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(Slate)   Why do schools keep using suspension as a punishment when all the little bastards want to do is go home in the first place?   (slate.com) divider line 174
    More: Stupid, do schools, youth courts, middle schools, truancy, Sandy Hook, punishments, throw in, toy gun  
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7219 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Mar 2013 at 7:08 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-18 05:35:18 PM
"....when all the little bastards want to do..."

Subby must be a bitter, overworked, underpaid, public school teacher.

/There,there, summer will be here soon
 
2013-03-18 05:46:56 PM
Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.
 
2013-03-18 05:48:17 PM
Always wondered about that myself. I came to the conclusion that school isn't there for the children, it's to give a job to people who can't get a real job. When you make their job difficult you got to go.
 
2013-03-18 05:53:43 PM
My sister was suspended for a week for wearing a t-shirt with a duck on it and my parents let her go with friends to the Caribbean for a week as "punishment".

The duck ban was started after the German club had some "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil " t-shirts printed with ducks rather than monkeys and people had been making quacking sounds behind the principal for a while.

The punishment that worked in Catholic  school was the paddle. If it was serious, they brought out the "Board of Education".  For some minor issues there was detention with the worst being forced to watch a clock for an hour.
 
2013-03-18 06:09:52 PM

Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.


It counts for attendance to get Federal grant money, and the kid gets no credit for work and attendance.

We're at a point that homeschooling isn't just for ultrareligious and the large-toothed.

School administrators can't touch your homeschooled kid.
 
2013-03-18 06:27:23 PM

Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.


A few districts have suspension schools.  You go to another school and do your homework and classwork and the penalty for any rule violation is more suspension.

Schools in some states lose money if a student is absent.
 
2013-03-18 06:45:38 PM
Because its better to do that then sending them to jail
 
2013-03-18 07:00:48 PM

Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.


But sometimes, you find out you have a lot more in common with each other than you thought!
 
2013-03-18 07:02:26 PM

Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.


now?
My high school had that 20 years ago.
I resolved never go get sent back there after the first time, because I didn't think I could take that much boredom again.
 
2013-03-18 07:10:01 PM
When I was in high school, I was suspended for ditching school. My mother went bonkers on what an asinine punishment that was, so we all got community service hours to do too. (Catholic school).

I still maintained my grades, it was just so fricken boring.
 
2013-03-18 07:10:35 PM
Why do we lock up the criminally insane when we are not punishing them?
 
2013-03-18 07:14:25 PM
Once there was a time that suspension meant a day home with a parent who would actually enact additional punishment....
 
2013-03-18 07:14:35 PM
...so the parents have to stay home from work to watch them, and beat them senseless for being little bratsopen a dialog to communicate with the little angels?
 
2013-03-18 07:15:16 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Always wondered about that myself. I came to the conclusion that school isn't there for the children, it's to give a job to people who can't get a real job. When you make their job difficult you got to go.


You've never actually confronted school discipline as even a thought exercise, have you.

/Hint: They aren't there for school. They're there for their  friends--staying home from school  sounds fun, right up until the kids discover that video games are only so interesting when no one's online. Also, there's the humiliation aspect.
//It doesn't work, TFA demonstrated that, but it is an actual punishment, and the 'those who can't do teach herpa derp' idea is why Finland has the best education system in the world and America doesn't.
 
2013-03-18 07:15:56 PM
Could it be that the schools want the parents to get involved in adjusting little snowflake's behavior?
 
2013-03-18 07:16:23 PM

SilentStrider: Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.

now?
My high school had that 20 years ago.
I resolved never go get sent back there after the first time, because I didn't think I could take that much boredom again.


Same with mine 13 years ago. But we still had out of school suspension as well, which for some reason was considered the more severe punishment by the administration. I was a bit jealous of friends who were suspended out of school and whose parents worked during the day.
 
2013-03-18 07:17:14 PM
Perks of punishment. Just like paid leave for corrupt cops.
 
2013-03-18 07:17:42 PM
Sometimes, the biggest knuckleheads thrive off of the attention they get from their peers. When you remove them from their audience, they run out of steam. Granted, this isn't the case for every kid who gets suspended, but it's part of the line of thinking in many instances.

/has worked in many schools for a half-dozen years
 
2013-03-18 07:18:55 PM
I hope everyone here is feeling trolly today, because all I have read so far is a bunch of stupid farking comments.

You remove them from the classroom so that the others can benefit from the student in question being gone.  No, we don't want your F ups when all the other students are trying their best.

On that note, suspensions for minor stuff is grade A stupid administration, and that is a big problem facing schools today. The administration, that is.
 
2013-03-18 07:20:51 PM
Because it's illegal to cane children into submission like the Victorians would.
 
2013-03-18 07:22:20 PM
I got in a fist fight with my best friend my 8th grade year, but he was smart enough to bring a knife from art class and cut me.  We both got a one day suspension.  I had to spend the whole day playing in the back yard with my pet beagle, and it was one of my fondest memories.   Life is weird, time to chill out is important, you know.
 
2013-03-18 07:22:38 PM

melewen: Once there was a time that suspension meant a day home with a parent who would actually enact additional punishment....


THIS.   If I'd been so bad as to get tossed out of school for a few days, it wasn't the "suspension" per se that would be a punishment, it would be the frightening things my father would have thought of to occupy my so called free time.

Thirty-five and that man still scares me.
 
2013-03-18 07:23:05 PM
Always wondered about that one myself, as someone who cut school often as a child.

"Little bastard doesn't want to come to school? Fine! We won't let them!"
 
2013-03-18 07:23:05 PM
Perhaps, a new punishment system should be devised.

Sex = 15 hours "volunteering" to take care of at least 10, 2 year olds.

Fighting = 10 hours in the blocks

Drugs = have to assist in the anti-drug thingys all year

Bullying = 15 hours of wearing a frilly pink dress for guys; 15 hours wearing painfully hideous clothes for girls.

Interrupting class = hog tied with duct tape and left for the duration of class.

/ to be continued
 
2013-03-18 07:23:27 PM
Why do schools keep using suspension as a punishment when all the little bastards want to do is go home in the first place?

Because it makes the little bastards the parent's problem instead of the school's, thereby punishing the parents, the people who inflicted the little bastards on the world in the first place.
 
2013-03-18 07:23:32 PM
Suspension is to punish the parents, not the children.
 
2013-03-18 07:23:51 PM
1) Most schools I know do on-school suspensions now.  You just sit in a room all day doing homework or reading a book or something.
2) The real point of suspension isn't the day-of punishment, it's the mark on your record that goes with you forever
 
2013-03-18 07:24:13 PM
At friend's school, they only suspend students out of school when they know the parents well enough to know they'll have consequences at home. If not, it's in-school and that includes cleaning the cafeteria, the windows, and (with parental permission) the bathrooms when the student isn't working on school work. He says they've actually had parents bring their kids in before school on out of school suspension days or on Saturday mornings to clean the bathrooms to make up for their infractions.

\not bad for a city school
\\ amazing what good parents can do
 
2013-03-18 07:24:42 PM
The same reason they push them through grade after grade when they can't read - actually doing something to address the root causes would require too much time and effort, and mean acknowledging a systemic failure.

In-school suspension also requires a babysitter, whereas given enough OSS, a kid will fall far enough behind in their work that they get moved to an alternative school or drop out - either way they're off your books.
 
2013-03-18 07:26:04 PM
I teach in one of the largest, yet most troubled school districts in the country (Prince George's County, Maryland). Here, suspension is given out freely, quite often because the students who deserve it are a continuous disruption to the learning environment. If a child has no purpose but to come to class and be a major disruption to the learning environment, they've got to go. Part of the problem lies in the lack of consequences that comes with suspension. The students are still allowed to make up the work they've missed when they're suspended. Essentially, they know they can do whatever they want to, get sent home, and just do the work at home. For them, there is no consequence, so the cycle continues. They continue to come, do whatever nonsense they want (everything under the sun--you name it, it happens at my school), and face no more consequence than being yelled at by an administrator who will then hound and harass their teachers to make sure the kid gets their work. Failure needs to be an option. They live under the unrealistic idea that their are no consequences to negative behavior in life. Most of my "bad" students who get suspended quite often and fail my freshmen English class come back and thank me for not letting them slide by like the system wants me to. The majority that fail my class freshmen year due to high rates of suspensions go on to learn their lesson. But I still have colleagues who will pass them even when they've done nothing to prove they've learned anything, and so again, the cycle continues, until someone kicks them in the rear and gets them to realize they can't do whatever they want and still get what they want. The system is as bad as an enabling parent. Which is sad, because most of them have enabling parents, which is why they're the way they are in the first place.
 
2013-03-18 07:26:53 PM

DON.MAC: The punishment that worked in Catholic  school was the paddle. If it was serious, they brought out the "Board of Education". .


Gotta see The Penguin.
s15.postimage.org
Memories.
 
2013-03-18 07:28:34 PM
My last year of high school, showing up late meant that you got sent to in-school suspension for the class you were missing.  I'm sure this sounded great in theory, keeping students from coming in late and all, but in practice, you still came in late while the beleaguered teacher was forced to stop what they were doing and write you a hall pass to go to the "holding cell".

They probably still have this system in place.

Personally, I never got any kind of suspension or a detention because I didn't want to have to answer for farking up my parents' carefully planned scheduling.  The yelling / punishment wouldn't be the worst of it.
 
2013-03-18 07:28:49 PM

Quaker: Same with mine 13 years ago. But we still had out of school suspension as well, which for some reason was considered the more severe punishment by the administration. I was a bit jealous of friends who were suspended out of school and whose parents worked during the day.


We had that as well, out of school being considered more severe.
Nobody in my circle of friends had it, that I recall. And I was the only one who ever managed to get an in school.
 
2013-03-18 07:31:14 PM
How the hell did this get greenlit?
 
2013-03-18 07:31:50 PM
Very true.  I would try to get suspended as I saw it as a 3-day vacation.
 
2013-03-18 07:32:27 PM
Same reason we punish murderers by killing them....
 
2013-03-18 07:33:06 PM

bhcompy: 2) The real point of suspension isn't the day-of punishment, it's the mark on your record that goes with you forever


Really? Forever? Don't you mean until the end of that school year? If you were a truly unruly student that stuff might follow you until you graduate but that's about it.
 
2013-03-18 07:35:56 PM

melewen: Once there was a time that suspension meant a day home with a parent who would actually enact additional punishment....


Well as no parents can be home to watch them they spend all time watching tv and goofing off.  Which is pretty nice.
 
2013-03-18 07:36:38 PM
The only suspension worth a damn...
i.ytimg.com

/well, that was one of the odder Google Image Search results I've ever had the displeasure of scanning through
//rule 34:  Alive and well
 
2013-03-18 07:37:26 PM
 
2013-03-18 07:38:18 PM

PsiChick: //It doesn't work, TFA demonstrated that,


No it didn't. It might certainly be the case that suspension is ineffective, but the "evidence" put forward in the article is some of the worst data analysis I've seen in a while.

the evidence FTFA:
A 2011 study showed that Texas students who were suspended or expelled at least once during middle school and high school averaged four such disciplinary actions during their academic careers. Fourteen percent of them were suspended 11 times or more. Suspensions don't even seem to benefit the school as a whole.

There is no comparison to disciplinary action in schools with different forms of punishment with which to compare whether disciplinary actions occur more or less with no punishment or with different punishment, so the numbers themselves are worthless as evidence of anything.

In recent years, while Baltimore city schools have dramatically reduced suspensions, the dropout rate has been cut nearly in half.

This could have the implied correlation exactly wrong, and in fact both the increase in graduation rate and decrease in suspensions could be entirely linked to either a) improved economic/community conditions, or b) better teachers. Good students with stable home lives both graduate more often and get suspended less, which, again, has nothing to do with the efficacy of suspension as a punishment.

A number of studies showed that minority children, students with low grades, and the poor are suspended disproportionately-a fact that remains true today.

This all sounds like it correlates to being poor. Minorities are still disproportionately poor today, children from low income households generally have parents low education backgrounds, so they can't supplement children's development at home, poor households also are disproportionately single parent households or parents who work extreme hours so they don't have time for reviewing their children's homework, meaning children from poor households also have disproportionately low grades. Again, none of this has any bearing on whether or not suspension is an effective form of punishment.

I'm all for doing proper research, but these data are not convincing at all.

/sorry, didn't mean to pick on you, I would have pointed it out anyway, you just gave me something to respond to.
 
2013-03-18 07:39:34 PM
Same question as why do cops gets suspended with pay, why do billionaire athletes get suspended from playing just to relax in their mansion, etc.
 
