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(Chicago Trib)   American Airlines ordered to justify the $20 million severance given to their CEO. "Because he asked for it" apparently wasn't a good enough explanation   (chicagotribune.com) divider line 216
    More: Followup, American Airlines, executive directors, Americans, AMR Corp., unsecured creditors, United States bankruptcy court, US Airways Group, explanations  
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14411 clicks; posted to Business » on 18 Mar 2013 at 11:44 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-18 10:27:26 AM
"because he negotiated it as part of his compensation and the board agreed with it after consulting with third party pay consultants" is a good answer.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 10:34:19 AM
Trustee Tracy Hope Davis said in a filing on Friday to the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in New York that American had not explained why that level of severance pay and "sweeping changes" to various employee pay programs were permissible under the bankruptcy code.

In related news, Tracy Hope Davis just got kicked out of all the good country clubs.

tenpoundsofcheese

Bankruptcy court is not bound by prior negotiations, contracts, solemn vows, or even the opinion of pay consultants.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 10:41:25 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: "because he negotiated it as part of his compensation and the board agreed with it after consulting with third party pay consultants" is a good answer.


Not very.
 
2013-03-18 10:42:26 AM
Obviously that man needs a tax cut. Can't have $20 million without a tax cut!
 
2013-03-18 11:09:03 AM

Weaver95: Obviously that man needs a tax cut. Can't have $20 million without a tax cut!


rich white guy leaving a company
HOW could he live without 20 cash for a leaving bonus ???
 
2013-03-18 11:26:28 AM
Chapter 11 nulls all existing contracts and requires an almost unilateral re-write of obligations to creditors through the Chapter 11 plan, unless the case dismisses.  Even provisions such as "survives bankruptcy" are null; the power of the bankruptcy court supersedes pre-petition agreements.

The objection on its face has merit; they are committing 20 mil that could be disbursed to unsecured creditors, and instead giving it to some guy who basically lost his job.  The Trustee would be well within his powers to order a refund to be paid to creditors.  They are lucky he has only objected and not filed a motion to force turnover.
 
2013-03-18 11:33:01 AM
I'd have strong words with my Union Rep.

"What the eff are we paying you for? He does all his own negotiations and look what he gets!!"

- Disgruntled Union Member
 
2013-03-18 11:47:53 AM

ZAZ: Bankruptcy court is not bound by prior negotiations, contracts, solemn vows, or even the opinion of pay consultants.


Just ask AA's pilots.
 
2013-03-18 11:48:40 AM
Just let them eat Cake!!!

and please, U.S. Government, continue to allow the airline companies to merge into each other to create even larger companies and less competition. it can only help.


God bless, Uncle Sam.

--a Patriotic Amerian.
 
2013-03-18 11:48:50 AM
10lbofbatshiatcrazy has zero problem with folks getting screwed out of their pensions, but god forbid the 1%er take a hit to his golden parachute, because socialism!
 
2013-03-18 11:49:38 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: "because he negotiated it as part of his compensation and the board agreed with it after consulting with third party pay consultants" is a good answer.



its a good answer, all  right.   but hardly a Solution.
 
2013-03-18 11:50:50 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: "because he negotiated it as part of his compensation and the board agreed with it after consulting with third party pay consultants" is a good answer.


Which would probably pass muster, if they didn't all sit on each others boards and act as consultants for each other over what should be their pay and suitable compensation.
 
2013-03-18 11:50:54 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: "because he negotiated it as part of his compensation and the board agreed with it after consulting with third party pay consultants" is a good answer.


Oh look, someone doesn't understand how bankruptcy works.  Though, I can't say that I'm particularly surprised that you're once again proudly flying your ignoramus flag.
 
2013-03-18 11:50:58 AM

Weaver95: Obviously that man needs a tax cut. Can't have $20 million without a tax cut!



damn it!   if these clowns would just go back to cutting taxes, these problems would never have sprouted in the first place.
 
2013-03-18 11:51:51 AM
It added that the payments would "motivate a strong management team during the integration process" to make the merger a success.

These same people will tell you that increasing pay for the rank and file will make them lazy.
 
2013-03-18 11:51:54 AM
Contracts can be voided in the interests of the public, especially when they are imposed by greedy unio...

...wait, it's for a CEO platinum parachute?

Contracts are sacred, invioable bonds of trust that cannot be broken under any circumstances.
 
2013-03-18 11:52:18 AM

Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: ZAZ: Bankruptcy court is not bound by prior negotiations, contracts, solemn vows, or even the opinion of pay consultants.

Just ask AA's pilots.



i didn't know Alcoholics Anonymous had pilots.   kewl.
 
2013-03-18 11:52:55 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: "because he negotiated it as part of his compensation and the board agreed with it after consulting with third party pay consultants" is a good answer.


Or, alternately "a surprisingly large number of supposedly intelligent people had previously agreed to allow him to make off with an absurd sum of money regardless of his actual performance, the performance of the company as a whole and even if it is detrimental to the continuing operations of the company". I don't see why they can't just be honest about it.

Sure, it was in his contract. I can guarantee you if there were a couple hundred soon to be laid-off run-of-the-mill employees who had clauses like that in their contracts (likely collectively equalling a whole lot less than $20 million) the company would be falling all over themselves trying to find ways to invalidate those contracts.
 
2013-03-18 11:52:58 AM
This bozo doesn't deserve the Polish Doorknob.
 
2013-03-18 11:53:18 AM

Linux_Yes: i didn't know Alcoholics Anonymous had pilots.   kewl.


Why do you think they invented autopilot?
 
2013-03-18 11:53:21 AM

Linux_Yes: tenpoundsofcheese: "because he negotiated it as part of his compensation and the board agreed with it after consulting with third party pay consultants" is a good answer.


its a good answer, all  right.   but hardly a Solution.


Unless the contracts were from those union thugs that 'negotiate' for the workers.  Those useless tits shouldn't the rights to even look upon the face of their glorious corporate masters who are benevolent enough to deign to allow them to work at their premises!
 
2013-03-18 11:53:38 AM

Linux_Yes: Just let them eat Cake!!!

and please, U.S. Government, continue to allow the airline companies to merge into each other to create even larger companies and less competition. it can only help.


God bless, Uncle Sam.

--a Patriotic Amerian.


Amerian Airlies - Now with Cheaper Pilots!!
 
2013-03-18 11:55:29 AM
Not sure why the creditors should be left hanging out to dry on $20M when the company is in bankruptcy.

I would call shenanigans on that.
 
2013-03-18 11:56:44 AM
It's only $19.9M.  Nice troll jorb.
 
2013-03-18 11:56:55 AM
Stop telling your betters what they can and can't have. This guy is a Maker, so obviously deserves whatever largesse God sees fit to bestow upon him.
 
2013-03-18 11:57:23 AM
What's wrong with you looters? Ayn Rand would be ashamed of you. He's a CEO. He's a Rock Star. By the very definition of CEO in American business he deserves every penny he can get. Who do you hanger-ons think built this nation. When Atlas asked what he should do, shrug, I said.
 
2013-03-18 11:57:50 AM

vudutek: 10lbofbatshiatcrazy has zero problem with folks getting screwed out of their pensions, but god forbid the 1%er take a hit to his golden parachute, because socialism!


The thing is I have seen this attitude all over. Kinda makes you sick.
 
2013-03-18 11:58:24 AM
I don't know how they could expect him to get by on less than $15 million. The man probably has mouths to feed FFS!
 
2013-03-18 11:59:04 AM
www.aidthoughts.org
 
2013-03-18 11:59:37 AM
Well, cause he needed to buy shiat
 
2013-03-18 12:00:05 PM

trotsky: vudutek: 10lbofbatshiatcrazy has zero problem with folks getting screwed out of their pensions, but god forbid the 1%er take a hit to his golden parachute, because socialism!

The thing is I have seen this attitude all over. Kinda makes you sick.


And then these idiots wonder why they lose elections...
 
2013-03-18 12:00:35 PM
Severance pay beyond 2 weeks salary equivalent should be relegated lower than unsecured debt.
 
2013-03-18 12:00:39 PM

A Shambling Mound: Sure, it was in his contract. I can guarantee you if there were a couple hundred soon to be laid-off run-of-the-mill employees who had clauses like that in their contracts (likely collectively equalling a whole lot less than $20 million) the company would be falling all over themselves trying to find ways to invalidate those contracts.


I'm sure they've already succeeded invalidating most employees PTO payouts and the like.
 
2013-03-18 12:01:04 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: "because he negotiated it as part of his compensation and the board agreed with it after consulting with third party pay consultants" is a good answer.


Why do I get the feeling you would champion the return of debtor prisons?
 
2013-03-18 12:03:17 PM

MindStalker: A Shambling Mound: Sure, it was in his contract. I can guarantee you if there were a couple hundred soon to be laid-off run-of-the-mill employees who had clauses like that in their contracts (likely collectively equalling a whole lot less than $20 million) the company would be falling all over themselves trying to find ways to invalidate those contracts.

I'm sure they've already succeeded invalidating most employees PTO payouts and the like.


Well of course! Agreements with little people arent 'for realz'. Only contracts with the elite are binding, and only when it benefits the already super rich.
 
2013-03-18 12:04:28 PM

Linux_Yes: Just let them eat Cake!!!

and please, U.S. Government, continue to allow the airline companies to merge into each other to create even larger companies and less competition. it can only help.


God bless, Uncle Sam.

--a Patriotic Amerian.


It's done wonders for the banking industry. Seriously, what could go wrong?
 
2013-03-18 12:07:30 PM
Here's an idea:

20 Million golden parachute

Divided by:

Non-management employees 79,444

=

251.74 bonus check to all the employees... is it much? not really. Did they earn it? you bet...
 
2013-03-18 12:08:33 PM
Thanks Obama.

Or

I blame global warming.
 
kab
2013-03-18 12:10:20 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: "because he negotiated it as part of his compensation and the board agreed with it after consulting with third party pay consultants" is a good answer.


Wow, the CEO ballwasher brigade hit this thread in record time.
 
2013-03-18 12:11:35 PM

Weaver95: Obviously that man needs a tax cut. Can't have $20 million without a tax cut!


How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?

/had to s-t-r-e-t-c-h for that one
//oh well, it's Monday
 
2013-03-18 12:12:48 PM
it is kind of a farce to pay $20 mil to the guy who took over and will give up the position all during bankruptcy.

didnt stop other airlines from doing the same thing.

...guess the point im getting at chapter 11 bankruptcy is stupidly written.
 
2013-03-18 12:16:49 PM
Under the new bankruptcy laws, he isn't allowed to be given something that is more than 10 times the standard for that company's non-management employees. In this case, the mean severance package for AA would have to be something like $1.9million PER EMPLOYEE for him to legally be allowed to walk with $20m.

This is a better explination of it.
 
2013-03-18 12:18:36 PM

CeroX: 251.74 bonus check to all the employees... is it much? not really. Did they earn it? you bet...



I wouldn't be so quick with that, have you flown AA lately??
 
2013-03-18 12:19:53 PM
He's getting $20M "leaving" American when it merges with US Airlines.

He remains chairman of the combined company.
  cuddlebuggery.com
 
2013-03-18 12:20:46 PM

ZAZ: Bankruptcy court is not bound by prior negotiations, contracts, solemn vows, or even the opinion of pay consultants.


It is if you're a bank, and while AA is not, it was part of the "too big to fail" club.
 
2013-03-18 12:21:16 PM
25.media.tumblr.com
"He's very persuasive."
 
2013-03-18 12:22:59 PM
The company said the proposed employee arrangements were found to be reasonable by pay consultants retained by its unsecured creditors committee

It was the damned pay consultants again!

DAMN YOU PAY CONSULTANTS!
 
2013-03-18 12:23:52 PM
Vulture Capitalism is a form of capitalism.
 
2013-03-18 12:32:04 PM
Give him nothing.
 
2013-03-18 12:33:52 PM

Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: Linux_Yes: i didn't know Alcoholics Anonymous had pilots.   kewl.

Why do you think they invented autopilot?


