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(Slate)   Why do schools keep using suspension as a punishment when all the little bastards want to do is go home in the first place?   (slate.com) divider line 174
    More: Stupid, do schools, youth courts, middle schools, truancy, Sandy Hook, punishments, throw in, toy gun  
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7221 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Mar 2013 at 7:08 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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nbt
2013-03-18 08:53:31 PM  
Respite care for the tteachers.
 
2013-03-18 08:57:19 PM  

PsychoTherapist: I'm an actual real live pediatric behavior therapist and I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

Suspension works fine for that smallish subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a punishment. These would be the kids who care about their grades and seeing their friends and participating in band, choir, clubs, teams, etc.

Suspension is a terrible idea for that rather larger subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a reward. These would be the kids who don't like being in school or even in class and who don't necessarily have a lot of friends. Even "in-school suspension" functions as an escape from the classroom for these kids. It tends to make them worse because then they learn that they can tantrum their way out of class.

Bottom line: Nothing is a punishment, or a reward, unless it FUNCTIONS that way. It doesn't farking matter what the consequence LOOKS like. All that matters is what it means to the person it happens to.

I have had this exact conversation with teachers, deans, and principals many, many more times than I should have had it. These people are often hardworking, dedicated, and well-meaning, but all to often have no clue how to change behavior.


So what do you suggest?
 
2013-03-18 08:57:36 PM  

gruntmints: I teach in one of the largest, yet most troubled school districts in the country (Prince George's County, Maryland). Here, suspension is given out freely, quite often because the students who deserve it are a continuous disruption to the learning environment. If a child has no purpose but to come to class and be a major disruption to the learning environment, they've got to go. Part of the problem lies in the lack of consequences that comes with suspension. The students are still allowed to make up the work they've missed when they're suspended. Essentially, they know they can do whatever they want to, get sent home, and just do the work at home. For them, there is no consequence, so the cycle continues. They continue to come, do whatever nonsense they want (everything under the sun--you name it, it happens at my school), and face no more consequence than being yelled at by an administrator who will then hound and harass their teachers to make sure the kid gets their work. Failure needs to be an option. They live under the unrealistic idea that their are no consequences to negative behavior in life. Most of my "bad" students who get suspended quite often and fail my freshmen English class come back and thank me for not letting them slide by like the system wants me to. The majority that fail my class freshmen year due to high rates of suspensions go on to learn their lesson. But I still have colleagues who will pass them even when they've done nothing to prove they've learned anything, and so again, the cycle continues, until someone kicks them in the rear and gets them to realize they can't do whatever they want and still get what they want. The system is as bad as an enabling parent. Which is sad, because most of them have enabling parents, which is why they're the way they are in the first place.


THIS...SO MUCH THIS.

I've been teaching for 11 years in an urban low-income school, and the amount of shiat it takes to actually EARN a suspension is ridiculous.  The suspension isn't so much about teaching the asshat kid a lesson, as it is about allowing the rest of the class a few days without their negative influence in the classroom.  Case in point, one of my loudest & most annoying students was suspended today, and a class period that is usually loud & off task was magically transformed into a hard-working and calm room.  This info has been stored away, and I will not hesitate to request 2-day suspensions of said student in the future (max we can request & automatically be granted).

It's not about correcting his behavior - he has behavior consultants for that.  It's about allowing the rest of the class to perform.

That said, we used to have a small cluster of portable classrooms, fenced off from the rest of the campus, where students with 0.0 GPA and/or behavior problems attended all their classes and ate their lunch.  This was paid for by grant funding, and the students sent into it had to earn their way back into general population.  The program lasted for 2 years, during which time the rest of the students on campus were allowed to learn & enjoy free of the asshole brigade.  What a difference that made.  Sadly the grant ran out.  We called it the 'gated community.'
 
2013-03-18 09:02:32 PM  
100 Watt Walrus:
I don't envy you your job, but I admire the hell out of you for doing it.

Thanks, it's nice to hear it every so often.
 
2013-03-18 09:08:51 PM  
Because every minute they spend disciplining your brat is a minute not spent helping 20 other kids who are ready to learn.
 
2013-03-18 09:13:55 PM  

Kenny B: profplump: Dual-parent single-income families are a thing of the past.

Thanks Obama Reagan!


FTFY
 
2013-03-18 09:15:52 PM  

profplump: DON.MAC: The punishment that worked in Catholic school was the paddle.

What actually works is teaching people what behavior is expected of them and training them to meet those expectations. Punishment can certainly be part of the solution -- deterrents are not a bad plan -- but without training to correct the underlying problem it will do little to improve future behavior. As a general rule, punishments only work when someone already understands what they plan to do is wrong, and that they have alternative courses of action available to them -- threatening to cut off someone's hand for stealing will do little to deter a thief that does not understand that their actions constitute a crime, or a thief who sees their crime as the only way to survive.

