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(Slate)   Why do schools keep using suspension as a punishment when all the little bastards want to do is go home in the first place?   (slate.com) divider line 174
    More: Stupid, do schools, youth courts, middle schools, truancy, Sandy Hook, punishments, throw in, toy gun  
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7219 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Mar 2013 at 7:08 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-18 07:46:14 PM  
www.nndb.com

And my wife sent me to my room...which is where I wanted to go in the first place!
 
2013-03-18 07:47:34 PM  

ShawnDoc: ReapTheChaos: bhcompy: 2) The real point of suspension isn't the day-of punishment, it's the mark on your record that goes with you forever

Really? Forever? Don't you mean until the end of that school year? If you were a truly unruly student that stuff might follow you until you graduate but that's about it.

I was accepted by Harvard, but then on the first day of classes I got called to the admissions office.  Turns out my high school had sent over my "official" transcripts, including the time I was suspended for calling Mandy Jones a 'classless twat' on a class trip.  They informed me they were sorry, but they couldn't allow me to attend classes at Harvard and I'd have to go to another school.

/Long story short, I flunked out of community college and now suck dick behind the 76 station for money.  All because of my "permanent record" as a child.


Which 76 station and how much?
 
2013-03-18 07:48:01 PM  
I got in trou
 
2013-03-18 07:48:23 PM  

nmrsnr: /sorry, didn't mean to pick on you, I would have pointed it out anyway, you just gave me something to respond to.


That's fine. I'm cooking right now, so I didn't check it very thoroughly, and you raise good points. I would say, though, that poor students are more likely to get punished  for the same crimes as the other students because of social factors--parents who live in a poor neighborhood or were poor tend to teach different social skills to children, which can translate to coming off as 'rude' or 'defiant'. So that's always a fun factor to throw in.
 
2013-03-18 07:48:41 PM  

SilentStrider: Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.

now?
My high school had that 20 years ago.
I resolved never go get sent back there after the first time, because I didn't think I could take that much boredom again.


Yea, we had it ten years ago, but we were allowed schoolwork/homework to do (and it's easy enough to fake doing schoolwork. I LOVED going to ISS, because any bullying or inane chatter was taken care of straightaway.

/was sent to ISS only a couple times, suspended a lot more
//Zero tolerance only applies if the school doesn't like you/your parents
///Never to PTA parent's kids!
 
2013-03-18 07:49:33 PM  

logictwisted: At friend's school, they only suspend students out of school when they know the parents well enough to know they'll have consequences at home. If not, it's in-school and that includes cleaning the cafeteria, the windows, and (with parental permission) the bathrooms when the student isn't working on school work. He says they've actually had parents bring their kids in before school on out of school suspension days or on Saturday mornings to clean the bathrooms to make up for their infractions.


How has the Custodian's Union not complained about this?

My schools used to have garbage picking as a punishment, but that stopped when the janitors complained it was taking work away from them.
 
2013-03-18 07:50:17 PM  

theguyyousaw: I got in trou


...ble plotting the demise of my bully.

/Dropped out in 8th grade, can't say I'm worse off.
 
2013-03-18 07:50:21 PM  

hiker9999: doglover: Because it's illegal to cane children into submission like the Victorians would.

We should rectify that.


I strongly disagree. They were pretty over the top.

A little buttocks whippin' with a paddle is a good thing that builds character. But caning? That's over the top and should be limited to actual criminals.
 
2013-03-18 07:50:24 PM  

bhcompy: The real point of suspension isn't the day-of punishment, it's the mark on your record that goes with you forever


You actually believed that shiat?  Should I be concerned about losing the job that I've had for 15 years if my Supervisor wants to contact my high school on the other side of the country and find out all the things I did in high school, 25 years ago?
 
2013-03-18 07:54:47 PM  

indarwinsshadow: How the hell did this get greenlit?


In-Fark Punishment from the Mods.
 
2013-03-18 07:58:47 PM  

doglover: Because it's illegal to cane children into submission like the Victorians would.


What I stopped by to say.

/Product of boarding school system where caning was encouraged.
 
2013-03-18 08:00:30 PM  

DON.MAC: The punishment that worked in Catholic school was the paddle.