That's not far off.

http://www.milehighclub.com/about/founder.html
 
2013-03-18 12:33:59 PM

HotWingConspiracy: It added that the payments would "motivate a strong management team during the integration process" to make the merger a success.

These same people will tell you that increasing pay for the rank and file will make them lazy.


The only possible response a rational person could provide to someone saying what you have quoted with a straight face would be a swift kick in the nuts. Once the response has been provided you let them roll around on the floor for a while and consider where that interaction may have gone wrong.

I am totally not kidding about that, either.
 
2013-03-18 12:34:40 PM
'Merican Airlines
 
2013-03-18 12:36:03 PM

CeroX: Here's an idea:

20 Million golden parachute

Divided by:

Non-management employees 79,444

=

251.74 bonus check to all the employees... is it much? not really. Did they earn it? you bet...


Another interesting way to look at it, is that 80,000 people did $250 worth of work just to  pay one guy for losing his job.
 
2013-03-18 12:36:23 PM

HotWingConspiracy: It added that the payments would "motivate a strong management team during the integration process" to make the merger a success.

These same people will tell you that increasing pay for the rank and file will make them lazy.


So much this!
 
2013-03-18 12:37:15 PM
Hmmm, it would create the world's largest air carrier and the world's largest suck.
 
2013-03-18 12:38:30 PM
How much did they spend on a "pay consultant"?

"We wanna cut this guy loose, how much should we pay him?"
"Iunno. Hey, Bob, how much did we say the CEO of Home Depot was worth a few years back? 250M? Hmmm. He took some shiat for that, and the economy'shiat the skids since then. How about $20M?"
"Cool. Let's go to Hooters for lunch; send the e-mail from the table and the client pays."

// really, how much grunt work does it take?
// far more than it should, evidently
// and those "consultants" didn't think about shareholders?
// that's probably a million or few wasted that NO ONE will recover
 
2013-03-18 12:39:43 PM

Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: tenpoundsofcheese: "because he negotiated it as part of his compensation and the board agreed with it after consulting with third party pay consultants" is a good answer.

Oh look, someone doesn't understand how bankruptcy works.  Though, I can't say that I'm particularly surprised that you're once again proudly flying your ignoramus flag.


Now I have a mental image of tendpoundsofhodor's room with a bunch of Derp State pennants on the walls.
 
2013-03-18 12:40:43 PM
I love the smell of sarcasm in the morning.
 
2013-03-18 12:41:09 PM

Linux_Yes: Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: ZAZ: Bankruptcy court is not bound by prior negotiations, contracts, solemn vows, or even the opinion of pay consultants.

Just ask AA's pilots.


i didn't know Alcoholics Anonymous had pilots.   kewl.


As a matter of fact... They do (PDF). Rather famous gentleman, in fact, particularly AFTER  his arrest and subsequent getting his shiat together.
 
2013-03-18 12:41:10 PM

Linux_Yes: Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: ZAZ: Bankruptcy court is not bound by prior negotiations, contracts, solemn vows, or even the opinion of pay consultants.

Just ask AA's pilots.


i didn't know Alcoholics Anonymous had pilots.   kewl.


Jack Daniels is my co-pilot.

 Signed,
 Capt. Morgan

// The Captain has turned off the "No Smoking" sign, light 'em if you got 'em
// Kindly refrain from using the Air Sickness Bag as a urinal
// Thank you for flying A.A. !!!
 
2013-03-18 12:45:07 PM
Meanwhile AA has given me such crappy insurance that I had to pay almost entirely out of pocket for a surgery I had recently. Not to mention spending a lot of effort to ensure my department "gets to keep our individual voice" (ie. keep the unions out). To be fair, my department VOTED to keep the union out, but there sure was an insane amount of effort by the higher ups to convince everyone to vote no that could have been devoted to say, i don't know, improving customer service maybe?
 
2013-03-18 12:47:17 PM

kab: Wow, the CEO ballwasher brigade hit this thread in record time.


If he hadn't, his supervisor would have called him in to ask why. You gotta keep on your toes when you're shilling for pay.
 
2013-03-18 12:48:18 PM
Do you know how much work it is to bring a company to bankruptcy? Why these poor CEOs have to make multiple trips in their private jets to their fabulous Bermudan villas, attend board meetings, keep up with the latest trends in biz-speak, make bad decisions that they can later blame on a VP, write occasional nonsensical memos to staff, recommend trendy business books to senior management, attend three hour lunches, and make sure their assistant answers their email. It's brutal work, but these unsung heroes do it every day.
 
2013-03-18 12:48:43 PM

Elandriel: The objection on its face has merit; they are committing 20 mil that could be disbursed to unsecured creditors, and instead giving it to some guy who basically lost his job.

completely destroyed the company because of his incompetence...
FTFM...
 
2013-03-18 12:50:39 PM

ZAZ: Bankruptcy court is not bound by prior negotiations, contracts, solemn vows, or even the opinion of pay consultants.


Bingo.

There's a reason I have tenpoundsofcheese farkied as "ten pounds of derp".  He's either a very short-bus special Farker incapable of operating outside a Fox-Limbaugh field, or performing some truly wonderful performance art.  Unfortunately Poe's Law prevents me from knowing which one, a sort of internet Heisenberg's Uncertainty effect.
 
2013-03-18 12:51:23 PM

trotsky: vudutek: 10lbofbatshiatcrazy has zero problem with folks getting screwed out of their pensions, but god forbid the 1%er take a hit to his golden parachute, because socialism!

The thing is I have seen this attitude all over. Kinda makes you sick.


Tell me about it.  When did we become a nation of jelly whiners.
 
2013-03-18 12:51:44 PM
You know he asked for 21 million but we negotiated him down. It took weeks of meetings with lawyers and accountants and fiduciary experts but we finally arrived at an amount we could all be comfortable with.

So actually, we saved the company a million dollars? Where's our big thank you from the customer? A million bucks is a lot of money. But no. All we hear is "You gave some guy 20 million to leave" and "What's this $25 feet on the carpet surcharge?"
 
2013-03-18 12:52:16 PM

CeroX: Here's an idea:

20 Million golden parachute

Divided by:

Non-management employees 79,444

=

251.74 bonus check to all the employees... is it much? not really. Did they earn it? you bet...


So you're fine with ripping off the people who are owed money, you just want to change who gets it?
 
2013-03-18 12:53:26 PM

Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: tenpoundsofcheese: "because he negotiated it as part of his compensation and the board agreed with it after consulting with third party pay consultants" is a good answer.

Oh look, someone doesn't understand how bankruptcy works.  Though, I can't say that I'm particularly surprised that you're once again proudly flying your ignoramus flag.


oh look, someone doesn't understand how labor law works under bankruptcy.
Not all contracts are treated equally
 
2013-03-18 12:55:38 PM
twimg0-a.akamaihd.net
We're scrapping the plan for the new GNB headquarters. This recession is killing us.  We're cutting anything non-essential. And I have a lot of tough choices to make at the bi-quarterly retreat in Saint Croix.
 
2013-03-18 12:56:00 PM

Elandriel: Chapter 11 nulls all existing contracts


No, that is wrong.
(I assume you mean "nullifies" instead of "nulls" since "null" is a noun, not a verb.)
 
2013-03-18 12:56:54 PM
farking parasite.
 
2013-03-18 12:57:31 PM

BMFPitt: So you're fine with ripping off the people who are owed money, you just want to change who gets it?


I just want to rip off greedy union parasites who also have legally binding contracts and are owed money.

Can you help me figure out a way to justify compensating CEOs while voiding union contracts?
 
2013-03-18 12:57:55 PM

BMFPitt: CeroX: Here's an idea:

20 Million golden parachute

Divided by:

Non-management employees 79,444

=

251.74 bonus check to all the employees... is it much? not really. Did they earn it? you bet...

So you're fine with ripping off the people who are owed money, you just want to change who gets it?


Ok smart ass...

We'll go ahead and throw the CEO a bonus

$20M golden parachute / 79,445  Still =  251.74

There ya go CEO, a company build on the backs of the employees and you "earned" your bonus... the same as everyone else...
 
2013-03-18 12:58:19 PM
Aside from allowing yourself to feel morally superior to someone who has been much more successful than you, what's the point of being outraged about the fiscal operations of a corporation? No one is forcing you to use the product so if you don't like the company, don't use them.  Use of technological advancements is not a right or a necessity.  If the company wants to give this guy 20 million then I don't have a problem with it.  He may have done a shiatty job as far as we know but imagine how much he'd get if he had done a better job.  If he had produced a product exactly to your liking would 20 million be justified in your eyes?  The fact of it is it doesn't need to be justified, it's their money, they can do with it as they please, and they will.
 
2013-03-18 01:02:15 PM
He needs that $20 million to replace the cracked leather seats in his personal Learjet.  How is he going to fly his friends to the Superbowl when the leather seats in it are cracked?
 
2013-03-18 01:03:38 PM
CeroX:

There ya go CEO, a company build on the backs of the employees and you "earned" your bonus... the same as everyone else...

Are you saying the current employees built the company?  I didn't know the company was that new.  Looks like they didn't do a very good job at building it since it is in bankruptcy.
 
2013-03-18 01:04:04 PM

DubtodaIll: Aside from allowing yourself to feel morally superior to someone who has been much more successful than you, what's the point of being outraged about the fiscal operations of a corporation? No one is forcing you to use the product so if you don't like the company, don't use them.  Use of technological advancements is not a right or a necessity.  If the company wants to give this guy 20 million then I don't have a problem with it.  He may have done a shiatty job as far as we know but imagine how much he'd get if he had done a better job.  If he had produced a product exactly to your liking would 20 million be justified in your eyes?  The fact of it is it doesn't need to be justified, it's their money, they can do with it as they please, and they will.


well, since it's only one company and one severance and it has never happened to any other corporation ever, and the overall budget of that company certainly is not effected in such things as support personnel or safety, and the costs associated with their product has zero effect on the pricing of their competitors, I guess we 'll just let it go.  But I'm still watching, as I have been for many, many years, just in case a major corporation makes an outrageous financial decision, even just once.
 
2013-03-18 01:06:52 PM

April Bond: He needs that $20 million to replace the cracked leather seats in his personal Learjet.  How is he going to fly his friends to the Superbowl when the leather seats in it are cracked?


At that persons level it would not be a Lear, more likely a Gulfstream, Lears are for the barely making it crowd
 
2013-03-18 01:07:09 PM

Nana's Vibrator: DubtodaIll: Aside from allowing yourself to feel morally superior to someone who has been much more successful than you, what's the point of being outraged about the fiscal operations of a corporation? No one is forcing you to use the product so if you don't like the company, don't use them.  Use of technological advancements is not a right or a necessity.  If the company wants to give this guy 20 million then I don't have a problem with it.  He may have done a shiatty job as far as we know but imagine how much he'd get if he had done a better job.  If he had produced a product exactly to your liking would 20 million be justified in your eyes?  The fact of it is it doesn't need to be justified, it's their money, they can do with it as they please, and they will.

well, since it's only one company and one severance and it has never happened to any other corporation ever, and the overall budget of that company certainly is not effected in such things as support personnel or safety, and the costs associated with their product has zero effect on the pricing of their competitors, I guess we 'll just let it go.  But I'm still watching, as I have been for many, many years, just in case a major corporation makes an outrageous financial decision, even just once.


Well at least you're not wasting energy looking for things to be upset about instead of doing things that could put you in a situation where the actions of others have a smaller effect on your emotional well being.
 
2013-03-18 01:08:25 PM

The_Gallant_Gallstone: BMFPitt: So you're fine with ripping off the people who are owed money, you just want to change who gets it?

I just want to rip off greedy union parasites who also have legally binding contracts and are owed money.

Can you help me figure out a way to justify compensating CEOs while voiding union contracts?


Justify? No. But I'm sure you could venue shop in order to get that outcome.
 
