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(Hot Air)   The EU's plan to destroy their economy altered, new plans in place should only mostly destroy their economy   (hotair.com) divider line 342
    More: Followup, Cypriot, European debt crisis, bank rescues, deposits  
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6391 clicks; posted to Business » on 18 Mar 2013 at 11:08 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-18 03:25:12 PM

Evil High Priest: BigNumber12: Day_Old_Dutchie: The economic problems we have right now can be simply summed up.

Too many middle-men making too much money doing no productive work - essentially paper shuffling manipulating "financial instruments"

We as a society need to get back to actually making things or providing services to each other rather than just playing the stock market like a personal casino.

I like you.

That world? Where we dominated all manufacturing after WWII? That's never coming back. Nev. Er. All we have left is software dev and high-speed pizza delivery.


Okay, well, how fast is the pizza delivery?
 
2013-03-18 03:25:33 PM
Can we just start the apocalypse already? That'd be fun.
 
2013-03-18 03:29:33 PM

robohobo: Can we just start the apocalypse already? That'd be fun.


Props for the name-comment combo.
 
2013-03-18 03:33:41 PM

cameroncrazy1984: InstaZen25: Also, tax raise = economy good is a little simplistic there.

But I thought you said if you raise taxes then people will leave?


Yeah, if you raise to a point. Everyone has there threshold. Price, pain, taxes, whatever.
People don't like paying for other people's mistakes, or even their own really.
 
2013-03-18 03:40:00 PM

Fark_Guy_Rob: But it's absolutely true - healthy people (fit, non-smokers) will live longer and rack up more medical expenses than unhealthy folk.


upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-03-18 03:41:40 PM

cameroncrazy1984: Gdalescrboz: But liberals don't want it to stop at services.

Stop telling us what we want.


Ladies first.
 
2013-03-18 03:41:51 PM

Thunderpipes: ACunningPlan: Thunderpipes: ACunningPlan: DamnYankees: CygnusDarius: Why can't the EU do what Iceland did?.

Because the EU is not a unified whole. Doing what Iceland did would be great for Cyprus but bad for Germany. And Germany has more clout than Cyprus.


Merkel is facing Federal elections in September; the German taxpayers are going "WTF" over continuously underwriting the cr$ppy countries debts.  This is her way of saying we're helping hold the EU together, but you won't get stiffed with the bill.  Much of the Greek bail-out money has "vanished" into the black hole which is the current Greek economy; so this bail-out came with pain shared by all.

And ultimately it's a way for the nutjobs running the EU to demand closer fiscal & political union.  It's essentially a power-grab.

It is working the same way here. Instead of individual countries, we have large groups of people. Some work, some don't. Some pay their bills, some don't. Some want to be responsible, some don't. In the end, the slackers need bailouts, and the only way to do that is to take from those that have been responsible. It is working the same here as there. Fail.

It's worse in Europe though, because this is empire-building on a massive scale.  There is too much power concentrated in too few hands & they all live inside an echo-chamber & feed off the EU monster.  Unfortunately there is no way out ; it will end in tears - probably not for quite a while yet - but eventually the whole thing will collapse under it's own dead weight.

It is not really any worse over there. The entire EU union is close enough in terms of GDP and population to be a reasonable comparison to the US. You describe our political system too, power concentrated in few hands, sounds perfect for us. And we too, will collapse under our own weight. Most people just don't really think about the numbers, because it does not effect them right here and now. But the numbers for the US are indeed a monster. Unless we make massive, massive cuts right now, we cannot escape the inevitable collapse.


Question. If you don't get the massive cuts, and the only way to avoid a collapse is raising taxes, will you raise taxes?
 
2013-03-18 03:51:04 PM

BolshyGreatYarblocks: QuietMan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc

Yeah!  I get to whip out the Keynes vs. Hayek rap battles.  :-)

//surprisingly good economic summaries for funny vids.

Disclaimer: vids funded by Geo. Mason U., the C students' U. of Chicago.  Keynes didn't hope for war to get his govt. funding on.


