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(Opposing Views)   CNN host Candy Crowley and reporter Poppy Harlow are almost in tears over the "ruined lives" of the two Steubenville, Ohio teen football players who were found guilty of gang-raping a 16-year-old girl   (opposingviews.com) divider line 659
    More: Sick, Steubenville, Candy Crowley, Poppy Harlow, CNN, CNN host, Ohio, guilty verdicts, rapists  
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20157 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Mar 2013 at 6:09 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-17 09:19:49 PM  
I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.
 
2013-03-17 09:43:04 PM  

feckingmorons: I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.


SO. MUCH. THIS.
 
2013-03-17 09:48:53 PM  
i470.photobucket.com

Shameful.
 
2013-03-17 09:53:52 PM  
I think this is a foot in mouth moment.

If you read it it seems like she is disappointed that they threw their young lives away. She is not saying that the rapists are good people or that they don't deserve what they are about to expect, nor does she say anything bad about the victim or show the victim in any negative light.

TLDR; she could have said it better
 
2013-03-17 09:55:08 PM  

penthesilea: [i470.photobucket.com image 500x333]

Shameful.


Contrast that with FoxNews who quotes the mother of the young woman who was criminally assaulted saying "[This crime]does not define who my daughter is. She will persevere, grow and move on."

That is exactly the story that needs to be told. Crime victims, and especially victims of sexual battery, are indeed victims. The criminals are not to be pitied for their poor choices, they are to be imprisoned.

Like Fox News or not (and I don't really watch any of the cable news) that is the right story, not how these two idiots ruined their lives by engaging in criminal sexual battery and other crimes. Screw them.
 
2013-03-17 09:56:44 PM  

cman: I think this is a foot in mouth moment.

If you read it it seems like she is disappointed that they threw their young lives away. She is not saying that the rapists are good people or that they don't deserve what they are about to expect, nor does she say anything bad about the victim or show the victim in any negative light.

TLDR; she could have said it better


Why be an apologist for these 'journalists'? They insist on giving us opinion rather than news. Journalism is dead in this country, we have hand wringing actors who bring us snippets of news cloaked in opinion and maudlin sentimentality.
 
2013-03-17 10:00:42 PM  

cman: I think this is a foot in mouth moment.

If you read it it seems like she is disappointed that they threw their young lives away. She is not saying that the rapists are good people or that they don't deserve what they are about to expect, nor does she say anything bad about the victim or show the victim in any negative light.

TLDR; she could have said it better


The problem is that no one even gives a shiat about the victim. I don't care AT ALL what a rapist's future plans were, and I CERTAINLY don't think those plans should be part and parcel of the post-verdict discussion.

"The accused planned to buy a home in No Rape County, Utah- however, the county has numerous schools, and it is unlikely he will be able to find a home more than 500 yards from school property. It is currently unknown where he plans to move once he leaves prison." -five news stations

"Man, what's the guy's CURRENT house going to be worth when he gets out? #plansruined #farkfeminism" -twitter
 
2013-03-17 10:00:59 PM  

feckingmorons: cman: I think this is a foot in mouth moment.

If you read it it seems like she is disappointed that they threw their young lives away. She is not saying that the rapists are good people or that they don't deserve what they are about to expect, nor does she say anything bad about the victim or show the victim in any negative light.

TLDR; she could have said it better

Why be an apologist for these 'journalists'? They insist on giving us opinion rather than news. Journalism is dead in this country, we have hand wringing actors who bring us snippets of news cloaked in opinion and maudlin sentimentality.


Apologist?

Motherfarker I am always biatching about the media being News Entertainment (coined in the spirit of Vince McMahon's Sports Entertainment) instead of real news.
 
2013-03-17 10:01:53 PM  

feckingmorons: I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.


This is literally the first thing you've said that I agree with.
 
2013-03-17 10:03:58 PM  
Also, I liked all the people talking about how this is a "cautionary tale" about using social media. In the old days, athletes beat rape charges by hiding evidence, not posting it online!
 
2013-03-17 10:05:19 PM  

kingoomieiii: The problem is that no one even gives a shiat about the victim. I don't care AT ALL what a rapist's future plans were, and I CERTAINLY don't think those plans should be part and parcel of the post-verdict discussion.


That is kind of a difficult subject for discussion on news stations.

Most times news organizations dont name the victims of sexual assault, especially when they are minors.

It is very likely that the people who are on news TV (such as pundits) have no basic information. What do we know about her? She's 16 and she went to a party and got drunk. Not much to go on.
 
2013-03-17 10:08:12 PM  
Imdo take some solace. Even if CNN has their head up their ass, Anon doesn't. I hope they hound these rapists and make their post prison lives a living hell.
 
2013-03-17 10:10:01 PM  

cman: kingoomieiii: The problem is that no one even gives a shiat about the victim. I don't care AT ALL what a rapist's future plans were, and I CERTAINLY don't think those plans should be part and parcel of the post-verdict discussion.

That is kind of a difficult subject for discussion on news stations.

Most times news organizations dont name the victims of sexual assault, especially when they are minors.

It is very likely that the people who are on news TV (such as pundits) have no basic information. What do we know about her? She's 16 and she went to a party and got drunk. Not much to go on.


I guess if it were legal to NOT fill 24 hours of news with schlock they might have been able to stop the story at the verdict itself.
 
2013-03-17 10:14:38 PM  
Poppy Harlow: "... had such promising futures, star football player, very good students...."

Just as an aside; would they have been talking about these boys ruining their lives if they were not football players? If they had been, perhaps, very good students and members of the school band?

The lack of interest in the victim doesn't surprise me at all. I've known that since the beginning of the Penn State scandal when so people were all broke up over losing a coach and had no sympathy for the alleged victims.
 
2013-03-17 10:15:57 PM  

Philbb: Just as an aside; would they have been talking about these boys ruining their lives if they were not football players? If they had been, perhaps, very good students and members of the school band?


From Gawker-

For readers interested in learning more about how not to be labeled as registered sex offenders, a good first step is not to rape unconscious women, no matter how good your grades are. Regardless of the strength of your GPA (weighted or unweighted), if you commit rape, there is a possibility you may someday be convicted of a sex crime. This is because of your decision to commit a sex crime instead of going for a walk, or reading a book by Cormac McCarthy. Your ability to perform calculus or play football is generally not taken into consideration in a court of law. Should you prefer to be known as "Good student and excellent football player Trent Mays" rather than "Convicted sex offender Trent Mays," try stressing the studying and tackling and giving the sex crimes a miss altogether.
 
2013-03-17 10:18:36 PM  

cman: Motherfarker I am always biatching about the media being News Entertainment (coined in the spirit of Vince McMahon's Sports Entertainment) instead of real news.


Oh, OK.

My short term memory has been shot for years, and the long term is going.
 
2013-03-17 10:19:44 PM  
I find it curious that those who defend Fox journalism all of a sudden are outraged about this.
 
2013-03-17 10:21:32 PM  

kingoomieiii: Philbb: Just as an aside; would they have been talking about these boys ruining their lives if they were not football players? If they had been, perhaps, very good students and members of the school band?

From Gawker-

For readers interested in learning more about how not to be labeled as registered sex offenders, a good first step is not to rape unconscious women, no matter how good your grades are. Regardless of the strength of your GPA (weighted or unweighted), if you commit rape, there is a possibility you may someday be convicted of a sex crime. This is because of your decision to commit a sex crime instead of going for a walk, or reading a book by Cormac McCarthy. Your ability to perform calculus or play football is generally not taken into consideration in a court of law. Should you prefer to be known as "Good student and excellent football player Trent Mays" rather than "Convicted sex offender Trent Mays," try stressing the studying and tackling and giving the sex crimes a miss altogether.



That is brilliant. It is so simple, yet people think it is a joke.

Don't want to be labeled a rapist, don't be a rapist.
 
2013-03-17 10:28:43 PM  

bronyaur1: I find it curious that those who defend Fox journalism all of a sudden are outraged about this.


Meh, they have something legitimate to smear CNN with for a change.  Of course, since nobody actually watches CNN, this is really not doing a whole lot, but they like to pretend they matter.
 
2013-03-17 11:09:01 PM  

kingoomieiii: Philbb: Just as an aside; would they have been talking about these boys ruining their lives if they were not football players? If they had been, perhaps, very good students and members of the school band?

From Gawker-

For readers interested in learning more about how not to be labeled as registered sex offenders, a good first step is not to rape unconscious women, no matter how good your grades are. Regardless of the strength of your GPA (weighted or unweighted), if you commit rape, there is a possibility you may someday be convicted of a sex crime. This is because of your decision to commit a sex crime instead of going for a walk, or reading a book by Cormac McCarthy. Your ability to perform calculus or play football is generally not taken into consideration in a court of law. Should you prefer to be known as "Good student and excellent football player Trent Mays" rather than "Convicted sex offender Trent Mays," try stressing the studying and tackling and giving the sex crimes a miss altogether.


Of course there's not a single thing that I disagree with there. I'm talking about commentary and news coverage not a court of law. I ask because I have only seen one article/story about this that didn't mention they were football players.
 
2013-03-17 11:17:44 PM  

GAT_00: bronyaur1: I find it curious that those who defend Fox journalism all of a sudden are outraged about this.

Meh, they have something legitimate to smear CNN with for a change.  Of course, since nobody actually watches CNN, this is really not doing a whole lot, but they like to pretend they matter.


GAT_00: bronyaur1: I find it curious that those who defend Fox journalism all of a sudden are outraged about this.

Meh, they have something legitimate to smear CNN with for a change.  Of course, since nobody actually watches CNN, this is really not doing a whole lot, but they like to pretend they matter.


I don't really watch any of the cable news stations (or broadcast news stations in the US for that matter) save the local cable one. Not that you can see this because you ignore opinions that are not in lockstep with yours.
 
2013-03-17 11:25:14 PM  
Sounds like they caught a pretty big break to me.  Fark 'em.

Also, who the hell is surprised when CNN sucks anymore?
 
2013-03-17 11:27:00 PM  

feckingmorons: I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.


Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives?  Thats what will ruin their lives and any chance of decent employment.
 
2013-03-17 11:34:35 PM  
Seemed like pretty typical shiatty tabloid-esque coverage to me.  I didn't think the women were too horrible, but they were far from good.  The guy sounded pretty dickish.

Yeah, they should have shown some concern for the victim, but without a name, a face, and some sobbing on film, they don't have much.

About what I'd expect from CNN
 
2013-03-17 11:36:21 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Seemed like pretty typical shiatty tabloid-esque coverage to me.  I didn't think the women were too horrible, but they were far from good.  The guy sounded pretty dickish.

Yeah, they should have shown some concern for the victim, but without a name, a face, and some sobbing on film, they don't have much.

About what I'd expect from CNN


But it gives such a good excuse for people who claim they never ever watch CNN to get outraged.
 
2013-03-17 11:38:58 PM  

feckingmorons: I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.


Exactly.
Boo-farking-hoo.
 
2013-03-17 11:43:42 PM  
Meh, people can talk to the points of the victim not putting themselves in compromising situations, but the fact remains that you don't take sexual advantage of people who are not able to defend or consent for themselves.  I'm sure these boys have been told this, if not, then their parents failed them, because anymore, you damn well better have a talk to your kid about legalities of such behavior.

/sad for both sides
//but it's hard to garner any sympathy for the boys
 
2013-03-17 11:46:02 PM  

penthesilea: [i470.photobucket.com image 500x333]

Shameful.


Pretty damn much.
 
2013-03-17 11:51:42 PM  
Krymson Tyde: Of course he is, but he still needs his testicles kicked into his sinuses.
 
2013-03-17 11:53:05 PM  
These young men are damn lucky to have gotten off this easy, and not in someplace, like say, Texas, where a judge might have looked askance if the young men happened to have had horrible accidents like falling onto a couple of baseball bats several dozen times, or drowned themselves in their own toilets...
 
2013-03-18 12:32:16 AM  

GAT_00: Lionel Mandrake: Seemed like pretty typical shiatty tabloid-esque coverage to me.  I didn't think the women were too horrible, but they were far from good.  The guy sounded pretty dickish.

Yeah, they should have shown some concern for the victim, but without a name, a face, and some sobbing on film, they don't have much.

About what I'd expect from CNN

But it gives such a good excuse for people who claim they never ever watch CNN to get outraged.


Some people who do watch CNN and report on it let us all in on the absurdity of it.

You'll figure it out some day. Maybe.
 
2013-03-18 01:12:07 AM  

feckingmorons: I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.


Exactly.
 
2013-03-18 01:21:35 AM  

feckingmorons: GAT_00: bronyaur1: I find it curious that those who defend Fox journalism all of a sudden are outraged about this.

Meh, they have something legitimate to smear CNN with for a change.  Of course, since nobody actually watches CNN, this is really not doing a whole lot, but they like to pretend they matter.

GAT_00: bronyaur1: I find it curious that those who defend Fox journalism all of a sudden are outraged about this.

Meh, they have something legitimate to smear CNN with for a change.  Of course, since nobody actually watches CNN, this is really not doing a whole lot, but they like to pretend they matter.

I don't really watch any of the cable news stations (or broadcast news stations in the US for that matter) save the local cable one. Not that you can see this because you ignore opinions that are not in lockstep with yours.


Try watching Bloomberg News.  Informative with little shouting and cute reporters.

cdn.gotraffic.netcdn.gotraffic.net
 
2013-03-18 01:27:40 AM  

GAT_00: Lionel Mandrake: Seemed like pretty typical shiatty tabloid-esque coverage to me.  I didn't think the women were too horrible, but they were far from good.  The guy sounded pretty dickish.

Yeah, they should have shown some concern for the victim, but without a name, a face, and some sobbing on film, they don't have much.

About what I'd expect from CNN

But it gives such a good excuse for people who claim they never ever watch CNN to get outraged.


Is there anyone who claims to actually watch CNN?
 
2013-03-18 01:34:31 AM  
What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.
 
2013-03-18 01:38:15 AM  

rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.


You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/172024/americas-rape-problem-we-refuse -a dmit-there-one#
 
2013-03-18 01:47:31 AM  

Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/172024/americas-rape-problem-we-refuse -a dmit-there-one#


At least people in India are starting to admit they have a problem, most Americans are convinced that we're all find and dandy.

One of my friends (and occasional farker) took part in this demonstration in Delhi this week where men held signs apologizing and making the statement that the change starts with them. I'd be shocked to ever see something like that here in the US.
 
2013-03-18 01:51:55 AM  

rynthetyn: Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/172024/americas-rape-problem-we-refuse -a dmit-there-one#

At least people in India are starting to admit they have a problem, most Americans are convinced that we're all find and dandy.

One of my friends (and occasional farker) took part in this demonstration in Delhi this week where men held signs apologizing and making the statement that the change starts with them. I'd be shocked to ever see something like that here in the US.


Same. See: Any thread ever where a feminist points out that we need to teach sexual consent to teenagers, i.e. that women need to be taught that it's ok to say yes when we want to have sex and that young men need to be taught to firmly respect a "no".

The idea that men need to be taught not to rape makes people furious, but I mean... watch the video embedded in this link. The young men talking clearly haven't been taught not to rape. They haven't been taught to respect sexual boundaries. And the scary part is they aren't out of the ordinary! These guys remind me of numerous boys I knew in high school and college.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/01/steubenville-high-fo ot ball-rape-crew/60554/
 
2013-03-18 02:03:19 AM  

Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/172024/americas-rape-problem-we-refuse -a dmit-there-one#

At least people in India are starting to admit they have a problem, most Americans are convinced that we're all find and dandy.

One of my friends (and occasional farker) took part in this demonstration in Delhi this week where men held signs apologizing and making the statement that the change starts with them. I'd be shocked to ever see something like that here in the US.

Same. See: Any thread ever where a feminist points out that we need to teach sexual consent to teenagers, i.e. that women need to be taught that it's ok to say yes when we want to have sex and that young men need to be taught to firmly respect a "no".

The idea that men need to be taught not to rape makes people furious, but I mean... watch the video embedded in this link. The young men talking clearly haven't been taught not to rape. They haven't been taught to respect sexual boundaries. And the scary part is they aren't out of the ordinary! These guys remind me of numerous boys I knew in high school and college.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/01/steubenville-high-fo ot ball-rape-crew/60554/


How does one teach others not to rape?

I hate to say this, but rape is part of humanity. It is an aspect of the animal kingdom as well. Even though we are an enlightened species we still have those who either dont care about others or those who have no self control. How do you teach against that?

You cannot teach a man to feel emotions. Emotions must come from within. They dont care about their victims. To them they are more important than anyone else in the world.

We can never stop it. However, there are things that we can do to minimize it. Although some people might not care about others, they sure as shiat do care what others think of them. Humans are social animals. They need other people. Shunning sexual abusers from the community and making their lives a living hell may get them to think that the reward is not worth the risk.
 
2013-03-18 02:10:19 AM  

cman: How does one teach others not to rape?


Well, for starters, we teach them to view other people as fully human. We don't teach young men that women are stupid, annoying, nags that only exist to be farked.

We also teach all young people a real idea of sexual consent. That sex is a healthy, positive thing as long as appropriate health precautions are taken and as long as both parties enthusiastically consent. We teach teenagers that sex isn't something that makes a boy a man and makes a woman a whore- we teach them that sex is something positive when both parties want it and it's gone into willingly and responsibly.
 
2013-03-18 02:17:42 AM  

Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/172024/americas-rape-problem-we-refuse -a dmit-there-one#

At least people in India are starting to admit they have a problem, most Americans are convinced that we're all find and dandy.

One of my friends (and occasional farker) took part in this demonstration in Delhi this week where men held signs apologizing and making the statement that the change starts with them. I'd be shocked to ever see something like that here in the US.

Same. See: Any thread ever where a feminist points out that we need to teach sexual consent to teenagers, i.e. that women need to be taught that it's ok to say yes when we want to have sex and that young men need to be taught to firmly respect a "no".

The idea that men need to be taught not to rape makes people furious, but I mean... watch the video embedded in this link. The young men talking clearly haven't been taught not to rape. They haven't been taught to respect sexual boundaries. And the scary part is they aren't out of the ordinary! These guys remind me of numerous boys I knew in high school and college.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/01/steubenville-high-fo ot ball-rape-crew/60554/


Yeah, it reminds me of how I created a minor shiatstorm in undergrad by objecting when a student posted the "Fourteen Biblical Ways to Find a Wife" as humor on the campus discussion board (something like this, only worse) in which one of the ways was, "Rape a virgin, then she'll have to marry you." It wasn't something where people were pointing out that you shouldn't emulate everything in the Bible, dude posted it because he genuinely thought it was funny. When I objected to the "rape a virgin" one, I got told that I lacked a sense of humor, and when I suggested that the fact that so many people thought rape jokes were funny certainly didn't make me feel any safer on campus I was told that I was being irrational and, "you can't possibly think that anybody is going to rape you." Some of the faculty stood up for me in saying that rape jokes weren't acceptable, but for the most part the student body acted like I was some sort of over-sensitive whiner.

Oh, and lest people who are reading this and remember that I've said I went to a conservative school for undergrad think it was a function of the school I went to, in crim law at my large, tier 1, state university there was an awful lot of pissed off former athletes and frat boys when the crim law professor said that sports teams and fraternities have a well-documented problem with the concept of consent and gang rape.  People weren't exactly fond of her making clear that drunk women can't consent under any circumstance.
 
2013-03-18 02:19:34 AM  
That's actually what feminists mean when we say purity culture is rape culture. Sex is something humans are always going to desire, and when we turn it into this forbidden, dirty thing- really bad dynamics emerge.

If you listen to the justifications a lot of people from this town made, they centered around the idea that this girl was a whore. That she was dirty and therefore brought this on herself.

That's rape culture. That's how it works. It's the idea that a woman who has consented to sex a few times has therefore consented to sex all of the time. It's the idea that a girl who wears something too revealing (And those standards are totally arbitrary) is asking to be raped. It's all the messed up ideas that surround this dynamic where men are supposed to want sex all the time and women are supposed to acknowledge that and fend it off at all times.

That's not healthy. This is what it creates.
 
2013-03-18 02:53:17 AM  

rynthetyn: most Americans are convinced that we're all fine and dandy.


I completely disagree with that, though I understand your frustration, and I share it as best I can, as a dude. But we have to work together on this, and terms we see like "rape culture" are only a divisive sideshow, IMHO. If we can put that nonsense aside perhaps we can get to addressing the issue.
 
2013-03-18 02:56:15 AM  

violentsalvation: rynthetyn: most Americans are convinced that we're all fine and dandy.

I completely disagree with that, though I understand your frustration, and I share it as best I can, as a dude. But we have to work together on this, and terms we see like "rape culture" are only a divisive sideshow, IMHO. If we can put that nonsense aside perhaps we can get to addressing the issue.


... how are terms like "rape culture" a divisive sideshow when the issue we're talking about is a culture that blames victims of rape and makes excuses for rapists?
 
2013-03-18 02:56:34 AM  

Genevieve Marie: That's actually what feminists mean when we say purity culture is rape culture. Sex is something humans are always going to desire, and when we turn it into this forbidden, dirty thing- really bad dynamics emerge.

If you listen to the justifications a lot of people from this town made, they centered around the idea that this girl was a whore. That she was dirty and therefore brought this on herself.

That's rape culture. That's how it works. It's the idea that a woman who has consented to sex a few times has therefore consented to sex all of the time. It's the idea that a girl who wears something too revealing (And those standards are totally arbitrary) is asking to be raped. It's all the messed up ideas that surround this dynamic where men are supposed to want sex all the time and women are supposed to acknowledge that and fend it off at all times.

That's not healthy. This is what it creates.


I grew up smack dab in the middle of purity culture (like, for reals, a bunch of my friends were the sort who wore shapeless denim jumpers and courtship was king), and it was pretty absurd how it made girls afraid of showing even the slightest bit too much skin but there was almost nothing telling guys not to be creepy pervs. It's all about telling girls not to dress in a way that might cause a guy to lust. This was during that unfortunate era when dresses like this (but with big puffy sleeves) were popular and girls I knew who were 10 or 11 would talk about how they weren't allowed to wear them because they "point at women's privates." But again, never any message about how the only people who would be thinking that looking at a young girl are complete and total pervs.

I'm not entirely sure how, probably because my parents put virtually no restrictions on what I read and I ended up reading the right sort of books and articles, but I never bought into the idea that it was somehow a woman's fault if she's assaulted. If I'd been paying attention to the messages I was getting from the culture around me though, I would have come to totally different conclusions.
 
2013-03-18 02:58:03 AM  

Genevieve Marie: violentsalvation: rynthetyn: most Americans are convinced that we're all fine and dandy.

I completely disagree with that, though I understand your frustration, and I share it as best I can, as a dude. But we have to work together on this, and terms we see like "rape culture" are only a divisive sideshow, IMHO. If we can put that nonsense aside perhaps we can get to addressing the issue.

... how are terms like "rape culture" a divisive sideshow when the issue we're talking about is a culture that blames victims of rape and makes excuses for rapists?


Also, I didn't even mention "rape culture". Bringing it up as a deflection is just another way of making excuses to avoid dealing with the problem.
 
2013-03-18 02:59:12 AM  

rynthetyn: I'm not entirely sure how, probably because my parents put virtually no restrictions on what I read and I ended up reading the right sort of books and articles, but I never bought into the idea that it was somehow a woman's fault if she's assaulted. If I'd been paying attention to the messages I was getting from the culture around me though, I would have come to totally different conclusions.


God bless Judy Blume. She saved a generation of women from growing up with weird ideas about sex.
 
2013-03-18 03:00:26 AM  
If any trained circus monkey in the NFL, NBA, NHL NASCAR etc, is your child's role model, you have failed as a parent.
 
2013-03-18 03:00:41 AM  

rynthetyn: Genevieve Marie: violentsalvation: rynthetyn: most Americans are convinced that we're all fine and dandy.

I completely disagree with that, though I understand your frustration, and I share it as best I can, as a dude. But we have to work together on this, and terms we see like "rape culture" are only a divisive sideshow, IMHO. If we can put that nonsense aside perhaps we can get to addressing the issue.

... how are terms like "rape culture" a divisive sideshow when the issue we're talking about is a culture that blames victims of rape and makes excuses for rapists?

Also, I didn't even mention "rape culture". Bringing it up as a deflection is just another way of making excuses to avoid dealing with the problem.


Yup. Typical concern troll derailing of the subject.

"I agree with you there's a problem, but we can only talk about it in terms that I am comfortable with which sidestep that problem and don't acknowledge this exists, and somehow, this will solve everything."
 
2013-03-18 03:07:54 AM  

Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: I'm not entirely sure how, probably because my parents put virtually no restrictions on what I read and I ended up reading the right sort of books and articles, but I never bought into the idea that it was somehow a woman's fault if she's assaulted. If I'd been paying attention to the messages I was getting from the culture around me though, I would have come to totally different conclusions.

God bless Judy Blume. She saved a generation of women from growing up with weird ideas about sex.


I actually never read Judy Blume. My reading material was either what my mom checked out of the library for us to read or books that I came across in the library that looked interesting, and Judy Blume never fell into either category. I read tons of what I now know were highly subversive children's authors though, not to mention that I was checking books out of the main section of the library from when I was in 2nd or 3rd grade with very little supervision, so who knows.
 
2013-03-18 03:11:44 AM  

Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: Genevieve Marie: violentsalvation: rynthetyn: most Americans are convinced that we're all fine and dandy.

I completely disagree with that, though I understand your frustration, and I share it as best I can, as a dude. But we have to work together on this, and terms we see like "rape culture" are only a divisive sideshow, IMHO. If we can put that nonsense aside perhaps we can get to addressing the issue.

... how are terms like "rape culture" a divisive sideshow when the issue we're talking about is a culture that blames victims of rape and makes excuses for rapists?

Also, I didn't even mention "rape culture". Bringing it up as a deflection is just another way of making excuses to avoid dealing with the problem.

Yup. Typical concern troll derailing of the subject.

"I agree with you there's a problem, but we can only talk about it in terms that I am comfortable with which sidestep that problem and don't acknowledge this exists, and somehow, this will solve everything."


Yup, I'm a troll, OKAY. I was trying to sidestep you, guess that didn't work. Sorry if you think our culture inherently condones rape. But there are plenty of us who want to help and change things without trodding on a pile of neofeministic bullshiat like "rape culture".

sigh

I'm going to bed. Take care.
 
2013-03-18 03:18:58 AM  

violentsalvation: Yup, I'm a troll, OKAY. I was trying to sidestep you, guess that didn't work. Sorry if you think our culture inherently condones rape. But there are plenty of us who want to help and change things without trodding on a pile of neofeministic bullshiat like "rape culture".

sigh

I'm going to bed. Take care.


I should have probably phrased that differently and used the verb instead of the noun, but what you were doing is generally referred to as concern trolling. It's not the same thing as trolling in general- it's professing to be concerned about an issue, but then objecting to how others address that issue without offering a better alternative or a reasoned criticism.

And yes, our culture inherently condones rape. That's the entire issue here. That's what this case was all about. You should be able to look at what happened here and at least acknowledge that these young men were surrounded by adults who were more interested in preserving the status quo than they were in doing what was right. That none of them had been taught basic ideas about sexual consent.

This is something  feminists have been discussing for years and years and years- but generally, when we make that point, it gets laughed off as "neofeministic bullshiat" and people deny that it exists. And then when a case pops up that shows that we've got a point, people react by criticizing how we make that point.

It's a bit exhausting. If you're actually interested in helping to change that cultural attitude, maybe you should stop writing off other people's opinions just because they're not phrased in a way that's designed to make you comfortable.
 
2013-03-18 03:48:25 AM  

Genevieve Marie: violentsalvation: Yup, I'm a troll, OKAY. I was trying to sidestep you, guess that didn't work. Sorry if you think our culture inherently condones rape. But there are plenty of us who want to help and change things without trodding on a pile of neofeministic bullshiat like "rape culture".

sigh

I'm going to bed. Take care.

I should have probably phrased that differently and used the verb instead of the noun, but what you were doing is generally referred to as concern trolling. It's not the same thing as trolling in general- it's professing to be concerned about an issue, but then objecting to how others address that issue without offering a better alternative or a reasoned criticism.

And yes, our culture inherently condones rape. That's the entire issue here. That's what this case was all about. You should be able to look at what happened here and at least acknowledge that these young men were surrounded by adults who were more interested in preserving the status quo than they were in doing what was right. That none of them had been taught basic ideas about sexual consent.

This is something  feminists have been discussing for years and years and years- but generally, when we make that point, it gets laughed off as "neofeministic bullshiat" and people deny that it exists. And then when a case pops up that shows that we've got a point, people react by criticizing how we make that point.

It's a bit exhausting. If you're actually interested in helping to change that cultural attitude, maybe you should stop writing off other people's opinions just because they're not phrased in a way that's designed to make you comfortable.


I realized I had to do a bunch of ironing for the coming week, so I'm still up, and just typing this I'm remembering I need to fill up the dog water pails. I'll do what I can, GM. I'm trying to teach kids to pitch for my church's youth baseball team, they're young adults really. I will see to it I get a "respect the no" speech in.

I really do want to help, even though we disagree a whole hell of a lot.
 
2013-03-18 03:51:04 AM  

violentsalvation: I realized I had to do a bunch of ironing for the coming week, so I'm still up, and just typing this I'm remembering I need to fill up the dog water pails. I'll do what I can, GM. I'm trying to teach kids to pitch for my church's youth baseball team, they're young adults really. I will see to it I get a "respect the no" speech in.

I really do want to help, even though we disagree a whole hell of a lot.


And that's awesome and I respect the hell out of that. Throw in a "And it's never ok to call a girl a whore" speech too if you can.

Honestly, I think if you spent some time really reading about what feminists mean when they say rape culture, you wouldn't find the term nearly as loaded or as offensive. It sounds like to some degree, you do recognize it, you just don't use that term.
 
2013-03-18 04:14:49 AM  
Ooh. This is a great piece about exactly why this particular case demonstrates rape culture so well.

http://cognoscenti.wbur.org/2013/03/12/steubenville-sarah-sobieraj
 
2013-03-18 04:39:44 AM  
When it comes down to it, when it takes Anonymous, who are hardly the paragons of virtue and good taste, raising a stink for anything to happen, it demonstrates just how messed up our culture is. If something appalls them, you know it's bad, yet the media didn't give a crap until Anonymous made it too big of a story to go away.
 
2013-03-18 05:47:24 AM  

feckingmorons: That is brilliant. It is so simple, yet people think it is a joke.

Don't want to be labeled a rapist, don't be a rapist.


Yup. Just like that old joke about Sam, the construction company owner, giving a speech at a party:
"You know," he laments to his friends, "over the years I have constructed dozens of enormous projects in and around this city, but am I known as Sam the Builder? No.
            "And over the years I have contributed literally millions of dollars to charitable causes of one sort or another, but am I called Sam the Philanthropist? No, sir.
            "But suck one little cock..."
 
2013-03-18 06:09:20 AM  

cman: Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/172024/americas-rape-problem-we-refuse -a dmit-there-one#

At least people in India are starting to admit they have a problem, most Americans are convinced that we're all find and dandy.

One of my friends (and occasional farker) took part in this demonstration in Delhi this week where men held signs apologizing and making the statement that the change starts with them. I'd be shocked to ever see something like that here in the US.

Same. See: Any thread ever where a feminist points out that we need to teach sexual consent to teenagers, i.e. that women need to be taught that it's ok to say yes when we want to have sex and that young men need to be taught to firmly respect a "no".

The idea that men need to be taught not to rape makes people furious, but I mean... watch the video embedded in this link. The young men talking clearly haven't been taught not to rape. They haven't been taught to respect sexual boundaries. And the scary part is they aren't out of the ordinary! These guys remind me of numerous boys I knew in high school and college.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/01/steubenville-high-fo ot ball-rape-crew/60554/

How does one teach others not to rape?

I hate to say this, but rape is part of humanity. It is an aspect of the animal kingdom as well. Even though we are an enlightened species we still have those who either dont care about others or those who have no self control. How do you teach ag ...


Teach your children to respect others.
 
2013-03-18 06:20:48 AM  
I just heard something vaguely disturbing about this.  According to something that was just on a local news story, this girl was raped at "several" parties over the course of several days.  Not to even remotely say that the guys weren't wrong to do what they did, but .. this girl needs some help, too.
 
2013-03-18 06:20:58 AM  

Genevieve Marie: We don't teach young men that women are stupid, annoying, nags that only exist to be farked.


I disagree, Women are stupid rags that only exist to be farked. It's says so. In the Holy Bible. You do believe in the Bible...don't you?
 
2013-03-18 06:20:58 AM  

feckingmorons: penthesilea: [i470.photobucket.com image 500x333]

Shameful.

Contrast that with FoxNews who quotes the mother of the young woman who was criminally assaulted saying "[This crime]does not define who my daughter is. She will persevere, grow and move on."

That is exactly the story that needs to be told. Crime victims, and especially victims of sexual battery, are indeed victims. The criminals are not to be pitied for their poor choices, they are to be imprisoned.

