threats, I imagine you take them a bit more seriously.  Some in Congress certainly wanted to believe it (the usual crowd of warmongers and manifest destiny types) but many accepted what they were told because the respected the source of the lie.

Besides, this is just a talking point to pin the blame for the whole mess on Democrats who were lied to.
 
2013-03-20 08:47:00 AM
Obama has done nothing but expand the war and continue to eliminate civil  liberties.  The left showed themselves as the traitors they really are when the "anti-war" that were so vocal during the Bush years haven't been heard from since Obama took office.
 
2013-03-20 08:48:32 AM
www.usnews.com
 
2013-03-20 08:48:43 AM
verbaltoxin:

But you're right. Iraq is better off now. That murdering asshole has been replaced by an America-approved murdering asshole!

But at least we didn't 'cut and run'!!!!
 
2013-03-20 08:48:49 AM

steamingpile: lolpix: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

Or telling you that you have to do your part by paying your fair share.....


Progressive taxation? How does that work?

Still no blame for obama keeping troops over there, this shouldn't surprise me at all coming from fark.

Obama, Karzai accelerating handover of combat operations
 
2013-03-20 08:52:32 AM

lordaction: Obama has done nothing but expand the war and continue to eliminate civil  liberties.  The left showed themselves as the traitors they really are when the "anti-war" that were so vocal during the Bush years haven't been heard from since Obama took office.


The republicans have done something that is not reversible. Something so f*cking wrong and horrible that human beings will NEVER see the end of it.

DO YOU F*CKING GET IT? DO YOU F*CKING UNDESTAND?
 
2013-03-20 08:54:20 AM

UNC_Samurai: The anti-war crowd tried to compare Iraq to Vietnam, as if we were fighting a proxy Cold War brushfire in Iraq with a superpower funneling in military aid (which, it turns out, didn't happen until we occupied the country and Al-Queda took advantage of the chaos we put in place).


Well, we made it another Vietnam.  So, really, anyone who said "this will turn into another Vietnam fiasco" was right.
 
2013-03-20 08:55:38 AM

muck4doo: Give me quotes on what I said.


Sure.

muck4doo: No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.


So who are these actual conservatives we should be looking at?
 
2013-03-20 08:57:12 AM

HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: Give me quotes on what I said.

Sure.

muck4doo: No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.

So who are these actual conservatives we should be looking at?


So quote me. You war mongerer.
 
2013-03-20 08:59:03 AM

sendtodave: UNC_Samurai: The anti-war crowd tried to compare Iraq to Vietnam, as if we were fighting a proxy Cold War brushfire in Iraq with a superpower funneling in military aid (which, it turns out, didn't happen until we occupied the country and Al-Queda took advantage of the chaos we put in place).

Well, we made it another Vietnam.  So, really, anyone who said "this will turn into another Vietnam fiasco" was right.


Antiwar hippies like then-Sen. Chuck Hagel compared it to Vietnam. Why can't he go smoke a doob and join a drum circle someplace else?
 
2013-03-20 08:59:03 AM

muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: Give me quotes on what I said.

Sure.

muck4doo: No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.

So who are these actual conservatives we should be looking at?

So quote me. You war mongerer.


I just did. Now give us some names and quotes from actual conservatives. Or are you just a full of shiat revisionist?
 
2013-03-20 09:01:41 AM
Well, as long as the war of attrition for/against Muck4Doo kills this thread, I guess we can claim it's a success?
 
2013-03-20 09:02:51 AM

HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: Here you are saying stupid shiat. But you are already used to that.

Names of actual conservatives please. Put up or shut up.

I asked you to give me a quote of mine first supporting war, and you never did. Do you really want quotes supporting war mongering from Democrats?

Who are the "actual conservatives" that weren't happy with Bush? Why won't you take this opportunity to infrom us who the "actual conservatives" are? This way we won't need to rely on the fake conservatives that endlessly heaped praise on him.

Who the fark cares?

You're the one that brought these mystery "actual conservatives" up.

You're going to get your talking points from Daily Kos and TPM anyways.

I'm sorry, I don't visit these sites.

You don't give a rats ass what conservatives actually say.

Which conservatives? Do you have any names? Because again, I'm happy to bury you in quotes from conservatives praising Bush for his staunch conservatism. But maybe they aren't "actual conservatives", so you could clear all that up for us with your list.


For what it's worth, Lincoln Chaffee did vote against the Iraq War Resolution.  He was the only Senate Republican to do so.  And for his courage he was almost primaried by a social conservative knuckle-dragger in 2006.  And five House Republicans not named Ron Paul.  Jimmy Duncan can be a social conservative dick on social issues, but he consistently voted against measures supporting and funding the Iraq War.  John Hostettler lost his seat in 2006 to a social conservative Democrat.  Amo Houghton retired after his 2003-2005 term (he was also one of the few House Republicans to vote against Clinton's impeachment).  Jim Leach could have survived the 2006 elections had he not refused to play ball with the anti-way social conservative groups.  Connie Morella lost in the 2002 election because after Maryland's post-2000-Census redistricting, MD-8 was made much more Democratic.