Hmmmm.  What to do?  My understanding is that back when these vids were made, supporters of both Keynes & Hayek agreed that the men's views were being accurately shown.  But what review to link to?  I don't know what sites are 'liberal' or 'conservative' and cause people to stop listening.  (I was not aware, for instance, that the University of Chicago was off limits for polite discussion.)  Wikipedia has a brief review but doesn't discuss this.  Is it the source that needs a disclaimer or is it only Keynes view on war that you think is misrepresented?
 
2013-03-18 03:54:37 PM
Any fark independents come in to ruin this thread yet or am I too late?

its stuff like this that creates doomsday preppers.

also, punishing people who save while bailing out people who spend will just lead to more debt, less saving, more bubbles and more financial calamities in our future.  it will just encourage more of the kind of behavior that got us here.  why do you think it continues to happen?

the banks in the USA behaved badly and as punishment we bailed them out.  We used taxpayer money to do so.  Indirectly it has the same effect as simply stealing money from bank accounts - now Americans pay higher tax rates.  And we have bigger deficits and more national debt that we will have to cover.  And the people who were most responsible will be penalized the most.

Where's the incentive for the banks not to behave badly in the future?
where's the incentive to save for people who behave right?
 
2013-03-18 03:55:22 PM
this thread
thecampofthesaints.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-03-18 03:55:25 PM

FARK rebel soldier: Fark_Guy_Rob: But it's absolutely true - healthy people (fit, non-smokers) will live longer and rack up more medical expenses than unhealthy folk.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x600]


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9359212/Obese-and-smoke rs -less-of-a-burden-on-the-NHS-than-the-healthy-who-live-longer-report.h tml

Short version: fatties and smokers die considerably younger, and are thus less expensive.
 
2013-03-18 03:57:14 PM

SlothB77: the banks in the USA behaved badly and as punishment we bailed them out.


This is half of the reality.  Legions of consumers took out loans far larger than they could ever afford over the long term, in hopes of flipping their properties for a profit.
 
2013-03-18 03:58:35 PM

ACunningPlan: Thunderpipes: ACunningPlan: Thunderpipes: ACunningPlan: DamnYankees: CygnusDarius: Why can't the EU do what Iceland did?.

Because the EU is not a unified whole. Doing what Iceland did would be great for Cyprus but bad for Germany. And Germany has more clout than Cyprus.


Merkel is facing Federal elections in September; the German taxpayers are going "WTF" over continuously underwriting the cr$ppy countries debts.  This is her way of saying we're helping hold the EU together, but you won't get stiffed with the bill.  Much of the Greek bail-out money has "vanished" into the black hole which is the current Greek economy; so this bail-out came with pain shared by all.

And ultimately it's a way for the nutjobs running the EU to demand closer fiscal & political union.  It's essentially a power-grab.

It is working the same way here. Instead of individual countries, we have large groups of people. Some work, some don't. Some pay their bills, some don't. Some want to be responsible, some don't. In the end, the slackers need bailouts, and the only way to do that is to take from those that have been responsible. It is working the same here as there. Fail.

It's worse in Europe though, because this is empire-building on a massive scale.  There is too much power concentrated in too few hands & they all live inside an echo-chamber & feed off the EU monster.  Unfortunately there is no way out ; it will end in tears - probably not for quite a while yet - but eventually the whole thing will collapse under it's own dead weight.

It is not really any worse over there. The entire EU union is close enough in terms of GDP and population to be a reasonable comparison to the US. You describe our political system too, power concentrated in few hands, sounds perfect for us. And we too, will collapse under our own weight. Most people just don't really think about the numbers, because it does not effect them right here and now. But the numbers for the US are indeed a monster. Unless we mak ...


Is it really any different? Once again, our subcultures can be compared to their countries. Teachers are pissed if you dare suggest pension cuts. Liberals pissed at Pubs if you dare mention entitlement cuts. Pubs pissed at Dems for refusing to tackle the debt. Blacks pissed at whites for being white. Women pissed at men for being men. Men pissed at themselves for losing their balls. North pissed at the South because of slavery a few years ago. Poor people pissed at rich people for making it. Rich people pissed at poor people for stealing their stuff.