Like Fox News or not (and I don't really watch any of the cable news) that is the right story, not how these two idiots ruined their lives by engaging in criminal sexual battery and other crimes. Screw them.


They may be on the right side of things, but Fox's story is just as much BS as the others. If it hadn't been two young black men, and was instead two young, promising white conservatives who had just gotten into Liberty Univ. I guarantee Fox would be playing an entirely different side.


Yes, Fox is racist.
 
2013-03-18 06:24:08 AM  
If something like this had happened to one of my sisters, the rapists would not have had a sentencing hearing to cry in.

Oh, there would have been a brief trial. One or both of my parents would have stood trial for shooting the motherfarking rapist scum to death. Their defense would have been "Yes, we did it. We were right to do it. Given the same circumstances, we'd do it again. Fark you if you don't like it."
 
2013-03-18 06:24:56 AM  

INeedAName: They may be on the right side of things, but Fox's story is just as much BS as the others. If it hadn't been two young black men, and was instead two young, promising white conservatives who had just gotten into Liberty Univ. I guarantee Fox would be playing an entirely different side.


Yes, Fox is racist.


The way they just have preconceptions of folks and judge them not by their actions but by the conceptions that they hold.... those bastards.
 
2013-03-18 06:25:18 AM  
As the father of a teenage girl I consider rape a capital crime.
 
2013-03-18 06:27:06 AM  

Genevieve Marie: Ooh. This is a great piece about exactly why this particular case demonstrates rape culture so well.

http://cognoscenti.wbur.org/2013/03/12/steubenville-sarah-sobieraj


Jesus christ.
 
2013-03-18 06:27:42 AM  

GopherGuts: If something like this had happened to one of my sisters, the rapists would not have had a sentencing hearing to cry in.

Oh, there would have been a brief trial. One or both of my parents would have stood trial for shooting the motherfarking rapist scum to death. Their defense would have been "Yes, we did it. We were right to do it. Given the same circumstances, we'd do it again. Fark you if you don't like it."


If it happened to me, I'd be seriously tempted to acquire a shiat-ton of weapons go all revenge-epic on the parties involved.
 
2013-03-18 06:29:09 AM  

kingoomieiii: cman: I think this is a foot in mouth moment.

If you read it it seems like she is disappointed that they threw their young lives away. She is not saying that the rapists are good people or that they don't deserve what they are about to expect, nor does she say anything bad about the victim or show the victim in any negative light.

TLDR; she could have said it better

The problem is that no one even gives a shiat about the victim. I don't care AT ALL what a rapist's future plans were, and I CERTAINLY don't think those plans should be part and parcel of the post-verdict discussion.

"The accused planned to buy a home in No Rape County, Utah- however, the county has numerous schools, and it is unlikely he will be able to find a home more than 500 yards from school property. It is currently unknown where he plans to move once he leaves prison." -five news stations

"Man, what's the guy's CURRENT house going to be worth when he gets out? #plansruined #farkfeminism" -twitter



Laws protect the identity of the victim.  The journalists aren't allowed to know all the details of her life or interview her etc.  Is someone like that even a real person to a journalist?
 
2013-03-18 06:30:14 AM  

Rhombic: As the father of a teenage girl I consider rape a capital crime.


As a guy with no kids and no sisters, I have to agree.
 
2013-03-18 06:33:02 AM  
Rape victims should be given a gun, and privacy with the perpetrators in handcuffs once the verdict of guilty is in.
 
2013-03-18 06:33:50 AM  

SilentStrider: Imdo take some solace. Even if CNN has their head up their ass, Anon doesn't. I hope they hound these rapists and make their post prison lives a living hell.


Please don't go through life thinkin Anon has some higher calling to do good for the sake of good.
 
2013-03-18 06:38:44 AM  

feckingmorons: That is brilliant. It is so simple, yet people think it is a joke.

Don't want to be labeled a rapist, don't be a rapist.


I just found it odd that none of these idiots actually believed that they'd raped her, because they didn't have to "Force themselves on her"...

Kinda hard to fight back when you're too drunk to even be awake, right? So that made it all right?

The kids were morons, and must have watched Varsity Blues a few too many times, thinking that it was acceptable behavior...
 
2013-03-18 06:39:50 AM  
In a sense - yes - these boys are victims. But we need to be very clear with ourselves as to what they are victims of.
They are not victims of a slutty girl, or an over zealous prosecutor.
They are victims of a society adrift, whose values have grown warped. A society that told them they could do whatever they wanted as long as they pertformed well on the all-important playing field. A society that didn't bother to even try to teach them anything about being men - as opposed to merely male apes.
A society that taught them that sex is a commodity, and just another form of power to be abused.
To his credit, in court one of the boy's fathers had the stones to tearfully admit that maybe if he had found the time to be there for his son, things might have ended differently.
And it is probably too late for them. Our record of rehabilitating teen sociopaths is very poor - I doubt that they have much more of a chance than the average gangbanger (of the OTHER kind) who shoots somebody and gets caught. But yeah - they are victims.

If we(and by "we" I mean us largely male Farkers) take anything away from this, it needs to be that we need to be fathers to our sons, and teach them to be men. We can't blame the women in their lives for our failure to do that.
Like the man said : "Raise you motherf**kin' kids".
 
2013-03-18 06:41:44 AM  

feckingmorons: penthesilea: [i470.photobucket.com image 500x333]

Shameful.

Contrast that with FoxNews who quotes the mother of the young woman who was criminally assaulted saying "[This crime]does not define who my daughter is. She will persevere, grow and move on."

That is exactly the story that needs to be told. Crime victims, and especially victims of sexual battery, are indeed victims. The criminals are not to be pitied for their poor choices, they are to be imprisoned.

Like Fox News or not (and I don't really watch any of the cable news) that is the right story, not how these two idiots ruined their lives by engaging in criminal sexual battery and other crimes. Screw them.


Something something, blind pig, truffle...
 
2013-03-18 06:42:36 AM  

jso2897: In a sense - yes - these boys are victims. But we need to be very clear with ourselves as to what they are victims of.
They are not victims of a slutty girl, or an over zealous prosecutor.
They are victims of a society adrift, whose values have grown warped. A society that told them they could do whatever they wanted as long as they pertformed well on the all-important playing field. A society that didn't bother to even try to teach them anything about being men - as opposed to merely male apes.
A society that taught them that sex is a commodity, and just another form of power to be abused.
To his credit, in court one of the boy's fathers had the stones to tearfully admit that maybe if he had found the time to be there for his son, things might have ended differently.
And it is probably too late for them. Our record of rehabilitating teen sociopaths is very poor - I doubt that they have much more of a chance than the average gangbanger (of the OTHER kind) who shoots somebody and gets caught. But yeah - they are victims.

If we(and by "we" I mean us largely male Farkers) take anything away from this, it needs to be that we need to be fathers to our sons, and teach them to be men. We can't blame the women in their lives for our failure to do that.
Like the man said : "Raise you motherf**kin' kids".


No. They are not victims. I understand the point you are trying to make, and I respect your opinion, but I must disagree. When life sets you on a course that puts you in this situation, you STILL must make a decision as to what you should do.
 
2013-03-18 06:44:01 AM  

kingoomieiii: Philbb: Just as an aside; would they have been talking about these boys ruining their lives if they were not football players? If they had been, perhaps, very good students and members of the school band?

From Gawker-

For readers interested in learning more about how not to be labeled as registered sex offenders, a good first step is not to rape unconscious women, no matter how good your grades are. Regardless of the strength of your GPA (weighted or unweighted), if you commit rape, there is a possibility you may someday be convicted of a sex crime. This is because of your decision to commit a sex crime instead of going for a walk, or reading a book by Cormac McCarthy. Your ability to perform calculus or play football is generally not taken into consideration in a court of law. Should you prefer to be known as "Good student and excellent football player Trent Mays" rather than "Convicted sex offender Trent Mays," try stressing the studying and tackling and giving the sex crimes a miss altogether.


Gawker nailed it.
 
2013-03-18 06:44:51 AM  

kingoomieiii: feckingmorons: I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.

This is literally the first thing you've said that I agree with.


Detention is not the worst thing that has or will happen to them.  That thought gives me deep  satisfaction.

The drunken loudmouth in the post-rape video commentary matriculated into Ohio State, but by January he was gone.  I never wanted to punch a kid so badly in my adult life.
 
2013-03-18 06:46:54 AM  

cman: kingoomieiii: The problem is that no one even gives a shiat about the victim. I don't care AT ALL what a rapist's future plans were, and I CERTAINLY don't think those plans should be part and parcel of the post-verdict discussion.

That is kind of a difficult subject for discussion on news stations.

Most times news organizations dont name the victims of sexual assault, especially when they are minors.

It is very likely that the people who are on news TV (such as pundits) have no basic information. What do we know about her? She's 16 and she went to a party and got drunk. Not much to go on.


We also know she got raped, which seems kind of important.
 
2013-03-18 06:47:43 AM  

basemetal: I'm sure these boys have been told this, if not, then their parents failed them, because anymore, you damn well better have a talk to your kid about legalities of such behavior.


I'm sorry but there is something about this line that bothers me. It's an important thing to teach, don't get me wrong, but shouldn't you first teach that it is highly immoral and unethical to rape? Shouldn't we teach that rape is bad because we, as human beings, are equals and no one should have power over another in such a way?
 
2013-03-18 06:48:04 AM  

Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/172024/americas-rape-problem-we-refuse -a dmit-there-one#


Yesterday's thread on this topic was appalling. So very many Farkers accused the victim of being responsible for her own rape. A few even suggested that she shouldn't have tempted the rapist.
 
2013-03-18 06:50:22 AM  

DataShade: Laws protect the identity of the victim. The journalists aren't allowed to know all the details of her life or interview her etc. Is someone like that even a real person to a journalist?


This. Obviously the anchors went overboard in their pity party, but in a lot of sex assault cases reporters are either legally or ethically prevented from reporting very much about the victims. Thats going to influence the stories that get writen.
 
2013-03-18 06:52:08 AM  
I find it hard to take journalists with stripper names seriously.

/Isn't it time to finally require a Federal license to possess drunk, passed out 16 year old girls?

//They got off light, should have been charged as adults
 
2013-03-18 06:54:48 AM  
Eh, they would have been fine if they hadn't you know, gang raped 16 year old.
 
2013-03-18 06:56:08 AM  

Bontesla: Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn:

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape rap culture isn't paying attention.


FTFY
 
2013-03-18 06:56:30 AM  

Genevieve Marie: violentsalvation: Yup, I'm a troll, OKAY. I was trying to sidestep you, guess that didn't work. Sorry if you think our culture inherently condones rape. But there are plenty of us who want to help and change things without trodding on a pile of neofeministic bullshiat like "rape culture".

sigh

I'm going to bed. Take care.

I should have probably phrased that differently and used the verb instead of the noun, but what you were doing is generally referred to as concern trolling. It's not the same thing as trolling in general- it's professing to be concerned about an issue, but then objecting to how others address that issue without offering a better alternative or a reasoned criticism.

And yes, our culture inherently condones rape. That's the entire issue here. That's what this case was all about. You should be able to look at what happened here and at least acknowledge that these young men were surrounded by adults who were more interested in preserving the status quo than they were in doing what was right. That none of them had been taught basic ideas about sexual consent.

This is something  feminists have been discussing for years and years and years- but generally, when we make that point, it gets laughed off as "neofeministic bullshiat" and people deny that it exists. And then when a case pops up that shows that we've got a point, people react by criticizing how we make that point.

It's a bit exhausting. If you're actually interested in helping to change that cultural attitude, maybe you should stop writing off other people's opinions just because they're not phrased in a way that's designed to make you comfortable.


So I'm curious, how does a male like myself who grew up with a father that didn't constantly tell me not to rape women make well into adult hood without raping anyone? Am I a statistical anomaly?

I know the numbers, what's it like 1/3 or 1/6 women will be the victim of sexual assault? What I'd like to see is the % o men who will commit a sexual assault. I think that number is far lower. I think women should scream it from the mountain tips I they have been victimized, but I also think they are their own worst enemies when they falsely accuse. And yes, I realize the number if false accusations is far lower and almost minuscule in comparison to the unreported cases.
 
2013-03-18 06:56:44 AM  

ekdikeo4: I just heard something vaguely disturbing about this.  According to something that was just on a local news story, this girl was raped at "several" parties over the course of several days.  Not to even remotely say that the guys weren't wrong to do what they did, but .. this girl needs some help, too.


There were several parties that spanned a single night. She was no longer in control of herself (couldn't walk or talk) by the second party and was unconscious by the third (two players were dragging her in and out).

There's some speculation that date rapes drugs were used but there girl learned about her own violation from twitter so there was very little chemical evidence left to collect via a drug test.

The boys belonged to you Rape Squad. A name they gave themselves before that night.

It's quite likely that they've raped before. This girl was an outsider and stepped forward.
 
2013-03-18 06:57:47 AM  
This may come as a shock but discussing the effects that the sex offenders registry have on society and helping the victims are not mutually exclusive. You can do both

God forbid we discuss the way the registry creates more problems then it solves. It's impossible now days to have a rational discussion about sex crimes
 
2013-03-18 06:58:54 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: The drunken loudmouth in the post-rape video commentary matriculated into Ohio State, but by January he was gone.  I never wanted to punch a kid so badly in my adult life.


As an aside:

In the linked video up above, I could clearly see that a kid was in an Onio State shirt (I didnt watch the video). I have never been more ashamed to be an Ohio State fan than I am right now.
 
2013-03-18 06:59:13 AM  

WaitWhatWhy: cman: kingoomieiii: The problem is that no one even gives a shiat about the victim. I don't care AT ALL what a rapist's future plans were, and I CERTAINLY don't think those plans should be part and parcel of the post-verdict discussion.

That is kind of a difficult subject for discussion on news stations.

Most times news organizations dont name the victims of sexual assault, especially when they are minors.

It is very likely that the people who are on news TV (such as pundits) have no basic information. What do we know about her? She's 16 and she went to a party and got drunk. Not much to go on.

We also know she got raped, which seems kind of important.


This should get you sponsored.
Remind me later to do so.
 
2013-03-18 07:00:53 AM  
Heh! Poppy Harlow and Candy Crowley already have new additions to their Wikipedia pages.
 
2013-03-18 07:01:53 AM  

feckingmorons: I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.


Y'all aren't very good at math are you?

How much money will these two cost us, the taxpayers, over the course of years? How many calories will be burned dealing with this time and time again.

A pair of Pinking Shears on the other hand... $12.99 at Walmart.
 
2013-03-18 07:03:03 AM  

feckingmorons: cman: I think this is a foot in mouth moment.

If you read it it seems like she is disappointed that they threw their young lives away. She is not saying that the rapists are good people or that they don't deserve what they are about to expect, nor does she say anything bad about the victim or show the victim in any negative light.

TLDR; she could have said it better

Why be an apologist for these 'journalists'? They insist on giving us opinion rather than news. Journalism is dead in this country, we have hand wringing actors who bring us snippets of news cloaked in opinion and maudlin sentimentality.



files.list.co.uk
THIS X 1,000
 
2013-03-18 07:03:24 AM  
The number of rapes that occur from habitual offenders (previously unreported is staggering, upwards of 90%.  Of course this means that 9 out of 10 rapes can be blamed on the rapist's last victim.  (statistics are a biatch)

Girls, here are some tips:

1. Only YOU can stop your own rape
2. REPORT IMMEDIATELY. You can stop the next rape.
3. You will know the rapist
4. You will trust the rapist
5. No one other than you cares about you. Please take care of yourselves.
 
2013-03-18 07:04:35 AM  
Truly the terrorists have won.

Crowley knows her football. She was a defensive back for Obama during the debates.

 Candy's game winning block helped Barry get down field to score.

// inside game.
 
2013-03-18 07:04:59 AM  
The only thing these two little assholes were remorseful for is posting it online and getting caught...

They got off easy, legally, though, and I hope where ever they go for they rest of their lives, someone will be there to let these rapists' coworkers and friends know what they did.
 
2013-03-18 07:08:14 AM  
Relevant

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46bBWBG9r2o

/not a rickroll I swear
 
2013-03-18 07:08:50 AM  
This was a calculated pandering to mommy viewers who have good boys whose girlfriends are tramps.  Big demographic.
 
2013-03-18 07:11:10 AM  

feckingmorons: I don't really watch any of the cable news stations (or broadcast news stations in the US for that matter) save the local cable one. Not that you can see this because you ignore opinions that are not in lockstep with yours.


It's sad that I have to go abroad to get good news channels. When I traveled to Germany and India the BBC was amazing. They actually did reporting. On the world. And I don't think I heard a single word about the Kardashians.
 
2013-03-18 07:11:43 AM  

Relatively Obscure: Also, who the hell is surprised when CNN sucks anymore?


The half-dozen or so people who still watch CNN?

I can remember being a hormone-filled teenager and there were dumb girls around who would get shiatfaced drunk at parties but the idea of raping them never came up so blaming this on youth is stupid. In fact the attitude was usually just the opposite in that basically everyone stayed away as it felt like doing anything with them in that state was opening a door to a world of trouble. These two thought they were above the rules because of their status which is why they went ahead and did what they did.
 
2013-03-18 07:12:17 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: This was a calculated pandering to mommy viewers who have good boys whose girlfriends are tramps.  Big demographic.


It's sad how likely this explanation is.
 
2013-03-18 07:14:53 AM  
I hope their dicks shrivel  up and fall off.  Same goes for the crybaby 'journalists'.


keylock71: The only thing these two little assholes were remorseful for is posting it online and getting caught...

They got off easy, legally, though, and I hope where ever they go for they rest of their lives, someone will be there to let these rapists' coworkers and friends know what they did.



I would hope so, but they are football stars, so memories in that town will prove to be very, very short. Football stars (and a lot of athletes    in general) get passes for their misdeeds.
 
2013-03-18 07:16:55 AM  

Jamieboy: I hope their dicks shrivel  up and fall off.


Hope in one hand, $12.99 in the other, see which gets pinking shears first.
 
2013-03-18 07:17:24 AM  
So those sick people feel sorry for the PERPS rather than the victim?  Really??!!  I think they may deserve more jail time than they've been given.  And to be clear, the arrogant, self-entitled little punks brought it upon themselves.  Also, after they get out of jail, I expect them to give every female they encounter for the rest of their sorry lives the utmost respect in every situation, or else hopefully a bunch of bigger guys beats the crap out of them.  Would also hope every young female they encounter refuses to have anything with their disgusting selves.

/they should be shunned for the rest of their lives
 
2013-03-18 07:17:27 AM  

doglover: Kids today! Back in my day, trolling used to mean something.


Here let me try:

It is entirely unfair to charge these two with rape. They were equally drunk at the time of fornication.  A girl does not go into a bedroom with two young men if she doesn't want it. After all, these two were sports stars, and would result in quite a lot of social "cred" with her friends. She most likely just got carried away, and didn't want to be considered a slut. These two boys are victims not of their actions, but of her regret.

/troll off
 
2013-03-18 07:19:02 AM  
This is a terrible story and everything, but my question is this:
How does someone that fat and bland get a hosting job?

I don't expect everyone to be on the Fox News level, but I'm really surprised someone like that has a gig.
 
2013-03-18 07:19:22 AM  
man thats just wow.
thats like saying (yes i will go there) Hitlers life was ruined by the jews, Soviets, America, and/or UK and being in tears feeling sorry for him.
 
2013-03-18 07:21:03 AM  

borg: feckingmorons: I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.

Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives?  Thats what will ruin their lives and any chance of decent employment.


Indeed, they do.  The judge said he will decide what level to assign them after they finish their sentences and treatment.

Scott Tenorman's tears did not taste so good to Cartman as Ma'lik Richmond's do to me.  Took three Handi-wipes to clean the saliva off my screen.  But his remorse seemed sincere.

Trent May, OTOH, is going to need a lot of intensive treatment.  He apologized only for taking and distributing pictures.  He's still in denial, despite his friends testifying that they saw him finger-rape the girl.
 
2013-03-18 07:22:01 AM  
America loves football, and CNN loves ratings.
 
2013-03-18 07:22:25 AM  

God-is-a-Taco: This is a terrible story and everything, but my question is this:
How does someone that fat and bland get a hosting job?

I don't expect everyone to be on the Fox News level, but I'm really surprised someone like that has a gig.


Maybe she got hired for her talents and skills and not her looks... BWAHAHAHAH I'm sorry I can't do this
 
2013-03-18 07:23:22 AM  

feckingmorons: They insist on giving us opinion rather than news.


As if this is not the normal case for journalism throughout its history. Go back and read the papers run by people like Benjamin Franklin or Horace Greely and tell me that they were insisting on this mythical "no opinion" journalism that you are hallucinating, because it has  never existed as a general rule, ever.
 
2013-03-18 07:24:22 AM  

Arcturus72: feckingmorons: That is brilliant. It is so simple, yet people think it is a joke.

Don't want to be labeled a rapist, don't be a rapist.

I just found it odd that none of these idiots actually believed that they'd raped her, because they didn't have to "Force themselves on her"...

Kinda hard to fight back when you're too drunk to even be awake, right? So that made it all right?

The kids were morons, and must have watched Varsity Blues a few too many times, thinking that it was acceptable behavior...


You'd be shocked at the amount of cognitive dissonance that goes on in the head of a rapist. My rapist didn't think he raped me, even though I said no and tried to push him off (he was a good 100 lbs heavier and 5 inches taller than me, so it did jack all, but I did the best I could to try and get him off of me) because we were dating so he thought he "deserved it" and "he just couldn't help himself" (his words). I was the same age as the victim in this case and didn't tell anyone or talk about it at all for six years because I was a "good girl" and a virgin when it happened, and everyone knows that only slutty "bad girls" get raped, amirite?
 
2013-03-18 07:24:35 AM  
Remember how upset they were about the Duke lacrosse team.
 
2013-03-18 07:24:50 AM  

hubiestubert: These young men are damn lucky to have gotten off this easy, and not in someplace, like say, Texas, where a judge might have looked askance if the young men happened to have had horrible accidents like falling onto a couple of baseball bats several dozen times, or drowned themselves in their own toilets...


I live in Texas next to Williamson County, and those would have been some of the lighter sentences.
 
2013-03-18 07:24:54 AM  

feckingmorons: Crime victims, and especially victims of sexual battery, are indeed victims.


Indeed. I wish we could end this "survivor" bullshiat, because using the term "survivor" makes it sound as if there are non-survivors and loads the victim with the responsibility for surviving. "Victim" is a simple statement of fact which stresses the fact that a crime took place.

One survives (or not) hurricanes, earthquakes, car crashes and cancer.

One is a victim of murderers, rapists, muggers and 419 scammers.
 
2013-03-18 07:25:29 AM  
According to the commercials the only people that watch CNN are old farks that can't get it up, crap themselves and need scooters.  So maybe their BS fits the demographic?
 
2013-03-18 07:25:34 AM  

kingoomieiii: Also, I liked all the people talking about how this is a "cautionary tale" about using social media. In the old days, athletes beat rape charges by hiding evidence, not posting it online!


This. These farker*s deserve everything they get and social media is the reason they will. Glad they were incredibly dumb as well as evil.
 
2013-03-18 07:25:41 AM  
Now go get the rest of them.  Including the cops and prosecutor that tried to impede justice.
 
2013-03-18 07:25:42 AM  

Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/172024/americas-rape-problem-we-refuse -a dmit-there-one#


Gen, I am so glad to see you!  The earlier Steubenville thread was dismal without you.

I cordially disagree with you.  We do not live in a rape culture.  A rape culture lives among us.
 
2013-03-18 07:26:18 AM  
It would be great if we all could come together to point out for all the world to see that these two guys are what a pair of LOSERS looks like.  Were I a parent, I'd encourage my children to have nothing at all to do with known losers; avoid them at all costs because being around them tarnishes your image of respectability!
 
2013-03-18 07:27:11 AM  

cman: Motherfarker I am always biatching about the media being News Entertainment (coined in the spirit of Vince McMahon's Sports Entertainment) instead of real news.


I'm totally stealing this phrase.
 
2013-03-18 07:28:04 AM  

Rhombic: As the father of a teenage girl I consider rape a capital crime.


Mine are not teens... Yet. Regardless, I concur.
 
2013-03-18 07:29:39 AM  

Ukab the Great: You do believe in the Bible...don't you?


Believe in it? I've actually seen one before!

borg: Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives? Thats what will ruin their lives and any chance of decent employment.


i.imgur.com
 
2013-03-18 07:30:11 AM  

breadprincess: I was the same age as the victim in this case and didn't tell anyone or talk about it at all for six years because I was a "good girl" and a virgin when it happened, and everyone knows that only slutty "bad girls" get raped, amirite?


You ever wonder how many of his other girlfriends got to go through what you did because you said nothing?
 
2013-03-18 07:30:31 AM  

Waxing_Chewbacca: Rhombic: As the father of a teenage girl I consider rape a capital crime.

Mine are not teens... Yet. Regardless, I concur.


Rape and murder are two things that cannot be tolerated in a functional society.

The vikings knew it, although thralls weren't people to them.
 
2013-03-18 07:30:42 AM  

Bontesla: ekdikeo4: I just heard something vaguely disturbing about this.  According to something that was just on a local news story, this girl was raped at "several" parties over the course of several days.  Not to even remotely say that the guys weren't wrong to do what they did, but .. this girl needs some help, too.

There were several parties that spanned a single night. She was no longer in control of herself (couldn't walk or talk) by the second party and was unconscious by the third (two players were dragging her in and out).

There's some speculation that date rapes drugs were used but there girl learned about her own violation from twitter so there was very little chemical evidence left to collect via a drug test.

The boys belonged to you Rape Squad. A name they gave themselves before that night.

It's quite likely that they've raped before. This girl was an outsider and stepped forward.


"Rape squad"?! I hope they find this as amusing when they themselves are being raped.
 
2013-03-18 07:31:51 AM  
 
2013-03-18 07:32:15 AM  

Yogimus: breadprincess: I was the same age as the victim in this case and didn't tell anyone or talk about it at all for six years because I was a "good girl" and a virgin when it happened, and everyone knows that only slutty "bad girls" get raped, amirite?

You ever wonder how many of his other girlfriends got to go through what you did because you said nothing?


Do you know how difficult it is to actually prove unwanted sexual contact when there's still evidence of wanted sexual contact?
 
2013-03-18 07:33:21 AM  

Bontesla: Do you know how difficult it is to actually prove unwanted sexual contact when there's still evidence of wanted sexual contact?


Sure do. It is even harder when there is no history.
 
2013-03-18 07:38:30 AM  
violentsalvation:

I realized I had to do a bunch of ironing for the coming week, so I'm still up, and just typing this I'm remembering I need to fill up the dog water pails. I'll do what I can, GM. I'm trying to teach kids to pitch for my church's youth baseball team, they're young adults really. I will see to it I get a "respect the no" speech in.

That paragraph packs more incongruities than I've seen in the past year. :-)
 
2013-03-18 07:38:44 AM  

Yogimus: Bontesla: Do you know how difficult it is to actually prove unwanted sexual contact when there's still evidence of wanted sexual contact?

Sure do. It is even harder when there is no history.


Which is largely inadmissible in court without prior conviction.
 
2013-03-18 07:40:43 AM  
Bontesla:

You are totally right. Much better to suck it up and move on.
 
2013-03-18 07:41:35 AM  

ekdikeo4: I just heard something vaguely disturbing about this.  According to something that was just on a local news story, this girl was raped at "several" parties over the course of several days.  Not to even remotely say that the guys weren't wrong to do what they did, but .. this girl needs some help, too.


Every sexual encounter she's ever had is now a rape, according to newsies.
 
2013-03-18 07:42:38 AM  

Bontesla: Yogimus: Bontesla: Do you know how difficult it is to actually prove unwanted sexual contact when there's still evidence of wanted sexual contact?

Sure do. It is even harder when there is no history.

Which is largely inadmissible in court without prior conviction.



Either report or do not, but it's not a crime until it's reported. Police don't have psychics like Minority Report. If you want change in the world, you have to be that change.
 
2013-03-18 07:42:49 AM  
Approves of this coverage.....

jaydeanhcr.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-03-18 07:43:48 AM  
CNN, you say?

whenfallsthecoliseum.com

I'm shocked.
 
2013-03-18 07:44:24 AM  

jaybeezey: So I'm curious, how does a male like myself who grew up with a father that didn't constantly tell me not to rape women make well into adult hood without raping anyone? Am I a statistical anomaly?


No, your my son's soul mate.  He never saw me treat a woman badly.  He never saw me spit on the sidewalk.  He never did either.
 
2013-03-18 07:44:35 AM  

RobSeace: Ukab the Great: You do believe in the Bible...don't you?

Believe in it? I've actually seen one before!

borg: Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives? Thats what will ruin their lives and any chance of decent employment.

[i.imgur.com image 640x425]


I'm not saying they shouldn't have to live with consequences of a heinous action for the rest of their lives, but if we make it impossible for criminals to function as law-abiding citizens once they are inevitably released, then we've gone from punishing criminals to actively manufacturing habitual offenders.

Those arguing for execution aren't helping either; considering the widespread evidence of wrongful convictions, implementing more frequent executions would only be compounding tragedy.
 
2013-03-18 07:45:38 AM  
Not surprised this was on CNN. Deviants hate to see one of their own get in trouble
 
2013-03-18 07:46:37 AM  

bmihura: hubiestubert: These young men are damn lucky to have gotten off this easy, and not in someplace, like say, Texas, where a judge might have looked askance if the young men happened to have had horrible accidents like falling onto a couple of baseball bats several dozen times, or drowned themselves in their own toilets...

I live in Texas next to Williamson County, and those would have been some of the lighter sentences.


How would Texas be less lenient against football stars?
The school would have just bought the victim a new house or something.
 
2013-03-18 07:47:22 AM  
Subby subtly insinuates that the victim being 16 makes the crime more heinous, but that the perpetrators being 16/17 doesn't change anything
 
2013-03-18 07:49:33 AM  

Waxing_Chewbacca: kingoomieiii: Also, I liked all the people talking about how this is a "cautionary tale" about using social media. In the old days, athletes beat rape charges by hiding evidence, not posting it online!

This. These farker*s deserve everything they get and social media is the reason they will. Glad they were incredibly dumb as well as evil.


No, Anonymous and that one woman that posted some info as well are.
Hitting "like" didn't stop Kony and it didn't stop this.
 
2013-03-18 07:50:11 AM  

Misch: There's plenty of people to white knight the boys on twitter.


Wow...
 
2013-03-18 07:52:09 AM  

God-is-a-Taco: Waxing_Chewbacca: kingoomieiii: Also, I liked all the people talking about how this is a "cautionary tale" about using social media. In the old days, athletes beat rape charges by hiding evidence, not posting it online!

This. These farker*s deserve everything they get and social media is the reason they will. Glad they were incredibly dumb as well as evil.

No, Anonymous and that one woman that posted some info as well are.
Hitting "like" didn't stop Kony and it didn't stop this.


It played a part but point taken. The idea that they should have been more careful with posting just makes me sick however. farken evil
 
2013-03-18 07:53:02 AM  

Aar1012: BarkingUnicorn: The drunken loudmouth in the post-rape video commentary matriculated into Ohio State, but by January he was gone.  I never wanted to punch a kid so badly in my adult life.

As an aside:

In the linked video up above, I could clearly see that a kid was in an Onio State shirt (I didnt watch the video). I have never been more ashamed to be an Ohio State fan than I am right now.


That would be the guy tugging his pecker and making all the "jokes" about the dead girl.
I'm guessing he has a lifetime of falling down to do.
 
2013-03-18 07:53:53 AM  
Coming out great guns against the rapists might mean saying that rape is wrong. Saying that something is wrong isn't culturally sensitive enough. WON'T ANYBODY THINK OF THE POOR BROS??????? If we start convicting Bros for just doing what comes naturally to a Bro, where will it end!?!?!?!?!? CNN is just standing up for Bro liberation.
 
2013-03-18 07:54:05 AM  
Lives ruined? Possibly, yes. Only themselves to blame? Definitely yes.
 
2013-03-18 07:54:13 AM  
Cry me a farkin' river, boys.
 
2013-03-18 07:55:03 AM  

rynthetyn: for the most part the student body acted like I was some sort of over-sensitive whiner.


Unless you stood up and equally complained about the murder and human chattel elements, you were an over-sensitive whiner.

Rape is no laughing manner but killing two hundred people and bringing back body parts as trophies is comedy gold. They're just *men*, right? That whole article was repulsive but you singled yourself out by laser-focusing on a single aspect.
 
2013-03-18 07:56:52 AM  

badhatharry: Remember how upset they were about the Duke lacrosse team.


Those were white kids, so they obviously deserved to be blamed for a rape that never actually occurred.

