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(Opposing Views)   CNN host Candy Crowley and reporter Poppy Harlow are almost in tears over the "ruined lives" of the two Steubenville, Ohio teen football players who were found guilty of gang-raping a 16-year-old girl   (opposingviews.com) divider line 659
    More: Sick, Steubenville, Candy Crowley, Poppy Harlow, CNN, CNN host, Ohio, guilty verdicts, rapists  
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20126 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Mar 2013 at 6:09 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-18 02:48:14 PM

Genevieve Marie: Contrabulous Flabtraption: Is it a crime to get so drunk you can't say no? No, but it is stupid and invites this sort of thing

No, it doesn't "invite" this sort of thing.

These boys could very easily have called someone to get her, or carried her onto a couch and let her sleep it off. That would have been the smart choice for them to make.

Instead they chose to sexually assault her and degrade her.

This is the problem with making the narrative about the victim's choices. It always seems to conveniently gloss over the fact that the rapists had a choice too, and the one they made actually IS illegal.


Because the victims choices can totally control a third person's actions.

Amirite guy?

/funny, I have had my girl friends get completely passed out/puking hammered around me (albeit not recently), yet I have never felt like fingering one was an appropriate response, ever.  If the victims dress/intoxication/flirtiness/reputation is what causes guys to rape them, shouldn't we gals be effected the same way?  I mean, since it was kinda her fault and she needed to be taught a lesson.
 
2013-03-18 02:48:18 PM

tlars699: Perhaps a better choice of words would be "it presents an opportunity to be taken advantage of by those who do not have your best interests in mind, which they may not have had otherwise".

And it is a crime for a 16 year old to get so drunk she can't say no. Because she's underage.


And this is all stuff it's fair to bring up in a discussion about underage drinking. The problem with focusing any discussion about a rape case on the actions of the victim is that it tends to gloss over or justify the actions of the perpetrator.
 
2013-03-18 02:50:35 PM

Genevieve Marie: This is the problem with making the narrative about the victim's choices. It always seems to conveniently gloss over the fact that the rapists had a choice too, and the one they made actually IS illegal.


When a problem is being adequately addressed in court, it is not being "glossed over."  A problem that is not being addressed merits discussion.
 
2013-03-18 02:51:02 PM

ginandbacon: I am getting a little pissed off at this idea that it is a victim's responsibility to undergo what I have heard is a terrible ordeal by reporting their own assault in order to prevent future rapes. It isn't and no one should have to face that kind of guilt trip. Ever. It is the rapist's responsibility to prevent rape. Full stop.


This has come up in threads before and it's always hard for me to read too.
 
2013-03-18 02:51:59 PM

WhippingBoy: tlars699: What? No. I don't think you men walk around without concern for your safety.
 I think you walk around without concern that you will be raped.

Your previous argument that I live in a constant "paranoid" fear that I may be raped at any given opportunity is correct.
It is ALWAYS in my mind that I could be attacked, especially when vulnerable.

I'm glad that your lack of concern about such is apparent, and that you don't have to worry about being physically violated in places most people keep intimately guarded, unlike me.
You worry about being robbed, beaten, killed. I worry about being robbed, beaten, killed, AND RAPED.
Do you see the difference?

I don't think I'll be able to articulate this very well, but I'll try my best.
In my world view, it's as bad (if not worse) to be killed than it is to be raped. It's also statistically more likely that I'll be randomly killed (or have the quality of my life incredibly impacted) than you will be randomly raped (or killed). In this context, I've got more to worry about than you do, but for some reason, you seem to be summarily dismissing my concerns.

In short, my interpretation of your comments is that you seem to feel that it's far worse to rape a woman than it is to kill a man.


[citation needed]

/dude, you are either seriously paranoid and should probably seek help, or are involved in some dangerous criminal enterprise if you chances of getting killed are greater than a woman's chances of getting raped.
 
2013-03-18 02:54:00 PM

Bullseyed: feckingmorons: penthesilea: [i470.photobucket.com image 500x333]

Shameful.

Contrast that with FoxNews who quotes the mother of the young woman who was criminally assaulted saying "[This crime]does not define who my daughter is. She will persevere, grow and move on."

That is exactly the story that needs to be told. Crime victims, and especially victims of sexual battery, are indeed victims. The criminals are not to be pitied for their poor choices, they are to be imprisoned.

Like Fox News or not (and I don't really watch any of the cable news) that is the right story, not how these two idiots ruined their lives by engaging in criminal sexual battery and other crimes. Screw them.

I agree with you and disagree at the same time. The story that the news should be telling is indeed the one Fox is telling.

At the same time, since this kind of thing does still happen, there needs to be a big bold notice of "if you do this you will ruin your entire life" to hammer it through the skulls of idiots. The hand-wringing Nancy Grace tears are completely inappropriate though.

Perhaps CNN is targeting a dumber audience.

/liberals are the dumber audience


Yes, F*X News is right, even when they air the victim's name.

/I don't care how in the tank for the rapists CNN et al are, at least they didn't air the victim's name.
 
2013-03-18 02:55:58 PM

Yogimus: Typhoid: /I couldn't. I was 16. I didn't know him. And I was still terrified to come forward because of crap like this.

Probably why you were targeted.


Well that did it. You are now favorited as "rapist". Good job!
 
2013-03-18 02:58:26 PM

Genevieve Marie: Kahabut: I'm not really ok with either of those options, do you think we could come up with something else?