If anything, I would say we are more divided than they. We intentionally divide ourselves in an effort to win public office.
 
2013-03-18 04:02:00 PM

Shryke: This is half of the reality. Legions of consumers took out loans far larger than they could ever afford over the long term, in hopes of flipping their properties for a profit.


Of course there were no loan officers who approved these shoddy loans, and the underwriters were never told to ignore all the warning signs and instead to just get the loan pushed through.

Credit scoring, you can't explain how that farking works
 
2013-03-18 04:02:30 PM
Question. If you don't get the massive cuts, and the only way to avoid a collapse is raising taxes, will you raise taxes?

My quote ability sucks.

You cannot possibly raise taxes enough. You do realize, in a couple decades, if you raised taxes a full 50%, it would not even cover entitlement spending alone? Compounding interest is working against us, and it absolutely will not stop, ever. Even if you raised them enough to temporally postpone the collapse, it will just collapse later and be worse.
 
2013-03-18 04:03:23 PM
When you are ignorant to reality... blame austerity! Ignore the fact that all but 3 EU countries have continued to increase spending. Ignore the fact that many have tried the liberal approach of raise taxes and grow spending. Blame austerity! So much easier that way.
 
2013-03-18 04:05:49 PM

MyKingdomForYourHorse: Of course there were no loan officers who approved these shoddy loans


I am not arguing that. I am pointing out that the other legal half of these contracts also were acting badly.
 
2013-03-18 04:06:04 PM

Thunderpipes: Compounding interest is working against us


Yes of course, that horrible compounding interest of the money we borrow at near record levels. Did you know that for every 100 dollars we borrow, we need only have to pay back .01 of a cent? NO seriously over the entire course of the bond, we only pay that much.

Of course you wouldn't know, because you've gone full derp.
 
2013-03-18 04:06:07 PM

DamnYankees: mr lawson: Well, quite a few people here always yell "tax wealth not income" and also biatch about companies who have large amoints of money in banks and not using it to make jobs. So taxing bank accounts would seem to be right up their alley

I've never really heard anyone here advocate a wealth tax as opposed to an income tax, so that's neither here nor there.


You are absolutely lying. Many on fark advocate taxing wealth. Then there is a subset who post wealth distribution threads in tax threads to prove taxation isn't truly progressive... thus linking wealth to taxes.

Basically you are lying.
 
2013-03-18 04:06:53 PM

Shryke: I am not arguing that. I am pointing out that the other legal half of these contracts also were acting badly.


True, to be fair though this is like complaining about putting a meth head into an ephedrine factory in Thailand and then complaining when the place blows up.
 
2013-03-18 04:07:40 PM
cameroncrazy1984
 Thunderpipes: Liberals want the opposite.
Obama raised taxes and now the recovery is really gaining steam. How do you explain that?


1/3d of the recovery went in to the bank accounts of the richest 15,600 households.  If you think either party is looking out forth, you are nothing short of retarded.
 
2013-03-18 04:09:01 PM

MyRandomName: You are absolutely lying. Many on fark advocate taxing wealth. Then there is a subset who post wealth distribution threads in tax threads to prove taxation isn't truly progressive... thus linking wealth to taxes.

Basically you are lying.


I never said people don't advocate wealth taxes. I said they don't do so as a replacement for income taxes. If you can show me someone who has argued for that, I'll obviously retract, but I don't recall ever seeing it.
 
2013-03-18 04:09:51 PM
Curious, at what level of debt to GDP would you liberals actually be worried about? 100%? 125%? 150%? 200%?

Honest question.

Keep in mind, the CBO's  multi-year projections are wrong 80% of the time, and usually understate the actual deficit by 40%.
 
2013-03-18 04:10:31 PM

MyRandomName: When you are ignorant to reality... blame austerity! Ignore the fact that all but 3 EU countries have continued to increase spending. Ignore the fact that many have tried the liberal approach of raise taxes and grow spending. Blame austerity! So much easier that way.


Raising taxes is a form of austerity.
 
2013-03-18 04:11:29 PM

MyKingdomForYourHorse: Shryke: I am not arguing that. I am pointing out that the other legal half of these contracts also were acting badly.