/welcome to the age of "fake but accurate"
//it's what the people demanded, so it's what the people get
 
2013-03-18 07:58:43 AM  

Yogimus: jso2897: In a sense - yes - these boys are victims. But we need to be very clear with ourselves as to what they are victims of.
They are not victims of a slutty girl, or an over zealous prosecutor.
They are victims of a society adrift, whose values have grown warped. A society that told them they could do whatever they wanted as long as they pertformed well on the all-important playing field. A society that didn't bother to even try to teach them anything about being men - as opposed to merely male apes.
A society that taught them that sex is a commodity, and just another form of power to be abused.
To his credit, in court one of the boy's fathers had the stones to tearfully admit that maybe if he had found the time to be there for his son, things might have ended differently.
And it is probably too late for them. Our record of rehabilitating teen sociopaths is very poor - I doubt that they have much more of a chance than the average gangbanger (of the OTHER kind) who shoots somebody and gets caught. But yeah - they are victims.

If we(and by "we" I mean us largely male Farkers) take anything away from this, it needs to be that we need to be fathers to our sons, and teach them to be men. We can't blame the women in their lives for our failure to do that.
Like the man said : "Raise you motherf**kin' kids".

No. They are not victims. I understand the point you are trying to make, and I respect your opinion, but I must disagree. When life sets you on a course that puts you in this situation, you STILL must make a decision as to what you should do.


Let's not have a semantic argument - perhaps I could have put the word "victim" in quotes? We both know what I am saying, and we both know that I am not arguing that they are in any way absolved of responsibility for their own actions. The mistreatment of humans by other humans is a chain of events - a chain that needs to be broken, if you want it to stop.
 
2013-03-18 08:00:05 AM  

basemetal: Meh, people can talk to the points of the victim not putting themselves in compromising situations, but the fact remains that you don't take sexual advantage of people who are not able to defend or consent for themselves.  I'm sure these boys have been told this, if not, then their parents failed them, because anymore, you damn well better have a talk to your kid about legalities of such behavior.

/sad for both sides
//but it's hard to garner any sympathy for the boys


I know guys my age who think it is perfectly fine to ply a woman with alcohol until she's falling-down drunk before putting the ole moves on her. I try to point out the situation that can put them into when she sobers up, but it's such a time-honored way to get laid that my objections don't find much traction with that crowd. They see it as "seduction" when she's drunk enough to be willing.

With attitudes like that, is it any wonder teens get the idea that this is a perfectly fair tactic?
 
2013-03-18 08:00:12 AM  

Philbb: Just as an aside; would they have been talking about these boys ruining their lives if they were not football players? If they had been, perhaps, very good students and members of the school band?

The lack of interest in the victim doesn't surprise me at all. I've known that since the beginning of the Penn State scandal when so people were all broke up over losing a coach and had no sympathy for the alleged victims.


Football is big business. Therefore, members of the football community have acted with impunity in a culture of rape for many, many moons.
Which is why I compare Football culture to Pakistani Culture. Both groups have the same mindset. Our cause is the greater cause and our people (male) can do no wrong. Women cannot play. But they can be used as chattel.
Gooooooooooooooo Team!
 
2013-03-18 08:00:14 AM  

keylock71: Misch: There's plenty of people to white knight the boys on twitter.

Wow...


Yeah, i'm feeling pretty hatey after reading that.
 
2013-03-18 08:00:47 AM  

Yogimus: Bontesla:

You are totally right. Much better to suck it up and move on.


Which isn't anything remotely close to what I said.

We can't demand rape victims come forward if we refuse to protect them. If we blame them for tempting the rapists. If show more sympathize with their attackers than we show with the victims.

We, as a society, are responsible for this.
 
2013-03-18 08:01:15 AM  

SilentStrider: Imdo take some solace. Even if CNN has their head up their ass, Anon doesn't. I hope they hound these rapists and make their post prison lives a living hell.


You really think Anonymous will be around in 5 to 8 years?
 
2013-03-18 08:01:38 AM  

BolloxReader: With attitudes like that, is it any wonder teens get the idea that this is a perfectly fair tactic?


Insert Pic of Herb Tarlick explaining how to seduce a woman to Johnny Fever and Venus Flytrap.

/You gettem drunk.
 
2013-03-18 08:02:01 AM  
Bohoo they're registered sex offenders.
At least they deserve to be on that list. I can't say I care a smidgy little stain about it after finding out you can get on it if you take a drunken leak behind a bush at midnight.
"I can't live closer than 500 yards to a school because I had one beer when I was 22 and the closest WC was five hundred meters away through a park." Does sound kinda stupid
/not on the list, just thinks its meaningless
//Can't actually be on the list. Not american citizen.
 
2013-03-18 08:02:19 AM  

Bontesla: Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/172024/americas-rape-problem-we-refuse -a dmit-there-one#

Yesterday's thread on this topic was appalling. So very many Farkers accused the victim of being responsible for her own rape. A few even suggested that she shouldn't have tempted the rapist.


You are delusional or disingenuous; perhaps both by turns.

Some people said she is responsible for NOT getting raped.  Many said she's not responsible at all, an infantalizing and dangerous fiction.
 
2013-03-18 08:02:23 AM  
cman's "news entertainment" neologism is perfect for this situation. Now where's a picture of a TimeWarner executive asking, "Are you not sports entertained?"

1. The news media sucks in this country.
2. I have to read other country's news and Twitter to get good news about my own country.
3. Rape culture is a thing, and I'm not sorry the term makes people uncomfortable.
4. Rape being condoned in this country should make you uncomfortable.
5. Athlete worship in this country is out of hand too.
 
2013-03-18 08:03:28 AM  

basemetal: Meh, people can talk to the points of the victim not putting themselves in compromising situations, but the fact remains that you don't take sexual advantage of people who are not able to defend or consent for themselves.  I'm sure these boys have been told this, if not, then their parents failed them, because anymore, you damn well better have a talk to your kid about legalities of such behavior.

/sad for both sides
//but it's hard to garner any sympathy for the boys


I've never had this talk with my boys. They just know it's wrong. Then again, they're not football players. Maybe it's something boys in the super hero, super macho world, need to be told.
 
2013-03-18 08:05:16 AM  

Bontesla: We can't demand rape victims come forward if we refuse to protect them. If we blame them for tempting the rapists. If show more sympathize with their attackers than we show with the victims.


I am not demanding it. I am merely saying that if you let it go, then you condemn the next victim down the line. One rapist does not rape ONE victim. This event is not something that is shared just between the two people involved.  The rapist will keep going until stopped, either by bullet, or by the courts.

Now if you really want a mindfark, just think of all the people in that chain that came BEFORE you.
 
2013-03-18 08:07:56 AM  

doglover: Bontesla: Yogimus: Bontesla: Do you know how difficult it is to actually prove unwanted sexual contact when there's still evidence of wanted sexual contact?

Sure do. It is even harder when there is no history.

Which is largely inadmissible in court without prior conviction.


Either report or do not, but it's not a crime until it's reported. Police don't have psychics like Minority Report. If you want change in the world, you have to be that change.


We're responsible for the reason why rape victims largely don't come forward. Perhaps not you or I - but certainly our society. We punish the victims. We collectively ask what they could have done to be responsible for their own rapes.

This particular girl was bullied and threatened after she cameras forward. While that night was unfolding - people at the party rationalized that she deserves to be raped because she was drunk.

What incentive are we giving rape victims to come forward? But we should totally demand that all victims step forward to be treated like whores because they were victims of rape.
 
2013-03-18 08:08:03 AM  

deanis: keylock71: Misch: There's plenty of people to white knight the boys on twitter.

Wow...

Yeah, i'm feeling pretty hatey after reading that.


It's pretty farking disgusting...
 
2013-03-18 08:08:03 AM  

jso2897: Yogimus: stuffstuffstuff


Have you read about Halden prison? Worth a look if you have ten minutes to spare.
 
2013-03-18 08:08:08 AM  
They should have cut their nuts off.
img203.imageshack.us
 
2013-03-18 08:11:23 AM  
"What's the lasting effect though on two young men being found guilty juvenile court of rape essentially?"

Spend thee a fortnight in a Turkish prison.  That's Juvenile Hall.  At least it was last time I checked.  Someone yesterday was pointing out that it was more like Club Med these days but I doubt it.
So their lasting effect will be that if they make a mistake and sit on a Maglight, it's gone baby - gone.
 
2013-03-18 08:11:41 AM  
penthesilea: i470.photobucket.com]

Shameful.


sure is, boo hoo to the rapist
 
2013-03-18 08:15:04 AM  

Alex Broughton Butt Chugger: SilentStrider: Imdo take some solace. Even if CNN has their head up their ass, Anon doesn't. I hope they hound these rapists and make their post prison lives a living hell.

You really think Anonymous will be around in 5 to 8 years?


People said the same about the Rolling Stones in the late '60s.
 
2013-03-18 08:16:20 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-03-18 08:16:54 AM  

Wolf_Blitzer: I'm not saying they shouldn't have to live with consequences of a heinous action for the rest of their lives, but if we make it impossible for criminals to function as law-abiding citizens once they are inevitably released, then we've gone from punishing criminals to actively manufacturing habitual offenders.


In many cases, I object to the stupid overuse of the sex offender registry and its permanently ostricizing nature... Someone taking a piss outside should not be placed on it... Nor should 18 year olds who were having fully consentual, but technically illegal, sex with their 17 year old girlfriend... But, assholes like this? They definitely belong on it! Actual rapists and child molesters should be the sole inhabitants of the registry... And, yes, they should be shunned by all of polite society... I think they should have to wear a special badge or something, so everyone will immediately know what they did everywhere they go...

But, it should be time limited, as well... After a few years of such universal ostricizing, wipe the slate clean, and let them try to reintegrate into society, somewhere where no one knows them... But, if they ever reoffend, they go on the list permanently... In fact, I'd say they should just stay locked up permanently in that case...
 
2013-03-18 08:17:04 AM  

wickedragon: jso2897: Yogimus: stuffstuffstuff

Have you read about Halden prison? Worth a look if you have ten minutes to spare.


I don't have any time to spare on "reading assignments" - if you've something to say, and citation to support it, I'll be happy to listen.
 
2013-03-18 08:18:05 AM  
Those 2 kids should be hanged.
 
2013-03-18 08:19:06 AM  

basemetal: Meh, people can talk to the points of the victim not putting themselves in compromising situations, but the fact remains that you don't take sexual advantage of people who are not able to defend or consent for themselves.  I'm sure these boys have been told this, if not, then their parents failed them, because anymore, you damn well better have a talk to your kid about legalities of such behavior.

/sad for both sides
//but it's hard to garner any sympathy for the boys


They were jocks and more specifically football players.  They had been raised their entire lives to believe that the rules did not apply to them.

/fark em
 
2013-03-18 08:20:24 AM  

Bontesla: We're responsible for the reason why rape victims largely don't come forward. Perhaps not you or I - but certainly our society. We punish the victims. We collectively ask what they could have done to be responsible for their own rapes.


Why is rape the only crime that's a big deal in that department?  Suppose somebody breaks into your house and steals all your stuff, so you mosey on down to the police station to file a report.  Cop starts asking tough questions like "did you leave the door unlocked?", "do you have a dog?", "oh, you forgot to set your alarm system that day?"  Victim blaming, I say!  Next time that victim gets robbed, they'll be less likely to report it!

/ well not really, but only because there's not people like you going around convincing robbery victims that they should let their robbers go free instead of cooperating with the police.
 
2013-03-18 08:21:00 AM  

Bontesla: We, as a society, are responsible for this.


I like what you're saying but we can't blame everyone.  People don't know the basics, like what cops will do if a woman was abused.  Victims don't know procedure, and could get bad information on what to do since it is never taught in schools.  I would start there with blame.  I had to go to several sexual assault classes during schoold because my demographic was the rapiest apparently.  They are insightful on the law and what victims/criminals go through, not to mention getting an entire group of people to shoot off any question they can think of.  One class every month during health class for one year would be a vast improvement.

/but no, we have to teach abstinence during that time
//people have to learn how to not have sex?
 
2013-03-18 08:21:09 AM  

Bontesla: Yogimus: Bontesla:

You are totally right. Much better to suck it up and move on.

Which isn't anything remotely close to what I said.

We can't demand rape victims come forward if we refuse to protect them. If we blame them for tempting the rapists. If show more sympathize with their attackers than we show with the victims.

We, as a society, are responsible for this.


THIS. Look at what has been said about this poor girl. Seeing what women have to put up with when they accuse, I'm shocked any guy has the balls to say women are to blame if they don't come forward. There's tons of proof in this case, and they barely got a slap on the wrist. And she is STILL treated like she deserved it and the poor young men are ruined for life.

/I couldn't. I was 16. I didn't know him. And I was still terrified to come forward because of crap like this.
//not coming back to this thread because I'm not putting myself through all the "more girls were raped because of you" bull.
///girl from this story said she had one drink. It was likely spiked but there was no proof (boo puns) for trial. But go ahead, call her a drunk whore. Because if she deserved it, then it can't happen to you and yours, right?
 
2013-03-18 08:24:16 AM  
"rape culture"
Anyone who even uses this term should just stick to writing essays for their women's studies course.
 
2013-03-18 08:26:20 AM  

jso2897: wickedragon: jso2897: Yogimus: stuffstuffstuff

Have you read about Halden prison? Worth a look if you have ten minutes to spare.

I don't have any time to spare on "reading assignments" - if you've something to say, and citation to support it, I'll be happy to listen.


It's a prison that treats the inmates as people, no matter what they've done to deserve prison time. They get a modicrum of freedom, education and worthwhile jobs all the while being given trust and respect from the prison staff.
Even though they take in murderes and rapists violence is unheard of inside the prison walls and recidivism rates seems very low (although the prison is to new to give any sort of accurate reading of such yet). Inmates leave the prison as better people than they were when they went in. Seems like a good thing.
 
2013-03-18 08:26:34 AM  

serial_crusher: Bontesla: We're responsible for the reason why rape victims largely don't come forward. Perhaps not you or I - but certainly our society. We punish the victims. We collectively ask what they could have done to be responsible for their own rapes.

Why is rape the only crime that's a big deal in that department?  Suppose somebody breaks into your house and steals all your stuff, so you mosey on down to the police station to file a report.  Cop starts asking tough questions like "did you leave the door unlocked?", "do you have a dog?", "oh, you forgot to set your alarm system that day?"  Victim blaming, I say!  Next time that victim gets robbed, they'll be less likely to report it!

/ well not really, but only because there's not people like you going around convincing robbery victims that they should let their robbers go free instead of cooperating with the police.


You think the robbery example is totally ridiculous, but in fact that is cultural, too.

I worked in Japan for a while.  There is no property crime -- none.  It is not accepted or tolerated, and it is not done.It is considered rude to wear your shoes into a dwelling, and so everywhere in Tokyo you see REALLY expensive pairs of shoes sitting unattended outside of doors.  Same with bicycles.  People ride them everywhere, and practically throw them in a pile at work in the morning and pick them up at the end of the day.  No locks or anything.

Simply put, the level of any crime that exists in a culture exists because it is tolerated.
 
2013-03-18 08:31:19 AM  

Bontesla: What incentive are we giving rape victims to come forward?


Aside from legal revenge?

I don't see where that's not enough incentive unless you're in a position to get true justice somehow, that's a pretty sweet deal.

As for the shaming: that happens to everyone who accuses people of a crime. Your story will be taken apart with a fine toothed comb by people much smarter and more evil that you'll ever meet elsewhere because that's how lawyers make money. Lawyers DO have a weakness, though. Put a stake through their heart and it's over, just like every other blood sucker. Also they're vulnerable to hard evidence of the truth. Difficult to obtain, but something to consider.
 
2013-03-18 08:32:27 AM  
To: doug from uplandThe poor, innocent, virginal, pure girl in this case just has such bad luck doesn't she?!
She's a female and by definition not able to be accountable for her actions. Is that how it is? It's a question that occurs to me as I have followed this case.
The girl is a disgrace to her family and her community. Tell me how she isn't.
15 posted on Monday, March 18, 2013 2:21:57 AM by


Freepers: a world of compassion
 
2013-03-18 08:33:13 AM  
I've yet to see any evidence that the two kids convicted were guilty of anything other than being douches. Another kid took the widely distributed photo of the girl being carried around and testimony in court said that the one teen stopped any sexual advances once he realized that the girl was unconscious.

Just so we're clear, the tweets talking about "you are so raped" were not sent by one of these two. One of these two did distribute a nude picture of the girl, so the child porn charge is warranted. Doesn't make him a rapist though.

I'll change my stance if somebody can show the evidence against these two.
 
2013-03-18 08:34:21 AM  
si0.twimg.com

I wouldn't mind ruining her life.   Well, ruining her evening.   Well, ok, ruining two minutes of her evening.

Don't judge me.
 
2013-03-18 08:34:27 AM  

Typhoid: /I couldn't. I was 16. I didn't know him. And I was still terrified to come forward because of crap like this.


Probably why you were targeted.
 
2013-03-18 08:34:39 AM  

serial_crusher: Bontesla: We're responsible for the reason why rape victims largely don't come forward. Perhaps not you or I - but certainly our society. We punish the victims. We collectively ask what they could have done to be responsible for their own rapes.

Why is rape the only crime that's a big deal in that department?  Suppose somebody breaks into your house and steals all your stuff, so you mosey on down to the police station to file a report.  Cop starts asking tough questions like "did you leave the door unlocked?", "do you have a dog?", "oh, you forgot to set your alarm system that day?"  Victim blaming, I say!  Next time that victim gets robbed, they'll be less likely to report it!

/ well not really, but only because there's not people like you going around convincing robbery victims that they should let their robbers go free instead of cooperating with the police.


I think rape is unique because of the element of consent.  Investigations must determine if there was or wan't any. An unbiased investigation must explore both possibilities.  A lot of people seem to have a problem with one of the possibilities being explored.  Perhaps they don't want victims traumatized.  Perhaps they don't want unbiased investigations.

The problem goes beyond police, though.  Everyone thinks he/she is an investigator, even of things that happen on the other side of the farking planet.
 
2013-03-18 08:35:45 AM  

Philbb: Just as an aside; would they have been talking about these boys ruining their lives if they were not football players? If they had been, perhaps, very good students and members of the school band?


When bandies stick their fingers up someone, she's conscious and has given permission.
 
2013-03-18 08:36:36 AM  
Is this the female version of white knighting?
 
2013-03-18 08:37:09 AM  
A big problem is that she was brought to multiple parties and nobody stopped them.
 
2013-03-18 08:39:12 AM  

Jake Havechek: Those 2 kids should be hanged.


5/10 only because of the simplicity.
 
2013-03-18 08:41:22 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: I've yet to see any evidence that the two kids convicted were guilty of anything other than being douches. Another kid took the widely distributed photo of the girl being carried around and testimony in court said that the one teen stopped any sexual advances once he realized that the girl was unconscious.

Just so we're clear, the tweets talking about "you are so raped" were not sent by one of these two. One of these two did distribute a nude picture of the girl, so the child porn charge is warranted. Doesn't make him a rapist though.

I'll change my stance if somebody can show the evidence against these two.


Your stance is slightly less important than that of the judge who saw all the evidence.  Being a juvenile case (inexplicably), getting you that evidence will prove difficult.  So, I guess go on with whatever opinion you feel is warranted.
 
2013-03-18 08:43:02 AM  

Genevieve Marie: young men need to be taught to firmly respect a "no".


That doesn't go far enough.

Young men (and women) need to be taught that in ANY situation except one where consent is clearly and freely given, do not proceed.  No means no, but a lot of other things mean no, too.
 
2013-03-18 08:43:32 AM  

badhatharry: A big problem is that she was brought to multiple parties and nobody stopped them.


Who supplied the alcohol?
If it had been Ecstasy or heroin, you better believe there would be an all out man hunt to find out where the impairment substances came from.
Not One Word About where the alcohol came from.
 
2013-03-18 08:47:22 AM  

Typhoid: Because if she deserved it, then it can't happen to you and yours, right?


And because if he deserved the criminal charges, then you and yours can't be thrown in jail for any drunken hookups.

/that's the reason for all the "rape culture" drama
//parents have sons as well as daughters, and want their sons to be protected from rape accusations as much as they want their daughters to be protected from rape
///and everybody wants the laws to be, "my children can do whatever they want, while everyone else's children should suffer the consequences."
 
2013-03-18 08:47:28 AM  

feckingmorons: I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.


That's not even the real punishment. Being labeled as a sex offender is, and will basically ruin whatever chance they had at a normal life.

/not crying over it, though
 
2013-03-18 08:50:20 AM  

poot_rootbeer: Young men (and women) need to be taught that in ANY situation except one where consent is clearly and freely given, do not proceed. No means no, but a lot of other things mean no, too.


You assume it's a misunderstanding. A lion doesn't give two shiats about how the gazelle feels.  Most rape is predation. It is not a spontaneous event. The mark is chosen, groomed, separated from the crowd, and preyed upon.  That whole "I thought she wanted it" is just a lie they tell after the fact, often to themselves as well as others.
 
2013-03-18 08:53:11 AM  
How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

How does her being intoxicated even come up in this discussion? I got plenty drunk at her age and nary a one of the guys I was partying with raped me. Usually they just stuck a pillow under my head and threw a blanket over me. Because they weren't, you know,  rapists.That kind of behavior was frowned upon in the environment I grew up in. Sort of the opposite of a rape culture if you will.

The girl's family has received death threats. Because she reported an assault.

The authorities and adults in charge were complicit.

And assholes are lamenting the ruined futures of a couple of predators who kidnapped and raped a girl who had the audacity to break up with one of their teammates.

Not to mention the outrageous victim blaming/shaming we have seen.

How should this be described if not as rape culture? Suggestions?
 
2013-03-18 08:53:17 AM  

wickedragon: jso2897: wickedragon: jso2897: Yogimus: stuffstuffstuff

Have you read about Halden prison? Worth a look if you have ten minutes to spare.

I don't have any time to spare on "reading assignments" - if you've something to say, and citation to support it, I'll be happy to listen.

It's a prison that treats the inmates as people, no matter what they've done to deserve prison time. They get a modicrum of freedom, education and worthwhile jobs all the while being given trust and respect from the prison staff.
Even though they take in murderes and rapists violence is unheard of inside the prison walls and recidivism rates seems very low (although the prison is to new to give any sort of accurate reading of such yet). Inmates leave the prison as better people than they were when they went in. Seems like a good thing.


It's an interesting social experiment - it's nowhere close to yielding any results. And when it does, if they actually have achieved anything new, I will be extremely surprised.There have been other mini-studies that looked promising too - and with salvageable people, some of them are "work". But they only succeed to the extent that they screen out the true sociopaths - easy to do if you limit your sample to 250 people.
There is no evidence, to date, that sociopathy is a curable condition. A sociopath isn't broken - he is lacking components that cannot be installed after-market.
With human beings, as so many have pointed out - if you fark up that first seven years enough, you have made a hairless ape - and there is no "magic" that can make that ape human.
You see, I can tell you what those boys are thinking right now. They are angry. Angry that their lives have been messed up by a "lying biatch" who "can't be a sport". They think they have been "lynched".
They will nurture that rage over the next few inconvenient and unpleasant years. Their attitudes toward "biatches" and "hoes" will harden. And someday, they will get even. Hope it isn't anybody you or me care about.
 
2013-03-18 08:54:00 AM  
At some point, I hope these boys realize that this conviction may be the greatest good they contribute to society.

Getting young women drunk and taking advantage has been extremely prevalent among student athletes, and the marvelous role models they have like Kobe, Ben R. and others don't help.

This conviction should remind young men all over that molesting an unconscious woman is rape and will ruin them. I could cafe less about these boys doing time.
 
2013-03-18 08:54:01 AM  

vudukungfu: badhatharry: A big problem is that she was brought to multiple parties and nobody stopped them.

Who supplied the alcohol?
If it had been Ecstasy or heroin, you better believe there would be an all out man hunt to find out where the impairment substances came from.
Not One Word About where the alcohol came from.


I don't care where the alcohol came from. Alcohol is not the problem. A farked up culture is the problem. I'm not saying things were perfect in the good ole days.  Girls got raped in the back room at parties in the fifties too. It wasn't out in the open like this case. That kind of thing would get your ass kicked.
 
2013-03-18 08:54:34 AM  
"There's always that moment of just, lives are destroyed," Callan lamented. "But in terms of what happens now, the most severe thing with these young men is being labeled as registered sex offenders. That label is now placed on them by Ohio law. That will haunt them for the rest of their lives."

What a f*cking shame.

NOT
 
2013-03-18 08:54:44 AM  

Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: I'm not entirely sure how, probably because my parents put virtually no restrictions on what I read and I ended up reading the right sort of books and articles, but I never bought into the idea that it was somehow a woman's fault if she's assaulted. If I'd been paying attention to the messages I was getting from the culture around me though, I would have come to totally different conclusions.

God bless Judy Blume. She saved a generation of women from growing up with weird ideas about sex.


Amen to this! My mom was very cool about not being restrictive about the books I read and she was
also very forthright with me about sex. At the time, the latter aspect squiked me right the hell out, but
in hindsight, it was one of the best things she did for me. I grew up knowing that sex was not a bad
thing but that it also was not something you could do without responsibility.

I have 2 boys - one 18 and one 11. Even though we are a Catholic family (husband more conservatively
so than me), we're not foolish enough to assume that our boys will stay virgins until marriage. I sure
as hell didn't, and my husband didn't. We're very big on the whole "no means no", "drunken yes means no", "unconscious means no", etc...

I once told my oldest son, much to his embarrassment, "I don't care if you're poised and in the process of 'sliding home' - if the other person changes their mind, you stop. Period."
 
2013-03-18 08:55:10 AM  
Here are two reasonably good looking, popular guys who could probably have wild, consensual sex with just about any Stuebenville high school girl -- and they choose to poke the limp, unresponsive body of a girl who they assumed was pretty much dead. And videotape it.

How farking depraved is that?

It's not about the sex, it's abuse and power and privilege.

I'm saddened by the fact that they only get a year, but it's entirely just that anytime someone Googles these kids for the rest of their lives, "guilty of gang rape" is going to come up next to their names.  Good luck getting a respectable job or girlfriend down the road, fellas.
 
2013-03-18 08:57:13 AM  

wickedragon: jso2897: wickedragon: jso2897: Yogimus: stuffstuffstuff

Have you read about Halden prison? Worth a look if you have ten minutes to spare.

I don't have any time to spare on "reading assignments" - if you've something to say, and citation to support it, I'll be happy to listen.

It's a prison that treats the inmates as people, no matter what they've done to deserve prison time. They get a modicrum of freedom, education and worthwhile jobs all the while being given trust and respect from the prison staff.
Even though they take in murderes and rapists violence is unheard of inside the prison walls and recidivism rates seems very low (although the prison is to new to give any sort of accurate reading of such yet). Inmates leave the prison as better people than they were when they went in. Seems like a good thing.


Halden holds 252 Norwegian prisoners at a cost of about $183,000 per inmate per year.  Average cost of federal, state, and local U. S. inmates was about $30,600 each per year in 2007; $74 billion total.  If all of those inmates were in  Halden, it would have cost over $441 billion per year.


Plus the cost of building 10,000 Haldens:  $22.5 billion up front.


"A cell includes amenities such as a television, a refrigerator, unbarred vertical windows that let in more light, and designer furniture. Prisoners share kitchens and living rooms every 10-12 cells, jogging trails, and a sound studio."


So no, it would not be a good thing.
 
2013-03-18 08:58:36 AM  

doubled99: "rape culture"
Anyone who even uses this term should just stick to writing essays for their women's studies course.


Next time you have a thought, let it go.
 
2013-03-18 08:58:39 AM  

bigworld: Here are two reasonably good looking, popular guys who could probably have wild, consensual sex with just about any Stuebenville high school girl -- and they choose to poke the limp, unresponsive body of a girl who they assumed was pretty much dead. And videotape it.

How farking depraved is that?

It's not about the sex, it's abuse and power and privilege.

I'm saddened by the fact that they only get a year, but it's entirely just that anytime someone Googles these kids for the rest of their lives, "guilty of gang rape" is going to come up next to their names.  Good luck getting a respectable job or girlfriend down the road, fellas.


My guess is that they have "performance" issues or are secretly gay...NTTAWWT.
 
2013-03-18 08:59:05 AM  
I bet both of these kids went to some sort of church - not only should their parents be humiliated for raising sons like this, but also whichever priest/pastor/reverend/rabbi/iman/chaplain that was their "spiritual leader".
 
2013-03-18 08:59:16 AM  

Bucky Katt: feckingmorons: GAT_00: bronyaur1: I find it curious that those who defend Fox journalism all of a sudden are outraged about this.

Meh, they have something legitimate to smear CNN with for a change.  Of course, since nobody actually watches CNN, this is really not doing a whole lot, but they like to pretend they matter.

GAT_00: bronyaur1: I find it curious that those who defend Fox journalism all of a sudden are outraged about this.

Meh, they have something legitimate to smear CNN with for a change.  Of course, since nobody actually watches CNN, this is really not doing a whole lot, but they like to pretend they matter.

I don't really watch any of the cable news stations (or broadcast news stations in the US for that matter) save the local cable one. Not that you can see this because you ignore opinions that are not in lockstep with yours.

Try watching Bloomberg News.  Informative with little shouting and cute reporters.

[cdn.gotraffic.net image 200x266][cdn.gotraffic.net image 200x266]


Sure, but I don't get it in HD.
 
2013-03-18 08:59:40 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: I think rape is unique because of the element of consent. Investigations must determine if there was or wan't any. An unbiased investigation must explore both possibilities. A lot of people seem to have a problem with one of the possibilities being explored. Perhaps they don't want victims traumatized. Perhaps they don't want unbiased investigations.

The problem goes beyond police, though. Everyone thinks he/she is an investigator, even of things that happen on the other side of the farking planet.


Agreed- rape exposes a significant flaw in our legal system. To convict someone of a crime, there must be proof beyond reasonable doubt that the person committed the crime. In many instances of rape, especially if it was not obviously injurious, and doubly so if the victim does not seek medical attention or police action immediately, there may be little, if any, physical evidence. If the rape also occurred in a secluded location, then the only evidence available are eyewitness accounts, which, even if honestly recounted by the victim, have been repeatedly shown to be unreliable in stressful situations.

So how do we fix that flaw? We can't lock up people just because they are accused of rape- they are as entitled to due process as anyone else. Neither can we ignore the victims and let rape go unpunished. I don't think we solve any of the problems raised in this thread until we resolve this issue.
 
2013-03-18 08:59:46 AM  

deanis: Jake Havechek: Those 2 kids should be hanged.

5/10 only because of the simplicity.


+1 for avoiding the grammatical mistake that would make a double entendre.
 
2013-03-18 09:00:42 AM  
Future frat boys stopped before they entered the most fruitful hunting grounds for young rapists: college.

This scenario has been played out so many times without this level of media coverage. Hopefully it deters future bros from this kind of behavior, but I doubt it will since there will always be people out there who will white knight them to the death.

People will always get drunk and fark, but for christ sakes have some respect for others, and at least a shred of self respect.
 
2013-03-18 09:01:33 AM  

Bit'O'Gristle: I hope you get gang raped in the ass in prison every night by a well hung tranny who is into inflicting pain, and sells you to all his butt buddies for a pack of smokes, and you end up skinny toothless cum guzzling homo's upon your release.


thesignalinthenoise.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-03-18 09:02:57 AM  
Sorry Candy, but you have a stripper name, therefore your opinion doesn't count.
 
2013-03-18 09:03:01 AM  
Anyone actually surprised by this?  They were sports players, or ones with the potential to go pro, and now they won't and the town they live in actually supported them over the victim.  That is sick enough.  Having the news media weep more for them than the victim, that's almost expected at this point.  There is an old joke I read once about how you know you've married a liberal when your spouse misses your funeral because they're protesting the harsh sentence received by your killer.  That's what's happening here.  It's embarrassing that we have a news media that in a rape event, is caring more about the attackers because they were potentially going to be great football players and their victim, by comparison, was a no body.

I am expecting follow ups about this woman being attacked and harassed for pressing charges.
 
2013-03-18 09:04:00 AM  
Looks like this could be a long way from over:

Link


Good.
 
2013-03-18 09:04:04 AM  
At some point, I hope these boys realize that this conviction may be the greatest good they contribute to society.

Getting young women drunk and taking advantage has been extremely prevalent among student athletes, men of all ages and types,  and the marvelous role models they have like Kobe, Ben R. and others don't help.

FTFY
 
2013-03-18 09:05:18 AM  

cman: feckingmorons: cman: I think this is a foot in mouth moment.

If you read it it seems like she is disappointed that they threw their young lives away. She is not saying that the rapists are good people or that they don't deserve what they are about to expect, nor does she say anything bad about the victim or show the victim in any negative light.

TLDR; she could have said it better

Why be an apologist for these 'journalists'? They insist on giving us opinion rather than news. Journalism is dead in this country, we have hand wringing actors who bring us snippets of news cloaked in opinion and maudlin sentimentality.

Apologist?

Motherfarker I am always biatching about the media being News Entertainment (coined in the spirit of Vince McMahon's Sports Entertainment) instead of real news.


Sometimes I want to string together the bits from your posts and flay you with them.

This isn't one of those times, and I'm finding myself agreeing with things you say far more often.

Am I changing as I grow older? Are you? Are we both?

/Maybe it's the second job and total lack of sleep after weeks without a day off.
 