2013-03-18 07:39:48 PM

ReapTheChaos: bhcompy: 2) The real point of suspension isn't the day-of punishment, it's the mark on your record that goes with you forever

Really? Forever? Don't you mean until the end of that school year? If you were a truly unruly student that stuff might follow you until you graduate but that's about it.


I was accepted by Harvard, but then on the first day of classes I got called to the admissions office.  Turns out my high school had sent over my "official" transcripts, including the time I was suspended for calling Mandy Jones a 'classless twat' on a class trip.  They informed me they were sorry, but they couldn't allow me to attend classes at Harvard and I'd have to go to another school.

/Long story short, I flunked out of community college and now suck dick behind the 76 station for money.  All because of my "permanent record" as a child.
 
2013-03-18 07:40:52 PM

Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.


Wasn't that called "detention"?
 
2013-03-18 07:41:46 PM
I know someone who is a teacher and a hardcore Leftie and he's been asking this question for 20 years.

He says that suspending kids who want to be suspended defeats suspension as an act of punishment.
 
2013-03-18 07:41:49 PM

iheartscotch: Perhaps, a new punishment system should be devised.

Sex = 15 hours "volunteering" to take care of at least 10, 2 year olds.

Fighting = 10 hours in the blocks

Drugs = have to assist in the anti-drug thingys all year

Bullying = 15 hours of wearing a frilly pink dress for guys; 15 hours wearing painfully hideous clothes for girls.

Interrupting class = hog tied with duct tape and left for the duration of class.

/ to be continued


Leave your pedo fantasies of child sex, drugs, and cross dressing in your skull and off the internets.
 
2013-03-18 07:42:23 PM

doglover: Because it's illegal to cane children into submission like the Victorians would.


We should rectify that.
 
2013-03-18 07:43:03 PM

DON.MAC: My sister was suspended for a week for wearing a t-shirt with a duck on it and my parents let her go with friends to the Caribbean for a week as "punishment".

The duck ban was started after the German club had some "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil " t-shirts printed with ducks rather than monkeys and people had been making quacking sounds behind the principal for a while.

The punishment that worked in Catholic  school was the paddle. If it was serious, they brought out the "Board of Education".  For some minor issues there was detention with the worst being forced to watch a clock for an hour.


images2.wikia.nocookie.net

Has a chance of scoring a Critical Hit.
 
2013-03-18 07:44:12 PM

iheartscotch: Sex = 15 hours "volunteering" to take care of at least 10, 2 year olds.


Is this for the students or the teachers they bang?
 
2013-03-18 07:46:03 PM
Suspension benefits the students still in class, and as such should be used only for those who were actually doing something that disrupts class (not chewing gum).

We just lost a wonderful family at our school (two well-behaved, smart kids, and a mom who volunteered for anything all day long) because the little bastidge who's been tormenting the older child in the family mercilessly since kindergarten (now in grade 4) has yet to be suspended for any of the crazy-evil shiat he pulls. More has been done to appease the bastidge's overly hostile family members than has been done to protect any of his victims.

I don't care if they sit at home playing video games, as long as I can productively work with the other 30 kids while they're gone.
 
2013-03-18 07:46:14 PM
www.nndb.com

And my wife sent me to my room...which is where I wanted to go in the first place!
 
2013-03-18 07:47:34 PM

ShawnDoc: ReapTheChaos: bhcompy: 2) The real point of suspension isn't the day-of punishment, it's the mark on your record that goes with you forever

Really? Forever? Don't you mean until the end of that school year? If you were a truly unruly student that stuff might follow you until you graduate but that's about it.

I was accepted by Harvard, but then on the first day of classes I got called to the admissions office.  Turns out my high school had sent over my "official" transcripts, including the time I was suspended for calling Mandy Jones a 'classless twat' on a class trip.  They informed me they were sorry, but they couldn't allow me to attend classes at Harvard and I'd have to go to another school.

/Long story short, I flunked out of community college and now suck dick behind the 76 station for money.  All because of my "permanent record" as a child.


Which 76 station and how much?
 
2013-03-18 07:48:01 PM
I got in trou
 
2013-03-18 07:48:23 PM

nmrsnr: /sorry, didn't mean to pick on you, I would have pointed it out anyway, you just gave me something to respond to.


That's fine. I'm cooking right now, so I didn't check it very thoroughly, and you raise good points. I would say, though, that poor students are more likely to get punished  for the same crimes as the other students because of social factors--parents who live in a poor neighborhood or were poor tend to teach different social skills to children, which can translate to coming off as 'rude' or 'defiant'. So that's always a fun factor to throw in.
 
2013-03-18 07:48:41 PM

SilentStrider: Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.

now?
My high school had that 20 years ago.
I resolved never go get sent back there after the first time, because I didn't think I could take that much boredom again.


Yea, we had it ten years ago, but we were allowed schoolwork/homework to do (and it's easy enough to fake doing schoolwork. I LOVED going to ISS, because any bullying or inane chatter was taken care of straightaway.

/was sent to ISS only a couple times, suspended a lot more
//Zero tolerance only applies if the school doesn't like you/your parents
///Never to PTA parent's kids!
 
2013-03-18 07:49:33 PM

logictwisted: At friend's school, they only suspend students out of school when they know the parents well enough to know they'll have consequences at home. If not, it's in-school and that includes cleaning the cafeteria, the windows, and (with parental permission) the bathrooms when the student isn't working on school work. He says they've actually had parents bring their kids in before school on out of school suspension days or on Saturday mornings to clean the bathrooms to make up for their infractions.


How has the Custodian's Union not complained about this?

My schools used to have garbage picking as a punishment, but that stopped when the janitors complained it was taking work away from them.
 
2013-03-18 07:50:17 PM

theguyyousaw: I got in trou


...ble plotting the demise of my bully.

/Dropped out in 8th grade, can't say I'm worse off.
 
2013-03-18 07:50:21 PM

hiker9999: doglover: Because it's illegal to cane children into submission like the Victorians would.

We should rectify that.


I strongly disagree. They were pretty over the top.

A little buttocks whippin' with a paddle is a good thing that builds character. But caning? That's over the top and should be limited to actual criminals.
 
2013-03-18 07:50:24 PM

bhcompy: The real point of suspension isn't the day-of punishment, it's the mark on your record that goes with you forever


You actually believed that shiat?  Should I be concerned about losing the job that I've had for 15 years if my Supervisor wants to contact my high school on the other side of the country and find out all the things I did in high school, 25 years ago?
 
2013-03-18 07:54:47 PM

indarwinsshadow: How the hell did this get greenlit?


In-Fark Punishment from the Mods.
 
2013-03-18 07:58:47 PM

doglover: Because it's illegal to cane children into submission like the Victorians would.


What I stopped by to say.

/Product of boarding school system where caning was encouraged.
 
2013-03-18 08:00:30 PM

DON.MAC: The punishment that worked in Catholic school was the paddle.


What actually works is teaching people what behavior is expected of them and training them to meet those expectations. Punishment can certainly be part of the solution -- deterrents are not a bad plan -- but without training to correct the underlying problem it will do little to improve future behavior. As a general rule, punishments only work when someone already understands what they plan to do is wrong, and that they have alternative courses of action available to them -- threatening to cut off someone's hand for stealing will do little to deter a thief that does not understand that their actions constitute a crime, or a thief who sees their crime as the only way to survive.

It's also worth questioning why we don't hit adults who misbehave -- in the military, for example -- if hitting people is such an effective way to improve their behavior.
 
2013-03-18 08:01:02 PM

red5ish: Could it be that the schools want the parents to get involved in adjusting little snowflake's behavior?


Exactly. The earlier you start training kids to bottle up their emotions, the better.
 
2013-03-18 08:02:03 PM

buckeyebrain: bhcompy: The real point of suspension isn't the day-of punishment, it's the mark on your record that goes with you forever

You actually believed that shiat?  Should I be concerned about losing the job that I've had for 15 years if my Supervisor wants to contact my high school on the other side of the country and find out all the things I did in high school, 25 years ago?


roguebarristers.typepad.com
 
2013-03-18 08:03:53 PM
Suspension is punishment for the parent, who in turn punishes the student.
 
2013-03-18 08:04:19 PM
I got suspended once for making little rockets out of aluminum foil and matches, and showing them off at school. I was like 8 years old. Nothing like a flying ball of molten aluminum to get the teachers attention. And the principal. And my dad.

FYI, the specific impulse of match compound is terrible.
 
2013-03-18 08:04:25 PM

doglover: But caning? That's over the top and should be limited to actual criminals.


and consensual adults.
 
2013-03-18 08:04:27 PM

doglover: hiker9999: doglover: Because it's illegal to cane children into submission like the Victorians would.

We should rectify that.

I strongly disagree. They were pretty over the top.

A little buttocks whippin' with a paddle is a good thing that builds character. But caning? That's over the top and should be limited to actual criminals.


Kids at my elementary school in Australia talking about caning as if it was a real possibility, but I don't know of anyone who actually got it.  It might have been a boogeyman punishment.  This was in the 80s.
 
2013-03-18 08:04:36 PM

teto85: Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.

A few districts have suspension schools.  You go to another school and do your homework and classwork and the penalty for any rule violation is more suspension.

Schools in some states lose money if a student is absent.


Been there, done that. Mid 1990's. It was amazing how much school work you could get through if you weren't distracted by things like slowing down for the other kids.
 
2013-03-18 08:07:35 PM
Oh and after I dropped out the real learning began!!!

I hosted goldeneye tournaments, smoked weed all day, tried to find people to buy me cigs...

Even then, I worked a lot of under the table construction jobs at 14 and on. As soon as I turned 16 I was working 2 jobs and partying my head off!!

/
 
2013-03-18 08:09:19 PM

fredklein: ...so the parents have to stay home from work to watch them, and beat them senseless for being little bratsopen a dialog to communicate with the little angels?


Exactly, suspensions punish the parents, which will punish the children as they see fit in return. Win-win for the school.

(Except for latchkey kids who'd just play vidya games all day, like me.)

What's hilarious is when suspension is a punishment for truancy. The parent obviously doesn't care, you're just giving the kid school-sanctioned days off at that point.
 
2013-03-18 08:11:10 PM

hiker9999: We should rectify that.


Exactly.

And we should allow managers at every workplace to cane employees who misbehave/underproduce/etc. Production would skyrocket and our economy would be saved!
 
2013-03-18 08:11:38 PM

theguyyousaw: /Dropped out in 8th grade, can't say I'm worse off.


I empathize with your difficulty. It must be frustrating not to be able to express yourself for lack of education.
/just kidding of course
 
2013-03-18 08:12:21 PM

foxyshadis: Except for latchkey kids who'd just play vidya games all day, like me.


Like most kids today. Dual-parent single-income families are a thing of the past. Structuring school around that assumption is ridiculous.
 
2013-03-18 08:13:17 PM
i820.photobucket.com

Problem solved.
 
2013-03-18 08:16:10 PM

profplump: DON.MAC: The punishment that worked in Catholic school was the paddle.

What actually works is teaching people what behavior is expected of them and training them to meet those expectations. Punishment can certainly be part of the solution -- deterrents are not a bad plan -- but without training to correct the underlying problem it will do little to improve future behavior. As a general rule, punishments only work when someone already understands what they plan to do is wrong, and that they have alternative courses of action available to them -- threatening to cut off someone's hand for stealing will do little to deter a thief that does not understand that their actions constitute a crime, or a thief who sees their crime as the only way to survive.

It's also worth questioning why we don't hit adults who misbehave -- in the military, for example -- if hitting people is such an effective way to improve their behavior.


As a 200 pound gym-user I approve of this.
 
2013-03-18 08:23:57 PM

indarwinsshadow: How the hell did this get greenlit?


Fark Unity Thread. EVERYONE gets to wonder, how the hell did this get greenlit.

HTHDTGGL?
 
2013-03-18 08:24:24 PM

vudukungfu: doglover: But caning? That's over the top and should be limited to actual criminals.

and consensual adults.


Absolutely not consensual. If you do a crime severe enough, lack of consent should not spare you a harsh punishment. And a new, sterile rattan stick is a hell of a lot cheaper than even a day of incarceration. I'm all for corporal punishment for crimes. It's better for society. It's nice if criminals disagree and would prefer to sit in jail. The less they like the punishment, the more chances they'll take steps to avoid it.

But you can't cane kids. They're too small and emotionally fragile.
 