True, to be fair though this is like complaining about putting a meth head into an ephedrine factory in Thailand and then complaining when the place blows up.


You are comparing normal consumers to meth heads.  This is intellectually lazy.  The banks weren't the reason why all these loans were being funded, and thus continuing the giant spiral of death we now know as the F/F collapse. The real reason was F/F was guaranteeing huge swaths of these shiat loans, thus erasing/improving their appropriate risk ratings.
 
2013-03-18 04:12:00 PM

Thunderpipes: Curious, at what level of debt to GDP would you liberals actually be worried about? 100%? 125%? 150%? 200%?

Honest question.

Keep in mind, the CBO's  multi-year projections are wrong 80% of the time, and usually understate the actual deficit by 40%.


There's no correlation between debt to GDP ratio and debt crisis, so that's simply not a relevant factor. I'd look to bond market activity and interest rates. The ratio to GDP is not a relevant factor.
 
2013-03-18 04:12:09 PM

MyRandomName: When you are ignorant to reality... blame austerity! Ignore the fact that all but 3 EU countries have continued to increase spending. Ignore the fact that many have tried the liberal approach of raise taxes and grow spending. Blame austerity! So much easier that way.


Maybe you could just list a few of the known success stories, where austerity measures did in fact lead to financial upturns. We'll all wait.
 
2013-03-18 04:12:54 PM

Wangiss: cameroncrazy1984: Thunderpipes: It is about entitlement spending,

So you think that the teachers don't deserve a retirement? And that the issue isn't that we have the lowest tax rates in 30 years and a growing, aging population?

I've noticed that the either-or fallacy is your favorite.  I'm going to start pointing it out.

You have implied that Thunderpipes' claim that teachers are owed too much in pensions means that he thinks "that the teachers don't deserve a retirement ."  You have no reason to believe this claim.  Perhaps he simply believes that teachers deserve some, but less, pensions for their retirement.  Thus there is a third option.  That is why your assertion is an either-or fallacy.


That's the only fallacy you found? What about his straight obfuscation on taxes? CBO estimates tax revenue to be 19.1% of GDP next year. A full percent above historic averages.

Libe rals like to manipulate facta in order to sound smart. Fallacies are truly all they have.
 
2013-03-18 04:16:13 PM

Shryke: You are comparing normal consumers to meth heads. This is intellectually lazy. The banks weren't the reason why all these loans were being funded, and thus continuing the giant spiral of death we now know as the F/F collapse. The real reason was F/F was guaranteeing huge swaths of these shiat loans, thus erasing/improving their appropriate risk ratings.


Have you walked around Walmart recently? I think I am being generous using the meth head comparison.

But I do agree with you on point.
 
2013-03-18 04:16:38 PM

MyKingdomForYourHorse: Thunderpipes: Compounding interest is working against us

Yes of course, that horrible compounding interest of the money we borrow at near record levels. Did you know that for every 100 dollars we borrow, we need only have to pay back .01 of a cent? NO seriously over the entire course of the bond, we only pay that much.

Of course you wouldn't know, because you've gone full derp.


Is this a serious post? Really? You really think our current interest payments are only 160 billion a year?

Here is the US treasury website. Oh, an "adjustment" was made in 2013 that removed 75 billion somehow from the interest for 2013. That will not happen again. Interest rates will rise in the future. Obama is adding a trillion a year to the debt.

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/ir/ir_expense.htm

Interest owed on the debt for year ending:

2012 $359,796,008,919.492011 $454,393,280,417.032010 $413,954,825,362 .172009 $383,071,060,815.42
 
2013-03-18 04:16:45 PM

Shryke: SlothB77: the banks in the USA behaved badly and as punishment we bailed them out.

This is half of the reality.  Legions of consumers took out loans far larger than they could ever afford over the long term, in hopes of flipping their properties for a profit.


Ultimately, it is up to the banks not to assume risk they cannot handle.  They weren't forced into making those contracts, were they?
 
2013-03-18 04:16:47 PM

MyRandomName: CBO estimates tax revenue to be 19.1% of GDP next year. A full percent above historic averages.