2013-03-18 01:08:53 PM

DubtodaIll: Aside from allowing yourself to feel morally superior to someone who has been much more successful than you, what's the point of being outraged about the fiscal operations of a corporation? No one is forcing you to use the product so if you don't like the company, don't use them.  Use of technological advancements is not a right or a necessity.  If the company wants to give this guy 20 million then I don't have a problem with it.  He may have done a shiatty job as far as we know but imagine how much he'd get if he had done a better job.  If he had produced a product exactly to your liking would 20 million be justified in your eyes?  The fact of it is it doesn't need to be justified, it's their money, they can do with it as they please, and they will.


Because it's a public company and people have 401k's and other retirement plans invested in this business.  Their success or failure is far reaching.  Some people's livelihoods depend on air travel.  City's require tourists and businessmen to be able to fly in.  Interest rates are affected.  Local vendors.  Tourist stops.

No one is forcing you to fly, that is true.  But a company that large has an affect on so many other things that may not seem related at first.  Like in those little strip mall places, you have the grocery store, then a bunch of little shops like chinese food, pizza, nail salon, dollar store.  Those little guys better worry how the grocery store operates, because they live off the coat tails of that store.  If the grocery store closes, then the little guys will lose traffic and also g out of business.  So, that is why we should give a shiat about the fiscal operation of a corporation.
 
m00
2013-03-18 01:09:19 PM

limeyfellow: Which would probably pass muster, if they didn't all sit on each others boards and act as consultants for each other over what should be their pay and suitable compensation.


This
 
2013-03-18 01:11:18 PM

CeroX: BMFPitt: CeroX: Here's an idea:

20 Million golden parachute

Divided by:

Non-management employees 79,444

=

251.74 bonus check to all the employees... is it much? not really. Did they earn it? you bet...

So you're fine with ripping off the people who are owed money, you just want to change who gets it?

Ok smart ass...

We'll go ahead and throw the CEO a bonus

$20M golden parachute / 79,445  Still =  251.74

There ya go CEO, a company build on the backs of the employees and you "earned" your bonus... the same as everyone else...


How do you believe this proposal differs from your first one? You're still stealing from the creditors and dividing it up slightly differently.
 
2013-03-18 01:12:14 PM

stonicus: DubtodaIll: Aside from allowing yourself to feel morally superior to someone who has been much more successful than you, what's the point of being outraged about the fiscal operations of a corporation? No one is forcing you to use the product so if you don't like the company, don't use them.  Use of technological advancements is not a right or a necessity.  If the company wants to give this guy 20 million then I don't have a problem with it.  He may have done a shiatty job as far as we know but imagine how much he'd get if he had done a better job.  If he had produced a product exactly to your liking would 20 million be justified in your eyes?  The fact of it is it doesn't need to be justified, it's their money, they can do with it as they please, and they will.

Because it's a public company and people have 401k's and other retirement plans invested in this business.  Their success or failure is far reaching.  Some people's livelihoods depend on air travel.  City's require tourists and businessmen to be able to fly in.  Interest rates are affected.  Local vendors.  Tourist stops.

No one is forcing you to fly, that is true.  But a company that large has an affect on so many other things that may not seem related at first.  Like in those little strip mall places, you have the grocery store, then a bunch of little shops like chinese food, pizza, nail salon, dollar store.  Those little guys better worry how the grocery store operates, because they live off the coat tails of that store.  If the grocery store closes, then the little guys will lose traffic and also g out of business.  So, that is why we should give a shiat about the fiscal operation of a corporation.


You mean to tell me business owners actually have to work hard to beat the competition and survive in a dynamic economy and that there are a bunch of assholes out there trying to keep all the money for themselves and don't give a damn about your success or the negative macro-consequences of their actions? That's poppy-cock!
 
2013-03-18 01:12:35 PM

April Bond: He needs that $20 million to replace the cracked leather seats in his personal Learjet.  How is he going to fly his friends to the Superbowl when the leather seats in it are cracked?


See, that the problem right there.  If he had been paid a reasonable amount for the rare expertise and talent only a CEO of major companies posses, he would have had the non-cracking whale penis foreskin leather.  See what happens when you scrimp on the salary of those that are better than all others?
 
2013-03-18 01:13:58 PM
DubtodaIll:

Well at least you're not wasting energy looking for things to be upset about instead of doing things that could put you in a situation where the actions of others have a smaller effect on your emotional well being.

I'm reading this but all I'm hearing is "congratulations on never spending time in the Politics tab, good sir"
 
m00
2013-03-18 01:16:00 PM

DubtodaIll: Aside from allowing yourself to feel morally superior to someone who has been much more successful than you, what's the point of being outraged about the fiscal operations of a corporation? No one is forcing you to use the product so if you don't like the company, don't use them.  Use of technological advancements is not a right or a necessity.  If the company wants to give this guy 20 million then I don't have a problem with it.  He may have done a shiatty job as far as we know but imagine how much he'd get if he had done a better job.  If he had produced a product exactly to your liking would 20 million be justified in your eyes?  The fact of it is it doesn't need to be justified, it's their money, they can do with it as they please, and they will.


This is a heavily, heavily regulated industry, which means the free market isn't at play. I can't go start m00 Airlines with a 707 I keep in a barn. Is this a good idea? Absolutely. But if the government prevents competition to a service that I more-or-less have no alternative to using, then it is my business how the money is spent.
 
2013-03-18 01:16:00 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: CeroX:

There ya go CEO, a company build on the backs of the employees and you "earned" your bonus... the same as everyone else...

Are you saying the current employees built the company?  I didn't know the company was that new.  Looks like they didn't do a very good job at building it since it is in bankruptcy.


Unlike the current CEO, who was there from the beginning, amirite?

/here's your sign
 
2013-03-18 01:16:30 PM

DubtodaIll: stonicus: DubtodaIll: Aside from allowing yourself to feel morally superior to someone who has been much more successful than you, what's the point of being outraged about the fiscal operations of a corporation? No one is forcing you to use the product so if you don't like the company, don't use them.  Use of technological advancements is not a right or a necessity.  If the company wants to give this guy 20 million then I don't have a problem with it.  He may have done a shiatty job as far as we know but imagine how much he'd get if he had done a better job.  If he had produced a product exactly to your liking would 20 million be justified in your eyes?  The fact of it is it doesn't need to be justified, it's their money, they can do with it as they please, and they will.

Because it's a public company and people have 401k's and other retirement plans invested in this business.  Their success or failure is far reaching.  Some people's livelihoods depend on air travel.  City's require tourists and businessmen to be able to fly in.  Interest rates are affected.  Local vendors.  Tourist stops.

No one is forcing you to fly, that is true.  But a company that large has an affect on so many other things that may not seem related at first.  Like in those little strip mall places, you have the grocery store, then a bunch of little shops like chinese food, pizza, nail salon, dollar store.  Those little guys better worry how the grocery store operates, because they live off the coat tails of that store.  If the grocery store closes, then the little guys will lose traffic and also g out of business.  So, that is why we should give a shiat about the fiscal operation of a corporation.

You mean to tell me business owners actually have to work hard to beat the competition and survive in a dynamic economy and that there are a bunch of assholes out there trying to keep all the money for themselves and don't give a damn about your success or the negative macro-consequences of their ...


Your manner of dialogue is very cumbersome and awkward.  But you asked why it's our business.  I explained why.  It's not as complicated as you are trying to make it.
 
2013-03-18 01:16:34 PM

NightOwl2255: What's wrong with you looters? Ayn Rand would be ashamed of you. He's a CEO. He's a Rock Star. By the very definition of CEO in American business he deserves every penny he can get. Who do you hanger-ons think built this nation. When Atlas asked what he should do, shrug, I said.


Actually, if you have read any of Ayn Rand's works, you would know that Objectivism does not support the irrational greed rampant in our corporate culture. But then again, if any of the nutzo libertarians out there who spout off about going Galt could actually read, they would know that it does not support their craziness either.
 
2013-03-18 01:16:46 PM

wingnut396: If he had been paid a reasonable amount for the rare expertise and talent only a CEO of major companies posses, he would have had the non-cracking whale penis foreskin leather.


In fairness, there are a lot of knockoffs on the market. To the untrained eye and touch, it's very hard to differentiate between the high quality blue whale foreskin leather, and a cheap replacement such as sloth taint leather, which South American crime orgs flooded into the marketplace during the late 90's.
 
2013-03-18 01:17:16 PM

Nana's Vibrator: DubtodaIll:

Well at least you're not wasting energy looking for things to be upset about instead of doing things that could put you in a situation where the actions of others have a smaller effect on your emotional well being.

I'm reading this but all I'm hearing is "congratulations on never spending time in the Politics tab, good sir"


I don't think I've ever posted over there, from what I've read it's all bluster an no bollocks.  It's difficult to read sophists and take them at all seriously.
 
2013-03-18 01:17:27 PM
DubtodaIll:  what's the point of being outraged about the fiscal operations of a corporation?l.

It's a public corporation. The shareholder's money is being used for the private benefit of a few board members and top executives who loot the company.

It's a bankrupt corporation. It's assets belong to the the creditors. Not the for the private benefit of a few board members and top executives who loot the company.

It's a merging corporation. By reducing the airline industry to a few very large players, it allows a near-monopoly in many markets, meaning it can extract unwarranted high fares from a captive audience.
 
2013-03-18 01:17:31 PM
He's getting $20 million because people are stupid and lazy. If you don't take money from the stupid and lazy you are UNAmerican!!
 
2013-03-18 01:19:34 PM

Ctrl-Alt-Del: tenpoundsofcheese: Elandriel: Chapter 11 nulls all existing contracts

No, that is wrong.

It's close enough to correct that you look like an ass trying to argue against it

The term executory contract assumes a specialized meaning in some areas of law. In bankruptcy law, an executory contract is a contract in which continuing obligations exist on both sides of the contract. In this context, a trustee may assume or reject any executory contract or unexpired lease subject to court approval. [1] See e.g. 11 U.S.C. § 365.


And the contract was accepted when the merger was closed.
Now they want to re-negotiate it.
 
2013-03-18 01:21:10 PM

Killer Cars: wingnut396: If he had been paid a reasonable amount for the rare expertise and talent only a CEO of major companies posses, he would have had the non-cracking whale penis foreskin leather.

In fairness, there are a lot of knockoffs on the market. To the untrained eye and touch, it's very hard to differentiate between the high quality blue whale foreskin leather, and a cheap replacement such as sloth taint leather, which South American crime orgs flooded into the marketplace during the late 90's.


There are subtle differences between the foreskin and taint grains; for a nominal fee ($1000/Hr), my firm will positively identify the source for discerning clients, test quality of the treatment, and recommend further care and maintenance action plans.
 
2013-03-18 01:21:52 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: And the contract was accepted when the merger was closed.
Now they want to re-negotiate it.


The merger is not the bankruptcy
 
2013-03-18 01:22:57 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: I'd have strong words with my Union Rep.

"What the eff are we paying you for? He does all his own negotiations and look what he gets!!"

- Disgruntled Union Member


The goal of a Union is to make the Union stronger, not to increase the well-being of the individual worker. The benefits a Union provides are just placates to keep the workers working and as ubiquitous as possible so that as many workers are kept on the payroll as possible and the dues keep flowing in.
 
m00
2013-03-18 01:25:17 PM

sdd2000: April Bond: He needs that $20 million to replace the cracked leather seats in his personal Learjet.  How is he going to fly his friends to the Superbowl when the leather seats in it are cracked?

At that persons level it would not be a Lear, more likely a Gulfstream, Lears are for the barely making it crowd


Wow you are right. Lear is barely an upgrade from 1st class.

Lear
www.jet-time.net

gulfstream
www.aircraftinvestmentgroup.com

Makes having a Lear as your personal jet pretty embarrassing.
 
2013-03-18 01:25:29 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Ctrl-Alt-Del: tenpoundsofcheese: Elandriel: Chapter 11 nulls all existing contracts

No, that is wrong.

It's close enough to correct that you look like an ass trying to argue against it

The term executory contract assumes a specialized meaning in some areas of law. In bankruptcy law, an executory contract is a contract in which continuing obligations exist on both sides of the contract. In this context, a trustee may assume or reject any executory contract or unexpired lease subject to court approval. [1] See e.g. 11 U.S.C. § 365.

