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(The Detroit_News)   Detroit Electric to produce electric cars in Michigan. This is not a repeat from 1907   ( detroitnews.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Detroit Electric, Michigan, Metro Detroit  
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1455 clicks; posted to Business » on 19 Mar 2013 at 12:46 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-19 06:23:02 PM  
The Leaf would fill about 90% of my driving needs, but it's that last 10% (long trips) that's a deal-killer. For now, a gas-powered Honda Fit works well for me. If I had an old-but-reliable and paid-up car already, it might be worth going electric and using the gasser only for the long trips. Then again, by the time my Fit is paid for, gas might be expensive enough to make it worthwhile to use this strategy.

It'd be interesting to track down the source(s) of anti-electric-car whisper campaigns, though. It sure seems like the clueless/shill/troll (pick any or all) crowd comes out of the woodwork whenever an electric car thread rolls around.
 
2013-03-19 06:36:49 PM  

Geotpf: Pure electric cars won't replace gas powered cars any time soon. There are three main problems:

1. The fact that they cost ten thousands dollars or more than an equivalent gas powered car eats up any savings in the cost of using electricity over gasoline, at least in the first 200,000 miles or so. (A Nissan Leaf (the only "mainstream" pure electric car) costs $21,300 even factoring in a $7,500 rebate from the Feds ($28,800 before); a Nissan Versa sedan costs $11,990. Both are about the same size.)

2. You can't go on a road trip with them.

3. You need to have a place to charge them (IE, most apartment dwellers or people with only on-street parking can't buy one; also, if your commute is more than 50% of the range, you need to have a place to charge them at work).


A couple points of note:

1. The comparison to the Nissan Versa isn't half bad, but you should compare the hatch-back Leaf ($21,300) to hatch-back Versa ($14,670) - which would be more fair. Although even at that, you're comparing one model of car with a less equipped version. When you spec out the Versa to match the features of a base Leaf (Bluetooth, auto trans, cruise control), you're looking at $18,590 for the Versa SL. When you throw in the likelihood that the Leaf is often sales tax free, it's pretty much a financial wash between the two vehicles.

2. While it isn't widespread for everyone yet, Level-III fast charge stations are popping up in my area (the Pacific NW) like crazy. In total WA state and Oregon have about 3-dozen 480v public chargers along the highways. There's one about every 40-50 miles along Interstate 5. They're currently putting them East-West along interstate 90 too. In about 20 minutes of charging, I get another 100 miles of range. If you're hardcore, you can do about 800 miles a day in a Leaf.

3. Agreed - they aren't for everyone. Although, if you're like me and can charge from work, as long as you have a round-trip commute of less than 60 miles, it wouldn't be a problem live in an apartment, park on the street and charge at work.
 
2013-03-19 06:53:06 PM  
Heh, strike that, there are now 62 public fast-charging stations along the highways in in Oregon and Washington. http://www.plugshare.com/ 

Considering there were zero at the beginning of 2012 - that's not half bad.
 
2013-03-19 07:50:29 PM  
Came for the Koch Bros funded derp, leaving happy.
 
2013-03-19 09:14:28 PM  

skozlaw: dittybopper: TIKIMAN87 is more right than he is wrong.

He's not. It's already been covered. I even posted links to numerical breakdowns.

He's lying and so are you.


Are you seriously saying that my math is wrong?

Hint:  I looked up all the numbers I used before I posted.  Electricity costs about 0.20 kWh in my state.  Volt has a 16 kWh battery, but it only allows you do pull it down by 10 and change before the generator kicks in.

Leaf has a 24 kWh battery.

Coal, Natural Gas, and Nuclear account for 87% of the electrical generation in the US.

You must be one of those math deniers I keep hearing about.
 
2013-03-19 09:45:06 PM  

dittybopper: Are you seriously saying that my math is wrong?

Hint: I looked up all the numbers I used before I posted. Electricity costs about 0.20 kWh in my state. Volt has a 16 kWh battery, but it only allows you do pull it down by 10 and change before the generator kicks in.

Leaf has a 24 kWh battery.

Coal, Natural Gas, and Nuclear account for 87% of the electrical generation in the US.

You must be one of those math deniers I keep hearing about.


Oooh, math fight! The original claim from TIKIMAN87 is that it costs $3-4 to charge the Volt. You say "TIKIMAN87 is more right than he is wrong."

As you correctly state, it only takes 10 kWh to charge the Volt, and your State's high energy rates are $0.20 a kWh. That works out to be $2 to charge the Volt. That means for you, TIKIMAN87 was off by *just* 33%-50% in his numbers (which is frankly, not a trivial amount) As others have pointed out, in most of the rest of the country electric rates are quite a bit cheaper, at about $0.12 a kWh, making the average cost to charge a Volt closer to the $1.25 range.