Historic averages of the last 30 years?
 
2013-03-18 04:17:53 PM

Thunderpipes: Obama is adding a trillion a year to the debt.


Interest owed on previous debt is not due to Obama.
 
2013-03-18 04:18:56 PM

Thunderpipes: Obama is adding a trillion a year to the debt.

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/ir/ir_expense.htm


The deficit as a percentage of GDP has gone down every year Obama has been in office.
 
2013-03-18 04:20:21 PM

Shryke: SlothB77: the banks in the USA behaved badly and as punishment we bailed them out.

This is half of the reality.  Legions of consumers took out loans far larger than they could ever afford over the long term, in hopes of flipping their properties for a profit.


Not just that, but the Home Equity Line of Credit became a house-sized credit card for a lot of people.  The aggregate rise of home-owner equity slowed significantly, compounding our liquidity problems.
 
2013-03-18 04:22:11 PM

MyRandomName: Wangiss: cameroncrazy1984: Thunderpipes: It is about entitlement spending,

So you think that the teachers don't deserve a retirement? And that the issue isn't that we have the lowest tax rates in 30 years and a growing, aging population?

I've noticed that the either-or fallacy is your favorite.  I'm going to start pointing it out.

You have implied that Thunderpipes' claim that teachers are owed too much in pensions means that he thinks "that the teachers don't deserve a retirement ."  You have no reason to believe this claim.  Perhaps he simply believes that teachers deserve some, but less, pensions for their retirement.  Thus there is a third option.  That is why your assertion is an either-or fallacy.

That's the only fallacy you found? What about his straight obfuscation on taxes? CBO estimates tax revenue to be 19.1% of GDP next year. A full percent above historic averages.

Libe rals like to manipulate facta in order to sound smart. Fallacies are truly all they have.


CBO is wrong almost all of the time. If you look at their projections, say, on the debt, they have been wrong almost 80% of the time in their forecasts. They have been wrong up to 40%. Also, if tax revenue is higher as a percent of GDP due to tax hikes, why would anyone doubt that, especially when the economy is barely growing but taxes are growing a lot? Says nothing about the next year. Heck, could raise taxes by 50% and expect a bigger revenue next year. Doesn't mean it is smart.
 
2013-03-18 04:22:25 PM

Thunderpipes: Is this a serious post? Really? You really think our current interest payments are only 160 billion a year?


Inflation is a two way street, its bad for goods and services and great for debt.

Again, fiat currency, you can farking explain that!
 
2013-03-18 04:23:44 PM

DamnYankees: The deficit as a percentage of GDP has gone down every year Obama has been in office.


Stop trying, you're arguing with a person who has at best a grade school level of economics understanding
 
2013-03-18 04:24:59 PM

DamnYankees: Thunderpipes: Obama is adding a trillion a year to the debt.

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/ir/ir_expense.htm

The deficit as a percentage of GDP has gone down every year Obama has been in office.



So? You are really proud of trillion dollar deficits because they are a tiny bit less trilliony than last year? Great, balanced budget in what, 125 years?

I spend $25,000 I didn't have last year, but this year I will only spend $24,000 I don't have!!! I am a financial genius!!!!

DERP!!!
 
2013-03-18 04:25:38 PM

MyKingdomForYourHorse: Thunderpipes: Is this a serious post? Really? You really think our current interest payments are only 160 billion a year?

Inflation is a two way street, its bad for goods and services and great for debt.


Inflation isn't necessarily bad for goods and services as long as wages keep pace. What it's unequivocally bad for is savings (i.e. lenders).
 
2013-03-18 04:26:14 PM

MyKingdomForYourHorse: DamnYankees: The deficit as a percentage of GDP has gone down every year Obama has been in office.

Stop trying, you're arguing with a person who has at best a grade school level of economics understanding


Then you and he are stuck in the uterus. The moron is arguing that Obama is financially responsible. Only a retarded spider monkey would think that.
 
2013-03-18 04:26:44 PM

SlothB77: Ultimately, it is up to the banks not to assume risk they cannot handle. They weren't forced into making those contracts, were they?


