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(Talking Points Memo)   National Review slams RNC autopsy for failing to identify "the source of the GOP's recent electoral woes"   (livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 62
    More: Amusing, National Review, RNC, GOP  
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3271 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 Mar 2013 at 10:44 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-03-19 10:56:56 AM  
12 votes:
The GOP isn't trying to figure out what went wrong with regards to their communication techniques or fine-tuning their message. Its not about figuring out social media or getting a better ground game. Its all about being able to better fool the voters into voting against their self-interests. Lets see, how can we call the blacks "freeloading n*&&ers" to increase our percentage of the white vote, while simultaneously appealing to the African-American bigots who hate gays? How can we simultaneously let the Hispanics know that they're all dirty illegal Mexicans to us, but they should vote for us because a lot of them are Catholic? How can we call a gay person a f*ggot who is leading the country down the path of moral decline while we tell people how inclusive we are? How can we call everyone who doesn't make $500k/yr a "taker" without getting caught on tape? How can we get the middle class to view the poor as the source of all their problems?
2013-03-19 09:13:02 AM  
12 votes:

dr_blasto: Weaver95: look - the GOP isn't stupid.

Yes, they are.


no, they're not.  they are delusional, they are obstinate and they are arrogant.  But they aren't stupid.  think of the Republicans as being more the victims of a mental illness than being stupid.  they are driven by a set of goals that conflicts with the reality around them...but their mythology and shared delusions are internally consistent (for the most part).  the mental illness bit comes in when they choose to ignore inconvenient facts in favor of their echo chamber delusions.  if they were simply stupid we would be able to lie and trick them very easily.  As it stands, Obama and the Democrats aren't winning against the Republicans because they've out-thought the GOP...they're winning because the GOP's ideology is so extreme, so insane that the rest of the country wants nothing to do with it.  And because the Republican party is so insane, they simply are not capable of changing their approach.  that option simply does not exist for the Republican party.  they KNOW that they're losing.  they KNOW that their too extreme.  But they can't change their ideology any more than someone who's OCD could stop touching a door handle three times before opening it.  they know it's wrong, they KNOW it...but they can't help themselves.
2013-03-19 08:55:01 AM  
11 votes:
look - the GOP isn't stupid.  they KNOW why they lost.  But they cannot actually admit to those reasons in public...not without setting off another civil war within the ranks.  they're trapped in a cage of their own making.  the evangelicals won't let them slide on moral issues, the corporate elite won't let them slide one penny on fiscal issues, and years of training their rank and file to believe that ANY compromise is a sign of weakness prevents them from brokering even an internal peace accord, let alone finding some way to make a deal with the Democrats.

the GOP is locked into it's current course.  I have no idea how they're going to get outta this one.
2013-03-19 08:22:37 AM  
8 votes:
considering that Hispanics are often ideologically liberal for reasons beyond immigration.

And by "ideologically liberal" they mean staunchly anti-abortion conservative Catholics, who might vote conservative if Republicans didn't make it so plain that they hate them.
2013-03-19 09:05:45 AM  
6 votes:

Weaver95: look - the GOP isn't stupid.


Yes, they are.
2013-03-19 10:16:53 AM  
5 votes:
Here's your problem, GOP... The vast majority of your base identifies with, and worships this:

cdn02.cdnwp.thefrisky.com
2013-03-19 11:32:23 AM  
4 votes:
i.imgur.com


Belongs in all these threads
2013-03-19 10:52:40 AM  
4 votes:

Weaver95: look - the GOP isn't stupid.  they KNOW why they lost.  But they cannot actually admit to those reasons in public...not without setting off another civil war within the ranks.  they're trapped in a cage of their own making.  the evangelicals won't let them slide on moral issues, the corporate elite won't let them slide one penny on fiscal issues, and years of training their rank and file to believe that ANY compromise is a sign of weakness prevents them from brokering even an internal peace accord, let alone finding some way to make a deal with the Democrats.

the GOP is locked into it's current course.  I have no idea how they're going to get outta this one.


Not without ejecting the Religious Right and the Idiot Brigade, and they aren't done milking those idiots for all the cash that they can. Those folks can still deliver smaller seats, and help districting issues, but it is a losing proposition in the Senate and for the White House.

You can't bank on anger to keep you going. Anger is not a bad thing to take advantage of for the short term, but in order to bank on it, you need folks who are just filled with bile and rage, and those folks...they don't play so well to Middle America. The folksy-homey act helps defeat some of the revulsion, but banking on stupid is likewise not a winning strategy in the long run. And that is what folks are trying to hook their dreams on. Rage and bile. And a lot of folks are tired of it, because it takes a LOT of energy to be that pissed off all the time. Glenn Beck couldn't manage to keep it together on TV. Even Phelps has to step out of the limelight or he gets frothy to the point of incoherency. Rush...he embodies that ethos, and he is consigned to radio, because it just ain't healthy. Even the "front runners" in the last straw poll, are making their conciliatory efforts to rein in those tendencies.  Of course, when you bank on milquetoasts who then switch on the Pretty Little Hate Machine, you get such a dichotomy that they appear unhinged, like Bachmann or Palin.