It's also worth questioning why we don't hit adults who misbehave -- in the military, for example -- if hitting people is such an effective way to improve their behavior.


There are places in the world that do hit adults and some of them have a much lower crime rate than many of the places that don't.
 
2013-03-18 09:15:53 PM  

Caffandtranqs: PsychoTherapist: I'm an actual real live pediatric behavior therapist and I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

Suspension works fine for that smallish subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a punishment. These would be the kids who care about their grades and seeing their friends and participating in band, choir, clubs, teams, etc.

Suspension is a terrible idea for that rather larger subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a reward. These would be the kids who don't like being in school or even in class and who don't necessarily have a lot of friends. Even "in-school suspension" functions as an escape from the classroom for these kids. It tends to make them worse because then they learn that they can tantrum their way out of class.

Bottom line: Nothing is a punishment, or a reward, unless it FUNCTIONS that way. It doesn't farking matter what the consequence LOOKS like. All that matters is what it means to the person it happens to.

I have had this exact conversation with teachers, deans, and principals many, many more times than I should have had it. These people are often hardworking, dedicated, and well-meaning, but all to often have no clue how to change behavior.

So what do you suggest?


Seriously, I'd like to know your suggestion.  My mother works in a school.  You offered up your expertise on how kids think, but no solution to them problem.
 
2013-03-18 09:18:05 PM  

SubBass49: I've been teaching for 11 years in an urban low-income school, and the amount of shiat it takes to actually EARN a suspension is ridiculous. The suspension isn't so much about teaching the asshat kid a lesson, as it is about allowing the rest of the class a few days without their negative influence in the classroom. Case in point, one of my loudest & most annoying students was suspended today, and a class period that is usually loud & off task was magically transformed into a hard-working and calm room. This info has been stored away, and I will not hesitate to request 2-day suspensions of said student in the future (max we can request & automatically be granted).


The other students are afraid, dear leader. Should make for good citizens.

Good job.
 
2013-03-18 09:20:20 PM  

wildcardjack: teto85: Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.

A few districts have suspension schools.  You go to another school and do your homework and classwork and the penalty for any rule violation is more suspension.

Schools in some states lose money if a student is absent.

Been there, done that. Mid 1990's. It was amazing how much school work you could get through if you weren't distracted by things like slowing down for the other kids.


Yeah, I remember getting ISS on purpose a few times when late on projects because you could either read or do homework. You could get 2 ISS's per semesters (we had 2) or you get a real suspension so you had to be careful

/Had ISS in the early 90's when I was there, but judging by the wall art they had they had it as far back as the 1970's.
 
2013-03-18 09:23:09 PM  

Lady Indica: When I was in high school, I was suspended for ditching school. My mother went bonkers on what an asinine punishment that was, so we all got community service hours to do too. (Catholic school).

I still maintained my grades, it was just so fricken boring.


I got suspended for excessive absences, I had been absent more days than I had been present.  Even then I wondered about the idea that punishing me for not gong to class was forbidding me from going to class. Yes, I still kept my grades up by doing the homework and taking the tests.

Yes, class was so very boring. I pick things up pretty quickly. It's very seldom that I need things explained to me more than twice. Sitting in class while the teachers discuss the same things over and over for a week or more, to get it through some of the thicker skulls, was almost unbearable.
 
2013-03-18 09:33:33 PM  

Philbb: Yes, class was so very boring. I pick things up pretty quickly. It's very seldom that I need things explained to me more than twice. Sitting in class while the teachers discuss the same things over and over for a week or more, to get it through some of the thicker skulls, was almost unbearable.




This.
 
2013-03-18 09:42:21 PM  

weasil: Suspension benefits the students still in class, and as such should be used only for those who were actually doing something that disrupts class (not chewing gum).


That doesn't explain the one time I was suspended for three days. I'd dropped a class a few days into the semester and due to a clerical error the study hall teacher was never instructed to add me to the roster. So for about 2 months I had a free period which I used to educate myself in the library, the computer lab, or sometimes walk to a nearby place for an early lunch.

Supposedly I was being punished for cutting something like 35 classes. The assistant principal wasn't amused when I asked him to show me the record of those absences. His dimwitted idea was to make me actually miss three days of classes because I had missed... none.
 
2013-03-18 10:01:43 PM  
My folks are both teachers. Schools in this part of the world give out of school suspensions as a last resort. In school suspensions  are the new hawtness. Kids act up, they're sent to a room with isolated desks facing the walls. All the kids are allowed to do is homework and reading. They can't talk, and each desk has partitions on both sides so they cannot see one another. You even have to eat your lunch in isolation and in silence. You stay in ISS until your time is up, AND you've correctly completed ALL of your assigned work, and your parent/guardian has come in to have a conference with the principal and with the offending child present.

