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(Opposing Views)   CNN host Candy Crowley and reporter Poppy Harlow are almost in tears over the "ruined lives" of the two Steubenville, Ohio teen football players who were found guilty of gang-raping a 16-year-old girl   (opposingviews.com) divider line 659
    More: Sick, Steubenville, Candy Crowley, Poppy Harlow, CNN, CNN host, Ohio, guilty verdicts, rapists  
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20143 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Mar 2013 at 6:09 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-18 03:57:09 PM  

WhippingBoy: RedT: WhippingBoy:

 It's also statistically more likely that I'll be randomly killed (or have the quality of my life incredibly impacted) than you will be randomly raped (or killed).


Murder (in Canada)

One of every 17 Canadian women is raped at some point in her life.  Couldn't find an exact number, but according to Wiki for every 1.9 murders there are 68 sexual assaults (rape is not used in the Canadian legal code)

You may want to look at this (although you are not likely to believe any of it)

I believe every word of it. How many of these rapes were random, you intellectually dishonest, goalpost-moving cretin?


How many times have we said we were afraid of being assaulted by "strangers", hence your need fro random? Just because we have to be wary at all times of exposure, doesn't mean we think we won't know who this potential assaulter might be.  Doesn't mean the person who wants tovictimize you doesn't follow you around, just to see the best vantage point for them in your day.
We are aware of the fact that most of our rapists are people we know. You're the only one who has brought up "random" violence, just so you can dismiss us and our concern of pervasive cultural issues that concern rape.
 
2013-03-18 03:57:59 PM  
These scum-sucking dogs will remain "sex offenders" until the day they die.
 
2013-03-18 04:07:22 PM  

serial_crusher: tlars699: Teaching everybody that rape is not funny, EVER;

Meh, plenty of crimes can be funny without people thinking engaging in them is a good idea.  How many times would the three stooges have been guilty of assault if they tried their antics in real life?

Teach people that it's not funny when real people are raped (unless they're celebrities, who aren't generally regarded as "real people", but are also used to public scrutiny so shouldn't have a problem), but to say that it's not funny ever?  Not even a 40lb box of rape, or the "you gonna get raped" guy?


Why not give a 40 lb box of murder, or "You gonna get robbed"? Why is the rape the funny part?
 
2013-03-18 04:08:09 PM  

ginandbacon: WhippingBoy: RedT: WhippingBoy:

 It's also statistically more likely that I'll be randomly killed (or have the quality of my life incredibly impacted) than you will be randomly raped (or killed).


Murder (in Canada)

One of every 17 Canadian women is raped at some point in her life.  Couldn't find an exact number, but according to Wiki for every 1.9 murders there are 68 sexual assaults (rape is not used in the Canadian legal code)

You may want to look at this (although you are not likely to believe any of it)

I believe every word of it. How many of these rapes were random, you intellectually dishonest, goalpost-moving cretin?

I'm going to cut you some slack but also take you to task for something else.

Slack: I don't actually worry much about getting raped because life is short and I know that if I am ever raped it will most likely be by someone I know and trust in an environment I consider safe. So it really isn't much more of an active consideration in my day to day existence than the possibility that I might be murdered which is very low even though I live in Baltimore (I jest.) I understand the point you are making, yet I think you are too quick to dismiss the fact that many women have a huge fear of rape. (Even if it is irrational, it is a byproduct of being told that we are responsible for preventing our own victimization while knowing that we are for the most part incapable of doing anything about it.)

The taking to task: Why have you spent so much time arguing this point in a thread about the kidnapping and repeated rape of a 16 year old girl and the subsequent slanted news coverage of the sentencing of her accusers? Stop and ask yourself if this is the best place to devote your energies right now and here. Is this really the best use of your intellect and heart?


Your criticism is valid and I agree; this is not an appropriate thread to discuss such things. My tail is firmly between my legs.
For what it's worth, what set me off is (my impression) of the general low esteem for men that tends to surface in these threads. I don't need to be taught how "not to rape", nor does any man I know or associate with. To constantly hear this platitude in every single one of these threads is somewhat frustrating (I understand why this is said, and I entirely agree with the sentiment behind it, but it seems to me to be painting with an incredibly broad brush). The other thing is that I'm constantly told about how wonderful it is to be a man and how good I've got it by people who have no idea what it's like. Because I've got it so "good", any concern or problem I may have, no matter how real or overwhelming it is to me, can safely be summarily dismissed by a simple "Oh noes, what about the menz?"
 
2013-03-18 04:11:58 PM  

WhippingBoy: ginandbacon: WhippingBoy: RedT: WhippingBoy:

 It's also statistically more likely that I'll be randomly killed (or have the quality of my life incredibly impacted) than you will be randomly raped (or killed).