2013-03-18 08:24:33 PM
I got suspended once.  The worst part about the suspension, I couldn't leave school until a parent picked me up.  My mom waited at home for 20 minutes before leaving to pick me up.  She didn't calm down either in those 20 minutes.  She was calm just long enough to check me out of school.  Followed by a quick car ride of her yelling at me, home to yell, sent to my room where I was to wait for my dad to come home, more yelling and grounded.  Suspension isn't really that fun your parents have a laundry list of chores for you to do while you're suspended, followed by a week where I have to play catch up with my school work after school.
 
2013-03-18 08:26:18 PM
My oldest is a real piece of work when it comes to school. The kid is a genius but has absolutely
zero ambition. He goes to school because I drag his ass out of bed @ 5:30 every morning. He
gets on the bus, goes to class and does nothing. Sometimes he sleeps, sometimes he goofs off.

They used to suspend him out of school for it until I put my foot down. I told the school admins
that he *wanted* to be sent home and that suspending him out of school did nothing but give him
what he wanted. So they started sending him to in-school suspension. He stopped falling asleep
in class after that.
 
2013-03-18 08:29:43 PM

PsiChick: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Always wondered about that myself. I came to the conclusion that school isn't there for the children, it's to give a job to people who can't get a real job. When you make their job difficult you got to go.

You've never actually confronted school discipline as even a thought exercise, have you.

/Hint: They aren't there for school. They're there for their  friends--staying home from school  sounds fun, right up until the kids discover that video games are only so interesting when no one's online. Also, there's the humiliation aspect.
//It doesn't work, TFA demonstrated that, but it is an actual punishment, and the 'those who can't do teach herpa derp' idea is why Finland has the best education system in the world and America doesn't.


Video games? What kind of parent would let their kid sit at home playing video games if they're suspended? My kid isn't the age where he'd get suspended just yet, but if I get a call from the school that he'd been suspended I explain to my boss what happened and go pick that boy up from school, bring him home and have him gather up the power cables for his game systems and computer and throw them in my trunk and give him a list of chores to get done.
 
2013-03-18 08:30:31 PM

johnnieconnie: "....when all the little bastards want to do..."

Subby must be a bitter, overworked, underpaid, public school teacher.

/There,there, summer will be here soon


Nah.. they would be referring to the shiatbag assistant principals who dont know how to adminster anything and someone only approved them because they needed to get X number of a specific minority in administration.
 
2013-03-18 08:32:42 PM
My school had a simple solution to this. You were suspended within the building in a small classroom. You effectively got days of detention instead of going home.

Nobody like being suspended.
 
2013-03-18 08:33:21 PM

PsiChick: /Hint: They aren't there for school. They're there for their  friends--staying home from school  sounds fun, right up until the kids discover that video games are only so interesting when no one's online


That is why you log in the the South Korean server......
 
2013-03-18 08:33:54 PM

Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.


Now?  I had that in the eighties.   AND I had to do tons of work, lots and lots and lots of work.
 
2013-03-18 08:34:10 PM
I'm an actual real live pediatric behavior therapist and I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

Suspension works fine for that smallish subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a punishment. These would be the kids who care about their grades and seeing their friends and participating in band, choir, clubs, teams, etc.

Suspension is a terrible idea for that rather larger subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a reward. These would be the kids who don't like being in school or even in class and who don't necessarily have a lot of friends. Even "in-school suspension" functions as an escape from the classroom for these kids. It tends to make them worse because then they learn that they can tantrum their way out of class.

Bottom line: Nothing is a punishment, or a reward, unless it FUNCTIONS that way. It doesn't farking matter what the consequence LOOKS like. All that matters is what it means to the person it happens to.

I have had this exact conversation with teachers, deans, and principals many, many more times than I should have had it. These people are often hardworking, dedicated, and well-meaning, but all to often have no clue how to change behavior.
 
2013-03-18 08:34:26 PM

weasil: Suspension benefits the students still in class, and as such should be used only for those who were actually doing something that disrupts class (not chewing gum).

We just lost a wonderful family at our school (two well-behaved, smart kids, and a mom who volunteered for anything all day long) because the little bastidge who's been tormenting the older child in the family mercilessly since kindergarten (now in grade 4) has yet to be suspended for any of the crazy-evil shiat he pulls. More has been done to appease the bastidge's overly hostile family members than has been done to protect any of his victims.

I don't care if they sit at home playing video games, as long as I can productively work with the other 30 kids while they're gone.



i.imgur.com


I don't envy you your job, but I admire the hell out of you for doing it.
 
2013-03-18 08:36:12 PM

digitalrain: My oldest is a real piece of work when it comes to school. The kid is a genius but has absolutely
zero ambition. He goes to school because I drag his ass out of bed @ 5:30 every morning. He
gets on the bus, goes to class and does nothing. Sometimes he sleeps, sometimes he goofs off.


How far away from school do you live that it requires getting up before dawn?
 
2013-03-18 08:36:35 PM

profplump: Dual-parent single-income families are a thing of the past.


Thanks Obama!
 
2013-03-18 08:38:26 PM

buckeyebrain: bhcompy: The real point of suspension isn't the day-of punishment, it's the mark on your record that goes with you forever

You actually believed that shiat?  Should I be concerned about losing the job that I've had for 15 years if my Supervisor wants to contact my high school on the other side of the country and find out all the things I did in high school, 25 years ago?


Someone took forever a little seriously

/forever in school terms in college admissions
 
2013-03-18 08:38:39 PM

PsychoTherapist: I'm an actual real live pediatric behavior therapist and I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

Suspension works fine for that smallish subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a punishment. These would be the kids who care about their grades and seeing their friends and participating in band, choir, clubs, teams, etc.

Suspension is a terrible idea for that rather larger subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a reward. These would be the kids who don't like being in school or even in class and who don't necessarily have a lot of friends. Even "in-school suspension" functions as an escape from the classroom for these kids. It tends to make them worse because then they learn that they can tantrum their way out of class.

Bottom line: Nothing is a punishment, or a reward, unless it FUNCTIONS that way. It doesn't farking matter what the consequence LOOKS like. All that matters is what it means to the person it happens to.

I have had this exact conversation with teachers, deans, and principals many, many more times than I should have had it. These people are often hardworking, dedicated, and well-meaning, but all to often have no clue how to change behavior.


These are good points as well. In-school suspension may work, but only if you don't end up with one room full of all the worst kids in school. Maybe put them all in cubbies facing the walls, without cell phones or other forms of preferred distraction, and have someone in the room who's more a guard than a teacher - someone they won't fark with.
 
2013-03-18 08:38:47 PM

SilentStrider: Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.

now?
My high school had that 20 years ago.
I resolved never go get sent back there after the first time, because I didn't think I could take that much boredom again.


We also had this in High School 20 years ago.

I never got suspended or in-school suspension.

I got afterschool detention, once.  That was for punching a bully who had been taunting me and teasing me for most of a semester.  Normally it would have been in-school suspension for fighting, but I was known as a honors student with an otherwise flawless record, and he was a goon who was constantly in trouble and fighting, so the Principal went easy on me when I got fed up with his crap and gave me the lightest slap-on-the-wrist punishment he could.
 
2013-03-18 08:38:56 PM

Bondith: digitalrain: My oldest is a real piece of work when it comes to school. The kid is a genius but has absolutely
zero ambition. He goes to school because I drag his ass out of bed @ 5:30 every morning. He
gets on the bus, goes to class and does nothing. Sometimes he sleeps, sometimes he goofs off.

How far away from school do you live that it requires getting up before dawn?


A couple of miles. He gets up @ 5:30, leaves the house @ 6am, bus picks him up @ 6:15. First bell is @ 7:20.
 
2013-03-18 08:43:37 PM
Why do I have to pay for my neighbors sons education?  Because schooling in America is retarded
 
2013-03-18 08:44:26 PM
I loved in school suspension. I got it for missing to much school. It was perfect. Miss a lot, spend a week in iss: all the school none of the work. Rinse, repeat.

Someone should have kicked my ass though.
 
2013-03-18 08:45:16 PM
They should add a fear element to in-school suspension. Suspended students should be given an extra project to do, and their suspension lasts indefinitely until the extra project is done.  Kids just bide their time during in-school suspension.  What they dread is classwork, especially if it is classwork nobody else has to do.  Fark this having more than one kid in the same suspension area where they can communicate with each other.  Make them sit in cubicles that are tall.  Kids won't want to be there.
 
2013-03-18 08:45:18 PM

bhcompy: buckeyebrain: bhcompy: The real point of suspension isn't the day-of punishment, it's the mark on your record that goes with you forever

You actually believed that shiat?  Should I be concerned about losing the job that I've had for 15 years if my Supervisor wants to contact my high school on the other side of the country and find out all the things I did in high school, 25 years ago?

Someone took forever a little seriously

/forever in school terms in college admissions


What college actually checked on things like if you were suspended or not?

My high school transcript had no entry on it for times suspended or any other disciplinary record, simply a list of classes taken, grades and credits earned, GPA, days attended and days absent, and name, D.O.B. and SSN. . .with no distinction made between excused and unexcused absences in the attendance.

Unless they actually called and talked to somebody they'd have no way to know, and unless you were applying to some super-competitive school like M.I.T. or Harvard, I doubt they'd ever call/talk to anybody at the school in person.  Transcripts and test scores are all most places have to go on for undergraduate admissions.  Not a lot of schools want interviews, essays, and such in the modern day, much less trying to check for a disciplinary record.  It's not like getting suspended will keep you out of college, especially a community college or public university.
 
2013-03-18 08:46:08 PM

profplump: hiker9999: We should rectify that. Exactly. And we should allow managers at every workplace to cane employees who misbehave/underproduce/etc. Production would skyrocket and our economy would be saved!


As long as it's reciprical with no crime being comitted.
 
2013-03-18 08:48:14 PM

Bondith: digitalrain: My oldest is a real piece of work when it comes to school. The kid is a genius but has absolutely
zero ambition. He goes to school because I drag his ass out of bed @ 5:30 every morning. He
gets on the bus, goes to class and does nothing. Sometimes he sleeps, sometimes he goofs off.

How far away from school do you live that it requires getting up before dawn?


Not sure about him, but in my area the first class for high school starts at about 7:40ish, buses usually get there around 7:30ish.  Figure get him up at 5:30. Let him eat, we'll say 15 minutes to 5:45. Then he's gotta do the basic shiat, shower, shave. We'll go with 30 minutes for all that. 6:15. Depending on the kid, another 5-20 minutes primping, doing hair changing clothes because they can't make up their mind. We're at 6:20-6:35. So there's about an hour left. If the kid is one of the earlier ones picked up on a rural school bus route that could easily kill that hour.
 
2013-03-18 08:51:30 PM

digitalrain: My oldest is a real piece of work when it comes to school. The kid is a genius but has absolutely
zero ambition. He goes to school because I drag his ass out of bed @ 5:30 every morning. He
gets on the bus, goes to class and does nothing. Sometimes he sleeps, sometimes he goofs off.

They used to suspend him out of school for it until I put my foot down. I told the school admins
that he *wanted* to be sent home and that suspending him out of school did nothing but give him
what he wanted. So they started sending him to in-school suspension. He stopped falling asleep
in class after that.


Sorry sweetheart but little Johnny is FAR from a genius given your description of him. But you and hubby keep telling yourself that and allowing him to go all the way through school sleeping. He'll make quite an adult.
 
nbt [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 08:53:31 PM
Respite care for the tteachers.
 
2013-03-18 08:57:19 PM

PsychoTherapist: I'm an actual real live pediatric behavior therapist and I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

Suspension works fine for that smallish subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a punishment. These would be the kids who care about their grades and seeing their friends and participating in band, choir, clubs, teams, etc.

Suspension is a terrible idea for that rather larger subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a reward. These would be the kids who don't like being in school or even in class and who don't necessarily have a lot of friends. Even "in-school suspension" functions as an escape from the classroom for these kids. It tends to make them worse because then they learn that they can tantrum their way out of class.

Bottom line: Nothing is a punishment, or a reward, unless it FUNCTIONS that way. It doesn't farking matter what the consequence LOOKS like. All that matters is what it means to the person it happens to.

I have had this exact conversation with teachers, deans, and principals many, many more times than I should have had it. These people are often hardworking, dedicated, and well-meaning, but all to often have no clue how to change behavior.


So what do you suggest?
 