At some point, the party is either going to have eject the Idiot Brigade, or accept that they won't have the White House for a long while, and the Senate will slip away as well, leaving them a regional party, with Governors who are going to have to work like Hells to get elected with a decreasing base, especially in the face of hardship of economic policies that put a squeeze on most of the folks in their electorate. It can't continue, and at some point, folks are going to either have to come to grips with these facts, and dump blind ideology, and get back to reasoned policies.
2013-03-19 09:49:11 AM  
4 votes:

dr_blasto: Stupid just seems to cover most of it the easiest.


I guess what i'm trying to say is - don't underestimate the Republicans.  if they ever get their shiat together, they can make life extremely difficult for the rest of us.  don't assume they're all dumb inbred tea baggers.  understand their psychology and you can use it against them.  one of the most glaring weaknesses of the Republican party is they can't (or won't) bother to understand YOUR motivations or psychology.  that lets you blind side them rather easily.  to most Republican True Believers, if you aren't with them, then you are The Enemy.  you're a 'librul' and 'libruls' are all alike.  the Republicans cannot conceive of a 'librul' protecting the second amendment or being a hunter.  they assume 'libruls' hate all businesses without cause or exception.  they assume corporations will always act in the best interests of this nation and that the GOP leadership is honorable.  And the GOP assumes that deep down everyone in the country is really a conservative christian with values just like themselves.

use those blind spots.  don't try to slug it out with the GOP on ideology, because you can't win that fight.  instead, encourage the GOP to dig in their heels and stick to their ideology even more than they would otherwise.
2013-03-19 11:50:55 AM  
3 votes:

Weaver95: look - the GOP isn't stupid.  they KNOW why they lost.  But they cannot actually admit to those reasons in public...not without setting off another civil war within the ranks.  they're trapped in a cage of their own making.  the evangelicals won't let them slide on moral issues, the corporate elite won't let them slide one penny on fiscal issues, and years of training their rank and file to believe that ANY compromise is a sign of weakness prevents them from brokering even an internal peace accord, let alone finding some way to make a deal with the Democrats.

the GOP is locked into it's current course.  I have no idea how they're going to get outta this one.



i78.photobucket.com

TEA-rell: The facts of life... to make a radical alteration in the evolvement of an American political party is fatal. A coding sequence cannot be revised once it's been established.
GOP Batty: Why not?
TEA-rell: Because by the second mid-term of incubation, any cells that have undergone TEA Party/Nativist reversion mutation give rise to revertant colonies, like rats leaving a sinking ship; then the ship... sinks.
GOP Batty: What about EMS-3 Moderate recombination?
TEA-rell: We've already tried it - Huntsman, Collins, Snowe, Lugar, Christie......; it created a virus so lethal the subject was dead before it even left the table.
GOP Batty: Then a RINO repressor protein that would block the operating cells.
TEA-rell: Wouldn't obstruct replication; but it does give rise to an error in replication, so that the newly formed DNA strand carries with it a TEA Party mutation - and you've got a virus again... but this, all of this is academic. You were made as well as we could make you.
GOP Batty: But not to last.
TEA-rell: The light that burns twice as bright burns for half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly, GOP. Look at you: you're the Prodigal Son; you're quite a prize!
GOP Batty: I've done... questionable things for votes.
TEA-rell: Also extraordinary things; revel in your time.
GOP Batty: Nothing the God of Politics wouldn't let you into heaven for.
2013-03-19 11:36:23 AM  
3 votes:
I read the report.  I found it funny that it spends a lot of time into improving messaging to woman, minorities and young people.  Completely glossing over the fact that its the GOP policies that women, minorities and young people hate and not the fact the GOP is not doing proper outreach to those groups of people.
2013-03-19 11:02:37 AM  
3 votes:

Mentat: St_Francis_P: considering that Hispanics are often ideologically liberal for reasons beyond immigration.

And by "ideologically liberal" they mean staunchly anti-abortion conservative Catholics, who might vote conservative if Republicans didn't make it so plain that they hate them.

Or not.


Yes. I don't know any "Latinos". I know salvadorans and mexicans and cubans and peruvians (my father)

And while many hold what would be called "conservative" values about sex and abortion, that doesn't necessarily translate into republican political values about tax cuts, cutting education and social welfare services, and basically dicking over the poor. All over Latin America you can see leftist ideologies being much stronger than here. My father doesn't care for the gays or even other minorities but he does believe that publicly funded education is sacrosanct and key to social mobility. One party seems hellbent on destroying this and the social safety net to benefit richer people and "Latinos" aren't dumb enough to ignore it.
2013-03-19 10:01:41 AM  
3 votes:

dr_blasto: We know their trickle-down bullshiat doesn't work,


WTF are you talking about. It works perfectly. Are the rich not getting richer?
2013-03-19 09:38:59 AM  
3 votes:
I honestly don't know how the GOP is gonna get outta this one.  I'm not even sure they CAN get out of this mess.  they sure as hell won't accept outside help - not that anyone outside the Republican cult is willing to help them in the first place.  so it's entirely up to the Republican elites to fix their internal issues...but there's a problem with that fact as well: right now there IS no clear leader of the Republican party.  there's a cluster of rich and powerful elites.  there are powerful factions who work both behind the scenes and are visible front row center.  But there isn't one clear and well defined leader of the Republican party.  nor CAN there be a clear and powerful leader...because anyone who tries to step forward and lead the GOP gets sabotaged and back stabbed by either their nominal allies (for reasons of ego) AND jumped on by every OTHER faction within the GOP who are afraid that a strong leader would dial back their respective faction goals.