Murder (in Canada)

One of every 17 Canadian women is raped at some point in her life.  Couldn't find an exact number, but according to Wiki for every 1.9 murders there are 68 sexual assaults (rape is not used in the Canadian legal code)

You may want to look at this (although you are not likely to believe any of it)

I believe every word of it. How many of these rapes were random, you intellectually dishonest, goalpost-moving cretin?

I'm going to cut you some slack but also take you to task for something else.

Slack: I don't actually worry much about getting raped because life is short and I know that if I am ever raped it will most likely be by someone I know and trust in an environment I consider safe. So it really isn't much more of an active consideration in my day to day existence than the possibility that I might be murdered which is very low even though I live in Baltimore (I jest.) I understand the point you are making, yet I think you are too quick to dismiss the fact that many women have a huge fear of rape. (Even if it is irrational, it is a byproduct of being told that we are responsible for preventing our own victimization while knowing that we are for the most part incapable of doing anything about it.)

The taking to task: Why have you spent so much time arguing this point in a thread about the kidnapping and repeated rape of a 16 year old girl and the subsequent slanted news coverage of the sentencing of her accusers? Stop and ask yourself if this is the best place to devote your energies right now and here. Is this really the best use of your intellect and heart?

Your criticism is valid and I agree; this is not an appropriate thread to discuss such things. My tail is firmly between my legs.
For what it's worth, what set me off is (my imp ...


Awww, Whipping Boy... I never said it was easy to be a man.
I only said I was glad you didn't have to think about being raped as often as a woman does, as a part of our culture.
 Fyi, I feel really bad for the victims of rape that are also men, if you didn't catch it earlier up thread.
 
2013-03-18 04:12:44 PM  

God-is-a-Taco: bmihura: hubiestubert: These young men are damn lucky to have gotten off this easy, and not in someplace, like say, Texas, where a judge might have looked askance if the young men happened to have had horrible accidents like falling onto a couple of baseball bats several dozen times, or drowned themselves in their own toilets...

I live in Texas next to Williamson County, and those would have been some of the lighter sentences.

How would Texas be less lenient against football stars?
The school would have just bought the victim a new house or something.


A new house for getting penetrated while unconscious? Are we talking a $25,000 shack or a couple hundred thousand nice house?
 
2013-03-18 04:13:25 PM  

tlars699: Why not give a 40 lb box of murder, or "You gonna get robbed"? Why is the rape the funny part?



The box of rape is noteworthy because it's an actual label from a box of actual vegetation. Its humor is derived from the shock value of something so far removed from the item you're looking at.

People advocating prison rape as a method of eye-for-an-eye punishment is not funny however.

Personally I don't think dudes getting hit in the nuts is funny either, but America's Funniest Home Videos made a franchise out of it.
 
2013-03-18 04:13:38 PM  

tlars699: WhippingBoy: RedT: WhippingBoy:

 It's also statistically more likely that I'll be randomly killed (or have the quality of my life incredibly impacted) than you will be randomly raped (or killed).


Murder (in Canada)

One of every 17 Canadian women is raped at some point in her life.  Couldn't find an exact number, but according to Wiki for every 1.9 murders there are 68 sexual assaults (rape is not used in the Canadian legal code)

You may want to look at this (although you are not likely to believe any of it)

I believe every word of it. How many of these rapes were random, you intellectually dishonest, goalpost-moving cretin?

How many times have we said we were afraid of being assaulted by "strangers", hence your need fro random? Just because we have to be wary at all times of exposure, doesn't mean we think we won't know who this potential assaulter might be.  Doesn't mean the person who wants tovictimize you doesn't follow you around, just to see the best vantage point for them in your day.
We are aware of the fact that most of our rapists are people we know. You're the only one who has brought up "random" violence, just so you can dismiss us and our concern of pervasive cultural issues that concern rape.


This whole thing started when I addressed the following comment: "I sincerely doubt any man who I saw running on that same loop had ANY concern about his safety beyond tripping over a root and busting his own ass."

Given the situation (isolated running track early in the morning), my impression was that the type of concern in question was about a random attack by a stranger. You're the one moving the goalposts, not me.
 
2013-03-18 04:14:43 PM  

LiteWerk: These scum-sucking dogs will remain "sex offenders" until the day they die.


I'm sure someone has already purchased the domain names to their names and associated it with the crime, already.
 
2013-03-18 04:18:31 PM  

Pontious Pilates: Good heavens, THIS. Hunter S. Thompson put it best: "With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms."


Damn, I somehow missed him saying that. I'm saving that one for the next time this conversation comes up.
 
2013-03-18 04:19:07 PM  

INeedAName: feckingmorons: penthesilea: [i470.photobucket.com image 500x333]

Shameful.

Contrast that with FoxNews who quotes the mother of the young woman who was criminally assaulted saying "[This crime]does not define who my daughter is. She will persevere, grow and move on."