What actually works is teaching people what behavior is expected of them and training them to meet those expectations. Punishment can certainly be part of the solution -- deterrents are not a bad plan -- but without training to correct the underlying problem it will do little to improve future behavior. As a general rule, punishments only work when someone already understands what they plan to do is wrong, and that they have alternative courses of action available to them -- threatening to cut off someone's hand for stealing will do little to deter a thief that does not understand that their actions constitute a crime, or a thief who sees their crime as the only way to survive.

It's also worth questioning why we don't hit adults who misbehave -- in the military, for example -- if hitting people is such an effective way to improve their behavior.
 
2013-03-18 08:01:02 PM  

red5ish: Could it be that the schools want the parents to get involved in adjusting little snowflake's behavior?


Exactly. The earlier you start training kids to bottle up their emotions, the better.
 
2013-03-18 08:02:03 PM  

buckeyebrain: bhcompy: The real point of suspension isn't the day-of punishment, it's the mark on your record that goes with you forever

You actually believed that shiat?  Should I be concerned about losing the job that I've had for 15 years if my Supervisor wants to contact my high school on the other side of the country and find out all the things I did in high school, 25 years ago?


roguebarristers.typepad.com
 
2013-03-18 08:03:53 PM  
Suspension is punishment for the parent, who in turn punishes the student.
 
2013-03-18 08:04:19 PM  
I got suspended once for making little rockets out of aluminum foil and matches, and showing them off at school. I was like 8 years old. Nothing like a flying ball of molten aluminum to get the teachers attention. And the principal. And my dad.

FYI, the specific impulse of match compound is terrible.
 
2013-03-18 08:04:25 PM  

doglover: But caning? That's over the top and should be limited to actual criminals.


and consensual adults.
 
2013-03-18 08:04:27 PM  

doglover: hiker9999: doglover: Because it's illegal to cane children into submission like the Victorians would.

We should rectify that.

I strongly disagree. They were pretty over the top.

A little buttocks whippin' with a paddle is a good thing that builds character. But caning? That's over the top and should be limited to actual criminals.


Kids at my elementary school in Australia talking about caning as if it was a real possibility, but I don't know of anyone who actually got it.  It might have been a boogeyman punishment.  This was in the 80s.
 
2013-03-18 08:04:36 PM  

teto85: Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.

A few districts have suspension schools.  You go to another school and do your homework and classwork and the penalty for any rule violation is more suspension.

Schools in some states lose money if a student is absent.


Been there, done that. Mid 1990's. It was amazing how much school work you could get through if you weren't distracted by things like slowing down for the other kids.
 
2013-03-18 08:07:35 PM  
Oh and after I dropped out the real learning began!!!

I hosted goldeneye tournaments, smoked weed all day, tried to find people to buy me cigs...

Even then, I worked a lot of under the table construction jobs at 14 and on. As soon as I turned 16 I was working 2 jobs and partying my head off!!

/
 
2013-03-18 08:09:19 PM  

fredklein: ...so the parents have to stay home from work to watch them, and beat them senseless for being little bratsopen a dialog to communicate with the little angels?


Exactly, suspensions punish the parents, which will punish the children as they see fit in return. Win-win for the school.

(Except for latchkey kids who'd just play vidya games all day, like me.)

What's hilarious is when suspension is a punishment for truancy. The parent obviously doesn't care, you're just giving the kid school-sanctioned days off at that point.
 
2013-03-18 08:11:10 PM  

hiker9999: We should rectify that.


Exactly.

And we should allow managers at every workplace to cane employees who misbehave/underproduce/etc. Production would skyrocket and our economy would be saved!
 
2013-03-18 08:11:38 PM  

theguyyousaw: /Dropped out in 8th grade, can't say I'm worse off.


I empathize with your difficulty. It must be frustrating not to be able to express yourself for lack of education.
/just kidding of course
 
2013-03-18 08:12:21 PM  

foxyshadis: Except for latchkey kids who'd just play vidya games all day, like me.


Like most kids today. Dual-parent single-income families are a thing of the past. Structuring school around that assumption is ridiculous.
 
2013-03-18 08:13:17 PM  
i820.photobucket.com

Problem solved.
 
2013-03-18 08:16:10 PM  

profplump: DON.MAC: The punishment that worked in Catholic school was the paddle.