2013-03-18 09:05:27 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: I've yet to see any evidence that the two kids convicted were guilty of anything other than being douches. Another kid took the widely distributed photo of the girl being carried around and testimony in court said that the one teen stopped any sexual advances once he realized that the girl was unconscious.

Just so we're clear, the tweets talking about "you are so raped" were not sent by one of these two. One of these two did distribute a nude picture of the girl, so the child porn charge is warranted. Doesn't make him a rapist though.

I'll change my stance if somebody can show the evidence against these two.


I think it only fair you use your real name so the women in your life will know that, should they get drunk with you, they're in for a rape. Because they'll be asking for it, right?
 
2013-03-18 09:05:36 AM  

rynthetyn: Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/172024/americas-rape-problem-we-refuse -a dmit-there-one#

At least people in India are starting to admit they have a problem, most Americans are convinced that we're all find and dandy.

One of my friends (and occasional farker) took part in this demonstration in Delhi this week where men held signs apologizing and making the statement that the change starts with them. I'd be shocked to ever see something like that here in the US.


You mean like the men that protested this very case?

http://www.politicususa.com/male-group-anonymous-standing-rape-cultur e .html
 
2013-03-18 09:05:41 AM  

poot_rootbeer: Genevieve Marie: young men need to be taught to firmly respect a "no".

That doesn't go far enough.

Young men (and women) need to be taught that in ANY situation except one where consent is clearly and freely given, do not proceed.  No means no, but a lot of other things mean no, too.


Easier to say only one thing means "yes," and it's gotta be on video.

/swear to farking christ, i got a lotta sex in my salad days & never ran into any problems
//i must be hot after all.
///too bad i didn't believe 'em or i coulda had more
 
2013-03-18 09:06:42 AM  

bigworld: How farking depraved is that?

It's not about the sex, it's abuse and power and privilege.


To some extent, yes, but the evolutionary psychology suggests that at some point in history, serial rapers were really good at spreading their genes. Abuse, power, and privilege may be what a (male) rapist is consciously craving, but the bottomline is that some part of his design information is telling his subconscious to do whatever it can to replicate itself. Not a popular or nice thought, and not an argument that should be used to condone rape, but it may help explain why it remains common amongst a large minority of the human population.
 
2013-03-18 09:06:44 AM  

vudukungfu: Philbb: Just as an aside; would they have been talking about these boys ruining their lives if they were not football players? If they had been, perhaps, very good students and members of the school band?

The lack of interest in the victim doesn't surprise me at all. I've known that since the beginning of the Penn State scandal when so people were all broke up over losing a coach and had no sympathy for the alleged victims.

Football is big business. Therefore, members of the football community have acted with impunity in a culture of rape for many, many moons.
Which is why I compare Football culture to Pakistani Culture. Both groups have the same mindset. Our cause is the greater cause and our people (male) can do no wrong. Women cannot play. But they can be used as chattel.
Gooooooooooooooo Team!


Yes! All football players are rapists! Pakistani football players doubley so. I think that's where the term "rape rape" originated.

It's not football culture, it's team sports culture. In HS, these kids are often held up as athletes and begin to feel entitled. I've never heard a coach tell a team that "no means no", on the other hand i've never heard any one of them condone or suggest drugging a taking advantage of anyone.
 
2013-03-18 09:07:45 AM  

vudukungfu: badhatharry: A big problem is that she was brought to multiple parties and nobody stopped them.

Who supplied the alcohol?
If it had been Ecstasy or heroin, you better believe there would be an all out man hunt to find out where the impairment substances came from.
Not One Word About where the alcohol came from.


Will you and all the other instant-karma types please wait for the grand jury that's been convened?!
 
2013-03-18 09:10:27 AM  

borg: feckingmorons: I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.

Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives?  Thats what will ruin their lives and any chance of decent employment.


I think the issue here is that it stops them from getting football scholarships. One of them even said it after the verdict. "Nobody will want me now"  I don't think he was worried about getting a girlfriend though he'll probably have a tough time with that too. Will probably get to be the girl friend all he wants for the next year or so.  If he wanted to salvage anything he would have plead guilt and said "I was drunk and stupid I deserve what I get"  That I would have respected.
 
2013-03-18 09:11:36 AM  

ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

How does her being intoxicated even come up in this discussion? I got plenty drunk at her age and nary a one of the guys I was partying with raped me. Usually they just stuck a pillow under my head and threw a blanket over me. Because they weren't, you know,  rapists.That kind of behavior was frowned upon in the environment I grew up in. Sort of the opposite of a rape culture if you will.

The girl's family has received death threats. Because she reported an assault.

The authorities and adults in charge were complicit.

And assholes are lamenting the ruined futures of a couple of predators who kidnapped and raped a girl who had the audacity to break up with one of their teammates.

Not to mention the outrageous victim blaming/shaming we have seen.

How should this be described if not as rape culture? Suggestions?


A rape subculture within a larger, healthier culture.
 
2013-03-18 09:12:17 AM  

Yogimus: Most rape is predation. It is not a spontaneous event. The mark is chosen, groomed, separated from the crowd, and preyed upon.  That whole "I thought she wanted it" is just a lie they tell after the fact, often to themselves as well as others.


You know, when you make valid points like this, it's difficult for me to ignore-list you over your habit of telling rape victims that they should have done more to stop their attackers.
 
2013-03-18 09:13:49 AM  
I'm torn. As the father of two girls, I'd just as soon see these bastards castrated.

Then my "social conditioning" kicks in, and suddenly it's not so simple anymore. Poor guys, can't get any booty by honest means, have to resort to stealing it. Then we have all these conservative females, hoarding all the booty and unwilling to share it.

Maybe there ought to be a regressive "Booty Tax" to help out the less fortunate, so they don't have to resort to a life of crime?
 
2013-03-18 09:16:23 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: Halden holds 252 Norwegian prisoners at a cost of about $183,000 per inmate per year.  Average cost of federal, state, and local U. S. inmates was about $30,600 each per year in 2007; $74 billion total.  If all of those inmates were in  Halden, it would have cost over $441 billion per year.


If the Halden model rehabilitates criminals into productive members of society, and US prisons do nothing to limit recidivism and in fact foster an environment of career criminalism*, then what does it matter what their respective costs are.  One works, the other doesn't.

(* don't know if either part of this is proven true)
 
2013-03-18 09:18:41 AM  
cman: "How do you teach against that?"

The same way you teach people that might *does not* make right, in general.
There's no shortage of behaviors that arise 'naturally' in less civilized, if not outright primitive or anarchic, settings.  (theft, murder, cannibalism, slavery, etc.)
These things can be taught, taught against or all-but-ignored and thus passively permitted.

Western Civlization, today, is pretty good about teaching against quite a few of them.
Rape, however, still tends to fall under all-but-ignored and thus passive-permitted.
Particularly when it involves "promising"/"prominent" individuals.
 
2013-03-18 09:19:26 AM  

keylock71: The only thing these two little assholes were remorseful for is posting it online and getting caught...

They got off easy, legally, though, and I hope where ever they go for they rest of their lives, someone will be there to let these rapists' coworkers and friends know what they did.


THIS...

What I find sad is the notion that somewhere it was said that they didn't believe that they were doing anything wrong, that this was common practice.

Sad... but at some point I have to admit, I've noticed that there is  a lot of online amateur crap that does this "scenario", so that they are desensitized is not really a big surprise.  If I go with the online stuff, I'd have to believe that there is not a single attractive woman left in the US that isn't in one of these "home movies", especially college girls.

But the truth is that these kids don't appear to be the type to have been explained the difference between real and fiction, and right and wrong.
 
2013-03-18 09:19:46 AM  
I think they could of been singled out because they were athletes.    Given special attention.

Like Mathletes in our school.   Or those smug members of the elite Memory Team....    ohhh, those parties get pretty crazy at times.
 
2013-03-18 09:20:02 AM  

vudukungfu: Football is big business. Therefore, members of the football community have acted with impunity in a culture of rape for many, many moons.
Which is why I compare Football culture to Pakistani Culture. Both groups have the same mindset. Our cause is the greater cause and our people (male) can do no wrong. Women cannot play. But they can be used as chattel.
Gooooooooooooooo Team!


If they had not been prosecuted, they could have had a career as cops or political flunkies. Similar mindset.
 
2013-03-18 09:20:11 AM  
Katie Couric has really let herself go.
 
2013-03-18 09:20:47 AM  
It seems to me that a large part of the problem is how we, as a culture, approach the topic of sex, especially along gender lines.  Sex is treated like a commodity, like a possession.  Guys "get laid"1 and it doesn't seem too much of a stretch that a guy who feels he deserves this commodity will attempt to take it.  But sex isn't something someone gets, has2, or is given.  Sex is something two (or more, if you're into that) people do.

When my lady and I are intimate, we are engaging in a mutually pleasurable activity together, because we both want to.

I'm also troubled by the "sex = manhood" mindset.  Whether or not I have engaged in sexual activity has nothing to do with whether or not I'm a Man.  One is a Man when one behaves as a Man, and acts as a Man should (With honour, courage, and nobility, for a start).  I don't want to threadjack this into a discussion of what makes a Man, so I'm not going to elaborate further, but "has experienced sex" doesn't appear anywhere in the list.


1. yes, I know some women use the same terminology, but that's a recent development, and an indication of a relaxation of moral standards than maintained women weren't supposed to be interested in sex, which is tangentical to what I'm talking about
2. has as in possesses
 
2013-03-18 09:20:54 AM  

rynthetyn: People weren't exactly fond of her making clear that drunk women can't consent under any circumstance


BS.
 
2013-03-18 09:22:13 AM  

HAMMERTOE: I'm torn. As the father of two girls, I'd just as soon see these bastards castrated.

Then my "social conditioning" kicks in, and suddenly it's not so simple anymore. Poor guys, can't get any booty by honest means, have to resort to stealing it. Then we have all these conservative females, hoarding all the booty and unwilling to share it.

Maybe there ought to be a regressive "Booty Tax" to help out the less fortunate, so they don't have to resort to a life of crime?


Are you comparing rape to various socialist policies? Or were you going for the wealth redistribution idea?

Either way, I'd say it should get a few bites.  8.5/10 I would think.
 
2013-03-18 09:22:20 AM  

borg: feckingmorons: I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.

Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives?  Thats what will ruin their lives and any chance of decent employment.


According to a Ohio lawyer friend of mine that did appellate work for sex offenders, yes, they would.  Possibly as a Tier 3, which is tantamount to being found guilty of rape (or other serious sexual crime) as an adult.

Finally, an instance of the sex offender law that works exactly as it's intended to.
 
2013-03-18 09:22:48 AM  

Lionel Mandrake: Seemed like pretty typical shiatty tabloid-esque coverage to me.  I didn't think the women were too horrible, but they were far from good.  The guy sounded pretty dickish.

Yeah, they should have shown some concern for the victim, but without a name, a face, and some sobbing on film, they don't have much.

About what I'd expect from CNN


Well, we know one thing about the victim - she's white. Otherwise, this story doesn't make it to the national stage...
 
2013-03-18 09:25:09 AM  

Tricky Chicken: Are you comparing rape to various socialist policies? Or were you going for the wealth redistribution idea?

Either way, I'd say it should get a few bites. 8.5/10 I would think.


Okay. If it's not a valid comparison/ contrast, but a troll instead, go ahead and knock some holes in it.
 
2013-03-18 09:25:16 AM  

automaticman: Lionel Mandrake: Seemed like pretty typical shiatty tabloid-esque coverage to me.  I didn't think the women were too horrible, but they were far from good.  The guy sounded pretty dickish.

Yeah, they should have shown some concern for the victim, but without a name, a face, and some sobbing on film, they don't have much.

About what I'd expect from CNN

Well, we know one thing about the victim - she's white. Otherwise, this story doesn't make it to the national stage...


wasn't the chick from the duke lacross scandal a non-white?
 
2013-03-18 09:26:15 AM  

LiteWerk: So those sick people feel sorry for the PERPS rather than the victim?  Really??!!  I think they may deserve more jail time than they've been given.  And to be clear, the arrogant, self-entitled little punks brought it upon themselves.  Also, after they get out of jail, I expect them to give every female they encounter for the rest of their sorry lives the utmost respect in every situation, or else hopefully a bunch of bigger guys beats the crap out of them.  Would also hope every young female they encounter refuses to have anything with their disgusting selves.

/they should be shunned for the rest of their lives


Is your world so black and white? It is possible to feel sorry for everyone involved you know. I don't feel sorry for any of them but I'm not a very empathetic person and honestly don't care much for my fellow humans so I guess I'm a bad person for not wasting the emotional energy.

Either way, it is possible to have empathy for everyone. It is okay to discuss that empathy even.
 
2013-03-18 09:26:23 AM  

martid4: Katie Couric has really let herself go.


that made me lol
 
2013-03-18 09:27:24 AM  

CeroX: wasn't the chick from the duke lacross scandal a non-white?


Facts are useless against the race card.  Move along.
 
2013-03-18 09:28:20 AM  

poot_rootbeer: BarkingUnicorn: Halden holds 252 Norwegian prisoners at a cost of about $183,000 per inmate per year.  Average cost of federal, state, and local U. S. inmates was about $30,600 each per year in 2007; $74 billion total.  If all of those inmates were in  Halden, it would have cost over $441 billion per year.

If the Halden model rehabilitates criminals into productive members of society, and US prisons do nothing to limit recidivism and in fact foster an environment of career criminalism*, then what does it matter what their respective costs are.  One works, the other doesn't.

(* don't know if either part of this is proven true)


This is a good point; the calculated "true" cost of a prison sentence should include estimates on reduction in recidivism rates. On the other hand, rehabilitating doesn't mean coddling. Prison education and work placement programs have been shown to drive down repeat offenses; I doubt the same can be said for giving inmates fridges and TVs.
 
2013-03-18 09:28:37 AM  

Tricky Chicken: Are you comparing rape to various socialist policies? Or were you going for the wealth redistribution idea?


I for one would like to opt out of "rape redistribution" preemptively, just in case.
 
2013-03-18 09:28:43 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: The problem goes beyond police, though. Everyone thinks he/she is an investigator, even of things that happen on the other side of the farking planet


Well yeah, what else are we going to use the Internet for?  Scrutinizing other peoples' business is better than porn.
 
2013-03-18 09:28:56 AM  
i470.photobucket.com

Notice that what gives these Loverboys such a pass by these media cretins is that they were "promising star football players". Like as if that dirty slut destroyed some billionaire a couple of draft picks for his college football racket. Boo farking hoo hoo hoo! Seems this culture really needs a brain enema to flush out this football jock worship they have. Football is NOT everything.
 
2013-03-18 09:29:05 AM  

rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.


Ok am I missing something here? I'll grant you I have given scant attention to this case, but wasn't this a situation wherein two guys fingering a passed out girl? When I read the article I was stunned that it referred to this incident as a brutal gang rape. Now you're comparing this to the Indian incidents. Do I not know something about this case or are there really people who don't grasp the huge divide between fingering a passed out girl and actual violent public bloody gang rape of a screaming woman who later dies from the injuries?

///Glad they got convicted
 
2013-03-18 09:29:25 AM  

ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?


I think people are objecting to it being broadly applied to the US.
 
2013-03-18 09:30:49 AM  

UnspokenVoice: LiteWerk: So those sick people feel sorry for the PERPS rather than the victim?  Really??!!  I think they may deserve more jail time than they've been given.  And to be clear, the arrogant, self-entitled little punks brought it upon themselves.  Also, after they get out of jail, I expect them to give every female they encounter for the rest of their sorry lives the utmost respect in every situation, or else hopefully a bunch of bigger guys beats the crap out of them.  Would also hope every young female they encounter refuses to have anything with their disgusting selves.

/they should be shunned for the rest of their lives

Is your world so black and white? It is possible to feel sorry for everyone involved you know. I don't feel sorry for any of them but I'm not a very empathetic person and honestly don't care much for my fellow humans so I guess I'm a bad person for not wasting the emotional energy.

Either way, it is possible to have empathy for everyone. It is okay to discuss that empathy even.


I feel sorry for a lot of folk who've done bad things

But I draw the occasional line. Here's one of 'em.
 
2013-03-18 09:31:13 AM  

spqr_ca: Krymson Tyde: Of course he is, but he still needs his testicles kicked into his sinuses.


This. So much goddamn this.
 
2013-03-18 09:34:34 AM  
Seriously? What the fark is with all the female rape apologists lately?
 
2013-03-18 09:35:22 AM  

Waxing_Chewbacca: I think it only fair you use your real name so the women in your life will know that, should they get drunk with you, they're in for a rape. Because they'll be asking for it, right?


That's just a plain ignorant thing to say. If the guys are indeed rapists, they deserve to be punished. To this point, I've seen no indisputable evidence that they did anything other than have some drunken sex with an equally drunk teen with a history of being a party girl.
 
2013-03-18 09:37:43 AM  

serial_crusher: Suppose somebody breaks into your house and steals all your stuff, so you mosey on down to the police station to file a report. Cop starts asking tough questions like "did you leave the door unlocked?", "do you have a dog?", "oh, you forgot to set your alarm system that day?"


What the fark? I've reported missing/stolen property in the past and haven't been asked any of those questions. What earthly reason would there even be for asking something like "Do you have a dog?"
 
2013-03-18 09:37:49 AM  

penthesilea: [i470.photobucket.com image 500x333]

Shameful.


Rape culture?  What rape culture?

/boys will be boys, te-he!
 
2013-03-18 09:38:07 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: I think it only fair you use your real name so the women in your life will know that, should they get drunk with you, they're in for a rape. Because they'll be asking for it, right?

That's just a plain ignorant thing to say. If the guys are indeed rapists, they deserve to be punished. To this point, I've seen no indisputable evidence that they did anything other than have some drunken sex with an equally drunk teen with a history of being a party girl.


Facepalm ... no consent = rape rape.  Are you actually this dense or just willfully ignorant?

Let's be very clear on this ... because I'm sure the next time you're drunk, you wouldn't want some bigger guy having sex with you, right? Or are you okay with someone pounding your ass into submission when drunk?
 
2013-03-18 09:38:52 AM  

Dragonflew: Seriously? What the fark is with all the female rape apologists lately?


What the fark is up with all the people who are fine with taking a woman's word that they were raped without requiring any proof?

Duke lacrosse much?
 
2013-03-18 09:39:17 AM  
Fark them in the a.

/lookin at you, prison rapist man
 
2013-03-18 09:39:58 AM  

liam76: ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

I think people are objecting to it being broadly applied to the US.


What's wrong with it being applied in general to this country? 

"The majority of sexual assaults are not reported to the authorities.
The Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) reports that the majority of rapes and sexual assaults perpetrated against women and girls in the United States between 1992 and 2000 were not reported to the police. Only 36 percent of rapes, 34 percent of attempted rapes, and 26 percent of sexual assaults were reported.

Self-blame or guilt.Shame, embarrassment, or desire to keep the assault a private matter.Humiliation or fear of the perpetrator or other individual's perceptions.Fear of not being believed or of being accused of playing a role in the crime.Lack of trust in the criminal justice system.According to the National Institute of Justice. How is that not indicative of a US-wide problem with rape culture?
 
2013-03-18 09:41:33 AM  

TV's Vinnie: [i470.photobucket.com image 500x333]

Notice that what gives these Loverboys such a pass by these media cretins is that they were "promising star football players". Like as if that dirty slut destroyed some billionaire a couple of draft picks for his college football racket. Boo farking hoo hoo hoo! Seems this culture really needs a brain enema to flush out this football jock worship they have. Football is NOT everything.


Bingo.
Nailed it.
The same daddy warbucks' that control the media, and yes, it is controlled, are the same, if not in bed with the daddy warbucks' that own teams. There is a select small amount of the population like is very wealthy and likes to play puppeteer. They have no qualms about breaking rules, lying, or committing crimes to stay wealthy, either.
For a citation, you can check out how the apologists vote.
 
2013-03-18 09:41:57 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Dragonflew: Seriously? What the fark is with all the female rape apologists lately?

What the fark is up with all the people who are fine with taking a woman's word that they were raped without requiring any proof?

Duke lacrosse much?


From your posts in the other thread, I don't even think you believe in rape.
 
2013-03-18 09:42:56 AM  
They're not asking for it....but.... getting so drunk that you pass out for hours is piss poor judgement.  Whether you get beaten, robbed, raped, I think there is always an issue of self responsibility to protect yourself from getting so inebriated that you can no longer function.  That being said....she would have never even known anything had ever happened to her if someone hadn't tipped her off.
 
2013-03-18 09:45:12 AM  

doglover: Tricky Chicken: Are you comparing rape to various socialist policies? Or were you going for the wealth redistribution idea?

I for one would like to opt out of "rape redistribution" preemptively, just in case.


I don't think it would be an opt out situation.  Wimins have the hoohaa, mens wants the hoohaas.  It is clearly a monopoly.

This is clearly an 'eat the rich' policy I can get behind.
 
2013-03-18 09:45:38 AM  

ginandbacon: Only 36 percent of rapes, 34 percent of attempted rapes, and 26 percent of sexual assaults were reported.


If they weren't reported, how do they know about them?

Also, you're making a mistake buying into the PR of a "justice" system. We do not a justice system. We have a legal system, and honestly it's been my experience you're right not to trust it. I've rarely seen it do anything but harm.

That said, it's what we do have and occasionally that harm falls on the right targets. If you can prove you're raped you're not gonna find a more helpful collection of harmers to do your dirty work for you than the police. Rapists are the favorite target of EVERY branch of law enforcement. They hates 'em more than normal people.
 
2013-03-18 09:45:40 AM  

serial_crusher: Bontesla: We're responsible for the reason why rape victims largely don't come forward. Perhaps not you or I - but certainly our society. We punish the victims. We collectively ask what they could have done to be responsible for their own rapes.

Why is rape the only crime that's a big deal in that department?  Suppose somebody breaks into your house and steals all your stuff, so you mosey on down to the police station to file a report.  Cop starts asking tough questions like "did you leave the door unlocked?", "do you have a dog?", "oh, you forgot to set your alarm system that day?"  Victim blaming, I say!  Next time that victim gets robbed, they'll be less likely to report it!

/ well not really, but only because there's not people like you going around convincing robbery victims that they should let their robbers go free instead of cooperating with the police.


Yeah, that was a sad moment. I placed 'em into my bit bucket and they'll be ignored from here on out. Nothing of value was lost. They complain about the rape culture and then condone keeping the cycle going. It's sick but maybe they want to keep the situation up so that they can have the attention and the reason to complain? I don't know, I'm not a shrink. I figure it is better that I ignore them than point out the hypocrisy and have to suffer the whining.
 
2013-03-18 09:49:58 AM  
I haven't been paying much attention to this case. But I read about the judge's verdict this morning and I'm not seeing how these boys fingering a drunk girl's vajaja can be classified as a "brutal gang rape." As I understand it, she was not penetrated with any penis. I'm not saying that the boys shouldn't be beaten senseless, but I think the media has made a bigger deal out of this than it actually was.
 
2013-03-18 09:50:16 AM  

liam76: ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

I think people are objecting to it being broadly applied to the US.


Why shouldn't it be broadly applied to the US? It's a country-wide problem. According to the National Institute of Justice:

"The Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) reports that the majority of rapes and sexual assaults perpetrated against women and girls in the United States between 1992 and 2000 were not reported to the police. Only 36 percent of rapes, 34 percent of attempted rapes, and 26 percent of sexual assaults were reported.
Self-blame or guilt.Shame, embarrassment, or desire to keep the assault a private matter.Humiliation or fear of the perpetrator or other individual's perceptions.Fear of not being believed or of being accused of playing a role in the crime.Lack of trust in the criminal justice system."Is this not evidence of the existence of a rape culture in the US? Look at the way CNN covered the outcome of this trial. Look at the comments here and elsewhere. What does that indicate to these people who are so offended by the term rape culture and applying it to the entire country? To me, it indicates that the US needs to get its farking act together as a culture when it comes to confronting sexual predation. This seems pretty simple to me.
 
2013-03-18 09:51:45 AM  

ginandbacon: To me, it indicates that the US needs to get its farking act together as a culture when it comes to confronting sexual predation.


Step One: REPORT IT.

Step Two: REPORT IT.

Step Three: REPORT IT.
 
2013-03-18 09:54:30 AM  
What exactly is the "rape culture"? Personally, I think it's but one aspect of a larger concept which pervades modern society. (Namely, that anything you own is ripe for the plucking, if the case can be made for taking it from you, or if the person coveting it can appeal to a third party's sympathies.) These CNN reporters are a perfect case of this concept in action.
 
2013-03-18 09:54:38 AM  

Biological Ali: serial_crusher: Suppose somebody breaks into your house and steals all your stuff, so you mosey on down to the police station to file a report. Cop starts asking tough questions like "did you leave the door unlocked?", "do you have a dog?", "oh, you forgot to set your alarm system that day?"

What the fark? I've reported missing/stolen property in the past and haven't been asked any of those questions. What earthly reason would there even be for asking something like "Do you have a dog?"


Well, police not doing their job is a real thing.  Sure, lots of times they just tell you they're too busy to go on a wild goose chase for your shiat, and you'd better get over it.  But if they intend on actually investigating, it's relevant to ask questions about how the guy got access to your house.
They'd probably ask about the dog because they want to look at cute photos and comment on how snuggly he looks.
 
2013-03-18 09:55:28 AM  

seadoo2006: Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: I think it only fair you use your real name so the women in your life will know that, should they get drunk with you, they're in for a rape. Because they'll be asking for it, right?

That's just a plain ignorant thing to say. If the guys are indeed rapists, they deserve to be punished. To this point, I've seen no indisputable evidence that they did anything other than have some drunken sex with an equally drunk teen with a history of being a party girl.

Facepalm ... no consent = rape rape.  Are you actually this dense or just willfully ignorant?

Let's be very clear on this ... because I'm sure the next time you're drunk, you wouldn't want some bigger guy having sex with you, right? Or are you okay with someone pounding your ass into submission when drunk?


I was going to respond to PJ myself but I'll just day I couldn't have said it better than you did... Except to add that there are pictures of her being dragged around and they called themselves the rape squad, asshole!!!!
 
2013-03-18 09:56:16 AM  

RobSeace: Ukab the Great: You do believe in the Bible...don't you?

Believe in it? I've actually seen one before!

borg: Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives? Thats what will ruin their lives and any chance of decent employment.

[i.imgur.com image 640x425]


Eh...  we should not be handling criminal prosecution with vengeance in mind.

As deplorable as what these kids did was, well, first:  They are kids.  That is not a sympathetic statement, just fact.  Secondly, things like the Sex Offender registry do in fact ruin lives and, really, once you have that on your record, what are you going to do?  You are practically forced into worse crimes out of sheer self preservation.

Our criminal justice system needs an overhaul.  I don't know what to recommend, and I don't say this out of any sympathy for the perpetrators here, just a sad fact - what we are doing, does not work, and in fact does more harm than good.
 
2013-03-18 09:57:47 AM  

Aegius: They're not asking for it....but.... getting so drunk that you pass out for hours is piss poor judgement.  Whether you get beaten, robbed, raped, I think there is always an issue of self responsibility to protect yourself from getting so inebriated that you can no longer function.  That being said....she would have never even known anything had ever happened to her if someone hadn't tipped her off.


This is so much bullsh*t, just because someone is vulnerable does not mean someone else HAS to take advantage of that vulnerability. These monsters CHOSE to prey upon her vulnerability, they could have just as easily protected her by putting her in a separate bedroom to let her sleep it off, all the while stopping anyone from going in there. What did they CHOOSE to do instead? Rape her.

What f*cking planet are we living on when there are serious arguments put out there such as, "Well she chose to get blackout drunk, guess that means it's rapin' time!"? What the fark?
 
2013-03-18 09:59:04 AM  

kingoomieiii: This is literally the first thing you've said that I agree with.


Kudos to you for having enough time in your life to remember what anybody else on Fark has said.
 
2013-03-18 10:00:41 AM  

LiteWerk: So those sick people feel sorry for the PERPS rather than the victim?  Really??!!  I think they may deserve more jail time than they've been given.  And to be clear, the arrogant, self-entitled little punks brought it upon themselves.  Also, after they get out of jail, I expect them to give every female they encounter for the rest of their sorry lives the utmost respect in every situation, or else hopefully a bunch of bigger guys beats the crap out of them.  Would also hope every young female they encounter refuses to have anything with their disgusting selves.

/they should be shunned for the rest of their lives


Pity is not zero sum.
 
2013-03-18 10:01:19 AM  

notatrollorami: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

Ok am I missing something here? I'll grant you I have given scant attention to this case, but wasn't this a situation wherein two guys fingering a passed out girl? When I read the article I was stunned that it referred to this incident as a brutal gang rape. Now you're comparing this to the Indian incidents. Do I not know something about this case or are there really people who don't grasp the huge divide between fingering a passed out girl and actual violent public bloody gang rape of a screaming woman who later dies from the injuries?

///Glad they got convicted


A lot of people tend to get a little too black-and-white about rape.

Let's say there's a scenario where a girl accepted an invitation from a guy she just met at a party to come hang out with him and 3 of his friends that she also doesn't know at an abandoned warehouse at 1am, and she's raped. You're not allowed to say things like, "This girl lacks so much common sense she's a danger to herself." Because somehow saying that is equivalent to saying, "The rapists did nothing wrong, it was all her fault."
 
2013-03-18 10:02:23 AM  

Mobutu: Our criminal justice system needs an overhaul.


There is no justice in the legals system.
 
2013-03-18 10:03:11 AM  
What horrid people!
 
2013-03-18 10:03:47 AM  

Dragonflew: Seriously? What the fark is with all the female rape apologists lately?


There are woman who have been raised to believe that men will be men and so you shouldn't put yourself in a bad position. True? Not going there. To me rape is rape regardless of what a woman wears or how drunk she is. She says no then NO is the answer.
 
2013-03-18 10:03:49 AM  

hubiestubert: These young men are damn lucky to have gotten off this easy, and not in someplace, like say, Texas, where a judge might have looked askance if the young men happened to have had horrible accidents like falling onto a couple of baseball bats several dozen times, or drowned themselves in their own toilets...


If it was Texas, these boys would never have seen a bit of trouble. High-school football is a religion down there.
The victim's family would be facing constant harrassment and threats, her parents would probably lose their jobs, and their house would "mysteriously" burn down.
 
2013-03-18 10:04:23 AM  
The media just sucks with this story. They over covered the Sandusky story and repeatedly asked if Paterno should've been charged for not reporting things earlier to police. They biatched and moaned about the Football Culture insulating players from punishment. And yet I've only heard one sentence about the Steubenville coach possibly being charged with covering for these players and have heard nothing about the parents who hosted these parties or who will be charged for serving minors. Did the media learn nothing from Penn State?
 
2013-03-18 10:06:43 AM  

browntimmy: notatrollorami: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

Ok am I missing something here? I'll grant you I have given scant attention to this case, but wasn't this a situation wherein two guys fingering a passed out girl? When I read the article I was stunned that it referred to this incident as a brutal gang rape. Now you're comparing this to the Indian incidents. Do I not know something about this case or are there really people who don't grasp the huge divide between fingering a passed out girl and actual violent public bloody gang rape of a screaming woman who later dies from the injuries?

///Glad they got convicted

A lot of people tend to get a little too black-and-white about rape.

Let's say there's a scenario where a girl accepted an invitation from a guy she just met at a party to come hang out with him and 3 of his friends that she also doesn't know at an abandoned warehouse at 1am, and she's raped. You're not allowed to say things like, "This girl lacks so much common sense she's a danger to herself." Because somehow saying that is equivalent to saying, "The rapists did nothing wrong, it was all her fault."


Yes, some thing get a little trigger happy on the whole "stop blaming the victim" mindset, but can you blame them, considering the amount of actual blaming the victim that goes on?
 
2013-03-18 10:07:06 AM  

doglover: ginandbacon: To me, it indicates that the US needs to get its farking act together as a culture when it comes to confronting sexual predation.

Step One: REPORT IT.

Step Two: REPORT IT.

Step Three: REPORT IT.


I wish I'd been together enough to report what happened to me, but it was so terrifying and messed up that I spent ten years not even admitting to myself that I had been raped, and telling myself to just be happy I was alive and hadn't had my name smeared in public (both of my rapists were American Heroes back in '02, and one was married). I *knew* it couldn't have been rape because no one would believe me, for all of the "traditional" victim-blaming reasons.

I really do hope we can strengthen our culture to the point where women and men feel there is a strong enough network of support to report rape. It is going to take a lot of work starting with teaching the very young the value of all human beings.
 
2013-03-18 10:07:51 AM  

ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?


Probably because it's inaccurate and shifts blame to society for the criminal activity of the individual.  What else would I call it? Wholly untrue since it's that same groups mores that prosecuted and convicted these little bastards.
 
2013-03-18 10:08:03 AM  

Jorn the Younger: Yes, some thing people get a


/got a little trigger happy with the "add comment" button
 
2013-03-18 10:10:08 AM  

UnspokenVoice: LiteWerk: So those sick people feel sorry for the PERPS rather than the victim?  Really??!!  I think they may deserve more jail time than they've been given.  And to be clear, the arrogant, self-entitled little punks brought it upon themselves.  Also, after they get out of jail, I expect them to give every female they encounter for the rest of their sorry lives the utmost respect in every situation, or else hopefully a bunch of bigger guys beats the crap out of them.  Would also hope every young female they encounter refuses to have anything with their disgusting selves.