2013-03-18 08:57:36 PM

gruntmints: I teach in one of the largest, yet most troubled school districts in the country (Prince George's County, Maryland). Here, suspension is given out freely, quite often because the students who deserve it are a continuous disruption to the learning environment. If a child has no purpose but to come to class and be a major disruption to the learning environment, they've got to go. Part of the problem lies in the lack of consequences that comes with suspension. The students are still allowed to make up the work they've missed when they're suspended. Essentially, they know they can do whatever they want to, get sent home, and just do the work at home. For them, there is no consequence, so the cycle continues. They continue to come, do whatever nonsense they want (everything under the sun--you name it, it happens at my school), and face no more consequence than being yelled at by an administrator who will then hound and harass their teachers to make sure the kid gets their work. Failure needs to be an option. They live under the unrealistic idea that their are no consequences to negative behavior in life. Most of my "bad" students who get suspended quite often and fail my freshmen English class come back and thank me for not letting them slide by like the system wants me to. The majority that fail my class freshmen year due to high rates of suspensions go on to learn their lesson. But I still have colleagues who will pass them even when they've done nothing to prove they've learned anything, and so again, the cycle continues, until someone kicks them in the rear and gets them to realize they can't do whatever they want and still get what they want. The system is as bad as an enabling parent. Which is sad, because most of them have enabling parents, which is why they're the way they are in the first place.


THIS...SO MUCH THIS.

I've been teaching for 11 years in an urban low-income school, and the amount of shiat it takes to actually EARN a suspension is ridiculous.  The suspension isn't so much about teaching the asshat kid a lesson, as it is about allowing the rest of the class a few days without their negative influence in the classroom.  Case in point, one of my loudest & most annoying students was suspended today, and a class period that is usually loud & off task was magically transformed into a hard-working and calm room.  This info has been stored away, and I will not hesitate to request 2-day suspensions of said student in the future (max we can request & automatically be granted).

It's not about correcting his behavior - he has behavior consultants for that.  It's about allowing the rest of the class to perform.

That said, we used to have a small cluster of portable classrooms, fenced off from the rest of the campus, where students with 0.0 GPA and/or behavior problems attended all their classes and ate their lunch.  This was paid for by grant funding, and the students sent into it had to earn their way back into general population.  The program lasted for 2 years, during which time the rest of the students on campus were allowed to learn & enjoy free of the asshole brigade.  What a difference that made.  Sadly the grant ran out.  We called it the 'gated community.'
 
2013-03-18 09:02:32 PM
100 Watt Walrus:
I don't envy you your job, but I admire the hell out of you for doing it.

Thanks, it's nice to hear it every so often.
 
2013-03-18 09:08:51 PM
Because every minute they spend disciplining your brat is a minute not spent helping 20 other kids who are ready to learn.
 
2013-03-18 09:13:55 PM

Kenny B: profplump: Dual-parent single-income families are a thing of the past.

Thanks Obama Reagan!


FTFY
 
2013-03-18 09:15:52 PM

profplump: DON.MAC: The punishment that worked in Catholic school was the paddle.

What actually works is teaching people what behavior is expected of them and training them to meet those expectations. Punishment can certainly be part of the solution -- deterrents are not a bad plan -- but without training to correct the underlying problem it will do little to improve future behavior. As a general rule, punishments only work when someone already understands what they plan to do is wrong, and that they have alternative courses of action available to them -- threatening to cut off someone's hand for stealing will do little to deter a thief that does not understand that their actions constitute a crime, or a thief who sees their crime as the only way to survive.

It's also worth questioning why we don't hit adults who misbehave -- in the military, for example -- if hitting people is such an effective way to improve their behavior.


There are places in the world that do hit adults and some of them have a much lower crime rate than many of the places that don't.
 
2013-03-18 09:15:53 PM

Caffandtranqs: PsychoTherapist: I'm an actual real live pediatric behavior therapist and I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

Suspension works fine for that smallish subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a punishment. These would be the kids who care about their grades and seeing their friends and participating in band, choir, clubs, teams, etc.

Suspension is a terrible idea for that rather larger subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a reward. These would be the kids who don't like being in school or even in class and who don't necessarily have a lot of friends. Even "in-school suspension" functions as an escape from the classroom for these kids. It tends to make them worse because then they learn that they can tantrum their way out of class.

Bottom line: Nothing is a punishment, or a reward, unless it FUNCTIONS that way. It doesn't farking matter what the consequence LOOKS like. All that matters is what it means to the person it happens to.

I have had this exact conversation with teachers, deans, and principals many, many more times than I should have had it. These people are often hardworking, dedicated, and well-meaning, but all to often have no clue how to change behavior.

So what do you suggest?


Seriously, I'd like to know your suggestion.  My mother works in a school.  You offered up your expertise on how kids think, but no solution to them problem.
 
2013-03-18 09:18:05 PM

SubBass49: I've been teaching for 11 years in an urban low-income school, and the amount of shiat it takes to actually EARN a suspension is ridiculous. The suspension isn't so much about teaching the asshat kid a lesson, as it is about allowing the rest of the class a few days without their negative influence in the classroom. Case in point, one of my loudest & most annoying students was suspended today, and a class period that is usually loud & off task was magically transformed into a hard-working and calm room. This info has been stored away, and I will not hesitate to request 2-day suspensions of said student in the future (max we can request & automatically be granted).


The other students are afraid, dear leader. Should make for good citizens.

Good job.
 
2013-03-18 09:20:20 PM

wildcardjack: teto85: Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.

A few districts have suspension schools.  You go to another school and do your homework and classwork and the penalty for any rule violation is more suspension.

Schools in some states lose money if a student is absent.

Been there, done that. Mid 1990's. It was amazing how much school work you could get through if you weren't distracted by things like slowing down for the other kids.


Yeah, I remember getting ISS on purpose a few times when late on projects because you could either read or do homework. You could get 2 ISS's per semesters (we had 2) or you get a real suspension so you had to be careful

/Had ISS in the early 90's when I was there, but judging by the wall art they had they had it as far back as the 1970's.
 
2013-03-18 09:23:09 PM

Lady Indica: When I was in high school, I was suspended for ditching school. My mother went bonkers on what an asinine punishment that was, so we all got community service hours to do too. (Catholic school).

I still maintained my grades, it was just so fricken boring.


I got suspended for excessive absences, I had been absent more days than I had been present.  Even then I wondered about the idea that punishing me for not gong to class was forbidding me from going to class. Yes, I still kept my grades up by doing the homework and taking the tests.

Yes, class was so very boring. I pick things up pretty quickly. It's very seldom that I need things explained to me more than twice. Sitting in class while the teachers discuss the same things over and over for a week or more, to get it through some of the thicker skulls, was almost unbearable.
 
2013-03-18 09:33:33 PM

Philbb: Yes, class was so very boring. I pick things up pretty quickly. It's very seldom that I need things explained to me more than twice. Sitting in class while the teachers discuss the same things over and over for a week or more, to get it through some of the thicker skulls, was almost unbearable.




This.
 
2013-03-18 09:42:21 PM

weasil: Suspension benefits the students still in class, and as such should be used only for those who were actually doing something that disrupts class (not chewing gum).


That doesn't explain the one time I was suspended for three days. I'd dropped a class a few days into the semester and due to a clerical error the study hall teacher was never instructed to add me to the roster. So for about 2 months I had a free period which I used to educate myself in the library, the computer lab, or sometimes walk to a nearby place for an early lunch.

Supposedly I was being punished for cutting something like 35 classes. The assistant principal wasn't amused when I asked him to show me the record of those absences. His dimwitted idea was to make me actually miss three days of classes because I had missed... none.
 
2013-03-18 10:01:43 PM
My folks are both teachers. Schools in this part of the world give out of school suspensions as a last resort. In school suspensions  are the new hawtness. Kids act up, they're sent to a room with isolated desks facing the walls. All the kids are allowed to do is homework and reading. They can't talk, and each desk has partitions on both sides so they cannot see one another. You even have to eat your lunch in isolation and in silence. You stay in ISS until your time is up, AND you've correctly completed ALL of your assigned work, and your parent/guardian has come in to have a conference with the principal and with the offending child present.

If you get kicked out of ISS you have to go to a different school that is run almost like a prison. Once there you stay there for the rest of the school year.

This system usually works fairly well. Keeps repeat offenders to a minimum.
 
2013-03-18 10:04:08 PM
Suspension was ineffective in the '80s. My high school went to in-school suspension and they saw a decrease in suspensions. They put them on display in a small windowed room next to the main lobby of the school.
 
2013-03-18 10:07:58 PM

AndreMA: weasil: Suspension benefits the students still in class, and as such should be used only for those who were actually doing something that disrupts class (not chewing gum).

That doesn't explain the one time I was suspended for three days. I'd dropped a class a few days into the semester and due to a clerical error the study hall teacher was never instructed to add me to the roster. So for about 2 months I had a free period which I used to educate myself in the library, the computer lab, or sometimes walk to a nearby place for an early lunch.

Supposedly I was being punished for cutting something like 35 classes. The assistant principal wasn't amused when I asked him to show me the record of those absences. His dimwitted idea was to make me actually miss three days of classes because I had missed... none.


I wasn't making any attempt to explain the mis-uses of suspension. You should not have been suspended, the clerk should have been suspended.

/Not sure why you chose my post for your response, since I was already in favor of your position.
 
2013-03-18 10:14:55 PM

bmr68: Suspension was ineffective in the '80s. My high school went to in-school suspension and they saw a decrease in suspensions. They put them on display in a small windowed room next to the main lobby of the school.




That was so you know who to get drugs from.
 
2013-03-18 10:16:52 PM

StoPPeRmobile: SubBass49: I've been teaching for 11 years in an urban low-income school, and the amount of shiat it takes to actually EARN a suspension is ridiculous. The suspension isn't so much about teaching the asshat kid a lesson, as it is about allowing the rest of the class a few days without their negative influence in the classroom. Case in point, one of my loudest & most annoying students was suspended today, and a class period that is usually loud & off task was magically transformed into a hard-working and calm room. This info has been stored away, and I will not hesitate to request 2-day suspensions of said student in the future (max we can request & automatically be granted).

The other students are afraid, dear leader. Should make for good citizens.

Good job.


i.qkme.me
 
2013-03-18 10:18:00 PM
Replace Suspensions with "The Chokey"?

alyssaapurvis.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-03-18 10:32:37 PM
I was at a conference for Dean's and Assistant Principals last week. In a conversation about school discipline, one dean stood up and said that he needed more help because he'd had to expel 83 of the school's 800 students. No lie. He was  bragging about it. I don't care if your school is in Attica prison, expelling ten percent of your student body is ridiculous.

My school has expelled  three students in the last seven years and suspended less than ten. We don't see the discipline problems that our surrounding schools do because we have a totally different approach to education than the see a problem and punish kids, zero tolerance, no excuses public schools. Works great, too.

//Charter school.
 
2013-03-18 10:32:37 PM
If a kid is being a little shiat in my classroom and is not responding to the lower level sanctions I can give out, then I see it as my first responsibility is to get that little shiat the fark out of my classroom ASAP so he is no longer stopping me from teaching the rest of the class.

Of course, thanks to the procedures I am forced to follow (including the BS paperwork I am required to fill out right then and there in the middle of the already disrupted and increasingly rowdy class) by the point the student is gone he has already ruined AT LEAST half of the class instruction time for that day.

What happens to him once he is out of my classroom is a pretty distant secondary concern to me.  I think ISS is far better than sending him home, but to be honest I just don't care that much, so long as I get at least a few days before the little shiat comes back to (usually) cause more trouble.

In an idea situation, the administration would trust the teacher enough so I could be able to point to a disruptive student and truthfully say "You!  Get the Fark out of my classroom, NOW, or I will call the resource officer and have your sorry ass arrested for trespassing."

Then I would be allowed to fill out the relevant forms documenting the incident during my planning period or at the end of that day.  From there, the kid would banished from the class until there is a meeting (scheduled at MY convenience) among me, the kid, the kid's mom/dad/guardian, and a vice principal where it's up to the kid and parent to convince me the little shiat is willing to behave from then on.

A proper teacher, of course, would only use that power in circumstances of extreme disruption (fighting, cussing out the teacher, etc.) or  AFTER said kid has gotten several warnings and doesn't respond to things like the prospect of detention, extra work, or calling parents.

=============================

I have several kids in my classes who just won't shut the fark up and behave. They are effectively denying the rest of class their right to a proper education, and It's often too hard and too time consuming to get them removed.

Luckily, they tend to get themselves removed by cutting too many classes and/or getting themselves arrested.  But it takes too damn long and they do MASSIVE damage to the class in the meantime.

