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(Scientific American)   In the bourbon and whiskey business, the barrel is everything. That's why distillers are experimenting with new barrels and aging processes, including putting the barrels on a boat and letting them sail the seven seas for four years   (scientificamerican.com) divider line 112
    More: Cool, Makers, cellulose, low-pressures, straws, distillates, caramel  
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8061 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Mar 2013 at 3:31 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-19 03:38:59 AM
1.bp.blogspot.com

YAARR, Me hearties! There be grog aplenty adrift in the drink. Swash yer buckles and grow some sea legs, there be plenty of booty for us all!
 
2013-03-19 03:39:21 AM
Trying to stave off the competition? harharharharhar
 
2013-03-19 03:39:53 AM
Where do I put in my resume to be "guy who drives a tugboat full of whiskey around the oceans". Because that sounds farking grand. I don't even drink, the booze would be safe with me!
 
2013-03-19 03:41:42 AM
I can't wait until the rum distiller's catch on to this and recreate the original Nelson's Blood small batch.

/if the seeaaaaa waaas whisky, and I was a diving duck...
//I'd swim to the bottom and I don't know if I'd come up
 
2013-03-19 03:45:43 AM
How cute, trying out one of the things that makes Norwegian akvavit so durn tasty.

http://www.norsk-akevitt.org/article.aspx?catID=1321&artID=3954
 
2013-03-19 03:49:18 AM
Side note for subby: "whiskey" is the term for any distilled beverage made (usually blended) from grain mash.  Bourbon is a type of whiskey.

You don't have to say "bourbon and whiskey", if you say "whiskey" by itself you convey the same information in fewer words.
 
2013-03-19 04:09:08 AM

Jim_Callahan: Side note for subby: "whiskey" is the term for any distilled beverage made (usually blended) from grain mash.  Bourbon is a type of whiskey.

You don't have to say "bourbon and whiskey", if you say "whiskey" by itself you convey the same information in fewer words.


Bourbon drinkers need things spelled out for them.
Whiskey drinkers don't like bourbon sullying their good name.

It's a win-win
 
2013-03-19 04:15:56 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 615x469]

YAARR, Me hearties! There be grog aplenty adrift in the drink. Swash yer buckles and grow some sea legs, there be plenty of booty for us all!


Done in one

/also where do I sign up?
 
2013-03-19 04:17:33 AM

WegianWarrior: How cute, trying out one of the things that makes Norwegian akvavit so durn tasty.

http://www.norsk-akevitt.org/article.aspx?catID=1321&artID=3954


Yep. Linie Aquavit is named after the tradition of sending oak barrels of akvavit on ships from Norway to Australia and back again, thereby passing the equator (Linie) twice before being bottled. http://www.linie.com/
 
2013-03-19 04:18:48 AM
People go to a lot of trouble to make yeast piss palatable.
 
2013-03-19 04:28:52 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: People go to a lot of trouble to make yeast piss palatable.


Indeed.

Well, back to enjoying my demucilaged, roasted, ground, brewed beverage.
 
2013-03-19 04:29:26 AM
And the next time you're going on about the ills of society I'm going to remind you that somebody is spending the time/money to do this instead of the time/money to help fix the problem...

And you're free to tell me to shut up because even though I don't drink this sounds like a grand idea... Then again I love experiments.
 
2013-03-19 04:31:57 AM

Delay: WegianWarrior: How cute, trying out one of the things that makes Norwegian akvavit so durn tasty.

http://www.norsk-akevitt.org/article.aspx?catID=1321&artID=3954

Yep. Linie Aquavit is named after the tradition of sending oak barrels of akvavit on ships from Norway to Australia and back again, thereby passing the equator (Linie) twice before being bottled. http://www.linie.com/


And aquavit is derived from the Latin 'Aqua Vitae' or 'Water of Life'. And, the word whisky is derived from the Gaelic version of the phrase 'Water of Life'.

It's all coming full circle now.

Or its just some random fact that's been stuck in my head for too many years.
 
2013-03-19 04:40:51 AM
It is another way of making drinkers a lot more drunk that usual. If Katy Perry and Rihanna drinks this, they would get so drunk they're gonna wish they were pornstars.
celeblowdown.com
 
2013-03-19 04:56:49 AM
IPW?
 
2013-03-19 05:16:34 AM
I like my Jack Daniels wood chips. They give things a nice flavor and they smell good even before you burn them.
 
2013-03-19 05:44:38 AM
A nice Boone's is good enough for me.
 
2013-03-19 06:09:42 AM
I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that commercial moonshine is improving.

/RIP Popcorn
 
GBB
2013-03-19 06:21:43 AM

Tobin_Lam: I like my Jack Daniels wood chips. They give things a nice flavor and they smell good even before you burn them.


Wood chips.... That give me an idea.  If they are looking for more surface area, why don't they use charred wood chips in the barrel?  Or perhaps peices of the staves floating around in there?
 
2013-03-19 06:29:08 AM

GBB: Tobin_Lam: I like my Jack Daniels wood chips. They give things a nice flavor and they smell good even before you burn them.

Wood chips.... That give me an idea.  If they are looking for more surface area, why don't they use charred wood chips in the barrel?  Or perhaps peices of the staves floating around in there?


According to the article, that's what Maker's Mark did, putting French oak staves inside American oak barrels for their 46 brand.

Also, bad subby: 1) nothing in the article about ships, and 2) that practice is only "new" if you think in geologic terms.
 
2013-03-19 06:48:27 AM

Jim_Callahan: Side note for subby: "whiskey" is the term for any distilled beverage made (usually blended) from grain mash.  Bourbon is a type of whiskey.

You don't have to say "bourbon and whiskey", if you say "whiskey" by itself you convey the same information in fewer words.


But if you want to really be inclusive, you should say "Whisky and whiskey".

Speaking of whisky, if anyone's interested, Compass Box is doing some cool stuff like this with their Scotch. Some of their products are downright fantastic, too.

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-03-19 07:18:45 AM
Whisky and whiskey are fundamentally just "wood tea" made with vodak instead of water.
 
2013-03-19 07:20:33 AM

HotWingAgenda: I can't wait until the rum distiller's catch on to this and recreate the original Nelson's Blood small batch.

/if the seeaaaaa waaas whisky, and I was a diving duck...
//I'd swim to the bottom and I don't know if I'd come up


Came for Admiral Nelson, leaving drunk after tapping the keg paying my respects
 
2013-03-19 07:32:43 AM

TheWhoppah: Whisky and whiskey are fundamentally just "wood tea" made with vodak instead of water.


and vodka is just a mixture of ethanol, water an impurities. Your point being?
 
2013-03-19 07:36:18 AM

TheWhoppah: Whisky and whiskey are fundamentally just "wood tea" made with vodak instead of water.


Grain mash.  Vodka would be potatoes.  Also they're distilled and often blended, which is kind of the opposite of how tea works (tea goes from a concentrate to a dilute through its processing, whiskey goes the other way).

Also, on a similar note to my previous post, Whisky and Whiskey are just different transliterations of an old British Isles word for "water".  They aren't separate things and you can just write one or the other, like Hercules and Herakles when you're talking about Greek mythology.

//Aware that z-C already made the second point in the form of a joke, but some people are genuinely confused on the point and I'm feeling educational.
 
2013-03-19 07:39:11 AM
The liquid mingled with the wood, giving the bourbon it's color, taste and smell.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU
 
2013-03-19 07:40:55 AM
SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY
 
2013-03-19 08:10:48 AM

GBB: Tobin_Lam: I like my Jack Daniels wood chips. They give things a nice flavor and they smell good even before you burn them.