I've not absolved the banks. I am implicating the accomplices. Loans are (basically) two party contracts. Both parties have an obligation to proceed cautiously.
 
2013-03-18 04:26:47 PM

Evil High Priest: That world? Where we dominated all manufacturing after WWII? That's never coming back.


Not with that kind of attitude it isn't.
 
2013-03-18 04:27:09 PM

Thunderpipes: So? You are really proud of trillion dollar deficits because they are a tiny bit less trilliony than last year? Great, balanced budget in what, 125 years?


I'm not proud of it, but I'm not worried about it. Our current deficits are a little bit high, but close to sustainable.
 
2013-03-18 04:29:29 PM

Evil High Priest: BigNumber12: Day_Old_Dutchie: The economic problems we have right now can be simply summed up.

Too many middle-men making too much money doing no productive work - essentially paper shuffling manipulating "financial instruments"

We as a society need to get back to actually making things or providing services to each other rather than just playing the stock market like a personal casino.

I like you.

That world? Where we dominated all manufacturing after WWII? That's never coming back. Nev. Er. All we have left is software dev and high-speed pizza delivery.


And Jimmie John's, sammiches, freakishly fast.

/#9, with pep

MyKingdomForYourHorse: It has become blindly obvious to me, thanks to this thread, that a whole metric ton of people have no idea how currency systems and macroeconomics work.

But whatever, you all keep on farking that chicken and being shills for those that took risks and do not wish to pay for them.


Why leave out the takers that won't produce?

The 48,000,000 that is just sitting there is dragging down the economy.

Go ahead, Macronaut, explain there externalities of the deadbeats, if you dare.
 
2013-03-18 04:33:32 PM

DamnYankees: Thunderpipes: So? You are really proud of trillion dollar deficits because they are a tiny bit less trilliony than last year? Great, balanced budget in what, 125 years?

I'm not proud of it, but I'm not worried about it. Our current deficits are a little bit high, but close to sustainable.


Wow.

I give up.

We are doomed.
 
2013-03-18 04:33:38 PM

BigNumber12: Evil High Priest: That world? Where we dominated all manufacturing after WWII? That's never coming back.

Not with that kind of attitude it isn't.


Exactly. We could easily bomb all of Europe back into the stone age again if we wanted to.
 
2013-03-18 04:34:56 PM

DamnYankees: Inflation isn't necessarily bad for goods and services as long as wages keep pace. What it's unequivocally bad for is savings (i.e. lenders).


True, I guess a more apt statement would be could be bad, but yes it is universally bad for savings and universally great for those with debt.

Slam1263: Go ahead, Macronaut, explain there externalities of the deadbeats, if you dare.


That generally speaking the deadbeat meme is a myth. Chew on this for size before you go railing on welfare dead beats. A large and significant portion of Walmarts workers are on public assistance because they do not make enough. They often do not make enough because they are kept at the legally defined part time status thus making them ineligible for health care plans and other benefits. Those needs, because they are needs...you know food, clothing, medicine, roofs... are subsidized through public assistance instead of them being paid a living wage that could sustain themselves as an individual.

So basically the biggest deadbeats out there, are corporate whores and multinational corporations.

But its ok, keep farking that chicken man!

Thunderpipes: Then you and he are stuck in the uterus. The moron is arguing that Obama is financially responsible. Only a retarded spider monkey would think that.


I didn't say I agree with him, but you two look like a team of cerebral palsy people trying to play water polo
 
2013-03-18 04:35:53 PM

DamnYankees: Our current deficits are a little bit high, but close to sustainable growing exponentially.


Fixed it for you.
 
2013-03-18 04:36:52 PM

Thunderpipes: DamnYankees: Thunderpipes: So? You are really proud of trillion dollar deficits because they are a tiny bit less trilliony than last year? Great, balanced budget in what, 125 years?

I'm not proud of it, but I'm not worried about it. Our current deficits are a little bit high, but close to sustainable.

Wow.

I give up.

We are doomed.


Doomed? What, exactly do you think will happen if the deficit increases? Specifically.
 
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