I sure hope I can get back to teaching juniors/seniors next school year.  By the junior and senior years nearly all of the serious farkups and students who just won't do the work have weeded themselves out.  There's still shiatloads of apathy for me to try to overcome, but at least they're quiet about it, so it isn't nearly as damaging to the class or stressful to me.
 
2013-03-18 10:32:41 PM

jmr61: digitalrain: My oldest is a real piece of work when it comes to school. The kid is a genius but has absolutely
zero ambition. He goes to school because I drag his ass out of bed @ 5:30 every morning. He
gets on the bus, goes to class and does nothing. Sometimes he sleeps, sometimes he goofs off.

They used to suspend him out of school for it until I put my foot down. I told the school admins
that he *wanted* to be sent home and that suspending him out of school did nothing but give him
what he wanted. So they started sending him to in-school suspension. He stopped falling asleep
in class after that.

Sorry sweetheart but little Johnny is FAR from a genius given your description of him. But you and hubby keep telling yourself that and allowing him to go all the way through school sleeping. He'll make quite an adult.


The kid gets 95th+ percentile on his standardized tests, aces finals and midterms, has a 143 IQ,
so yeah, I think I have some basis for the claim. Intelligence (or lack thereof) isn't this problem.
Laziness and lack of motivation is his problem. If an assignment is something he's interested in,
he blows his teachers away with what he's capable of. If he isn't interested, you can't pull two
sentences out of him.
 
2013-03-18 10:47:49 PM

Riche: If a kid is being a little shiat in my classroom and is not responding to the lower level sanctions I can give out, then I see it as my first responsibility is to get that little shiat the fark out of my classroom ASAP so he is no longer stopping me from teaching the rest of the class.

Of course, thanks to the procedures I am forced to follow (including the BS paperwork I am required to fill out right then and there in the middle of the already disrupted and increasingly rowdy class) by the point the student is gone he has already ruined AT LEAST half of the class instruction time for that day.

What happens to him once he is out of my classroom is a pretty distant secondary concern to me.  I think ISS is far better than sending him home, but to be honest I just don't care that much, so long as I get at least a few days before the little shiat comes back to (usually) cause more trouble.

In an idea situation, the administration would trust the teacher enough so I could be able to point to a disruptive student and truthfully say "You!  Get the Fark out of my classroom, NOW, or I will call the resource officer and have your sorry ass arrested for trespassing."

Then I would be allowed to fill out the relevant forms documenting the incident during my planning period or at the end of that day.  From there, the kid would banished from the class until there is a meeting (scheduled at MY convenience) among me, the kid, the kid's mom/dad/guardian, and a vice principal where it's up to the kid and parent to convince me the little shiat is willing to behave from then on.

A proper teacher, of course, would only use that power in circumstances of extreme disruption (fighting, cussing out the teacher, etc.) or  AFTER said kid has gotten several warnings and doesn't respond to things like the prospect of detention, extra work, or calling parents.

=============================

I have several kids in my classes who just won't shut the fark up and behave. They are effectively de ...


...said every high school teacher in a low-income urban school...ever.

I feel your pain.  My classes are all mixed grade-level.  The freshmen typically make up the bulk of failures & behavior problems.  I wish I could limit enrollment in my course to 10th grade & up, but then there'd be no handy storage space for the 9th grade fark-ups.  I have what I call "furniture kids" in some of my courses...kids that attend every day to socialize, but have under a 10% in the course.  Before you Fark Education ExpertsTM all whine that I must be making the material too difficult, this is Art 1.
 
2013-03-18 10:48:00 PM

Kimothy: I was at a conference for Dean's and Assistant Principals last week. In a conversation about school discipline, one dean stood up and said that he needed more help because he'd had to expel 83 of the school's 800 students. No lie. He was  bragging about it. I don't care if your school is in Attica prison, expelling ten percent of your student body is ridiculous.

My school has expelled  three students in the last seven years and suspended less than ten. We don't see the discipline problems that our surrounding schools do because we have a totally different approach to education than the see a problem and punish kids, zero tolerance, no excuses public schools. Works great, too.

//Charter school.


I see this as a GOOD thing. Throw out the kids who don't want to be there and only cause disruptions. What good is it to force someone to be there?
 
2013-03-18 10:52:18 PM

Kimothy: I was at a conference for Dean's and Assistant Principals last week. In a conversation about school discipline, one dean stood up and said that he needed more help because he'd had to expel 83 of the school's 800 students. No lie. He was  bragging about it. I don't care if your school is in Attica prison, expelling ten percent of your student body is ridiculous.

My school has expelled  three students in the last seven years and suspended less than ten. We don't see the discipline problems that our surrounding schools do because we have a totally different approach to education than the see a problem and punish kids, zero tolerance, no excuses public schools. Works great, too.

//Charter school.


I have you listed as a favorite for a reason, though I am often suspect of how charter schools achieve their behavior goals.  I want to ask, what is the admissions process at your school?  Are families required to attend meetings or sign behavior contracts?  Are their parent volunteer requirements?  What about entrance exams and behavior-record reviews?  Just asking because that often helps to weed out the "general population" that public schools cannot legally exclude.  No snark at all...just would love to know from someone I respect.
 
2013-03-18 10:54:41 PM

SubBass49: Before you Fark Education ExpertsTM all whine that I must be making the material too difficult, this is Art 1.


You must make art not fun.  I hated art in school because the teachers took it so damn seriously when I was trying to do the assignments but feel my way around technique as well.  I could never exactly reproduce what the teacher was instructing even when I tried.  Hate art.  Hate art teachers.  Picky.  Arrogant as all hell.  Derisive.  Patronizing.

It's a life long thing with me though.  Started in 1st or 2nd grade when I wanted to paint my dog blue and the teacher got on my case because dogs aren't really blue.  Well, screw you lady, I grew up and adopted a blue dog from the pound and I still hate you.

Well, that was cathartic.
 
2013-03-18 10:55:31 PM
At least in chemistry class, a suspension is not a solution.
 
2013-03-18 10:58:38 PM

100 Watt Walrus: PsychoTherapist: I'm an actual real live pediatric behavior therapist and I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

Suspension works fine for that smallish subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a punishment. These would be the kids who care about their grades and seeing their friends and participating in band, choir, clubs, teams, etc.

Suspension is a terrible idea for that rather larger subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a reward. These would be the kids who don't like being in school or even in class and who don't necessarily have a lot of friends. Even "in-school suspension" functions as an escape from the classroom for these kids. It tends to make them worse because then they learn that they can tantrum their way out of class.

Bottom line: Nothing is a punishment, or a reward, unless it FUNCTIONS that way. It doesn't farking matter what the consequence LOOKS like. All that matters is what it means to the person it happens to.

I have had this exact conversation with teachers, deans, and principals many, many more times than I should have had it. These people are often hardworking, dedicated, and well-meaning, but all to often have no clue how to change behavior.

These are good points as well. In-school suspension may work, but only if you don't end up with one room full of all the worst kids in school. Maybe put them all in cubbies facing the walls, without cell phones or other forms of preferred distraction, and have someone in the room who's more a guard than a teacher - someone they won't fark with.


You actually describe something that we had at our school. I forgot the name of it, but each teacher had something for you to do, you could not talk, nor use any form of typing/writing material other than to do the task the teacher assigned. If you were done with the task, you sat there facing the cubicle. Lunch: you ate at the cubicle.

I did that for a couple of days, and it was no fun.
 
2013-03-18 10:59:37 PM
There was a kid in my middle school that had to wash the cafeteria trays for a while when he got caught stealing the spoons.
 
2013-03-18 11:07:48 PM

gadian: SubBass49: Before you Fark Education ExpertsTM all whine that I must be making the material too difficult, this is Art 1.

You must make art not fun.  I hated art in school because the teachers took it so damn seriously when I was trying to do the assignments but feel my way around technique as well.  I could never exactly reproduce what the teacher was instructing even when I tried.  Hate art.  Hate art teachers.  Picky.  Arrogant as all hell.  Derisive.  Patronizing.

It's a life long thing with me though.  Started in 1st or 2nd grade when I wanted to paint my dog blue and the teacher got on my case because dogs aren't really blue.  Well, screw you lady, I grew up and adopted a blue dog from the pound and I still hate you.

Well, that was cathartic.


Glad I could help.

All I ask is that kids try, and actually turn in the work.  I tell them at the start of the year, "You might not get an "A", but you'll at least pass the course."  I get kids who do nothing...all year.
 
2013-03-18 11:09:23 PM

astouffer: Kimothy: I was at a conference for Dean's and Assistant Principals last week. In a conversation about school discipline, one dean stood up and said that he needed more help because he'd had to expel 83 of the school's 800 students. No lie. He was  bragging about it. I don't care if your school is in Attica prison, expelling ten percent of your student body is ridiculous.

My school has expelled  three students in the last seven years and suspended less than ten. We don't see the discipline problems that our surrounding schools do because we have a totally different approach to education than the see a problem and punish kids, zero tolerance, no excuses public schools. Works great, too.

//Charter school.

I see this as a GOOD thing. Throw out the kids who don't want to be there and only cause disruptions. What good is it to force someone to be there?


It was a middle school. His kids are all 13 and under. Granted, it was a tough neighborhood school, so I can see some problems. But ten percent? That's crazy. There's a disconnect between classroom management, discipline, and the kids. Plenty of studies exist showing a connection between suspension, expulsion, and drop out rates, and others that show if you reduce the number of suspensions - through alternative punishments, different approaches to discipline, etc., then you reduce problems in general.

Most kids want to be in school, even if it's just for socializing. I'd be embarrassed if I were expelling ten percent of my students.
 
2013-03-18 11:12:19 PM

PapaChester: I hope everyone here is feeling trolly today, because all I have read so far is a bunch of stupid farking comments.

You remove them from the classroom so that the others can benefit from the student in question being gone.  No, we don't want your F ups when all the other students are trying their best.

On that note, suspensions for minor stuff is grade A stupid administration, and that is a big problem facing schools today. The administration, that is.


How do you feel about doing away with truancy laws to reduce distracting behavior and violence in schools?  Myself, along with many coworkers (we don't work in education, so this may be extremely stupid), can't find a good reason that it wouldn't work.  You get the little f'ups out of the classroom and hallways so people that actually want to learn can be there.  If they get into trouble doing the same crap outside of school they have to deal with the cops, who have actual power to do something to stop such behavior.  Of course, this would be irresponsible before a certain age, perhaps 15 or 16, which it seems most kids start realizing that they have to think a little about their futures.

It would also have the added benefit of reducing administrative nonsense over a handful of f'up kids that probably won't make anything of their lives regardless of how much you try to help them.
 
2013-03-18 11:13:07 PM
The very idea of SUSPENDING someone for TRUANCY is like some kind of drug-inspired absurdist comedy. Who even came up with that one?
 
2013-03-18 11:19:24 PM

SubBass49: Kimothy: I was at a conference for Dean's and Assistant Principals last week. In a conversation about school discipline, one dean stood up and said that he needed more help because he'd had to expel 83 of the school's 800 students. No lie. He was  bragging about it. I don't care if your school is in Attica prison, expelling ten percent of your student body is ridiculous.

My school has expelled  three students in the last seven years and suspended less than ten. We don't see the discipline problems that our surrounding schools do because we have a totally different approach to education than the see a problem and punish kids, zero tolerance, no excuses public schools. Works great, too.

//Charter school.

I have you listed as a favorite for a reason, though I am often suspect of how charter schools achieve their behavior goals.  I want to ask, what is the admissions process at your school?  Are families required to attend meetings or sign behavior contracts?  Are their parent volunteer requirements?  What about entrance exams and behavior-record reviews?  Just asking because that often helps to weed out the "general population" that public schools cannot legally exclude.  No snark at all...just would love to know from someone I respect.


My school is a non-profit charter, so it's not affiliated with schools like KIPP or the Teach For America schools. Our admissions process is pretty simple. If you or a sibling already attend our school, you get automatic enrollment for the next year. If you have friends that want to attend and they register in our "early registration" drive in May, you get in for the next year, first come first served for every slot. After May, we put all the kids that register by August 1 into a pool for slots, unless we don't have enough enrollments to fill every available seat. We have had to go to the pool for the last three years at least, because we've had a waiting list. This year, our waiting list was 250 kids, some who didn't get in during the pool, and some who tried to enroll after August 1, when all of our slots were gone.

At the end of each quarter, we put all the waiting list kids in a pool for any slots made available because kids withdrew.

There are exceptions to this policy. If you manage to get an appointment with the principal or social worker, we may make a slot available for exceptional cases. We admitted several this year who were on their last attempt at high school (meaning they were expelled from at least two district schools) or for a couple who were very, very sick and couldn't attend traditional school (my school is hybrid, so full time attendance is not required).