Wood chips.... That give me an idea.  If they are looking for more surface area, why don't they use charred wood chips in the barrel?  Or perhaps peices of the staves floating around in there?


Makers 46 does the staves floating in the barrel thing already.
 
2013-03-19 08:20:46 AM

GBB: Tobin_Lam: I like my Jack Daniels wood chips. They give things a nice flavor and they smell good even before you burn them.

Wood chips.... That give me an idea.  If they are looking for more surface area, why don't they use charred wood chips in the barrel?  Or perhaps peices of the staves floating around in there?


I have a friend who tried just that, some unaged 'moonshine' from the store in some mason jars with charred bits of hardwood for six months to a year.

It was drinkable, but the only non-alcohol flavor was the vanilla flavors from the wood. He thinks he charred the wood chunks too much.
 
2013-03-19 08:35:26 AM
www.ourcellar.com.au

last night's tipple
 
2013-03-19 08:49:34 AM
Damn foodie hipsters have invaded SciAm and are perverting science in the pursuit of their fleeting
hedonistic fancies.

In this case, though:  I'm all for it.
 
2013-03-19 08:53:17 AM

Zeno-25: GBB: Tobin_Lam: I like my Jack Daniels wood chips. They give things a nice flavor and they smell good even before you burn them.

Wood chips.... That give me an idea.  If they are looking for more surface area, why don't they use charred wood chips in the barrel?  Or perhaps peices of the staves floating around in there?

I have a friend who tried just that, some unaged 'moonshine' from the store in some mason jars with charred bits of hardwood for six months to a year.

It was drinkable, but the only non-alcohol flavor was the vanilla flavors from the wood. He thinks he charred the wood chunks too much.


Maybe filter before drinking.  Or was he in too much of a hurry since he couldn't wait the seven years.  Did also take into account that the brew isn't suppose to be in the light during the seven years either.  They maybe traditions, but they are traditions built on experimentation.
 
2013-03-19 08:54:14 AM

PunGent: Also, bad subby: 1) nothing in the article about ships,


Missed page 2?

For its Ocean-Aged Bourbon, Jefferson's Reserve placed several barrels on a 126-foot ship and let the casks cruise at sea for nearly four years. The increased oceanic air pressure (compared with its warehouse), along with the Panama Canal's extreme heat pushed the whiskey deeper inside the wood, causing the wood sugars to caramelize and add a rumlike black hue.

But really, sounds like a bunch of bullshiat.  We need a distillery in New Orleans so they can claim atmospheric pressures greater than measly sea-level oceanic ones!  I would suspect heat and motion the more likely case than small changes in pressure to get more distillate through the wood fibers
 
2013-03-19 08:57:11 AM

Z-clipped: Speaking of whisky, if anyone's interested, Compass Box is doing some cool stuff like this with their Scotch. Some of their products are downright fantastic, too.


Mmmm, yes. It's too bad the Scotch Whisky Association is such a bunch of stuck-in-the-muds. More than once they've nixed their novel aging techniques.

/finished off the last of my first-edition Spice Tree a couple months back
 
2013-03-19 08:57:59 AM

lack of warmth: Zeno-25: GBB: Tobin_Lam: I like my Jack Daniels wood chips. They give things a nice flavor and they smell good even before you burn them.

Wood chips.... That give me an idea.  If they are looking for more surface area, why don't they use charred wood chips in the barrel?  Or perhaps peices of the staves floating around in there?

I have a friend who tried just that, some unaged 'moonshine' from the store in some mason jars with charred bits of hardwood for six months to a year.

It was drinkable, but the only non-alcohol flavor was the vanilla flavors from the wood. He thinks he charred the wood chunks too much.

Maybe filter before drinking.  Or was he in too much of a hurry since he couldn't wait the seven years.  Did also take into account that the brew isn't suppose to be in the light during the seven years either.  They maybe traditions, but they are traditions built on experimentation.


My understanding was that distillers are already doing that for small, fast batches.  The idea was that you could get a similar flavor in less time by increasing the surface area of the wood.

Of course, there's certain chemical processes that still require the long years of aging, but it's a process dependent on speed.
 
2013-03-19 09:01:25 AM
I've had the ocean aged whiskey...

Look, I'm a bourbon fan, I have about 12 to choose from in my bar right now, I've done the Urban Bourbon Trail, and the Kentucky Bourbon Trail, I've been to tastings and done tours of distillers not on the "trail".


This stuff is foul, it's a blackish, cloudy color and the taste is the same.  Gimmicky bullshiat.

/I want some of the tornado-surviving stuff, I hear it is amazing.

http://whiskeyreviewer.com/2012/03/colonel-e-h-taylor-tornado-bourbo n- whiskey-review/
 
2013-03-19 09:06:28 AM
For those of you wanting to age your own bourbon further, or make your own out of White-dog, my friend from High School makes mini-barrels.    You can get all kinds of shiat engraved on them.

http://www.bluegrassbarrels.com/

or I guess you could do this.

www.i-byob.com
 
2013-03-19 09:11:22 AM

HotWingAgenda: I can't wait until the rum distiller's catch on to this and recreate the original Nelson's Blood small batch.

/if the seeaaaaa waaas whisky, and I was a diving duck...
//I'd swim to the bottom and I don't know if I'd come up


So long as it doesn't contain a dead body, I'm sure it will be fine.  That was the original original Nelson's Blood small batch.  The Battle of Trafalgar and stuff...
 
2013-03-19 09:15:37 AM

Fubegra: Z-clipped: Speaking of whisky, if anyone's interested, Compass Box is doing some cool stuff like this with their Scotch. Some of their products are downright fantastic, too.

Mmmm, yes. It's too bad the Scotch Whisky Association is such a bunch of stuck-in-the-muds. More than once they've nixed their novel aging techniques.

/finished off the last of my first-edition Spice Tree a couple months back


Man, when that stuff hit the market years ago, I bought a bottle and shelved it.  Then heard they were going to be shut down by the gov't, so I resolved not to touch it.   Then I saw that Spice Tree was back on the market, so "oh hell" and I opened it.  Didn't realize until I went to buy another bottle that the second batch was completely different.  *sad trombone*

Oh well, at least I had the pleasure of tasting that sweet spicy goodness.
 
2013-03-19 09:46:16 AM
There is a new distiller in Cleveland that has developed a process for rapid aging of bourbon.  They claim they can get the equivalent of 12 years of aging in 6 months.

I have a bottle of it, and it seems decent to me, but I'm not a bourbon connoisseur.  I haven't seen anyone do a blind taste test yet, which is the only thing I'd trust.

http://www.clevelandwhiskey.com
 
2013-03-19 10:05:11 AM
Can someone post a link to that company in Houston that makes small barrels?  I'm still curious, but can't find the site any more.
 
2013-03-19 10:11:08 AM

bourbonslurp: Can someone post a link to that company in Houston that makes small barrels?  I'm still curious, but can't find the site any more.


Never mind.  Found it.

deepsouthbarrels.com
 
2013-03-19 10:16:00 AM

Jim_Callahan: TheWhoppah: Whisky and whiskey are fundamentally just "wood tea" made with vodak instead of water.

Grain mash.  Vodka would be potatoes.  Also they're distilled and often blended, which is kind of the opposite of how tea works (tea goes from a concentrate to a dilute through its processing, whiskey goes the other way).


Vodka doesn't have to be made from a potato mash, and often isn't.

Also, I see what TheWhoppah is saying, which I think you missed.  The point is that the neutral spirit is absorbing its color and flavor from the charred wood - almost like a tea.
 
2013-03-19 10:19:52 AM

EponymousCowHerd: There is a new distiller in Cleveland that has developed a process for rapid aging of bourbon.  They claim they can get the equivalent of 12 years of aging in 6 months.


sounds like russian diamonds...
 