That is exactly the story that needs to be told. Crime victims, and especially victims of sexual battery, are indeed victims. The criminals are not to be pitied for their poor choices, they are to be imprisoned.

Like Fox News or not (and I don't really watch any of the cable news) that is the right story, not how these two idiots ruined their lives by engaging in criminal sexual battery and other crimes. Screw them.

They may be on the right side of things, but Fox's story is just as much BS as the others. If it hadn't been two young black men, and was instead two young, promising white conservatives who had just gotten into Liberty Univ. I guarantee Fox would be playing an entirely different side.


Yes, Fox is racist.


Fox did the right thing, but they could have done something different if they behaved the way I feel they are biased so they're racist.

Is that what you are saying?

Really?
 
2013-03-18 04:21:02 PM  

tlars699: 40 lb box of murder


well, people might get confused with the metal band of the same name.
 
2013-03-18 04:23:44 PM  

serial_crusher: tlars699: Teaching everybody that rape is not funny, EVER;

Meh, plenty of crimes can be funny without people thinking engaging in them is a good idea.  How many times would the three stooges have been guilty of assault if they tried their antics in real life?

Teach people that it's not funny when real people are raped (unless they're celebrities, who aren't generally regarded as "real people", but are also used to public scrutiny so shouldn't have a problem), but to say that it's not funny ever?  Not even a 40lb box of rape, or the "you gonna get raped" guy?


Or the entirety of "Blazing Saddles"? (Which also jokes about murder, arson, racism, and well just about every illegal and/or immoral thing humans are capable of...)
 
2013-03-18 04:25:26 PM  
This comment will be considered "trolling" (whatever, adolescent waste of time that the younger people came up with - I honestly don't understand the draw...why would one waste time like that?) But here's my comment. You young girls, going out and getting so liquored up you become UNCONSCIOUS....shame on you too. You are being disrespectful to your body, to your spirit and putting yourself in dangerous situations. You are not without accountability. GROW A PAIR and put the Farking drink down, no matter how many frat twats are trying to get you wasted.

Women, you need to stop hiding behind this shiat. You are in control of your body and what happens to it. Put your big girl panties on and stop with the whining and sniffling.
 
2013-03-18 04:30:39 PM  

Witness99: This comment will be considered "trolling" (whatever, adolescent waste of time that the younger people came up with - I honestly don't understand the draw...why would one waste time like that?) But here's my comment. You young girls, going out and getting so liquored up you become UNCONSCIOUS....shame on you too. You are being disrespectful to your body, to your spirit and putting yourself in dangerous situations. You are not without accountability. GROW A PAIR and put the Farking drink down, no matter how many frat twats are trying to get you wasted.

Women, you need to stop hiding behind this shiat. You are in control of your body and what happens to it. Put your big girl panties on and stop with the whining and sniffling.


I don't think anyone has disagreed with that sentiment either, but just because they drink to unconsciousness  does not mean they have to be raped. You know, in our culture, when someone repeatedly drinks until they do stupid shiat or they pass out, we start to chide them for their stupid behavior and constant drinking?
 
2013-03-18 04:33:57 PM  

Celerian: Witness99: This comment will be considered "trolling" (whatever, adolescent waste of time that the younger people came up with - I honestly don't understand the draw...why would one waste time like that?) But here's my comment. You young girls, going out and getting so liquored up you become UNCONSCIOUS....shame on you too. You are being disrespectful to your body, to your spirit and putting yourself in dangerous situations. You are not without accountability. GROW A PAIR and put the Farking drink down, no matter how many frat twats are trying to get you wasted.

Women, you need to stop hiding behind this shiat. You are in control of your body and what happens to it. Put your big girl panties on and stop with the whining and sniffling.

I don't think anyone has disagreed with that sentiment either, but just because they drink to unconsciousness  does not mean they have to be raped. You know, in our culture, when someone repeatedly drinks until they do stupid shiat or they pass out, we start to chide them for their stupid behavior and constant drinking?


Or we draw moustaches on them.
 
2013-03-18 04:34:31 PM  

Celerian: but just because they drink to unconsciousness  does not mean they have to be raped.


Two threads later and nobody has been able to prove this assumption.
 
2013-03-18 04:34:54 PM  
 
2013-03-18 04:35:30 PM  

WhippingBoy: Your criticism is valid and I agree; this is not an appropriate thread to discuss such things. My tail is firmly between my legs.
For what it's worth, what set me off is (my impression) of the general low esteem for men that tends to surface in these threads. I don't need to be taught how "not to rape", nor does any man I know or associate with. To constantly hear this platitude in every single one of these threads is somewhat frustrating (I understand why this is said, and I entirely agree with the sentiment behind it, but it seems to me to be painting with an incredibly broad brush). The other thing is that I'm constantly told about how wonderful it is to be a man and how good I've got it by people who have no idea what it's like. Because I've got it so "good", any concern or problem I may have, no matter how real or overwhelming it is to me, can safely be summarily dismissed by a simple "Oh noes, what about the menz?"