And the contract was accepted when the merger was closed.
Now they want to re-negotiate it.


What was accepted or rejected during the merger is irrelevant to whether or not the trustee can, or does NULL the contract during the bankruptcy.

Good lord, do you need help tying your shoes, too?
 
2013-03-18 01:27:32 PM

m00: sdd2000: April Bond: He needs that $20 million to replace the cracked leather seats in his personal Learjet.  How is he going to fly his friends to the Superbowl when the leather seats in it are cracked?

At that persons level it would not be a Lear, more likely a Gulfstream, Lears are for the barely making it crowd

Wow you are right. Lear is barely an upgrade from 1st class.

Lear
[www.jet-time.net image 640x515]

gulfstream
[www.aircraftinvestmentgroup.com image 500x333]

Makes having a Lear as your personal jet pretty embarrassing.


I think if I was an AA CEO I would just turn one of the big boys into a cruise ship in the sky.
 
2013-03-18 01:28:10 PM

mizchief: The goal of a Union is to make the Union stronger, not to increase the well-being of the individual worker. The benefits a Union provides are just placates to keep the workers working and as ubiquitous as possible so that as many workers are kept on the payroll as possible and the dues keep flowing in.


Yeah, unions just get in the way of companies which would otherwise shower their employees with great benefits and high pay.
 
2013-03-18 01:29:06 PM

jaytkay: DubtodaIll:  what's the point of being outraged about the fiscal operations of a corporation?l.

It's a public corporation. The shareholder's money is being used for the private benefit of a few board members and top executives who loot the company.

It's a bankrupt corporation. It's assets belong to the the creditors. Not the for the private benefit of a few board members and top executives who loot the company.

It's a merging corporation. By reducing the airline industry to a few very large players, it allows a near-monopoly in many markets, meaning it can extract unwarranted high fares from a captive audience.


It's also indicative of the poor attitude the people running these businesses. If the corporation I work for goes down the tubes because of poor management, that's a problem for me. If the management is poor because they don't need to care if it's good or not, that's a problem for me. So, yes, I do care about the fiscal operations of corporations, because they affect my life.
 
2013-03-18 01:29:54 PM
I have employees ask for a raise with basically that same logic all the time. Does not mean they get it though.
 
2013-03-18 01:30:07 PM
Guy needs a -

meme
 
2013-03-18 01:31:23 PM

Ctrl-Alt-Del: tenpoundsofcheese: Ctrl-Alt-Del: tenpoundsofcheese: Elandriel: Chapter 11 nulls all existing contracts

No, that is wrong.

It's close enough to correct that you look like an ass trying to argue against it

The term executory contract assumes a specialized meaning in some areas of law. In bankruptcy law, an executory contract is a contract in which continuing obligations exist on both sides of the contract. In this context, a trustee may assume or reject any executory contract or unexpired lease subject to court approval. [1] See e.g. 11 U.S.C. § 365.

And the contract was accepted when the merger was closed.
Now they want to re-negotiate it.

What was accepted or rejected during the merger is irrelevant to whether or not the trustee can, or does NULL the contract during the bankruptcy.


Wrong.  The contract was already assumed under the bankruptcy.
 
2013-03-18 01:31:49 PM
wonderpodonline.com
such a message it took two to get here
 
m00
2013-03-18 01:32:21 PM

mizchief: I think if I was an AA CEO I would just turn one of the big boys into a cruise ship in the sky.


Harder to land on the airstrip that comes with your private villa. I mean, with only 20 million dollar golden parachute money you're not going to become a billionaire and get to live on a private island with a full-sized private airport.

You have to really feel for these CEOs. At a measly 20 million dollars here and there, they're like the 99% of the 1%.
 
2013-03-18 01:36:41 PM
Don't like it? Don't fly AA then. Really not that complicated.
 
2013-03-18 01:39:15 PM

Alonjar: CeroX: Here's an idea:

20 Million golden parachute

Divided by:

Non-management employees 79,444

=

251.74 bonus check to all the employees... is it much? not really. Did they earn it? you bet...

Another interesting way to look at it, is that 80,000 people did $250 worth of work just to  pay one guy for losing his job.


Probably an average of two days work for each of them.

And the other problem with all this is if you did give a $250 bonus to every employee, the total taxes collected on those $250 checks would FAR outweigh what this clown will ever pay on his $20 million greasing.
 
2013-03-18 01:41:26 PM

Marcintosh: [wonderpodonline.com image 500x459]
such a message it took two to get here


"Your soul $20M is MINE!"

// awesomely bad flick
// Sonya Blade = Ms Veronica Vaughan (a fine piece of ayess)
 
2013-03-18 01:42:32 PM

The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: Don't like it? Don't fly AA then. Really not that complicated.


Don't you mean, "Don't like it? Retroactively don't loan money to AA, then."
 
2013-03-18 01:47:13 PM

Dr Dreidel: // Sonya Blade = Ms Veronica Vaughan (a fine piece of ayess)


Trust me... I know from experience dude!
 
2013-03-18 01:49:05 PM

Great_Milenko: Probably an average of two days work for each of them.

And the other problem with all this is if you did give a $250 bonus to every employee, the total taxes collected on those $250 checks would FAR outweigh what this clown will ever pay on his $20 million greasing.


Assuming two days work for each of them, that means his severance package cost 640 years of labor.  Or 16 people had to dedicate their entire lives (40 year career) just to cover his severance.
 
2013-03-18 01:50:17 PM

Weaver95: MindStalker: A Shambling Mound: Sure, it was in his contract. I can guarantee you if there were a couple hundred soon to be laid-off run-of-the-mill employees who had clauses like that in their contracts (likely collectively equalling a whole lot less than $20 million) the company would be falling all over themselves trying to find ways to invalidate those contracts.

I'm sure they've already succeeded invalidating most employees PTO payouts and the like.

Well of course! Agreements with little people arent 'for realz'. Only contracts with the elite are binding, and only when it benefits the already super rich.


encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
2013-03-18 01:51:20 PM

Killer Cars: In fairness, there are a lot of knockoffs on the market. To the untrained eye and touch, it's very hard to differentiate between the high quality blue whale foreskin leather, and a cheap replacement such as sloth taint leather, which South American crime orgs flooded into the marketplace during the late 90's.



I got burned by that myself. Protip: Don't buy your whale dong leather from a guy named Rodrigo who does business out of a Del Taco.


My Corolla just looks ridiculous now.
 
2013-03-18 01:51:24 PM

BMFPitt: CeroX: Here's an idea:

20 Million golden parachute

Divided by:

Non-management employees 79,444

=

251.74 bonus check to all the employees... is it much? not really. Did they earn it? you bet...

So you're fine with ripping off the people who are owed money, you just want to change who gets it?


Ripping off the workers is fine, in other words. You just want to change who gets paid to the investors.
 
2013-03-18 01:53:40 PM

April Bond: He needs that $20 million to replace the cracked leather seats in his personal Learjet.  How is he going to fly his friends to the Superbowl when the leather seats in it are cracked?


I hear he tried saddle soap and it didnt work so he had to put towels down.....TOWLS FFS!!
 
2013-03-18 01:55:04 PM
i172.photobucket.com
 
2013-03-18 01:56:42 PM
And the rich wonder why we disapprove of them....
 
2013-03-18 01:56:55 PM
tenpoundsofcheese (farkied: It ain't cheese): CeroX:

There ya go CEO, a company build on the backs of the employees and you "earned" your bonus... the same as everyone else...

Are you saying the current employees built the company?  I didn't know the company was that new.  Looks like they didn't do a very good job at building it since it is in bankruptcy.


Remember, boys and girls:

* If a company does well, the credit belongs to the CEO and the board of directors.
* If a company does poorly, the blame goes to the rank and file, especially if they're evul Union Thugs.
 
2013-03-18 01:57:27 PM
His contract became void once it went to bankruptcy court. Renegotiate for half and still walk out a millionaire.

Ta da!
 
2013-03-18 01:59:52 PM

Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: BMFPitt: CeroX: Here's an idea:

20 Million golden parachute

Divided by:

Non-management employees 79,444

=

251.74 bonus check to all the employees... is it much? not really. Did they earn it? you bet...

So you're fine with ripping off the people who are owed money, you just want to change who gets it?

Ripping off the workers is fine, in other words. You just want to change who gets paid to the investors.


Please elaborate on how you believe they are being ripped off. And creditors != investors.
 
2013-03-18 02:00:20 PM
The company said the proposed employee arrangements were found to be reasonable by pay consultants retained by its unsecured creditors committee.
It added that the payments would "motivate a strong management team during the integration process" to make the merger a success.


Blah blah blah blah...

Translation: He is part of a hyper rich, do nothing elite class and is thus entitled to huge amounts of money.
 
2013-03-18 02:02:43 PM
"so they don't get sued" is a great answer

I realize all the grubby proles out there hate this, because $20m is more than they'll ever see. However, if you look at history, the solution to wealth inequality is not to go after the rich, it's to reduce the number of poor.

Keep encouraging welfare babies & illegal immigration, proles.
 
2013-03-18 02:04:14 PM

m00: sdd2000: April Bond: He needs that $20 million to replace the cracked leather seats in his personal Learjet.  How is he going to fly his friends to the Superbowl when the leather seats in it are cracked?

At that persons level it would not be a Lear, more likely a Gulfstream, Lears are for the barely making it crowd

Wow you are right. Lear is barely an upgrade from 1st class.

Lear
[www.jet-time.net image 640x515]

gulfstream
[www.aircraftinvestmentgroup.com image 500x333]

Makes having a Lear as your personal jet pretty embarrassing.


you may want to put that in terms farkers will remember or appreciate....

Lear:

i.imgur.com

Gulfstream:

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-03-18 02:04:26 PM

BMFPitt: The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: Don't like it? Don't fly AA then. Really not that complicated.

Don't you mean, "Don't like it? Retroactively don't loan money to AA, then."


Those ATSB grants/loans to the airline industry ended up turning something like a $200 million profit. And that was over ten years ago.

I don't understand people who kvetch constantly about stuff that really doesn't concern them.
 
m00
2013-03-18 02:05:55 PM

hitlersbrain: Translation: He is part of a hyper rich, do nothing elite class and is thus entitled to huge amounts of money.


Sometimes, I can't wait for the revolution. The shiattier life gets for the rest of us, the less we have to lose.
 
2013-03-18 02:07:06 PM

sodomizer: Keep encouraging welfare babies & illegal immigration, proles.


DEFUND PLANNED PARENTHOOD!
 
2013-03-18 02:07:16 PM

m00: hitlersbrain: Translation: He is part of a hyper rich, do nothing elite class and is thus entitled to huge amounts of money.

Sometimes, I can't wait for the revolution. The shiattier life gets for the rest of us, the less we have to lose.


And yet, you are fine with hundreds of millions of your money going to politicians......

make some sense. Only revolution is going to be lazy bastards will eventually need to start working.
 
2013-03-18 02:07:57 PM

sodomizer: Keep encouraging welfare babies & illegal immigration, proles


Because if this guy doesn't get $20M, he'll just go out and have a few welfare babies and import a thousand illegal immigrants.

Thanks for the tip. Whew, we almost goofed big time!
 
2013-03-18 02:09:21 PM

mizchief: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I'd have strong words with my Union Rep.

"What the eff are we paying you for? He does all his own negotiations and look what he gets!!"

- Disgruntled Union Member

The goal of a Union is to make the Union stronger, not to increase the well-being of the individual worker. The benefits a Union provides are just placates to keep the workers working and as ubiquitous as possible so that as many workers are kept on the payroll as possible and the dues keep flowing in.


Are Union workers paid more and do they enjoy more benefits than non-union workers? Yes? Well there ya go,
 
2013-03-18 02:09:59 PM

The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: BMFPitt: The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: Don't like it? Don't fly AA then. Really not that complicated.

Don't you mean, "Don't like it? Retroactively don't loan money to AA, then."

Those ATSB grants/loans to the airline industry ended up turning something like a $200 million profit. And that was over ten years ago.

