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(Fox News)   Problem: Farm animals are being abused while being taken to slaughter, do you A. Impose higher standards for animal welfare B. Prosecute those responsible for animal abuse or C. Make it illegal to record videos at the slaughterhouse   (foxnews.com) divider line 149
    More: Sick, standards, slaughter, video cameras, American Legislative Exchange Council, HSUS, state legislators, California State University-Chico  
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4741 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Mar 2013 at 3:12 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-17 10:30:02 PM  
Something, something, Upton Sinclair something Corporatocracy.
 
2013-03-17 10:39:21 PM  
Why is ALEC pumping so much money into this issue?
 
2013-03-17 11:21:28 PM  
If only cows had guns...

/bad cow pun
 
2013-03-17 11:23:28 PM  
Those who mistreat animals, even the animals we use as food are scumbags.

If you live in any states where these laws are proposed it is incumbent upon you to contact your legislators and let them know these laws are making them an accessory to animal abuse.
 
2013-03-17 11:49:11 PM  
Hmm, possibly Republican government, but banning the filming of cops has been across the board.  Let's just take a look...

5 of 6 GOP, and of course we're doing it.  And the California bill is GOP introduced.  Can't get in the way of profits now can we Republicans?  Must pray to the all mighty dollar.  I wonder which odious piece of shiat introduced our version of it.  Oh ALEC, I should have known.
 
2013-03-17 11:52:11 PM  

whither_apophis: If only cows had guns...

/bad cow pun


Yeah, then we'd steer clear of them.
 
2013-03-17 11:55:57 PM  
 
2013-03-18 12:39:10 AM  

GAT_00: Hmm, possibly Republican government, but banning the filming of cops has been across the board.  Let's just take a look...

5 of 6 GOP, and of course we're doing it.  And the California bill is GOP introduced.  Can't get in the way of profits now can we Republicans?  Must pray to the all mighty dollar.  I wonder which odious piece of shiat introduced our version of it.  Oh ALEC, I should have known.


What is that stream of consciousness? Beat poetery?

In case you didn't realize it the SCOTUS let stand a lower Court's decision about videotaping police in public is always allowed.
 
2013-03-18 12:56:12 AM  

feckingmorons: GAT_00: Hmm, possibly Republican government, but banning the filming of cops has been across the board.  Let's just take a look...

5 of 6 GOP, and of course we're doing it.  And the California bill is GOP introduced.  Can't get in the way of profits now can we Republicans?  Must pray to the all mighty dollar.  I wonder which odious piece of shiat introduced our version of it.  Oh ALEC, I should have known.

What is that stream of consciousness? Beat poetery?

In case you didn't realize it the SCOTUS let stand a lower Court's decision about videotaping police in public is always allowed.


1. they are police
2. its in public

Slaughterhouses are on private lands where civilians work.

/Just pointing that out. I am not taking a side in this post. Please accept this as neutral.
 
2013-03-18 12:56:45 AM  
Meat is murder.
 
2013-03-18 12:58:58 AM  

cman: 1. they are police2. its in publicSlaughterhouses are on private lands where civilians work./Just pointing that out. I am not taking a side in this post. Please accept this as neutral.


Yes, that is true. I'm not sure what our Beat Poet was on about in that whole post. Just trying to help him sort his meaning. Not that he can see anything I post, but that is his own choice.
 
2013-03-18 01:12:56 AM  

Bucky Katt: Meat is murder.


Tasty murder.
 
2013-03-18 01:24:28 AM  

Bucky Katt: Meat is murder.


external.ak.fbcdn.net
"And murder tastes good."
 
2013-03-18 01:27:42 AM  

Bucky Katt: Meat is murder.


images.starpulse.com


/free Nelson Mandela!
 
2013-03-18 01:46:45 AM  

ox45tallboy: Bucky Katt: Meat is murder.

[images.starpulse.com image 300x420]

/free Nelson Mandela!


we already freed him.

/Oh
 
2013-03-18 03:14:02 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-03-18 03:15:38 AM  
25.media.tumblr.com
The Answer is C.
 
2013-03-18 03:16:06 AM  
So... when it increases corporate revenues off the tax paying public using cameras to capture minor legal infractions is a good thing. And when it decreases corporate revenues it's a bad thing.

I want to become a corporation and stop being a person. Corporations get away with shiat that would have persons put away.
 
2013-03-18 03:22:20 AM  
It makes sense if you're a meat producer.
 
2013-03-18 03:22:34 AM  

ox45tallboy: Bucky Katt: Meat is murder.



/free Nelson Mandela!


Where? He's going for over $10/pound at my local bodega.
 
2013-03-18 03:31:15 AM  
I don't care if my food is tortured or cuddled.
 
2013-03-18 03:32:24 AM  
Video or it didn't happen
 
2013-03-18 03:33:23 AM  
The GOP rationale for this is really disgusting, it's total hypocrisy.  They're claiming they have to ban filming for the animal's sake, that people allowed to film would rather film than get help.
 
2013-03-18 03:33:27 AM  
There's a difference between torture and 'motivation'.
 
2013-03-18 03:34:45 AM  
PETA will be angry again. I wonder what bold gimmick they're gonna do to protest this one. Remember when PETA did a steamy controversial scene at the Superbowl 2 years ago.

32.cdn.bit2host.eu
 
2013-03-18 03:36:22 AM  

feckingmorons: Those who mistreat animals, even the animals we use as food are scumbags.


Yeah, this.
I don't have any moral issue with eating meat as I simply don't believe (no matter how much I love my pets) that animals are equivalent to persons, but I'm certainly not callous enough to think that they don't feel pain.  I don't want my meat tortured before I eat it, and anyone who would do such a thing must have a sense of empathy that is defective on an almost sociopathic level.  It is often mentioned (and it is true) that animal torture is a common behavior for young psycho/sociopaths.
 
2013-03-18 03:38:37 AM  
I'm ok with the banning of filming at slaughter houses. The business of butchering animals is never going to be pleasant.
 
2013-03-18 03:42:19 AM  
I'm surprised it's not pay-per-view.
 
2013-03-18 03:44:29 AM  

Gawdzila: feckingmorons: Those who mistreat animals, even the animals we use as food are scumbags.

Yeah, this.
I don't have any moral issue with eating meat as I simply don't believe (no matter how much I love my pets) that animals are equivalent to persons, but I'm certainly not callous enough to think that they don't feel pain.  I don't want my meat tortured before I eat it, and anyone who would do such a thing must have a sense of empathy that is defective on an almost sociopathic level.  It is often mentioned (and it is true) that animal torture is a common behavior for young psycho/sociopaths.


It's also a common behavior for those who have a hand in bringing meat to market. Curiously enough, folks who raise/slaughter livestock for a living aren't so delicate in their sensibilities as the vast majority of people who benefit from their labors...

Sorry to say, your diet hinges on a whole lot of people you'd probably rather not associate with. By necessity...
 
2013-03-18 03:44:58 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: I'm ok with the banning of filming at slaughter houses. The business of butchering animals is never going to be pleasant.


Came here to say basically this. Also who isn't to say some of this footage was cherry picked out of thousands of hours of recording. Show me a job or trade that is perfect in handling of their duties 100% of the time and I will show you a magic bean.

//doesn't agree with unwarranted animal abuse
//but people aren't perfect either
 
2013-03-18 03:46:23 AM  

Yogimus: I don't care if my food is tortured or cuddled.


actually meat that is less stressed when butchered has been proven to be better in taste. my value brand hot dogs probably came from tortured meat though but the chems cover it up pretty well.
 
2013-03-18 03:55:06 AM  
FTA: "[Other bills] make it a crime for someone such as an animal welfare advocate to lie on an application to get a job at a plant."

fireden.net
 
2013-03-18 03:55:21 AM  

Bucky Katt: Meat is murder.


ALEC is lobotomy.
 
2013-03-18 04:00:58 AM  

NewportBarGuy: Why is ALEC pumping so much money into this issue?


Your ALEC wants steak.
 
2013-03-18 04:01:50 AM  
All of these different bills are costing too much money to implement.

Let's just have one national law that says anyone responsible for a news story that increases the heart rate, respiration, or blood pressure of anyone in the Elite 1% will be guilty of attempted murder.

After that, we can do away with ALEC and save even more money.
 
2013-03-18 04:02:42 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: I'm ok with the banning of filming at slaughter houses. The business of butchering animals is never going to be pleasant.


Doesn't mean they should ban cameras.

The truth is life is vicious and bloody. People should know.

People should also know when is appropriate to show such videos and when is not.

You'll never legislate morality.
 
2013-03-18 04:02:44 AM  
Ag-gag laws, in five states. Welcome to another aspect of the corporate state.
 
2013-03-18 04:04:00 AM  

RabidJade: Also who isn't to say some of this footage was cherry picked out of thousands of hours of recording.


There's really no pleasant way to go about it.
 
2013-03-18 04:04:49 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: I'm ok with the banning of filming at slaughter houses. The business of butchering animals is never going to be pleasant.