What actually works is teaching people what behavior is expected of them and training them to meet those expectations. Punishment can certainly be part of the solution -- deterrents are not a bad plan -- but without training to correct the underlying problem it will do little to improve future behavior. As a general rule, punishments only work when someone already understands what they plan to do is wrong, and that they have alternative courses of action available to them -- threatening to cut off someone's hand for stealing will do little to deter a thief that does not understand that their actions constitute a crime, or a thief who sees their crime as the only way to survive.

It's also worth questioning why we don't hit adults who misbehave -- in the military, for example -- if hitting people is such an effective way to improve their behavior.


As a 200 pound gym-user I approve of this.
 
2013-03-18 08:23:57 PM  

indarwinsshadow: How the hell did this get greenlit?


Fark Unity Thread. EVERYONE gets to wonder, how the hell did this get greenlit.

HTHDTGGL?
 
2013-03-18 08:24:24 PM  

vudukungfu: doglover: But caning? That's over the top and should be limited to actual criminals.

and consensual adults.


Absolutely not consensual. If you do a crime severe enough, lack of consent should not spare you a harsh punishment. And a new, sterile rattan stick is a hell of a lot cheaper than even a day of incarceration. I'm all for corporal punishment for crimes. It's better for society. It's nice if criminals disagree and would prefer to sit in jail. The less they like the punishment, the more chances they'll take steps to avoid it.

But you can't cane kids. They're too small and emotionally fragile.
 
2013-03-18 08:24:33 PM  
I got suspended once.  The worst part about the suspension, I couldn't leave school until a parent picked me up.  My mom waited at home for 20 minutes before leaving to pick me up.  She didn't calm down either in those 20 minutes.  She was calm just long enough to check me out of school.  Followed by a quick car ride of her yelling at me, home to yell, sent to my room where I was to wait for my dad to come home, more yelling and grounded.  Suspension isn't really that fun your parents have a laundry list of chores for you to do while you're suspended, followed by a week where I have to play catch up with my school work after school.
 
2013-03-18 08:26:18 PM  
My oldest is a real piece of work when it comes to school. The kid is a genius but has absolutely
zero ambition. He goes to school because I drag his ass out of bed @ 5:30 every morning. He
gets on the bus, goes to class and does nothing. Sometimes he sleeps, sometimes he goofs off.

They used to suspend him out of school for it until I put my foot down. I told the school admins
that he *wanted* to be sent home and that suspending him out of school did nothing but give him
what he wanted. So they started sending him to in-school suspension. He stopped falling asleep
in class after that.
 
2013-03-18 08:29:43 PM  

PsiChick: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Always wondered about that myself. I came to the conclusion that school isn't there for the children, it's to give a job to people who can't get a real job. When you make their job difficult you got to go.

You've never actually confronted school discipline as even a thought exercise, have you.

/Hint: They aren't there for school. They're there for their  friends--staying home from school  sounds fun, right up until the kids discover that video games are only so interesting when no one's online. Also, there's the humiliation aspect.
//It doesn't work, TFA demonstrated that, but it is an actual punishment, and the 'those who can't do teach herpa derp' idea is why Finland has the best education system in the world and America doesn't.


Video games? What kind of parent would let their kid sit at home playing video games if they're suspended? My kid isn't the age where he'd get suspended just yet, but if I get a call from the school that he'd been suspended I explain to my boss what happened and go pick that boy up from school, bring him home and have him gather up the power cables for his game systems and computer and throw them in my trunk and give him a list of chores to get done.
 
2013-03-18 08:30:31 PM  

johnnieconnie: "....when all the little bastards want to do..."

Subby must be a bitter, overworked, underpaid, public school teacher.

/There,there, summer will be here soon


Nah.. they would be referring to the shiatbag assistant principals who dont know how to adminster anything and someone only approved them because they needed to get X number of a specific minority in administration.
 
2013-03-18 08:32:42 PM  
My school had a simple solution to this. You were suspended within the building in a small classroom. You effectively got days of detention instead of going home.

Nobody like being suspended.
 
2013-03-18 08:33:21 PM  

PsiChick: /Hint: They aren't there for school. They're there for their  friends--staying home from school  sounds fun, right up until the kids discover that video games are only so interesting when no one's online


That is why you log in the the South Korean server......
 
2013-03-18 08:33:54 PM  

Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.


Now?  I had that in the eighties.   AND I had to do tons of work, lots and lots and lots of work.
 
2013-03-18 08:34:10 PM  
I'm an actual real live pediatric behavior therapist and I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

Suspension works fine for that smallish subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a punishment. These would be the kids who care about their grades and seeing their friends and participating in band, choir, clubs, teams, etc.