Thank you for hearing my respectful complaint. I haven't seen much male bashing in these threads myself. Perhaps I missed them. What I have seen is that many of us women have pointed out that we did exactly what this girl did and never got raped because the boys we hung out with would never do that or allow it to happen in their presence. We were lucky to grow up in an environment that taught us to care about each other and value each other as human beings. I am still friends with many of them and I admire their journeys and understand the particular difficulties men in our culture face as a direct result of the kind of BS we tolerate and often condone. I have lost male friends to suicide and acquaintances to homicide. I have seen male relatives die young from stress or from losing their spouses when they were the main connection they had to a social existence because we don't teach our boys to value relationships as much as their external expressions of self.

But that does not change the facts of this case or the fact that we do have a culture that first looks to excuse rape, then blame the victim, and as a last resort to change the subject.

I would really appreciate having you as an ally in combating this. You seem smart and capable of forming a thought in a clear and concise way. Perhaps you could focus your energies more on the people you agree with? It would not go unnoticed.
 
2013-03-18 04:37:14 PM  
I meant to say "having Demi Moore depict a rapist in  Disclosure is misogyny"...I may not be able to consent to intercourse at present.
 
2013-03-18 04:38:02 PM  
so I've come to conclude after 2 threads and over 1200 posts, this argument seems to be hung up on the classic nature versus nurture debate:

nature: on one side we have those who consider the actions of the victim as contributing to what happens.  they put themselves into a high risk environment, and consume drugs/alcohol that further increases the risk.  to them its a pure statistical situation where the rape just randomly occurs, like lightning just randomly strikes someone who walks through a field during a thunder storm.  based on this, you can only conclude that the rapist is born to rape, that there is a set of genes which determine can be used to determined at birth who is and who isn't going to be a rapist.  this has the potential for very dark outcomes

nurture: on the other hand there are those who focus on the actions of the rapists themselves, who have been raised in a culture that essentially has led them into a worldview where rape is a tolerable action.  They aren't born as rapists, but just are not exposed to an environment that sufficiently reinforces the notion that rape is very wrong.

While I lean very heavily on the latter of the two as being the most important aspect, I do accept that this is not a black and white issue.  I accept that there are some individuals who are more genetically predisposed towards any type of violence or sexual aggression than others. But what I refuse to accept is that they do not have any free will to choose their actions.  If they really are "rape machines", -as Kurt Vonnegut might have put it-  they are no longer human, they are zombies.  And if thats the case, we are royally farked.
 
2013-03-18 04:39:56 PM  

Genevieve Marie: BarkingUnicorn: Genevieve Marie: This is the problem with making the narrative about the victim's choices. It always seems to conveniently gloss over the fact that the rapists had a choice too, and the one they made actually IS illegal.

When a problem is being adequately addressed in court, it is not being "glossed over."  A problem that is not being addressed merits discussion.

Except the idea that women have a responsibility to constantly watch out for rapists is not a problem that isn't being addressed. It's something that's been addressed ad nauseam. Ask almost any woman alive and she'll be able to give you a run down of all the ways in which she watches out for her personal safety at all times.


I have known an apparently unusual number of zombie women who are related to Alfred E. Neumann.

We're on that. We got it. Teaching women how not to get raped has been the core of rape prevention strategy forever. It's tiresome. We get it, and most of us follow all those little rules all of the time, but sometimes you have a bad night. I know there have definitely been a few nights in my life where for whatever reason, I had too much to drink. I wasn't raped though- because there wasn't a rapist in the room with me. That's the x factor. The decision to drink too much does not necessarily have destructive consequences.

Choosing the people you get drunk with is part of the program. (I bet you're a fun drunk, and I'm not trying to be creepy.)

It's not helpful or productive to look at cases where a woman passed out or otherwise let down her guard and point to that as the cause of the rape.

No, it isn't.  Looking at such cases as opportunities to improve future outcomes is.  NASA is careful all the time, too.  Nobody shied away from looking into Challenger.

"What went wrong?" is an important question to ask. (It may be the most frequently asked question. :-)  If the answer is, "Nothing we could have avoided," congratulations.  If not, the next response is, "What can we do to avoid this in the future?" not, "You're a farking farkup who farked up."
 
2013-03-18 04:41:05 PM  

feckingmorons: I

f it hadn't been two young black men

Where is this bizarre bit of misinformation coming from? I keep seeing it.
 
2013-03-18 04:45:01 PM  

WhippingBoy: The other thing is that I'm constantly told about how wonderful it is to be a man and how good I've got it by people who have no idea what it's like. Because I've got it so "good", any concern or problem I may have, no matter how real or overwhelming it is to me, can safely be summarily dismissed by a simple "Oh noes, what about the menz?"