I don't understand people who kvetch constantly about stuff that really doesn't concern them.


How is that relevant to the unsecured creditors whose $20m is being stolen?
 
2013-03-18 02:10:39 PM

Phil Moskowitz: Vulture Capitalism is a form of capitalism.


sure
but why arent we shooting the vultures?
they are ugly and spread disease, right ...
 
m00
2013-03-18 02:11:03 PM

Thunderpipes: And yet, you are fine with hundreds of millions of your money going to politicians......


I am? Where did I say that?
 
2013-03-18 02:14:58 PM

jaytkay: mizchief: The goal of a Union is to make the Union stronger, not to increase the well-being of the individual worker. The benefits a Union provides are just placates to keep the workers working and as ubiquitous as possible so that as many workers are kept on the payroll as possible and the dues keep flowing in.

Yeah, unions just get in the way of companies which would otherwise shower their employees with great benefits and high pay.


If you aren't being compensated as well as you think you should be, then quit and go get a better job. If the whole industry treats you like shiat, then take some night classes and change industries. If all you can do is biatch and moan and have to get a Union boss to fight for you, then bend over and shell out your dues.
 
2013-03-18 02:16:03 PM

The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: Don't like it? Don't fly AA then. Really not that complicated.


Except that our government uses my tax dollars to bail these farkers out when they fail.
 
2013-03-18 02:16:08 PM

BMFPitt: The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: BMFPitt: The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: Don't like it? Don't fly AA then. Really not that complicated.

Don't you mean, "Don't like it? Retroactively don't loan money to AA, then."

Those ATSB grants/loans to the airline industry ended up turning something like a $200 million profit. And that was over ten years ago.

I don't understand people who kvetch constantly about stuff that really doesn't concern them.

How is that relevant to the unsecured creditors whose $20m is being stolen?


Is he stealing it from you? Did he use a gun?

It was negotiated with the board. If it doesn't pass muster, the bankruptcy judge will stop it. Again, why would you care unless you were a shareholder or employee? If that's the case, direct your ire at the BoD.

Or keep kvetching, it's up to you.
 
2013-03-18 02:16:22 PM

Weaver95: Obviously that man needs a tax cut. Can't have $20 million without a tax cut!


What a good liberal you have become. All delusion of being a libertarian has vanished.
 
2013-03-18 02:17:32 PM

Nana's Vibrator: DubtodaIll: Aside from allowing yourself to feel morally superior to someone who has been much more successful than you,


You have a myopic way of measuring success. He's a colossal failure in everything except being a douchebag.
 
2013-03-18 02:19:56 PM

The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: BMFPitt: The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: BMFPitt: The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: Don't like it? Don't fly AA then. Really not that complicated.

Don't you mean, "Don't like it? Retroactively don't loan money to AA, then."

Those ATSB grants/loans to the airline industry ended up turning something like a $200 million profit. And that was over ten years ago.

I don't understand people who kvetch constantly about stuff that really doesn't concern them.

How is that relevant to the unsecured creditors whose $20m is being stolen?

Is he stealing it from you? Did he use a gun?

It was negotiated with the board. If it doesn't pass muster, the bankruptcy judge will stop it. Again, why would you care unless you were a shareholder or employee? If that's the case, direct your ire at the BoD.

Or keep kvetching, it's up to you.



Yes, it was a fairly and objectively negotiated contract by a group of elitist uber rich men who just so happen to be very likely to negotiate for each other on other contracts.   Who could have a problem with this?
 
2013-03-18 02:19:57 PM
Don't worry Farkers, this poor entitled douchebag will get his money, most likely after some fist shaking and sky ranting by the plebs.   No court, government, or authority in America is going to deny him his rightful suitcase full of cash.
 
2013-03-18 02:20:57 PM

hitlersbrain: mizchief: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I'd have strong words with my Union Rep.

"What the eff are we paying you for? He does all his own negotiations and look what he gets!!"

- Disgruntled Union Member

The goal of a Union is to make the Union stronger, not to increase the well-being of the individual worker. The benefits a Union provides are just placates to keep the workers working and as ubiquitous as possible so that as many workers are kept on the payroll as possible and the dues keep flowing in.

Are Union workers paid more and do they enjoy more benefits than non-union workers? Yes? Well there ya go,


Only in industries where they have the government to back up their inevitable failure. Otherwise it just becomes and averaging out where the best workers that would be getting even higher salaries because they are fought after by the competing businesses, are instead just split with the knuckle draggers that only work hard enough not to get fired.
 
2013-03-18 02:20:58 PM
They gave it to him to keep his hands off the non-ruined portion of the company. The investors made it clear he was not to be involved in operations for the merger to happen. The only way to ensure this was to pay the extortion so his ego would be mollified thus saving the company from bankruptcy and attaining their assets.

They would have been better off letting the company fail, buying the liquidated assets and moving on instead of being strong-armed by the pilots/union of the FAILED airline. But they wanted to save the jobs of folks who ran the company into the ground and did so.


/Ear to the scuttlebutt behind the counters.
 
2013-03-18 02:21:04 PM

mizchief: The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: Don't like it? Don't fly AA then. Really not that complicated.

Except that our government uses my tax dollars to bail these farkers out when they fail.


1. Call your congressman

2. ATSB loans turned a small profit.

I don't think highly of AA's management either. After they cajoled AA's unions into givebacks and concessions in 2004(?), the company turned an annual profit of around $210M, then gave management types $195M in bonuses.
 
2013-03-18 02:22:41 PM

DubtodaIll: The fact of it is it doesn't need to be justified, it's their money, they can do with it as they please, and they will.


You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.  In bankruptcy, it's not the company's money any longer, it's the creditor's money.  And they, through the courts, get to decide how it's spent.  Thus, they do need to be prepared to justify it.
 
2013-03-18 02:23:36 PM

jaytkay: mizchief: The goal of a Union is to make the Union stronger, not to increase the well-being of the individual worker. The benefits a Union provides are just placates to keep the workers working and as ubiquitous as possible so that as many workers are kept on the payroll as possible and the dues keep flowing in.

Yeah, unions just get in the way of companies which would otherwise shower their employees with great benefits and high pay.


Golden showers are a KIND of shower...
 
2013-03-18 02:24:58 PM

sodomizer: "so they don't get sued" is a great answer

I realize all the grubby proles out there hate this, because $20m is more than they'll ever see. However, if you look at history, the solution to wealth inequality is not to go after the rich, it's to reduce the number of poor.

Keep encouraging welfare babies & illegal immigration, proles.


I'll bite, but only long enough to point out just how farking out of your mind you must be to actually believe anything you just wrote.
 
2013-03-18 02:24:58 PM

DubtodaIll: Aside from allowing yourself to feel morally superior to someone who has been much more successful than you, what's the point of being outraged about the fiscal operations of a corporation? ...  The fact of it is it doesn't need to be justified, it's their money, they can do with it as they please, and they will.


Aside from you demonstrating a serious lack of understanding that airlines are among the most heavily-subsidized industries on the planet, what's the point of your post?  Airlines get subsidies, tax preferences, and the federal government handles their security at no cost to them, and they still manage to lose billions of dollars every year. The feeling I get when I watch them back a dumptruck full of money to the well-appointed home of yet another failed CEO is more than just "moral outrage," it's goddamn fury at watching an infrastructurally-crucial business that is heavily supported by my tax dollars being run like a private club that I have to pay for but am not allowed to join. And watching simps like you come in here with your grossly-uninformed-yet-still-somehow-patronizing "What's the big deal?" attitude isn't helping my blood pressure, either.
 
2013-03-18 02:25:03 PM

InfrasonicTom: The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: BMFPitt: The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: BMFPitt: The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: Don't like it? Don't fly AA then. Really not that complicated.

Don't you mean, "Don't like it? Retroactively don't loan money to AA, then."

Those ATSB grants/loans to the airline industry ended up turning something like a $200 million profit. And that was over ten years ago.

I don't understand people who kvetch constantly about stuff that really doesn't concern them.

How is that relevant to the unsecured creditors whose $20m is being stolen?

Is he stealing it from you? Did he use a gun?

It was negotiated with the board. If it doesn't pass muster, the bankruptcy judge will stop it. Again, why would you care unless you were a shareholder or employee? If that's the case, direct your ire at the BoD.

Or keep kvetching, it's up to you.


Yes, it was a fairly and objectively negotiated contract by a group of elitist uber rich men who just so happen to be very likely to negotiate for each other on other contracts.   Who could have a problem with this?


Right. There's a class of elites conspiring to keep hard-working 'muricans poor. Aren't you late for a drum circle somewhere?
 
2013-03-18 02:25:21 PM

Musikslayer: Nana's Vibrator: DubtodaIll: Aside from allowing yourself to feel morally superior to someone who has been much more successful than you,

You have a myopic way of measuring success. He's a colossal failure in everything except being a douchebag.


Do you know that he was a failure? Maybe he was, or maybe he was brought into a failing company and did as good as job as anyone could have. Maybe he only agreed to use his skills at that company if he was promised a certain amount of severance if let go before his other stock options or bonus or other forms of compensation would pay of had he been at the company for 20 years.

I don't really know, therefore i'm not passing judgement, just general mockery.
 
2013-03-18 02:28:08 PM

mizchief: hitlersbrain: mizchief: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I'd have strong words with my Union Rep.

"What the eff are we paying you for? He does all his own negotiations and look what he gets!!"

- Disgruntled Union Member

The goal of a Union is to make the Union stronger, not to increase the well-being of the individual worker. The benefits a Union provides are just placates to keep the workers working and as ubiquitous as possible so that as many workers are kept on the payroll as possible and the dues keep flowing in.

Are Union workers paid more and do they enjoy more benefits than non-union workers? Yes? Well there ya go,

Only in industries where they have the government to back up their inevitable failure. Otherwise it just becomes and averaging out where the best workers that would be getting even higher salaries because they are fought after by the competing businesses, are instead just split with the knuckle draggers that only work hard enough not to get fired.


I've worked long enough to know that competent, hard work at blue collar level jobs (and most non-management white-collar jobs) is never noticed by those at the top. Things like Unions will always be needed to give workers a decent standard of living.
 
2013-03-18 02:28:58 PM
www.aphrodite-mgmt.com
 
2013-03-18 02:29:49 PM

The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: mizchief: The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: Don't like it? Don't fly AA then. Really not that complicated.

Except that our government uses my tax dollars to bail these farkers out when they fail.

1. Call your congressman

2. ATSB loans turned a small profit.

I don't think highly of AA's management either. After they cajoled AA's unions into givebacks and concessions in 2004(?), the company turned an annual profit of around $210M, then gave management types $195M in bonuses.


Calling congressmen doesn't do shiat unless you have thousands of dollars to donate to their campaigns, as for every person that calls, there are 100 more that just vote for who ever they see on TV the most. This is why we must prevent them from having this much power in the first place. 

If I go to Vegas and put my life savings on black, then win, does that make me a good finical planner? If the loan wasn't risky a private bank would have made the loan, not the Feds.
 
2013-03-18 02:32:01 PM

The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: BMFPitt: The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: BMFPitt: The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: Don't like it? Don't fly AA then. Really not that complicated.

Don't you mean, "Don't like it? Retroactively don't loan money to AA, then."

Those ATSB grants/loans to the airline industry ended up turning something like a $200 million profit. And that was over ten years ago.

I don't understand people who kvetch constantly about stuff that really doesn't concern them.

How is that relevant to the unsecured creditors whose $20m is being stolen?

Is he stealing it from you? Did he use a gun?

It was negotiated with the board. If it doesn't pass muster, the bankruptcy judge will stop it. Again, why would you care unless you were a shareholder or employee? If that's the case, direct your ire at the BoD.

Or keep kvetching, it's up to you.


Due to similar past experience, I sure as fark won't be owning any airline stock directly, nor the stock of any company who negotiates such terms with their employees.

Why do you believe my ire is directed anywhere other than the board?
 
2013-03-18 02:35:13 PM

hitlersbrain: mizchief: hitlersbrain: mizchief: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I'd have strong words with my Union Rep.