I think the most damaging aspect for the GOP's internal politics is that the evangelicals and the pro-corporate factions are roughly equal in power.  that's prevented the Republicans from being able to nominate one clear leader whom they could all rally around.  and the tea party is so insane and so annoying that they can't serve as a neutral party or moderating factor during negotiations.

it's possible the GOP could just well...'freeze in place' for a while.  they become so preoccupied with their own internal issues that they tune out the rest of the world almost completely.  at that point, the Democrats could easily elect almost anyone to office with little or no effective opposition.
2013-03-19 12:40:23 PM  
2 votes:
manimal2878:

I'm not saying I'm going to vote republican because of the gun thing, I find republicans to largely be disgusting and vile.  But I'm not going to vote for anyone that supports weapon bans either.

And that's how the GOP manages to get you to vote against your own self interests....
2013-03-19 11:53:22 AM  
2 votes:

Foundling: . (both parties) If somebody is not working, they need to show up at some government building prior to 8am. They will be training for a new job till noon. They will get a light lunch at noon. They will be pushing resumes and calling potential employers till 5pm.


Because history has proven there's nothing more effective than cold-calling.
2013-03-19 10:50:32 AM  
2 votes:
"the source of the GOP's recent electoral woes"

news.sciencemag.org
2013-03-19 10:08:57 AM  
2 votes:

Lumpmoose: Both sides cheat, but Republicans are much better at it.  Through redistricting, Republicans will probably keep the House through 2020, making real change nearly impossible.  And the only way it can get better by 2022 is if Democrats can tame the GOP's huge state government advantage by the 2020 state legislature elections before the next redistricting.


I'm not so sure the GOP's hold at the state level is going to last as long as the Republicans seem to think it will.  if the GOP ideology continues on it's path towards ever more extreme views, their losses at the ballot box will only accelerate.
2013-03-19 10:08:53 AM  
2 votes:
Weaver95: one of the most glaring weaknesses of the Republican party is they can't (or won't) bother to understand YOUR motivations or psychology.

We have a winner, folks.

It's interesting to note that all of these GOP-produced reports about why they lost the last election cycle contain entirely internal research, i.e. voices and opinions from within the party. Not even once have we seen an effort by the GOP to look for answers outside the party. It seems to me that the sensible thing to do when a party loses an election would be for researchers from the losing party to speak with voters who did not vote for their party and ask those people why they chose to vote the way they did, specifically why they did not vote for them and why they chose some other candidate instead. There's been a little bit of talk about "outreach" from the more progressive voices in the party, but that's mostly about immigration issues so they can try to win over more Hispanic voters. Why has there been no discussion of reaching out to voters who voted against them so they can find out why those voters voted against them?

Seriously, we've seen all this shiat about how the GOP lost voters because the candidate they put forward didn't toe the line carefully enough on conservative values. There are people on the inside who think that they lost because they weren't conservative enough. Now, tell me, is it likely that there are any voters (let alone the couple of million that would have been needed to sway the results) who voted for Obama because the GOP isn't conservative enough? What a crock of shiat.
2013-03-19 09:34:47 AM  
2 votes:

Weaver95: dr_blasto: Weaver95: look - the GOP isn't stupid.

Yes, they are.

no, they're not.  they are delusional, they are obstinate and they are arrogant.  But they aren't stupid.  think of the Republicans as being more the victims of a mental illness than being stupid.  they are driven by a set of goals that conflicts with the reality around them...but their mythology and shared delusions are internally consistent (for the most part).  the mental illness bit comes in when they choose to ignore inconvenient facts in favor of their echo chamber delusions.  if they were simply stupid we would be able to lie and trick them very easily.  As it stands, Obama and the Democrats aren't winning against the Republicans because they've out-thought the GOP...they're winning because the GOP's ideology is so extreme, so insane that the rest of the country wants nothing to do with it.  And because the Republican party is so insane, they simply are not capable of changing their approach.  that option simply does not exist for the Republican party.  they KNOW that they're losing.  they KNOW that their too extreme.  But they can't change their ideology any more than someone who's OCD could stop touching a door handle three times before opening it.  they know it's wrong, they KNOW it...but they can't help themselves.


At what point does all the delusional, arrogant and obstinate become stupid? The Republican Party has been advocating non-functional policies for DECADES. We know their trickle-down bullshiat doesn't work, we know they are farking horrible on personal freedom issues. We know they no longer even offer practical policy in any arena. If they don't know this, they are stupid-plain and simple. Either their supporters are stupid or the leadership is stupid or both.

If they know these things yet continue to make them core planks of their platform, they are what? Trolls? Suicidal? Is the party made up of stupid not-so-rich people and greedy-yet-smart rich people? What of the women and blacks that are card-carrying Republicans? What are they?

Stupid just seems to cover most of it the easiest.
2013-03-19 08:41:32 AM  
2 votes:

St_Francis_P: considering that Hispanics are often ideologically liberal for reasons beyond immigration.

And by "ideologically liberal" they mean staunchly anti-abortion conservative Catholics, who might vote conservative if Republicans didn't make it so plain that they hate them.