Suspension is a terrible idea for that rather larger subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a reward. These would be the kids who don't like being in school or even in class and who don't necessarily have a lot of friends. Even "in-school suspension" functions as an escape from the classroom for these kids. It tends to make them worse because then they learn that they can tantrum their way out of class.

Bottom line: Nothing is a punishment, or a reward, unless it FUNCTIONS that way. It doesn't farking matter what the consequence LOOKS like. All that matters is what it means to the person it happens to.

I have had this exact conversation with teachers, deans, and principals many, many more times than I should have had it. These people are often hardworking, dedicated, and well-meaning, but all to often have no clue how to change behavior.
 
2013-03-18 08:34:26 PM  

weasil: Suspension benefits the students still in class, and as such should be used only for those who were actually doing something that disrupts class (not chewing gum).

We just lost a wonderful family at our school (two well-behaved, smart kids, and a mom who volunteered for anything all day long) because the little bastidge who's been tormenting the older child in the family mercilessly since kindergarten (now in grade 4) has yet to be suspended for any of the crazy-evil shiat he pulls. More has been done to appease the bastidge's overly hostile family members than has been done to protect any of his victims.

I don't care if they sit at home playing video games, as long as I can productively work with the other 30 kids while they're gone.



i.imgur.com


I don't envy you your job, but I admire the hell out of you for doing it.
 
2013-03-18 08:36:12 PM  

digitalrain: My oldest is a real piece of work when it comes to school. The kid is a genius but has absolutely
zero ambition. He goes to school because I drag his ass out of bed @ 5:30 every morning. He
gets on the bus, goes to class and does nothing. Sometimes he sleeps, sometimes he goofs off.


How far away from school do you live that it requires getting up before dawn?
 
2013-03-18 08:36:35 PM  

profplump: Dual-parent single-income families are a thing of the past.


Thanks Obama!
 
2013-03-18 08:38:26 PM  

buckeyebrain: bhcompy: The real point of suspension isn't the day-of punishment, it's the mark on your record that goes with you forever

You actually believed that shiat?  Should I be concerned about losing the job that I've had for 15 years if my Supervisor wants to contact my high school on the other side of the country and find out all the things I did in high school, 25 years ago?


Someone took forever a little seriously

/forever in school terms in college admissions
 
2013-03-18 08:38:39 PM  

PsychoTherapist: I'm an actual real live pediatric behavior therapist and I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

Suspension works fine for that smallish subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a punishment. These would be the kids who care about their grades and seeing their friends and participating in band, choir, clubs, teams, etc.

Suspension is a terrible idea for that rather larger subset of kids for whom it FUNCTIONS as a reward. These would be the kids who don't like being in school or even in class and who don't necessarily have a lot of friends. Even "in-school suspension" functions as an escape from the classroom for these kids. It tends to make them worse because then they learn that they can tantrum their way out of class.

Bottom line: Nothing is a punishment, or a reward, unless it FUNCTIONS that way. It doesn't farking matter what the consequence LOOKS like. All that matters is what it means to the person it happens to.

I have had this exact conversation with teachers, deans, and principals many, many more times than I should have had it. These people are often hardworking, dedicated, and well-meaning, but all to often have no clue how to change behavior.


These are good points as well. In-school suspension may work, but only if you don't end up with one room full of all the worst kids in school. Maybe put them all in cubbies facing the walls, without cell phones or other forms of preferred distraction, and have someone in the room who's more a guard than a teacher - someone they won't fark with.
 
2013-03-18 08:38:47 PM  

SilentStrider: Nadie_AZ: Some have 'in school suspension' now. You go to school, you sit in a room and do nothing.

now?
My high school had that 20 years ago.
I resolved never go get sent back there after the first time, because I didn't think I could take that much boredom again.


We also had this in High School 20 years ago.

I never got suspended or in-school suspension.

I got afterschool detention, once.  That was for punching a bully who had been taunting me and teasing me for most of a semester.  Normally it would have been in-school suspension for fighting, but I was known as a honors student with an otherwise flawless record, and he was a goon who was constantly in trouble and fighting, so the Principal went easy on me when I got fed up with his crap and gave me the lightest slap-on-the-wrist punishment he could.
 