2013-03-19 10:21:53 AM

Girion47: For those of you wanting to age your own bourbon further, or make your own out of White-dog, my friend from High School makes mini-barrels.    You can get all kinds of shiat engraved on them.

http://www.bluegrassbarrels.com/

or I guess you could do this.

[www.i-byob.com image 400x400]


I've also had good experiences with these guys.  Their prices are a bit better, and they offer in a wider range of sizes.
 
2013-03-19 10:29:08 AM

EponymousCowHerd: There is a new distiller in Cleveland that has developed a process for rapid aging of bourbon.  They claim they can get the equivalent of 12 years of aging in 6 months.

I have a bottle of it, and it seems decent to me, but I'm not a bourbon connoisseur.  I haven't seen anyone do a blind taste test yet, which is the only thing I'd trust.

http://www.clevelandwhiskey.com


I have to say that that sounds about as delicious as imagining the "Steel Reserve" of whiskey. Just the name of the City taints all things that come from there. One envisions burning rivers, rampant pollution, organized crime and lots of rustbelt decay.

Really love Great Lakes Brewing Co. "Christmas Ale" though. Wonderful stuff.
 
2013-03-19 10:38:15 AM

wingnut396: PunGent: Also, bad subby: 1) nothing in the article about ships,

Missed page 2?

For its Ocean-Aged Bourbon, Jefferson's Reserve placed several barrels on a 126-foot ship and let the casks cruise at sea for nearly four years. The increased oceanic air pressure (compared with its warehouse), along with the Panama Canal's extreme heat pushed the whiskey deeper inside the wood, causing the wood sugars to caramelize and add a rumlike black hue.

But really, sounds like a bunch of bullshiat.  We need a distillery in New Orleans so they can claim atmospheric pressures greater than measly sea-level oceanic ones!  I would suspect heat and motion the more likely case than small changes in pressure to get more distillate through the wood fibers


My guess is it's mostly marketing, although back in sailing ship days, it may have sense to use whisky as ballast, since you had to carry SOMETHING down there...usually rocks.
 
2013-03-19 10:38:57 AM
I forgot the name but I saw a bottle of cognac that did this same thing. I actually had no idea that it actually did anything effective, I just assumed that it was some hokey gimmick.
 
2013-03-19 11:11:38 AM
Just tried some Kirkland brand 20year scotch whisky... Yeah don't laugh but it was quite good... Worth every penny..
 
2013-03-19 11:15:16 AM

taeodong: Just tried some Kirkland brand 20year scotch whisky... Yeah don't laugh but it was quite good... Worth every penny..


They sell that by the full cask at Costco then?
 
2013-03-19 11:20:26 AM
I like my whiskey Scottish
 
2013-03-19 11:20:34 AM

neongoats: taeodong: Just tried some Kirkland brand 20year scotch whisky... Yeah don't laugh but it was quite good... Worth every penny..

They sell that by the full cask at Costco then?


Lol, by the pallet I think.. Cask, they did have some jack daniels in a barrel for 8k... I'd have to be a serious alcoholic to drink that much swill
 
2013-03-19 11:21:08 AM
If had a thing for this lately.

img1.findthebest.com
 
2013-03-19 11:25:21 AM

Clemkadidlefark: I like my whiskey Scottish


FTFY.  Or was [thatthejoke.jpg] ?
 
2013-03-19 11:36:03 AM

taeodong: Just tried some Kirkland brand 20year scotch whisky... Yeah don't laugh but it was quite good... Worth every penny..


we buy their vodka. it's grey goose, but with a kirkland label. i'm sure their bourbon is probably something decent.
 
2013-03-19 11:36:26 AM
FTA:
The former fortified wine barrels had wine soaked into the wood and are larger than standard whiskey barrels, giving the Woodford Reserve a larger surface-to-whiskey ratio....

I read this and immediately thought "someone didn't pay enough attention during their HS math classes". I was happy to see that the first few comments at the bottom of the article pointed this out. With a barrel, the volume will increase faster than the surface area, thus producing an inverse relationship of what the article suggests.
 
2013-03-19 11:46:00 AM

taeodong: Just tried some Kirkland brand 20year scotch whisky... Yeah don't laugh but it was quite good... Worth every penny..


I had that one over the holidays - it was quite good when I first opened it, but when I revisited it a few weeks later it seemed to fall apart. I then tried adding just a few drops of Ardbeg 10 to a glass, and that turned out to be awesome (not to mention conserving my supply of A10).
 
2013-03-19 11:52:06 AM

Bruxellensis: Jim_Callahan: TheWhoppah: Whisky and whiskey are fundamentally just "wood tea" made with vodak instead of water.

Grain mash.  Vodka would be potatoes.  Also they're distilled and often blended, which is kind of the opposite of how tea works (tea goes from a concentrate to a dilute through its processing, whiskey goes the other way).

Vodka doesn't have to be made from a potato mash, and often isn't.

Also, I see what TheWhoppah is saying, which I think you missed.  The point is that the neutral spirit is absorbing its color and flavor from the charred wood - almost like a tea.


Vodak is flavorless off the still.  Whisk(e)y is not.  The difference comes in the grains used, yeast strains, and any peat aromas from the malting process.
 
2013-03-19 11:52:14 AM

HaywoodJablonski: Jim_Callahan: Side note for subby: "whiskey" is the term for any distilled beverage made (usually blended) from grain mash.  Bourbon is a type of whiskey.

You don't have to say "bourbon and whiskey", if you say "whiskey" by itself you convey the same information in fewer words.

Bourbon drinkers need things spelled out for them.
Whiskey drinkers don't like bourbon sullying their good name.

It's a win-win


There is no real whiskey aside from bourbon. Just some distillates of rotted grains flavored with seaweed, dead fish, or whatever else was handy.
 
2013-03-19 11:53:32 AM
Whisky is a distilled grain spirit aged for at least three years in a oak cask.

Nothing is stopping you from aging a spirit in maple casks for two years but don't call it whisky. You can say its made in the same way as whisky apart from the age and cask but calling it whisky is fraud.
 
2013-03-19 12:10:58 PM
Wife got me a bottle of this for Christmas. I'm in love with it . . . (and her)

www.whiskyadvocateblog.com
 
2013-03-19 12:15:15 PM
They've had this down to religious ritual level of adherence and attention to detail (and have cultivated that image quite successfully even though it is largely an industrial process now) for how they make whiskey at many distillers.  Everything is controlled, and they've employed scientists and researchers for years.

For instance, doesn't the Jack Daniel's distillery have it's own saw mill to cut the wood for the charcoal used to char the barrels?

Even with all this, I'd wager one could trick whiskey taste testers the same as they do wine taste testers into picking cheap swill over the good stuff based on price alone.
 
2013-03-19 12:16:10 PM

mistersnark: Bruxellensis: Jim_Callahan: TheWhoppah: Whisky and whiskey are fundamentally just "wood tea" made with vodak instead of water.

Grain mash.  Vodka would be potatoes.  Also they're distilled and often blended, which is kind of the opposite of how tea works (tea goes from a concentrate to a dilute through its processing, whiskey goes the other way).

Vodka doesn't have to be made from a potato mash, and often isn't.

Also, I see what TheWhoppah is saying, which I think you missed.  The point is that the neutral spirit is absorbing its color and flavor from the charred wood - almost like a tea.

Vodak is flavorless off the still.  Whisk(e)y is not.  The difference comes in the grains used, yeast strains, and any peat aromas from the malting process.