/they should be shunned for the rest of their lives

Is your world so black and white? It is possible to feel sorry for everyone involved you know. I don't feel sorry for any of them but I'm not a very empathetic person and honestly don't care much for my fellow humans so I guess I'm a bad person for not wasting the emotional energy.

Either way, it is possible to have empathy for everyone. It is okay to discuss that empathy even.



I don't feel empathy or sympathy for anyone in TFA.
Decisions have consequence.

1) People should not rape others.
2) People should not get stinking pass out drunk in public.

Either of those choices can and do ruin lives.
 
2013-03-18 10:11:44 AM  

serial_crusher: Well, police not doing their job is a real thing.


Friendly bit of advice - if you want to make some argument about rape reporting, you're better off just saying it outright rather than trying to analogize it to something you clearly haven't had any experience with.

Not that that's a bad thing in and of itself, obviously. I mean, I'm glad you haven't had anything stolen from you and sincerely hope that you never have to report such a thing in the future either.
 
2013-03-18 10:12:10 AM  

T. Dawg: doglover: ginandbacon: To me, it indicates that the US needs to get its farking act together as a culture when it comes to confronting sexual predation.

Step One: REPORT IT.

Step Two: REPORT IT.

Step Three: REPORT IT.

I wish I'd been together enough to report what happened to me, but it was so terrifying and messed up that I spent ten years not even admitting to myself that I had been raped, and telling myself to just be happy I was alive and hadn't had my name smeared in public (both of my rapists were American Heroes back in '02, and one was married). I *knew* it couldn't have been rape because no one would believe me, for all of the "traditional" victim-blaming reasons.

I really do hope we can strengthen our culture to the point where women and men feel there is a strong enough network of support to report rape. It is going to take a lot of work starting with teaching the very young the value of all human beings.


Boudica is a good role model for a young lady.
 
2013-03-18 10:12:25 AM  

Jake Havechek: To: doug from uplandThe poor, innocent, virginal, pure girl in this case just has such bad luck doesn't she?!
She's a female and by definition not able to be accountable for her actions. Is that how it is? It's a question that occurs to me as I have followed this case.
The girl is a disgrace to her family and her community. Tell me how she isn't.
15 posted on Monday, March 18, 2013 2:21:57 AM by

Freepers: a world of compassion


To be fair, it's probably a troll. Most of the freepers are in the "hang'em high and dry" camp.
 
2013-03-18 10:12:44 AM  

Owangotang: Aegius: They're not asking for it....but.... getting so drunk that you pass out for hours is piss poor judgement.  Whether you get beaten, robbed, raped, I think there is always an issue of self responsibility to protect yourself from getting so inebriated that you can no longer function.  That being said....she would have never even known anything had ever happened to her if someone hadn't tipped her off.

This is so much bullsh*t, just because someone is vulnerable does not mean someone else HAS to take advantage of that vulnerability. These monsters CHOSE to prey upon her vulnerability, they could have just as easily protected her by putting her in a separate bedroom to let her sleep it off, all the while stopping anyone from going in there. What did they CHOOSE to do instead? Rape her.

What f*cking planet are we living on when there are serious arguments put out there such as, "Well she chose to get blackout drunk, guess that means it's rapin' time!"? What the fark?


That's not what he's saying and you know it...

It's like parking in the ghetto and leaving your doors unlocked... You can't TRUST the people around you not to act like criminals, and leaving your doors unlocked isn't literally asking to have your stereo stolen, but it is a hell of a lot riskier doing so...

Here's another one for you:

Which is more responsible when faced with the situation
A) Walking near a lion's den wearing armor and wielding a spear?
or
B) Walking near a lion's den with a steak hanging around your neck?

It should be painfully obvious that UNTIL society changes, that women should assume that going to a party with a bunch of horny men is as dangerous as carrying a briefcase full of money in the projects...

We should be teaching men not to rape, and at the same time, we should be teaching girls how to protect themselves, from self defense classes, to just teaching that self defense classes don't mean shiat if you get blackout drunk...

It's simply a safety issue... it's safer to not get so drunk you black out

People can't be trusted... period... no matter what they were taught, people will do evil and inhumane things, and to trust people is stupid and you should know better....
 
2013-03-18 10:13:16 AM  

Mobutu: RobSeace: Ukab the Great: You do believe in the Bible...don't you?

Believe in it? I've actually seen one before!

borg: Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives? Thats what will ruin their lives and any chance of decent employment.

[i.imgur.com image 640x425]

Eh...  we should not be handling criminal prosecution with vengeance in mind.

As deplorable as what these kids did was, well, first:  They are kids.  That is not a sympathetic statement, just fact.  Secondly, things like the Sex Offender registry do in fact ruin lives and, really, once you have that on your record, what are you going to do?  You are practically forced into worse crimes out of sheer self preservation.

Our criminal justice system needs an overhaul.  I don't know what to recommend, and I don't say this out of any sympathy for the perpetrators here, just a sad fact - what we are doing, does not work, and in fact does more harm than good.


The very last thing that the justice system needs is an "overhaul" by some ideologue or ideologues who are upset because it has yielded a result they don't like. Our justice system is the result of the gradual evolution of centuries of legal and social precedent - and any good changes that come will be slow, cautious, and incremental. The idea that there is something out there that will "work" when one is dealing with psychopaths and sociopaths (which most violent criminals are) is not one that appears to have much evidence to support it. It may not exist. Either way, some radical "overhaul" of 5000 years of precedent is not going to fix it overnight.
 
2013-03-18 10:13:25 AM  

Wolf_Blitzer: Prison education and work placement programs have been shown to drive down repeat offenses; I doubt the same can be said for giving inmates fridges and TVs.


I doubt it too, but if it were to be empirically proven to make a difference, I wouldn't deny inmates those devices just because it could subjectively feel like "coddling" them.

A prisoner who is expected to prepare their own food and who is keeping up with culture might be easier to re-integrate into society than one who is issued three trays of slop per day and has a library of third-hand paperbacks for entertainment.
 
2013-03-18 10:15:56 AM  

T. Dawg: doglover: ginandbacon: To me, it indicates that the US needs to get its farking act together as a culture when it comes to confronting sexual predation.

Step One: REPORT IT.

Step Two: REPORT IT.

Step Three: REPORT IT.

I wish I'd been together enough to report what happened to me, but it was so terrifying and messed up that I spent ten years not even admitting to myself that I had been raped, and telling myself to just be happy I was alive and hadn't had my name smeared in public (both of my rapists were American Heroes back in '02, and one was married). I *knew* it couldn't have been rape because no one would believe me, for all of the "traditional" victim-blaming reasons.

I really do hope we can strengthen our culture to the point where women and men feel there is a strong enough network of support to report rape. It is going to take a lot of work starting with teaching the very young the value of all human beings.


Your story was just soul crushing. My heart goes out to you.
 
2013-03-18 10:16:25 AM  

cman: How does one teach others not to rape?

I hate to say this, but rape is part of humanity. It is an aspect of the animal kingdom as well. Even though we are an enlightened species we still have those who either dont care about others or those who have no self control. How do you teach ag ...


Rape does not have to be part of humanity.  We might have urges, but we do not have to act on them.  It is possible for anyone to exercise self-control.
 
2013-03-18 10:17:57 AM  

doglover: ginandbacon: Only 36 percent of rapes, 34 percent of attempted rapes, and 26 percent of sexual assaults were reported.

If they weren't reported, how do they know about them?

Also, you're making a mistake buying into the PR of a "justice" system. We do not a justice system. We have a legal system, and honestly it's been my experience you're right not to trust it. I've rarely seen it do anything but harm.

That said, it's what we do have and occasionally that harm falls on the right targets. If you can prove you're raped you're not gonna find a more helpful collection of harmers to do your dirty work for you than the police. Rapists are the favorite target of EVERY branch of law enforcement. They hates 'em more than normal people.


I have had my finger hovering over the Ignore button after many of your posts. But mainly you seem to me to be ignorant rather than malicious.

The NIJ estimates unreported crime in the following way, and any errors will be fairly constant accross all estimates:

The Nation's Two Crime Measures

BJS's National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS)- reported and unreported crime from the victim's perspective.FBI's Uniform Crime Reports (UCR) - crimes reported by law enforcementLike many other indicators used to assess conditions in the United States, these two indicators of crime complement each other to produce a more comprehensive portrait of the Nation's crime problem.

Some of the differences between UCR and NCVS are -


UCRNCVSGeographic coverageNational & State estimates, local agency reportsNational estimatesCollection methodReports by law enforcement to the FBI on a monthly basisSurvey of as many as 77,200 households and 134,000 individuals age 12 or older.MeasuresIndex crimes* reported by law enforcementReported and unreported crime; details about the crimes, victims, and offenders
Many victims of sexual assault are treated horribly by LE and most of us know that. It is bad enough that I would have to think long and hard before reporting a rape. We also know what happens to the victims of sex crimes who do report. They are often ostracized if not worse for coming forward. Most of the time, they know their attacker and will likely be attacked again by others in their social circle. Often, they are attacked by their own families.

I find your attitude quite callous and frankly to be the sort of misinformation and victim blaming that is exactly part of what allows rape culture to continue.

Again, I do not question your sincerity or care about this issue, but I have been offended by your remarks and unwillingness to educate yourself. You might want to take a few days to read up on the issue and come back to future conversations with a slightly more nuanced and realistic view of the topic.
 
2013-03-18 10:18:07 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: One of these two did distribute a nude picture of the girl, so the child porn charge is warranted.


Of all the charges, I would say this is actually the only one not deserved.  If you are 16 and take a picture of another 16 year old and pass it around you may be dumb and irresponsible, but you are not distributing child porn; you are distributing pictures of someone in your fellow age group.  There is a world of difference between that and some 50 year old seeding his stash of photos on TOR.
 
2013-03-18 10:18:19 AM  

Genevieve Marie: cman: How does one teach others not to rape?

Well, for starters, we teach them to view other people as fully human. We don't teach young men that women are stupid, annoying, nags that only exist to be farked.

We also teach all young people a real idea of sexual consent. That sex is a healthy, positive thing as long as appropriate health precautions are taken and as long as both parties enthusiastically consent.


Last point rules out marital sex, I see :)
 
2013-03-18 10:20:10 AM  
doglover:
Step One: REPORT IT.
Step Two: REPORT IT.
Step Three: REPORT IT.


Step Zero:  Establish a credible justice system where people who report sexual assaults are treated with due respect and dignity, instead of often being subjected to further psychological trauma.
 
2013-03-18 10:20:48 AM  
So, you are all forgetting the real victims in this case...CNN and their troop of empathetic talking heads who are now being told that they were wrong.
 
2013-03-18 10:21:22 AM  

poot_rootbeer: Wolf_Blitzer: Prison education and work placement programs have been shown to drive down repeat offenses; I doubt the same can be said for giving inmates fridges and TVs.

I doubt it too, but if it were to be empirically proven to make a difference, I wouldn't deny inmates those devices just because it could subjectively feel like "coddling" them.

A prisoner who is expected to prepare their own food and who is keeping up with culture might be easier to re-integrate into society than one who is issued three trays of slop per day and has a library of third-hand paperbacks for entertainment.


Agreed.
 
2013-03-18 10:22:02 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: wickedragon: jso2897: wickedragon: jso2897: Yogimus: stuffstuffstuff

Have you read about Halden prison? Worth a look if you have ten minutes to spare.

I don't have any time to spare on "reading assignments" - if you've something to say, and citation to support it, I'll be happy to listen.

It's a prison that treats the inmates as people, no matter what they've done to deserve prison time. They get a modicrum of freedom, education and worthwhile jobs all the while being given trust and respect from the prison staff.
Even though they take in murderes and rapists violence is unheard of inside the prison walls and recidivism rates seems very low (although the prison is to new to give any sort of accurate reading of such yet). Inmates leave the prison as better people than they were when they went in. Seems like a good thing.

Halden holds 252 Norwegian prisoners at a cost of about $183,000 per inmate per year.  Average cost of federal, state, and local U. S. inmates was about $30,600 each per year in 2007; $74 billion total.  If all of those inmates were in  Halden, it would have cost over $441 billion per year.

Plus the cost of building 10,000 Haldens:  $22.5 billion up front.

"A cell includes amenities such as a television, a refrigerator, unbarred vertical windows that let in more light, and designer furniture. Prisoners share kitchens and living rooms every 10-12 cells, jogging trails, and a sound studio."

So no, it would not be a good thing.


You're thinking short term. If the U.S. managed to get a recidivism rate equal to the Norwegian prison system the number of prisoners would drop by at least 25% (Recidivism being 20% in Norway and 60% in the U.S) as the first cycle of inmates leaves prison.
This would also mean that crime drops by 25%.
"The Aggregate Burden of Crime" published in 1999 in Journal of Law and Economic pegged the annual cost of crime at 1.7 Trillion dollars, meaning that a 25% drop would save 425 billion dollars annually, before adjusting from 15 years of inflation.
That means that you save every penny by building and running the 10000 Haldens, AND fewer people get their loved ones taken away, get raped or has their car stolen.

I think that would be nice.
 
2013-03-18 10:22:07 AM  
While I understand and absolutely agree with the intent, "teaching men to stop raping" sounds like it will be as effective as the "war on drugs".

Our track record isn't very good. Five thousand years of "enlighten" though, and we still haven't figured out how to teach people how to stop stealing, murdering, cheating, abusing, slandering, lying, etc. etc. Why on earth would anyone think that things will be different in this situation?
 
2013-03-18 10:22:14 AM  

ginandbacon: liam76: ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

I think people are objecting to it being broadly applied to the US.

Why shouldn't it be broadly applied to the US? It's a country-wide problem. According to the National Institute of Justice:


"Rape culture" to me implies that actions, like the ones those kids did is accepted by large segments of the population.  That isn;t the case.  Because we have problems with reporting rape doesn't equate to the US being a "rape culture".
 
2013-03-18 10:23:06 AM  

Snowflake Tubbybottom: ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

Probably because it's inaccurate and shifts blame to society for the criminal activity of the individual.  What else would I call it? Wholly untrue since it's that same groups mores that prosecuted and convicted these little bastards.


How is it inaccurate and how does it shift blame? And remember, there were active attempts by many in the community to impede this prosecution. The State Atty. General has convened a grand jury to investigate all 27 of the school's football team.
 
2013-03-18 10:26:57 AM  

browntimmy: Let's say there's a scenario where a girl accepted an invitation from a guy she just met at a party to come hang out with him and 3 of his friends that she also doesn't know at an abandoned warehouse at 1am, and she's raped. You're not allowed to say things like, "This girl lacks so much common sense she's a danger to herself." Because somehow saying that is equivalent to saying, "The rapists did nothing wrong, it was all her fault."


Because women/girls must be on the lookout at ALL TIMES for potential rape situations.
Men have no idea how it is to feel this way all the time.

This morning I ran around LadyBird lake at 5:30.  I decided to forgo my iPod so that I could hear any footsteps behind me.  I am always very aware of my surrounding and my ability to sprint (and just how fast and how far I can sprint) if necessary.

I also did not run 10 miles because the other 3 miles of the loop are deserted at that hour.  I was NOT afraid of being robbed (of my car key and Garmin, the only things I had on me). I was not afraid of being jumped and beat up by a roving gang of hooligans.
And you bet you ass if I was attacked raped folks would be saying, "What was she doing running in the dark."  "What was she wearing?" "Why was she alone."

I sincerely doubt any man who I saw running on that same loop had ANY concern about his safety beyond tripping over a root and busting his own ass.

This is simply the situation in this country.

Yet, many people don't want to admit that we have a rape culture and want to get offended by the phrase.  But our culture teaches us (both men and women) that gals must be on the lookout at ALL TIMES for potential rape situations.

That's not "culture"?  Bullshiat.
 
2013-03-18 10:27:57 AM  

hubiestubert: These young men are damn lucky to have gotten off this easy, and not in someplace, like say, Texas, where a judge might have looked askance if the young men happened to have had horrible accidents like falling onto a couple of baseball bats several dozen times, or drowned themselves in their own toilets...


Oh, I seriously doubt that. In Texas, high school football is King, and the players are venerated. I think they would have fared far better in a Texas court, perhaps having to apologize and maybe do community service.
 
2013-03-18 10:29:24 AM  

StrangeQ: If you are 16 and take a picture of another 16 year old and pass it around you may be dumb and irresponsible, but you are not distributing child porn; you are distributing pictures of someone in your fellow age group.  There is a world of difference between that and some 50 year old seeding his stash of photos on TOR.


How do you think the 50-year-old ends up with pictures of passed-out naked 16-year-olds in the first place?

This isn't the same as statutory rape laws, where the ages of the parties are factored into determining whether there was consent and where there was a power disparity.  No matter how old you are when you produce and distribute sexual content involving minors, once it's out there it's available to every pederast with an internet connection.

(I also think child pornography laws need to differentiate between content with sexual connotations and simple nudity, and between subjects who have reached physical sexual maturity and those who have not, but those are separate issues.)
 
2013-03-18 10:30:53 AM  
Genevieve Marie:
violentsalvation: rynthetyn: most Americans are convinced that we're all fine and dandy.

I completely disagree with that, though I understand your frustration, and I share it as best I can, as a dude. But we have to work together on this, and terms we see like "rape culture" are only a divisive sideshow, IMHO. If we can put that nonsense aside perhaps we can get to addressing the issue.

... how are terms like "rape culture" a divisive sideshow when the issue we're talking about is a culture that blames victims of rape and makes excuses for rapists?


Because he doesn't like having to confront and analyze the dangerously sexist assumptions of his culture, since they're not dangerous to him and he might find he has to change his own attitudes?

The irony is of course that victim-shaming and blaming affects men too, since not only do we have female friends and relatives who we want to stay safe, but men and boys can be victims of sexual assault too at which point they face being belittled and shamed by that same culture.
 
2013-03-18 10:31:50 AM  

poot_rootbeer: Step Zero: Establish a credible justice system where people who report sexual assaults are treated with due respect and dignity, instead of often being subjected to further psychological trauma.


What constituted further psychological trauma? How much of that is just standard legal defense tactics?

Now do you see why even 400 years ago the Bard was criticizing lawyers?
 
2013-03-18 10:32:22 AM  

ginandbacon: Snowflake Tubbybottom: ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

Probably because it's inaccurate and shifts blame to society for the criminal activity of the individual.  What else would I call it? Wholly untrue since it's that same groups mores that prosecuted and convicted these little bastards.

How is it inaccurate and how does it shift blame? And remember, there were active attempts by many in the community to impede this prosecution. The State Atty. General has convened a grand jury to investigate all 27 of the school's football team.


When you say it is the fault of the "culture" you are shifting blame.

There were attempts to cover this up, and people got pissed.  If it was our "culture" nobody would have gotten pissed.
 
2013-03-18 10:32:58 AM  

darkscout: feckingmorons: I don't really watch any of the cable news stations (or broadcast news stations in the US for that matter) save the local cable one. Not that you can see this because you ignore opinions that are not in lockstep with yours.

It's sad that I have to go abroad to get good news channels. When I traveled to Germany and India the BBC was amazing. They actually did reporting. On the world. And I don't think I heard a single word about the Kardashians.


BBC's pretty good in general, but still, they got rolled pretty hard last time they went to Cuba.

No forensic evidence of Castro's civilian massacres, 50 years after the fact, outdoors in a tropical climate?

You don't say.

/those firing squads?
//they BROADCAST them on Cuban TV, back when they were proud of them
 
2013-03-18 10:33:14 AM  

poot_rootbeer: This isn't the same as statutory rape laws, where the ages of the parties are factored into determining whether there was consent and where there was a power disparity.  No matter how old you are when you produce and distribute sexual content involving minors, once it's out there it's available to every pederast with an internet connection.


But does the level of criminal intent scale with the damage done?
Isn't there a difference between murdering someone with a machete and accidentally killing your passenger in a car crash on an unexpectedly slippery road?
I'd say there is a difference between a 16 year old producing a pic of a 16 year old and a 50 year old doing the same, even if the damage done in the two scenarios are equal.
 
2013-03-18 10:36:43 AM  

wickedragon: I'd say there is a difference between a 16 year old producing a pic of a 16 year old and a 50 year old doing the same, even if the damage done in the two scenarios are equal


When the 16 yr old is passed otu drunk I see no difference.
 
2013-03-18 10:38:13 AM  

Owangotang: Aegius: They're not asking for it....but.... getting so drunk that you pass out for hours is piss poor judgement.  Whether you get beaten, robbed, raped, I think there is always an issue of self responsibility to protect yourself from getting so inebriated that you can no longer function.  That being said....she would have never even known anything had ever happened to her if someone hadn't tipped her off.

This is so much bullsh*t, just because someone is vulnerable does not mean someone else HAS to take advantage of that vulnerability. These monsters CHOSE to prey upon her vulnerability, they could have just as easily protected her by putting her in a separate bedroom to let her sleep it off, all the while stopping anyone from going in there. What did they CHOOSE to do instead? Rape her.

What f*cking planet are we living on when there are serious arguments put out there such as, "Well she chose to get blackout drunk, guess that means it's rapin' time!"? What the fark?


That is not remotely what they said. If you're vulnerable nobody HAS to take advantage of you - you got that part correct. However, if you're vulnerable someone MAY take advantage of you, that is reality. Informing people of reality and advising that they stay safe and avoid vulnerable situations is not a bad thing.

Is it blaming the victim? It is. If you go through a dark alley in a high crime area and do so knowingly and you get mugged you aren't at fault but you are an idiot.

I have a daughter. She's made it through her years - all the way to adulthood - without once being raped (fortunately). It's first a matter of statistics, someone has to come out on the winning side. Also important is that she's well aware of what a dangerous situation is and makes the effort to avoid those situations.

If she put herself in a situation where she was vulnerable and was raped would I blame her? Of course not. I would, however, make it a point to wait until she is more emotionally stable and, again, inform her of the need to avoid risky situations if she doesn't want to be a victim.

We can't control the third party. We can only control ourselves. Putting yourself into a risky situation isn't asking to get hurt but it is giving those who would harm you the opportunity to do so.

The idea that this is victim blaming is a disservice and prevents otherwise good advice from being voiced. If you want the cycle to end you have to do something. You can't control the creeps, you can't know who the creeps are all the time, and you can't defend yourself when you're incapacitated.

This is reality, it's not some fantasy and it isn't about blaming anyone other than the offender and advising people to take the precautions necessary to minimize your risk of harm. That you ignorantly jump on them and put words in their mouth is telling... Personal responsibility goes a long ways and while reality is the way that it is you're responsible for avoiding risky situations like the aforementioned alley. The first level of your protection is you.

This in no way absolves the rapists in this case nor does it blame this victim. Instead, let's get something good from this tragedy, let's use this as a cautionary tale and try to keep self preservation in mind. Reality sucks but it is what it is.
 
2013-03-18 10:41:52 AM  
Somebody is really looking hard for something here.  That's what is sick about this.
 
2013-03-18 10:42:56 AM  

trappedspirit: Somebody is really looking hard for something here.  That's what is sick about this.


???
 
2013-03-18 10:43:25 AM  

WhippingBoy: While I understand and absolutely agree with the intent, "teaching men to stop raping" sounds like it will be as effective as the "war on drugs".

Our track record isn't very good. Five thousand years of "enlighten" though, and we still haven't figured out how to teach people how to stop stealing, murdering, cheating, abusing, slandering, lying, etc. etc. Why on earth would anyone think that things will be different in this situation?


I want my kids to think that stealing is wrong and that kindness and loyalty are good values.  That's my job as a parent, and responsible parents should teach their children to think deeply and reason on questions of morality.
 
2013-03-18 10:44:36 AM  

wickedragon: poot_rootbeer: This isn't the same as statutory rape laws, where the ages of the parties are factored into determining whether there was consent and where there was a power disparity.  No matter how old you are when you produce and distribute sexual content involving minors, once it's out there it's available to every pederast with an internet connection.

But does the level of criminal intent scale with the damage done?
Isn't there a difference between murdering someone with a machete and accidentally killing your passenger in a car crash on an unexpectedly slippery road?
I'd say there is a difference between a 16 year old producing a pic of a 16 year old and a 50 year old doing the same, even if the damage done in the two scenarios are equal.


My point is that is a matter of intent, scale and social disparity.  Adults have no business with such images and any willful distribution of them should be punished.  But it makes absolutely no sense to levy the same punishment against someone that produced images from within their own peer group.  A 16 year old doesn't see another 16 year old as a child, they see them as a contemporary and their actions and intents would be based as such.  That is wholly different from the viewpoint of an adult who should clearly see a 16 year old as a juvenile.  An adult distributing images of a juvenile is a completely different thing that an exchange of images between contemporaries.
 
2013-03-18 10:45:16 AM  

Biological Ali: serial_crusher: Well, police not doing their job is a real thing.

Friendly bit of advice - if you want to make some argument about rape reporting, you're better off just saying it outright rather than trying to analogize it to something you clearly haven't had any experience with.

Not that that's a bad thing in and of itself, obviously. I mean, I'm glad you haven't had anything stolen from you and sincerely hope that you never have to report such a thing in the future either.


It's true that I've never been robbed, but the time I had a false alarm the cops asked a lot of that kind of question before going in. (the dog thing was more, "hey your dog doesn't look as rattled as he would if somebody was in the house right now").

I guess it's slightly different since they were asking stuff to assess the situation they were about to walk in, not investigate something that already happened.  Meh.
 
2013-03-18 10:45:41 AM  

ginandbacon: Snowflake Tubbybottom: ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

Probably because it's inaccurate and shifts blame to society for the criminal activity of the individual.  What else would I call it? Wholly untrue since it's that same groups mores that prosecuted and convicted these little bastards.

How is it inaccurate and how does it shift blame? And remember, there were active attempts by many in the community to impede this prosecution. The State Atty. General has convened a grand jury to investigate all 27 of the school's football team.


The actions of one case, or even several, do not reflect the attitudes of the whole.  If it did we would not seek to prosecute the people who do rape and make sure we know who they are and what they did long after their sentence is carried out.  This culture does not condone rape and the evidence is the convicting of the rapists.

So again the term is inaccurate and shifts blame from the person who commits the crime to the rest of us who would do not turn a blind eye.
 
2013-03-18 10:47:13 AM  

UnspokenVoice: Owangotang: Aegius: They're not asking for it....but.... getting so drunk that you pass out for hours is piss poor judgement.  Whether you get beaten, robbed, raped, I think there is always an issue of self responsibility to protect yourself from getting so inebriated that you can no longer function.  That being said....she would have never even known anything had ever happened to her if someone hadn't tipped her off.

This is so much bullsh*t, just because someone is vulnerable does not mean someone else HAS to take advantage of that vulnerability. These monsters CHOSE to prey upon her vulnerability, they could have just as easily protected her by putting her in a separate bedroom to let her sleep it off, all the while stopping anyone from going in there. What did they CHOOSE to do instead? Rape her.

What f*cking planet are we living on when there are serious arguments put out there such as, "Well she chose to get blackout drunk, guess that means it's rapin' time!"? What the fark?

That is not remotely what they said. If you're vulnerable nobody HAS to take advantage of you - you got that part correct. However, if you're vulnerable someone MAY take advantage of you, that is reality. Informing people of reality and advising that they stay safe and avoid vulnerable situations is not a bad thing.

Is it blaming the victim? It is. If you go through a dark alley in a high crime area and do so knowingly and you get mugged you aren't at fault but you are an idiot.

I have a daughter. She's made it through her years - all the way to adulthood - without once being raped (fortunately). It's first a matter of statistics, someone has to come out on the winning side. Also important is that she's well aware of what a dangerous situation is and makes the effort to avoid those situations.

If she put herself in a situation where she was vulnerable and was raped would I blame her? Of course not. I would, however, make it a point to wait until she is more emotionally stable and, ag ...


No.
If you want this to end you need to teach kids right from wrong. I have been to several parties where young (and very pretty) women have gone uncoscious from liquoritis. Do you know how many of those were raped ? None. And I know of at least one sociopath that was present on a few of those parties, and I know at least one incident where he spent an hour getting one of those girls home where her parents could care for her. His parents had done their job right, and psychological illnesses aside he was a decent human being. Kinda depressed, but decent.
You CAN do something about the perps. You can stop them from being perps. You can choose to change your surroundings so that it fits into your moral framework. I for one choose to stand up against sexist idéas even when it's just water cooler jokes. I don't give an aeronautical fecal bun that it might make me the 'bore' at the office (it doesn't), it's the difference between a proper adult and a child where I come from.
 
2013-03-18 10:47:20 AM  

RedT: browntimmy: Let's say there's a scenario where a girl accepted an invitation from a guy she just met at a party to come hang out with him and 3 of his friends that she also doesn't know at an abandoned warehouse at 1am, and she's raped. You're not allowed to say things like, "This girl lacks so much common sense she's a danger to herself." Because somehow saying that is equivalent to saying, "The rapists did nothing wrong, it was all her fault."

Because women/girls must be on the lookout at ALL TIMES for potential rape situations.
Men have no idea how it is to feel this way all the time.

This morning I ran around LadyBird lake at 5:30.  I decided to forgo my iPod so that I could hear any footsteps behind me.  I am always very aware of my surrounding and my ability to sprint (and just how fast and how far I can sprint) if necessary.

I also did not run 10 miles because the other 3 miles of the loop are deserted at that hour.  I was NOT afraid of being robbed (of my car key and Garmin, the only things I had on me). I was not afraid of being jumped and beat up by a roving gang of hooligans.
And you bet you ass if I was attacked raped folks would be saying, "What was she doing running in the dark."  "What was she wearing?" "Why was she alone."

I sincerely doubt any man who I saw running on that same loop had ANY concern about his safety beyond tripping over a root and busting his own ass.

This is simply the situation in this country.

Yet, many people don't want to admit that we have a rape culture and want to get offended by the phrase.  But our culture teaches us (both men and women) that gals must be on the lookout at ALL TIMES for potential rape situations.

That's not "culture"?  Bullshiat.


You're assuming a lot.

I'm a reasonably fit, fairly solid looking man. Thankfully I've never really had to test it, but people have told me that I look like I could "take care of myself" if a physical confrontation were to happen.
The concept that I have no concern for my safety when I venture out alone to some relatively isolated spot is complete and utter nonsense. Believe it or not, I consider the same things that you do. If I go running early in the morning, I forego the music so that I'm not surprised by someone jumping out at me. I run on the trail closest to the main highway (instead of the more serene, isolated trail) in order to increase my chances of escape.

Unless you've been one at some point in your life, please don't purport to "know" what it's like to be a man.
 
2013-03-18 10:48:48 AM  

StrangeQ: wickedragon: poot_rootbeer: This isn't the same as statutory rape laws, where the ages of the parties are factored into determining whether there was consent and where there was a power disparity.  No matter how old you are when you produce and distribute sexual content involving minors, once it's out there it's available to every pederast with an internet connection.

But does the level of criminal intent scale with the damage done?
Isn't there a difference between murdering someone with a machete and accidentally killing your passenger in a car crash on an unexpectedly slippery road?
I'd say there is a difference between a 16 year old producing a pic of a 16 year old and a 50 year old doing the same, even if the damage done in the two scenarios are equal.

My point is that is a matter of intent, scale and social disparity.  Adults have no business with such images and any willful distribution of them should be punished.  But it makes absolutely no sense to levy the same punishment against someone that produced images from within their own peer group.  A 16 year old doesn't see another 16 year old as a child, they see them as a contemporary and their actions and intents would be based as such.  That is wholly different from the viewpoint of an adult who should clearly see a 16 year old as a juvenile.  An adult distributing images of a juvenile is a completely different thing that an exchange of images between contemporaries.


Then we agree completely :)
 
2013-03-18 10:50:04 AM  

CeroX: It's like parking in the ghetto and leaving your doors unlocked... You can't TRUST the people around you not to act like criminals, and leaving your doors unlocked isn't literally asking to have your stereo stolen, but it is a hell of a lot riskier doing so...


The difference is that people are actually interested in dealing with the SOURCE of the crime (theft), not just learning how to avoid being a victim of it.

The second a woman goes on Fox News and makes the equivalent argument for rape, she gets racist death threats.

"Fire prevention" means fireproofing- making sure fires can't start.
"Rape prevention" has nothing to do with 'prevention'. It means being able to STOP AN ATTEMPTED RAPE IN PROGRESS. Because "boys will be boys".
 
2013-03-18 10:51:25 AM  

Galileo's Daughter: WhippingBoy: While I understand and absolutely agree with the intent, "teaching men to stop raping" sounds like it will be as effective as the "war on drugs".

Our track record isn't very good. Five thousand years of "enlighten" though, and we still haven't figured out how to teach people how to stop stealing, murdering, cheating, abusing, slandering, lying, etc. etc. Why on earth would anyone think that things will be different in this situation?

I want my kids to think that stealing is wrong and that kindness and loyalty are good values.  That's my job as a parent, and responsible parents should teach their children to think deeply and reason on questions of morality.