2013-03-18 08:38:56 PM  

Bondith: digitalrain: My oldest is a real piece of work when it comes to school. The kid is a genius but has absolutely
zero ambition. He goes to school because I drag his ass out of bed @ 5:30 every morning. He
gets on the bus, goes to class and does nothing. Sometimes he sleeps, sometimes he goofs off.

How far away from school do you live that it requires getting up before dawn?


A couple of miles. He gets up @ 5:30, leaves the house @ 6am, bus picks him up @ 6:15. First bell is @ 7:20.
 
2013-03-18 08:43:37 PM  
Why do I have to pay for my neighbors sons education?  Because schooling in America is retarded
 
2013-03-18 08:44:26 PM  
I loved in school suspension. I got it for missing to much school. It was perfect. Miss a lot, spend a week in iss: all the school none of the work. Rinse, repeat.

Someone should have kicked my ass though.
 
2013-03-18 08:45:16 PM  
They should add a fear element to in-school suspension. Suspended students should be given an extra project to do, and their suspension lasts indefinitely until the extra project is done.  Kids just bide their time during in-school suspension.  What they dread is classwork, especially if it is classwork nobody else has to do.  Fark this having more than one kid in the same suspension area where they can communicate with each other.  Make them sit in cubicles that are tall.  Kids won't want to be there.
 
2013-03-18 08:45:18 PM  

bhcompy: buckeyebrain: bhcompy: The real point of suspension isn't the day-of punishment, it's the mark on your record that goes with you forever

You actually believed that shiat?  Should I be concerned about losing the job that I've had for 15 years if my Supervisor wants to contact my high school on the other side of the country and find out all the things I did in high school, 25 years ago?

Someone took forever a little seriously

/forever in school terms in college admissions


What college actually checked on things like if you were suspended or not?

My high school transcript had no entry on it for times suspended or any other disciplinary record, simply a list of classes taken, grades and credits earned, GPA, days attended and days absent, and name, D.O.B. and SSN. . .with no distinction made between excused and unexcused absences in the attendance.

Unless they actually called and talked to somebody they'd have no way to know, and unless you were applying to some super-competitive school like M.I.T. or Harvard, I doubt they'd ever call/talk to anybody at the school in person.  Transcripts and test scores are all most places have to go on for undergraduate admissions.  Not a lot of schools want interviews, essays, and such in the modern day, much less trying to check for a disciplinary record.  It's not like getting suspended will keep you out of college, especially a community college or public university.
 
2013-03-18 08:46:08 PM  

profplump: hiker9999: We should rectify that. Exactly. And we should allow managers at every workplace to cane employees who misbehave/underproduce/etc. Production would skyrocket and our economy would be saved!


As long as it's reciprical with no crime being comitted.
 
2013-03-18 08:48:14 PM  

Bondith: digitalrain: My oldest is a real piece of work when it comes to school. The kid is a genius but has absolutely
zero ambition. He goes to school because I drag his ass out of bed @ 5:30 every morning. He
gets on the bus, goes to class and does nothing. Sometimes he sleeps, sometimes he goofs off.

How far away from school do you live that it requires getting up before dawn?


Not sure about him, but in my area the first class for high school starts at about 7:40ish, buses usually get there around 7:30ish.  Figure get him up at 5:30. Let him eat, we'll say 15 minutes to 5:45. Then he's gotta do the basic shiat, shower, shave. We'll go with 30 minutes for all that. 6:15. Depending on the kid, another 5-20 minutes primping, doing hair changing clothes because they can't make up their mind. We're at 6:20-6:35. So there's about an hour left. If the kid is one of the earlier ones picked up on a rural school bus route that could easily kill that hour.
 
2013-03-18 08:51:30 PM  

digitalrain: My oldest is a real piece of work when it comes to school. The kid is a genius but has absolutely
zero ambition. He goes to school because I drag his ass out of bed @ 5:30 every morning. He
gets on the bus, goes to class and does nothing. Sometimes he sleeps, sometimes he goofs off.

They used to suspend him out of school for it until I put my foot down. I told the school admins
that he *wanted* to be sent home and that suspending him out of school did nothing but give him
what he wanted. So they started sending him to in-school suspension. He stopped falling asleep
in class after that.


Sorry sweetheart but little Johnny is FAR from a genius given your description of him. But you and hubby keep telling yourself that and allowing him to go all the way through school sleeping. He'll make quite an adult.
 
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