For what it's worth, I spend a lot of time in feminist communities and I've never seen the "But what about the menz" reaction used when a man is bringing up a sincere point about something in his life that's difficult. When it does come up is when women are discussing gendered violence and other problems that disproportionately affect women and some guy pops in and tries to make the conversation about men instead.

I think actually there needs to be more dialogue about the problems young men face growing up, particularly the lack of emotional outlets we provide for them. I just don't see a thread about violence towards a woman as the appropriate place to talk about the difficulties of being a man.
 
2013-03-18 04:47:13 PM  

Witness99: This comment will be considered "trolling" (whatever, adolescent waste of time that the younger people came up with - I honestly don't understand the draw...why would one waste time like that?) But here's my comment. You young girls, going out and getting so liquored up you become UNCONSCIOUS....shame on you too. You are being disrespectful to your body, to your spirit and putting yourself in dangerous situations. You are not without accountability. GROW A PAIR and put the Farking drink down, no matter how many frat twats are trying to get you wasted.

Women, you need to stop hiding behind this shiat. You are in control of your body and what happens to it. Put your big girl panties on and stop with the whining and sniffling.


You had me until paragraph 2. They aren't hiding behind shiat when they're raped... Sadly a lot of them just hide to avoid public ridicule and shame.
 
2013-03-18 04:47:42 PM  

Genevieve Marie: Yea, I feel really gross just reading that. The idea that women's bodies are commodities that men are entitled to, regardless of how the woman feels about it is about as glaring an example of promoting rape culture as you'll see.


But there's no thought given to the sanctity of the man's body. How he's forced into a life of indentured servitude to support her.
 
2013-03-18 04:48:24 PM  

chocolate covered poop: so I've come to conclude after 2 threads and over 1200 posts, this argument seems to be hung up on the classic nature versus nurture debate:

nature: on one side we have those who consider the actions of the victim as contributing to what happens.  they put themselves into a high risk environment, and consume drugs/alcohol that further increases the risk.  to them its a pure statistical situation where the rape just randomly occurs, like lightning just randomly strikes someone who walks through a field during a thunder storm.  based on this, you can only conclude that the rapist is born to rape, that there is a set of genes which determine can be used to determined at birth who is and who isn't going to be a rapist.  this has the potential for very dark outcomes

nurture: on the other hand there are those who focus on the actions of the rapists themselves, who have been raised in a culture that essentially has led them into a worldview where rape is a tolerable action.  They aren't born as rapists, but just are not exposed to an environment that sufficiently reinforces the notion that rape is very wrong.

While I lean very heavily on the latter of the two as being the most important aspect, I do accept that this is not a black and white issue.  I accept that there are some individuals who are more genetically predisposed towards any type of violence or sexual aggression than others. But what I refuse to accept is that they do not have any free will to choose their actions.  If they really are "rape machines", -as Kurt Vonnegut might have put it-  they are no longer human, they are zombies.  And if thats the case, we are royally farked.


I think one of the most important facts to consider is that the incidence of rape varies widely in different cultures. Even within the same country. That would suggest we have some obligation to pursue cultural solutions no matter what role nature may play. Why don't we start there?
 
2013-03-18 04:49:47 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: "What went wrong?" is an important question to ask. (It may be the most frequently asked question. :-) If the answer is, "Nothing we could have avoided," congratulations. If not, the next response is, "What can we do to avoid this in the future?" not, "You're a farking farkup who farked up."


And I think that's fair, but I also really don't like that it almost always comes down to insinuating that the victim's actions means they're partially at fault for the fact that someone else decided to perform a criminal act on them.

If people looking at this situation go "Ok, clearly we need to educate teenagers not just about alcohol, but about how to tell when someone else has had too much and how to respond in that situation" that's a positive reaction. If we look at it and say "Young women who have too much to drink are partially to blame if someone rapes them" then we're taking away the wrong lesson.

Honestly I think that's what's so shocking about this case. There were a lot of people there, and apparently not one teenager at that party had been taught how to look out for others or what to do if they saw a young woman being abused.
 
2013-03-18 04:50:54 PM  

HAMMERTOE: Genevieve Marie: Yea, I feel really gross just reading that. The idea that women's bodies are commodities that men are entitled to, regardless of how the woman feels about it is about as glaring an example of promoting rape culture as you'll see.

But there's no thought given to the sanctity of the man's body. How he's forced into a life of indentured servitude to support her.


Oh good christ. You live in the U.S.

Almost all families in the U.S. are two income households these days.
 
2013-03-18 04:52:05 PM  

Genevieve Marie: Honestly I think that's what's so shocking about this case. There were a lot of people there, and apparently not one teenager at that party had been taught how to look out for others or what to do if they saw a young woman being abused.


I agree. If you consider the implications, they're quite bone-chilling.
 
2013-03-18 04:53:07 PM  

RobSeace: Ukab the Great: You do believe in the Bible...don't you?