If you get kicked out of ISS you have to go to a different school that is run almost like a prison. Once there you stay there for the rest of the school year.

This system usually works fairly well. Keeps repeat offenders to a minimum.
 
2013-03-18 10:04:08 PM  
Suspension was ineffective in the '80s. My high school went to in-school suspension and they saw a decrease in suspensions. They put them on display in a small windowed room next to the main lobby of the school.
 
2013-03-18 10:07:58 PM  

AndreMA: weasil: Suspension benefits the students still in class, and as such should be used only for those who were actually doing something that disrupts class (not chewing gum).

That doesn't explain the one time I was suspended for three days. I'd dropped a class a few days into the semester and due to a clerical error the study hall teacher was never instructed to add me to the roster. So for about 2 months I had a free period which I used to educate myself in the library, the computer lab, or sometimes walk to a nearby place for an early lunch.

Supposedly I was being punished for cutting something like 35 classes. The assistant principal wasn't amused when I asked him to show me the record of those absences. His dimwitted idea was to make me actually miss three days of classes because I had missed... none.


I wasn't making any attempt to explain the mis-uses of suspension. You should not have been suspended, the clerk should have been suspended.

/Not sure why you chose my post for your response, since I was already in favor of your position.
 
2013-03-18 10:14:55 PM  

bmr68: Suspension was ineffective in the '80s. My high school went to in-school suspension and they saw a decrease in suspensions. They put them on display in a small windowed room next to the main lobby of the school.




That was so you know who to get drugs from.
 
2013-03-18 10:16:52 PM  

StoPPeRmobile: SubBass49: I've been teaching for 11 years in an urban low-income school, and the amount of shiat it takes to actually EARN a suspension is ridiculous. The suspension isn't so much about teaching the asshat kid a lesson, as it is about allowing the rest of the class a few days without their negative influence in the classroom. Case in point, one of my loudest & most annoying students was suspended today, and a class period that is usually loud & off task was magically transformed into a hard-working and calm room. This info has been stored away, and I will not hesitate to request 2-day suspensions of said student in the future (max we can request & automatically be granted).

The other students are afraid, dear leader. Should make for good citizens.

Good job.


i.qkme.me
 
2013-03-18 10:18:00 PM  
Replace Suspensions with "The Chokey"?

alyssaapurvis.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-03-18 10:32:37 PM  
I was at a conference for Dean's and Assistant Principals last week. In a conversation about school discipline, one dean stood up and said that he needed more help because he'd had to expel 83 of the school's 800 students. No lie. He was  bragging about it. I don't care if your school is in Attica prison, expelling ten percent of your student body is ridiculous.

My school has expelled  three students in the last seven years and suspended less than ten. We don't see the discipline problems that our surrounding schools do because we have a totally different approach to education than the see a problem and punish kids, zero tolerance, no excuses public schools. Works great, too.

//Charter school.
 
2013-03-18 10:32:37 PM  
If a kid is being a little shiat in my classroom and is not responding to the lower level sanctions I can give out, then I see it as my first responsibility is to get that little shiat the fark out of my classroom ASAP so he is no longer stopping me from teaching the rest of the class.

Of course, thanks to the procedures I am forced to follow (including the BS paperwork I am required to fill out right then and there in the middle of the already disrupted and increasingly rowdy class) by the point the student is gone he has already ruined AT LEAST half of the class instruction time for that day.

What happens to him once he is out of my classroom is a pretty distant secondary concern to me.  I think ISS is far better than sending him home, but to be honest I just don't care that much, so long as I get at least a few days before the little shiat comes back to (usually) cause more trouble.

In an idea situation, the administration would trust the teacher enough so I could be able to point to a disruptive student and truthfully say "You!  Get the Fark out of my classroom, NOW, or I will call the resource officer and have your sorry ass arrested for trespassing."

Then I would be allowed to fill out the relevant forms documenting the incident during my planning period or at the end of that day.  From there, the kid would banished from the class until there is a meeting (scheduled at MY convenience) among me, the kid, the kid's mom/dad/guardian, and a vice principal where it's up to the kid and parent to convince me the little shiat is willing to behave from then on.

A proper teacher, of course, would only use that power in circumstances of extreme disruption (fighting, cussing out the teacher, etc.) or  AFTER said kid has gotten several warnings and doesn't respond to things like the prospect of detention, extra work, or calling parents.

=============================

I have several kids in my classes who just won't shut the fark up and behave. They are effectively denying the rest of class their right to a proper education, and It's often too hard and too time consuming to get them removed.