So, comparing the average American's cost to charge a Volt to the original TIKIMAN87claim (that you seem to try to bolster) is a number that is inflating the cost by 2x-3x's the actual value. If you want to get extremely pedantic, even if you lowball the TIKIMAN87 numbers, *your* actual cost is a $1 less. However your difference from the average American is closer, at $0.80 - simply making TIKIMAN87 more wrong than right - even in your situation of high energy bills. For the average American, he's totally wrong.

In conclusion, TIKIMAN87 is outright ignorant at basic math and you're trying to save face by throwing out other correct facts, yet you're still off financially ~33%-50% away from the original TIKI claim.
 
2013-03-19 09:57:35 PM  

MrSteve007: dittybopper: Are you seriously saying that my math is wrong?

Hint: I looked up all the numbers I used before I posted. Electricity costs about 0.20 kWh in my state. Volt has a 16 kWh battery, but it only allows you do pull it down by 10 and change before the generator kicks in.

Leaf has a 24 kWh battery.

Coal, Natural Gas, and Nuclear account for 87% of the electrical generation in the US.

You must be one of those math deniers I keep hearing about.

Oooh, math fight! The original claim from TIKIMAN87 is that it costs $3-4 to charge the Volt. You say "TIKIMAN87 is more right than he is wrong."

As you correctly state, it only takes 10 kWh to charge the Volt, and your State's high energy rates are $0.20 a kWh. That works out to be $2 to charge the Volt. That means for you, TIKIMAN87 was off by *just* 33%-50% in his numbers (which is frankly, not a trivial amount) As others have pointed out, in most of the rest of the country electric rates are quite a bit cheaper, at about $0.12 a kWh, making the average cost to charge a Volt closer to the $1.25 range.

So, comparing the average American's cost to charge a Volt to the original TIKIMAN87claim (that you seem to try to bolster) is a number that is inflating the cost by 2x-3x's the actual value. If you want to get extremely pedantic, even if you lowball the TIKIMAN87 numbers, *your* actual cost is a $1 less. However your difference from the average American is closer, at $0.80 - simply making TIKIMAN87 more wrong than right - even in your situation of high energy bills. For the average American, he's totally wrong.

In conclusion, TIKIMAN87 is outright ignorant at basic math and you're trying to save face by throwing out other correct facts, yet you're still off financially ~33%-50% away from the original TIKI claim.


"33-50% off"

Heh I'll take it!

Beats what Pelosi said Obamacare would cost by a shiat load.
 
2013-03-19 10:14:53 PM  

TIKIMAN87: jjwars1: TIKIMAN87: 

You must be one of the most unsuccessful trolls on Fark.

Lol I'm amazed how fast liberals in this thread went full retard.


We have to so you can understand us.
 
2013-03-19 10:18:24 PM  
Detroit still has electricity?
 
2013-03-19 10:50:35 PM  
"Details of the car, aside from having two seats, have not been disclosed".

SPOILER ALERT!
The car is also going to have four wheels & tires.
 
2013-03-19 11:49:23 PM  
Most cars are about more than crunching numbers.  Some are about utility, some conformity,some driving dynamics, some pure sex appeal.

This will be a Lotus Exige with a battery pack. Play with your calculator all day, you're ignoring the sex appeal here. It's gorgeous, unusual, sporty.  For someone with about $50K to spend and wanting a two-seater sports car, this is an attractive choice.

On a much cheaper end of the market, electric motorcycles have the same potential to sell well. Get it under 500 lbs, under $14K in cost, at least 80 miles of range, and you have an attractive sale for young male professionals. Great performance, green cred, cheap to insure, easy to park.  You might even find a way to make the battery packs modular and removable, so you could carry in one or more 30 lb battery packs to your apartment to plug them in to charge.

Electric vehicles will start by filling niches. That will get the charging infrastructure going.  As they become useful for what people do 90% of the time, many will realize it's cheaper to rent something for that twice-a-year road trip or ski trip.
 
2013-03-20 01:42:57 AM  

MisterRonbo: On a much cheaper end of the market, electric motorcycles have the same potential to sell well. Get it under 500 lbs, under $14K in cost, at least 80 miles of range, and you have an attractive sale for young male professionals.


A guy I know showed up at the last EV meeting with his new Brammo Empulse R.  That's one good looking machine.  It is also very close to your three criteria:

Weight under 500 lbs: Check (470 pounds)
80 miles of range: Check (mostly...77 miles range when half of the driving is on the freeway.  Range can be as high as 125 miles)
Price under 14K: Not quite.  Empulse is 17K, Empulse R (with upgraded racing suspension) is 19K.
 
2013-03-20 09:04:04 AM  

TIKIMAN87: Just remember liberals...


It costs $3-4 to charge a Volt each day.. and all that electricity comes from either coal, Natural gas, or nucler.

So enjoy your clean car! ROFL.


As someone who absolutely isn't a liberal -- running a car on electricity produced from natural gas or nuclear energy at a central location is much cleaner than running a car on gasoline produced when the vehicle is running.

Also, I spend vastly more than $3-4 a day on gasoline.
 