You're assuming that they actually think their cunning criticisms through all the way though
2013-03-19 07:26:17 PM  
1 votes:

manimal2878: Philip Francis Queeg: manimal2878: Philip Francis Queeg: But your deep concern about something you neither know or care about is noted.

I never said I was deeply concerned champ.  You asked a question and I answered it.

Yes, you keep posting repeatedly to defend the position that you not only know or care nothing about, but one for which you are completely unconcerned.

No, I have been perfectly clear, except you and those like you, were so busy stroking your cocks off to each other that when somebody said something that was sligtly out of line with the circle jerk that was going on you didn't read what I actually said and instead started arguing with what you thought I said.


"Circle jerk"?  (sigh...)  you people are so unoriginal.  Can't you come up with a better insult than that?  I mean, it's become an actual boilerplate on Reddit to whine about anything other than a Fox link being a liberal Circle Jerk, and I was really hoping that it wouldn't infest Fark.
2013-03-19 06:05:30 PM  
1 votes:

manimal2878: Philip Francis Queeg: That's a considerable qualification on your earlier statement.

And in the General? would you still refuse to vote for any Democrat based solely on a disagreement on gun control?

And yours is an impossible hypothetical.  Palin will never be the choice vs any democrat in a general.

If it was somebody like her vs a gun ban democrat.  I would hope there would be an independent like Charlie Christ and would vote that way if I didn't want to vote democrat and I wouldn't feel bad about it.


Charlie Christ supports an assault weapons ban. You have now vowed to never vote for him no matter how many other issues you agree with him on.
2013-03-19 05:53:21 PM  
1 votes:

manimal2878: Philip Francis Queeg: manimal2878: Philip Francis Queeg: s that a more accurate summation of your position?

No.

How was that any different than your statement:

But I'm not going to vote for anyone that supports weapon bans either.


I would do the same as you:  Philip Francis Queeg: My votes in the primaries will probably be significantly different.


That's a considerable qualification on your earlier statement.

And in the General? would you still refuse to vote for any Democrat based solely on a disagreement on gun control?
2013-03-19 05:44:19 PM  
1 votes:

manimal2878: Philip Francis Queeg: s that a more accurate summation of your position?

No.


How was that any different than your statement:

But I'm not going to vote for anyone that supports weapon bans either.
2013-03-19 05:32:08 PM  
1 votes:

manimal2878: Philip Francis Queeg: manimal2878: Philip Francis Queeg: If the Democrats make an issue of gun violence and propose some gun control measures will you stop voting for them? Will you vote for Republicans strictly because of their complete rejection of any and all gun control measures?

I've already answered that.

So let's be clear, you would vote for Sarah Palin if she ran against a Democrat who supported gun control based solely on that issue?

If read my answers from before you would know your question is absurd.


You would just chose not to vote for a Democrat who you agreed with on every other issue than guns even if they were running against Sarah Palin. Is that a more accurate summation of your position?
2013-03-19 05:21:31 PM  
1 votes:

dr_blasto: Weaver95: dr_blasto: Weaver95: look - the GOP isn't stupid.

Yes, they are.

no, they're not.  they are delusional, they are obstinate and they are arrogant.  But they aren't stupid.  think of the Republicans as being more the victims of a mental illness than being stupid.  they are driven by a set of goals that conflicts with the reality around them...but their mythology and shared delusions are internally consistent (for the most part).  the mental illness bit comes in when they choose to ignore inconvenient facts in favor of their echo chamber delusions.  if they were simply stupid we would be able to lie and trick them very easily.  As it stands, Obama and the Democrats aren't winning against the Republicans because they've out-thought the GOP...they're winning because the GOP's ideology is so extreme, so insane that the rest of the country wants nothing to do with it.  And because the Republican party is so insane, they simply are not capable of changing their approach.  that option simply does not exist for the Republican party.  they KNOW that they're losing.  they KNOW that their too extreme.  But they can't change their ideology any more than someone who's OCD could stop touching a door handle three times before opening it.  they know it's wrong, they KNOW it...but they can't help themselves.

At what point does all the delusional, arrogant and obstinate become stupid? The Republican Party has been advocating non-functional policies for DECADES. We know their trickle-down bullshiat doesn't work, we know they are farking horrible on personal freedom issues. We know they no longer even offer practical policy in any arena. If they don't know this, they are stupid-plain and simple. Either their supporters are stupid or the leadership is stupid or both.

If they know these things yet continue to make them core planks of their platform, they are what? Trolls? Suicidal? Is the party made up of stupid not-so-rich people and greedy-yet-smart rich people? What of the ...


I'm guessing Weav is claiming that the GOP knows trickle-down is wrong, that family planning is a money saving thing for society and the government, that a progressive tax structure is not only more fair, but will actually generate more income for everyone, including the upper 1%. But they can't because they chose the path of righteousness, so they can't show compromise or wavering. Then, when the 1%'ers came and asked for tax cuts using the ruse of trickle-down, they agreed because the short-term pay-off of cash for campaigning was worth it. Same goes with the theocracy side of the equation. The GOP accepted the fundamentalists because they provided a large number of voters. Now, they have to maintain harping about the legitimacy of rape and whether they believe in evolution. They can't change, even if they (well, some of them) know better.