Luckily, they tend to get themselves removed by cutting too many classes and/or getting themselves arrested.  But it takes too damn long and they do MASSIVE damage to the class in the meantime.

I sure hope I can get back to teaching juniors/seniors next school year.  By the junior and senior years nearly all of the serious farkups and students who just won't do the work have weeded themselves out.  There's still shiatloads of apathy for me to try to overcome, but at least they're quiet about it, so it isn't nearly as damaging to the class or stressful to me.
 
2013-03-18 10:32:41 PM  

jmr61: digitalrain: My oldest is a real piece of work when it comes to school. The kid is a genius but has absolutely
zero ambition. He goes to school because I drag his ass out of bed @ 5:30 every morning. He
gets on the bus, goes to class and does nothing. Sometimes he sleeps, sometimes he goofs off.

They used to suspend him out of school for it until I put my foot down. I told the school admins
that he *wanted* to be sent home and that suspending him out of school did nothing but give him
what he wanted. So they started sending him to in-school suspension. He stopped falling asleep
in class after that.

Sorry sweetheart but little Johnny is FAR from a genius given your description of him. But you and hubby keep telling yourself that and allowing him to go all the way through school sleeping. He'll make quite an adult.


The kid gets 95th+ percentile on his standardized tests, aces finals and midterms, has a 143 IQ,
so yeah, I think I have some basis for the claim. Intelligence (or lack thereof) isn't this problem.
Laziness and lack of motivation is his problem. If an assignment is something he's interested in,
he blows his teachers away with what he's capable of. If he isn't interested, you can't pull two
sentences out of him.
 
2013-03-18 10:47:49 PM  

Riche: If a kid is being a little shiat in my classroom and is not responding to the lower level sanctions I can give out, then I see it as my first responsibility is to get that little shiat the fark out of my classroom ASAP so he is no longer stopping me from teaching the rest of the class.

Of course, thanks to the procedures I am forced to follow (including the BS paperwork I am required to fill out right then and there in the middle of the already disrupted and increasingly rowdy class) by the point the student is gone he has already ruined AT LEAST half of the class instruction time for that day.

What happens to him once he is out of my classroom is a pretty distant secondary concern to me.  I think ISS is far better than sending him home, but to be honest I just don't care that much, so long as I get at least a few days before the little shiat comes back to (usually) cause more trouble.

In an idea situation, the administration would trust the teacher enough so I could be able to point to a disruptive student and truthfully say "You!  Get the Fark out of my classroom, NOW, or I will call the resource officer and have your sorry ass arrested for trespassing."

Then I would be allowed to fill out the relevant forms documenting the incident during my planning period or at the end of that day.  From there, the kid would banished from the class until there is a meeting (scheduled at MY convenience) among me, the kid, the kid's mom/dad/guardian, and a vice principal where it's up to the kid and parent to convince me the little shiat is willing to behave from then on.

A proper teacher, of course, would only use that power in circumstances of extreme disruption (fighting, cussing out the teacher, etc.) or  AFTER said kid has gotten several warnings and doesn't respond to things like the prospect of detention, extra work, or calling parents.

=============================

I have several kids in my classes who just won't shut the fark up and behave. They are effectively de ...


...said every high school teacher in a low-income urban school...ever.

I feel your pain.  My classes are all mixed grade-level.  The freshmen typically make up the bulk of failures & behavior problems.  I wish I could limit enrollment in my course to 10th grade & up, but then there'd be no handy storage space for the 9th grade fark-ups.  I have what I call "furniture kids" in some of my courses...kids that attend every day to socialize, but have under a 10% in the course.  Before you Fark Education ExpertsTM all whine that I must be making the material too difficult, this is Art 1.
 
2013-03-18 10:48:00 PM  

Kimothy: I was at a conference for Dean's and Assistant Principals last week. In a conversation about school discipline, one dean stood up and said that he needed more help because he'd had to expel 83 of the school's 800 students. No lie. He was  bragging about it. I don't care if your school is in Attica prison, expelling ten percent of your student body is ridiculous.

My school has expelled  three students in the last seven years and suspended less than ten. We don't see the discipline problems that our surrounding schools do because we have a totally different approach to education than the see a problem and punish kids, zero tolerance, no excuses public schools. Works great, too.

//Charter school.


I see this as a GOOD thing. Throw out the kids who don't want to be there and only cause disruptions. What good is it to force someone to be there?
 
2013-03-18 10:52:18 PM  

Kimothy: I was at a conference for Dean's and Assistant Principals last week. In a conversation about school discipline, one dean stood up and said that he needed more help because he'd had to expel 83 of the school's 800 students. No lie. He was  bragging about it. I don't care if your school is in Attica prison, expelling ten percent of your student body is ridiculous.