Believe in it? I've actually seen one before!

borg: Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives? Thats what will ruin their lives and any chance of decent employment.

[i.imgur.com image 640x425]


Literally my first thought when I read that comment. Glad to see someone beat me to it.
 
2013-03-18 04:55:28 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Celerian: but just because they drink to unconsciousness  does not mean they have to be raped.

Two threads later and nobody has been able to prove this assumption.


Seriously, you are that farking retarded? I'm not making an assumption. I'm stating fact.

IF SOMEONE IS PASSED OUT DRUNK, THEY DO NOT REQUIRE SOMEONE TO RAPE THEM.

You can like, I don't know, leave them the fark alone. This is not an assumption.
 
2013-03-18 04:57:39 PM  

Genevieve Marie: There were a lot of people there, and apparently not one teenager at that party had been taught how to look out for others or what to do if they saw a young woman being abused.


That is what I find so mind-boggling. I don't know one single male who would have allowed this to happen in his presence much less a female. It's just shocking. I'm sure there are lot of young men and women (although not her two "supposed" friends who testified against her) who are spending some sleepless nights these days. But crikey. How do you get to the point where you can witness something like this and laugh about it?
 
2013-03-18 05:02:14 PM  

Celerian: Witness99: This comment will be considered "trolling" (whatever, adolescent waste of time that the younger people came up with - I honestly don't understand the draw...why would one waste time like that?) But here's my comment. You young girls, going out and getting so liquored up you become UNCONSCIOUS....shame on you too. You are being disrespectful to your body, to your spirit and putting yourself in dangerous situations. You are not without accountability. GROW A PAIR and put the Farking drink down, no matter how many frat twats are trying to get you wasted.

Women, you need to stop hiding behind this shiat. You are in control of your body and what happens to it. Put your big girl panties on and stop with the whining and sniffling.

I don't think anyone has disagreed with that sentiment either, but just because they drink to unconsciousness  does not mean they have to be raped. You know, in our culture, when someone repeatedly drinks until they do stupid shiat or they pass out, we start to chide them for their stupid behavior and constant drinking?


I never implied they deserved to get raped. What I'm saying is, grow a Farking brain and stop playing the victim. There are sharks in these waters. If you regularly find yourself in a state incapable of making wise decisions, you will become a victim. If you think it's ok to pound nine shots at a party and don't guard your drink (which could be rufied), you could become a victim. If you find yourself naked in a strangers house on the weekend, with no memory of the past night, you are not protecting yourself. Stop the sniffling...be proactive and make smart choices. Yes, some men will take advantage and I'm in no way excusing them. PROTECT YOURSELF. Its really not that complicated. Don't pass out at parties.
 
2013-03-18 05:09:04 PM  

Biological Ali: serial_crusher: Suppose somebody breaks into your house and steals all your stuff, so you mosey on down to the police station to file a report. Cop starts asking tough questions like "did you leave the door unlocked?", "do you have a dog?", "oh, you forgot to set your alarm system that day?"

What the fark? I've reported missing/stolen property in the past and haven't been asked any of those questions. What earthly reason would there even be for asking something like "Do you have a dog?"


One night, a cab driver apparently thought since I had been drinking, it was acceptable to put his hands on me.  I reported him.  The responding police officers asked me at least 4 times "were you drunk?", "were you intoxicated?", "had you been drinking?", etc.  Um, duh.  This is why I called the cab.

I got a call about a month later telling me that the WEEK BEFORE (3 weeks after I filed the complaint), the investigator called the cab company and that they denied having anyone with his name/description working there.

I was horrified at the number of people throughout the process (including friends) who blamed me for sitting in the front seat, for not getting out of the car (we were going 65 mph down the freeway), etc., and I was just TOUCHED by the guy.

You know if he did that to me, I wasn't the first or last...but the system didn't seem all that concerned.
 
2013-03-18 05:13:01 PM  

Celerian: IF SOMEONE IS PASSED OUT DRUNK


Yes, if. A little proof of that is all I'm asking for.
 
2013-03-18 05:32:49 PM  
These morons undressed and jammed their hands (and who knows what else) up an unconscious girl's vagina. That is rape.
Then they took video and pictures of the act, laughing as they did so. That is callous.
Later, they posted the pictures and video of the half naked and violated girl on the internet for the entire planet to view. That is just f*cked up.

F*ck them.
F*ck their football team and the coaches that knew about this.
F*ck anyone else in that town that went along with it.
And f*ck these "reporters" from CNN square in the ass with a rusty fencepost.
/what if that was one of their daughters?
 
2013-03-18 05:33:59 PM  
It's so sad and sick how there are still people who think that females being able to do anything beyond "be the property of men" justifies men raping them, beating them, and killing them. Their "She deserves to be "punished" for her transgression of getting drunk/stoned by being violently violated" attitude is also incredibly disgusting.
 