The crux of the matter is that the GOP runs on a top-down totalitarian structure. They demand and require obedience. They don't have the numbers, so they only way they can win is through general ennui and them coming out in force during that moment to capture seats (see 2010 election). They create ennui through confusing the public. Soon after Obama's election, somehow or another the whole economic collapse of 2009 was burdened onto Obama as if it was "Obama's depression". The Iraq war became "Obama's Iraq War" and so on. They create confusion to make people think twice about voting. And when people have to think twice, they decide to forego the voting altogether. At that moment, they get the rallying cry to get people there. In 2010, they used the "Tea Party" tactic because it was clear at that time the "GOP" brand was totally trashed by GW Bush. They created a new astroturfed party, the Tea Party, which, in policy, is identical or more right than the GOP. That alone added a significant number of people into the cause.

But the root of all, again, is their inability to compromise. Their very raison d'etre is to be firm and solid. The mighty oak tree. Well, the negative is that if you pick the wrong position and you can't compromise yourself out of it, you're doomed. And doom is what we're seeing with the GOP.
2013-03-19 05:14:09 PM  
1 votes:

HotWingConspiracy: So yeah, is there any doubt left that the GOP is going to experience a schism and we'll have a hard right third party running against them?


I'd LIKE there to be a schism. I've always felt that the TEA party would be happier as its own party than as a barnacle on the ass of the Republicans. The trouble is, the Republican party is too afraid of losing what few voters it has to take a chance on changing the message and attracting more voters.

Let's pretend that the hard-right Republican voter is a loud, obnoxious, gun-waving bigot with a Confederate flag plastered just above his truck nuts. The establishment Republican thinks to itself, "Well, he's a complete idiot, but at least he's voting for me." Unfortunately, by associating himself with Yosemite Sam, he's costing voters from the other side. Scraping off this one lunatic might reward him with ten votes from the center, but since it isn't guaranteed, the Republican can't take that chance. He ALREADY doesn't have enough support on a national level. All the Republican can see is "The number of votes I got minus that guy," rather than "The number of votes I got minus that guy, plus the votes I get for no longer associating with that guy."

For Republican math, a schism means "We only got 47% of the vote in the last election; now you want us to get 23.5%? How does that win elections?"

We'll know what they've decided in 2016 - if the frontrunning candidate spends the entire primary swimming in derp, then staggers back to the center with all that baggage for the general, we'll know they haven't learned a damned thing. If the frontrunner in the primary targets the center, we'll know they're done with the TEA party.
2013-03-19 03:09:21 PM  
1 votes:

manimal2878: Philip Francis Queeg: manimal2878: Philip Francis Queeg: Do you think it's possible that you are over estimating the importance of the gun issue to the voters, in light of the fact that most of the proposals poll favorably with the public?

Depends on the proposals that make it through how important the gun issue will be.  It could end up not mattering at all.

What proposals do you think will make the public rise up en masse to vote Republican?

Don't know, don't care, en masse changes are not even relevant.   It would only come into play in a swing state where small numbers would matter.


There are no swing states in Congressional elections. But your deep concern about something you neither know or care about is noted.
2013-03-19 02:30:38 PM  
1 votes:
Most of America is farther left than the  Democrats. That's a huge chunk of the problem.

/Get. Rid. Of. The. Two. Party. System.
2013-03-19 02:18:52 PM  
1 votes:

manimal2878: Kittypie070: yeah manimal thanks for threadjacking

/schwantz


hurr durr


No U.
2013-03-19 01:53:52 PM  
1 votes:

manimal2878: But their are tons and tons of liberal gun owners, that aren't going to vote for a democrat that pushes for mag restrictions or weapon bans.


Most gun owners aren't single-issue voters.
2013-03-19 01:51:36 PM  
1 votes:
Some kid committed suicide yesterday at the college I graduated from. Mom called, said something about "Obamacare is even infecting colleges now"

... I took a few seconds to try to figure out how they could possibly correlate, then I realized who/what I was dealing with and got her off the phone so I could spark up my nicely rolled joint and not give a fark.
2013-03-19 01:44:26 PM  
1 votes:

manimal2878: verbaltoxin: Maybe you should understand that.

What the fark?  Can none of you read?  I do understand that, I have said so several times.

Stop assuming what I believe you farkholes.


Perhaps if everyone is misunderstanding you it isn't their failure to understand but yours to communicate.

At this point I don't know what you are trying to say, you started here saying that the Republicans were going to regroup because the Democrats were going to throw the election to them because of their stance on gun control.  When it was pointed out that the actual stance that Democrats are taking is quite popular, and the part that isn't won't even get to the floor you went on a harangue about how you would "never vote for a democrat who supported gun bans."  We managed to tease out of you what that meant (apparently you support background checks and loophole closing) but at that point you are 75-90% in agreement with the democrats so your drama queening about how you will never vote for certain democrats (if they support "gun bans") irrespective of whether or not you  agree with them on every single other issue labels you as either an extreme single issue voter (who really can't be taken very seriously) or as someone trying to change the subject (as pointed out by Weaver).
2013-03-19 01:20:15 PM  
1 votes:

manimal2878: If everybody knows it's going to die on the vine, they need to come out and say why, because it is a stupid idea.  Not just let it ride, so that dems can talk out of both sides of their mouth, claiming that they really want to ban weapons, but also saying no that's crazy  really we only want to close loopholes.