My school has expelled  three students in the last seven years and suspended less than ten. We don't see the discipline problems that our surrounding schools do because we have a totally different approach to education than the see a problem and punish kids, zero tolerance, no excuses public schools. Works great, too.

//Charter school.


I have you listed as a favorite for a reason, though I am often suspect of how charter schools achieve their behavior goals.  I want to ask, what is the admissions process at your school?  Are families required to attend meetings or sign behavior contracts?  Are their parent volunteer requirements?  What about entrance exams and behavior-record reviews?  Just asking because that often helps to weed out the "general population" that public schools cannot legally exclude.  No snark at all...just would love to know from someone I respect.
 
2013-03-18 10:54:41 PM  

SubBass49: Before you Fark Education ExpertsTM all whine that I must be making the material too difficult, this is Art 1.


You must make art not fun.  I hated art in school because the teachers took it so damn seriously when I was trying to do the assignments but feel my way around technique as well.  I could never exactly reproduce what the teacher was instructing even when I tried.  Hate art.  Hate art teachers.  Picky.  Arrogant as all hell.  Derisive.  Patronizing.

It's a life long thing with me though.  Started in 1st or 2nd grade when I wanted to paint my dog blue and the teacher got on my case because dogs aren't really blue.  Well, screw you lady, I grew up and adopted a blue dog from the pound and I still hate you.

Well, that was cathartic.
 
2013-03-18 10:55:31 PM  
At least in chemistry class, a suspension is not a solution.
 
2013-03-18 10:58:38 PM  

100 Watt Walrus: PsychoTherapist: I'm an actual real live pediatric behavior therapist and I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

Suspension works fine for that smallish subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a punishment. These would be the kids who care about their grades and seeing their friends and participating in band, choir, clubs, teams, etc.

Suspension is a terrible idea for that rather larger subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a reward. These would be the kids who don't like being in school or even in class and who don't necessarily have a lot of friends. Even "in-school suspension" functions as an escape from the classroom for these kids. It tends to make them worse because then they learn that they can tantrum their way out of class.

Bottom line: Nothing is a punishment, or a reward, unless it FUNCTIONS that way. It doesn't farking matter what the consequence LOOKS like. All that matters is what it means to the person it happens to.

I have had this exact conversation with teachers, deans, and principals many, many more times than I should have had it. These people are often hardworking, dedicated, and well-meaning, but all to often have no clue how to change behavior.

These are good points as well. In-school suspension may work, but only if you don't end up with one room full of all the worst kids in school. Maybe put them all in cubbies facing the walls, without cell phones or other forms of preferred distraction, and have someone in the room who's more a guard than a teacher - someone they won't fark with.


You actually describe something that we had at our school. I forgot the name of it, but each teacher had something for you to do, you could not talk, nor use any form of typing/writing material other than to do the task the teacher assigned. If you were done with the task, you sat there facing the cubicle. Lunch: you ate at the cubicle.

I did that for a couple of days, and it was no fun.
 
2013-03-18 10:59:37 PM  
There was a kid in my middle school that had to wash the cafeteria trays for a while when he got caught stealing the spoons.
 
2013-03-18 11:07:48 PM  

gadian: SubBass49: Before you Fark Education ExpertsTM all whine that I must be making the material too difficult, this is Art 1.

You must make art not fun.  I hated art in school because the teachers took it so damn seriously when I was trying to do the assignments but feel my way around technique as well.  I could never exactly reproduce what the teacher was instructing even when I tried.  Hate art.  Hate art teachers.  Picky.  Arrogant as all hell.  Derisive.  Patronizing.

It's a life long thing with me though.  Started in 1st or 2nd grade when I wanted to paint my dog blue and the teacher got on my case because dogs aren't really blue.  Well, screw you lady, I grew up and adopted a blue dog from the pound and I still hate you.

Well, that was cathartic.


Glad I could help.

All I ask is that kids try, and actually turn in the work.  I tell them at the start of the year, "You might not get an "A", but you'll at least pass the course."  I get kids who do nothing...all year.
 
2013-03-18 11:09:23 PM  

astouffer: Kimothy: I was at a conference for Dean's and Assistant Principals last week. In a conversation about school discipline, one dean stood up and said that he needed more help because he'd had to expel 83 of the school's 800 students. No lie. He was  bragging about it. I don't care if your school is in Attica prison, expelling ten percent of your student body is ridiculous.

My school has expelled  three students in the last seven years and suspended less than ten. We don't see the discipline problems that our surrounding schools do because we have a totally different approach to education than the see a problem and punish kids, zero tolerance, no excuses public schools. Works great, too.