Um no, not necessarily.  First, that will depend on the type of still used.  A reflux still will produce a pretty flavorless spirit, no matter what the sugar source was, or the yeast used.  Whiskey gets the bulk of its flavor from the barrels.  Islay Scotch whisky uses less reflux in their distillation to preserve some of the smoked flavor from the malt.  Some whisky producers use variations of the pot still for this reason.  The yeast doesn't matter as much, since hardly any of the esters from the yeast are carried into the final spirit.
 
2013-03-19 12:17:41 PM

lack of warmth: Zeno-25: GBB: Tobin_Lam: I like my Jack Daniels wood chips. They give things a nice flavor and they smell good even before you burn them.

Wood chips.... That give me an idea.  If they are looking for more surface area, why don't they use charred wood chips in the barrel?  Or perhaps peices of the staves floating around in there?

I have a friend who tried just that, some unaged 'moonshine' from the store in some mason jars with charred bits of hardwood for six months to a year.

It was drinkable, but the only non-alcohol flavor was the vanilla flavors from the wood. He thinks he charred the wood chunks too much.

Maybe filter before drinking.  Or was he in too much of a hurry since he couldn't wait the seven years.  Did also take into account that the brew isn't suppose to be in the light during the seven years either.  They maybe traditions, but they are traditions built on experimentation.


Also, one of the main ways the "moonshine" picks up its color and flavor from the wood is from being drawn in and out of the wood due to changes in temperature.  That may not work as well with wood chips in a glass jarl as it does with a wooden barrel.  Modern Marvels - "Distilleries" - Barrel Aging.
 
2013-03-19 12:24:03 PM

Polish Hussar: Also, one of the main ways the "moonshine" picks up its color and flavor from the wood is from being drawn in and out of the wood due to changes in temperature. That may not work as well with wood chips in a glass jarl as it does with a wooden barrel. Modern Marvels - "Distilleries" - Barrel Aging.


It works just fine with chips/cubes in a glass jar.  There's really no way to replace the real thing, but you can make a very good whiskey by using chips/cubes in a glass jar.  It'll get the right color, aroma, flavor and everything.
 
2013-03-19 12:24:06 PM
My precious, my birthday present
.www.aatiffany.com

/to myself
 
2013-03-19 12:24:22 PM

Jim_Callahan: TheWhoppah: Whisky and whiskey are fundamentally just "wood tea" made with vodak instead of water.

Grain mash.  Vodka would be potatoes.  Also they're distilled and often blended, which is kind of the opposite of how tea works (tea goes from a concentrate to a dilute through its processing, whiskey goes the other way).

Also, on a similar note to my previous post, Whisky and Whiskey are just different transliterations of an old British Isles word for "water".  They aren't separate things and you can just write one or the other, like Hercules and Herakles when you're talking about Greek mythology.

//Aware that z-C already made the second point in the form of a joke, but some people are genuinely confused on the point and I'm feeling educational.


You'd be surprised how many vodkas aren't made from potatoes.  Besides, it's just Russian for "Little Water"

I was shocked how many hard liquors are corn based, fermented up, then distilled (because ethanol is ethanol), then diluted back down  to the appropriate proof and flavors added.

This of course varies on what type of distillation method you're using.  I'm still researching things myself.

//Corn mash rules the liquor world apparently
 
2013-03-19 12:26:58 PM

meat0918: Jim_Callahan: TheWhoppah: Whisky and whiskey are fundamentally just "wood tea" made with vodak instead of water.

Grain mash.  Vodka would be potatoes.  Also they're distilled and often blended, which is kind of the opposite of how tea works (tea goes from a concentrate to a dilute through its processing, whiskey goes the other way).

Also, on a similar note to my previous post, Whisky and Whiskey are just different transliterations of an old British Isles word for "water".  They aren't separate things and you can just write one or the other, like Hercules and Herakles when you're talking about Greek mythology.

//Aware that z-C already made the second point in the form of a joke, but some people are genuinely confused on the point and I'm feeling educational.

You'd be surprised how many vodkas aren't made from potatoes.  Besides, it's just Russian for "Little Water"

I was shocked how many hard liquors are corn based, fermented up, then distilled (because ethanol is ethanol), then diluted back down  to the appropriate proof and flavors added.

This of course varies on what type of distillation method you're using.  I'm still researching things myself.

//Corn mash rules the liquor world apparently


Bingo.
 
2013-03-19 12:27:35 PM

meat0918: Corn mash rules the liquor world apparently


I didn't know that, but it doesn't surprise me given how cheap corn is due to how heavily subsidized it is.
 
2013-03-19 12:30:02 PM

Bruxellensis: Polish Hussar: Also, one of the main ways the "moonshine" picks up its color and flavor from the wood is from being drawn in and out of the wood due to changes in temperature. That may not work as well with wood chips in a glass jarl as it does with a wooden barrel. Modern Marvels - "Distilleries" - Barrel Aging.

It works just fine with chips/cubes in a glass jar.  There's really no way to replace the real thing, but you can make a very good whiskey by using chips/cubes in a glass jar.  It'll get the right color, aroma, flavor and everything.


If I actually liked what oak does to alcohol, I'd try this at home.

Took me nearly 30 years and a chance visit to a hardwood mill that happened to be cutting red oak that day to figure out why I don't like Merlot or Whiskey.

Walked in and asked "Why does it smell like whiskey in here?"
 
2013-03-19 12:34:19 PM
southeasttree.com

+

herbadmother.com

+

i-cdn.apartmenttherapy.com
 
2013-03-19 12:35:22 PM
Dangit, ate my image.

+

pjmedia.com
 
2013-03-19 12:37:17 PM

meat0918: Bruxellensis: Polish Hussar: Also, one of the main ways the "moonshine" picks up its color and flavor from the wood is from being drawn in and out of the wood due to changes in temperature. That may not work as well with wood chips in a glass jarl as it does with a wooden barrel. Modern Marvels - "Distilleries" - Barrel Aging.

It works just fine with chips/cubes in a glass jar.  There's really no way to replace the real thing, but you can make a very good whiskey by using chips/cubes in a glass jar.  It'll get the right color, aroma, flavor and everything.

If I actually liked what oak does to alcohol, I'd try this at home.

Took me nearly 30 years and a chance visit to a hardwood mill that happened to be cutting red oak that day to figure out why I don't like Merlot or Whiskey.

Walked in and asked "Why does it smell like whiskey in here?"


Careful.  You want white oak, not red oak.
 
2013-03-19 12:38:04 PM

meat0918: Bruxellensis: Polish Hussar: Also, one of the main ways the "moonshine" picks up its color and flavor from the wood is from being drawn in and out of the wood due to changes in temperature. That may not work as well with wood chips in a glass jarl as it does with a wooden barrel. Modern Marvels - "Distilleries" - Barrel Aging.

It works just fine with chips/cubes in a glass jar.  There's really no way to replace the real thing, but you can make a very good whiskey by using chips/cubes in a glass jar.  It'll get the right color, aroma, flavor and everything.

If I actually liked what oak does to alcohol, I'd try this at home.

Took me nearly 30 years and a chance visit to a hardwood mill that happened to be cutting red oak that day to figure out why I don't like Merlot or Whiskey.

Walked in and asked "Why does it smell like whiskey in here?"


Whiskey and wine barrels are typically made from whiteoak.

/Always thought red oak smelled sour and vinegary myself.
 
2013-03-19 12:41:29 PM

mistersnark: meat0918: Bruxellensis: Polish Hussar: Also, one of the main ways the "moonshine" picks up its color and flavor from the wood is from being drawn in and out of the wood due to changes in temperature. That may not work as well with wood chips in a glass jarl as it does with a wooden barrel. Modern Marvels - "Distilleries" - Barrel Aging.