"What the eff are we paying you for? He does all his own negotiations and look what he gets!!"

- Disgruntled Union Member

The goal of a Union is to make the Union stronger, not to increase the well-being of the individual worker. The benefits a Union provides are just placates to keep the workers working and as ubiquitous as possible so that as many workers are kept on the payroll as possible and the dues keep flowing in.

Are Union workers paid more and do they enjoy more benefits than non-union workers? Yes? Well there ya go,

Only in industries where they have the government to back up their inevitable failure. Otherwise it just becomes and averaging out where the best workers that would be getting even higher salaries because they are fought after by the competing businesses, are instead just split with the knuckle draggers that only work hard enough not to get fired.

I've worked long enough to know that competent, hard work at blue collar level jobs (and most non-management white-collar jobs) is never noticed by those at the top. Things like Unions will always be needed to give workers a decent standard of living.


That's kind of my point. To me, that was motivation not to be a blue-collar worker and go learn to do something valuable. If you have no ambition then a Union job is probably your best bet, just don't think that the Union bosses are out to help you as much as they are themselves.
 
2013-03-18 02:38:51 PM

mizchief: hitlersbrain: mizchief: hitlersbrain: mizchief: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I'd have strong words with my Union Rep.

"What the eff are we paying you for? He does all his own negotiations and look what he gets!!"

- Disgruntled Union Member

The goal of a Union is to make the Union stronger, not to increase the well-being of the individual worker. The benefits a Union provides are just placates to keep the workers working and as ubiquitous as possible so that as many workers are kept on the payroll as possible and the dues keep flowing in.

Are Union workers paid more and do they enjoy more benefits than non-union workers? Yes? Well there ya go,

Only in industries where they have the government to back up their inevitable failure. Otherwise it just becomes and averaging out where the best workers that would be getting even higher salaries because they are fought after by the competing businesses, are instead just split with the knuckle draggers that only work hard enough not to get fired.

I've worked long enough to know that competent, hard work at blue collar level jobs (and most non-management white-collar jobs) is never noticed by those at the top. Things like Unions will always be needed to give workers a decent standard of living.

That's kind of my point. To me, that was motivation not to be a blue-collar worker and go learn to do something valuable. If you have no ambition then a Union job is probably your best bet, just don't think that the Union bosses are out to help you as much as they are themselves.


Which is why these guys need to make a strong comeback.

www.iww.org
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 02:38:55 PM
jaytkay: It's a public corporation. The shareholder's money is being used for the private benefit of a few board members and top executives who loot the company.

It's a bankrupt corporation. It's assets belong to the the creditors. Not the for the private benefit of a few board members and top executives who loot the company.


It may be time for a hard cap on total compensation for executives of public or bankrupt companies, say $1 million per year or .05% of US taxable income. In the 1980s Congress tried to limit compensation to $1 million per year but underestimated how hard companies would work to get around the limit. The law made higher salaries come out of post-tax rather than pre-tax funds.

For private, solvent companies, whatever the shareholders will give you subject to rules on minority shareholder protection.
 
2013-03-18 02:39:40 PM
This guy doesn't deserve shiat.

Being the CEO for one of the largest companies around really isn't that hard. Any top level finance grad can pretty much do it.

And all CEO's should always be held solely responsible for the companies financial health, because there just aren't any other factors at play. Every dollar the company makes or loses is all based on personal decisions he makes.
 
2013-03-18 02:41:28 PM

hitlersbrain: mizchief: hitlersbrain: mizchief: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I'd have strong words with my Union Rep.

"What the eff are we paying you for? He does all his own negotiations and look what he gets!!"

- Disgruntled Union Member

The goal of a Union is to make the Union stronger, not to increase the well-being of the individual worker. The benefits a Union provides are just placates to keep the workers working and as ubiquitous as possible so that as many workers are kept on the payroll as possible and the dues keep flowing in.

Are Union workers paid more and do they enjoy more benefits than non-union workers? Yes? Well there ya go,

Only in industries where they have the government to back up their inevitable failure. Otherwise it just becomes and averaging out where the best workers that would be getting even higher salaries because they are fought after by the competing businesses, are instead just split with the knuckle draggers that only work hard enough not to get fired.

I've worked long enough to know that competent, hard work at blue collar level jobs (and most non-management white-collar jobs) is never noticed by those at the top. Things like Unions will always be needed to give workers a decent standard of living.


You keep using that word...


There are many companies out there that are non-union that have wonderful wages and benefits. But you have to be worth hiring and not some union schlep that sits around all day farking with time-clocks to get their extra minute of OT, etc. etc. Unions are unnecessary in this day and age when we have federal and state labor protection.

No one needs to go on strike because they have to pay 50 cents for a coffee in a vending machine. Well no one but unionized employees (Boeing) would dare say it affects their cost of living.
 
2013-03-18 02:42:22 PM
Justify the amount?

cuz it was in his contract, and unless and until the bankruptcy court rules otherwise, they are bound to the contract.

Bankruptcy court is free to change the amount as they see fit.


The amount of butt-hurt displayed here is ridiculous.
 
m00
2013-03-18 02:42:27 PM

Steven Cleamer: Being the CEO for one of the largest companies around really isn't that hard. Any top level finance grad can pretty much do it.


I would happily drive a company into the ground and bankrupt it for substantially less than a 20 million payout.
 
2013-03-18 02:43:20 PM

Steven Cleamer: This guy doesn't deserve shiat.

Being the CEO for one of the largest companies around really isn't that hard. Any top level finance grad can pretty much do it.

And all CEO's should always be held solely responsible for the companies financial health, because there just aren't any other factors at play. Every dollar the company makes or loses is all based on personal decisions he makes.


Any high-school drop-out can go to paid luncheons.
 
2013-03-18 02:44:54 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: "because he negotiated it as part of his compensation and the board agreed with it after consulting with third party pay consultants" is a good answer.


Then the same argument would apply to the pilots, flight attendants et al. They all had contracts but guess what, the company ran out of money and defaulted on debt so why does one man get his slice of the pie and the rest get farked?
 
2013-03-18 02:51:13 PM

Weaver95: Obviously that man needs a tax cut. Can't have $20 million without a tax cut!


Wrong. Obviously they need a taxpayer funded bailout so they can afford to pay their debts.
 
2013-03-18 02:52:30 PM

monoski: tenpoundsofcheese: "because he negotiated it as part of his compensation and the board agreed with it after consulting with third party pay consultants" is a good answer.

Then the same argument would apply to the pilots, flight attendants et al. They all had contracts but guess what, the company ran out of money and defaulted on debt so why does one man get his slice of the pie and the rest get farked?


You must be angry at your Democrat overlords then. Country is in the crapper, but Obama can casually spend 1 million in taxpayer money to gold with Tiger Woods. Oh the double standards.....
 
2013-03-18 02:53:33 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Ctrl-Alt-Del: tenpoundsofcheese: Ctrl-Alt-Del: tenpoundsofcheese: Elandriel: Chapter 11 nulls all existing contracts

No, that is wrong.

It's close enough to correct that you look like an ass trying to argue against it

The term executory contract assumes a specialized meaning in some areas of law. In bankruptcy law, an executory contract is a contract in which continuing obligations exist on both sides of the contract. In this context, a trustee may assume or reject any executory contract or unexpired lease subject to court approval. [1] See e.g. 11 U.S.C. § 365.

And the contract was accepted when the merger was closed.
Now they want to re-negotiate it.

What was accepted or rejected during the merger is irrelevant to whether or not the trustee can, or does NULL the contract during the bankruptcy.

Wrong.  The contract was already assumed under the bankruptcy.


Except that, contrary to your initial assertion, this benefit was not part of that contract

"On Feb. 22, eight days after the merger was announced as the vehicle for AMR to exit from bankruptcy protection, the two airlines filed a motion outlining some salary and benefit increases  for AMR's nonunion customer-service, reservations and support employee, as well as for front-line management and senior executives. For the executives, the arrangements include incentive plans, awards related to the merger integration, severance benefits and a retention program. "

This severance was proposed just a few weeks ago,  as part of the merger.  So again - whether or not these benefits are accepted or rejected as part of the merger by the bankruptcy trustee who is overseeing the merger as part of the bankruptcy proceedings is irrelevant to the assumption or rejection of his contract by the trustee.
 
2013-03-18 02:54:23 PM

Barricaded Gunman: DubtodaIll: Aside from allowing yourself to feel morally superior to someone who has been much more successful than you, what's the point of being outraged about the fiscal operations of a corporation? ...  The fact of it is it doesn't need to be justified, it's their money, they can do with it as they please, and they will.

Aside from you demonstrating a serious lack of understanding that airlines are among the most heavily-subsidized industries on the planet, what's the point of your post?  Airlines get subsidies, tax preferences, and the federal government handles their security at no cost to them, and they still manage to lose billions of dollars every year. The feeling I get when I watch them back a dumptruck full of money to the well-appointed home of yet another failed CEO is more than just "moral outrage," it's goddamn fury at watching an infrastructurally-crucial business that is heavily supported by my tax dollars being run like a private club that I have to pay for but am not allowed to join. And watching simps like you come in here with your grossly-uninformed-yet-still-somehow-patronizing "What's the big deal?" attitude isn't helping my blood pressure, either.


So what you're saying that if you deregulated the airlines and removed all subsidies they would have an easier time making money?
 
2013-03-18 02:56:12 PM

Steven Cleamer: This guy doesn't deserve shiat.

Being the CEO for one of the largest companies around really isn't that hard. Any top level finance grad can pretty much do it.

And all CEO's should always be held solely responsible for the companies financial health, because there just aren't any other factors at play. Every dollar the company makes or loses is all based on personal decisions he makes.


Then you agree that every problem the US has is now solely Obama's responsibility since he has total power and doesn't have a congress (Board of Directors) or a fickle populous (shareholders) to deal with.

But then again with an unlimited source of bailout funds behind you via a Union backed political force, maybe it really is that easy.
 
2013-03-18 03:10:38 PM

Thunderpipes: monoski: tenpoundsofcheese: "because he negotiated it as part of his compensation and the board agreed with it after consulting with third party pay consultants" is a good answer.

Then the same argument would apply to the pilots, flight attendants et al. They all had contracts but guess what, the company ran out of money and defaulted on debt so why does one man get his slice of the pie and the rest get farked?

You must be angry at your Democrat overlords then. Country is in the crapper, but Obama can casually spend 1 million in taxpayer money to gold with Tiger Woods. Oh the double standards.....


The point <-------------         --------------------------------->  Thunderderps

Ad hominem counter attacks in effort to prove your point is pretty on par with you.  Quite boring, really.
 
2013-03-18 03:16:42 PM

ReverendJynxed: There are many companies out there that are non-union that have wonderful wages and benefits. But you have to be worth hiring and not some union schlep that sits around all day farking with time-clocks to get their extra minute of OT, etc. etc. Unions are unnecessary in this day and age when we have federal and state labor protection.


You sound like a happy little serf. Got any of those uplifting work songs you could serenade your betters with? :)
 
2013-03-18 03:19:02 PM

DubtodaIll: So what you're saying that if you deregulated the airlines and removed all subsidies they would have an easier time making money?


No, what I'm saying is that if they really were a completely private company like you seem to believe, then I wouldn't give a flying handshake how they wasted their money. But they aren't, so I do.
 
2013-03-18 03:19:29 PM

mizchief: That's kind of my point. To me, that was motivation not to be a blue-collar worker and go learn to do something valuable. If you have no ambition then a Union job is probably your best bet, just don't think that the Union bosses are out to help you as much as they are themselves.


This attitude is what is wrong with this country. It is the core of why unions are hated and management loved. It is why we are becoming a service industry focused nation with a vast wealth divide. A majority of people actually think that working on a manufacturing line or as a plumber or construction worker or many other blue collar jobs are "dirty" jobs that are beneath them. It is why college degrees are considered necessary for even the most menial of office jobs (though they are not) - and why college is no longer about education unless it is for job training.

Until every surgeon, engineer and CEO has the ability to build their own phones, sports cars, homes, and grow their own food - the mechanic, farmer, plumber and factory worker are just as valuable to society.
 