Why would they do that?  As long as they're letting it go through committee it:

a. Keeps Feinstein happy, so she won't break ranks from spite
b. Keeps the delusional moonbat types off their back due to the impression they're actually getting what they want
c. Continually baits the right-wingers into saying  the most retarded things imaginable, which is a big plus for the 2014 election cycle.

Basically, you haven't provided any actual reason for them to cut it off early and offend some people instead of letting it die on the floor or in review where it's politically more or less harmless to them.
2013-03-19 12:56:17 PM  
1 votes:
manimal2878:
Your logic here is retarded.  Because democrats want to ban guns, the GOP has convinced me to vote against my own interests?

That makes no sense.


*sigh*

no, you are being LIED TOO about what the Democrats want to do about gun violence.  And you won't do your own research or believe there are alternatives.  so you'll vote for a lying scumbag evangelical christian who will raise your taxes, cut his own taxes and help run your job out of the country.  but hey - second amendment right?
2013-03-19 12:55:58 PM  
1 votes:
manimal2878:

I don't really see it as a single issue situation.  I see it as, I expect my candidates to approach issues rationally, based on facts and logic.  That is the single issue that I care about.  I do support background checks and the loophole closing.  I'm fine with those that support that, it is logical.

But you are not going to agree with every single stance that either party takes, you have to make the rational decision at some point to support the party that best reflects your interests overall or choose not to participate (and forfeit all of your political power).  A small group of democrats is supporting the assault weapon ban, but a larger group realizes this is a mistake and thus are keeping it out of the bill.  You have already stated that you support what is most likely going to get passed (which is being proposed by democrats).   So you are not going to ever vote for a democrat because some members of the caucus had an idea you disagree with, that isn't becoming law even though you think the Republicans are an absolutely terrible party?  How does this make any sense?
2013-03-19 12:51:08 PM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: manimal2878:

I'm not saying I'm going to vote republican because of the gun thing, I find republicans to largely be disgusting and vile.  But I'm not going to vote for anyone that supports weapon bans either.

And that's how the GOP manages to get you to vote against your own self interests....


As long as he has his guns he is not worried about policies that remove wage protection to pay tax cuts for the top tier, nor environmental laws that allow for his drinking water to catch fire while removing any recourse against the drilling companies and last but not least who needs health insurance if you got a gun. Amiright?
2013-03-19 12:48:38 PM  
1 votes:

manimal2878: Weaver95: manimal2878:

I'm not saying I'm going to vote republican because of the gun thing, I find republicans to largely be disgusting and vile.  But I'm not going to vote for anyone that supports weapon bans either.

And that's how the GOP manages to get you to vote against your own self interests....


No, that is how the Democrats convince me not to vote for them either.


again, you make my point for me.
2013-03-19 12:34:10 PM  
1 votes:

manimal2878: Or every gun show has a booth that you can get a check and a wrist band for that day.


So simple, a farker can come up with the most obvious solution.
2013-03-19 12:19:24 PM  
1 votes:

manimal2878: Weaver95: I have no idea how they're going to get outta this one.

They don't need to get out of it, the democrats will bail them out by pushing the gun issue.


I think conservative hegemony on the gun issue ended when a crazy dude put a bullet into the brainpan of 20 first-graders.  There is a large bi-partisan consensus that something needs to be done.  I think the assault weapon ban is off the table (it is honestly a bad idea and harry Reid will never let it come to a vote) but it is a useful bargaining chip.  Comprehensive background checks for gun purchase and the removal of the gun show loophole is garnering 80%+ support across the ideological spectrum.  It's also not helping them that Wayne LaPierre is going all clownshoes on the issue.  This is not 1995.
2013-03-19 12:06:55 PM  
1 votes:
The GOP has two policies: tax cuts and shaming sluts.
2013-03-19 12:02:37 PM  
1 votes:
You know - if the GOP figures out a way to bring old dead people back to life they just might have a chance.  Seriously, I think that's a big part of their problem - the people who religiously vote "R" are dying.

That and the whole "we hate and seek to punish everyone who is not like us".....
2013-03-19 11:58:22 AM  
1 votes:

Foundling: . (both parties) If somebody is not working, they need to show up at some government building prior to 8am. They will be training for a new job till noon. They will get a light lunch at noon. They will be pushing resumes and calling potential employers till 5pm. At the end of the day they will get one day's worth of welfare. Conservatives don't  get to call anybody lazy. Fatso doesn't get to make fun of people on welfare at 11am anymore. Liberals can't say we're neglecting the poor. Employers don't get to create a worse work environment than this, because it's always there. When one of these offices gets ten unemployed people, they put their skills together to create a start-up company, so they're not dependent on employers that already exist.


Why don't they, I don't know, do something actually productive that helps the economy like improving infrastructure and conservation?
2013-03-19 11:56:20 AM  
1 votes:
From what I can see, the Republican's focus is controlling state governments.  The power that comes with that enables them to legally propose and pass legislation that disenfranchises potentially pro-Democrat voters.  Yes, the courts will intervene, but on balance I believe the Republicans will succeed.  They have learnt that no matter how nefarious the action, the news-cycle will move on in a few days.
2013-03-19 11:55:13 AM  
1 votes:

Gergesa: considering that Hispanics are often ideologically liberal for reasons beyond immigration.