Truth.

Now, back to watching The Walking Dead.
 
2013-03-18 04:07:40 AM  
www.tshirtroundup.com
 
2013-03-18 04:09:08 AM  

ox45tallboy: Hey, it worked for Abu Ghraib.


Works in middle schools, too.
 
2013-03-18 04:10:31 AM  

doglover: Mid_mo_mad_man: I'm ok with the banning of filming at slaughter houses. The business of butchering animals is never going to be pleasant.

Doesn't mean they should ban cameras.

The truth is life is vicious and bloody. People should know.

People should also know when is appropriate to show such videos and when is not.

You'll never legislate morality.




The problem is the trespassing and lying to obtain the footage
 
2013-03-18 04:17:23 AM  
ALEC has labeled those who interfere with animal operations "terrorists," though a spokesman said he wishes now that the organization had called its legislation the "Freedom to Farm Act" rather than the "Animal and Ecological Terrorism Act."

I think we can safely add "terrorist" and "terrorism" to the list of words that no longer have any actual meaning whatsoever aside from being a general pejorative. List already includes "socialist", "liberal", "statist" (thought I don't think that one ever actually had a proper meaning at all) and of course "intellectual elite".

Then there are words that aren't pejorative yet still meaningless such as "freedom" and "democracy." I'm pretty sure those two lost all meaning when they became synonymous with dropping bombs on people, or as we used to call it, "terrorism."
 
2013-03-18 04:19:26 AM  

7KQ201_McKittrick: Video or it didn't happen


Here  y'go.  Graphic.
 
2013-03-18 04:19:45 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: The problem is the trespassing and lying to obtain the footage


No need to pass laws against trespass, as that's ALREADY illegal.

As for the lying, that should be illegal, too.

However I am against bans and for breaking unjust laws. If people feel strongly enough about these movies to keep making them, it's a freedom of speech thing. If they get caught breaking the law, prosecute 'em for trespass and possibly falsified documents, but don't pass a ban. That's a dick move.
 
2013-03-18 04:22:13 AM  

gravebayne2: Yogimus: I don't care if my food is tortured or cuddled.

actually meat that is less stressed when butchered has been proven to be better in taste. my value brand hot dogs probably came from tortured meat though but the chems cover it up pretty well.


I don't think they really separate meat from scared animals out from the meat of relaxed ones. Your value brand hot dogs are made from the amalgamated scraps of any carcass they could scrape some meat from. But yeah, fear changes the flavor of the meat.
 Problem: animals aren't stupid. I mean, they are, but they know the smell of death. They understand, on some level, what a trip to the slaughterhouse means, and their instincts are going to tell them to get the fark out of there. So how do you force a 1000lb animal that really, really doesn't want to die to go calmly to its death?
 
2013-03-18 04:23:03 AM  
you think that's bad?

you should see how people are treated in nursing homes and institutions

but we don't eat them. yet.
 
2013-03-18 04:26:34 AM  
Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy:  So how do you force a 1000lb animal that really, really doesn't want to die to go calmly to its death?

Make them work for the privilege of a shower?
 
2013-03-18 04:29:56 AM  

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: So how do you force a 1000lb animal that really, really doesn't want to die to go calmly to its death?


www.murdoconline.net
 
2013-03-18 04:36:46 AM  

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: Problem: animals aren't stupid. I mean, they are, but they know the smell of death. They understand, on some level, what a trip to the slaughterhouse means, and their instincts are going to tell them to get the fark out of there. So how do you force a 1000lb animal that really, really doesn't want to die to go calmly to its death?


They take comfort in the herd mentality, until the killing begins.

/cautionary tale for sheeple
 
2013-03-18 04:40:11 AM  

Bumblefark: Gawdzila: feckingmorons: Those who mistreat animals, even the animals we use as food are scumbags.

Yeah, this.
I don't have any moral issue with eating meat as I simply don't believe (no matter how much I love my pets) that animals are equivalent to persons, but I'm certainly not callous enough to think that they don't feel pain.  I don't want my meat tortured before I eat it, and anyone who would do such a thing must have a sense of empathy that is defective on an almost sociopathic level.  It is often mentioned (and it is true) that animal torture is a common behavior for young psycho/sociopaths.

It's also a common behavior for those who have a hand in bringing meat to market. Curiously enough, folks who raise/slaughter livestock for a living aren't so delicate in their sensibilities as the vast majority of people who benefit from their labors...

Sorry to say, your diet hinges on a whole lot of people you'd probably rather not associate with. By necessity...


Pretty much this.

My best friend grew up and worked on his family's dairy farm, and they certainly didn't mistreat their animals. They were valuable economic assets which provided a necessary commodity. But they weren't tucked into comfy beds in a cozy house every night, either. And they raised veal calves (since male calves are pretty useless on a dairy farm). The little guys got raised on 20' chains in little sheds till they were big enough to slaughter.

That said, nobody wants to hand slaughter animals over to people who want to torture them to death. But moving a large number of very unintelligent animals into what is essentially a mechanized assembly line, with attendant loud noises, bright lights, and unpleasant smells, is going to be incredibly stressful on the animals. They're not going to want to go. They'll have to be driven. You can't ask them nicely or wait till they go on their own. So they have to be poked, prodded, hit, and sometimes shocked. It's not a happy-making experience for either the animals or the people who have to do it. And animal slaughter laws require that certain cleanliness regulations be observed, which makes it even worse for everyone.

If that's too much for people to handle, then don't eat it. Or eat hand-raised and hand-slaughtered meat. But don't be too shocked by what goes on in an industrial slaughterhouse.
 
2013-03-18 04:40:44 AM  

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: So how do you force a 1000lb animal that really, really doesn't want to die to go calmly to its death?


I was watching a PBS show about small-time farmers a couple of months ago. One scene that stuck out is when the hippy-looking guy drove out to the cow pasture with a front-end loader on his tractor. At first I thought maybe one of the cows had died, until he grabbed his shotgun as he was getting off the tractor, and realized, not yet.

The screen went black and you only heard the gunshot, but afterwards, they showed an interview in which he discussed why he did that. The idea was that the cow would be in his normal environment, amongst the other cows he knew and was familiar with, and his death would be instantaneous and painless rather than a long, drawn out walk to a slaughterhouse, smelling blood and death and being uncomfortable and tense. He said that not only was it very humane, but the meat tasted better that way.
 
2013-03-18 04:41:50 AM  

doglover: Mid_mo_mad_man: The problem is the trespassing and lying to obtain the footage

No need to pass laws against trespass, as that's ALREADY illegal.

As for the lying, that should be illegal, too.

However I am against bans and for breaking unjust laws. If people feel strongly enough about these movies to keep making them, it's a freedom of speech thing. If they get caught breaking the law, prosecute 'em for trespass and possibly falsified documents, but don't pass a ban. That's a dick move.




How is sneaking onto private property and conning your way into places freedom of speech?
 
2013-03-18 04:43:15 AM  

ox45tallboy: Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: So how do you force a 1000lb animal that really, really doesn't want to die to go calmly to its death?

I was watching a PBS show about small-time farmers a couple of months ago. One scene that stuck out is when the hippy-looking guy drove out to the cow pasture with a front-end loader on his tractor. At first I thought maybe one of the cows had died, until he grabbed his shotgun as he was getting off the tractor, and realized, not yet.

The screen went black and you only heard the gunshot, but afterwards, they showed an interview in which he discussed why he did that. The idea was that the cow would be in his normal environment, amongst the other cows he knew and was familiar with, and his death would be instantaneous and painless rather than a long, drawn out walk to a slaughterhouse, smelling blood and death and being uncomfortable and tense. He said that not only was it very humane, but the meat tasted better that way.


God I hope he used a slug.
 
2013-03-18 04:44:51 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: How is sneaking onto private property and conning your way into places freedom of speech?


He should be tried by laws on the books, not laws written by industry for his benefit.
 
2013-03-18 04:46:32 AM  
I'm a member of PETA
People
Eating
Tasty
Animals

Mmmmmm.  Cheeseburgers!
 
2013-03-18 04:48:18 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: doglover: Mid_mo_mad_man: The problem is the trespassing and lying to obtain the footage

No need to pass laws against trespass, as that's ALREADY illegal.

As for the lying, that should be illegal, too.

However I am against bans and for breaking unjust laws. If people feel strongly enough about these movies to keep making them, it's a freedom of speech thing. If they get caught breaking the law, prosecute 'em for trespass and possibly falsified documents, but don't pass a ban. That's a dick move.

How is sneaking onto private property and conning your way into places freedom of speech?


I think what he's referring to is that people who do this sort of thing aren't disclosing the fact that they're also working on behalf of an animal rights group. They may be completely honest with their name and SSN and employment history, but they lie on the part of the application (if there is one) that asks if they are affiliated with any sort of tree-huggin' vegan hippies.

Personally, I don't think it's any of a prospective employer's business what my political affiliations are, as long as I am willing and able to do the job.