2013-03-18 03:20:09 PM

JackieRabbit: Do you know how much work it is to bring a company to bankruptcy? Why these poor CEOs have to make multiple trips in their private jets to their fabulous Bermudan villas, attend board meetings, keep up with the latest trends in biz-speak, make bad decisions that they can later blame on a VP, write occasional nonsensical memos to staff, recommend trendy business books to senior management, attend three hour lunches, and make sure their assistant answers their email. It's brutal work, but these unsung heroes do it every day.


Interesting.  Sounds like a lot of senior military officers to me.

/Same shiat.  Those guys have the best "take care of our own" club around.
//Contractors make sure they hook up their soon to be retired officers with cush jobs
///Get all sorts of sweet deals while in the military, too.  The ultimate entitlement club, shall we say
 
2013-03-18 03:20:53 PM

Thunderpipes: monoski: tenpoundsofcheese: "because he negotiated it as part of his compensation and the board agreed with it after consulting with third party pay consultants" is a good answer.

Then the same argument would apply to the pilots, flight attendants et al. They all had contracts but guess what, the company ran out of money and defaulted on debt so why does one man get his slice of the pie and the rest get farked?

You must be angry at your Democrat overlords then. Country is in the crapper, but Obama can casually spend 1 million in taxpayer money to gold with Tiger Woods. Oh the double standards.....


Sorry Thunder I am a registered Republican. With that said I get pissed at everybody regardless of party these days.
 
2013-03-18 03:32:25 PM

ReverendJynxed: There are many companies out there that are non-union that have wonderful wages and benefits. But you have to be worth hiring and not some union schlep that sits around all day farking with time-clocks to get their extra minute of OT, etc. etc. Unions are unnecessary in this day and age when we have federal and state labor protection.

No one needs to go on strike because they have to pay 50 cents for a coffee in a vending machine. Well no one but unionized employees (Boeing) would dare say it affects their cost of living.


The companies offering a good wage only do so to compete with union waged salaries. Without them even those companies would lower wages to poverty levels (and beyond).

It's the nature of capitalism. Even if a company has a 'good heart' and wants to pay workers fairly, they'll be out competed by scumbag companies offering garbage wages.

As for being 'worth hiring', that's something the company has to work out with the Union. I'm guessing it usually means throwing out older workers who make a higher wage after working years in the company.

So long as corporations consider workers expendable resources, workers will need a counter force that's on their side (or go back to pretty much being slaves).
 
2013-03-18 03:34:13 PM

Barricaded Gunman: DubtodaIll: So what you're saying that if you deregulated the airlines and removed all subsidies they would have an easier time making money?

No, what I'm saying is that if they really were a completely private company like you seem to believe, then I wouldn't give a flying handshake how they wasted their money. But they aren't, so I do.


I know they're not a completely private company, they're a corporation that has done everything possible to get as much money as possible with as few costs as possible.  Also, since corporations are rarely held to account for their mistakes by the government they have little to no motivation to actually act in the interests of anyone but themselves.  I'm not sure where people get the idea that corporations are at all moral or even that they should be.  The silly part is that the government continues to use tax-payer money to fund this ridiculous behavior and then not punish the corporations they're funding when they don't behave in a way that is beneficial to the taxpayer.  I'm not old enough to remember this magical American place where corporations treated their employees with respect and cared about delivering products above the expectations of its customers.  But I'm not that young to still think the world actually operates by the ideals you're raised to believe.  Best I can figure is to fight hard for yourself and those close to you and let those whom you never come in contact with do the same.
 
2013-03-18 03:34:48 PM
blogs.courant.com

WHY DO YOU LIBRULS HATE CAPITALISM?

WHY DO YOU LIBRULS HATE AMERICA?


WHY?

WHY?????????
 
2013-03-18 03:57:49 PM

hitlersbrain: ReverendJynxed: There are many companies out there that are non-union that have wonderful wages and benefits. But you have to be worth hiring and not some union schlep that sits around all day farking with time-clocks to get their extra minute of OT, etc. etc. Unions are unnecessary in this day and age when we have federal and state labor protection.

No one needs to go on strike because they have to pay 50 cents for a coffee in a vending machine. Well no one but unionized employees (Boeing) would dare say it affects their cost of living.

The companies offering a good wage only do so to compete with union waged salaries. Without them even those companies would lower wages to poverty levels (and beyond).

It's the nature of capitalism. Even if a company has a 'good heart' and wants to pay workers fairly, they'll be out competed by scumbag companies offering garbage wages.

As for being 'worth hiring', that's something the company has to work out with the Union. I'm guessing it usually means throwing out older workers who make a higher wage after working years in the company.

So long as corporations consider workers expendable resources, workers will need a counter force that's on their side (or go back to pretty much being slaves).


Yeah, the .1% of engineers who are unionized are the only thing that keeps the rest of us from being paid $2 per hour.

// Was actually in a unionized engineer job for a year.
// Would have never gone on strike.
 
2013-03-18 04:02:33 PM

weltallica: [blogs.courant.com image 640x426]

WHY DO YOU LIBRULS HATE CAPITALISM?

WHY DO YOU LIBRULS HATE AMERICA?


WHY?

WHY?????????


Why can't that "REAL" American pointing at me put the fork down ?
 
2013-03-18 04:04:56 PM
$20 Mil ?  Jeez!  Doesn't that guy make enough off donuts already?
 
2013-03-18 04:09:44 PM

m00: mizchief: I think if I was an AA CEO I would just turn one of the big boys into a cruise ship in the sky.

Harder to land on the airstrip that comes with your private villa. I mean, with only 20 million dollar golden parachute money you're not going to become a billionaire and get to live on a private island with a full-sized private airport.

You have to really feel for these CEOs. At a measly 20 million dollars here and there, they're like the 99% of the 1%.


As CFO, Horton recieved a $200 million payout from At&T when it sold itself to Southwestern Bell.

He was already extremely wealthy before he came back to AA.
 
2013-03-18 04:16:06 PM

The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: BMFPitt: The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: Don't like it? Don't fly AA then. Really not that complicated.

Don't you mean, "Don't like it? Retroactively don't loan money to AA, then."

Those ATSB grants/loans to the airline industry ended up turning something like a $200 million profit. And that was over ten years ago.

I don't understand people who kvetch constantly about stuff that really doesn't concern them.


AA received over $500 million in government money and had damage claims capped at $2 billion ( the max their insurers would pay).
 
2013-03-18 04:17:27 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: CeroX:

There ya go CEO, a company build on the backs of the employees and you "earned" your bonus... the same as everyone else...

Are you saying the current employees CEO built the company?  I didn't know the company was that new.  Looks like they he didn't do a very good job at building it since it is in bankruptcy.


FTFY
 
2013-03-18 04:21:24 PM
"The salary of the chief executive of a large corporation is not a market award for achievement. It is frequently in the nature of a warm personal gesture by the individual to himself."

-- John Kenneth Galbraith
 
2013-03-18 04:22:20 PM

machodonkeywrestler: tenpoundsofcheese: CeroX:

There ya go CEO, a company build on the backs of the employees and you "earned" your bonus... the same as everyone else...

Are you saying the current employees CEO built the company?  I didn't know the company was that new.  Looks like they he didn't do a very good job at building it since it is in bankruptcy.

FTFY


You believe anyone is saying that?
 
2013-03-18 04:26:01 PM
Everybody is discounting the fact that he hit .341 over the season with 120 RBI and 42 HR.
 
2013-03-18 04:31:21 PM

Thunderpipes: monoski: tenpoundsofcheese: "because he negotiated it as part of his compensation and the board agreed with it after consulting with third party pay consultants" is a good answer.

Then the same argument would apply to the pilots, flight attendants et al. They all had contracts but guess what, the company ran out of money and defaulted on debt so why does one man get his slice of the pie and the rest get farked?

You must be angry at your Democrat overlords then. Country is in the crapper, but Obama can casually spend 1 million in taxpayer money to gold with Tiger Woods. Oh the double standards.....


You have contributed nothing to the discussion and have only thrown out accusations for which you have no proof. What a worthless existence you must have. It's sad, really. All that anger could have been spent doing something constructive. Instead you just change the topic when presented with facts that exist outside of the pathetic little walls you have set up around your mind.
 
2013-03-18 04:32:40 PM

limeyfellow: tenpoundsofcheese: "because he negotiated it as part of his compensation and the board agreed with it after consulting with third party pay consultants" is a good answer.

Which would probably pass muster, if they didn't all sit on each others boards and act as consultants for each other over what should be their pay and suitable compensation.


Yep. IIRC, some 80% of compensation committees decide that the CEO performed above average and should therefore get paid above the mean of the comparables. And that's on top of inflation in the selected comparables, picking larger, more complex companies that naturally pay their top execs more.
 
2013-03-18 04:45:44 PM

Psylence: ReverendJynxed: There are many companies out there that are non-union that have wonderful wages and benefits. But you have to be worth hiring and not some union schlep that sits around all day farking with time-clocks to get their extra minute of OT, etc. etc. Unions are unnecessary in this day and age when we have federal and state labor protection.

You sound like a happy little serf. Got any of those uplifting work songs you could serenade your betters with? :)


A serf because I'm not ignorant? Ok. Serf it is.

I'm retired by the way, I just worked at great non-union companies.

/retired "serf"
//better than a mafia stooge losing my money to a racket
 
2013-03-18 04:46:49 PM

hitlersbrain: ReverendJynxed: There are many companies out there that are non-union that have wonderful wages and benefits. But you have to be worth hiring and not some union schlep that sits around all day farking with time-clocks to get their extra minute of OT, etc. etc. Unions are unnecessary in this day and age when we have federal and state labor protection.

No one needs to go on strike because they have to pay 50 cents for a coffee in a vending machine. Well no one but unionized employees (Boeing) would dare say it affects their cost of living.

The companies offering a good wage only do so to compete with union waged salaries. Without them even those companies would lower wages to poverty levels (and beyond).

It's the nature of capitalism. Even if a company has a 'good heart' and wants to pay workers fairly, they'll be out competed by scumbag companies offering garbage wages.

As for being 'worth hiring', that's something the company has to work out with the Union. I'm guessing it usually means throwing out older workers who make a higher wage after working years in the company.

So long as corporations consider workers expendable resources, workers will need a counter force that's on their side (or go back to pretty much being slaves).


Except... LAWS.
 
2013-03-18 04:49:11 PM

kindms: weltallica: [blogs.courant.com image 640x426]

WHY DO YOU LIBRULS HATE CAPITALISM?

WHY DO YOU LIBRULS HATE AMERICA?


WHY?

WHY?????????

Why can't that "REAL" American pointing at me put the fork down ?


That real american is keeping people working. Someone has to feed the behemoths and that is a full time job for many. That's a job creator right there.
 
2013-03-18 04:49:56 PM

ReverendJynxed: kindms: weltallica: [blogs.courant.com image 640x426]

WHY DO YOU LIBRULS HATE CAPITALISM?

WHY DO YOU LIBRULS HATE AMERICA?


WHY?

WHY?????????

Why can't that "REAL" American pointing at me put the fork down ?

That real a

American is keeping people working. Someone has to feed the behemoths and that is a full time job for many. That's a job creator right there.

/FTFM
 
2013-03-18 04:54:06 PM
You jokers need to write a sternly worded tablet to Pharaoh.
 
2013-03-18 04:58:21 PM

hitlersbrain: Even if a company has a 'good heart' and wants to pay workers fairly, they'll be out competed by scumbag companies offering garbage wages.


The example of Costco and also of SAS say otherwise.
 
2013-03-18 05:04:43 PM

BMFPitt: machodonkeywrestler: tenpoundsofcheese: CeroX:

There ya go CEO, a company build on the backs of the employees and you "earned" your bonus... the same as everyone else...

Are you saying the current employees CEO built the company?  I didn't know the company was that new.  Looks like they he didn't do a very good job at building it since it is in bankruptcy.

FTFY

You believe anyone is saying that?


It's as valid as 10lbs comparison.
 