//Charter school.

I see this as a GOOD thing. Throw out the kids who don't want to be there and only cause disruptions. What good is it to force someone to be there?


It was a middle school. His kids are all 13 and under. Granted, it was a tough neighborhood school, so I can see some problems. But ten percent? That's crazy. There's a disconnect between classroom management, discipline, and the kids. Plenty of studies exist showing a connection between suspension, expulsion, and drop out rates, and others that show if you reduce the number of suspensions - through alternative punishments, different approaches to discipline, etc., then you reduce problems in general.

Most kids want to be in school, even if it's just for socializing. I'd be embarrassed if I were expelling ten percent of my students.
 
2013-03-18 11:12:19 PM  

PapaChester: I hope everyone here is feeling trolly today, because all I have read so far is a bunch of stupid farking comments.

You remove them from the classroom so that the others can benefit from the student in question being gone.  No, we don't want your F ups when all the other students are trying their best.

On that note, suspensions for minor stuff is grade A stupid administration, and that is a big problem facing schools today. The administration, that is.


How do you feel about doing away with truancy laws to reduce distracting behavior and violence in schools?  Myself, along with many coworkers (we don't work in education, so this may be extremely stupid), can't find a good reason that it wouldn't work.  You get the little f'ups out of the classroom and hallways so people that actually want to learn can be there.  If they get into trouble doing the same crap outside of school they have to deal with the cops, who have actual power to do something to stop such behavior.  Of course, this would be irresponsible before a certain age, perhaps 15 or 16, which it seems most kids start realizing that they have to think a little about their futures.

It would also have the added benefit of reducing administrative nonsense over a handful of f'up kids that probably won't make anything of their lives regardless of how much you try to help them.
 
2013-03-18 11:13:07 PM  
The very idea of SUSPENDING someone for TRUANCY is like some kind of drug-inspired absurdist comedy. Who even came up with that one?
 
2013-03-18 11:19:24 PM  

SubBass49: Kimothy: I was at a conference for Dean's and Assistant Principals last week. In a conversation about school discipline, one dean stood up and said that he needed more help because he'd had to expel 83 of the school's 800 students. No lie. He was  bragging about it. I don't care if your school is in Attica prison, expelling ten percent of your student body is ridiculous.

My school has expelled  three students in the last seven years and suspended less than ten. We don't see the discipline problems that our surrounding schools do because we have a totally different approach to education than the see a problem and punish kids, zero tolerance, no excuses public schools. Works great, too.

//Charter school.

I have you listed as a favorite for a reason, though I am often suspect of how charter schools achieve their behavior goals.  I want to ask, what is the admissions process at your school?  Are families required to attend meetings or sign behavior contracts?  Are their parent volunteer requirements?  What about entrance exams and behavior-record reviews?  Just asking because that often helps to weed out the "general population" that public schools cannot legally exclude.  No snark at all...just would love to know from someone I respect.


My school is a non-profit charter, so it's not affiliated with schools like KIPP or the Teach For America schools. Our admissions process is pretty simple. If you or a sibling already attend our school, you get automatic enrollment for the next year. If you have friends that want to attend and they register in our "early registration" drive in May, you get in for the next year, first come first served for every slot. After May, we put all the kids that register by August 1 into a pool for slots, unless we don't have enough enrollments to fill every available seat. We have had to go to the pool for the last three years at least, because we've had a waiting list. This year, our waiting list was 250 kids, some who didn't get in during the pool, and some who tried to enroll after August 1, when all of our slots were gone.

At the end of each quarter, we put all the waiting list kids in a pool for any slots made available because kids withdrew.

There are exceptions to this policy. If you manage to get an appointment with the principal or social worker, we may make a slot available for exceptional cases. We admitted several this year who were on their last attempt at high school (meaning they were expelled from at least two district schools) or for a couple who were very, very sick and couldn't attend traditional school (my school is hybrid, so full time attendance is not required).

As for all of those other things, we just don't do them. Parents aren't required to volunteer, we don't review their behavior record - except we DO ask if they've been expelled from other schools so that we can identify any potential threats We want to know if a kid was expelled for bringing a gun to school, for example - not so that we won't accept them, but so that we can monitor them, connect them to our counselor and social worker, and get them into our behavioral therapy group - all things we can offer because we are a charter with no district overhead. Heck, we don't even have a dean at our school - and we try to handle all behavior problems, such as they are, in house. We'd rather talk to a kid for an hour than suspend them. They can't learn what we're trying to teach if they aren't in school.

The honest to god truth is we don't weed kids out at all. If you come to us, we try to help. Doesn't always work - our model doesn't suit everyone - but our 1200 kids and 200 (or so) person waiting list says it's working for plenty.