Do you think that political litmus tests for employment are acceptable?
 
2013-03-18 04:49:28 AM  
The ones complaining about slaughter houses are the same type who move to the country and complain about bad smells. My first job was on a 3,000 head hog farm. A retireee from St Louis moves a mile down from it. First thing he does is biatch about the odor
 
2013-03-18 04:50:37 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: How is sneaking onto private property and conning your way into places freedom of speech?


Uncovering dark conspiracies is pretty much the only reason you'd need to make a public announcement to your fellow countrymen and the burden of evidence is a minimal requirement.
 
2013-03-18 04:50:50 AM  
My GED in law tells me that neither laws against filming nor laws against lying on job applications will make it thru the courts even if they do get passed.
 
2013-03-18 04:51:20 AM  

Yogimus: God I hope he used a slug.


encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com

barfblog.com
 
2013-03-18 04:59:07 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: The problem is the trespassing and lying to obtain the footage


Lying is protected speech under certain circumstances.  The Stolen Valor Act was struck down by the SCOTUS.  Even Alito, ironically, lent credence to protection for this sort of lying in his dissent to the Stolen Valor decision:

"the right to free speech does not protect false factual statements that inflict real harm and serve no legitimate interest."

I would say that exposing animal abuse is a legitimate interest.  The doctrine of "clean hands" arguably precludes an animal abuser from claiming harm by the exposure of his crime.

It is instructive to review Food Lion v. Capital Cities/ABC Inc., a case in which investigative journalists obtained employment at Food Lion supermarkets and secretly videotaped unsafe food handling practices. Food Lion ultimately prevailed on claims of trespass and breach of duty-of-loyalty, but each journalist only had to pay $1 per offense.  Awards for fraud and unfair trade practices were voided.  Food Lion got zippo for damages to its reputation.
 
2013-03-18 05:02:44 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: The ones complaining about slaughter houses are the same type who


are better people than you.
 
2013-03-18 05:04:54 AM  

Frederick: are better people than you.


Tell me how to love a cow into a burger and I will listen.
 
2013-03-18 05:05:13 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: doglover: Mid_mo_mad_man: The problem is the trespassing and lying to obtain the footage

No need to pass laws against trespass, as that's ALREADY illegal.

As for the lying, that should be illegal, too.

However I am against bans and for breaking unjust laws. If people feel strongly enough about these movies to keep making them, it's a freedom of speech thing. If they get caught breaking the law, prosecute 'em for trespass and possibly falsified documents, but don't pass a ban. That's a dick move.

How is sneaking onto private property and conning your way into places freedom of speech?


It isn't, but the act of trespassing and the photography are two different subjects (pdf). See also,  College of Charleston Foundation v. Ham.
 
2013-03-18 05:06:30 AM  
What I saw in the graphic calf slaughter video were men who suffered psychological damage while preserving our way of life... just like soldiers do.
 
2013-03-18 05:09:58 AM  

Yogimus: Frederick: are better people than you.

Tell me how to love a cow into a burger and I will listen.


Strawman.

There is a difference between slaughter and abuse.  Do you disagree?
 
2013-03-18 05:13:16 AM  
Yeah!

Cuz sociopaths need jobs too!
 
2013-03-18 05:21:57 AM  
I love crap like this.  The PETA argument crops up all the time from Veggies and Vegans.  The FDA regulates meat product, and conducts inspections of farms, especially when there are complaints.  If unsanitary conditions, abuse, or anything of the sort are found the farm is often fined and temporarily shut down until regulations are met, and the farm is "back up to code".  Lost revenue, etc etc.  People see shiat like this on the internet and think that this is how ALL farms operate.  Then they scream and cry foul and demand action (and the loudest are often the ones who already abstain from meat).  Problem is, this isn't how all farms operate.  This is representative of a tiny tiny minority of farms.  The FDA inspection process is slow, and typically governmental.  So rights advocates get wind of the complaints, and breach the farm somehow to document what has ALREADY been documented.  They just get in before the FDA and make a bigger, louder, more widely disseminated fuss.  I grew up in farm country, I spent time working on farms (dairy, meat, grain, horse boarding, etc) and they all treated their animals with respect.  Slaughter is a messy business.  Animals don't want to be slaughtered.  As a farmer, farm hand or butcher you do everything you can to keep the (dis)assembly line moving.  Sometimes it's ugly because the animals freak out. And when one freaks out, they all freak out.  And still, most farms manage this the best they can without breaking every FDA code because they want that stamp of approval on their meat so they can sell it.

The best slaughter guy is the mobile butcher.  He shows up with a big 18-wheeler, the inside is all stainless and clean.  He hands you a menu, you check off what you want, in goes your pig, out comes butchered and neatly wrapped deliciousness.  This doesn't really work on a large scale though.

Anyway, if you think farms are dens of animal abuse and filth, drive out to the country, find a hog farm or a dairy or whatever, and drive down the driveway and ring the bell of the home.  Ask whoever answers if you can volunteer some time to "see how a farm works".  Mention you live in the city, and want a taste of "country life".  These things will humor the farmer, and he will laugh at your cosmopolitan, sissy ways and give you a laundry list of chores to be done that day more difficult than what you typically accomplish in a month.  You will also get a first hand account of how difficult animal management can be, and how well these people treat the animals in their care.
 
2013-03-18 05:28:40 AM  

WhiskeyBoy: and give you a laundry list of chores to be done that day more difficult than what you typically accomplish in a month. You will also get a first hand account of how difficult animal management can be, and how well these people treat the animals in their care.


My sister and her husband ran a hog operation for several years. I had nightmares after I watched her castrating piglets.
 
2013-03-18 05:31:03 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: Mid_mo_mad_man: The problem is the trespassing and lying to obtain the footage

Lying is protected speech under certain circumstances.  The Stolen Valor Act was struck down by the SCOTUS.  Even Alito, ironically, lent credence to protection for this sort of lying in his dissent to the Stolen Valor decision:

"the right to free speech does not protect false factual statements that inflict real harm and serve no legitimate interest."

I would say that exposing animal abuse is a legitimate interest.  The doctrine of "clean hands" arguably precludes an animal abuser from claiming harm by the exposure of his crime.

It is instructive to review Food Lion v. Capital Cities/ABC Inc., a case in which investigative journalists obtained employment at Food Lion supermarkets and secretly videotaped unsafe food handling practices. Food Lion ultimately prevailed on claims of trespass and breach of duty-of-loyalty, but each journalist only had to pay $1 per offense.  Awards for fraud and unfair trade practices were voided.  Food Lion got zippo for damages to its reputation.




The Stolen Valor Act ruling does not protect lying for economic gain. One could say that with cherry picking footage they are lying to get more political donations. As for Food Lion they were commiting illegal acts. If the slaughter houses are not commiting illegal acts then your citation is invalid.

/ I'm not a lawyer but I play one on Fark
// Grew up on a farm raising most of the meat we consumed
/// Even named steers that we were planing to eat.
 
2013-03-18 05:33:12 AM  

WhiskeyBoy: I love crap like this.  The PETA argument crops up all the time from Veggies and Vegans.  The FDA regulates meat product, and conducts inspections of farms, especially when there are complaints.


There is a difference between nurturing animals for months or years and then slaughtering them, and spending 40 hours a week for months or years doing nothing but slaughter.  The latter takes a greater toll on a person's humanity, I think.  One is more likely to find abuse at slaughterhouses than on farms.
 
2013-03-18 05:36:51 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: The Stolen Valor Act ruling does not protect lying for economic gain


So as long as the person doing the filming accepts no pay from the activists, then it's okay?
 
2013-03-18 05:38:01 AM  
Some people here seem to be having trouble separating the issues of abuse & cruelty with eating meat.

WhiskeyBoy: You will also get a first hand account of how difficult animal management can be, and how well these people treat the animals in their care.


I think most people agree with what you said.  But it doesnt mean cruelty and abuse dont exist or shouldnt be exposed.  Exposure is the subject of the proposed bill.
 
2013-03-18 05:42:17 AM  

WhiskeyBoy: Anyway, if you think farms are dens of animal abuse and filth, drive out to the country, find a hog farm or a dairy or whatever, and drive down the driveway and ring the bell of the home. Ask whoever answers if you can volunteer some time to "see how a farm works". Mention you live in the city, and want a taste of "country life". These things will humor the farmer, and he will laugh at your cosmopolitan, sissy ways and give you a laundry list of chores to be done that day more difficult than what you typically accomplish in a month. You will also get a first hand account of how difficult animal management can be, and how well these people treat the animals in their care.


Sounds like you've been to some farms too.  Having been to many during my childhood and even more while installing equipment, let me assure you that there are farmers at all ends of pretty much all spectrums.  One of the filthiest places I know is a hog farm where the crap level in the pens will go right up your shins.  Could he clean it?  Yes.  Would most farmers clean it?  Yes.  Did he clean it?  No.  Generally speaking, you get into problems when farmers are just a little bit lazy which is funny because most of us are easily in that group.
 