It works just fine with chips/cubes in a glass jar.  There's really no way to replace the real thing, but you can make a very good whiskey by using chips/cubes in a glass jar.  It'll get the right color, aroma, flavor and everything.

If I actually liked what oak does to alcohol, I'd try this at home.

Took me nearly 30 years and a chance visit to a hardwood mill that happened to be cutting red oak that day to figure out why I don't like Merlot or Whiskey.

Walked in and asked "Why does it smell like whiskey in here?"

Whiskey and wine barrels are typically made from whiteoak.

/Always thought red oak smelled sour and vinegary myself.


Makes beautiful furniture, though.
 
2013-03-19 12:45:53 PM

Bruxellensis: mistersnark: meat0918: Bruxellensis: Polish Hussar: Also, one of the main ways the "moonshine" picks up its color and flavor from the wood is from being drawn in and out of the wood due to changes in temperature. That may not work as well with wood chips in a glass jarl as it does with a wooden barrel. Modern Marvels - "Distilleries" - Barrel Aging.

It works just fine with chips/cubes in a glass jar.  There's really no way to replace the real thing, but you can make a very good whiskey by using chips/cubes in a glass jar.  It'll get the right color, aroma, flavor and everything.

If I actually liked what oak does to alcohol, I'd try this at home.

Took me nearly 30 years and a chance visit to a hardwood mill that happened to be cutting red oak that day to figure out why I don't like Merlot or Whiskey.

Walked in and asked "Why does it smell like whiskey in here?"

Whiskey and wine barrels are typically made from whiteoak.

/Always thought red oak smelled sour and vinegary myself.

Makes beautiful furniture, though.


Fair point.  Quite a bit cheaper, too.

BTW, you're entirely correct about the flavor of spirits off the still; entirely dependent on the process.  I will say that most American vodka I encounter is basically flavorless, watered-down EtOH.  Not so much for even the white whiskies I've had.
 
2013-03-19 12:54:01 PM

mistersnark: meat0918: Bruxellensis: Polish Hussar: Also, one of the main ways the "moonshine" picks up its color and flavor from the wood is from being drawn in and out of the wood due to changes in temperature. That may not work as well with wood chips in a glass jarl as it does with a wooden barrel. Modern Marvels - "Distilleries" - Barrel Aging.

It works just fine with chips/cubes in a glass jar.  There's really no way to replace the real thing, but you can make a very good whiskey by using chips/cubes in a glass jar.  It'll get the right color, aroma, flavor and everything.

If I actually liked what oak does to alcohol, I'd try this at home.

Took me nearly 30 years and a chance visit to a hardwood mill that happened to be cutting red oak that day to figure out why I don't like Merlot or Whiskey.

Walked in and asked "Why does it smell like whiskey in here?"

Whiskey and wine barrels are typically made from whiteoak.

/Always thought red oak smelled sour and vinegary myself.


It had that vinegary smell as well, but an undertone of whiskey to it.

They might have been cutting white oak earlier that day.  This mill cut a lot of different hardwoods to order.  One day it was ash, another some kind of maple.
 
2013-03-19 12:54:15 PM

Fubegra: taeodong: Just tried some Kirkland brand 20year scotch whisky... Yeah don't laugh but it was quite good... Worth every penny..

I had that one over the holidays - it was quite good when I first opened it, but when I revisited it a few weeks later it seemed to fall apart. I then tried adding just a few drops of Ardbeg 10 to a glass, and that turned out to be awesome (not to mention conserving my supply of A10).


I'll have to try A10.. my goto whisky at the moment is glenlivet and whiskey, knob creek.. this kirkland stuff is great for what I paid.  Would like to know the distiller but couldn't find anything on the label or internets.  Well, here's hoping it holds together longer than 2 weeks.

*not actually drinking at work
**would like to considering i'm in IT
 
2013-03-19 12:55:50 PM

mistersnark: Bruxellensis: mistersnark: meat0918: Bruxellensis: Polish Hussar: Also, one of the main ways the "moonshine" picks up its color and flavor from the wood is from being drawn in and out of the wood due to changes in temperature. That may not work as well with wood chips in a glass jarl as it does with a wooden barrel. Modern Marvels - "Distilleries" - Barrel Aging.

It works just fine with chips/cubes in a glass jar.  There's really no way to replace the real thing, but you can make a very good whiskey by using chips/cubes in a glass jar.  It'll get the right color, aroma, flavor and everything.

If I actually liked what oak does to alcohol, I'd try this at home.

Took me nearly 30 years and a chance visit to a hardwood mill that happened to be cutting red oak that day to figure out why I don't like Merlot or Whiskey.

Walked in and asked "Why does it smell like whiskey in here?"

Whiskey and wine barrels are typically made from whiteoak.

/Always thought red oak smelled sour and vinegary myself.

Makes beautiful furniture, though.

Fair point.  Quite a bit cheaper, too.

BTW, you're entirely correct about the flavor of spirits off the still; entirely dependent on the process.  I will say that most American vodka I encounter is basically flavorless, watered-down EtOH.  Not so much for even the white whiskies I've had.


That's generally true, but it's not because of the specific yeast or sugar source necessarily.  It can be, but that would require a low reflux, or the use of a pot still, which most commercial distilleries don't use.  White whiskey derives some of its character from a sour mash.  Some of the acid from the wash is carried through the condenser and into the spirit, depending on the quality of the reflux.  A finely run reflux still can produce damn near pure ethanol from any mash, which of course would taste very neutral like a vodka.
 
2013-03-19 01:13:59 PM

taeodong: Fubegra: taeodong: Just tried some Kirkland brand 20year scotch whisky... Yeah don't laugh but it was quite good... Worth every penny..

I had that one over the holidays - it was quite good when I first opened it, but when I revisited it a few weeks later it seemed to fall apart. I then tried adding just a few drops of Ardbeg 10 to a glass, and that turned out to be awesome (not to mention conserving my supply of A10).

I'll have to try A10.. my goto whisky at the moment is glenlivet and whiskey, knob creek.. this kirkland stuff is great for what I paid.  Would like to know the distiller but couldn't find anything on the label or internets.  Well, here's hoping it holds together longer than 2 weeks.

*not actually drinking at work
**would like to considering i'm in IT




Knob Creek so sweet. I feel like I'm getting a cavity when I have it.
 
2013-03-19 01:18:29 PM
This would be as good a place as any to ask a question I've had.

I have a 4 month old son. I think it would be cool to have a barrel of Whiskey, Bourbon or (gasp) Rye put down for him to be bottled when he becomes a certain age.  I've seen offers where you can pick a barrel and have it special bottled for you (Jack Daniel's, Four Roses) but they seem to be for after aging. I would like to have a barrel marked for him before it is put down to age.

Any ideas?
 
2013-03-19 01:26:42 PM

StoPPeRmobile: taeodong:
Knob Creek so sweet. I feel like I'm getting a cavity when I have it.


Kinda sweet i guess, but when i think sweet i think irish whiskey... like 18 year jameson.. also.. was something i kept stocked in my bar.. until a friend drank the bottle with some coke.. His body may or may not be in my back yard.
 
2013-03-19 01:27:45 PM

misthop: This would be as good a place as any to ask a question I've had.

I have a 4 month old son. I think it would be cool to have a barrel of Whiskey, Bourbon or (gasp) Rye put down for him to be bottled when he becomes a certain age.  I've seen offers where you can pick a barrel and have it special bottled for you (Jack Daniel's, Four Roses) but they seem to be for after aging. I would like to have a barrel marked for him before it is put down to age.

Any ideas?


If you're looking to extend the aging of an existing whiskey, you can pick up used oak barrels from most homebrew supply shops or other online retailers.  If you're looking to create your own whiskey from a neutral spirit (vodka, everclear, white lightening*) then check these guys out for a virgin charred oak barrel.