2013-03-18 05:35:31 PM  

deana: and I was just TOUCHED by the guy.


I'll add this to my theory of how our legal system deals with rape from several pages earlier- how do we define rape? Is rape a crime of degrees, or all-or-nothing? The circumstances you describe have even less physical evidence than actual rape does- how do you convict someone of a crime that leaves no physical evidence, and, in your case, doesn't even leave physical evidence of injury (even if there was mental distress, which is much harder to prove)? I don't think the problem is necessarily that the system wasn't concerned. I think it's that the system has no way to effectively deal with your experience. Out of curiosity- what kind of outcome did you expect/want? The driver to be fired? Convicted of assault? Placed on a sex offender list?
 
2013-03-18 05:39:20 PM  

Genevieve Marie: Honestly I think that's what's so shocking about this case. There were a lot of people there, and apparently not one teenager at that party had been taught how to look out for others or what to do if they saw a young woman being abused.


I recall one witness' testimony that he saw the girl penetrated and didn't know what to do.  He said he didn't even know it was rape.  That was a teachable moment for moms and dads everywhere!

And maybe his teachable moment occurred before he testified, in his lawyer's office.  "You didn't know Ohio's legal definition of rape, so you can say you didn't know this was rape."  Hell, he could have cobbled that one together himself.

"Look out for others" always translates into "look out for others like you," the ones to  whom you feel some connection.  Everyone to whom you feel no connection, or one which you feel less strongly, is dispensable.

It seems to come down to feeling the strongest connection to yourself.  Pride is concern for what you feel about yourself.  Vanity is concern for what others feel about you.  Tom Sawyer was vain; Huck Finn was proud. "Huckleberry don't give a shiat," goes an annoying voice in my head.

And now I'm rambling.  Where the fark is my damned "submit" button?
 
2013-03-18 05:41:48 PM  
So Candy Crowley and Poppy Harlow are just like this thread, then?

These poor, poor boys.  Tempted by a woman both unconscious and in possession of orifii.  Literally nothing else they could have done but cart her around town and  penetrate her randomly.
 
2013-03-18 05:41:57 PM  
There isn't any way they're going to be locked up that long anyway. Once word gets out that they're rapists they'll find out just how it feels to get raped. Their lives wil be ruined? Their assholes will be ruined. Evil bastards get what evil bastards deserve. I'm not wishing ill will on them. Just making a matter-of-fact statement.
 
2013-03-18 05:42:54 PM  

juvandy: deana: and I was just TOUCHED by the guy.

I'll add this to my theory of how our legal system deals with rape from several pages earlier- how do we define rape? Is rape a crime of degrees, or all-or-nothing? The circumstances you describe have even less physical evidence than actual rape does- how do you convict someone of a crime that leaves no physical evidence, and, in your case, doesn't even leave physical evidence of injury (even if there was mental distress, which is much harder to prove)? I don't think the problem is necessarily that the system wasn't concerned. I think it's that the system has no way to effectively deal with your experience. Out of curiosity- what kind of outcome did you expect/want? The driver to be fired? Convicted of assault? Placed on a sex offender list?


Scared.  I wanted him scared.  I wanted him to think he was being watched and maybe, hopefully that would deter him from doing something worse to someone else.

Apparently, from what the investigator told me, they had several complaints about someone with his (first) name and description but for some reason, they couldn't find him.

And from what I was told when I called asking what I should do, the answering officer told me that technically, it WAS assault.
 
2013-03-18 05:44:56 PM  

deana: One night, a cab driver apparently thought since I had been drinking, it was acceptable to put his hands on me. I reported him. The responding police officers asked me at least 4 times "were you drunk?", "were you intoxicated?", "had you been drinking?", etc. Um, duh. This is why I called the cab.

I got a call about a month later telling me that the WEEK BEFORE (3 weeks after I filed the complaint), the investigator called the cab company and that they denied having anyone with his name/description working there.

I was horrified at the number of people throughout the process (including friends) who blamed me for sitting in the front seat, for not getting out of the car (we were going 65 mph down the freeway), etc., and I was just TOUCHED by the guy.

You know if he did that to me, I wasn't the first or last...but the system didn't seem all that concerned.


There are a few valid reasons for the cops to want to know whether the person had been drinking. The most obvious is that, depending on how drunk the individual was, he or she may not even have been legally capable of giving consent, which would make it an important detail for the prosecution. In this case for instance, the victim being intoxicated to the level she was turned out to be pretty damning for the accused.

But yeah - a lot of people seem to think that the person being drunk at the time should somehow work in the accused's favour or be held against the victim, which is a completely backwards way of looking at it. One can only hope that notions like these aren't too prevalent among the police as well as in the court system.
 
2013-03-18 05:46:09 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Celerian: IF SOMEONE IS PASSED OUT DRUNK

Yes, if. A little proof of that is all I'm asking for.