Hope that answers your question.
 
2013-03-18 11:23:19 PM  
I was a bit of a malcontent in high school but I was far from 'disruptive' (the last thing I wanted was attention). I got in exactly one fistfight, for which I was given a two-day in-school suspension with the guy I had been fighting. We spent the first day making faces at the other kids passing by the window and making sure they saw our blood-stained shirts. By the end of the first day we had forgotten what the fight was about and by the end of the second we were best friends.

It didn't really work as a reward or punishment, but it worked pretty well as a therapeutic exercise.
 
2013-03-18 11:30:50 PM  

cyberspacedout: At least in chemistry class, a suspension is not a solution.


Booooooo!

/funny vote
 
2013-03-19 12:08:58 AM  

Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.


Had that when I was a kid.  We sat and copied words from our vocabulary books for hours on end.  Mind-crushing but I have a heckuva vocabulary.
 
2013-03-19 12:12:16 AM  

AliceBToklasLives: Why do we lock up the criminally insane when we are not punishing them?


Why do put your vibrator in a drawer when it's not giving you pleasure?
 
2013-03-19 12:14:14 AM  

red5ish: Could it be that the schools want the parents to get involved in adjusting little snowflake's behavior?


No.  Schoolers know very well how few parents are at home during school hours.
 
2013-03-19 12:26:04 AM  

OtherLittleGuy: Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.

It counts for attendance to get Federal grant money, and the kid gets no credit for work and attendance.

We're at a point that homeschooling isn't just for ultrareligious and the large-toothed.

School administrators can't touch your homeschooled kid.


Depends on the state. Some have very lax rules. Others states have rules in place so if the local school board thinks you're doing a bad job, they can petition the courts to force your child back into non-homeschooling. Not necessarily public schooling, but out of the homeschool environment.

And no, it isn't just for the ultra religious and fruitbats anymore, though those are not uncommon at all.

/heard some 9-passenger clowncar mention today that some program was "too secular and restrictive"
//wait, what?
 
2013-03-19 12:29:09 AM  

cyberspacedout: At least in chemistry class, a suspension is not a solution.




www.founditemclothing.com
 
2013-03-19 12:29:50 AM  

SubBass49: StoPPeRmobile: SubBass49: I've been teaching for 11 years in an urban low-income school, and the amount of shiat it takes to actually EARN a suspension is ridiculous. The suspension isn't so much about teaching the asshat kid a lesson, as it is about allowing the rest of the class a few days without their negative influence in the classroom. Case in point, one of my loudest & most annoying students was suspended today, and a class period that is usually loud & off task was magically transformed into a hard-working and calm room. This info has been stored away, and I will not hesitate to request 2-day suspensions of said student in the future (max we can request & automatically be granted).

The other students are afraid, dear leader. Should make for good citizens.

Good job.

[i.qkme.me image 360x268]


Your only a teacher, no wonder.
 
2013-03-19 12:31:38 AM  
images1.wikia.nocookie.net

The only discipline necessary.
 
2013-03-19 12:32:20 AM  

lohphat: Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.

Wasn't that called "detention"?


I always thought detention was a requirement to be in school when you didn't normally have to be there. Like after school or "breakfast Club" style. Isn't ISS just during "normal" class hours?
 
2013-03-19 12:33:33 AM  

100 Watt Walrus: PsychoTherapist: I'm an actual real live pediatric behavior therapist and I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

Suspension works fine for that smallish subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a punishment. These would be the kids who care about their grades and seeing their friends and participating in band, choir, clubs, teams, etc.

Suspension is a terrible idea for that rather larger subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a reward. These would be the kids who don't like being in school or even in class and who don't necessarily have a lot of friends. Even "in-school suspension" functions as an escape from the classroom for these kids. It tends to make them worse because then they learn that they can tantrum their way out of class.

Bottom line: Nothing is a punishment, or a reward, unless it FUNCTIONS that way. It doesn't farking matter what the consequence LOOKS like. All that matters is what it means to the person it happens to.

I have had this exact conversation with teachers, deans, and principals many, many more times than I should have had it. These people are often hardworking, dedicated, and well-meaning, but all to often have no clue how to change behavior.

These are good points as well. In-school suspension may work, but only if you don't end up with one room full of all the worst kids in school. Maybe put them all in cubbies facing the walls, without cell phones or other forms of preferred distraction, and have someone in the room who's more a guard than a teacher - someone they won't fark with.


Boredom is a disease.
 
2013-03-19 12:45:37 AM  
I work for a public charter school that is a boarding program. We take any student who falls within our area and gets selected via the lottery.