As for all of those other things, we just don't do them. Parents aren't required to volunteer, we don't review their behavior record - except we DO ask if they've been expelled from other schools so that we can identify any potential threats We want to know if a kid was expelled for bringing a gun to school, for example - not so that we won't accept them, but so that we can monitor them, connect them to our counselor and social worker, and get them into our behavioral therapy group - all things we can offer because we are a charter with no district overhead. Heck, we don't even have a dean at our school - and we try to handle all behavior problems, such as they are, in house. We'd rather talk to a kid for an hour than suspend them. They can't learn what we're trying to teach if they aren't in school.

The honest to god truth is we don't weed kids out at all. If you come to us, we try to help. Doesn't always work - our model doesn't suit everyone - but our 1200 kids and 200 (or so) person waiting list says it's working for plenty.

Hope that answers your question.
 
2013-03-18 11:23:19 PM
I was a bit of a malcontent in high school but I was far from 'disruptive' (the last thing I wanted was attention). I got in exactly one fistfight, for which I was given a two-day in-school suspension with the guy I had been fighting. We spent the first day making faces at the other kids passing by the window and making sure they saw our blood-stained shirts. By the end of the first day we had forgotten what the fight was about and by the end of the second we were best friends.

It didn't really work as a reward or punishment, but it worked pretty well as a therapeutic exercise.
 
2013-03-18 11:30:50 PM

cyberspacedout: At least in chemistry class, a suspension is not a solution.


Booooooo!

/funny vote
 
2013-03-19 12:08:58 AM

Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.


Had that when I was a kid.  We sat and copied words from our vocabulary books for hours on end.  Mind-crushing but I have a heckuva vocabulary.
 
2013-03-19 12:12:16 AM

AliceBToklasLives: Why do we lock up the criminally insane when we are not punishing them?


Why do put your vibrator in a drawer when it's not giving you pleasure?
 
2013-03-19 12:14:14 AM

red5ish: Could it be that the schools want the parents to get involved in adjusting little snowflake's behavior?


No.  Schoolers know very well how few parents are at home during school hours.
 
2013-03-19 12:26:04 AM

OtherLittleGuy: Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.

It counts for attendance to get Federal grant money, and the kid gets no credit for work and attendance.

We're at a point that homeschooling isn't just for ultrareligious and the large-toothed.

School administrators can't touch your homeschooled kid.


Depends on the state. Some have very lax rules. Others states have rules in place so if the local school board thinks you're doing a bad job, they can petition the courts to force your child back into non-homeschooling. Not necessarily public schooling, but out of the homeschool environment.

And no, it isn't just for the ultra religious and fruitbats anymore, though those are not uncommon at all.

/heard some 9-passenger clowncar mention today that some program was "too secular and restrictive"
//wait, what?
 
2013-03-19 12:29:09 AM

cyberspacedout: At least in chemistry class, a suspension is not a solution.




www.founditemclothing.com
 
2013-03-19 12:29:50 AM

SubBass49: StoPPeRmobile: SubBass49: I've been teaching for 11 years in an urban low-income school, and the amount of shiat it takes to actually EARN a suspension is ridiculous. The suspension isn't so much about teaching the asshat kid a lesson, as it is about allowing the rest of the class a few days without their negative influence in the classroom. Case in point, one of my loudest & most annoying students was suspended today, and a class period that is usually loud & off task was magically transformed into a hard-working and calm room. This info has been stored away, and I will not hesitate to request 2-day suspensions of said student in the future (max we can request & automatically be granted).

The other students are afraid, dear leader. Should make for good citizens.

Good job.

[i.qkme.me image 360x268]


Your only a teacher, no wonder.
 
2013-03-19 12:31:38 AM
images1.wikia.nocookie.net

The only discipline necessary.
 
2013-03-19 12:32:20 AM

lohphat: Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.

Wasn't that called "detention"?


I always thought detention was a requirement to be in school when you didn't normally have to be there. Like after school or "breakfast Club" style. Isn't ISS just during "normal" class hours?
 
2013-03-19 12:33:33 AM

100 Watt Walrus: PsychoTherapist: I'm an actual real live pediatric behavior therapist and I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

Suspension works fine for that smallish subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a punishment. These would be the kids who care about their grades and seeing their friends and participating in band, choir, clubs, teams, etc.

Suspension is a terrible idea for that rather larger subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a reward. These would be the kids who don't like being in school or even in class and who don't necessarily have a lot of friends. Even "in-school suspension" functions as an escape from the classroom for these kids. It tends to make them worse because then they learn that they can tantrum their way out of class.

Bottom line: Nothing is a punishment, or a reward, unless it FUNCTIONS that way. It doesn't farking matter what the consequence LOOKS like. All that matters is what it means to the person it happens to.

I have had this exact conversation with teachers, deans, and principals many, many more times than I should have had it. These people are often hardworking, dedicated, and well-meaning, but all to often have no clue how to change behavior.

These are good points as well. In-school suspension may work, but only if you don't end up with one room full of all the worst kids in school. Maybe put them all in cubbies facing the walls, without cell phones or other forms of preferred distraction, and have someone in the room who's more a guard than a teacher - someone they won't fark with.


Boredom is a disease.
 
2013-03-19 12:45:37 AM
I work for a public charter school that is a boarding program. We take any student who falls within our area and gets selected via the lottery.

Almost all of our students come from the poorest areas locally. Do we lose kids? Absolutely. But bust our butts trying to keep as many of our kids as possible. The worst part of my day is when I have to suspend a kid, but when you have students for 24hrs a day, 5 days a week, they can get wound up pretty tight. I imagine myself as a 6th grader and doubt I would've done much better.

On the plus side, we have more staff per student than any other school in our area. We spend more per student, we give our students more hours of support, and our college acceptance rate for graduates is 96%.

I will admit though, a number of our students will never make it to graduation and that depresses me.
 
2013-03-19 12:51:08 AM

StoPPeRmobile: SubBass49: StoPPeRmobile: SubBass49: I've been teaching for 11 years in an urban low-income school, and the amount of shiat it takes to actually EARN a suspension is ridiculous. The suspension isn't so much about teaching the asshat kid a lesson, as it is about allowing the rest of the class a few days without their negative influence in the classroom. Case in point, one of my loudest & most annoying students was suspended today, and a class period that is usually loud & off task was magically transformed into a hard-working and calm room. This info has been stored away, and I will not hesitate to request 2-day suspensions of said student in the future (max we can request & automatically be granted).

The other students are afraid, dear leader. Should make for good citizens.

Good job.

[i.qkme.me image 360x268]

Your only a teacher, no wonder.


You're a resident of the only state moronic enough to have it's own Fark tag, so you've got that going for you, which is nice.

Here's wagering I outscored you on the GRE analytical writing section.  Most likely right now you're thinking to yourself, "what's the GRE?"  If by some miracle you actually know what it is, and have miraculously taken the exam, then post your score.  Mine was a 6 out of 6.
 
2013-03-19 12:53:38 AM

nmrsnr: PsiChick: //It doesn't work, TFA demonstrated that,

No it didn't. It might certainly be the case that suspension is ineffective, but the "evidence" put forward in the article is some of the worst data analysis I've seen in a while.

the evidence FTFA:
A 2011 study showed that Texas students who were suspended or expelled at least once during middle school and high school averaged four such disciplinary actions during their academic careers. Fourteen percent of them were suspended 11 times or more. Suspensions don't even seem to benefit the school as a whole.

There is no comparison to disciplinary action in schools with different forms of punishment with which to compare whether disciplinary actions occur more or less with no punishment or with different punishment, so the numbers themselves are worthless as evidence of anything.

In recent years, while Baltimore city schools have dramatically reduced suspensions, the dropout rate has been cut nearly in half.

This could have the implied correlation exactly wrong, and in fact both the increase in graduation rate and decrease in suspensions could be entirely linked to either a) improved economic/community conditions, or b) better teachers. Good students with stable home lives both graduate more often and get suspended less, which, again, has nothing to do with the efficacy of suspension as a punishment.

A number of studies showed that minority children, students with low grades, and the poor are suspended disproportionately-a fact that remains true today.

This all sounds like it correlates to being poor. Minorities are still disproportionately poor today, children from low income households generally have parents low education backgrounds, so they can't supplement children's development at home, poor households also are disproportionately single parent households or parents who work extreme hours so they don't have time for reviewing their children's homework, meaning children from poor households also have dispro ...


Drunk driving laws shouldn't be enforced because there are drunks who get 11 offenses...
 
2013-03-19 01:10:32 AM
Hell, I learned that long time ago with employees.    I was the HR Manager for a company and we as part of progressive discipline suspend employees for 3 days for absenteeism .   I had one ask me to make it 5 days instead of 3 days, he could not get to California and back in 3 days.
 
2013-03-19 01:11:23 AM

100 Watt Walrus: PsychoTherapist: I'm an actual real live pediatric behavior therapist and I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

Suspension works fine for that smallish subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a punishment. These would be the kids who care about their grades and seeing their friends and participating in band, choir, clubs, teams, etc.

Suspension is a terrible idea for that rather larger subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a reward. These would be the kids who don't like being in school or even in class and who don't necessarily have a lot of friends. Even "in-school suspension" functions as an escape from the classroom for these kids. It tends to make them worse because then they learn that they can tantrum their way out of class.

Bottom line: Nothing is a punishment, or a reward, unless it FUNCTIONS that way. It doesn't farking matter what the consequence LOOKS like. All that matters is what it means to the person it happens to.

I have had this exact conversation with teachers, deans, and principals many, many more times than I should have had it. These people are often hardworking, dedicated, and well-meaning, but all to often have no clue how to change behavior.

These are good points as well. In-school suspension may work, but only if you don't end up with one room full of all the worst kids in school. Maybe put them all in cubbies facing the walls, without cell phones or other forms of preferred distraction, and have someone in the room who's more a guard than a teacher - someone they won't fark with.


images4.wikia.nocookie.net

LEOPOLD!
 
2013-03-19 01:34:11 AM

SubBass49: StoPPeRmobile: SubBass49: StoPPeRmobile: SubBass49: I've been teaching for 11 years in an urban low-income school, and the amount of shiat it takes to actually EARN a suspension is ridiculous. The suspension isn't so much about teaching the asshat kid a lesson, as it is about allowing the rest of the class a few days without their negative influence in the classroom. Case in point, one of my loudest & most annoying students was suspended today, and a class period that is usually loud & off task was magically transformed into a hard-working and calm room. This info has been stored away, and I will not hesitate to request 2-day suspensions of said student in the future (max we can request & automatically be granted).

The other students are afraid, dear leader. Should make for good citizens.

Good job.

[i.qkme.me image 360x268]

Your only a teacher, no wonder.

You're a resident of the only state moronic enough to have it's own Fark tag, so you've got that going for you, which is nice.

Here's wagering I outscored you on the GRE analytical writing section.  Most likely right now you're thinking to yourself, "what's the GRE?"  If by some miracle you actually know what it is, and have miraculously taken the exam, then post your score.  Mine was a 6 out of 6.




Still can't figure out a way to get down here, eh professor?
 
2013-03-19 01:47:04 AM

Pinnacle Point: I got in a fist fight with my best friend my 8th grade year, but he was smart enough to bring a knife from art class and cut me.  We both got a one day suspension.  I had to spend the whole day playing in the back yard with my pet beagle, and it was one of my fondest memories.   Life is weird, time to chill out is important, you know.


Thats a really cute story. With the amount of pressure put on students these days with constant testing, farked up school system, yes, a day to chill out is probably healthy and needed for all.
 
2013-03-19 02:12:30 AM
Does anyone else feel like cluing stoppermobile in on how he must have misread that?  The kids weren't afraid of their teacher, they were relieved that the asshat kid had been suspended? And now he has entered into some kind of bizarre pissing contest where he sounds less rational each time he posts? Nevermind, it's late AND it's fark...
 
2013-03-19 02:24:34 AM

StoPPeRmobile: SubBass49: StoPPeRmobile: SubBass49: StoPPeRmobile: SubBass49: I've been teaching for 11 years in an urban low-income school, and the amount of shiat it takes to actually EARN a suspension is ridiculous. The suspension isn't so much about teaching the asshat kid a lesson, as it is about allowing the rest of the class a few days without their negative influence in the classroom. Case in point, one of my loudest & most annoying students was suspended today, and a class period that is usually loud & off task was magically transformed into a hard-working and calm room. This info has been stored away, and I will not hesitate to request 2-day suspensions of said student in the future (max we can request & automatically be granted).