Of course. And most people (MEN included) do teach their children these things. But how do you force irresponsible parents to teach their children? How do you teach sociopaths right from wrong?
 
2013-03-18 10:52:12 AM  

seadoo2006: Facepalm ... no consent = rape rape.  Are you actually this dense or just willfully ignorant?


Facepalm is right, and it's because of your failure to grasp what I'm saying. It needs to take a hell of a lot more than a woman saying she was raped before sending people to jail for it.
 
2013-03-18 10:53:59 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: It needs to take a hell of a lot more than a woman saying she was raped before sending people to jail for it.


Ohio requires corroborating evidence in any case of sexual assault.
 
2013-03-18 10:54:28 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: seadoo2006: Facepalm ... no consent = rape rape.  Are you actually this dense or just willfully ignorant?

Facepalm is right, and it's because of your failure to grasp what I'm saying. It needs to take a hell of a lot more than a woman saying she was raped before sending people to jail for it.


What proof do you need PJ? I saw plenty. We're you hoping for video?
 
2013-03-18 10:55:30 AM  
CeroX:

Which is more responsible when faced with the situation
A) Walking near a lion's den wearing armor and wielding a spear?
or
B) Walking near a lion's den with a steak hanging around your neck?


In B, you'd get sympathy, and the lions who attacked you would be put down.
In A, you'd probably be questioned by authorities (at least).
 
2013-03-18 10:57:14 AM  

Snowflake Tubbybottom: If it did we would not seek to prosecute the people who do rape and make sure we know who they are and what they did long after their sentence is carried out.


Most of the time we don't.
 
2013-03-18 10:57:41 AM  

Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/172024/americas-rape-problem-we-refuse -a dmit-there-one#


The thing that's sick about the "rape culture" mentality--not the existence of it, but the insinuation that we have one, is how it's defined.  If our culture condoned rape, these kids wouldn't even be going to juvie.

If anything, the reaction to things like this, and to the Penn State controversy, outline a different but big problem we have.  Did Penn State cover up the horrible things that happened there because the folks at Penn State excuse or even  looooooooooverape?  Did they excuse the Duke bros because rape is awesome?  I don't think so; if anything, all of these are great examples of our jock culture.

Seriously.

Think about it.  Rape culture doesn't explain people who are animal lovers, but got angry because Michael Vick's career was ruined.

People love their bread and circuses more than they love their mothers, wives, and daughters.  It's sick.
 
2013-03-18 10:57:47 AM  

Bontesla: ekdikeo4: I just heard something vaguely disturbing about this.  According to something that was just on a local news story, this girl was raped at "several" parties over the course of several days.  Not to even remotely say that the guys weren't wrong to do what they did, but .. this girl needs some help, too.

There were several parties that spanned a single night. She was no longer in control of herself (couldn't walk or talk) by the second party and was unconscious by the third (two players were dragging her in and out).

There's some speculation that date rapes drugs were used but there girl learned about her own violation from twitter so there was very little chemical evidence left to collect via a drug test.

The boys belonged to you Rape Squad. A name they gave themselves before that night.

It's quite likely that they've raped before. This girl was an outsider and stepped forward.


/This.
 
2013-03-18 10:58:18 AM  

Waxing_Chewbacca: What proof do you need PJ? I saw plenty. We're you hoping for video?


What proof did you see? The tweets, photos and other evidence that made it to the internet were not sent out by these two suspects. The video linked in the thread yesterday of the kid talking about rape and having a dick in her butt was not one of the two guys that were convicted yesterday.

Feel free to provide the evidence against these two and I'll change my opinion if there's proof that they are indeed rapists. Right now it seems that they were convicted for being douche bags and passing around pictures of a naked, drunk, peed on 16 year old. A prosecution witness even testified that one of the suspects stopped any sort of sexual touching of the girl as soon as she passed out. That sure doesn't sound like a rapist to me.
 
2013-03-18 11:00:04 AM  
LOL Holy shiat. It's like half my ignore list has found this thread. The trolls must be out in force today.

The bonus of the ignore list is that it saves a lot of time. So, if I haven't and don't reply then you can probably guess why. It's probably because you're not smart enough to bother with. My policy is to only ignore stupid people and to never ignore people I simply disagree with. (Otherwise, well, how would I learn?)

Anyhow, hopefully there will be some additional charges. Whoever provided the alcohol and place to party needs to see the inside of a jail cell. Any adults who were aware of or helped this, in any way, needs to answer some questions at the very least.

Someone posted a link in here that indicated additional charges may be forthcoming and I'm curious about that. An adult charged with being an accessory to rape is going to do more time than both of these kids do. Given the publicity of this event, I'd not be the least bit surprised to see that levied against the adult who supplied the residence or the alcohol.
 
2013-03-18 11:01:21 AM  

The Muthaship: Popcorn Johnny: It needs to take a hell of a lot more than a woman saying she was raped before sending people to jail for it.

Ohio requires corroborating evidence in any case of sexual assault.


Well, lets see what we know.  They admit to sexual contact, including penetration with their fingers.  They claim consent.  She denies consent.  They post pictures of her in a condition making it impossible (objectively) for her to consent to anything.  So...her word on consent plus their video of her incapable of consent plus their making fun of her condition, on video, that she's like dead.

Pretty open and shut as far as I can see.  They admit she's incapable of consent by her being "dead".  They video her in a condition that makes it clear she's incapable of consent.  They admit to the sexual contact including penetration.  I can't imagine them not being convicted in a criminal setting under these circumstances, much less a juvenile setting.

To claim they are innocent at this point is naive at best.
 
2013-03-18 11:04:14 AM  

I_C_Weener: To claim they are innocent at this point is naive at best.


I agree completely.  But, the poster I was responding to seemed to be under the impression that a person can be convicted of a sexual assault/rape based only on the allegations made by the victim.  I was just letting him know that, at least in Ohio, that's not the case.  Some corroborating evidence of those allegations must be provided.
 
2013-03-18 11:04:15 AM  

WhippingBoy: Unless you've been one at some point in your life, please don't purport to "know" what it's like to be a man.


I had no idea you were afraid of being raped when you are out on an early morning run in a low crime area.

My apologies.
 
2013-03-18 11:05:38 AM  

feckingmorons: penthesilea: [i470.photobucket.com image 500x333]

Shameful.

Contrast that with FoxNews who quotes the mother of the young woman who was criminally assaulted saying "[This crime]does not define who my daughter is. She will persevere, grow and move on."

That is exactly the story that needs to be told. Crime victims, and especially victims of sexual battery, are indeed victims. The criminals are not to be pitied for their poor choices, they are to be imprisoned.

Like Fox News or not (and I don't really watch any of the cable news) that is the right story, not how these two idiots ruined their lives by engaging in criminal sexual battery and other crimes. Screw them.


I agree with you and disagree at the same time. The story that the news should be telling is indeed the one Fox is telling.

At the same time, since this kind of thing does still happen, there needs to be a big bold notice of "if you do this you will ruin your entire life" to hammer it through the skulls of idiots. The hand-wringing Nancy Grace tears are completely inappropriate though.

Perhaps CNN is targeting a dumber audience.

/liberals are the dumber audience
 
2013-03-18 11:05:46 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: What proof do you need PJ? I saw plenty. We're you hoping for video?

What proof did you see? The tweets, photos and other evidence that made it to the internet were not sent out by these two suspects. The video linked in the thread yesterday of the kid talking about rape and having a dick in her butt was not one of the two guys that were convicted yesterday.

Feel free to provide the evidence against these two and I'll change my opinion if there's proof that they are indeed rapists. Right now it seems that they were convicted for being douche bags and passing around pictures of a naked, drunk, peed on 16 year old. A prosecution witness even testified that one of the suspects stopped any sort of sexual touching of the girl as soon as she passed out. That sure doesn't sound like a rapist to me.


So there was NO sex. Didn't happen. She passed out and pics were taken. That's what you believe? I think we can agree she was in no condition to consent which is as good as a NO in my book.
 
2013-03-18 11:07:30 AM  

I_C_Weener: Well, lets see what we know.  They admit to sexual contact, including penetration with their fingers.  They claim consent.  She denies consent.  They post pictures of her in a condition making it impossible (objectively) for her to consent to anything.  So...her word on consent plus their video of her incapable of consent plus their making fun of her condition, on video, that she's like dead.


So you have proof that the sexual contact happened after she was passed out and not before, or that she never gave consent? Also, as I've already said, the video posted was some other kid, not the two guys that were convicted.

You sure seem willing to put all your faith in the testimony of a 16 year old with a drinking problem. Sorry that I need more before condemning these guys as rapists.
 
2013-03-18 11:08:18 AM  

ginandbacon: Snowflake Tubbybottom: If it did we would not seek to prosecute the people who do rape and make sure we know who they are and what they did long after their sentence is carried out.

Most of the time we don't.


And sadly that is where we can blame the most victims; for not reporting.  Along with teaching boys not to rape and respect women we also need to teach our girls that if it ever happens to them it isn't their fault and not to feel stigmatized because of it. The not reporting of rape only tends to lead to more rape.
 
2013-03-18 11:08:59 AM  

RedT: WhippingBoy: Unless you've been one at some point in your life, please don't purport to "know" what it's like to be a man.

I had no idea you were afraid of being raped when you are out on an early morning run in a low crime area.

My apologies.


Don't be an idiot. I was responding to this part of your comment:  I sincerely doubt any man who I saw running on that same loop had ANY concern about his safety beyond tripping over a root and busting his own ass.
 
2013-03-18 11:09:05 AM  

Philbb: Poppy Harlow: "... had such promising futures, star football player, very good students...."

Just as an aside; would they have been talking about these boys ruining their lives if they were not football players? If they had been, perhaps, very good students and members of the school band?

The lack of interest in the victim doesn't surprise me at all. I've known that since the beginning of the Penn State scandal when so people were all broke up over losing a coach and had no sympathy for the alleged victims.


Yeah but in that case the coach wasn't the one raping the kids, so it was a little different. You can argue how much or how little he enabled the guy who was raping the kids, but it seemed like he really just didn't know what to do. His bosses didn't care it was happening and he was too scared to go to the media.
 
2013-03-18 11:09:16 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: I_C_Weener: Well, lets see what we know.  They admit to sexual contact, including penetration with their fingers.  They claim consent.  She denies consent.  They post pictures of her in a condition making it impossible (objectively) for her to consent to anything.  So...her word on consent plus their video of her incapable of consent plus their making fun of her condition, on video, that she's like dead.

So you have proof that the sexual contact happened after she was passed out and not before, or that she never gave consent? Also, as I've already said, the video posted was some other kid, not the two guys that were convicted.

You sure seem willing to put all your faith in the testimony of a 16 year old with a drinking problem. Sorry that I need more before condemning these guys as rapists.


They admitted to contact... Do you think she was in condition to consent?!!! You saw her condition.
 
2013-03-18 11:09:43 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: I_C_Weener: Well, lets see what we know.  They admit to sexual contact, including penetration with their fingers.  They claim consent.  She denies consent.  They post pictures of her in a condition making it impossible (objectively) for her to consent to anything.  So...her word on consent plus their video of her incapable of consent plus their making fun of her condition, on video, that she's like dead.

So you have proof that the sexual contact happened after she was passed out and not before, or that she never gave consent? Also, as I've already said, the video posted was some other kid, not the two guys that were convicted.

You sure seem willing to put all your faith in the testimony of a 16 year old with a drinking problem. Sorry that I need more before condemning these guys as rapists.


As I'm sure they judge was given.
 
2013-03-18 11:11:23 AM  

Typhoid: Bontesla: Yogimus: Bontesla:

You are totally right. Much better to suck it up and move on.

Which isn't anything remotely close to what I said.

We can't demand rape victims come forward if we refuse to protect them. If we blame them for tempting the rapists. If show more sympathize with their attackers than we show with the victims.

We, as a society, are responsible for this.

THIS. Look at what has been said about this poor girl. Seeing what women have to put up with when they accuse, I'm shocked any guy has the balls to say women are to blame if they don't come forward. There's tons of proof in this case, and they barely got a slap on the wrist. And she is STILL treated like she deserved it and the poor young men are ruined for life.

/I couldn't. I was 16. I didn't know him. And I was still terrified to come forward because of crap like this.
//not coming back to this thread because I'm not putting myself through all the "more girls were raped because of you" bull.
///girl from this story said she had one drink. It was likely spiked but there was no proof (boo puns) for trial. But go ahead, call her a drunk whore. Because if she deserved it, then it can't happen to you and yours, right?


This girl's mom has been an advocate for her daughter. Kudos to her.

"The girl's mother also gathered some of the material from social media and brought it to authorities."  http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/13/justice/ohio-steubenville-case/?hpt=us_ c 2

"Lipps added that "as bad as things have been for all of the children involved in this case, they can all change their lives for the better," while the accuser's mother echoed that, saying the case "does not define who my daughter is. She will persevere, grow and move on."

Read more:  http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/17/teens-with-immunity-testify-on-g i rl-intoxication-level-in-ohio-rape-trial/#ixzz2Nu7iGXMh
 
2013-03-18 11:11:35 AM  

GAT_00: bronyaur1: I find it curious that those who defend Fox journalism all of a sudden are outraged about this.

Meh, they have something legitimate to smear CNN with for a change.  Of course, since nobody actually watches CNN, this is really not doing a whole lot, but they like to pretend they matter.


What's really amusing is when people who love CNN and hate Fox hate on Nancy Grace, not knowing that CNN pays Nancy Grace's salary.
 
2013-03-18 11:12:33 AM  

serial_crusher: It's true that I've never been robbed, but the time I had a false alarm the cops asked a lot of that kind of question before going in. (the dog thing was more, "hey your dog doesn't look as rattled as he would if somebody was in the house right now").

I guess it's slightly different since they were asking stuff to assess the situation they were about to walk in, not investigate something that already happened. Meh.


True, the dog thing might make sense if they knew you had a dog beforehand. The point I'm trying to make, though, is that everything you've brought up can be covered by basic questions like "Did you notice any damage or evidence of tampering on locks or windows?" or "Can you tell me who had access to your apartment?" Going out out of the way to ask pointed questions like "Oh, did you forget to lock your door?" doesn't contribute anything to the investigative process - it would just be the cop being a dick.

Moreover, the point brought up by the person you replied to wasn't about questions that are relevant to an investigation, it was about things that serve no purpose other than to say "Well you should have done things differently." Now, maybe it's just because cops in Montreal are just generally more aloof, but they certainly didn't take it upon themselves to lecture me about things like that, aside from telling me that I should report things like this immediately in the future. And even that was for a very specific reason (one of the things that went missing was my passport; missing/stolen official ID documents like that represent their own distinct risks that cops are understandably quite concerned about).
 
2013-03-18 11:12:40 AM  

Snowflake Tubbybottom: hat is where we can blame the most victims


Telling comment, that.
 
2013-03-18 11:12:54 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: I_C_Weener: Well, lets see what we know.  They admit to sexual contact, including penetration with their fingers.  They claim consent.  She denies consent.  They post pictures of her in a condition making it impossible (objectively) for her to consent to anything.  So...her word on consent plus their video of her incapable of consent plus their making fun of her condition, on video, that she's like dead.

So you have proof that the sexual contact happened after she was passed out and not before, or that she never gave consent? Also, as I've already said, the video posted was some other kid, not the two guys that were convicted.

You sure seem willing to put all your faith in the testimony of a 16 year old with a drinking problem. Sorry that I need more before condemning these guys as rapists.


Well, since it was a closed juvenile proceeding, we'll have to wonder.  The benefit of this type of system is that a trained legal expert, we'll call him a judge, got to make the decision under existing law.  But, as I said, from the information we do know, I'd have no problem convicting them.  But I imagine, there was more evidence presented in the trial.
 
2013-03-18 11:12:55 AM  
What kind of parents do these animals have?
 
2013-03-18 11:17:09 AM  

vudukungfu: What kind of parents do these animals have?


Useless ones
 
2013-03-18 11:21:37 AM  

vudukungfu: badhatharry: A big problem is that she was brought to multiple parties and nobody stopped them.

Who supplied the alcohol?
If it had been Ecstasy or heroin, you better believe there would be an all out man hunt to find out where the impairment substances came from.
Not One Word About where the alcohol came from.


I'm hoping Malik cooperates with the police. He did seem sincere in his apology.
 
2013-03-18 11:21:38 AM  

Biological Ali: True, the dog thing might make sense if they knew you had a dog beforehand. The point I'm trying to make, though, is that everything you've brought up can be covered by basic questions like "Did you notice any damage or evidence of tampering on locks or windows?" or "Can you tell me who had access to your apartment?" Going out out of the way to ask pointed questions like "Oh, did you forget to lock your door?" doesn't contribute anything to the investigative process - it would just be the cop being a dick.


So, assholes on the Internet say that kind of thing about rape victims.  They also say that kind of thing about robbery victims.
Do cops say that sort of thing about rape victims?  I've never been involved in a rape investigation, but I'd imagine they'd phrase it as sensitively as the examples you gave about the robbery.

My point is that people are mistaking the necessary questions for pointed ones.  Otherwise they have no reason to fear reporting to the cops.
 
2013-03-18 11:22:42 AM  

kingoomieiii: The difference is that people are actually interested in dealing with the SOURCE of the crime (theft), not just learning how to avoid being a victim of it.


I disagree... How committed to ending poverty and crime in places like ghettos and projects do you really think our government is? Want to know what i hear about it? "They need to stop being lazy and get a hard working job and earn a living instead of being lazy and living off the government tit". Yeah, that sounds real committed to dealing with the SOURCE of crime...

Also, car stereo theft prevention comes from common sense... it doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you're in a neighborhood where every business has steel shutters protecting the windows, that you don't advertise your expensive car stereo and you don't leave your doors unlocked or your keys in the ignition... that's called common sense...

It should be common sense that a girl going to a binge party is entering the ghetto of sexual conduct, and drinking to black out is dangerous and presents an easier opportunity for a rapist to commit rape...

kingoomieiii: The second a woman goes on Fox News and makes the equivalent argument for rape, she gets racist death threats.


I think the same thing would happen if a white person on fox news made an argument for car stereo theft in the projects... but since i don't watch fox news, i wouldn't know

kingoomieiii: Rape prevention" has nothing to do with 'prevention'.



Here's what the first hit on google search for "rape prevention" has as it's nomber 2 bullet point:

"Reducing modifiable risk factors"

which is literally, reduce your risk will help prevent you from being raped... i.e. don't go to a party and get drunk enough to black out... i'm not blaming the victim, the fault lies on the criminal, what i am saying is that if you aren't going to use some basic common sense, then you are just making it easier for crime to occur

i will say it again, we don't live in a crime free utopia, this isn't about "boys will be boys" this is "Hey, Stupid! In case you haven't heard, this world is filled with rapists, and they aren't going to go away over night, so be smart, use some common sense and don't put yourself at risk to become a victim. This includes going to a party packed with horny men, and drink until you black out..."
 
2013-03-18 11:23:03 AM  
sucks for the victim but 16 year old drinking at a party? sounds like she made some bad decisions of her own there too
 
2013-03-18 11:23:45 AM  

ginandbacon: Snowflake Tubbybottom: hat is where we can blame the most victims

Telling comment, that.


Do tell how advocating that increasing the reporting of rape makes me a bad persdon.  I'm anxiously awaiting your enlightened response.
 
2013-03-18 11:25:32 AM  

Hella Fark: sucks for the victim but 16 year old drinking at a party? sounds like she made some bad decisions of her own there too


You are precisely why there is something seriously wrong in this world? How do you live with yourself by blaming the victim?
 
2013-03-18 11:26:34 AM  

theMightyRegeya: our jock culture.

Seriously.

Think about it.  Rape culture doesn't explain people who are animal lovers, but got angry because Michael Vick's career was ruined.

People love their bread and circuses more than they love their mothers, wives, and daughters.  It's sick.


Exactly.  It's not that as a culture we love rape, it's just that as a culture we love our athletes more than we don't love rape.  And jock culture could really almost be extended to just celebrity culture, which would be why people like Chris Brown and Charlie Sheen still have careers.
 
2013-03-18 11:30:26 AM  

Hella Fark: sucks for the victim but 16 year old drinking at a party? sounds like she made some bad decisions of her own there too


Hanging with this crowd and having a drinking problem... Yes. There is personal responsibility issue there. As to being raped she is entirely a victim without an ounce of blame IMO.
 
2013-03-18 11:30:42 AM  

Hella Fark: sucks for the victim but 16 year old drinking at a party? sounds like she made some bad decisions of her own there too


Yeah would have been much better if they had just sat around smoking pot.

/never blacked out while potted up on weed
 
2013-03-18 11:34:29 AM  

kingoomieiii: Also, I liked all the people talking about how this is a "cautionary tale" about using social media. In the old days, athletes beat rape charges by hiding evidence, not posting it online!


If it wasn't for Anon, this case would have been completely buried.
 
2013-03-18 11:34:57 AM  

vudukungfu: What kind of parents do these animals have?


I think it might be more than just the parents. After all, the entire thread is about how three reporters have taken up for these degenerates, excusing their actions, and framing their reports in the context of how the perpetrators are somehow "victimized" by the incredibly light consequences of their own actions. The media is probably more culpable than they are willing to admit. From the graphic depiction of horrible acts, to the objectification and degradation of women, to simple talking points like "rape-rape", they down-play the significance of common human decency and mutual respect. A parent has to pretty much become a dreaded "helicopter parent" to battle the constant assault of such imagery.
 
2013-03-18 11:37:15 AM  

Waxing_Chewbacca: So there was NO sex. Didn't happen. She passed out and pics were taken. That's what you believe? I think we can agree she was in no condition to consent which is as good as a NO in my book.


I never said there was no sex, the guys admitted to finger banging her. What's disputed is whether or not it was consensual. I've seen no proof that it was or wasn't. In a court, lack of proof goes to the defendant each and every time.
 
2013-03-18 11:37:56 AM  

Waxing_Chewbacca: trappedspirit: Somebody is really looking hard for something here.  That's what is sick about this.

???


Nobody is "almost in tears".  They use a still frame of Candy Crowley in mid-speech to make it look like this is almost true and a freaking story about the verdict, which they actually did once, is just plain troll material.
 
2013-03-18 11:38:30 AM  

PiffMan420: kingoomieiii: Also, I liked all the people talking about how this is a "cautionary tale" about using social media. In the old days, athletes beat rape charges by hiding evidence, not posting it online!

If it wasn't for Anon, this case would have been completely buried.


I'm not as familiar with the genesis of Anon's involvement. I was mistaken in my thought that it was social media alone that brought this to a head. Can I get a quick synopsis or is it more involved?
 
2013-03-18 11:41:45 AM  

serial_crusher: Do cops say that sort of thing about rape victims?


Here's a brief passage from Steven Pinker's The Better Angels of Our Nature:

Police often treated rape as a joke, pressing the victim for pornographic details or dismissing her with wisecracks like "Who'd want to rape you?" or "A rape victim is a prostitute who doesn't get paid."

The reason rape is so under-reported isn't just because rape itself is such a traumatizing crime - it's because rape victims have historically been subjected to treatment, even by authorities, that no other victims of any crime have had to face.
 
2013-03-18 11:42:01 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: So there was NO sex. Didn't happen. She passed out and pics were taken. That's what you believe? I think we can agree she was in no condition to consent which is as good as a NO in my book.

I never said there was no sex, the guys admitted to finger banging her. What's disputed is whether or not it was consensual. I've seen no proof that it was or wasn't. In a court, lack of proof goes to the defendant each and every time.


You saw pics. You heard stories about her condition!!! She was beyond wasted!!! Do believe she COULD consent? Apparently yes.

Unreal... So it's not violent and its consensual if she doesn't move and can barely speak due to alcohol. You're a sick fark.
 
2013-03-18 11:44:10 AM  

trappedspirit: Waxing_Chewbacca: trappedspirit: Somebody is really looking hard for something here.  That's what is sick about this.

???

Nobody is "almost in tears".  They use a still frame of Candy Crowley in mid-speech to make it look like this is almost true and a freaking story about the verdict, which they actually did once, is just plain troll material.


Ah... K. Didn't get where you were coming from.
 
2013-03-18 11:44:59 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: So there was NO sex. Didn't happen. She passed out and pics were taken. That's what you believe? I think we can agree she was in no condition to consent which is as good as a NO in my book.

I never said there was no sex, the guys admitted to finger banging her. What's disputed is whether or not it was consensual. I've seen no proof that it was or wasn't. In a court, lack of proof goes to the defendant each and every time.


The law says, pretty clearly, that consent cannot be given if you are under the influence of alcohol. You MUST be sober under Ohio law to give sexual consent.

Also, if you're passed out on the ground with people joking that you're "dead", you cannot give consent.

This isn't that hard to understand.
 
2013-03-18 11:45:49 AM  

Waxing_Chewbacca: You saw pics. You heard stories about her condition!!! She was beyond wasted!!! Do believe she COULD consent? Apparently yes.


At what point of the evening were those pics taken? Her friend testified that she had been drinking and willingly left with the two guys. You want us to believe that she was all Weekend at Bernied and being dragged around from party to party or something.

You seem to think it's impossible that she could have gave consent and that's just not true.
 
2013-03-18 11:47:07 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: You saw pics. You heard stories about her condition!!! She was beyond wasted!!! Do believe she COULD consent? Apparently yes.

At what point of the evening were those pics taken? Her friend testified that she had been drinking and willingly left with the two guys. You want us to believe that she was all Weekend at Bernied and being dragged around from party to party or something.

You seem to think it's impossible that she could have gave consent and that's just not true.


YOU CANNOT GIVE LEGAL CONSENT IN OHIO IF YOU ARE NOT 100% SOBER.

/END OF GOD DAMN STORY ...
 
2013-03-18 11:48:46 AM  

seadoo2006: YOU CANNOT GIVE LEGAL CONSENT IN OHIO IF YOU ARE NOT 100% SOBER.


So ever woman that has a drink and then has sex has the right to claim rape if they so choose? Bullshiat!
 
2013-03-18 11:48:54 AM  

Waxing_Chewbacca: Hella Fark: sucks for the victim but 16 year old drinking at a party? sounds like she made some bad decisions of her own there too

Hanging with this crowd and having a drinking problem... Yes. There is personal responsibility issue there. As to being raped she is entirely a victim without an ounce of blame IMO.


He didn't say he blamed her. He said she made some bad decisions, and she did. All of us have made bad decisions that we might have had to face consequences for, even if we shouldn't have to face consequences.

The point isn't that she shouldn't have been raped. She shouldn't. In a crime-free utopia, she could get black-out drunk any time she wants and not have to worry about being raped.

The point is that rape will occur and sometimes we don't have an recourse for the victim. This time, she got lucky because she didn't lose her life, and they were able to punish her rapists. Her best defense is herself, and she needs to be cautious. I'm not saying that would have 100% prevented it, but it would have made it harder for her to end up in the position where she was easily taken advantage of by those people. Completely letting her guard down and not having anyone there to make sure she was safe was a mistake. The kids who took her vulnerability as an excuse to do whatever they wanted committed a crime.

These boys are getting off pretty easy, honestly. I feel bad for the victim. My only hope is that more people are held responsible for the part they played in this mess and that the victim finds the strength through this ordeal to learn from her mistake. Hopefully she can party responsibly in the future. Unfortunately, nothing she does will ever completely erase the threat of rape, and that is the saddest part in all of this.
 
2013-03-18 11:50:19 AM  

StrangeQ: theMightyRegeya: our jock culture.

Seriously.

Think about it.  Rape culture doesn't explain people who are animal lovers, but got angry because Michael Vick's career was ruined.

People love their bread and circuses more than they love their mothers, wives, and daughters.  It's sick.

Exactly.  It's not that as a culture we love rape, it's just that as a culture we love our athletes more than we don't love rape.  And jock culture could really almost be extended to just celebrity culture, which would be why people like Chris Brown and Charlie Sheen still have careers.


Good point.  We sure love our celebrities, don't we?
 
2013-03-18 11:53:02 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: seadoo2006: YOU CANNOT GIVE LEGAL CONSENT IN OHIO IF YOU ARE NOT 100% SOBER.

So ever woman that has a drink and then has sex has the right to claim rape if they so choose? Bullshiat!


Yes, under the law, you abstain from sex if you're not absolutely sure she's given you legal consent and yes, under the law in almost every state, you CANNOT give legal consent if you've been drinking.

Don't stick your dick in drunk ... not that hard to figure out.
 
2013-03-18 11:54:37 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: You saw pics. You heard stories about her condition!!! She was beyond wasted!!! Do believe she COULD consent? Apparently yes.

At what point of the evening were those pics taken? Her friend testified that she had been drinking and willingly left with the two guys. You want us to believe that she was all Weekend at Bernied and being dragged around from party to party or something.

You seem to think it's impossible that she could have gave consent and that's just not true.


You are either beyond obtuse or working on your own defense.
 
2013-03-18 11:55:02 AM  

feckingmorons: I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.


Seems to me that they're getting punished for being stupid enough to videotape it and post it. They would have gotten away with it otherwise.
 
2013-03-18 11:55:52 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: You saw pics. You heard stories about her condition!!! She was beyond wasted!!! Do believe she COULD consent? Apparently yes.

At what point of the evening were those pics taken? Her friend testified that she had been drinking and willingly left with the two guys. You want us to believe that she was all Weekend at Bernied and being dragged around from party to party or something.

You seem to think it's impossible that she could have gave consent and that's just not true.


You seem to have some knowledge that no one outside that courtroom has.  When did the "fingerbanging" in your terms (that wasn't penetration per one of your earlier comments) occur relative to the incapacitation?

Assuming that you are trying to equate what we know publicly with what was presented as evidence in the courtroom, then you clearly understand that we might not know the entire story.  We do know it comes down to consent.  And in the pictures and video we have, she clearly is beyond consent.  I assume you agree with that, right?

So, your entire case, now in this thread, has been whittled down to when the penetration occurred relative to the incapacitation.  An absolutely relevant issue.   So, what information do you have?

I admit, I don't have any specific info on timing.  But I'm not willing to believe these boys who took these pics, posted them online, and took her drunk and passed out (to the point they refer to her as "dead"), and whom refer to themselves as some sort of Rape Gang, are somehow innocent by timing.  What they participated in that we can see on video is reprehensible, and consistent with the behavior to which they are accused.

Furthermore, at no time have I hear them argue that timing was key...only that she consented.  So, it may be possible that you are creating a defense that the accused (now convicted) aren't even relying upon.  Or did I miss that specific defense that she consented early on in the evening and the sex happened then, then she got so drunk that they had to Weekend at Bernie's her to the other parties where they thought pictures and video was a good idea to top off the romantic evening?

Your looking for any excuse here for their innocence strains credulity.  Unless you are privy to anything other than "just asking questions".
 
2013-03-18 11:57:19 AM  

Celerian: Waxing_Chewbacca: Hella Fark: sucks for the victim but 16 year old drinking at a party? sounds like she made some bad decisions of her own there too

Hanging with this crowd and having a drinking problem... Yes. There is personal responsibility issue there. As to being raped she is entirely a victim without an ounce of blame IMO.

He didn't say he blamed her. He said she made some bad decisions, and she did. All of us have made bad decisions that we might have had to face consequences for, even if we shouldn't have to face consequences.

The point isn't that she shouldn't have been raped. She shouldn't. In a crime-free utopia, she could get black-out drunk any time she wants and not have to worry about being raped.

The point is that rape will occur and sometimes we don't have an recourse for the victim. This time, she got lucky because she didn't lose her life, and they were able to punish her rapists. Her best defense is herself, and she needs to be cautious. I'm not saying that would have 100% prevented it, but it would have made it harder for her to end up in the position where she was easily taken advantage of by those people. Completely letting her guard down and not having anyone there to make sure she was safe was a mistake. The kids who took her vulnerability as an excuse to do whatever they wanted committed a crime.

These boys are getting off pretty easy, honestly. I feel bad for the victim. My only hope is that more people are held responsible for the part they played in this mess and that the victim finds the strength through this ordeal to learn from her mistake. Hopefully she can party responsibly in the future. Unfortunately, nothing she does will ever completely erase the threat of rape, and that is the saddest part in all of this.


I wasn't disagreeing. I was pointing out that while bad decisions were made she has no responsibility as to the rape itself. No woman ever does. It is a heinous crime. I think we're on the same page here.
 
2013-03-18 11:58:06 AM  
Ugh, any sympathy for these two douchebags makes me sick. Kids will drink until they get ossified. The girl was way too inebriated to say either yes or no if she wanted to be banged. I bet these two douchetards have always been told they were "special" and thus they think they can do whatever the fark they want. Now they know they can't. Good. Spoilted narcissistic bastards. Maybe someone will rape them in their new home.
 
2013-03-18 11:59:09 AM  

Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: feckingmorons: I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.

Seems to me that they're getting punished for being stupid enough to videotape it and post it. They would have gotten away with it otherwise.


Seems to me they're getting punished for raping a girl
 
2013-03-18 11:59:41 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: So ever woman that has a drink and then has sex has the right to claim rape if they so choose? Bullshiat!