Almost all of our students come from the poorest areas locally. Do we lose kids? Absolutely. But bust our butts trying to keep as many of our kids as possible. The worst part of my day is when I have to suspend a kid, but when you have students for 24hrs a day, 5 days a week, they can get wound up pretty tight. I imagine myself as a 6th grader and doubt I would've done much better.

On the plus side, we have more staff per student than any other school in our area. We spend more per student, we give our students more hours of support, and our college acceptance rate for graduates is 96%.

I will admit though, a number of our students will never make it to graduation and that depresses me.
 
2013-03-19 12:51:08 AM  

StoPPeRmobile: SubBass49: StoPPeRmobile: SubBass49: I've been teaching for 11 years in an urban low-income school, and the amount of shiat it takes to actually EARN a suspension is ridiculous. The suspension isn't so much about teaching the asshat kid a lesson, as it is about allowing the rest of the class a few days without their negative influence in the classroom. Case in point, one of my loudest & most annoying students was suspended today, and a class period that is usually loud & off task was magically transformed into a hard-working and calm room. This info has been stored away, and I will not hesitate to request 2-day suspensions of said student in the future (max we can request & automatically be granted).

The other students are afraid, dear leader. Should make for good citizens.

Good job.

[i.qkme.me image 360x268]

Your only a teacher, no wonder.


You're a resident of the only state moronic enough to have it's own Fark tag, so you've got that going for you, which is nice.

Here's wagering I outscored you on the GRE analytical writing section.  Most likely right now you're thinking to yourself, "what's the GRE?"  If by some miracle you actually know what it is, and have miraculously taken the exam, then post your score.  Mine was a 6 out of 6.
 
2013-03-19 12:53:38 AM  

nmrsnr: PsiChick: //It doesn't work, TFA demonstrated that,

No it didn't. It might certainly be the case that suspension is ineffective, but the "evidence" put forward in the article is some of the worst data analysis I've seen in a while.

the evidence FTFA:
A 2011 study showed that Texas students who were suspended or expelled at least once during middle school and high school averaged four such disciplinary actions during their academic careers. Fourteen percent of them were suspended 11 times or more. Suspensions don't even seem to benefit the school as a whole.

There is no comparison to disciplinary action in schools with different forms of punishment with which to compare whether disciplinary actions occur more or less with no punishment or with different punishment, so the numbers themselves are worthless as evidence of anything.

In recent years, while Baltimore city schools have dramatically reduced suspensions, the dropout rate has been cut nearly in half.

This could have the implied correlation exactly wrong, and in fact both the increase in graduation rate and decrease in suspensions could be entirely linked to either a) improved economic/community conditions, or b) better teachers. Good students with stable home lives both graduate more often and get suspended less, which, again, has nothing to do with the efficacy of suspension as a punishment.

A number of studies showed that minority children, students with low grades, and the poor are suspended disproportionately-a fact that remains true today.

This all sounds like it correlates to being poor. Minorities are still disproportionately poor today, children from low income households generally have parents low education backgrounds, so they can't supplement children's development at home, poor households also are disproportionately single parent households or parents who work extreme hours so they don't have time for reviewing their children's homework, meaning children from poor households also have dispro ...


Drunk driving laws shouldn't be enforced because there are drunks who get 11 offenses...
 
2013-03-19 01:10:32 AM  
Hell, I learned that long time ago with employees.    I was the HR Manager for a company and we as part of progressive discipline suspend employees for 3 days for absenteeism .   I had one ask me to make it 5 days instead of 3 days, he could not get to California and back in 3 days.
 
2013-03-19 01:11:23 AM  

100 Watt Walrus: PsychoTherapist: I'm an actual real live pediatric behavior therapist and I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

Suspension works fine for that smallish subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a punishment. These would be the kids who care about their grades and seeing their friends and participating in band, choir, clubs, teams, etc.

Suspension is a terrible idea for that rather larger subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a reward. These would be the kids who don't like being in school or even in class and who don't necessarily have a lot of friends. Even "in-school suspension" functions as an escape from the classroom for these kids. It tends to make them worse because then they learn that they can tantrum their way out of class.

Bottom line: Nothing is a punishment, or a reward, unless it FUNCTIONS that way. It doesn't farking matter what the consequence LOOKS like. All that matters is what it means to the person it happens to.

I have had this exact conversation with teachers, deans, and principals many, many more times than I should have had it. These people are often hardworking, dedicated, and well-meaning, but all to often have no clue how to change behavior.

These are good points as well. In-school suspension may work, but only if you don't end up with one room full of all the worst kids in school. Maybe put them all in cubbies facing the walls, without cell phones or other forms of preferred distraction, and have someone in the room who's more a guard than a teacher - someone they won't fark with.


images4.wikia.nocookie.net

LEOPOLD!
 
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