2013-03-18 05:24:52 PM

ZAZ: Bankruptcy court is not bound by prior negotiations, contracts, solemn vows, or even the opinion of pay consultants.


So, basically, looking through the Supreme Court's history of rulings on contract law, contracts are sacrosanct...until you're in bankruptcy, then all bets are off.
 
2013-03-18 05:31:49 PM

sodomizer: "so they don't get sued" is a great answer

I realize all the grubby proles out there hate this, because $20m is more than they'll ever see. However, if you look at history, the solution to wealth inequality is not to go after the rich, it's to reduce the number of poor.


The velocity of money would like a word with you.
 
2013-03-18 05:34:37 PM

machodonkeywrestler: BMFPitt: machodonkeywrestler: tenpoundsofcheese: CeroX:

There ya go CEO, a company build on the backs of the employees and you "earned" your bonus... the same as everyone else...

Are you saying the current employees CEO built the company?  I didn't know the company was that new.  Looks like they he didn't do a very good job at building it since it is in bankruptcy.

FTFY

You believe anyone is saying that?

It's as valid as 10lbs comparison.


His "comparison" was plainly sarcastic. Whereas you seem to actually believe that there are actual people who think the CEO in question built the company.
 
2013-03-18 05:34:52 PM

mizchief: hitlersbrain: mizchief: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I'd have strong words with my Union Rep.

"What the eff are we paying you for? He does all his own negotiations and look what he gets!!"

- Disgruntled Union Member

The goal of a Union is to make the Union stronger, not to increase the well-being of the individual worker. The benefits a Union provides are just placates to keep the workers working and as ubiquitous as possible so that as many workers are kept on the payroll as possible and the dues keep flowing in.

Are Union workers paid more and do they enjoy more benefits than non-union workers? Yes? Well there ya go,

Only in industries where they have the government to back up their inevitable failure.


Like banking?  :)
 
2013-03-18 05:36:47 PM

ReverendJynxed: hitlersbrain: mizchief: hitlersbrain: mizchief: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I'd have strong words with my Union Rep.

"What the eff are we paying you for? He does all his own negotiations and look what he gets!!"

- Disgruntled Union Member

The goal of a Union is to make the Union stronger, not to increase the well-being of the individual worker. The benefits a Union provides are just placates to keep the workers working and as ubiquitous as possible so that as many workers are kept on the payroll as possible and the dues keep flowing in.

Are Union workers paid more and do they enjoy more benefits than non-union workers? Yes? Well there ya go,

Only in industries where they have the government to back up their inevitable failure. Otherwise it just becomes and averaging out where the best workers that would be getting even higher salaries because they are fought after by the competing businesses, are instead just split with the knuckle draggers that only work hard enough not to get fired.

I've worked long enough to know that competent, hard work at blue collar level jobs (and most non-management white-collar jobs) is never noticed by those at the top. Things like Unions will always be needed to give workers a decent standard of living.

You keep using that word...


There are many companies out there that are non-union that have wonderful wages and benefits. But you have to be worth hiring and not some union schlep that sits around all day farking with time-clocks to get their extra minute of OT, etc. etc. Unions are unnecessary in this day and age when we have federal and state labor protection.


Know how I know you've never been down a Massey coal mine?
 
2013-03-18 05:40:55 PM

ReverendJynxed: hitlersbrain: ReverendJynxed: There are many companies out there that are non-union that have wonderful wages and benefits. But you have to be worth hiring and not some union schlep that sits around all day farking with time-clocks to get their extra minute of OT, etc. etc. Unions are unnecessary in this day and age when we have federal and state labor protection.

No one needs to go on strike because they have to pay 50 cents for a coffee in a vending machine. Well no one but unionized employees (Boeing) would dare say it affects their cost of living.

The companies offering a good wage only do so to compete with union waged salaries. Without them even those companies would lower wages to poverty levels (and beyond).

It's the nature of capitalism. Even if a company has a 'good heart' and wants to pay workers fairly, they'll be out competed by scumbag companies offering garbage wages.

As for being 'worth hiring', that's something the company has to work out with the Union. I'm guessing it usually means throwing out older workers who make a higher wage after working years in the company.

So long as corporations consider workers expendable resources, workers will need a counter force that's on their side (or go back to pretty much being slaves).

Except... LAWS.


Except...regulatory capture.
 
2013-03-18 06:17:08 PM

BMFPitt: machodonkeywrestler: BMFPitt: machodonkeywrestler: tenpoundsofcheese: CeroX:

There ya go CEO, a company build on the backs of the employees and you "earned" your bonus... the same as everyone else...

Are you saying the current employees CEO built the company?  I didn't know the company was that new.  Looks like they he didn't do a very good job at building it since it is in bankruptcy.

FTFY

You believe anyone is saying that?

It's as valid as 10lbs comparison.

His "comparison" was plainly sarcastic. Whereas you seem to actually believe that there are actual people who think the CEO in question built the company.


And you seem to make unwarranted assumptions about people's statements. But go ahead, see how that works out for you in life. I always assume 10 lbs is serious, since his posts are always Grade A 100% pants on head retarded.
 
2013-03-18 06:26:52 PM

machodonkeywrestler: BMFPitt: machodonkeywrestler: BMFPitt: machodonkeywrestler: tenpoundsofcheese: CeroX:

There ya go CEO, a company build on the backs of the employees and you "earned" your bonus... the same as everyone else...

Are you saying the current employees CEO built the company?  I didn't know the company was that new.  Looks like they he didn't do a very good job at building it since it is in bankruptcy.

FTFY

You believe anyone is saying that?

It's as valid as 10lbs comparison.

His "comparison" was plainly sarcastic. Whereas you seem to actually believe that there are actual people who think the CEO in question built the company.

And you seem to make unwarranted assumptions about people's statements. But go ahead, see how that works out for you in life. I always assume 10 lbs is serious, since his posts are always Grade A 100% pants on head retarded.


And I would think that someone who has been around here as long as you have might have learned something about the people who post here. Guess you're a little slow on the pick up.
 
2013-03-18 06:41:26 PM

limeyfellow: tenpoundsofcheese: "because he negotiated it as part of his compensation and the board agreed with it after consulting with third party pay consultants" is a good answer.

Which would probably pass muster, if they didn't all sit on each others boards and act as consultants for each other over what should be their pay and suitable compensation.


This.
 
2013-03-18 06:57:03 PM

IlGreven: ZAZ: Bankruptcy court is not bound by prior negotiations, contracts, solemn vows, or even the opinion of pay consultants.

So, basically, looking through the Supreme Court's history of rulings on contract law, contracts are sacrosanct...until you're in bankruptcy, then all bets are off.




It would be gamed, if not.
 
2013-03-18 08:25:01 PM

machodonkeywrestler: And you seem to make unwarranted assumptions about people's statements. But go ahead, see how that works out for you in life. I always assume 10 lbs is serious, since his posts are always Grade A 100% pants on head retarded.


Please elaborate on what assumptions you believe I have made about which statements.

Whereas you seem to have assumed that when tenpoundsofcheese mocked CeroX's claim that the 83 year old American Airlines was, "Buil[t] on the backs of the employees," then the only thing that he could have meant was that the outgoing CEO must have built that company.  I found this assumption to be amusing.
 
2013-03-18 09:36:11 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: "because he negotiated it as part of his compensation and the board agreed with it after consulting with third party pay consultants" is a good answer.


You are freaking retarded.  Do you actually have this little understanding about what bankruptcy courts do with contractual obligations?
 
2013-03-18 09:41:03 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Ctrl-Alt-Del: tenpoundsofcheese: Elandriel: Chapter 11 nulls all existing contracts

No, that is wrong.

It's close enough to correct that you look like an ass trying to argue against it

The term executory contract assumes a specialized meaning in some areas of law. In bankruptcy law, an executory contract is a contract in which continuing obligations exist on both sides of the contract. In this context, a trustee may assume or reject any executory contract or unexpired lease subject to court approval. [1] See e.g. 11 U.S.C. § 365.

And the contract was accepted when the merger was closed.
Now they want to re-negotiate it.


Apparently the answer to my question is "Yes."
 
2013-03-18 10:00:48 PM

Elandriel: Chapter 11 nulls all existing contracts and requires an almost unilateral re-write of obligations to creditors through the Chapter 11 plan, unless the case dismisses. Even provisions such as "survives bankruptcy" are null; the power of the bankruptcy court supersedes pre-petition agreements.


That's the key - he didn't join before the petition. He joined day of. He was hired to be a big gun to pull them through chapter 11 and merger. Lot of derp in this thread from people who didn't read RTFA and think he put them in bankruptcy.
 
2013-03-18 10:01:17 PM
 The answer is clearly because he is from an airline and not a big bank or transnational company.

 If you want a golden parachute you gotta play with the big boys.

/got nuthin'
//let them eat cake
///the cake is a lie
 
2013-03-19 12:34:26 AM

cybrwzrd: mizchief: That's kind of my point. To me, that was motivation not to be a blue-collar worker and go learn to do something valuable. If you have no ambition then a Union job is probably your best bet, just don't think that the Union bosses are out to help you as much as they are themselves.

This attitude is what is wrong with this country. It is the core of why unions are hated and management loved. It is why we are becoming a service industry focused nation with a vast wealth divide. A majority of people actually think that working on a manufacturing line or as a plumber or construction worker or many other blue collar jobs are "dirty" jobs that are beneath them. It is why college degrees are considered necessary for even the most menial of office jobs (though they are not) - and why college is no longer about education unless it is for job training.

Until every surgeon, engineer and CEO has the ability to build their own phones, sports cars, homes, and grow their own food - the mechanic, farmer, plumber and factory worker are just as valuable to society.


Either that or as a developed nation we continue to evolve and push the envelope in science, technology, and art  and let those countries that are struggling to survive take on the jobs that don't require education instead of clinging on to them and artificially inflating the wages of those who choose to squander the amazing opportunities they are born into.
 
2013-03-19 12:46:46 AM

PunGent: mizchief: hitlersbrain: mizchief: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I'd have strong words with my Union Rep.

"What the eff are we paying you for? He does all his own negotiations and look what he gets!!"

- Disgruntled Union Member

The goal of a Union is to make the Union stronger, not to increase the well-being of the individual worker. The benefits a Union provides are just placates to keep the workers working and as ubiquitous as possible so that as many workers are kept on the payroll as possible and the dues keep flowing in.

Are Union workers paid more and do they enjoy more benefits than non-union workers? Yes? Well there ya go,

Only in industries where they have the government to back up their inevitable failure.

Like banking?  :)


Banking is a whole 'nother scam on it's own. Google "where money comes from"
 
2013-03-19 08:25:57 AM

Silverstaff: ZAZ: Bankruptcy court is not bound by prior negotiations, contracts, solemn vows, or even the opinion of pay consultants.

Bingo.

There's a reason I have tenpoundsofcheese farkied as "ten pounds of derp".  He's either a very short-bus special Farker incapable of operating outside a Fox-Limbaugh field, or performing some truly wonderful performance art.  Unfortunately Poe's Law prevents me from knowing which one, a sort of internet Heisenberg's Uncertainty effect.


sort of a schrodinger's cat of derp
 
2013-03-19 02:42:39 PM

cybrwzrd: mizchief: That's kind of my point. To me, that was motivation not to be a blue-collar worker and go learn to do something valuable. If you have no ambition then a Union job is probably your best bet, just don't think that the Union bosses are out to help you as much as they are themselves.

This attitude is what is wrong with this country. It is the core of why unions are hated and management loved. It is why we are becoming a service industry focused nation with a vast wealth divide. A majority of people actually think that working on a manufacturing line or as a plumber or construction worker or many other blue collar jobs are "dirty" jobs that are beneath them. It is why college degrees are considered necessary for even the most menial of office jobs (though they are not) - and why college is no longer about education unless it is for job training.

Until every surgeon, engineer and CEO has the ability to build their own phones, sports cars, homes, and grow their own food - the mechanic, farmer, plumber and factory worker are just as valuable to society.


www.themidnightdiner.com
 
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