You keep asking for that, and yet you don't seem to accept the pictures of her being carried around by her arms and legs, looking like a sack of flour, nor do you accept the video of the people at the party who were talking about her as the dead girl and making jokes about her being unconscious.

I'm not sure what more proof you want than images showing her unconscious and videos where people are discussing that she's unconscious.
 
2013-03-18 05:47:38 PM  

Genevieve Marie: Honestly I think that's what's so shocking about this case. There were a lot of people there, and apparently not one teenager at that party had been taught how to look out for others or what to do if they saw a young woman being abused.


If you watch the repulsively heinous video that was made by some of the other boys at the party, you hear snippets from at least 2-3 other boys saying it is rape and the boys doing it are bad, going to hell, etc. I think at least some of them genuinely knew it was wrong, but alcohol mixed with peer pressure made them unwilling to do anything to address it. Fundamentally, the scenario isn't that much different from "trains" in gang culture. I can't remember the author/title, but I read an autobiography a while back written by a reformed gang member from the 70s/80s, and his experience in a similar situation was that he was appalled, but at the same time didn't want to show weakness in front of his "brothers" and also wanted to lose his virginity. It's sickening, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the mindset of the other boys there.
 
2013-03-18 05:49:33 PM  

Genevieve Marie: Popcorn Johnny: Celerian: IF SOMEONE IS PASSED OUT DRUNK

Yes, if. A little proof of that is all I'm asking for.

You keep asking for that, and yet you don't seem to accept the pictures of her being carried around by her arms and legs, looking like a sack of flour, nor do you accept the video of the people at the party who were talking about her as the dead girl and making jokes about her being unconscious.

I'm not sure what more proof you want than images showing her unconscious and videos where people are discussing that she's unconscious.


Well, who's he supposed to believe? Them or his own lying mind?
 
2013-03-18 05:51:48 PM  

juvandy: Genevieve Marie: Honestly I think that's what's so shocking about this case. There were a lot of people there, and apparently not one teenager at that party had been taught how to look out for others or what to do if they saw a young woman being abused.

If you watch the repulsively heinous video that was made by some of the other boys at the party, you hear snippets from at least 2-3 other boys saying it is rape and the boys doing it are bad, going to hell, etc. I think at least some of them genuinely knew it was wrong, but alcohol mixed with peer pressure made them unwilling to do anything to address it. Fundamentally, the scenario isn't that much different from "trains" in gang culture. I can't remember the author/title, but I read an autobiography a while back written by a reformed gang member from the 70s/80s, and his experience in a similar situation was that he was appalled, but at the same time didn't want to show weakness in front of his "brothers" and also wanted to lose his virginity. It's sickening, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the mindset of the other boys there.


Yup, and that's definitely something that can and should be addressed in rape prevention education- the damage it does when someone sits back like that. Teaching teenagers how to be leaders and how to have the confidence and the moral fiber to react appropriately is something that in my opinion, can and should be done.

I mean, my parents drilled into me the need to watch out for others, and my freshman year of high school two girls got so drunk they passed out and people were hosing them with cold water to try and revive them. I flipped them onto their sides so they couldn't choke on their vomit and sat with them while someone else called the cops.

Both myself and the person who called the cops were ostracized a bit for a week or so after that, but neither of us cared, and no one died or got raped so we considered it a win.

If my parents could teach that, it CAN be taught.
 
2013-03-18 05:52:51 PM  

vudukungfu: LiteWerk: These scum-sucking dogs will remain "sex offenders" until the day they die.

I'm sure someone has already purchased the domain names to their names and associated it with the crime, already.


They're both parked at GoDaddy.

TrentMay dot com (no trailing "s") seems to be suspended by its host.  After a few seconds it  redirects to a 404 php script on branddeaonline dot com.  Truncating to just the domain name reveals a "free game console" scam of some sort.

Infinite enterprise has the Internet.
 
2013-03-18 05:52:56 PM  

Biological Ali: There are a few valid reasons for the cops to want to know whether the person had been drinking. The most obvious is that, depending on how drunk the individual was, he or she may not even have been legally capable of giving consent, which would make it an important detail for the prosecution. In this case for instance, the victim being intoxicated to the level she was turned out to be pretty damning for the accused.

But yeah - a lot of people seem to think that the person being drunk at the time should somehow work in the accused's favour or be held against the victim, which is a completely backwards way of looking at it. One can only hope that notions like these aren't too prevalent among the police as well as in the court system.


The problem with the latter is that in a scenario which leaves no lasting physical evidence and no eyewitnesses (as many rapes do), then convicting the perpetrator relies solely on the victim's eyewitness account. If the victim was drunk, then their eyewitness account may not be admissible as evidence because the victim's state of mind, memory, etc. can all be affected by the intoxication. I don't know of a good solution for that.
 
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