2013-03-18 05:47:22 AM  

Gyrfalcon: If that's too much for people to handle, then don't eat it. Or eat hand-raised and hand-slaughtered meat. But don't be too shocked by what goes on in an industrial slaughterhouse.


Fair enough--so you'd be okay with filming what takes place, right? To keep people informed of all their choices and consequences?
 
2013-03-18 05:49:30 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: The Stolen Valor Act ruling does not protect lying for economic gain. One could say that with cherry picking footage they are lying to get more political donations. As for Food Lion they were commiting illegal acts. If the slaughter houses are not commiting illegal acts then your citation is invalid.


Without reading the final decision, I don't know if Food Club's culpability mattered or not to the court. It seems the investigators could not determine whether Food Lion committed crimes before they committed crimes.  ABC certainly did lie for financial gain (audience/advertising), and yet it was not punished for airing the story.

The bills under consideration would ban infiltration and recording even for Alito's "legitimate" purposes; if you go a step too far for him, you are in deep yogurt!
 
2013-03-18 05:51:21 AM  

Frederick: Some people here seem to be having trouble separating the issues of abuse & cruelty with eating meat.

WhiskeyBoy: You will also get a first hand account of how difficult animal management can be, and how well these people treat the animals in their care.

I think most people agree with what you said.  But it doesnt mean cruelty and abuse dont exist or shouldnt be exposed.  Exposure is the subject of the proposed bill.


Agreed.  But this thread quickly devolved in to something more.  I just wanted to get my $0.02 in.  The problem is most of these farms getting this widespread attention already have complaints on the books, and that's how these "undercover operatives" know where to go.  Still, maybe it prevents abuse at other farms, maybe not.  I doubt it does.  And as a consumer, you either risk it and eat meat, or abstain entirely.  Making a law that says you can't film the abuse though is just plain stupid.
 
2013-03-18 05:53:39 AM  

ox45tallboy: Mid_mo_mad_man: The Stolen Valor Act ruling does not protect lying for economic gain

So as long as the person doing the filming accepts no pay from the activists, then it's okay?


He seems to be addressing "cherry picking footage," which takes place far from the scene of any crime contemplated by these bills.  Editing is not even addressed in the bills.  Lying to gain access to the facilities and making unauthorized recordings are all the bills are about.
 
2013-03-18 05:55:36 AM  

WhiskeyBoy: Agreed. But this thread quickly devolved in to something more.


It did.  I had a hand in that and will dial it back.  The emotional aspect of the thread reminds me of the anti-vax threads.
 
2013-03-18 05:58:49 AM  

WhiskeyBoy: Frederick: Some people here seem to be having trouble separating the issues of abuse & cruelty with eating meat.

WhiskeyBoy: You will also get a first hand account of how difficult animal management can be, and how well these people treat the animals in their care.

I think most people agree with what you said.  But it doesnt mean cruelty and abuse dont exist or shouldnt be exposed.  Exposure is the subject of the proposed bill.

Agreed.  But this thread quickly devolved in to something more.  I just wanted to get my $0.02 in.  The problem is most of these farms getting this widespread attention already have complaints on the books, and that's how these "undercover operatives" know where to go.  Still, maybe it prevents abuse at other farms, maybe not.  I doubt it does.  And as a consumer, you either risk it and eat meat, or abstain entirely.  Making a law that says you can't film the abuse though is just plain stupid.


I don't see any problem with pressuring the government to address complaints faster.  I don't see any problem with going fishing where fish have reportedly been sighted.
 
2013-03-18 06:00:03 AM  

Frederick: Strawman.


I wonder if you know how to use that word.
 
2013-03-18 06:00:09 AM  

Frederick: WhiskeyBoy: Agreed. But this thread quickly devolved in to something more.

It did.  I had a hand in that and will dial it back.  The emotional aspect of the thread reminds me of the anti-vax threads.


When the word "sociopath" crops up, we're in rape-thread territory.
 
2013-03-18 06:03:12 AM  

Yogimus: Frederick: Strawman.

I wonder if you know how to use that word.


I thought I used it correctly.
Why didnt you respond to this:  There is a difference between slaughter and abuse.  Do you disagree?
 
2013-03-18 06:14:27 AM  
I thought everyone knew terrified meat is the most tender.
 
2013-03-18 06:15:27 AM  

Frederick: Some people here seem to be having trouble separating the issues of abuse & cruelty with eating meat.

WhiskeyBoy: You will also get a first hand account of how difficult animal management can be, and how well these people treat the animals in their care.

I think most people agree with what you said.  But it doesnt mean cruelty and abuse dont exist or shouldnt be exposed.  Exposure is the subject of the proposed bill.




One of the problems with "abuse" is that the bleeding harts wouldn't be able to tell between it and what it isn't. Banding cavles f and burning horns off them would seem cruel if you didn't know it's for thier own good. Same with tail docking and snout ringing on pigs. All look cruel but are common things.
 
2013-03-18 06:18:09 AM  

Frederick: Yogimus: Frederick: Strawman.

I wonder if you know how to use that word.

I thought I used it correctly.
Why didnt you respond to this:  There is a difference between slaughter and abuse.  Do you disagree?


Of course sir, but you are changing the parameters of your original argument. As if to imply my position to be one that I do not profess. Almost as if one were to build a man from straw, so he could strike it down easily.

/I believe the difference between slaughter and abuse is the "joy" derived by the perpetrator from the act
 
2013-03-18 06:21:26 AM  
Mid_mo_mad_man:
One of the problems with "abuse" is that the bleeding harts wouldn't be able to tell between it and what it isn't. Banding cavles f and burning horns off them would seem cruel if you didn't know it's for thier own good. Same with tail docking and snout ringing on pigs. All look cruel but are common things.

From the article it doesn't seem like they had much of a problem in finding it.
This isn't a Facebook poll or something, it's the law.
 
2013-03-18 06:27:02 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: 7KQ201_McKittrick: Video or it didn't happen

Here  y'go.  Graphic.


I'm a voracious omnivore and I think I'll have a salad for lunch today...
 
2013-03-18 06:28:34 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: One of the problems with "abuse" is that the bleeding harts wouldn't be able to tell between it and what it isn't. Banding cavles f and burning horns off them would seem cruel if you didn't know it's for thier own good. Same with tail docking and snout ringing on pigs. All look cruel but are common things.


You got that right.  I'm an Iowa boy.  I spent some time on farms.  Frankly I havent the stomach for it.  I once saw a farmer pick a squealing piglet up by the foot and I about cried.  BUT, I also learned to trust farmers know what they're doing and to not question them.

I dont think farms or farmers are the problem.  Slaughter houses/Packing plants....thats a different story.

Yogimus: I believe the difference between slaughter and abuse is the "joy" derived by the perpetrator from the act


Thats an interesting take; I'll give that some thought.
 
2013-03-18 06:37:56 AM  
We have to protect our job creators subby.
 
2013-03-18 06:51:26 AM  

WhiskeyBoy: I love crap like

blah blah blah blah blah etc."

Yeah. You're right - abusers are a small minority, and not representative. That's why it stinks that these creeps are trying to make laws that will make it harder to expose them.
 
2013-03-18 06:59:56 AM  

GAT_00: And the California bill is GOP introduced


which means it will never even make to to the floor. which is good. even if passed- jerry will veto it.
 
2013-03-18 07:03:54 AM  
Just a reminder about America's food industry.
According to Center for Disease Control estimates, 48 million Americans get sick, 128,000 are hospitalized, and 3,000 die from foodborne illnesses every year. In comparison, the entire European Union had roughly 45,000 illnesses and 32 deaths from contaminated food in 2008. That means foodborne illness strikes 15 percent of Americans each year, but only .00009 percent of Europeans.
 
2013-03-18 07:06:35 AM  

jso2897: WhiskeyBoy: I love crap like blah blah blah blah blah etc."

Yeah. You're right - abusers are a small minority, and not representative. That's why it stinks that these creeps are trying to make laws that will make it harder to expose them.




The problem with the undercover cameramen is lack of context. What appears like abuse to a guy in a Portland coffee house may be how it's suppose to be. I've butchered hogs, cattle, goats, chickens etc. Some of it looks cruel if you are clueless to it. Slaughtering livestock is not nice and tidy, nor can it be made that way
 
2013-03-18 07:11:51 AM  

generallyso: Just a reminder about America's food industry.
According to Center for Disease Control estimates, 48 million Americans get sick, 128,000 are hospitalized, and 3,000 die from foodborne illnesses every year. In comparison, the entire European Union had roughly 45,000 illnesses and 32 deaths from contaminated food in 2008. That means foodborne illness strikes 15 percent of Americans each year, but only .00009 percent of Europeans.


Ok now go do your math for illness per pound of meat consumed, and please make sure you properly separate meat and vegetable/food illnesses for both of your samples..  No, I will not do the work for you.
 
2013-03-18 07:22:13 AM  

whither_apophis: If only cows had guns...