The other students are afraid, dear leader. Should make for good citizens.

Good job.

[i.qkme.me image 360x268]

Your only a teacher, no wonder.

You're a resident of the only state moronic enough to have it's own Fark tag, so you've got that going for you, which is nice.

Here's wagering I outscored you on the GRE analytical writing section.  Most likely right now you're thinking to yourself, "what's the GRE?"  If by some miracle you actually know what it is, and have miraculously taken the exam, then post your score.  Mine was a 6 out of 6.

Still can't figure out a way to get down here, eh professor?




Why is it always the people who complain about teachers, who are the ones completely unwilling to do the jobs themselves?

Put up, or shut up.
 
2013-03-19 05:40:33 AM
All schools should be like military schools and have students collect demerits. You can work them off doing various chores, with the worst chores reserved for whoever has the highest number. Plus maybe extra automatic demerits for anyone morbidly obese. That would fix the problem real fast, and you could save on janitorial staff, who would mainly be overseers.
 
2013-03-19 06:19:19 AM
We used to have a system where a teacher would point to a student and say "principal's office" and that was it.  No explanation needed and if they were questioned in the hall, they better be heading to the admin office.  I'm guessing 95% of the kids sent there were the repeat offenders doing the same stupid stuff and it didn't waste the time of the other students or teachers.  We also had after school detention that would often be held by a good teacher who could stand in for just about any class.  If you were sent there, you would get a lecture about some topic and you might just learn something too.
 
2013-03-19 09:44:31 AM

INeedAName: StoPPeRmobile: SubBass49: StoPPeRmobile: SubBass49: StoPPeRmobile: SubBass49: I've been teaching for 11 years in an urban low-income school, and the amount of shiat it takes to actually EARN a suspension is ridiculous. The suspension isn't so much about teaching the asshat kid a lesson, as it is about allowing the rest of the class a few days without their negative influence in the classroom. Case in point, one of my loudest & most annoying students was suspended today, and a class period that is usually loud & off task was magically transformed into a hard-working and calm room. This info has been stored away, and I will not hesitate to request 2-day suspensions of said student in the future (max we can request & automatically be granted).

The other students are afraid, dear leader. Should make for good citizens.

Good job.

[i.qkme.me image 360x268]

Your only a teacher, no wonder.

You're a resident of the only state moronic enough to have it's own Fark tag, so you've got that going for you, which is nice.

Here's wagering I outscored you on the GRE analytical writing section.  Most likely right now you're thinking to yourself, "what's the GRE?"  If by some miracle you actually know what it is, and have miraculously taken the exam, then post your score.  Mine was a 6 out of 6.

Still can't figure out a way to get down here, eh professor?

Why is it always the people who complain about teachers, who are the ones completely unwilling to do the jobs themselves?

Put up, or shut up.




I see you don't like being challenged, eh, Mr. Ad hominem. Our youth are in good hands.
 
2013-03-19 09:49:02 AM

weasil: Does anyone else feel like cluing stoppermobile in on how he must have misread that?  The kids weren't afraid of their teacher, they were relieved that the asshat kid had been suspended? And now he has entered into some kind of bizarre pissing contest where he sounds less rational each time he posts? Nevermind, it's late AND it's fark...




images.inquisitr.com
 
2013-03-19 11:29:19 AM

Day_Old_Dutchie: DON.MAC: The punishment that worked in Catholic  school was the paddle. If it was serious, they brought out the "Board of Education". .

Gotta see The Penguin.
[s15.postimage.org image 300x169]
Memories.


Came for this, leaving happy

/oblig
 
2013-03-19 12:25:21 PM

Ablejack: theguyyousaw: /Dropped out in 8th grade, can't say I'm worse off.

I empathize with your difficulty. It must be frustrating not to be able to express yourself for lack of education.
/just kidding of course


Stupidity is truly exhausting, I assure you.
 
2013-03-19 12:58:19 PM

jmr61: digitalrain: My oldest is a real piece of work when it comes to school. The kid is a genius but has absolutely
zero ambition. He goes to school because I drag his ass out of bed @ 5:30 every morning. He
gets on the bus, goes to class and does nothing. Sometimes he sleeps, sometimes he goofs off.

They used to suspend him out of school for it until I put my foot down. I told the school admins
that he *wanted* to be sent home and that suspending him out of school did nothing but give him
what he wanted. So they started sending him to in-school suspension. He stopped falling asleep
in class after that.

Sorry sweetheart but little Johnny is FAR from a genius given your description of him. But you and hubby keep telling yourself that and allowing him to go all the way through school sleeping. He'll make quite an adult.


Actually, Johnny sounds like SO MANY boys I knew in High School, including my own brother. (Some smart, some not-so-smart).

Does he never do his homework as well but gets A's on most of the tests so he's barely passing?

I have NO CLUE why so many boys do this, and it's always boys for some reason. It typically takes them flunking out of college in the first semester for them to go "huh, I should do my homework and I'm NOT as smart as I think I am".

/Seen it so many times, makes me ragey
//I call 15-25 "the stupid years" for men
///I think girls do something similar in middle school, but it isn't as drastic
 
2013-03-19 01:16:14 PM

Dingleberry Dickwad: Video games? What kind of parent would let their kid sit at home playing video games if they're suspended? My kid isn't the age where he'd get suspended just yet, but if I get a call from the school that he'd been suspended I explain to my boss what happened and go pick that boy up from school, bring him home and have him gather up the power cables for his game systems and computer and throw them in my trunk and give him a list of chores to get done.


Yeah, I was discussing worst-case scenario of parental involvement. This helps too.
 
2013-03-19 01:49:05 PM

PsiChick: Dingleberry Dickwad: Video games? What kind of parent would let their kid sit at home playing video games if they're suspended? My kid isn't the age where he'd get suspended just yet, but if I get a call from the school that he'd been suspended I explain to my boss what happened and go pick that boy up from school, bring him home and have him gather up the power cables for his game systems and computer and throw them in my trunk and give him a list of chores to get done.

Yeah, I was discussing worst-case scenario of parental involvement. This helps too.


There is a long story of suspensions that led to my mom simply removing me from school at 13. Then I was free! Not only that but a few of my slacker friends also dropped out!

Man it was great, the herd would move house to house on grocery days. We would sit around play video games or go ride bikes!

I did a lot of crazy shiat, lots.
Then everyone else got out of high-school and life moved on.


/csb
 
2013-03-19 01:50:14 PM

Kimothy: SubBass49: Kimothy: I was at a conference for Dean's and Assistant Principals last week. In a conversation about school discipline, one dean stood up and said that he needed more help because he'd had to expel 83 of the school's 800 students. No lie. He was  bragging about it. I don't care if your school is in Attica prison, expelling ten percent of your student body is ridiculous.

My school has expelled  three students in the last seven years and suspended less than ten. We don't see the discipline problems that our surrounding schools do because we have a totally different approach to education than the see a problem and punish kids, zero tolerance, no excuses public schools. Works great, too.

//Charter school.

I have you listed as a favorite for a reason, though I am often suspect of how charter schools achieve their behavior goals.  I want to ask, what is the admissions process at your school?  Are families required to attend meetings or sign behavior contracts?  Are their parent volunteer requirements?  What about entrance exams and behavior-record reviews?  Just asking because that often helps to weed out the "general population" that public schools cannot legally exclude.  No snark at all...just would love to know from someone I respect.

My school is a non-profit charter, so it's not affiliated with schools like KIPP or the Teach For America schools. Our admissions process is pretty simple. If you or a sibling already attend our school, you get automatic enrollment for the next year. If you have friends that want to attend and they register in our "early registration" drive in May, you get in for the next year, first come first served for every slot. After May, we put all the kids that register by August 1 into a pool for slots, unless we don't have enough enrollments to fill every available seat. We have had to go to the pool for the last three years at least, because we've had a waiting list. This year, our waiting list was 250 kids, some who didn't get ...


Not to bust your bubble, sounds like your school is doing awesome stuff for kids.

The simple fact that the PARENTS came to you and signed them up for a charter school makes the kids a better breed, because their parents give two shiats about education.

Usually the most disruptive students come from completely broken homes where the parents don't give a shiat. School is a free babysitter.
 
2013-03-19 03:05:17 PM

Dingleberry Dickwad: Video games? What kind of parent would let their kid sit at home playing video games if they're suspended? My kid isn't the age where he'd get suspended just yet, but if I get a call from the school that he'd been suspended I explain to my boss what happened and go pick that boy up from school, bring him home and have him gather up the power cables for his game systems and computer and throw them in my trunk and give him a list of chores to get done.


I hope that you would have some flexibility there based on what he did to get suspended, because I've seen some stupid ones. My high school, for example, had a zero-tolerance policy on fighting, which meant that kids would get suspended for defending themselves instead of just curling up into a ball and allowing themselves to be beaten by an attacker.
 
2013-03-19 03:06:58 PM

shortymac: Kimothy: SubBass49: Kimothy: I was at a conference for Dean's and Assistant Principals last week. In a conversation about school discipline, one dean stood up and said that he needed more help because he'd had to expel 83 of the school's 800 students. No lie. He was  bragging about it. I don't care if your school is in Attica prison, expelling ten percent of your student body is ridiculous.


Not to bust your bubble, sounds like your school is doing awesome stuff for kids.

The simple fact that the PARENTS came to you and signed them up for a charter school makes the kids a better breed, because their parents give two shiats about education.

Usually the most disruptive students come from completely broken homes where the parents don't give a shiat. School is a free babysitter.


You aren't busting my bubble. We have plenty of uninvolved parents. Our school is a school of last resort - when they are kicked out of their other schools, their counselors/principals/whomever tell them to come enroll here. When the parents are arrested for their kids truancy, the courts recommend they come here.

You are assuming that all the parents are signing them up voluntarily, which is really not always the case. In fact, some of our worst students (but best success stories) are kids from truancy court or the districts behavior school. (The behavior school is for kids who have been expelled; they have to go there for at least a quarter if they want to return to the school district. Most don't want to or can't because their offense was egregious so they come here).

That's not to say we don't have students with involved parents - the other group of kids we tend to draw from are homeschooled kids whose parents can't manage the upper level math, english, science, etc., of high school, so they come here where their parents can monitor their education and work with teachers. They make up about 10% of our student body and are usually our best students.
 
2013-03-19 04:17:47 PM

shortymac: jmr61: digitalrain: My oldest is a real piece of work when it comes to school. The kid is a genius but has absolutely
zero ambition. He goes to school because I drag his ass out of bed @ 5:30 every morning. He
gets on the bus, goes to class and does nothing. Sometimes he sleeps, sometimes he goofs off.

They used to suspend him out of school for it until I put my foot down. I told the school admins
that he *wanted* to be sent home and that suspending him out of school did nothing but give him
what he wanted. So they started sending him to in-school suspension. He stopped falling asleep
in class after that.

Sorry sweetheart but little Johnny is FAR from a genius given your description of him. But you and hubby keep telling yourself that and allowing him to go all the way through school sleeping. He'll make quite an adult.

Actually, Johnny sounds like SO MANY boys I knew in High School, including my own brother. (Some smart, some not-so-smart).

Does he never do his homework as well but gets A's on most of the tests so he's barely passing?

I have NO CLUE why so many boys do this, and it's always boys for some reason. It typically takes them flunking out of college in the first semester for them to go "huh, I should do my homework and I'm NOT as smart as I think I am".

/Seen it so many times, makes me ragey
//I call 15-25 "the stupid years" for men
///I think girls do something similar in middle school, but it isn't as drastic


Exactly. And nothing my husband or I do makes a bit of difference. No consequence dire enough,
no reward tantalizing enough. We've gone through more types of therapy than I care to count in
an effort to get to the bottom of why he is the way he is. As frustrating as it is, though, it is a real
cakewalk compared to how he *used* to be. He's gotten a handle on his anger issues in recent
years, so no more attacking his teachers, threatening to snap his brother's neck, sending me to
the ER w/ internal bleeding, etc... His middle school years were a time of terror. Knives had to be
locked up, alarms on doors, juvenile detention, baker acts, etc... Fun times.

He's 18 now and his doctors say maturity wise, he is several years behind his chronological age.
 
2013-03-19 05:36:08 PM

digitalrain: shortymac: jmr61: digitalrain: My oldest is a real piece of work when it comes to school. The kid is a genius but has absolutely
zero ambition. He goes to school because I drag his ass out of bed @ 5:30 every morning. He
gets on the bus, goes to class and does nothing. Sometimes he sleeps, sometimes he goofs off.