*note: applicable laws may vary for your location.
 
2013-03-19 01:37:09 PM

misthop: This would be as good a place as any to ask a question I've had.

I have a 4 month old son. I think it would be cool to have a barrel of Whiskey, Bourbon or (gasp) Rye put down for him to be bottled when he becomes a certain age.  I've seen offers where you can pick a barrel and have it special bottled for you (Jack Daniel's, Four Roses) but they seem to be for after aging. I would like to have a barrel marked for him before it is put down to age.

Any ideas?


When you join the Maker's Mark Ambassador club your name goes on a barrel, about 8 years later you're invited to the distillery to dip a bottle containing the bourbon from your barrel.
 
2013-03-19 02:09:27 PM
a248.e.akamai.net

/ also goes around the world
 
2013-03-19 02:11:51 PM

Bruxellensis:

If you're looking to extend the aging of an existing whiskey, you can pick up used oak barrels from most homebrew supply shops or other online retailers.  If you're looking to create your own whiskey from a neutral spirit (vodka, everclear, white lightening*) then check these guys out for a virgin charred oak barrel.
*note: applicable laws may vary for your location.


Girion47:

When you join the Maker's Mark Ambassador club your name goes on a barrel, about 8 years later you're invited to the distillery to dip a bottle containing the bourbon from your barrel.


I wasn't really thinking about the length of aging correctly. I guess I really meant a scotch aged 18-21 years. When I realized that and search scotch I found a few:

Glenglassaugh
Glengoyne

 
2013-03-19 02:45:45 PM

Odd Bird: My precious, my birthday present
.[www.aatiffany.com image 200x400]

/to myself


The Real Holy Handgrenade.
 
2013-03-19 02:49:48 PM

LordOfThePings: Lenny_da_Hog: People go to a lot of trouble to make yeast piss palatable.

Indeed.

Well, back to enjoying my demucilaged, roasted, ground, brewed beverage.


On that note, maybe we should have a large cat poop out the finest and most desirable whiskey barrels.
 
2013-03-19 03:49:14 PM
All this talk of corn mash has me thinking of Miller High Life

/no other way to describe it
 
2013-03-19 04:42:07 PM

meat0918: Jim_Callahan: TheWhoppah: Whisky and whiskey are fundamentally just "wood tea" made with vodak instead of water.

Grain mash.  Vodka would be potatoes.  Also they're distilled and often blended, which is kind of the opposite of how tea works (tea goes from a concentrate to a dilute through its processing, whiskey goes the other way).

Also, on a similar note to my previous post, Whisky and Whiskey are just different transliterations of an old British Isles word for "water".  They aren't separate things and you can just write one or the other, like Hercules and Herakles when you're talking about Greek mythology.

//Aware that z-C already made the second point in the form of a joke, but some people are genuinely confused on the point and I'm feeling educational.

You'd be surprised how many vodkas aren't made from potatoes.  Besides, it's just Russian for "Little Water"

I was shocked how many hard liquors are corn based, fermented up, then distilled (because ethanol is ethanol), then diluted back down  to the appropriate proof and flavors added.

This of course varies on what type of distillation method you're using.  I'm still researching things myself.

//Corn mash rules the liquor world apparently


Hell, you might be shocked even harder. A lot of "Boutique" distillers, and purvayers of rot gut may just be buying industrial NGS (Neutral Grain Spirit) by the 55 gallon drum and redistilling it to get it to potable ranges of purity.

Where does NGS come from? Many places, but one big one is brewery waste water. AB for example. Most of their brewery plants have a separate sewage system. For collecting all the spilt beer and rinse water from the operation. That waste water is distilled of its ethanol and that is sold off as NGS to third party distributors as an industrial product. The majority of it is used as ethanol gasoline additive, but some of it gets turned into vodka
 
2013-03-19 05:14:40 PM

Cerebral Knievel: meat0918: Jim_Callahan: TheWhoppah: Whisky and whiskey are fundamentally just "wood tea" made with vodak instead of water.

Grain mash.  Vodka would be potatoes.  Also they're distilled and often blended, which is kind of the opposite of how tea works (tea goes from a concentrate to a dilute through its processing, whiskey goes the other way).

Also, on a similar note to my previous post, Whisky and Whiskey are just different transliterations of an old British Isles word for "water".  They aren't separate things and you can just write one or the other, like Hercules and Herakles when you're talking about Greek mythology.

//Aware that z-C already made the second point in the form of a joke, but some people are genuinely confused on the point and I'm feeling educational.

You'd be surprised how many vodkas aren't made from potatoes.  Besides, it's just Russian for "Little Water"

I was shocked how many hard liquors are corn based, fermented up, then distilled (because ethanol is ethanol), then diluted back down  to the appropriate proof and flavors added.

This of course varies on what type of distillation method you're using.  I'm still researching things myself.

//Corn mash rules the liquor world apparently

Hell, you might be shocked even harder. A lot of "Boutique" distillers, and purvayers of rot gut may just be buying industrial NGS (Neutral Grain Spirit) by the 55 gallon drum and redistilling it to get it to potable ranges of purity.

Where does NGS come from? Many places, but one big one is brewery waste water. AB for example. Most of their brewery plants have a separate sewage system. For collecting all the spilt beer and rinse water from the operation. That waste water is distilled of its ethanol and that is sold off as NGS to third party distributors as an industrial product. The majority of it is used as ethanol gasoline additive, but some of it gets turned into vodka


Actually, not really.  I figured if I am doing it with NGS for homemade liqueurs, someone is doing it on a more massive scale.

It's ethanol. The rest is just flavoring it and marketing it appropriately.
 
2013-03-19 05:17:14 PM

Cerebral Knievel: Where does NGS come from? Many places, but one big one is brewery waste water. AB for example. Most of their brewery plants have a separate sewage system. For collecting all the spilt beer and rinse water from the operation. That waste water is distilled of its ethanol and that is sold off as NGS to third party distributors as an industrial product. The majority of it is used as ethanol gasoline additive, but some of it gets turned into vodka


Now I have another reason for why I don't drink vodka.
 
2013-03-19 05:30:17 PM

meat0918: Cerebral Knievel: meat0918: Jim_Callahan: TheWhoppah: Whisky and whiskey are fundamentally just "wood tea" made with vodak instead of water.

Grain mash.  Vodka would be potatoes.  Also they're distilled and often blended, which is kind of the opposite of how tea works (tea goes from a concentrate to a dilute through its processing, whiskey goes the other way).

Also, on a similar note to my previous post, Whisky and Whiskey are just different transliterations of an old British Isles word for "water".  They aren't separate things and you can just write one or the other, like Hercules and Herakles when you're talking about Greek mythology.

//Aware that z-C already made the second point in the form of a joke, but some people are genuinely confused on the point and I'm feeling educational.

You'd be surprised how many vodkas aren't made from potatoes.  Besides, it's just Russian for "Little Water"

I was shocked how many hard liquors are corn based, fermented up, then distilled (because ethanol is ethanol), then diluted back down  to the appropriate proof and flavors added.

This of course varies on what type of distillation method you're using.  I'm still researching things myself.

//Corn mash rules the liquor world apparently

Hell, you might be shocked even harder. A lot of "Boutique" distillers, and purvayers of rot gut may just be buying industrial NGS (Neutral Grain Spirit) by the 55 gallon drum and redistilling it to get it to potable ranges of purity.

Where does NGS come from? Many places, but one big one is brewery waste water. AB for example. Most of their brewery plants have a separate sewage system. For collecting all the spilt beer and rinse water from the operation. That waste water is distilled of its ethanol and that is sold off as NGS to third party distributors as an industrial product. The majority of it is used as ethanol gasoline additive, but some of it gets turned into vodka

Actually, not really.  I figured if I am doing it with NGS for homemade liqueurs, someone is doing it on a more massive scale.