/bad cow pun


how is this funny

the cows are the innocent ones that want to die
the humans are the evil turds with gun fighting fetishes
 
2013-03-18 07:24:15 AM  
Can we grow meat with no brains or pain receptors yet? Come on, science!

I've hunted my own food. I'm okay with killing something else so that I can eat things that are part of the natural diet of humans. But it'd be nice if poor little critters didn't have to suffer so much, just because they make a tasty burger.

I saw a movie a while back with Claire Danes in it. She played some autistic girl who came up with all sorts of ways to make the slaughtering process work better and be less cruel at the same time. I wonder how much success the chick she was portraying had in getting that stuff implemented.

/Could probably wikipedia it
//Won't
 
2013-03-18 07:34:32 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Bumblefark: Gawdzila: feckingmorons: Those who mistreat animals, even the animals we use as food are scumbags.

Yeah, this.
I don't have any moral issue with eating meat as I simply don't believe (no matter how much I love my pets) that animals are equivalent to persons, but I'm certainly not callous enough to think that they don't feel pain.  I don't want my meat tortured before I eat it, and anyone who would do such a thing must have a sense of empathy that is defective on an almost sociopathic level.  It is often mentioned (and it is true) that animal torture is a common behavior for young psycho/sociopaths.

It's also a common behavior for those who have a hand in bringing meat to market. Curiously enough, folks who raise/slaughter livestock for a living aren't so delicate in their sensibilities as the vast majority of people who benefit from their labors...

Sorry to say, your diet hinges on a whole lot of people you'd probably rather not associate with. By necessity...

Pretty much this.

My best friend grew up and worked on his family's dairy farm, and they certainly didn't mistreat their animals. They were valuable economic assets which provided a necessary commodity. But they weren't tucked into comfy beds in a cozy house every night, either. And they raised veal calves (since male calves are pretty useless on a dairy farm). The little guys got raised on 20' chains in little sheds till they were big enough to slaughter.

That said, nobody wants to hand slaughter animals over to people who want to torture them to death. But moving a large number of very unintelligent animals into what is essentially a mechanized assembly line, with attendant loud noises, bright lights, and unpleasant smells, is going to be incredibly stressful on the animals. They're not going to want to go. They'll have to be driven. You can't ask them nicely or wait till they go on their own. So they have to be poked, prodded, hit, and sometimes shocked. It's not a happy-making experience ...


Unfortunately, its hard to tell a 'reluctant' animal from a sick one.

Given diseases such as 'Mad Cow' this is also a serious public health issue.
 
2013-03-18 07:34:33 AM  

Eddie Ate Dynamite: Can we grow meat with no brains or pain receptors yet? Come on, science!

I've hunted my own food. I'm okay with killing something else so that I can eat things that are part of the natural diet of humans. But it'd be nice if poor little critters didn't have to suffer so much, just because they make a tasty burger.

I saw a movie a while back with Claire Danes in it. She played some autistic girl who came up with all sorts of ways to make the slaughtering process work better and be less cruel at the same time. I wonder how much success the chick she was portraying had in getting that stuff implemented.

/Could probably wikipedia it
//Won't


THEY DONT farkING SUFFER
BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE HATRED AND OTHER HUMAN EMOTIONS

seriously.  have you EVER TRIED SUFFERING without FEELING HATE
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE because the suffering just disappears as soon as you stop hating
 
2013-03-18 07:35:41 AM  

Jon iz teh kewl: seriously. have you EVER TRIED SUFFERING without FEELING HATE
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE because the suffering just disappears as soon as you stop hating


You sound jesusy.
 
2013-03-18 07:39:49 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: jso2897: WhiskeyBoy: I love crap like blah blah blah blah blah etc."

Yeah. You're right - abusers are a small minority, and not representative. That's why it stinks that these creeps are trying to make laws that will make it harder to expose them.

The problem with the undercover cameramen is lack of context. What appears like abuse to a guy in a Portland coffee house may be how it's suppose to be. I've butchered hogs, cattle, goats, chickens etc. Some of it looks cruel if you are clueless to it. Slaughtering livestock is not nice and tidy, nor can it be made that way


Probably true, and a reasonable argument of defense - but not an argument for making these laws. If what you do is defensible, why would you want people to be banned by law from recording it?
People in business NEVER want to be inconvenienced, or publicly embarrassed. I don't blame them - neither do I. But in the grown-up world of big boys and girls, we don't get that luxury.
Or I don't, anyway - why should they?
We need to abandon this weird social conviction that business and money are sacred and sacrosanct - it's extremely unwholesome for our entire society.
 
2013-03-18 08:06:16 AM  

jso2897: Mid_mo_mad_man: jso2897: WhiskeyBoy: I love crap like blah blah blah blah blah etc."

Yeah. You're right - abusers are a small minority, and not representative. That's why it stinks that these creeps are trying to make laws that will make it harder to expose them.

The problem with the undercover cameramen is lack of context. What appears like abuse to a guy in a Portland coffee house may be how it's suppose to be. I've butchered hogs, cattle, goats, chickens etc. Some of it looks cruel if you are clueless to it. Slaughtering livestock is not nice and tidy, nor can it be made that way

Probably true, and a reasonable argument of defense - but not an argument for making these laws. If what you do is defensible, why would you want people to be banned by law from recording it?
People in business NEVER want to be inconvenienced, or publicly embarrassed. I don't blame them - neither do I. But in the grown-up world of big boys and girls, we don't get that luxury.
Or I don't, anyway - why should they?
We need to abandon this weird social conviction that business and money are sacred and sacrosanct - it's extremely unwholesome for our entire society.


 
/p>
Are you allowed to walk into any other place of business and just start taping events? I think not. A private company should be able to bar access to its activities. The packing industry has been harassed for a long time. Maybe they need help keeping trouble at bay
 
2013-03-18 08:09:15 AM  
Allow me to be the first to say...so farking what? They're food.
 
2013-03-18 08:13:50 AM  

GAT_00: Hmm, possibly Republican government, but banning the filming of cops has been across the board.  Let's just take a look...

5 of 6 GOP, and of course we're doing it.  And the California bill is GOP introduced.  Can't get in the way of profits now can we Republicans?  Must pray to the all mighty dollar.  I wonder which odious piece of shiat introduced our version of it.  Oh ALEC, I should have known.


Republicans take your money to protect their business, democrats take your money to protect their unions.

But the republicans are so much worse because I'm I liberal!
 
2013-03-18 08:19:02 AM  

Jon iz teh kewl: Eddie Ate Dynamite: Can we grow meat with no brains or pain receptors yet? Come on, science!

I've hunted my own food. I'm okay with killing something else so that I can eat things that are part of the natural diet of humans. But it'd be nice if poor little critters didn't have to suffer so much, just because they make a tasty burger.

I saw a movie a while back with Claire Danes in it. She played some autistic girl who came up with all sorts of ways to make the slaughtering process work better and be less cruel at the same time. I wonder how much success the chick she was portraying had in getting that stuff implemented.

/Could probably wikipedia it
//Won't

THEY DONT farkING SUFFER
BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE HATRED AND OTHER HUMAN EMOTIONS

seriously.  have you EVER TRIED SUFFERING without FEELING HATE
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE because the suffering just disappears as soon as you stop hating


What? I'm really not sure how to take this post. This simply can't be how you think. Nobody's that retarded and still able to use a computer. So it has to be something else. Are you attempting to make some underlying point about my post by going way over the top with the derp? Or...I don't know. It's a mystery. Maybe that's the point, some sort of meta troll?
 
2013-03-18 08:19:23 AM  
A great American writer once wrote: "civilization begins the day the walls go up at the slaughterhouse". No pictures is just a virtual wall so I'm ok with this.
 
2013-03-18 08:24:00 AM  

Frederick: Something, something, Upton Sinclair something Corporatocracy.


SWEET JESUS; I'm not alone.

 

Mid_mo_mad_man: jso2897: Mid_mo_mad_man: jso2897: WhiskeyBoy: I love crap like blah blah blah blah blah etc."
Yeah. You're right - abusers are a small minority, and not representative. That's why it stinks that these creeps are trying to make laws that will make it harder to expose them.

The problem with the undercover cameramen is lack of context. What appears like abuse to a guy in a Portland coffee house may be how it's suppose to be. I've butchered hogs, cattle, goats, chickens etc. Some of it looks cruel if you are clueless to it. Slaughtering livestock is not nice and tidy, nor can it be made that way

Probably true, and a reasonable argument of defense - but not an argument for making these laws. If what you do is defensible, why would you want people to be banned by law from recording it?
People in business NEVER want to be inconvenienced, or publicly embarrassed. I don't blame them - neither do I. But in the grown-up world of big boys and girls, we don't get that luxury.
Or I don't, anyway - why should they?
We need to abandon this weird social conviction that business and money are sacred and sacrosanct - it's extremely unwholesome for our entire society.
/p>
Are you allowed to walk into any other place of business and just start taping events? I think not. A private company should be able to bar access to its activities. The packing industry has been harassed for a long time. Maybe they need help keeping trouble at bay


That's not funny.  The packing industry makes politicians look like Nancy Drew.
You need to get out more and stop eating Pink Slime for christ sake
 
2013-03-18 08:33:16 AM  

Jon iz teh kewl: whither_apophis: If only cows had guns...