They used to suspend him out of school for it until I put my foot down. I told the school admins
that he *wanted* to be sent home and that suspending him out of school did nothing but give him
what he wanted. So they started sending him to in-school suspension. He stopped falling asleep
in class after that.

Sorry sweetheart but little Johnny is FAR from a genius given your description of him. But you and hubby keep telling yourself that and allowing him to go all the way through school sleeping. He'll make quite an adult.

Actually, Johnny sounds like SO MANY boys I knew in High School, including my own brother. (Some smart, some not-so-smart).

Does he never do his homework as well but gets A's on most of the tests so he's barely passing?

I have NO CLUE why so many boys do this, and it's always boys for some reason. It typically takes them flunking out of college in the first semester for them to go "huh, I should do my homework and I'm NOT as smart as I think I am".

/Seen it so many times, makes me ragey
//I call 15-25 "the stupid years" for men
///I think girls do something similar in middle school, but it isn't as drastic

Exactly. And nothing my husband or I do makes a bit of difference. No consequence dire enough,
no reward tantalizing enough. We've gone through more types of therapy than I care to count in
an effort to get to the bottom of why he is the way he is. As frustrating as it is, though, it is a real
cakewalk compared to how he *used* to be. He's gotten a handle on his anger issues in recent
years, so no more attacking his teachers, threatening to snap his brother's neck, sending me to
the ER w/ internal bleeding, etc... His middle schoo ...


That sounds EXACTLY like my brother John, except he wasn't so smart (didn't do well in school until college) and wasn't as violent (He was terrified of my Dad). Hell, he was so bad in high school he was sleeping outside in a tent because all the other punishments didn't work. That didn't work either.

Thankfully, he's calmed down a bit now that he's out of high school, into college (getting As!), and works a very physical job, and is eating a much healthier diet. I think the physical activity, healthier diet, and then the maturity of age have helped a lot.

Thank you so much for taking your son to therapy, I really mean that.  I strongly suspect my brother has severe ADD (he still can't sit still) and I begged my parents to get him tested, who then buried their head in the sand and just said "Oh he's just bad/lazy, more punishment will do the trick!" ad infinitum.

My other brother Ryan, did the lazy high school route (he had no issues until then) and I think he's just cocky and spoiled, and has to have life bite his ass HARD before he matures. He's the youngest and is used to having someone bail his ass out. My hubby think ADD factors into his behavior as well but I'm not so convinced. (Hubby has ADD).

/The good child :)
 
2013-03-19 06:46:24 PM

shortymac: Actually, Johnny sounds like SO MANY boys I knew in High School, including my own brother. (Some smart, some not-so-smart).

Does he never do his homework as well but gets A's on most of the tests so he's barely passing?

I have NO CLUE why so many boys do this, and it's always boys for some reason.


It's called boredom. We already know the material (hence the A's on tests), and don't see any point in practicing it over and over (aka 'homework')- homework is for the dumb ones who need to do it over and over and over and over to pound it into their heads. We already know it.

As for why it's only boys- long story, but it boils down to boys are competitive, girls are cooperative.
 
2013-03-19 06:51:56 PM

shortymac: digitalrain: shortymac: jmr61: digitalrain: My oldest is a real piece of work when it comes to school. The kid is a genius but has absolutely
zero ambition. He goes to school because I drag his ass out of bed @ 5:30 every morning. He
gets on the bus, goes to class and does nothing. Sometimes he sleeps, sometimes he goofs off.

They used to suspend him out of school for it until I put my foot down. I told the school admins
that he *wanted* to be sent home and that suspending him out of school did nothing but give him
what he wanted. So they started sending him to in-school suspension. He stopped falling asleep
in class after that.

Sorry sweetheart but little Johnny is FAR from a genius given your description of him. But you and hubby keep telling yourself that and allowing him to go all the way through school sleeping. He'll make quite an adult.

Actually, Johnny sounds like SO MANY boys I knew in High School, including my own brother. (Some smart, some not-so-smart).

Does he never do his homework as well but gets A's on most of the tests so he's barely passing?

I have NO CLUE why so many boys do this, and it's always boys for some reason. It typically takes them flunking out of college in the first semester for them to go "huh, I should do my homework and I'm NOT as smart as I think I am".

/Seen it so many times, makes me ragey
//I call 15-25 "the stupid years" for men
///I think girls do something similar in middle school, but it isn't as drastic

Exactly. And nothing my husband or I do makes a bit of difference. No consequence dire enough,
no reward tantalizing enough. We've gone through more types of therapy than I care to count in
an effort to get to the bottom of why he is the way he is. As frustrating as it is, though, it is a real
cakewalk compared to how he *used* to be. He's gotten a handle on his anger issues in recent
years, so no more attacking his teachers, threatening to snap his brother's neck, sending me to
the ER w/ internal bleeding, etc... His ...


It's nice to know I'm not the only one who's ever had to go through this - but at the same time, I
feel awful that anyone else has had to go through what our family has gone through. My son is
both bipolar and has ADHD. We've done in-home behavior therapy, out-patient behavior therapy,
anger management, psych counseling, family counseling, even equine therapy (very cool , btw).
None of it helped. He's been medicated, had meds changed, reduced, and now he's off of them
altogether. I am convinced that the Concerta he was on when he was in elementary school had
something to do with exacerbating his violent tendencies.

I cling to the hope that as he grows older, eventually *something* will happen that will motivate
him to do something more than convert oxygen to CO2. What that will be, I have no idea. I don't
care if it's a boyfriend, girlfriend, finding God, Buddha, Allah, FSM, I don't care what it is. I just
want him to be able to live a life that he'll find joy in.
 
2013-03-19 10:15:09 PM

digitalrain: shortymac: digitalrain: shortymac: jmr61: digitalrain: My oldest is a real piece of work when it comes to school. The kid is a genius but has absolutely
zero ambition. He goes to school because I drag his ass out of bed @ 5:30 every morning. He
gets on the bus, goes to class and does nothing. Sometimes he sleeps, sometimes he goofs off.

They used to suspend him out of school for it until I put my foot down. I told the school admins
that he *wanted* to be sent home and that suspending him out of school did nothing but give him
what he wanted. So they started sending him to in-school suspension. He stopped falling asleep
in class after that.

Sorry sweetheart but little Johnny is FAR from a genius given your description of him. But you and hubby keep telling yourself that and allowing him to go all the way through school sleeping. He'll make quite an adult.

Actually, Johnny sounds like SO MANY boys I knew in High School, including my own brother. (Some smart, some not-so-smart).

Does he never do his homework as well but gets A's on most of the tests so he's barely passing?

I have NO CLUE why so many boys do this, and it's always boys for some reason. It typically takes them flunking out of college in the first semester for them to go "huh, I should do my homework and I'm NOT as smart as I think I am".

/Seen it so many times, makes me ragey
//I call 15-25 "the stupid years" for men
///I think girls do something similar in middle school, but it isn't as drastic

Exactly. And nothing my husband or I do makes a bit of difference. No consequence dire enough,
no reward tantalizing enough. We've gone through more types of therapy than I care to count in
an effort to get to the bottom of why he is the way he is. As frustrating as it is, though, it is a real
cakewalk compared to how he *used* to be. He's gotten a handle on his anger issues in recent
years, so no more attacking his teachers, threatening to snap his brother's neck, sending me to
the ER w/ internal bleeding, etc... His ...

It's nice to know I'm not the only one who's ever had to go through this - but at the same time, I
feel awful that anyone else has had to go through what our family has gone through. My son is
both bipolar and has ADHD. We've done in-home behavior therapy, out-patient behavior therapy,
anger management, psych counseling, family counseling, even equine therapy (very cool , btw).
None of it helped. He's been medicated, had meds changed, reduced, and now he's off of them
altogether. I am convinced that the Concerta he was on when he was in elementary school had
something to do with exacerbating his violent tendencies.

I cling to the hope that as he grows older, eventually *something* will happen that will motivate
him to do something more than convert oxygen to CO2. What that will be, I have no idea. I don't
care if it's a boyfriend, girlfriend, finding God, Buddha, Allah, FSM, I don't care what it is. I just
want him to be able to live a life that he'll find joy in.


Excuse me, I relate to all of this in a way. May I try to ease this?

I am one of those fed on superlatives regarding my intellect, even to this day!

A man can't ask for a hug, we seek attention but we can't tell anyone or ask for it.

It's that simple, hug the farking fark out of people if you see them having a bad day.

It goes so far.

I didn't get out of bed until 5 today. If anyone has a lack of ambition, it's me.

/needs a hug...
 
2013-03-20 11:35:35 AM

fredklein: shortymac: Actually, Johnny sounds like SO MANY boys I knew in High School, including my own brother. (Some smart, some not-so-smart).

Does he never do his homework as well but gets A's on most of the tests so he's barely passing?

I have NO CLUE why so many boys do this, and it's always boys for some reason.

It's called boredom. We already know the material (hence the A's on tests), and don't see any point in practicing it over and over (aka 'homework')- homework is for the dumb ones who need to do it over and over and over and over to pound it into their heads. We already know it.

As for why it's only boys- long story, but it boils down to boys are competitive, girls are cooperative.


Hey smart guy, here's a tip.  Do what I did and half-ass your homework and get A's and B's!

None of the hassle of parent's yelling, teacher's disappointment, principal visits, guidance counselors nagging, ISS, etc. You can also get scholarships for having such a great GPA.

I think Men (especially teenage men) are not long-term planners and only see "This homework is boring and stupid" instead of "This homework is so easy, I'm spend 30 mins and bullshiat my way through this so I can keep my GPA and get into a good college!"
 
2013-03-20 12:18:26 PM

digitalrain: shortymac: digitalrain: shortymac: jmr61: digitalrain: My oldest is a real piece of work when it comes to school. The kid is a genius but has absolutely
zero ambition. He goes to school because I drag his ass out of bed @ 5:30 every morning. He
gets on the bus, goes to class and does nothing. Sometimes he sleeps, sometimes he goofs off.

They used to suspend him out of school for it until I put my foot down. I told the school admins
that he *wanted* to be sent home and that suspending him out of school did nothing but give him
what he wanted. So they started sending him to in-school suspension. He stopped falling asleep
in class after that.

Sorry sweetheart but little Johnny is FAR from a genius given your description of him. But you and hubby keep telling yourself that and allowing him to go all the way through school sleeping. He'll make quite an adult.

Actually, Johnny sounds like SO MANY boys I knew in High School, including my own brother. (Some smart, some not-so-smart).

Does he never do his homework as well but gets A's on most of the tests so he's barely passing?

I have NO CLUE why so many boys do this, and it's always boys for some reason. It typically takes them flunking out of college in the first semester for them to go "huh, I should do my homework and I'm NOT as smart as I think I am".

/Seen it so many times, makes me ragey
//I call 15-25 "the stupid years" for men
///I think girls do something similar in middle school, but it isn't as drastic

Exactly. And nothing my husband or I do makes a bit of difference. No consequence dire enough,
no reward tantalizing enough. We've gone through more types of therapy than I care to count in
an effort to get to the bottom of why he is the way he is. As frustrating as it is, though, it is a real
cakewalk compared to how he *used* to be. He's gotten a handle on his anger issues in recent
years, so no more attacking his teachers, threatening to snap his brother's neck, sending me to
the ER w/ internal bleeding, ...


HUG, it's tough but you have to keep going, you've done a lot. If he's gotten a hold on his anger issues that is a HUGE step forward. EIP if you want to talk.

Here's what I found helped my brother John a lot:

1) Get him into a co-op situation/apprenticeship program in a topic he really likes, something that isn't sitting at a desk all day. My brother went into a high school program for robotics and had a great time with it.

2) Try a SCD or gluten-free diet, my hubby says it helps make his brain feel less "busy". You're probably not going to convince the kid to follow it 100% but if you feed him only GF foods you'll probably notice a change in behavior.

3) Try getting him interested in something like D&D and encourage him to write and join a forum like fark so he can interact with like minded people. My brother John loves Anime and has a bunch of online Anime nerd friends which made him more confident in interacting with people in "meatspace".
 
2013-03-20 07:14:48 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Always wondered about that myself. I came to the conclusion that school isn't there for the children, it's to give a job to people who can't get a real job. When you make their job difficult you got to go.


I figure it's to get rid of them so everyone else can try to learn & teach. If they're disrupting the learning of others, the net loss is higher than it is from just sending the one or two home.

Ideally, children should have learned basic civilized behaviors from their parents before they even learn to talk. Unfortunately, this is increasingly rare.
 
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