Any woman can claim rape at any time. She can claim rape on a man who she's never even been in the same room with and wreck his year faster than a cancer diagnosis. The good news is that other than a handful of lunatics, this is exceedingly rare. Rape being underreported is a far more frequent problem than women falsely accusing men of it. That's where we should be placing our attention. A good first step would be not to automatically assume an accuser is some kind of vengeful whack job.
 
2013-03-18 12:00:34 PM  

Waxing_Chewbacca: I wasn't disagreeing. I was pointing out that while bad decisions were made she has no responsibility as to the rape itself. No woman ever does. It is a heinous crime. I think we're on the same page here.


Yeah, it appears that way. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
 
2013-03-18 12:00:37 PM  

bigworld: Good luck getting a respectable job or girlfriend down the road, fellas.


So, stick with the football career plan?
 
2013-03-18 12:00:45 PM  

Celerian: He didn't say he blamed her. He said she made some bad decisions, and she did. All of us have made bad decisions that we might have had to face consequences for, even if we shouldn't have to face consequences.


This is a good point.  I left my car out of the garage and unlocked.  Bad decision.  Consequence?  I had my iPhone accessories stolen from the car.  I'm not to blame for the crime, but I could have been more careful and parked it in the garage or locked it.  If I'd done that, the odds of the kids stealing that (and leaving my CDs making me feel old) would have been a lot less.  Still, it was their crime.  Not mine.
 
2013-03-18 12:00:45 PM  

Biological Ali: Here's a brief passage from Steven Pinker's The Better Angels of Our Nature:

Police often treated rape as a joke, pressing the victim for pornographic details or dismissing her with wisecracks like "Who'd want to rape you?" or "A rape victim is a prostitute who doesn't get paid."


Wow, anybody who ever said either of those to a rape victim should be fired on the spot.
 
2013-03-18 12:02:48 PM  

Celerian: Waxing_Chewbacca: I wasn't disagreeing. I was pointing out that while bad decisions were made she has no responsibility as to the rape itself. No woman ever does. It is a heinous crime. I think we're on the same page here.

Yeah, it appears that way. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


No worries. Heated topic is heated. The assholes claiming that she wanted it, consented or were asking for it have the majority of us here on a sort fuse ;)
 
2013-03-18 12:04:03 PM  

Bullseyed: What's really amusing is when people who love CNN


The rest of the sentence is irrelevant. No one loves CNN.
 
2013-03-18 12:04:37 PM  

I_C_Weener: Celerian: He didn't say he blamed her. He said she made some bad decisions, and she did. All of us have made bad decisions that we might have had to face consequences for, even if we shouldn't have to face consequences.

This is a good point.  I left my car out of the garage and unlocked.  Bad decision.  Consequence?  I had my iPhone accessories stolen from the car.  I'm not to blame for the crime, but I could have been more careful and parked it in the garage or locked it.  If I'd done that, the odds of the kids stealing that (and leaving my CDs making me feel old) would have been a lot less.  Still, it was their crime.  Not mine.


This is well put... Better than I and what I meant to say.
 
2013-03-18 12:05:20 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: bigworld: Good luck getting a respectable job or girlfriend down the road, fellas.

So, stick with the football career plan?


Ohio State isn't too discriminating when it comes to football talent.  They will be okay.
 
2013-03-18 12:07:31 PM  

poot_rootbeer: BarkingUnicorn: Halden holds 252 Norwegian prisoners at a cost of about $183,000 per inmate per year.  Average cost of federal, state, and local U. S. inmates was about $30,600 each per year in 2007; $74 billion total.  If all of those inmates were in  Halden, it would have cost over $441 billion per year.

If the Halden model rehabilitates criminals into productive members of society, and US prisons do nothing to limit recidivism and in fact foster an environment of career criminalism*, then what does it matter what their respective costs are.  One works, the other doesn't.

(* don't know if either part of this is proven true)


Norway's recidivism rate at 2 years is 20%, ours is in the 50% range.  Halden took its first inmates in 2010 so I'm pretty sure nothing about it is proven yet.

Nothing is good if you can't afford it.  Look  at the scorn Farkers heap upon mansions, yachts, and Red Lobster.
 
2013-03-18 12:14:10 PM  

Magnanimous_J: The good news is that other than a handful of lunatics, this is exceedingly rare. Rape being underreported is a far more frequent problem than women falsely accusing men of it. That's where we should be placing our attention. A good first step would be not to automatically assume an accuser is some kind of vengeful whack job.


According to FBI stats and other studies, 8% of rape claims are unfounded. So tell me, should we lock all those guys up just to be sure we're not letting a rapist go free, or should we demand that there be proof of a crime?
 
2013-03-18 12:15:34 PM  

serial_crusher: Biological Ali: True, the dog thing might make sense if they knew you had a dog beforehand. The point I'm trying to make, though, is that everything you've brought up can be covered by basic questions like "Did you notice any damage or evidence of tampering on locks or windows?" or "Can you tell me who had access to your apartment?" Going out out of the way to ask pointed questions like "Oh, did you forget to lock your door?" doesn't contribute anything to the investigative process - it would just be the cop being a dick.

So, assholes on the Internet say that kind of thing about rape victims.  They also say that kind of thing about robbery victims.
Do cops say that sort of thing about rape victims?  I've never been involved in a rape investigation, but I'd imagine they'd phrase it as sensitively as the examples you gave about the robbery.

My point is that people are mistaking the necessary questions for pointed ones.  Otherwise they have no reason to fear reporting to the cops.


The rape victims I knew (internship) didn't fear explaining what happened. They feared being accused of making it up, retaliation from their attacker, and the public exposure for their rape.

It was never the police taking down the complaint and we always offered to have a same sex officer present to help calm the victim.

In this particular example - the police seemed to do okay. They weren't the ones making harassing phone calls and online death threats. There's a social stigma we've placed on rape victims.

It's easy for someone to say, "I'm just not the type that would place myself in a situation to be raped. What did you do?"

And should the attacker refuse to plea out and this goes to trial? She better have defensive wounds and biological evidence to establish A). Sexual contact and B). That contact was unwanted. And she better be damned convincing on the stand because there's little hope of winning without a very public testimony about a very intimate and sexual trauma. Her attacker's attorney will also be trying to convince the jury that she wasn't being clear about refusing his advances.
 
2013-03-18 12:16:15 PM  

TV's Vinnie: [i470.photobucket.com image 500x333]

Notice that what gives these Loverboys such a pass by these media cretins is that they were "promising star football players". Like as if that dirty slut destroyed some billionaire a couple of draft picks for his college football racket. Boo farking hoo hoo hoo! Seems this culture really needs a brain enema to flush out this football jock worship they have. Football is NOT everything.


Sadly, that depends on where you live. In many small towns the high school game has better attendance than the churches combined. (And don't think there are a significant number of non-self-identifying Christians in those towns.)

skreened.com
 
2013-03-18 12:21:13 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Magnanimous_J: The good news is that other than a handful of lunatics, this is exceedingly rare. Rape being underreported is a far more frequent problem than women falsely accusing men of it. That's where we should be placing our attention. A good first step would be not to automatically assume an accuser is some kind of vengeful whack job.

According to FBI stats and other studies, 8% of rape claims are unfounded. So tell me, should we lock all those guys up just to be sure we're not letting a rapist go free, or should we demand that there be proof of a crime?


Where you in the courtroom? Did you hear all the evidence? No and no. The judge did and agrees with 90% of us who heard what has been reported. Your crusade to exonerate these two is disturbing. A bit up thread you stated that while she may have been drunk at one point she sobered up and wanted it. farking troglodyte.
 
2013-03-18 12:23:03 PM  
I have a pretty good idea for punishment of rapists.  They have those chastity belt things with a key, basically handcuffs for the offenders genetailia where if he were to become aroused without removing it it would be very painful, plus he woudl not be able to have intercourse with it on.  Convicted of rape, in addition to standard prison time you get one of those, your parole officer gets the key.  You keep it until you are deemed worthy of not being a threat.  Should you encounter a lady/or man that consents to sex, the offender has to call his parole officer to come and verify consent and then remove chastity belt.  Sexual training wheels/ penis house arrest for those who lack the empathy involved in having truly meaningful sex.
 
2013-03-18 12:23:20 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: You saw pics. You heard stories about her condition!!! She was beyond wasted!!! Do believe she COULD consent? Apparently yes.

At what point of the evening were those pics taken? Her friend testified that she had been drinking and willingly left with the two guys. You want us to believe that she was all Weekend at Bernied and being dragged around from party to party or something.

You seem to think it's impossible that she could have gave consent and that's just not true.


See here... Sobered up later and wanted it. As I said.. You're a farking troglodyte
 
2013-03-18 12:29:23 PM  
As a Steubenville native, I want to apologize for my hometown.

Really, really apologize.

Though, honestly, I can see the cultural split that's causing this particular mentality in the area. Steubenville's a steel town, used to even be divided by ethnic lines. The places of worship in the lower city are most telling. The Irish Catholic Church (St. Peter's), the now closed Polish Catholic Church (St Stanislaus'), the Greek orthodox church that I can never remember the name of, the Jewish synagogue. And then there's the Franciscan University of Steubenville, a hub of the charismatic Catholic Church. All of these religious organizations lead to the older generations being fire and brimstone, the middle generation being divided three ways: between hyper religious zealots connected in some way to the University and thus either home schooled or attending the catholic high school (CCHS) with the more moderate families, the moderate families sending their children to either SHS or CCHS, and the rest of the city which contains working families, religious rejectionists, meth heads, drug dealers, and folks who could give a shiat about their kids.

In that mix comes SHS football. The town's only distraction from the downward spiral the region is in at the moment. They're going to protect it, idiotically, since other sports *cough*Swimming*cough* have a better overall record in the past decade or so.

Hmm, I think I over-ranted, I'm shutting up now.
 
2013-03-18 12:30:33 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Magnanimous_J: The good news is that other than a handful of lunatics, this is exceedingly rare. Rape being underreported is a far more frequent problem than women falsely accusing men of it. That's where we should be placing our attention. A good first step would be not to automatically assume an accuser is some kind of vengeful whack job.

According to FBI stats and other studies, 8% of rape claims are unfounded. So tell me, should we lock all those guys up just to be sure we're not letting a rapist go free, or should we demand that there be proof of a crime?



Considering that half of rapes go unreported, it is the much bigger problem. There are no easy answers, as it so often comes down to he said/ she said. In this case, it seems much more cut and dry. Other cases are much trickier.


However, the idea that prisons are filled up with falsely accused men is just not realistic.
 
2013-03-18 12:32:29 PM  

Waxing_Chewbacca: Where you in the courtroom? Did you hear all the evidence? No and no. The judge did and agrees with 90% of us who heard what has been reported. Your crusade to exonerate these two is disturbing. A bit up thread you stated that while she may have been drunk at one point she sobered up and wanted it. farking troglodyte.


I didn't state any such thing, stop blatantly lying and distorting what I said. I said that we have no way of knowing when those pictures were taken in relation to when the sexual contact happened. I guess you're going to continue ignoring testimony that the girl willingly went with the guys and lashed out at one of her friends that tried to stop her from leaving.

Did you hear all the evidence? Do you believe that judges always act on the facts and never on public pressure or their own beliefs?

I've said over and over that I have no way of knowing exactly what happened and would like to see more evidence. You seem fine with labeling them as rapists without having all the facts. You're the one that's farked up in the head, not me.
 
2013-03-18 12:32:55 PM  

HAMMERTOE: A parent has to pretty much become a dreaded "helicopter parent" to battle the constant assault of such imagery.


Well, Mine weren't, but I knew how much trouble I'd be in if something like that was happening and I didn't put a stop to it. Not that I would have needed to stop and think about it. You see that happening, you stop it.
You use the minimal amount of force, but feel free to use up to and including deadly force to stop a rape.
 
2013-03-18 12:33:02 PM  

TheotherMIguy: As a Steubenville native, I want to apologize for my hometown.

Really, really apologize.

Though, honestly, I can see the cultural split that's causing this particular mentality in the area. Steubenville's a steel town, used to even be divided by ethnic lines. The places of worship in the lower city are most telling. The Irish Catholic Church (St. Peter's), the now closed Polish Catholic Church (St Stanislaus'), the Greek orthodox church that I can never remember the name of, the Jewish synagogue. And then there's the Franciscan University of Steubenville, a hub of the charismatic Catholic Church. All of these religious organizations lead to the older generations being fire and brimstone, the middle generation being divided three ways: between hyper religious zealots connected in some way to the University and thus either home schooled or attending the catholic high school (CCHS) with the more moderate families, the moderate families sending their children to either SHS or CCHS, and the rest of the city which contains working families, religious rejectionists, meth heads, drug dealers, and folks who could give a shiat about their kids.

In that mix comes SHS football. The town's only distraction from the downward spiral the region is in at the moment. They're going to protect it, idiotically, since other sports *cough*Swimming*cough* have a better overall record in the past decade or so.

Hmm, I think I over-ranted, I'm shutting up now.


Not an over-rant. I found that interesting actually.
 
2013-03-18 12:35:40 PM  

notatrollorami: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

Ok am I missing something here? I'll grant you I have given scant attention to this case, but wasn't this a situation wherein two guys fingering a passed out girl? When I read the article I was stunned that it referred to this incident as a brutal gang rape. Now you're comparing this to the Indian incidents. Do I not know something about this case or are there really people who don't grasp the huge divide between fingering a passed out girl and actual violent public bloody gang rape of a screaming woman who later dies from the injuries?

///Glad they got convicted


What part of "rape is rape" don't you understand?  "Sexual assault" is just a euphemism for rape.  Every sex offender is a rapist.  Any question put to a victim is cruel and unusual punishment, especially, "How did you become a victim?" Forensic exams are a barrier to uncovering rape because they discourage reporting.

In order to protect  victims and stamp out rape, it is necessary to adopt absurd positions (like this one). I have it on the authority of the most lugubrious Fark  feminists.
 
2013-03-18 12:37:10 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: Where you in the courtroom? Did you hear all the evidence? No and no. The judge did and agrees with 90% of us who heard what has been reported. Your crusade to exonerate these two is disturbing. A bit up thread you stated that while she may have been drunk at one point she sobered up and wanted it. farking troglodyte.

I didn't state any such thing, stop blatantly lying and distorting what I said. I said that we have no way of knowing when those pictures were taken in relation to when the sexual contact happened. I guess you're going to continue ignoring testimony that the girl willingly went with the guys and lashed out at one of her friends that tried to stop her from leaving.

Did you hear all the evidence? Do you believe that judges always act on the facts and never on public pressure or their own beliefs?

I've said over and over that I have no way of knowing exactly what happened and would like to see more evidence. You seem fine with labeling them as rapists without having all the facts. You're the one that's farked up in the head, not me.


See my next post were I quoted you. "What time was picture taken". "Don't know if she consented". "Willingly went"... Please. She was a mess!

You're working way to hard to find innocence. "Hey... Maybe it was aliens" is next.
 
2013-03-18 12:37:16 PM  

Magnanimous_J: Considering that half of rapes go unreported, it is the much bigger problem. There are no easy answers, as it so often comes down to he said/ she said. In this case, it seems much more cut and dry. Other cases are much trickier.


Well said.  Most cases depend on he said/she said about consent.  Most don't have video evidence showing inability to consent at roughly the same time as the alleged rape.  And it is tough to agree that a system that requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt convict a person solely on the word of one person, the victim.  So, while the system has a worthy goal of requiring the highest of proof, in cases of rape, it gets hard to justify a conviction based on the limited proof.  It doesn't mean that rape didn't occur.  Or that rape isn't bad.  Just that, a system designed to convict only the most clear cut guilty defendants, is not ideal for cases that depend on one witness' testimony. (Rape isn't the only type of case like this, but it is the most emotional lightning rod type of case).
 
2013-03-18 12:37:25 PM  

chocolate covered poop: I have a pretty good idea for punishment of rapists. They have those chastity belt things with a key, basically handcuffs for the offenders genetailia where if he were to become aroused without removing it it would be very painful, plus he woudl not be able to have intercourse with it on. Convicted of rape, in addition to standard prison time you get one of those, your parole officer gets the key


sounds constitutional to me.  Neither cruel nor unusual.  Especially since sexual arousal is strictly voluntary.

What do you do if you have to pee with one of those one?  Go track down your parole officer so he can unlock it?
 
2013-03-18 12:37:33 PM  

Biological Ali: serial_crusher: Suppose somebody breaks into your house and steals all your stuff, so you mosey on down to the police station to file a report. Cop starts asking tough questions like "did you leave the door unlocked?", "do you have a dog?", "oh, you forgot to set your alarm system that day?"

What the fark? I've reported missing/stolen property in the past and haven't been asked any of those questions. What earthly reason would there even be for asking something like "Do you have a dog?"


Target practice.
 
2013-03-18 12:37:38 PM  

cman: I think this is a foot in mouth moment.

If you read it it seems like she is disappointed that they threw their young lives away. She is not saying that the rapists are good people or that they don't deserve what they are about to expect, nor does she say anything bad about the victim or show the victim in any negative light.

TLDR; she could have said it better


Nice try apologizing for the anchors, but the video doesn't back you up, nor does the fact that THEY NEVER MENTIONED THE SUFFERING OF THE VICTIMS.

Imagine a news anchor talking about how the Sandy Hook killer's life was ruined by being shot, but never mentioning any dead children nor teachers. It couldn't happen. No one would be that stupidly insensitive.

But with rape, assholes can be.
 
2013-03-18 12:37:56 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: Where you in the courtroom? Did you hear all the evidence? No and no. The judge did and agrees with 90% of us who heard what has been reported. Your crusade to exonerate these two is disturbing. A bit up thread you stated that while she may have been drunk at one point she sobered up and wanted it. farking troglodyte.

I didn't state any such thing, stop blatantly lying and distorting what I said. I said that we have no way of knowing when those pictures were taken in relation to when the sexual contact happened. I guess you're going to continue ignoring testimony that the girl willingly went with the guys and lashed out at one of her friends that tried to stop her from leaving.

Did you hear all the evidence? Do you believe that judges always act on the facts and never on public pressure or their own beliefs?

I've said over and over that I have no way of knowing exactly what happened and would like to see more evidence. You seem fine with labeling them as rapists without having all the facts. You're the one that's farked up in the head, not me.


Wait - leaving a party with guys equates consent for sexual activity? You're going to have to do better than that. Especially given that party goers openly talked about the girl's rape. Are you suggesting that you have more firsthand knowledge than the party's attendees?

It's also important to note that they went to multiple parties. She had to be escorted out of the first one because she couldn't talk or string together a sentence (according to eye witnesses).
 
2013-03-18 12:39:41 PM  

ginandbacon: liam76: ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

I think people are objecting to it being broadly applied to the US.

What's wrong with it being applied in general to this country?


It contradicts most people's experience and alienates them from your cause.
 
2013-03-18 12:39:48 PM  

Bontesla: Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: Where you in the courtroom? Did you hear all the evidence? No and no. The judge did and agrees with 90% of us who heard what has been reported. Your crusade to exonerate these two is disturbing. A bit up thread you stated that while she may have been drunk at one point she sobered up and wanted it. farking troglodyte.

I didn't state any such thing, stop blatantly lying and distorting what I said. I said that we have no way of knowing when those pictures were taken in relation to when the sexual contact happened. I guess you're going to continue ignoring testimony that the girl willingly went with the guys and lashed out at one of her friends that tried to stop her from leaving.

Did you hear all the evidence? Do you believe that judges always act on the facts and never on public pressure or their own beliefs?

I've said over and over that I have no way of knowing exactly what happened and would like to see more evidence. You seem fine with labeling them as rapists without having all the facts. You're the one that's farked up in the head, not me.

Wait - leaving a party with guys equates consent for sexual activity? You're going to have to do better than that. Especially given that party goers openly talked about the girl's rape. Are you suggesting that you have more firsthand knowledge than the party's attendees?

It's also important to note that they went to multiple parties. She had to be escorted out of the first one because she couldn't talk or string together a sentence (according to eye witnesses).


He finds these facts irrelevant. If she was awake she's consenting apparently.
 
2013-03-18 12:41:20 PM  

vudukungfu: Well, Mine weren't, but I knew how much trouble I'd be in if something like that was happening and I didn't put a stop to it. Not that I would have needed to stop and think about it. You see that happening, you stop it.
You use the minimal amount of force, but feel free to use up to and including deadly force to stop a rape.


Probably the very best argument to live in a "Shall Issue" state.
 
2013-03-18 12:42:47 PM  

Waxing_Chewbacca: Bontesla: Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: Where you in the courtroom? Did you hear all the evidence? No and no. The judge did and agrees with 90% of us who heard what has been reported. Your crusade to exonerate these two is disturbing. A bit up thread you stated that while she may have been drunk at one point she sobered up and wanted it. farking troglodyte.

I didn't state any such thing, stop blatantly lying and distorting what I said. I said that we have no way of knowing when those pictures were taken in relation to when the sexual contact happened. I guess you're going to continue ignoring testimony that the girl willingly went with the guys and lashed out at one of her friends that tried to stop her from leaving.

Did you hear all the evidence? Do you believe that judges always act on the facts and never on public pressure or their own beliefs?

I've said over and over that I have no way of knowing exactly what happened and would like to see more evidence. You seem fine with labeling them as rapists without having all the facts. You're the one that's farked up in the head, not me.

Wait - leaving a party with guys equates consent for sexual activity? You're going to have to do better than that. Especially given that party goers openly talked about the girl's rape. Are you suggesting that you have more firsthand knowledge than the party's attendees?

It's also important to note that they went to multiple parties. She had to be escorted out of the first one because she couldn't talk or string together a sentence (according to eye witnesses).

He finds these facts irrelevant. If she was awake she's consenting apparently.


It's disgusting.
 
2013-03-18 12:43:53 PM  

Tricky Chicken: doglover: Tricky Chicken: Are you comparing rape to various socialist policies? Or were you going for the wealth redistribution idea?

I for one would like to opt out of "rape redistribution" preemptively, just in case.

I don't think it would be an opt out situation.  Wimins have the hoohaa, mens wants the hoohaas.  It is clearly a monopoly.


And women want the cock.  It's odd that they are considered greedy and miserly, but cocksmen are considered generous and philanthropic.
 
2013-03-18 12:46:26 PM  

Bontesla: Waxing_Chewbacca: Bontesla: Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: Where you in the courtroom? Did you hear all the evidence? No and no. The judge did and agrees with 90% of us who heard what has been reported. Your crusade to exonerate these two is disturbing. A bit up thread you stated that while she may have been drunk at one point she sobered up and wanted it. farking troglodyte.

I didn't state any such thing, stop blatantly lying and distorting what I said. I said that we have no way of knowing when those pictures were taken in relation to when the sexual contact happened. I guess you're going to continue ignoring testimony that the girl willingly went with the guys and lashed out at one of her friends that tried to stop her from leaving.

Did you hear all the evidence? Do you believe that judges always act on the facts and never on public pressure or their own beliefs?

I've said over and over that I have no way of knowing exactly what happened and would like to see more evidence. You seem fine with labeling them as rapists without having all the facts. You're the one that's farked up in the head, not me.

Wait - leaving a party with guys equates consent for sexual activity? You're going to have to do better than that. Especially given that party goers openly talked about the girl's rape. Are you suggesting that you have more firsthand knowledge than the party's attendees?

It's also important to note that they went to multiple parties. She had to be escorted out of the first one because she couldn't talk or string together a sentence (according to eye witnesses).

He finds these facts irrelevant. If she was awake she's consenting apparently.

It's disgusting.


His attitude is exactly why so many woman don't come forward. I imagine if it were someone he cared about then some girl he doesn't know, presumably, he'd be less forceful in his opinions.
 
2013-03-18 12:46:31 PM  

doglover: If you can prove you're raped you're not gonna find a more helpful collection of harmers to do your dirty work for you than the police. Rapists are the favorite target of EVERY branch of law enforcement. They hates 'em more than normal people.


Envy?
 
2013-03-18 12:46:50 PM  

WhippingBoy: RedT: WhippingBoy: Unless you've been one at some point in your life, please don't purport to "know" what it's like to be a man.

I had no idea you were afraid of being raped when you are out on an early morning run in a low crime area.

My apologies.

Don't be an idiot. I was responding to this part of your comment:  I sincerely doubt any man who I saw running on that same loop had ANY concern about his safety beyond tripping over a root and busting his own ass.


You don't seem to get it at all.  I had no concern over being jumped and mugged by a roving gang of hoodlums on this otherwise safe trail (as I stated in my original post). I am not paranoid.  This isn't the 'hood at dark.  This isn't a shady unsafe place.  This isn't any place that any reasonable person would be concerned about getting mugged or randomly jumped (and because, runners aren't usually carrying anything valuable), I guess a mentally disturbed person off their meds might be out there, but that isn't my concern.

But like, well pretty much any dark sparsely populated place anywhere a gal goes, she DOES have to be concerned about being raped and to the male population (even you) concern over being a victim of rape is never a blip on your radar (and I'm not saying a man has never been raped, but very few men are ever concerned that they will be raped).  of all the things you are allegedly afraid of when you run in a park at night, all of the women in that very same park ALSO have to be aware of the potential for rape and this is not because it is uncommon.

Women are taught to ALWAYS be aware of that potential, because the potential is always there.  And yes, I am going to make the logical presumption that YOU as a man have no farking clue.
 
2013-03-18 12:52:23 PM  

Waxing_Chewbacca: TheotherMIguy: As a Steubenville native, I want to apologize for my hometown.

Really, really apologize.

Though, honestly, I can see the cultural split that's causing this particular mentality in the area. Steubenville's a steel town, used to even be divided by ethnic lines. The places of worship in the lower city are most telling. The Irish Catholic Church (St. Peter's), the now closed Polish Catholic Church (St Stanislaus'), the Greek orthodox church that I can never remember the name of, the Jewish synagogue. And then there's the Franciscan University of Steubenville, a hub of the charismatic Catholic Church. All of these religious organizations lead to the older generations being fire and brimstone, the middle generation being divided three ways: between hyper religious zealots connected in some way to the University and thus either home schooled or attending the catholic high school (CCHS) with the more moderate families, the moderate families sending their children to either SHS or CCHS, and the rest of the city which contains working families, religious rejectionists, meth heads, drug dealers, and folks who could give a shiat about their kids.

In that mix comes SHS football. The town's only distraction from the downward spiral the region is in at the moment. They're going to protect it, idiotically, since other sports *cough*Swimming*cough* have a better overall record in the past decade or so.

Hmm, I think I over-ranted, I'm shutting up now.

Not an over-rant. I found that interesting actually.


Same here.
 
2013-03-18 12:53:01 PM  

Waxing_Chewbacca: You're working way to hard to find innocence. "Hey... Maybe it was aliens" is next.


I'm not trying to find innocence at all, merely pointing out that you don't convict people without evidence. If there are photos of the two guys with their fingers up her snatch and her obviously passed out, then they're guilty. Maybe the judge should be making public what evidence exists rather than having a lot of people questioning the validity of his ruling.
 
2013-03-18 12:53:38 PM  
Step One: REPORT IT.
Step Two: REPORT IT.
Step Three: REPORT IT.

Step Zero:  Establish a credible justice system where people who report sexual assaults are treated with due respect and dignity, instead of often being subjected to further psychological trauma.


In any criminal proceeding, the defense is allowed to thoroughly question witnesses, both to search for inconsistencies and to establish credibility or lack of it. This is a basic part of our justice system.
Why do people feel those accusing rape are not subject to this?
 
2013-03-18 12:54:27 PM  
I feel especially sad that there was someone to take a picture of the jocks carrying the passed out girl. This means that witnesses who were capable of preventing this did not.

The jocks willing to rape her were already a lost cause. The people watching this go down earlier in the night should have done something. This easily could have had a different outcome and I can honestly say I would have been willing to take a beating in order to prevent this, at any time in my life, if it even came to that.

More likely they would have moved on to a less vulnerable target if confronted. These stupid boys deserve this.
 
2013-03-18 12:54:52 PM  

RedT: WhippingBoy: RedT: WhippingBoy: Unless you've been one at some point in your life, please don't purport to "know" what it's like to be a man.

I had no idea you were afraid of being raped when you are out on an early morning run in a low crime area.

My apologies.

Don't be an idiot. I was responding to this part of your comment:  I sincerely doubt any man who I saw running on that same loop had ANY concern about his safety beyond tripping over a root and busting his own ass.

You don't seem to get it at all.  I had no concern over being jumped and mugged by a roving gang of hoodlums on this otherwise safe trail (as I stated in my original post). I am not paranoid.  This isn't the 'hood at dark.  This isn't a shady unsafe place.  This isn't any place that any reasonable person would be concerned about getting mugged or randomly jumped (and because, runners aren't usually carrying anything valuable), I guess a mentally disturbed person off their meds might be out there, but that isn't my concern.

But like, well pretty much any dark sparsely populated place anywhere a gal goes, she DOES have to be concerned about being raped and to the male population (even you) concern over being a victim of rape is never a blip on your radar (and I'm not saying a man has never been raped, but very few men are ever concerned that they will be raped).  of all the things you are allegedly afraid of when you run in a park at night, all of the women in that very same park ALSO have to be aware of the potential for rape and this is not because it is uncommon.

Women are taught to ALWAYS be aware of that potential, because the potential is always there.  And yes, I am going to make the logical presumption that YOU as a man have no farking clue.


My apologies. When you said I sincerely doubt any man who I saw running on that same loop had ANY concern about his safety beyond tripping over a root and busting his own ass, I took it to mean that you sincerely doubted that any man who you saw running on that same loop had ANY concern about his safety beyond tripping over a root and busting his own ass. I didn't realize that "ANY concern" meant rape.
 
2013-03-18 12:56:48 PM  

cman: Genevieve Marie:

The idea that men need to be taught not to rape makes people furious, but I mean... watch the video embedded in this link. The young men talking clearly haven't been taught not to rape. They haven't been taught to respect sexual boundaries. And the scary part is they aren't out of the ordinary! These guys remind me of numerous boys I knew in high school and college.

---

How does one teach others not to rape?

I hate to say this, but rape is part of humanity. It is an aspect of the animal kingdom as well. Even though we are an enlightened species we still have those who either dont care about others or those who have no self control. How do you teach against that ...


There are apparently some studies that indicate that rapists think that all men, given an opportunity, would rape. If true, this implies something wrong deep in their core, some lack of empathy not unlike with a sociopath. They can't even wrap their heads around the idea that normal people don't rape.

A few other things to consider.

One of the "sad" things here is that this is not a "classic" case of rape so it seems "sad" that these boys are being punished so "harshly". But studies show that classic rape (where one uses violence on a stranger) are exceedingly rare. Most violent rapes are against people the rapists knows, and most attacks against strangers usually involve drugs or alcohol to make the victim compliant.

So the kind of rape they did is very common as rapes go. However it is the classic one that usually gets prosecuted. Yes, the kind that almost never happens (at least here in the U.S.). Add to that the statistic that about 97% of rapes go unreported.

Consider also that according to at least one study, most rapists start in their late teens. And most of those that do rape are serial rapists.

So, in that context, these two "boys" exactly fit the norms. They are at just the right age and if not caught for what they did would very likely keep going on doing what they were doing. And with such light sentences, they might still.

On the "bright" side, since most rapists are serial rapists this means that it's not a bunch of people where "they be rapin' everybody up in here", but a very small percentage of individuals responsible for most of the trouble.

The silver lining on that is, contrary to what rapists think, most men are decent human beings and would not do anything like that given the chance. Instead, it's a very small percentage that are very, very dangerous.

/yeah, that doesn't sound like much consolation. It isn't. It's bad, this is all bad and very depressing.
//about retched in my mind when the one guy only apologized for sending the pictures.
///well, there went my morning. I had to do a GIS for cute kittens and puppies for 3 minutes before I could even get back to finish my post. It wasn't enough.
 
2013-03-18 01:00:14 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Tricky Chicken: doglover: Tricky Chicken: Are you comparing rape to various socialist policies? Or were you going for the wealth redistribution idea?

I for one would like to opt out of "rape redistribution" preemptively, just in case.

I don't think it would be an opt out situation.  Wimins have the hoohaa, mens wants the hoohaas.  It is clearly a monopoly.

And women want the cock.  It's odd that they are considered greedy and miserly, but cocksmen are considered generous and philanthropic.


Actually, I was angling about the "Wealth Redistribution" aspect with my original statement. It all boils down to the Haves and the Have- nots, as it so often does. As was stated by more people than just myself, women have the booty; and are fairly stingy with it, just like the rich people are with their money. Some men are born better off, just like some people are born rich. For them, access to booty (money) is never a problem. As for the "Women want the cock" aspect, this just doesn't work out to be true. For example, in a divorce, the wife has traditionally gotten a share of the husband's money, even if she never worked a day in her life, and had a maid do all the housework. Yet, have you ever heard of one single case where the ex-wife was required to maintain a sex life for her ex-husband comparable to the financial standard of living he is required to provide for her? If she didn't work, and had a maid to do all the housework, that was pretty much the context of her "contribution" to the marriage.
 