/bad cow pun

how is this funny

the cows are the innocent ones that want to die
the humans are the evil turds with gun fighting fetishes


Not sure if serious, though if you are you might want to see this humorous animation.
 
2013-03-18 08:35:38 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Mid_mo_mad_man: doglover: Mid_mo_mad_man: I'm ok with the banning of filming at slaughter houses. The business of butchering animals is never going to be pleasant.

Doesn't mean they should ban cameras.

The truth is life is vicious and bloody. People should know.

People should also know when is appropriate to show such videos and when is not.

You'll never legislate morality.

The problem is the trespassing and lying to obtain the footage

As we all know, people will always do the same thing when they know a camera is taking their picture as when they believe there are none...

/you can't possibly be this dumb and survived past puberty.




Have you read any of my posts? The big problem is most people (you included) wouldn't know what's cruelty is? There are many farming and butchering activities that seem cruel if you dont know whats going on. All footage is useless out of context
 
2013-03-18 08:37:55 AM  
On one hand, "abuse" in almost any form is bad, no reason to prolong something painful to any living thing except rapists, etc.

But on the other hand, I love a good steak, and would go club a cow if i knew for a fact it had the most tender prime rib cut just waiting to be carved out. My wife and I saw fast food nation, for some reason we thought it was a comedy? but i left wanting a burger or a steak and better jobs for people. I dont know what that says about me.
 
2013-03-18 08:38:51 AM  

Marcintosh: Frederick: Something, something, Upton Sinclair something Corporatocracy.

SWEET JESUS; I'm not alone.

 Mid_mo_mad_man: jso2897: Mid_mo_mad_man: jso2897: WhiskeyBoy: I love crap like blah blah blah blah blah etc."
Yeah. You're right - abusers are a small minority, and not representative. That's why it stinks that these creeps are trying to make laws that will make it harder to expose them.

The problem with the undercover cameramen is lack of context. What appears like abuse to a guy in a Portland coffee house may be how it's suppose to be. I've butchered hogs, cattle, goats, chickens etc. Some of it looks cruel if you are clueless to it. Slaughtering livestock is not nice and tidy, nor can it be made that way

Probably true, and a reasonable argument of defense - but not an argument for making these laws. If what you do is defensible, why would you want people to be banned by law from recording it?
People in business NEVER want to be inconvenienced, or publicly embarrassed. I don't blame them - neither do I. But in the grown-up world of big boys and girls, we don't get that luxury.
Or I don't, anyway - why should they?
We need to abandon this weird social conviction that business and money are sacred and sacrosanct - it's extremely unwholesome for our entire society.
/p>
Are you allowed to walk into any other place of business and just start taping events? I think not. A private company should be able to bar access to its activities. The packing industry has been harassed for a long time. Maybe they need help keeping trouble at bay

That's not funny.  The packing industry makes politicians look like Nancy Drew.
You need to get out more and stop eating Pink Slime for christ sake




I've lived my whole life in the agriculture industry tyvm. I've forgetten more about life then you know.
 
2013-03-18 08:45:46 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Mid_mo_mad_man: HindiDiscoMonster: Mid_mo_mad_man: doglover: Mid_mo_mad_man: I'm ok with the banning of filming at slaughter houses. The business of butchering animals is never going to be pleasant.

Doesn't mean they should ban cameras.

The truth is life is vicious and bloody. People should know.

People should also know when is appropriate to show such videos and when is not.

You'll never legislate morality.

The problem is the trespassing and lying to obtain the footage

As we all know, people will always do the same thing when they know a camera is taking their picture as when they believe there are none...

/you can't possibly be this dumb and survived past puberty.

Have you read any of my posts? The big problem is most people (you included) wouldn't know what's cruelty is? There are many farming and butchering activities that seem cruel if you dont know whats going on. All footage is useless out of context

I think skinning an animal while still alive is a good litmus test of torture.


Alive or nervous reactions causing twitching? Big differance
 
2013-03-18 08:50:06 AM  

Bravo Two: Allow me to be the first to say...so farking what? They're food.


Right?  What's the humane way to cut off a cow's head?  Guillotine?
 
2013-03-18 08:51:53 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Mid_mo_mad_man: HindiDiscoMonster: Mid_mo_mad_man: doglover: Mid_mo_mad_man: I'm ok with the banning of filming at slaughter houses. The business of butchering animals is never going to be pleasant.

Doesn't mean they should ban cameras.

The truth is life is vicious and bloody. People should know.

People should also know when is appropriate to show such videos and when is not.

You'll never legislate morality.

The problem is the trespassing and lying to obtain the footage

As we all know, people will always do the same thing when they know a camera is taking their picture as when they believe there are none...

/you can't possibly be this dumb and survived past puberty.

Have you read any of my posts? The big problem is most people (you included) wouldn't know what's cruelty is? There are many farming and butchering activities that seem cruel if you dont know whats going on. All footage is useless out of context

I think skinning an animal while still alive is a good litmus test of torture.


Intent is important.  Were they skinned alive because the person got some perverse pleasure out of it. Or were they skinned alive because that's the cheapest/best way to process the animal?
 
2013-03-18 08:52:37 AM  

Molavian: Bravo Two: Allow me to be the first to say...so farking what? They're food.

Right?  What's the humane way to cut off a cow's head?  Guillotine?


well, theoretically, hiring a bunch of ninjas to come in the night to destroy their brain and kill them instantly without noise or awareness would be more humane. But then we'd have to hire a bunch of Pirates, to keep the load balanced.
 
2013-03-18 08:55:12 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Mid_mo_mad_man: HindiDiscoMonster: Mid_mo_mad_man: HindiDiscoMonster: Mid_mo_mad_man: doglover: Mid_mo_mad_man: I'm ok with the banning of filming at slaughter houses. The business of butchering animals is never going to be pleasant.

Doesn't mean they should ban cameras.

The truth is life is vicious and bloody. People should know.

People should also know when is appropriate to show such videos and when is not.

You'll never legislate morality.

The problem is the trespassing and lying to obtain the footage

As we all know, people will always do the same thing when they know a camera is taking their picture as when they believe there are none...

/you can't possibly be this dumb and survived past puberty.

Have you read any of my posts? The big problem is most people (you included) wouldn't know what's cruelty is? There are many farming and butchering activities that seem cruel if you dont know whats going on. All footage is useless out of context

I think skinning an animal while still alive is a good litmus test of torture.

Alive or nervous reactions causing twitching? Big differance

what did i say?




I'm asking do you know the difference? I'm doubting you do. What may look alive isnt always so.
 
2013-03-18 08:58:52 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: Alive or nervous reactions causing twitching? Big differance


www.fatwallet.com
 
2013-03-18 09:07:41 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: fozziewazzi: HindiDiscoMonster: Mid_mo_mad_man: HindiDiscoMonster: Mid_mo_mad_man: doglover: Mid_mo_mad_man: I'm ok with the banning of filming at slaughter houses. The business of butchering animals is never going to be pleasant.

Doesn't mean they should ban cameras.

The truth is life is vicious and bloody. People should know.

People should also know when is appropriate to show such videos and when is not.

You'll never legislate morality.

The problem is the trespassing and lying to obtain the footage

As we all know, people will always do the same thing when they know a camera is taking their picture as when they believe there are none...

/you can't possibly be this dumb and survived past puberty.

Have you read any of my posts? The big problem is most people (you included) wouldn't know what's cruelty is? There are many farming and butchering activities that seem cruel if you dont know whats going on. All footage is useless out of context

I think skinning an animal while still alive is a good litmus test of torture.

Intent is important.  Were they skinned alive because the person got some perverse pleasure out of it. Or were they skinned alive because that's the cheapest/best way to process the animal?

let's think about that for a moment:

dead - no squirming, easy to handle
alive - squirming squealing, hard to handle

which might be easier, cheaper, more efficient.... hmmmm this one is a hard one.


I'd like to think of it this way, what is more likely - a) the owner of a meat processing plant is having his workers skin animals alive because that's the easiest, quickest, cheapest way to do it, b) the owner is clueless on how to run an efficient meat processing business or c) he's some sick pervo and enjoys seeing meat processed this way despite the increased costs.
 
2013-03-18 09:17:05 AM  

alienated: GAT_00: And the California bill is GOP introduced

which means it will never even make to to the floor. which is good. even if passed- jerry will veto it.


community.secondlife.com

The GOP in this state couldn't get a resolution wishing the President happy birthday out of committee, much less something as asinine as this. Patterson is just trolling the Assembly...and proving how far out of touch even our Republicans are. Although to be fair to them, I imagine more than one GOP'er in the Assembly is doing a double-facepalm over this.
 