They are liberal in the same sense that Richard Lugar was a RINO.  The Republican party has gone so far to the right that Reagan is liberal by comparison.


Or people like my wife are now considered liberal and she is actually pretty conservative.

Except, she uses common sense. She really is anti-abortion but realizes that ship has sailed and the issue was settled 40 yeas ago. Plus, she realizes that people are going to get them no matter what so they may as well do it safely. I'm fairly sure she is for abstinence (of course, we farked like crazy before we were married) but also knows that kids need to know about birth control and protecting themselves.

And after the Rapey McRaperson comments during the last election cycle, she vowed to never vote for a Republican again.

And she thinks Sarah Palin is an idiot. So she has that going for her.
2013-03-19 11:51:23 AM  
1 votes:

markie_farkie: Here's your problem, GOP... The vast majority of your base identifies with, and worships this:

[cdn02.cdnwp.thefrisky.com image 600x450]


Point of order: You can get those in New York City. I can walk two blocks and get a farking 48-ounce Super Big Gulp for two bucks and change. 7-11 is exempt as a "grocery," and can sell huge sodas.

It doesn't make the law any less stupid, but like so many right-wing tropes it's based on an example that has absolutely no basis in reality.
2013-03-19 11:44:02 AM  
1 votes:

Foundling: 3. (both parties) If somebody is not working, they need to show up at some government building prior to 8am. They will be training for a new job till noon.


This would require a substantial increase in government and higher taxes to implement, something that one party finds abhorrent.
2013-03-19 11:28:07 AM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: dr_blasto: Weaver95: look - the GOP isn't stupid.

Yes, they are.

no, they're not.  they are delusional, they are obstinate and they are arrogant.  But they aren't stupid.  think of the Republicans as being more the victims of a mental illness than being stupid.  they are driven by a set of goals that conflicts with the reality around them...but their mythology and shared delusions are internally consistent (for the most part).  the mental illness bit comes in when they choose to ignore inconvenient facts in favor of their echo chamber delusions.  if they were simply stupid we would be able to lie and trick them very easily.  As it stands, Obama and the Democrats aren't winning against the Republicans because they've out-thought the GOP...they're winning because the GOP's ideology is so extreme, so insane that the rest of the country wants nothing to do with it.  And because the Republican party is so insane, they simply are not capable of changing their approach.  that option simply does not exist for the Republican party.  they KNOW that they're losing.  they KNOW that their too extreme.  But they can't change their ideology any more than someone who's OCD could stop touching a door handle three times before opening it.  they know it's wrong, they KNOW it...but they can't help themselves.


This. Some of the most brilliant people I've ever known are Republican. Everything is fine and dandy as long as you don't bring up politics or religion. It gets scary though when you dare to even mention Obamas name or even put the letters O and B close enough together to even make that sound that they turn into that fire-breathing hell beast devoid of all things logical. It really is an amazing sight to behold.
2013-03-19 11:26:10 AM  
1 votes:
1. Focus on rewarding work (I do not mean an A+ for participation) and encouraging the success of businesses with less than 50 employees.

2. Quit telling Americans how to live. "Freedom" does not include the right to own people.

3. (both parties) If somebody is not working, they need to show up at some government building prior to 8am. They will be training for a new job till noon. They will get a light lunch at noon. They will be pushing resumes and calling potential employers till 5pm. At the end of the day they will get one day's worth of welfare. Conservatives don't  get to call anybody lazy. Fatso doesn't get to make fun of people on welfare at 11am anymore. Liberals can't say we're neglecting the poor. Employers don't get to create a worse work environment than this, because it's always there. When one of these offices gets ten unemployed people, they put their skills together to create a start-up company, so they're not dependent on employers that already exist.

If both parties hate me for these ideas, then good.
2013-03-19 11:19:13 AM  
1 votes:
Reagan brought in the social conservatives and for nearly two decades the financial leaders of the Republican Party was happy to pay lip service to them in order to get their votes. They did not actually care about any of their issues, because they have nothing to do with money - in fact many business leaders have pointed out that a lot of the social conservative policies COST money. But that was OK, because they had no intention of implementing any of them - they successfully convince social conservatives that "big business" was good for them, and got their votes.

The problem for them is that said social conservatives eventually got pissed off and started getting their own candidates elected during the 2000s/Bush years, and the party elites don't know what to do now. Said conservatives now want absolute adherence to their views from any and all candidates, and some of those views don't play well outside of their circles.

I look at the Portman thing - if you head to Townhall or Freep you'll see dozens of threads filled with hundreds or thousands of posts of people talking about how the gay issue is simply not negotiable, and they won't accept a candidate that compromises on it. Others openly wonder why an issue that affects such a small percentage of people is actually getting attention, and assume it's a conspiracy. They don't get that people can be in favor of fairness or equality for OTHERS and consider that as actually being important.

As long as the social conservatives are a huge focus, the party will be in trouble in national elections. Local and state elections, where the governor of a non-Bible State can profess neutrality on such, they do betterz
2013-03-19 11:03:15 AM  
1 votes:

DROxINxTHExWIND: Its all about being able to better fool the voters into voting against their self-interests.