2013-03-18 01:03:01 PM  

borg: feckingmorons: I have absolutely no sympathy for rapists.

They're lives weren't ruined when they were adjudicated delinquent (in juvenile court that is tantamount to a guilty verdict), their lives were ruined when they decided to be rapists.

They'll be in detention for a year or at most until they are 21.

Big fecking deal.

Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives?  Thats what will ruin their lives and any chance of decent employment.


i0.kym-cdn.com
 
2013-03-18 01:06:15 PM  

Genevieve Marie: cman: How does one teach others not to rape?

Well, for starters, we teach them to view other people as fully human. We don't teach young men that women are stupid, annoying, nags that only exist to be farked.

We also teach all young people a real idea of sexual consent. That sex is a healthy, positive thing as long as appropriate health precautions are taken and as long as both parties enthusiastically consent. We teach teenagers that sex isn't something that makes a boy a man and makes a woman a whore- we teach them that sex is something positive when both parties want it and it's gone into willingly and responsibly.



When it's done in infidelity, even.
 
2013-03-18 01:09:13 PM  

StrangeQ: Popcorn Johnny: One of these two did distribute a nude picture of the girl, so the child porn charge is warranted.

Of all the charges, I would say this is actually the only one not deserved.  If you are 16 and take a picture of another 16 year old and pass it around you may be dumb and irresponsible, but you are not distributing child porn; you are distributing pictures of someone in your fellow age group.  There is a world of difference between that and some 50 year old seeding his stash of photos on TOR.


I'm afraid you don't understand why child porn is treated so severely.  It's not a matter of intent or circumstances.  It's a matter of strict liability; the damage is done no matter what your intentions are or who you are.  Those "innocent" images will end up fueling a predator's fantasies and inspiring him to action.  The question, "Got any more like that?" will be asked and new victims will satisfy it.  The victim will suffer permanent and irreparable damage to her privacy and reputation, and every time someone is tried for possessing her image she will be re-traumatized by having to testify and endure cross-examination.

Whether the victim is your ex-girlfriend or a baby you rented on Craigslist doesn't change the harm you've done.  Your age and immaturity may mitigate your punishment, but can't avert your conviction.
 
2013-03-18 01:09:14 PM  

CeroX: It should be common sense that a girl going to a binge party is entering the ghetto of sexual conduct, and drinking to black out is dangerous and presents an easier opportunity for a rapist to commit rape...



I'm seeing a parallel to the gun-nut arguments here. If we just enacted stricter drinking laws this wouldn't have happened. We should make a law that anyone already violating the law by drinking underage, should not be able to drink until black-out drunk.

If only high-capacity beer can magazines were outlawed this wouldn't have occurred. We could artificially limit 12-packs by making it a crime to put more than 10 beers in it.

Fark.com. Changing liberal's positions on gun-contol, one rape thread at a time.
 
2013-03-18 01:10:18 PM  
None of this behavior surprises me. When I was in High School the football team quarterback got his girlfriend pregnant, so he shot her multiple times then turned the gun on himself.

The next day the school held a big ceremony for mourning the quarterback. The entire school was filled with kids and teachers grieving over him with signs and pictures of him all over campus about how sad it was that this had happened to him. Not a single mention of the poor girl he murdered.

That was about the time that my last shred of faith in humanity was cut.
 
2013-03-18 01:13:03 PM  

Esroc: None of this behavior surprises me. When I was in High School the football team quarterback got his girlfriend pregnant, so he shot her multiple times then turned the gun on himself.

The next day the school held a big ceremony for mourning the quarterback. The entire school was filled with kids and teachers grieving over him with signs and pictures of him all over campus about how sad it was that this had happened to him. Not a single mention of the poor girl he murdered.

That was about the time that my last shred of faith in humanity was cut.


Exactly. It's not a "rape culture"
It's Football culture.
 
2013-03-18 01:14:07 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: I'm afraid you don't understand why child porn is treated so severely.


It's a little ridiculous that it's legal to have sex with a 16 year old but it you're caught with a picture of her boobs on your phone, you can go to jail for possessing child porn. Not talking about this case, just in general. The laws should at least be written to take into account the circumstances as to which the person is in possession of the photos. If a stranger has nude pics of a 16 year old, charge them, but don't charge a teenager for having nudes of their 16 year old girlfriend.
 
2013-03-18 01:18:04 PM  

rynthetyn: People weren't exactly fond of her making clear that drunk women can't consent under any circumstance.


Personally I think a really soft use of, "consent," like that is unproductive.  Basically it paints any sexual contact between two people who are both likely too impaired to be 100% on top of their judgement as a potential crime if either one of them decides later that they don't like what happened.

We constantly act like there's something inherently different about a sex act just because its sexual.  If everyone involved was drinking, and had a good-faith reason to think the person they engaged sexually was on-board (like their full and seemingly enthusiastic participation) and everybody was safe, why do we need to frame it like someone did something REALLY wrong just because of what they actually got up to?  Its essentially just two people making a poor decision about their recreational activities.  Really no different from a bunch of drunks deciding to play tackle football at their Superbowl party.

I mean... was Steve REALLY able to consent to being run over by Ronnie and getting his arm broken on that bootleg pass?  I mean yeah he took off his shirt to play for the skins, and he did CATCH that pass right before he got hit, but he was drunk so we should probably arrest Ronnie... Steve wasn't capable of deciding he wanted to play."

If someone was unconscious, disoriented, drugged, threatened or otherwise forced to do something they clearly did not want to (or even that they seemed like they did before they nodded off from drink) I am 100% on-board with saying, "That's non-consenting, you're a rapist."
 
2013-03-18 01:21:50 PM  

Zombalupagus: The silver lining on that is, contrary to what rapists think, most men are decent human beings and would not do anything like that given the chance. Instead, it's a very small percentage that are very, very dangerous.


I think this may be why people are resistant to statements like "we need to teach men not to rape". The implication is that "men" don't already know this and would rape at the first chance if they thought they could get away with it.
 
2013-03-18 01:21:52 PM  

Zombalupagus: Add to that the statistic that about 97% of rapes go unreported.


That figure is challenging for me to believe.
 
2013-03-18 01:22:00 PM  

wickedragon: You're thinking short term. If the U.S. managed to get a recidivism rate equal to the Norwegian prison system the number of prisoners would drop by at least 25% (Recidivism being 20% in Norway and 60% in the U.S) as the first cycle of inmates leaves prison.
This would also mean that crime drops by 25%.
"The Aggregate Burden of Crime" published in 1999 in Journal of Law and Economic pegged the annual cost of crime at 1.7 Trillion dollars, meaning that a 25% drop would save 425 billion dollars annually, before adjusting from 15 years of inflation.
That means that you save every penny by building and running the 10000 Haldens, AND fewer people get their loved ones taken away, get raped or has their car stolen.

I think that would be nice.


Harden opened in 2010; it has contributed nothing to Norway's recidivism rate.

Reducing competition is a good thing for the surviving criminals.

I  can save money by buying a house, but that is not a good thing if I can't afford a down payment or maintenance.  It's a trap.
 
2013-03-18 01:24:43 PM  

Super_pope: rynthetyn: People weren't exactly fond of her making clear that drunk women can't consent under any circumstance.

Personally I think a really soft use of, "consent," like that is unproductive. Basically it paints any sexual contact between two people who are both likely too impaired to be 100% on top of their judgement as a potential crime if either one of them decides later that they don't like what happened.


His teacher was saying it only goes one way.  If the woman is drunk the guy is a rapist, doesn't matter if he is drunk as well.

Those arguments are worthless and distract from real cases of rape.

Super_pope: I mean... was Steve REALLY able to consent to being run over by Ronnie and getting his arm broken on that bootleg pass? I mean yeah he took off his shirt to play for the skins, and he did CATCH that pass right before he got hit, but he was drunk so we should probably arrest Ronnie... Steve wasn't capable of deciding he wanted to play."


Bingo.
 
2013-03-18 01:25:00 PM  

WhippingBoy: RedT: WhippingBoy: RedT: WhippingBoy: Unless you've been one at some point in your life, please don't purport to "know" what it's like to be a man.

I had no idea you were afraid of being raped when you are out on an early morning run in a low crime area.

My apologies.

Don't be an idiot. I was responding to this part of your comment:  I sincerely doubt any man who I saw running on that same loop had ANY concern about his safety beyond tripping over a root and busting his own ass.

You don't seem to get it at all.  I had no concern over being jumped and mugged by a roving gang of hoodlums on this otherwise safe trail (as I stated in my original post). I am not paranoid.  This isn't the 'hood at dark.  This isn't a shady unsafe place.  This isn't any place that any reasonable person would be concerned about getting mugged or randomly jumped (and because, runners aren't usually carrying anything valuable), I guess a mentally disturbed person off their meds might be out there, but that isn't my concern.

But like, well pretty much any dark sparsely populated place anywhere a gal goes, she DOES have to be concerned about being raped and to the male population (even you) concern over being a victim of rape is never a blip on your radar (and I'm not saying a man has never been raped, but very few men are ever concerned that they will be raped).  of all the things you are allegedly afraid of when you run in a park at night, all of the women in that very same park ALSO have to be aware of the potential for rape and this is not because it is uncommon.

Women are taught to ALWAYS be aware of that potential, because the potential is always there.  And yes, I am going to make the logical presumption that YOU as a man have no farking clue.

My apologies. When you said I sincerely doubt any man who I saw running on that same loop had ANY concern about his safety beyond tripping over a root and busting his own ass, I took it to mean that you sincerely doubted that any man who you ...


I have to say that, as a woman, I took her meaning of  "Any concern about his safety" to be equivalent to the statement "Any concern of being raped", as she was talking about rape previously.

That I saw this, and you didn't, only points out how true her statement is...

Also, homophobia can be expressed as the fear that any man could or would treat you the same as you would treat a woman.
 
2013-03-18 01:26:36 PM  

Super_pope: rynthetyn: People weren't exactly fond of her making clear that drunk women can't consent under any circumstance.

Personally I think a really soft use of, "consent," like that is unproductive.  Basically it paints any sexual contact between two people who are both likely too impaired to be 100% on top of their judgement as a potential crime if either one of them decides later that they don't like what happened.

We constantly act like there's something inherently different about a sex act just because its sexual.  If everyone involved was drinking, and had a good-faith reason to think the person they engaged sexually was on-board (like their full and seemingly enthusiastic participation) and everybody was safe, why do we need to frame it like someone did something REALLY wrong just because of what they actually got up to?  Its essentially just two people making a poor decision about their recreational activities.  Really no different from a bunch of drunks deciding to play tackle football at their Superbowl party.

I mean... was Steve REALLY able to consent to being run over by Ronnie and getting his arm broken on that bootleg pass?  I mean yeah he took off his shirt to play for the skins, and he did CATCH that pass right before he got hit, but he was drunk so we should probably arrest Ronnie... Steve wasn't capable of deciding he wanted to play."

If someone was unconscious, disoriented, drugged, threatened or otherwise forced to do something they clearly did not want to (or even that they seemed like they did before they nodded off from drink) I am 100% on-board with saying, "That's non-consenting, you're a rapist."


Yep, according to the "drinking + sex = rape" fark rule then i raped my wife last night while i was handcuffed and blindfolded to the bed... some how i was able to force her to jump on top of me, ride me in reverse cowgirl and then forced her to sit on my face so i could mouth rape her into orgasm... because we both had a significant amount of alcohol for st. patty's day therefore rape
 
2013-03-18 01:26:39 PM  

RedT: browntimmy: Let's say there's a scenario where a girl accepted an invitation from a guy she just met at a party to come hang out with him and 3 of his friends that she also doesn't know at an abandoned warehouse at 1am, and she's raped. You're not allowed to say things like, "This girl lacks so much common sense she's a danger to herself." Because somehow saying that is equivalent to saying, "The rapists did nothing wrong, it was all her fault."

Because women/girls must be on the lookout at ALL TIMES for potential rape situations.
Men have no idea how it is to feel this way all the time.

This morning I ran around LadyBird lake at 5:30.  I decided to forgo my iPod so that I could hear any footsteps behind me.  I am always very aware of my surrounding and my ability to sprint (and just how fast and how far I can sprint) if necessary.

I also did not run 10 miles because the other 3 miles of the loop are deserted at that hour.  I was NOT afraid of being robbed (of my car key and Garmin, the only things I had on me). I was not afraid of being jumped and beat up by a roving gang of hooligans.
And you bet you ass if I was attacked raped folks would be saying, "What was she doing running in the dark."  "What was she wearing?" "Why was she alone."

I sincerely doubt any man who I saw running on that same loop had ANY concern about his safety beyond tripping over a root and busting his own ass.

This is simply the situation in this country.

Yet, many people don't want to admit that we have a rape culture and want to get offended by the phrase.  But our culture teaches us (both men and women) that gals must be on the lookout at ALL TIMES for potential rape situations.

That's not "culture"?  Bullshiat.


Your daydreams are not our culture.  They're not even every woman's daydreams.

I prescribe Zen meditation.
 
2013-03-18 01:29:43 PM  

CeroX: Super_pope: rynthetyn: People weren't exactly fond of her making clear that drunk women can't consent under any circumstance.

Personally I think a really soft use of, "consent," like that is unproductive.  Basically it paints any sexual contact between two people who are both likely too impaired to be 100% on top of their judgement as a potential crime if either one of them decides later that they don't like what happened.

We constantly act like there's something inherently different about a sex act just because its sexual.  If everyone involved was drinking, and had a good-faith reason to think the person they engaged sexually was on-board (like their full and seemingly enthusiastic participation) and everybody was safe, why do we need to frame it like someone did something REALLY wrong just because of what they actually got up to?  Its essentially just two people making a poor decision about their recreational activities.  Really no different from a bunch of drunks deciding to play tackle football at their Superbowl party.

I mean... was Steve REALLY able to consent to being run over by Ronnie and getting his arm broken on that bootleg pass?  I mean yeah he took off his shirt to play for the skins, and he did CATCH that pass right before he got hit, but he was drunk so we should probably arrest Ronnie... Steve wasn't capable of deciding he wanted to play."

If someone was unconscious, disoriented, drugged, threatened or otherwise forced to do something they clearly did not want to (or even that they seemed like they did before they nodded off from drink) I am 100% on-board with saying, "That's non-consenting, you're a rapist."



Yep, according to the "drinking + sex = rape" fark rule then i raped my wife last night while i was handcuffed and blindfolded to the bed... some how i was able to force her to jump on top of me, ride me in reverse cowgirl and then forced her to sit on my face so i could mouth rape her into orgasm... because we both had a significant amou ...



emotibot.net
 
2013-03-18 01:30:33 PM  

WhippingBoy: Zombalupagus: The silver lining on that is, contrary to what rapists think, most men are decent human beings and would not do anything like that given the chance. Instead, it's a very small percentage that are very, very dangerous.

I think this may be why people are resistant to statements like "we need to teach men not to rape". The implication is that "men" don't already know this and would rape at the first chance if they thought they could get away with it.


It doesn't seem like a bad idea to teach your high school son things like: if a girl has been drinking she can't consent to sex, if even after consenting to sex she wants to stop you need to do so immediately, any pictures she gives you shouldn't be shown to anyone else. While these things might be obvious to most adults, teens can be freaking morons sometimes.
 
2013-03-18 01:30:36 PM  

Esroc: None of this behavior surprises me. When I was in High School the football team quarterback got his girlfriend pregnant, so he shot her multiple times then turned the gun on himself.

The next day the school held a big ceremony for mourning the quarterback. The entire school was filled with kids and teachers grieving over him with signs and pictures of him all over campus about how sad it was that this had happened to him. Not a single mention of the poor girl he murdered.

That was about the time that my last shred of faith in humanity was cut.



This is abhorrent.
 
2013-03-18 01:32:57 PM  

Carth: WhippingBoy: Zombalupagus: The silver lining on that is, contrary to what rapists think, most men are decent human beings and would not do anything like that given the chance. Instead, it's a very small percentage that are very, very dangerous.

I think this may be why people are resistant to statements like "we need to teach men not to rape". The implication is that "men" don't already know this and would rape at the first chance if they thought they could get away with it.

It doesn't seem like a bad idea to teach your high school son things like: if a girl has been drinking she can't consent to sex, if even after consenting to sex she wants to stop you need to do so immediately, any pictures she gives you shouldn't be shown to anyone else should be immediately deleted from your phone after you see it. While these things might be obvious to most adults, teens can be freaking morons sometimes.


FTFY
 
2013-03-18 01:33:22 PM  

CeroX: What the fark did i just read here?

Are you retarded or something?



It's no worse than you comparing the risk of binge-drinking, date-rape to the ghetto. "Ghetto" is a politically-correct way of saying "scary black people."

Two privileged, kids in suburban, Steubenville, OH are pretty far removed from the inner-city. Is it because you saw a black person? The point of this case is that no area is immune to it.

Any other invalid comparisons are, as you say....retarded.
 
2013-03-18 01:34:10 PM  

tlars699: I have to say that, as a woman, I took her meaning of  "Any concern about his safety" to be equivalent to the statement "Any concern of being raped", as she was talking about rape previously.

That I saw this, and you didn't, only points out how true her statement is...

Also, homophobia can be expressed as the fear that any man could or would treat you the same as you would treat a woman.


I give up. You're just going to interpret anything that doesn't support your narrow world view however you see fit.
How is it that you're even able to leave the house? The world is full of potential rapists that could strike at any given moment.
 
2013-03-18 01:34:30 PM  

Snowflake Tubbybottom: ginandbacon: Snowflake Tubbybottom: If it did we would not seek to prosecute the people who do rape and make sure we know who they are and what they did long after their sentence is carried out.

Most of the time we don't.

And sadly that is where we can blame the most victims; for not reporting.  Along with teaching boys not to rape and respect women we also need to teach our girls that if it ever happens to them it isn't their fault and not to feel stigmatized because of it. The not reporting of rape only tends to lead to more rape.


Add blame on the recipients of reports for not treating them in an unbiased manner, and on people who tamper with witnesses by telling accusers it is their fault and stigmatizing them.  The latter should be rounded up immediately and imprisoned at least until the case is resolved.
 
2013-03-18 01:34:31 PM  

HAMMERTOE: Probably the very best argument to live in a "Shall Issue" state.


We don't require a permit to carry concealed here.
You go to the store, pick out a nice concealed holster, or fanny pack. And wear in public.

We don't have a lot of crime, either.
 
2013-03-18 01:34:47 PM  
None of this behavior surprises me. When I was in High School the football team quarterback got his girlfriend pregnant, so he shot her multiple times then turned the gun on himself.

The next day the school held a big ceremony for mourning the quarterback. The entire school was filled with kids and teachers grieving over him with signs and pictures of him all over campus about how sad it was that this had happened to him. Not a single mention of the poor girl he murdered.

That was about the time that my last shred of faith in humanity was cut.


Bullshiat. I went to that school, and that didn't happen. Stop making up nonsense to try to prove your idiotic point.
 
2013-03-18 01:35:01 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: RedT: 
This is simply the situation in this country.

Yet, many people don't want to admit that we have a rape culture and want to get offended by the phrase.  But our culture teaches us (both men and women) that gals must be on the lookout at ALL TIMES for potential rape situations.

That's not "culture"?  Bullshiat.

Your daydreams are not our culture.  They're not even every woman's daydreams.

I prescribe Zen meditation.


6/10
 
2013-03-18 01:35:37 PM  

HAMMERTOE: BarkingUnicorn: Tricky Chicken: doglover: Tricky Chicken: Are you comparing rape to various socialist policies? Or were you going for the wealth redistribution idea?

I for one would like to opt out of "rape redistribution" preemptively, just in case.

I don't think it would be an opt out situation.  Wimins have the hoohaa, mens wants the hoohaas.  It is clearly a monopoly.

And women want the cock.  It's odd that they are considered greedy and miserly, but cocksmen are considered generous and philanthropic.

Actually, I was angling about the "Wealth Redistribution" aspect with my original statement. It all boils down to the Haves and the Have- nots, as it so often does. As was stated by more people than just myself, women have the booty; and are fairly stingy with it, just like the rich people are with their money. Some men are born better off, just like some people are born rich. For them, access to booty (money) is never a problem. As for the "Women want the cock" aspect, this just doesn't work out to be true. For example, in a divorce, the wife has traditionally gotten a share of the husband's money, even if she never worked a day in her life, and had a maid do all the housework. Yet, have you ever heard of one single case where the ex-wife was required to maintain a sex life for her ex-husband comparable to the financial standard of living he is required to provide for her? If she didn't work, and had a maid to do all the housework, that was pretty much the context of her "contribution" to the marriage.


You are describing intercourse as a tradeable commodity. Overt prostitution is illegal in most jurisdictions.  In your divorce scenario, the ex-wife would be forced to subject herself to unwanted intercourse in exchange for financial gain.  I would assume that if she were to refues intercourse then she would forfeit the alimony?  This is a dangerous concept since some women would be discouraged from leaving bad relationships.  A married woman can refuse sex and still live in the nice house. But in your scenario, a divorced woman would be on her own and be forced to provide sex.

No, I must reject your implication that marital sex can be treated as a commodity.

Now open prostitution, is a different subject altogether.
 
2013-03-18 01:36:02 PM  

tlars699: Carth: WhippingBoy: Zombalupagus: The silver lining on that is, contrary to what rapists think, most men are decent human beings and would not do anything like that given the chance. Instead, it's a very small percentage that are very, very dangerous.

I think this may be why people are resistant to statements like "we need to teach men not to rape". The implication is that "men" don't already know this and would rape at the first chance if they thought they could get away with it.

It doesn't seem like a bad idea to teach your high school son things like: if a girl has been drinking she can't consent to sex, if even after consenting to sex she wants to stop you need to do so immediately, any pictures she gives you shouldn't be shown to anyone else should be immediately deleted from your phone after you see it. While these things might be obvious to most adults, teens can be freaking morons sometimes.

FTFY


That's true. With the popularity of snapchat I think that goes without saying but a very good point.
 
2013-03-18 01:36:47 PM  

Carth: It doesn't seem like a bad idea to teach your high school son things like: if a girl has been drinking she can't consent to sex, if even after consenting to sex she wants to stop you need to do so immediately, any pictures she gives you shouldn't be shown to anyone else. While these things might be obvious to most adults, teens can be freaking morons sometimes.


Of course it's not a bad idea. It's a great idea, in fact. Why do you assume that people aren't already teaching this to their sons?
 
2013-03-18 01:37:45 PM  

Waxing_Chewbacca: vudukungfu: What kind of parents do these animals have?

Useless ones


But proud and loyal.
 
2013-03-18 01:38:08 PM  

Super_pope: Basically it paints any sexual contact between two people who are both likely too impaired to be 100% on top of their judgement as a potential crime if either one of them decides later that they don't like what happened.


Impaired doesn't mean "had two Mike's Hard Lemonades earlier in the evening".  Impaired means impaired!
 
2013-03-18 01:38:24 PM  

WhippingBoy: tlars699: I have to say that, as a woman, I took her meaning of  "Any concern about his safety" to be equivalent to the statement "Any concern of being raped", as she was talking about rape previously.

That I saw this, and you didn't, only points out how true her statement is...

Also, homophobia can be expressed as the fear that any man could or would treat you the same as you would treat a woman.

I give up. You're just going to interpret anything that doesn't support your narrow world view however you see fit.
How is it that you're even able to leave the house? The world is full of potential rapists that could strike at any given moment.


Not if I am with other people/other people are around who have the potential to observe such an act. You also can't live in fear at all times, as then nothing would get done. You just learn to be wary, and look over your shoulder frequently. It gets really freaky when I'm obviously the only one carting around my two small children across the dark parking lot to get into my apartment, but *shrugs* I'm glad you don't have to deal with it.
 
2013-03-18 01:40:39 PM  
Well don't rape unconscious women then. It's not that hard, ya know.
 
2013-03-18 01:43:12 PM  

Tricky Chicken: You are describing intercourse as a tradeable commodity. Overt prostitution is illegal in most jurisdictions. In your divorce scenario, the ex-wife would be forced to subject herself to unwanted intercourse in exchange for financial gain. I would assume that if she were to refues intercourse then she would forfeit the alimony? This is a dangerous concept since some women would be discouraged from leaving bad relationships. A married woman can refuse sex and still live in the nice house. But in your scenario, a divorced woman would be on her own and be forced to provide sex.

No, I must reject your implication that marital sex can be treated as a commodity.

Now open prostitution, is a different subject altogether.


Come on now. If marital sex cannot be treated as a "commodity", on what grounds do you justify alimony? Because if she's entitled to being taken care of in the way she's become accustomed to, the very same principle should apply to him as well.
 
2013-03-18 01:44:18 PM  

Bontesla: Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: Where you in the courtroom? Did you hear all the evidence? No and no. The judge did and agrees with 90% of us who heard what has been reported. Your crusade to exonerate these two is disturbing. A bit up thread you stated that while she may have been drunk at one point she sobered up and wanted it. farking troglodyte.

I didn't state any such thing, stop blatantly lying and distorting what I said. I said that we have no way of knowing when those pictures were taken in relation to when the sexual contact happened. I guess you're going to continue ignoring testimony that the girl willingly went with the guys and lashed out at one of her friends that tried to stop her from leaving.

Did you hear all the evidence? Do you believe that judges always act on the facts and never on public pressure or their own beliefs?

I've said over and over that I have no way of knowing exactly what happened and would like to see more evidence. You seem fine with labeling them as rapists without having all the facts. You're the one that's farked up in the head, not me.

Wait - leaving a party with guys equates consent for sexual activity? You're going to have to do better than that. Especially given that party goers openly talked about the girl's rape. Are you suggesting that you have more firsthand knowledge than the party's attendees?

It's also important to note that they went to multiple parties. She had to be escorted out of the first one because she couldn't talk or string together a sentence (according to eye witnesses).


He's ignoring the "reasonable" part of "reasonable doubt," as young-earthers do when describing evolution as "just a theory."

"I don't believe it.  You  can prove it to me and I still won't believe it."  Doug Adams.
 
2013-03-18 01:46:19 PM  

WhippingBoy: Carth: It doesn't seem like a bad idea to teach your high school son things like: if a girl has been drinking she can't consent to sex, if even after consenting to sex she wants to stop you need to do so immediately, any pictures she gives you shouldn't be shown to anyone else. While these things might be obvious to most adults, teens can be freaking morons sometimes.

Of course it's not a bad idea. It's a great idea, in fact. Why do you assume that people aren't already teaching this to their sons?


Because I volunteer with high school teenagers few times a week and over hear their conversations. I do a face palm at some of the things they believe about sex at least once or twice a month. Most of them will tell you their parents don't talk to them about sex and sex education is almost non existent at a lot of public schools. This means they end up learning things from their peers or the Internet and leads to a lot of messed up views.
 
2013-03-18 01:47:20 PM  
I'm with the camp that says the parents who allowed alcohol use/abuse on their premises should be charged/prosecuted for allowing all of this to happen.

If football is soooooo great, why did they even allow their kids the chance to fark up their careers like this?
 
2013-03-18 01:49:14 PM  

Carth: WhippingBoy: Carth: It doesn't seem like a bad idea to teach your high school son things like: if a girl has been drinking she can't consent to sex, if even after consenting to sex she wants to stop you need to do so immediately, any pictures she gives you shouldn't be shown to anyone else. While these things might be obvious to most adults, teens can be freaking morons sometimes.

Of course it's not a bad idea. It's a great idea, in fact. Why do you assume that people aren't already teaching this to their sons?

Because I volunteer with high school teenagers few times a week and over hear their conversations. I do a face palm at some of the things they believe about sex at least once or twice a month. Most of them will tell you their parents don't talk to them about sex and sex education is almost non existent at a lot of public schools. This means they end up learning things from their peers or the Internet and leads to a lot of messed up views.


Of course if you tried to help Johnny out with telling him literature to look at, and the parents catch wind of it, you'd get charged with corruption of a minor, or some such. So much lose.
 
2013-03-18 01:50:50 PM  
Some of you are seriously misrepresenting Ohio's law when it comes to giving consent while being intoxicated.

The statute for rape states: (a) For the purpose of preventing resistance, the offender substantially impairs the other person's judgment or control by administering any drug, intoxicant, or controlled substance to the other person surreptitiously or by force, threat of force, or deception.

The statute for sexual battery states: (2) The offender knows that the other person's ability to appraise the nature of or control the other person's own conduct is substantially impaired.

Link
 
2013-03-18 01:52:21 PM  

tlars699: Esroc: None of this behavior surprises me. When I was in High School the football team quarterback got his girlfriend pregnant, so he shot her multiple times then turned the gun on himself.

The next day the school held a big ceremony for mourning the quarterback. The entire school was filled with kids and teachers grieving over him with signs and pictures of him all over campus about how sad it was that this had happened to him. Not a single mention of the poor girl he murdered.

That was about the time that my last shred of faith in humanity was cut.


This is abhorrent.


It defies my imagination of decency.  The only plausible explanation I can think of is that the girl's family requested that her name not be mentioned in conjunction with his, or at all in a public ceremony (circus?).  Anything else is outrageous.
 
2013-03-18 01:56:49 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: He's ignoring the "reasonable" part of "reasonable doubt," as young-earthers do when describing evolution as "just a theory."


It's unreasonable that a drunk 16 year old might have wanted sex? Ooooooooookay then.

The problem here is that some of you see a picture of a passed out, half nude girl and automatically assume that's when the sexual contact must have occurred. Of course what that infamous picture showed is a crime in itself, but it's not proof that a rape occurred.
 
2013-03-18 01:59:48 PM  

jso2897: Mobutu: RobSeace: Ukab the Great: You do believe in the Bible...don't you?

Believe in it? I've actually seen one before!

borg: Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives? Thats what will ruin their lives and any chance of decent employment.

[i.imgur.com image 640x425]

Eh...  we should not be handling criminal prosecution with vengeance in mind.

As deplorable as what these kids did was, well, first:  They are kids.  That is not a sympathetic statement, just fact.  Secondly, things like the Sex Offender registry do in fact ruin lives and, really, once you have that on your record, what are you going to do?  You are practically forced into worse crimes out of sheer self preservation.

Our criminal justice system needs an overhaul.  I don't know what to recommend, and I don't say this out of any sympathy for the perpetrators here, just a sad fact - what we are doing, does not work, and in fact does more harm than good.

The very last thing that the justice system needs is an "overhaul" by some ideologue or ideologues who are upset because it has yielded a result they don't like. Our justice system is the result of the gradual evolution of centuries of legal and social precedent - and any good changes that come will be slow, cautious, and incremental. The idea that there is something out there that will "work" when one is dealing with psychopaths and sociopaths (which most violent criminals are) is not one that appears to have much evidence to support it. It may not exist. Either way, some radical "overhaul" of 5000 years of precedent is not going to fix it overnight.


I'm just saying that we would be better off killing such people outright, than banishing them into exile where their only option is further depravity and criminal action.

The Sex Offenders list is literally creating more problems than it solves.  Similar to how Prison culture ends up building a better, worse criminal rather than actually rehabilitating anyone in most cases.

It isn't about "turning over 5,000 years of precedent."  It is about realizing that we have not thought our cunning plan through all the way.  Again, I don't know what to recommend, but very little that we are doing is truly addressing the problem.
 
2013-03-18 02:01:14 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: tlars699: Esroc: None of this behavior surprises me. When I was in High School the football team quarterback got his girlfriend pregnant, so he shot her multiple times then turned the gun on himself.

The next day the school held a big ceremony for mourning the quarterback. The entire school was filled with kids and teachers grieving over him with signs and pictures of him all over campus about how sad it was that this had happened to him. Not a single mention of the poor girl he murdered.

That was about the time that my last shred of faith in humanity was cut.


This is abhorrent.

It defies my imagination of decency.  The only plausible explanation I can think of is that the girl's family requested that her name not be mentioned in conjunction with his, or at all in a public ceremony (circus?).  Anything else is outrageous.


Why do any of this at all? He played a sport, he's not anything important. I don't understand wanting to parade pictures and stuff in a school for children.

We had 4 students die in a car accident when I was in high school. We had an announcement and a few free days to hang around, talk to each other and councilors and try to come to terms with what happened. We didn't have a huge assembly where we praised these kids. But they also weren't murderers.

Alternatively, about a year after I started my job here, one of the surface mount operators (who was always quiet, did a good job) went home, got into an argument with his wife, and shot her and then himself. He left behind two young kids. Aside from the guy not being there anymore and the rumor mill, everything went on as normal.

Does the kid get special treatment because he was young? Is that a reason to not mention that he killed a young girl and an unborn child in cold blood?
Or is it because he's a football player and some how exempt from the shame and ire of having killed a young girl and an unborn child in cold blood?

Why didn't my work hold a big "circus" where they praised what a hard worker he was, how he never showed up late, and how tragic it was to lose him?

Because all we knew was that he and his wife were fighting and separated, and he killed her and then himself with his children in the house. That's a monster. Wanna off yourself, fine, but leave the others out of it.
 
2013-03-18 02:01:51 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: tlars699: Esroc: None of this behavior surprises me. When I was in High School the football team quarterback got his girlfriend pregnant, so he shot her multiple times then turned th