2013-03-18 09:18:47 AM  
D. Whatever, fire up the grill!
 
2013-03-18 09:25:09 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: fozziewazzi: Intent is important. Were they skinned alive because the person got some perverse pleasure out of it. Or were they skinned alive because that's the cheapest/best way to process the animal?

let's think about that for a moment:

dead - no squirming, easy to handle
alive - squirming squealing, hard to handle

which might be easier, cheaper, more efficient.... hmmmm this one is a hard one.

I'd like to think of it this way, what is more likely - a) the owner of a meat processing plant is having his workers skin animals alive because that's the easiest, quickest, cheapest way to do it, b) the owner is clueless on how to run an efficient meat processing business or c) he's some sick pervo and enjoys seeing meat processed this way despite the increased costs.


The answer is always C, but I had the lasagna.
I hate to break this to you, but people in power are attracted to that power and are petty and corrupt (or a perv as you put it). The type of personality that is attracted to that type of business in preference of other viable options are generally people you do not want to know unless you are one of them. These types of people* generally lack social skills, are either VERY quiet or rowdy as hell outside the office, and have little or no empathy for other people. They also generally have no empathy whatsoever for any animals. They view animals as nothing more than poop factories or walking pieces of meat with no consideration at all for the pain they inflict. They will generally use the excuse of "I didn't think it could feel pain" when confronted, despite the fact they know full well that the animal was in excruciating pain from the torture they inflicted (which is the main reason they like doing what they do, but will never admit that).

/yes I have known people like this - they DO exist
//if they weren't slaughtering animals, it would be people

*people is loosely used in this context.




Have you ever been outside the city in your life? Most farmers/ranchers/butchers are the nicest people you will meet. Your profile claims your from India. So you right to judge people is void.
 
2013-03-18 09:30:32 AM  

Green Scorpio: I'm a voracious omnivore and I think I'll have a salad for lunch today...


Since I live in California where mistreating animals is seriously against the law, and whistle-blowers are protected, I think I'll have a grilled chicken breast with alfredo sauce for lunch (leftovers from last night).
 
2013-03-18 09:37:37 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: jso2897: Mid_mo_mad_man: jso2897: WhiskeyBoy: I love crap like blah blah blah blah blah etc."

Yeah. You're right - abusers are a small minority, and not representative. That's why it stinks that these creeps are trying to make laws that will make it harder to expose them.

The problem with the undercover cameramen is lack of context. What appears like abuse to a guy in a Portland coffee house may be how it's suppose to be. I've butchered hogs, cattle, goats, chickens etc. Some of it looks cruel if you are clueless to it. Slaughtering livestock is not nice and tidy, nor can it be made that way

Probably true, and a reasonable argument of defense - but not an argument for making these laws. If what you do is defensible, why would you want people to be banned by law from recording it?
People in business NEVER want to be inconvenienced, or publicly embarrassed. I don't blame them - neither do I. But in the grown-up world of big boys and girls, we don't get that luxury.
Or I don't, anyway - why should they?
We need to abandon this weird social conviction that business and money are sacred and sacrosanct - it's extremely unwholesome for our entire society.

 
/p>
Are you allowed to walk into any other place of business and just start taping events? I think not. A private company should be able to bar access to its activities. The packing industry has been harassed for a long time. Maybe they need help keeping trouble at bay


You may not be allowed to do it - and nobody is talking about forcing them to "allow" it. They are asking for the power to have the act criminally prosecuted.
If there were already laws on the books that specified that for business in general, they would not be asking to have these laws made - they are asking for special protection for their industry by creating a new category of criminal law.
 
2013-03-18 09:47:19 AM  
Then it's settled: In N' Out Burger for lunch.
 
2013-03-18 10:00:04 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Mid_mo_mad_man: HindiDiscoMonster: fozziewazzi: Intent is important. Were they skinned alive because the person got some perverse pleasure out of it. Or were they skinned alive because that's the cheapest/best way to process the animal?

let's think about that for a moment:

dead - no squirming, easy to handle
alive - squirming squealing, hard to handle

which might be easier, cheaper, more efficient.... hmmmm this one is a hard one.

I'd like to think of it this way, what is more likely - a) the owner of a meat processing plant is having his workers skin animals alive because that's the easiest, quickest, cheapest way to do it, b) the owner is clueless on how to run an efficient meat processing business or c) he's some sick pervo and enjoys seeing meat processed this way despite the increased costs.


The answer is always C, but I had the lasagna.
I hate to break this to you, but people in power are attracted to that power and are petty and corrupt (or a perv as you put it). The type of personality that is attracted to that type of business in preference of other viable options are generally people you do not want to know unless you are one of them. These types of people* generally lack social skills, are either VERY quiet or rowdy as hell outside the office, and have little or no empathy for other people. They also generally have no empathy whatsoever for any animals. They view animals as nothing more than poop factories or walking pieces of meat with no consideration at all for the pain they inflict. They will generally use the excuse of "I didn't think it could feel pain" when confronted, despite the fact they know full well that the animal was in excruciating pain from the torture they inflicted (which is the main reason they like doing what they do, but will never admit that).

/yes I have known people like this - they DO exist
//if they weren't slaughtering animals, it would be people

*people is loosely used in this context.

Have you ever been outside the c ...


So the fresh in the USA Mexicans doing most of the work in the industry are sadist? That's good to know
 
2013-03-18 10:00:07 AM  

Frederick: Something, something, Upton Sinclair something Corporatocracy.


It's a jungle out there.
 
2013-03-18 10:01:19 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Stone Meadow: Green Scorpio: I'm a voracious omnivore and I think I'll have a salad for lunch today...

Since I live in California where mistreating animals is seriously against the law, and whistle-blowers are protected, I think I'll have a grilled chicken breast with alfredo sauce for lunch (leftovers from last night).

Would you mind FedExing some this way?


To India? I don't mind, brah, but the 'dry ice charge' is likely to be excessive... ;^)
 
2013-03-18 10:44:41 AM  

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: I don't think they really separate meat from scared animals out from the meat of relaxed ones. Your value brand hot dogs are made from the amalgamated scraps of any carcass they could scrape some meat from. But yeah, fear changes the flavor of the meat.
 Problem: animals aren't stupid. I mean, they are, but they know the smell of death. They understand, on some level, what a trip to the slaughterhouse means, and their instincts are going to tell them to get the fark out of there. So how do you force a 1000lb animal that really, really doesn't want to die to go calmly to its death?


A little late here, and coffee hasn't kicked in so DRTFT completely. You may want to read up on Temple Grandin, an autistic woman who pioneered new slaughterhouse methods that vastly reduce stress on the animals, based in large part on her experiences with autism. Using new equipment and facility architecture, the animals are kept calm and largely oblivious to what's about to happen as they're herded into the slaughterhouse.
 
2013-03-18 10:45:30 AM  

Stone Meadow: HindiDiscoMonster: Stone Meadow: Green Scorpio: I'm a voracious omnivore and I think I'll have a salad for lunch today...

Since I live in California where mistreating animals is seriously against the law, and whistle-blowers are protected, I think I'll have a grilled chicken breast with alfredo sauce for lunch (leftovers from last night).

Would you mind FedExing some this way?

To India? I don't mind, brah, but the 'dry ice charge' is likely to be excessive... ;^)


It's okay, he works for Microsoft Suppport Systems (Yes, with 3 p's) and will walk you through Event Viewer to show you your infected computer.  Then they will remotely access your machine from Logmein to "clean" your machine.  He's rolling in the dough.
 
2013-03-18 11:54:38 AM  
DIAF for the people who abuse livestock

/got no problem with harvesting meat
//serious problem with abuse
 
2013-03-18 12:09:16 PM  
Mid_mo_mad_man: Marcintosh: Frederick: Something, something, Upton Sinclair something Corporatocracy.
SWEET JESUS; I'm not alone.
 Mid_mo_mad_man: jso2897: Mid_mo_mad_man: jso2897: WhiskeyBoy: I love crap like blah blah blah blah blah etc."
Yeah. You're right - abusers are a small minority, and not representative. That's why it stinks that these creeps are trying to make laws that will make it harder to expose them.
The problem with the undercover cameramen is lack of context. What appears like abuse to a guy in a Portland coffee house may be how it's suppose to be. I've butchered hogs, cattle, goats, chickens etc. Some of it looks cruel if you are clueless to it. Slaughtering livestock is not nice and tidy, nor can it be made that way
Probably true, and a reasonable argument of defense - but not an argument for making these laws. If what you do is defensible, why would you want people to be banned by law from recording it?
People in business NEVER want to be inconvenienced, or publicly embarrassed. I don't blame them - neither do I. But in the grown-up world of big boys and girls, we don't get that luxury.
Or I don't, anyway - why should they?
We need to abandon this weird social conviction that business and money are sacred and sacrosanct - it's extremely unwholesome for our entire society.
/p>
Are you allowed to walk into any other place of business and just start taping events? I think not. A private company should be able to bar access to its activities. The packing industry has been harassed for a long time. Maybe they need help keeping trouble at bay
That's not funny.  The packing industry makes politicians look like Nancy Drew.
You need to get out more and stop eating Pink Slime for christ sake


I've lived my whole life in the agriculture industry tyvm. I've forgetten more about life then you know.