It's ethanol. The rest is just flavoring it and marketing it appropriately.


I wasn't trying to shock ya, or scare ya, ;) I was just trying to point out another source of the stuff that a lot of folks might not be aware of.

And you are quite right, it's all ethanol until you make it something else.

Vodak, of course, by definition, is supposed to not carry it's own flavor. A base ethanol to build up on in mixology. It makes sense for the stuff to be as pure and inoffensive as possible, just disregard the origin source of the spirit and you will be fine. I'm sure one could make a very fine whiskey using brewery run off derived NGS if one were to triple distill it to potable then treated s normal to the boubonization process.

And with this post, I have added "Vodak" to my smartphone custom dictionary.
 
2013-03-19 05:51:12 PM

Jim_Callahan: TheWhoppah: Whisky and whiskey are fundamentally just "wood tea" made with vodak instead of water.

Grain mash.  Vodka would be potatoes.  Also they're distilled and often blended, which is kind of the opposite of how tea works (tea goes from a concentrate to a dilute through its processing, whiskey goes the other way).


Most Vodka, including the top-shelf stuff, is distilled from grain mash instead of potatoes and has been for decades.
 
2013-03-19 06:08:15 PM
Noticed the praise for Compass Box, and the picture of Hedonism in particular. I'm partial to the Peat Monster, but overall I couldn't agree more.

http://whiskeyreviewer.com/2012/08/compass-box-hedonism-scotch-revie w/

Wemyss Malts is also doing some awesome stuff.

http://whiskeyreviewer.com/2012/11/wemyss-winter-larder-20-year-old- si ngle-cask-scotch-review/

whiskeyreviewer.com
 
2013-03-19 06:12:13 PM
I'd love to talk whiskey with this chick. She digs Bowmore.

http://whiskeyreviewer.com/2013/03/camille-crimson-talks-scotch/

whiskeyreviewer.com
 
2013-03-19 06:30:04 PM

telkinsjr: Wife got me a bottle of this for Christmas. I'm in love with it . . . (and her)

[www.whiskyadvocateblog.com image 400x1024]


Ooh-hah! Love Pappy.

As far as the ship-aged craze, I would be interested in trying some of the IPA that was hopped to hell and put aboard for the duration of a London-to-Mumbai trip.
 
2013-03-19 06:50:47 PM

dc0012c: telkinsjr: Wife got me a bottle of this for Christmas. I'm in love with it . . . (and her)

[www.whiskyadvocateblog.com image 400x1024]

Ooh-hah! Love Pappy.

As far as the ship-aged craze, I would be interested in trying some of the IPA that was hopped to hell and put aboard for the duration of a London-to-Mumbai trip.


Ah, part of the history lesson I give when i do the brew tour! Look for any IPA done in the English style rather than the american style. Should be hoppy upfront, and malty in the finish and around 7.5 to 9% abv.

The hops and alcohol are there as preservatives. So they will be dry and boozy. Good bitterness, but not a tremendous amount of hop flavor, should get a decent fusal burn, but not much, it is beer after all.

Keep in mind that hops were used as a perservative and acid blend to balance out the malt sweetness of the brew. If you were to take a colonial brewer and put them in front of a modern hophead, the brewer would be confused about the hophead gushing. For, to the brewer, what the hop head would be gushing about would be like someone for now times gushing about how the thing really brings out the character of the potasium sorbate.

There would be enough booze and hops to keep the stuff anti microbial and sanitary depending on the length of the journey. Colonial era IPA was designed to keep colonists and sea men of dieing of waterborne disease than to get them drunk.
So, what yer looking for is something that has nothing but mild boozy ness, and basic bitter, but overall, kind of watery believe it or not.
 
2013-03-19 07:08:42 PM

Bruxellensis: Careful.  You want white oak, not red oak.


I'm curious about the wood choices.  Is it that you don't get good flavor from other woods?  Do any introduce harmful impurities?

/Dreaming of becoming a distiller
//Start up costs . . . damn expensive
 
2013-03-19 07:42:28 PM

hstein3: Bruxellensis: Careful.  You want white oak, not red oak.

I'm curious about the wood choices.  Is it that you don't get good flavor from other woods?  Do any introduce harmful impurities?

/Dreaming of becoming a distiller
//Start up costs . . . damn expensive


Yep, a start up sized "craft" level tower starts around $20k thats without all the support equipment. You would be good to have a couple hundred grand in backing, and hope those investor's can wait 10+ years for any kind of return. The first five years or so yer cranking out young liqueurs and vodkas to pay the bill.

Its a fools errand, and it could take 15 years to make enough money to personally survive on.
 
2013-03-19 07:55:10 PM

hstein3: Bruxellensis: Careful.  You want white oak, not red oak.

I'm curious about the wood choices.  Is it that you don't get good flavor from other woods?  Do any introduce harmful impurities?

/Dreaming of becoming a distiller
//Start up costs . . . damn expensive


Making barrels out of red oak would be kinda funny.  The stuff is so porous they'd leak like sponges.  As a flavoring agent inside another container it will have some similarity to white oak (it certainly has a somewhat whiskey-like aroma when you cut it), but I'm sure it will also have some distinct differences, and those may not be entirely pleasant.
 
2013-03-19 10:10:45 PM

hstein3: Bruxellensis: Careful.  You want white oak, not red oak.

I'm curious about the wood choices.  Is it that you don't get good flavor from other woods?  Do any introduce harmful impurities?

/Dreaming of becoming a distiller
//Start up costs . . . damn expensive


I've read that red oak can be poisonous, but haven't verified that.  I have aged one of my IPAs on a small amount of cedar that turned out great.  I've also made whiskey with French and Hungarian Oak with O.K. results.  The best by far is charred American White Oak.   Other than that, I wouldn't stray too far out of the norm unless you know the wood and its effect on the product.
 
2013-03-19 10:14:05 PM

Cerebral Knievel: hstein3: Bruxellensis: Careful.  You want white oak, not red oak.

I'm curious about the wood choices.  Is it that you don't get good flavor from other woods?  Do any introduce harmful impurities?

/Dreaming of becoming a distiller
//Start up costs . . . damn expensive

Yep, a start up sized "craft" level tower starts around $20k thats without all the support equipment. You would be good to have a couple hundred grand in backing, and hope those investor's can wait 10+ years for any kind of return. The first five years or so yer cranking out young liqueurs and vodkas to pay the bill.

Its a fools errand, and it could take 15 years to make enough money to personally survive on.


You could start small and supplement the business with another avenue.  You could build a decent reflux still with a 15 gallon wash capacity for a couple grand.  That won't yield a whole lot of spirits at a time, but could get you started while you recuperate your (low) start up costs.  It would be expensive, fairly difficult, and very risky to start a full scale distillery on borrowed coin.  It certainly can be done, if you know what you're doing going into it.
 
2013-03-19 10:17:21 PM

Professor Science: hstein3: Bruxellensis: Careful.  You want white oak, not red oak.

I'm curious about the wood choices.  Is it that you don't get good flavor from other woods?  Do any introduce harmful impurities?

/Dreaming of becoming a distiller
//Start up costs . . . damn expensive

Making barrels out of red oak would be kinda funny.  The stuff is so porous they'd leak like sponges.  As a flavoring agent inside another container it will have some similarity to white oak (it certainly has a somewhat whiskey-like aroma when you cut it), but I'm sure it will also have some distinct differences, and those may not be entirely pleasant.