Chuck Todd yesterday - "The GOP does not yet know whether it needs to improve the pizza or the box."

// looking like, for the first time, the GOP has a laser-like focus on the box
2013-03-19 11:00:27 AM  
1 votes:

St_Francis_P: considering that Hispanics are often ideologically liberal for reasons beyond immigration.

And by "ideologically liberal" they mean staunchly anti-abortion conservative Catholics, who might vote conservative if Republicans didn't make it so plain that they hate them.


I posted this story in another thread yesterday, but it is worth repeating..

Many years ago when I was a much younger man, I lusted after a beautiful Mexican girl that I worked with. She was super devout and fairly conservative.

I met her a bit before the 2000 elections and it surprised me that she was firmly in Gore's camp. I eventually asked her how she could vote for a democrat when I knew how conservative she was.

Her response was "The Republicans hate us". Enough said.

I never did get in her pants. Her crazy was a special kind of crazy.
2013-03-19 10:53:59 AM  
1 votes:

Lost Thought 00: St_Francis_P: considering that Hispanics are often ideologically liberal for reasons beyond immigration.

And by "ideologically liberal" they mean staunchly anti-abortion conservative Catholics, who might vote conservative if Republicans didn't make it so plain that they hate them.

No, what they mean is "poor", and thus more in favor of redistributionist policies. Not everything has to boil down to religion, you know


I'm perfectly happy if you guys give up on them. Honest; please proceed.
2013-03-19 10:53:18 AM  
1 votes:
St_Francis_P:
Of course not every Hispanic falls neatly into a political box, but it's a fact that Bush had good success getting them to vote for him. And it's common sense that the hate from the GOP isn't going to encourage them to vote Republican. The alternative is to give up on a large and growing bloc of voters.

yes but remember - compromise of any sort is weakness.  the GOP cannot compromise on immigration reform.  Not even to save themselves.
2013-03-19 10:32:28 AM  
1 votes:

Speaker2Animals: GiantRex:  Now, tell me, is it likely that there are any voters (let alone the couple of million that would have been needed to sway the results) who voted for Obama because the GOP isn't conservative enough? What a crock of shiat.

I think their rationale is that these people didn't vote for Obama but instead sat out the election, that the GOP needs to twist the Derp dial to 11 to get more true conservatives to vote. The GOP won't change until they nominate a "true conservative" for the presidency and then watch him(her) get beaten like a Christopher Walken cowbell.


But, of course, losing is proof that the person they nominated wasn't really a "true conservative" and the next time they'll be sure to nominate a real one. Rinse and repeat.
2013-03-19 10:26:21 AM  
1 votes:

GiantRex:  Now, tell me, is it likely that there are any voters (let alone the couple of million that would have been needed to sway the results) who voted for Obama because the GOP isn't conservative enough? What a crock of shiat.


I think their rationale is that these people didn't vote for Obama but instead sat out the election, that the GOP needs to twist the Derp dial to 11 to get more true conservatives to vote. The GOP won't change until they nominate a "true conservative" for the presidency and then watch him(her) get beaten like a Christopher Walken cowbell.
2013-03-19 10:15:56 AM  
1 votes:
We all think about ourselves in terms of stories. I'm a policy analyst, and we all know that a single anecdote told to the right politician at the right time can launch a new initiative more easily than a binder full of carefully researched facts.

The GOP rely on the most toxic story there is: "They think they're better than you. They think they deserve something you don't have."  In the end, people didn't like Romney, they didn't much like the GOP policies, but they still voted R because they don't want to think of themselves as the kind of people who would vote for Democrats.

The problem is, the GOP story is tightening to appeal to a smaller and smaller group of people, and I don't know how they get themselves out of that corner without radically rewriting the message, which will 1) lose the trust of their base, and 2) end up indistinguishable from the Democrats.
2013-03-19 10:07:32 AM  
1 votes:

FlashHarry: Weaver95: look - the GOP isn't stupid.  they KNOW why they lost.  But they cannot actually admit to those reasons in public...not without setting off another civil war within the ranks.  they're trapped in a cage of their own making.  the evangelicals won't let them slide on moral issues, the corporate elite won't let them slide one penny on fiscal issues, and years of training their rank and file to believe that ANY compromise is a sign of weakness prevents them from brokering even an internal peace accord, let alone finding some way to make a deal with the Democrats.

that's probably the best, most succinct explanation of the state of the current GOP i've seen. this should be printed on cards and handed out at CPAC.


They wouldn't let you in the door with one.
2013-03-19 09:51:46 AM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: it's possible the GOP could just well...'freeze in place' for a while.  they become so preoccupied with their own internal issues that they tune out the rest of the world almost completely.  at that point, the Democrats could easily elect almost anyone to office with little or no effective opposition.


That's a possibility but I doubt it would happen beyond 2016.

My fear is that the GOP's woes translate into the Democrats getting holier-than-thou and not caring about who they put up, and we end up with another Dubya because "well god, Gore is just  so boring..."
2013-03-19 09:40:20 AM  
1 votes:
insidepulse.com
Sam, this patient died because he was old, white, hated women, minorities and believed Reaganomics was feasible.
2013-03-19 09:24:00 AM  
1 votes:
RNC autopsy - the anus was remarkable.
 
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