So the only Congressional still left from that sliver of No votes is Jimmy Duncan.
 
2013-03-20 09:03:50 AM

muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: HotWingConspiracy: muck4doo: Give me quotes on what I said.

Sure.

muck4doo: No, we hated how he spent. Why don't you look sometime at what actual conservatives say, and not just what you read every day at TPM.

So who are these actual conservatives we should be looking at?

So quote me. You war mongerer.

I just did. Now give us some names and quotes from actual conservatives. Or are you just a full of shiat revisionist?

No. You didn't.


You said something dumb and can't find a way to unwind it. It's just like your support of Bush.
 
2013-03-20 09:04:36 AM

Mentat: And Dick Cheney will never care.


Dick Cheney will categorize this guy as "one of those people who don't understand" and move on with his "life".

It has never occurred to him there is even a CHANCE he was wrong.
 
2013-03-20 09:06:15 AM

UNC_Samurai: For what it's worth, Lincoln Chaffee did vote against the Iraq War Resolution.  He was the only Senate Republican to do so.  And for his courage he was almost primaried by a social conservative knuckle-dragger in 2006.  And five House Republicans not named Ron Paul.  Jimmy Duncan can be a social conservative dick on social issues, but he consistently voted against measures supporting and funding the Iraq War.  John Hostettler lost his seat in 2006 to a social conservative Democrat.  Amo Houghton retired after his 2003-2005 term (he was also one of the few House Republicans to vote against Clinton's impeachment).  Jim Leach could have survived the 2006 elections had he not refused to play ball with the anti-way social conservative groups.  Connie Morella lost in the 2002 election because after Maryland's post-2000-Census redistricting, MD-8 was made much more Democratic.

So the only Congressional still left from that sliver of No votes is Jimmy Duncan.


War (huh) good God, what is it good for?

Politician's jobs!
 
2013-03-20 09:08:11 AM

duffblue: Corn_Fed: The Iraq War was a  Republican war.

It was a partisan war.


None of the Democrats who got strong-armed into cowardly going along with it actually wanted it.

It was  wanted by Republicans.
It was  desired by Republicans.
It was  designed by Republicans.
It was  promoted by Republicans.
It was implemented by Republicans.

I'm sure somebody held a gun to the 85 Democrats that voted in favor of OIL (operation Iraqi liberation)


or they are in states/districts with either a large number of military bases or defense contractors both of which would see a LOT of income over the next several years... enriching the state budget and the 'political donor class'... both of which would be added as feathers into their hat.
 
2013-03-20 09:08:19 AM

farkingismybusiness: From pain...
[img.gawkerassets.com image 850x478]
Comes art.


I think little Dubya now realizes that he was played like a fiddle by the real powers during his term. It's why he barely talks about his time as president.

He is starting to realize he was a useful fool. For a guy who had been told his whole life that he was special that has GOT to hurt.
 
2013-03-20 09:10:19 AM

sendtodave: UNC_Samurai: The anti-war crowd tried to compare Iraq to Vietnam, as if we were fighting a proxy Cold War brushfire in Iraq with a superpower funneling in military aid (which, it turns out, didn't happen until we occupied the country and Al-Queda took advantage of the chaos we put in place).

Well, we made it another Vietnam.  So, really, anyone who said "this will turn into another Vietnam fiasco" was right.


On the contrary, I think Afghanistan would be a closer comparison.  Depending on when you consider the Vietnam War to have begun (1955, 1961, or 1964-65) the conflict in Afghanistan is our first- or second- longest war in national history.  We're no closer to neutralizing the Taliban as a political-military entity, Al-Queda has migrated to Africa, and the country next door is an ally that we have to constantly watch because we know they're eventually going to stab us in the back.
 
2013-03-20 09:11:40 AM

SpectroBoy: farkingismybusiness: From pain...
[img.gawkerassets.com image 850x478]
Comes art.

I think little Dubya now realizes that he was played like a fiddle by the real powers during his term. It's why he barely talks about his time as president.

He is starting to realize he was a useful fool. For a guy who had been told his whole life that he was special that has GOT to hurt.


"The Decider."

He just happend to decide, with fervent conviction, what others told him he should decide.

Huh.  Reminds me of many Evangelicals, really.
 
2013-03-20 09:14:11 AM
THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST
 
2013-03-20 09:18:55 AM

UNC_Samurai: sendtodave: UNC_Samurai: The anti-war crowd tried to compare Iraq to Vietnam, as if we were fighting a proxy Cold War brushfire in Iraq with a superpower funneling in military aid (which, it turns out, didn't happen until we occupied the country and Al-Queda took advantage of the chaos we put in place).

Well, we made it another Vietnam.  So, really, anyone who said "this will turn into another Vietnam fiasco" was right.

On the contrary, I think Afghanistan would be a closer comparison.  Depending on when you consider the Vietnam War to have begun (1955, 1961, or 1964-65) the conflict in Afghanistan is our first- or second- longest war in national history.  We're no closer to neutralizing the Taliban as a political-military entity, Al-Queda has migrated to Africa, and the country next door is an ally that we have to constantly watch because we know they're eventually going to stab us in the back.