From my research and experience, there really is no replacement for charred American White Oak.  Over the centuries, it has been selected for its flavor contribution, filtering capability, porosity, and utility in cooperage.  IMO, you really can't get much better than that.  I've dabbled in French and Hungarian Oak, with adequate, but mildly disappointing results.
 
2013-03-19 10:25:07 PM

Tsubodai: FTA:
The former fortified wine barrels had wine soaked into the wood and are larger than standard whiskey barrels, giving the Woodford Reserve a larger surface-to-whiskey ratio....

I read this and immediately thought "someone didn't pay enough attention during their HS math classes". I was happy to see that the first few comments at the bottom of the article pointed this out. With a barrel, the volume will increase faster than the surface area, thus producing an inverse relationship of what the article suggests.


I missed this first time around the comments.  You're absolutely right.
 
2013-03-19 10:33:00 PM

Cerebral Knievel: dc0012c: telkinsjr: Wife got me a bottle of this for Christmas. I'm in love with it . . . (and her)

[www.whiskyadvocateblog.com image 400x1024]

Ooh-hah! Love Pappy.

As far as the ship-aged craze, I would be interested in trying some of the IPA that was hopped to hell and put aboard for the duration of a London-to-Mumbai trip.

Ah, part of the history lesson I give when i do the brew tour! Look for any IPA done in the English style rather than the american style. Should be hoppy upfront, and malty in the finish and around 7.5 to 9% abv.

The hops and alcohol are there as preservatives. So they will be dry and boozy. Good bitterness, but not a tremendous amount of hop flavor, should get a decent fusal burn, but not much, it is beer after all.

Keep in mind that hops were used as a perservative and acid blend to balance out the malt sweetness of the brew. If you were to take a colonial brewer and put them in front of a modern hophead, the brewer would be confused about the hophead gushing. For, to the brewer, what the hop head would be gushing about would be like someone for now times gushing about how the thing really brings out the character of the potasium sorbate.

There would be enough booze and hops to keep the stuff anti microbial and sanitary depending on the length of the journey. Colonial era IPA was designed to keep colonists and sea men of dieing of waterborne disease than to get them drunk.
So, what yer looking for is something that has nothing but mild boozy ness, and basic bitter, but overall, kind of watery believe it or not.


They made it at a higher ABV to be diluted once they reached port.  Of course, they didn't always do that, and noticed that it was just fine the way it was.  For the English, that was something tantamount to heresy.  Thus, the higher strength and higher bitterness palate was born and spread.

/same thing with Brandy
 
2013-03-19 11:47:48 PM
Bruxellensis:
They made it at a higher ABV to be diluted once they reached port.  Of course, they didn't always do that, and noticed that it was just fine the way it was.  For the English, that was something tantamount to heresy.  Thus, the higher strength and higher bitterness palate was born and spread.

/same thing with Brandy


of course, but the original poster was wondering what that colonial era stuff would've tasted like. in general practice, it would ahve been diluted at destination.. that was.. kinda, my round about way point.. I didn't get to finish my point because one of my long suffering co workers was trying to eat up my ear, and thengot pulled into give a tour of the brewery to ALL of the chefs that work in Colonial Williamsburg. then dealing with the sainted estranged bride once I actually got home..

its been an entertaining evening..

But yes... I have been giving the distilate avenue much thought.. and it is of my opinion that one would have to make a name forthem self with small spirits to keep the name and revenue going while waiting for the good stuff to mature. but to the point, if one were to start up a distilation operation.. one needs to think 30 years into the future, brewing, making, blending the entire time. you gotta think that no bourbon or whiskey can be counted as such unless it's spent at least two years on the wood.

during that time, you gotta house that stuff, and keep adding to it untill you have enough to be able to blend it off to make it something consistant and interesting..

marketing
marketing
marketing

in the meentime, you gotta come up with SOMETHING that can be cranked out in the down time to fund the operation, at least pay the rent,

its a long haul operation that one must be willing to dedcate themselves to and be able to weather not only a few years of lean times, but a few years of burning money with no return unless you can get creative.

If I were to do something like that... I would be running around the virginia wine country and buying up the crushes wine must and making american Grappa out of it. because.. well, no one else is doing it and it can be cranked out fast and easy, and it is useing a waste product that some folks are paying to get rid of. I could offer the service to rif them of it, if they want to pay me to do it ,then,  so be it..

but then.. you could probably make the shiat cheap, get people to pay you to take the raw ingredients away, perhaps even get some farmers to pay you for YOUR waste product. then you gotta educate the public into exactly what in the hell grappa even IS, get label approval from the ABC,the BATF, and the TTB,  and find  a distributer, who wants to deal with something that has no guarentee of availabilty when and where wanted.


it really is a lot easier to start a winery or a brewery and go from there when it comes to spirits
 
2013-03-20 04:46:40 AM
Another tasty one: scotch finished on Playmate boobies.

http://whiskeyreviewer.dive-gear-reviews.com/2013/02/gspirits-scotch -f inished-on-a-playmate/

whiskeyreviewer.com

It's... salty :-P
 
2013-03-20 08:53:33 AM

Cerebral Knievel: it really is a lot easier to start a winery or a brewery and go from there when it comes to spirits


Yep.  And that's the way some are doing it now.  Although, with some of the samples I've had, they had better stick to brewing and work on their distilling before they sell their boil kettle.  coughRoguecough
 
2013-03-20 03:31:33 PM
marked
 
2013-03-20 08:29:57 PM

Bruxellensis: Cerebral Knievel: it really is a lot easier to start a winery or a brewery and go from there when it comes to spirits

Yep.  And that's the way some are doing it now.  Although, with some of the samples I've had, they had better stick to brewing and work on their distilling before they sell their boil kettle.  coughRoguecough


y;know.. I know John, I wouldn't call him a close freind or anything like that, but we've hung out and chatted a couple or more times. and I hope once again to share a pint with the good man at CBC next week...

but I don't think he has anything to do with the distilates, and most of the stuff being cranked out of the place are products of marketing. and Mr. Mair is quite happy just coming into work every morning and cranking out beer..

and it is also of me personal opinion that there is not much point in buying anything from Rogue East of the Mississippi.The beer really doesn't travel well at all.

Dead guy ale is more or less a Maibock and tastes incredible no further east of the rockies, here on the east coast.. its damn decent.. but it has shown it miles.
 
2013-03-20 09:04:58 PM

Cerebral Knievel: Bruxellensis: Cerebral Knievel: it really is a lot easier to start a winery or a brewery and go from there when it comes to spirits

Yep.  And that's the way some are doing it now.  Although, with some of the samples I've had, they had better stick to brewing and work on their distilling before they sell their boil kettle.  coughRoguecough

y;know.. I know John, I wouldn't call him a close freind or anything like that, but we've hung out and chatted a couple or more times. and I hope once again to share a pint with the good man at CBC next week...

but I don't think he has anything to do with the distilates, and most of the stuff being cranked out of the place are products of marketing. and Mr. Mair is quite happy just coming into work every morning and cranking out beer..

and it is also of me personal opinion that there is not much point in buying anything from Rogue East of the Mississippi.The beer really doesn't travel well at all.

Dead guy ale is more or less a Maibock and tastes incredible no further east of the rockies, here on the east coast.. its damn decent.. but it has shown it miles.


My experience matches yours.  I wasn't impressed with anything I was able to get my hands on (beer wise) in the midwest.  I don't doubt that the miles subtract from the quality, as with most unpasteurized beers.  I have had some of the spirits they're making, which don't suffer from the distance like beer does, and all but one were just awful, and the one exception was O.K., but nothing I'd ever pay to drink.  I still have respect for the establishment, but they need to work on their spirits if they are to be taken seriously in that market.
 
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