Sorry to hear about your Alzheimer's
Well, that and you should get out more, you know, while you can.
 
2013-03-18 12:53:19 PM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: doglover: Mid_mo_mad_man: I'm ok with the banning of filming at slaughter houses. The business of butchering animals is never going to be pleasant.

Doesn't mean they should ban cameras.

The truth is life is vicious and bloody. People should know.

People should also know when is appropriate to show such videos and when is not.

You'll never legislate morality.

The problem is the trespassing and lying to obtain the footage



Because I am positive they'd invite you to feel free to film whatever you wanted.

DUH!!
 
2013-03-18 01:13:59 PM  
One recorded last year by Compassion over Killing at Central Valley Meats in Hanford, Calif. showed a worker standing on a downed dairy cow's nostrils to suffocate it and others repeatedly shot in the head, prompting several fast-food hamburger to cancel contracts, at least temporarily.

Animal welfare groups say investigations take weeks because the operatives nose around only when they aren't performing the duties for which they were hired.


Oooo, nice one
 
2013-03-18 01:14:12 PM  

Cold_Sassy: Mid_mo_mad_man: The problem is the trespassing and lying to obtain the footage

Because I am positive they'd invite you to feel free to film whatever you wanted. DUH!!


It's not trespassing if you're hired and expected to show up for work. And who has told a lie in this scenario? Somehow I doubt that the average farm or slaughter house asks its prospective employees, "Are you now or have you ever been a member of [insert long list of suspect NGOs]?" No...if anything they tell you they'll fire your ass if they catch you with a camera, and maybe threaten you with a lawsuit.

Moreover, "criminalizing" whistle-blower activities in mundane commercial and industrial settings places society on a slippery slope. What will be next? Will your employer get to send you to prison for smoking ciggies when the company discovers via Monday morning urinalysis that you smoked at a cocktail party last Saturday night, in violation of the company's no-smoking policy? Or get you 2 to 5 years for claiming a B average at college when it turns out you got a C+?

This is a dystopian future so repulsive not even Alito can stomach it. So as I said earlier, this is just Patterson trolling the Assembly on behalf of his leash holders.
 
2013-03-18 01:19:11 PM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: I'm ok with the banning of filming at slaughter houses. The business of butchering animals is never going to be pleasant.


You know, normally that phrase refers to the amount of blood that comes out, the instinctive sympathetic reaction to watching a living being die, even if you're a meat-eater, the fairly-disgusting way uncooked and unpackaged flesh looks...

Not  skinning a calf alive.
 
2013-03-18 01:29:10 PM  

PsiChick: You know, normally that phrase refers to the amount of blood that comes out, the instinctive sympathetic reaction to watching a living being die, even if you're a meat-eater, the fairly-disgusting way uncooked and unpackaged flesh looks...


Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man
 
2013-03-18 02:27:58 PM  
michaelchinen.com

It's the American Way!
 
2013-03-18 03:05:25 PM  

whither_apophis: If only cows had guns...

/bad cow pun


It's the chickens with choppers I'm worried about.
 
2013-03-18 04:41:57 PM  

NephilimNexus: [michaelchinen.com image 500x338]

It's the American Way!


Look at all that meat!
 
2013-03-18 06:30:04 PM  

WhiskeyBoy: Anyway, if you think farms are dens of animal abuse and filth, drive out to the country, find a hog farm or a dairy or whatever, and drive down the driveway and ring the bell of the home. Ask whoever answers if you can volunteer some time to "see how a farm works". Mention you live in the city, and want a taste of "country life". These things will humor the farmer, and he will laugh at your cosmopolitan, sissy ways and give you a laundry list of chores to be done that day more difficult than what you typically accomplish in a month.


Coincidentally, this appeared in my inbox today:

Dear Ma and Pa,

I am well. Hope you are too.

The Marine Corps beats working for old man Minch by a mile. I was restless at first because you got to stay in bed till nearly 5:00 a.m., but am getting so I like to sleep late.

Tell brother Walt and brother Elmer that all you do in the Marines before breakfast is smooth your cot and shine some things. No hogs to slop, feed to pitch, mash to mix, wood to split, fire to lay. Practically nothing. Men got to shave but it is not so bad -- there's warm water.

A Marine Corps breakfast is strong on trimmings like fruit juice, cereal, eggs, bacon, etc., but kind of weak on chops, potatoes, ham, steak, fried eggplant, pie and other regular food. But tell Walt and Elmer you can always sit between two city boys that live on coffee. Their food plus yours holds you till noon, when you get fed again. It's no wonder these city boys can't walk much.

As Marines we're expected to go on "route" marches, which the Platoon Sergeant says are long walks to harden us. If he thinks so, it is not my place to tell him different. A "route march" is about as far as to our mailbox at home. Then the city guys get sore feet and we all ride back in trucks. The country is nice, but awful flat. The Sergeant is like a schoolteacher. He nags some.

The Captain is like the school board. Majors and Colonels just ride around and frown. They don't bother you none.

This next will kill Walt and Elmer with laughing. I keep getting medals for shooting. I don't know why. The bullseye is near as big as a chipmunk head and don't move. And it ain't shooting at you, like the Higgett boys at home. All you got to do is lie there all comfortable and hit it. You don't even load your own cartridges. They come in boxes.

Then we have what they call hand-to-hand combat training. You get to wrestle with them city boys. I have to be real careful though, they break real easy. It ain't like fighting with that ol' bull at home. I'm about the best they got in this except for that Tug Jordan from over in Silver Lake. He joined up the same time as me. But I'm only 5'6" and 130 pounds and he's 6'8" and weighs near 300 pounds dry.

Be sure to tell Walt and Elmer to hurry and join before other fellers get onto this setup and come stampeding in.

Your loving daughter,
Tammy Gail
 
2013-03-18 08:40:49 PM  

Bravo Two: Allow me to be the first to say...so farking what? They're food.


Not for me. I don't contribute to the cruel, wasteful, unsustainable meat industry.

"If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian."
--Paul McCartney
 
2013-03-18 08:49:12 PM  

destrip: Bravo Two: Allow me to be the first to say...so farking what? They're food.

Not for me. I don't contribute to the cruel, wasteful, unsustainable meat industry.

"If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian."
--Paul McCartney


People slaughter and process their food on their own all the time.  Deer hunting is literally a rite of passage in Wisconsin.
 
2013-03-18 09:39:38 PM  

destrip: "If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian."
--Paul McCartney


Nah...

4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-03-18 10:05:45 PM  

Molavian: People slaughter and process their food on their own all the time. Deer hunting is literally a rite of passage in Wisconsin.


I spent January processing deer meat at my sister's house in TN.

Ground deer makes amazing tacos.
 
2013-03-18 11:50:07 PM  

whither_apophis: If only cows had guns...

/bad cow pun


nohiddenmagenta.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-03-19 05:31:31 AM  
While people who mistreat animals are scum and deserve what they get, the people who pass themselves off as workers and spend their time "investigating" are also being fradulent. If inspections are needed, then we need undercover inspectors, not PETA activists. It is too easy to photograph a single animal in distress, edit out the thousands of other animals not in distress, and get the plant closed down - which doesn't help the animals at all unless they were being systematically abused. The object of these people is not to get the perps brought up on charges and reduce inhumane methods, but rather to damage the meat and poultry industry as much as possible. So in that respect I understand where the industry is coming from.

No, the real issue is that the FDA is being used as a tool to shut down small farms and co-ops bringing farmer and consumer directly together. This is happening all over the US, and if you want to make serious changes, just get the FDA to allow consumers free choice as to what they buy for personal consumption. The mass produced stuff is dirtier and no cheaper once you factor in the current system requiring farmers o process through regional centers rather than be able to slaughter and prepare themselves.
 
2013-03-19 12:04:04 PM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: The problem with the undercover cameramen is lack of context. What appears like abuse to a guy in a Portland coffee house may be how it's suppose to be. I've butchered hogs, cattle, goats, chickens etc. Some of it looks cruel if you are clueless to it. Slaughtering livestock is not nice and tidy, nor can it be made that way


So, how many of these videos have you actually seen? Out of those, how many were of appropriate treatment miscontexualized as abuse?

I'm not saying it can't happen, but I get the feeling you're arguing against what you think might be happening rather than what actually is happening.

The "guy in a Portland coffee house" might not be your best example either, seeing as Portland is currently the center of an artesian butchering movement.
 
2013-03-19 12:06:12 PM  

j0ndas: It is too easy to photograph a single animal in distress, edit out the thousands of other animals not in distress, and get the plant closed down


Is it? What plants have been closed down?
 
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