2013-03-20 09:06:50 AM  

meanmutton: TIKIMAN87: Just remember liberals...


It costs $3-4 to charge a Volt each day.. and all that electricity comes from either coal, Natural gas, or nucler.

So enjoy your clean car! ROFL.

As someone who absolutely isn't a liberal -- running a car on electricity produced from natural gas or nuclear energy at a central location is much cleaner than running a car on gasoline produced when the vehicle is running.

Also, I spend vastly more than $3-4 a day on gasoline.


Many people do.. but after the 3-4$ in electricity is used up you get to use gas!

Oh and natural gas isn't clean.
 
2013-03-20 09:15:28 AM  

Hollie Maea: StopLurkListen: MrSteve007: I'm sure if I cranked the heat, packed in 5 people, and drove 90 mph over a mountain pass in the winter, that range would go down - but with a typical 35 mile (each way) commute, it works perfectly.

But you can't do all that plus tow a 6,000 lb boat on a trailer, therefore no one could ever want one ever. Thread over, we all have to buy Ford Excursions, which is what God meant for us to drive, or He wouldn't have given us two hands - one to steer, one to hold the coffee, and one to send texts on the cell phone.

A week or so ago, I spent a whole day arguing with some people who essentially were saying that Electric Vehicles could "never become mainstream" until they would work for the guy who drives across the country wearing a catheter so he doesn't have to stop for piss breaks.


I don't think they will ever become mainstream until they would work for the guy who drives across town all day running errands, taking kids to school, going to work, picking up dinner, running out to the store, etc.  I sometimes have trouble remembering to plug my cell phone in when I go to bed; not plugging in my car?

They'll become mainstream when the following things occur:

1) You get a guaranteed day's worth of driving out of them
2) There's a way to rapidly charge them at stations distributed throughout the country
3) The cost-benefit is there in a reasonable timeframe (three or four years, max)

Don't get me wrong, even as someone who drives a good 100 miles a day in a typical workday, I desperately want one.  I don't see pure electric being right for me any time soon but I'd love a Chevy Volt or Ford C-MAX Energi if the money made sense.
 
2013-03-20 08:46:13 PM  

kg2095: TIKIMAN87: Barricaded Gunman: TIKIMAN87: Just remember liberals...   It costs $3-4 to charge a Volt each day.. and all that electricity comes from either coal, Natural gas, or nucler. So enjoy your clean car! ROFL.

So wallowing in your own feces like a monster-truck driving retard is preferable to working toward a solution? Thanks for chiming in, Einstein. I'm sure we're all looking forward to your next insight.

Not to mention it takes more energy to manufacture hybrid batteries than energy that an F-150 uses over 10 years.

Can you back that up with a reputable cite?


Of course he can't. Like everything else he has said in this thread, it is a lie.
 
2013-03-20 08:57:40 PM  

dittybopper: Are you seriously saying that my math is wrong?


I'm not going to play this silly game with you. Even assuming you're telling the truth about paying $0.20 per KWh, that puts you well above the national average:

bls.govView Full Size


In fact, it puts you well above the average of 49 states.

And with an outrageous starting assumption you still only managed to account for, at best, 2/3 of TIKIMAN's bullshiat cost estimate.

I don't know about you, but when I'm off by 40%-50% on a cost estimate, people don't generally pat me on the back and say it's okay, I was "more right than wrong".
 
2013-03-20 09:29:28 PM  

Hollie Maea: kg2095: TIKIMAN87: Barricaded Gunman: TIKIMAN87: Just remember liberals...   It costs $3-4 to charge a Volt each day.. and all that electricity comes from either coal, Natural gas, or nucler. So enjoy your clean car! ROFL.

So wallowing in your own feces like a monster-truck driving retard is preferable to working toward a solution? Thanks for chiming in, Einstein. I'm sure we're all looking forward to your next insight.

Not to mention it takes more energy to manufacture hybrid batteries than energy that an F-150 uses over 10 years.

Can you back that up with a reputable cite?

Of course he can't. Like everything else he has said in this thread, it is a lie.


I already have proved it. Sucka.
 
2013-03-20 10:37:04 PM  

kg2095: TIKIMAN87: Hollie Maea: kg2095: TIKIMAN87: Barricaded Gunman: TIKIMAN87: Just remember liberals...   It costs $3-4 to charge a Volt each day.. and all that electricity comes from either coal, Natural gas, or nucler. So enjoy your clean car! ROFL.

So wallowing in your own feces like a monster-truck driving retard is preferable to working toward a solution? Thanks for chiming in, Einstein. I'm sure we're all looking forward to your next insight.

Not to mention it takes more energy to manufacture hybrid batteries than energy that an F-150 uses over 10 years.

Can you back that up with a reputable cite?

Of course he can't. Like everything else he has said in this thread, it is a lie.

I already have proved it. Sucka.

Well you certainly proved something anyway.


Thanks
 
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