Hm, good point.

Iraq gets many Like Vietnam Points due to the fiasco and false pretenses, but Afganistan might win out solely on the quagmire category.
 
2013-03-20 09:21:55 AM

SpectroBoy: Mentat: And Dick Cheney will never care.

Dick Cheney will categorize this guy as "one of those people who don't understand" and move on with his "life".

It has never occurred to him there is even a CHANCE he was wrong.


Being wrong is for losers.
 
2013-03-20 09:22:01 AM

fusillade762: StoPPeRmobile: fusillade762: StoPPeRmobile: Remember when Sadam complained about Kuwait slant drilling so the the borders were re-drawn?

Saddam even asked permission first (sort of):

Saddam Hussein - If we could keep the whole of the Shatt al Arab - our strategic goal in our war with Iran - we will make concessions (to the Kuwaitis). But, if we are forced to choose between keeping half of the Shatt and the whole of Iraq (i.e., in Saddam s view, including Kuwait ) then we will give up all of the Shatt to defend our claims on Kuwait to keep the whole of Iraq in the shape we wish it to be. (pause) What is the United States' opinion on this?

U.S. Ambassador Glaspie - We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960′s, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America. (Saddam smiles)

Thanks but that's not a scholarly source.

On 25 July 1990, the U.S. Ambassador in Iraq, April Glaspie, asked the Iraqi high command to explain the military preparations in progress, including the massing of Iraqi troops near the border.

The American ambassador declared to her Iraqi interlocutor that Washington, "inspired by the friendship and not by confrontation, does not have an opinion" on the disagreement between Kuwait and Iraq, stating "we have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts."

She also let Saddam Hussein know that the U.S. did not intend "to start an economic war against Iraq". These statements may have caused Saddam to believe he had received a diplomatic green light from the United States to invade Kuwait.[20][21]

That's wikipedia. You can follow the sources yourself.
Seems pretty clear to me we could have avoided Desert Storm if we'd focused more on diplomacy. And been less gullible about "Incubator babies dashed to the floor by mustache-twirling Iraqi soldiers" bullshiat.




Wasn't trying to bash you or even wiki but every source but the NY times and LA times are from one-sided sources that appear to have political or monetary motivation. Plus those newspapers will be dismissed as liberal rags. Actually, I don't even think those newspaper articles are even referenced in wiki.

Sneaky shiat went down, I remember, but that's not good enough.
 
2013-03-20 09:22:28 AM

sendtodave: UNC_Samurai: The anti-war crowd tried to compare Iraq to Vietnam, as if we were fighting a proxy Cold War brushfire in Iraq with a superpower funneling in military aid (which, it turns out, didn't happen until we occupied the country and Al-Queda took advantage of the chaos we put in place).

Well, we made it another Vietnam.  So, really, anyone who said "this will turn into another Vietnam fiasco" was right.


Actually, Iraq didn't turn into another Vietnam for us. In terms of scale, it doesn't even come close. Fiasco, yes; Vietnam, no.

I find it interesting that the American media has chosen to completely ignore what should be a huge story: Lyndon Johnson's recently declassified Oval Office tapes and records prove that Richard M. Nixon committed treason, while a candidate. The BBC wrote a piece on it with links to the records. It seems that Nixon dispatched a campaign aid to enter into secret negotiations with the North Vietnamese government while the 1968 Paris Peace Talks were going on. His message: withdraw from the talks until after the election and he would cut them a better deal. This is prima facie treason. Johnson's team was on the verge of an cease-fire agreement and was positioned to order cessation of the bombing of the North within days. This would have ended the war. Nixon was successful and the peace talks fell apart. Johnson decided that since he had learned of this treason by having the North Vietnamese ambassador's phone bugged, going public would compromise the CIA and NSA. So he remained silent. He did provide Hubert Humphrey with enough information to bury Nixon in the election, but Humphrey thought that the scandal would rock an already pissed-off population and shelved the information. Nixon campaigned on getting us out of that war asap, while he was using back-channels to insure that it would continue. Nixon was elected by less than a 1% margin. Afterward, he broke his promise to North Vietnam and expanded our involvement in SE Asia by going into Laos and Cambodia. The result was the deaths of 23,000 additional American servicemen. Watergate was nothing in comparison to this.
 
2013-03-20 09:25:47 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Say, do you have any actual conservatives I could read up on? You seem pretty smart.


Oh, Christ, give it a rest.  LMGTFY

 Repeatedly demanding that he back up his assertation just kills the thread, making it about him.

https://www.google.com.hk/search?q=anti+iraq+war+conservatives&hl=en& n ewwindow=1&safe=strict&sa=X&ei=HLhJUcDcD8eDkwWnpoDQAQ&ved=0CCAQpwUoBg& source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A2001%2Ccd_max%3A2003&tbm=

There.  Easy.  Enjoy.
 
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