Um... I'm not quite sure why you consider advocating that we teach sexual consent as part of sex education an extreme position?


Teaching "don't rape", which may or may not be your particular message, is extreme.  Do we teach "don't murder", or "don't steal" or "don't lie"?  Then it's extreme, because it's something EVERYONE is supposed to know, and apparently they don't.  (that doesn't make you an extremist, but you are in company with some, please don't doubt it)

It's also terribly insulting to be grouped with a bunch of people by another group of people, who then label all of us as rapists, and label themselves as victims.  Insulting, depressing, and frankly, I have a better solution.

If you forcibly rape anyone, ever, you lose your genitals.  PERIOD.  If you do it again, you lose your life.  Fix that problem right up.  Then all we have to do is teach young women that crying rape is in fact a terribly serious thing and if they falsely do it they suffer the punishment.  That will clear up the OTHER side of the problem, and we can all go about our rape free lives.
 
2013-03-18 02:59:45 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Genevieve Marie: This is the problem with making the narrative about the victim's choices. It always seems to conveniently gloss over the fact that the rapists had a choice too, and the one they made actually IS illegal.

When a problem is being adequately addressed in court, it is not being "glossed over."  A problem that is not being addressed merits discussion.


Except the idea that women have a responsibility to constantly watch out for rapists is not a problem that isn't being addressed. It's something that's been addressed ad nauseam. Ask almost any woman alive and she'll be able to give you a run down of all the ways in which she watches out for her personal safety at all times.

We're on that. We got it. Teaching women how not to get raped has been the core of rape prevention strategy forever. It's tiresome. We get it, and most of us follow all those little rules all of the time, but sometimes you have a bad night. I know there have definitely been a few nights in my life where for whatever reason, I had too much to drink. I wasn't raped though- because there wasn't a rapist in the room with me. That's the x factor. The decision to drink too much does not necessarily have destructive consequences.

It's not helpful or productive to look at cases where a woman passed out or otherwise let down her guard and point to that as the cause of the rape. Like I said, had there not been rapists in the room, she would have been put to bed and left alone. A crime didn't occur because she got drunk and passed out, a crime occurred because someone chose to commit one.
 
2013-03-18 02:59:53 PM

WhippingBoy: tlars699: What? No. I don't think you men walk around without concern for your safety.
 I think you walk around without concern that you will be raped.

Your previous argument that I live in a constant "paranoid" fear that I may be raped at any given opportunity is correct.
It is ALWAYS in my mind that I could be attacked, especially when vulnerable.

I'm glad that your lack of concern about such is apparent, and that you don't have to worry about being physically violated in places most people keep intimately guarded, unlike me.
You worry about being robbed, beaten, killed. I worry about being robbed, beaten, killed, AND RAPED.
Do you see the difference?

I don't think I'll be able to articulate this very well, but I'll try my best.
In my world view, it's as bad (if not worse) to be killed than it is to be raped. It's also statistically more likely that I'll be randomly killed (or have the quality of my life incredibly impacted) than you will be randomly raped (or killed). In this context, I've got more to worry about than you do, but for some reason, you seem to be summarily dismissing my concerns.

In short, my interpretation of your comments is that you seem to feel that it's far worse to rape a woman than it is to kill a man.


Alternatively, you seem to be dismissing that "rape culture" exists [despite the fact that every woman is expected and raised to feel this way about any situation where they could possibly be raped] simply because you have it "worse".
At least when someone stabs/robs you, you will more likely than not have physical evidence of such that cannot be as summarily dismissed as rape charges are, most frequently with "Well, what was she wearing?"

It is far worse to be a survivor of rape [regardless of sex/gender], than it is to be a survivor of other physical violence [regardless of sex/gender] as rape is a violation of the most intimate places on a human body, and that fact that our culture promotes this "It must have been partially *your* fault, you slutty/stupid person, you" mentality.
 
2013-03-18 03:02:04 PM

ginandbacon: I am getting a little pissed off at this idea that it is a victim's responsibility to undergo what I have heard is a terrible ordeal by reporting their own assault in order to prevent future rapes. It isn't and no one should have to face that kind of guilt trip. Ever. It is the rapist's responsibility to prevent rape. Full stop.


I agree with your first sentence, but then...

Ladies & gentlemen, allow me to present Pope Frances I.

www.coffeebeanery.com
 
2013-03-18 03:02:58 PM

BarkingUnicorn: tlars699: BarkingUnicorn: tlars699: BarkingUnicorn: RedT: 
This is simply the situation in this country.

Yet, many people don't want to admit that we have a rape culture and want to get offended by the phrase.  But our culture teaches us (both men and women) that gals must be on the lookout at ALL TIMES for potential rape situations.

That's not "culture"?  Bullshiat.

Your daydreams are not our culture.  They're not even every woman's daydreams.

I prescribe Zen meditation.

6/10

No, seriously, Zen would help free her from the illusions of past and future so that she could be happy in the here and now.

Quite true; Zen would help with that. However, it is your previous assessment of her "daydreams" that I find to be troll-ish.

If trolling still means, "comments that provoke exaggerated emotional responses," then her original comment was a troll that happened to fail on me.  I deliberately exercised restraint to avoid trolling while refuting hers.


frynotsureifconcerntrollingorepictrolling.jpeg
 
2013-03-18 03:03:15 PM
tlars699, I can't figure out if we are being trolled or are just beating our heads against a wall.

\I fear the latter
 
2013-03-18 03:05:18 PM

gunther_bumpass: Yogimus: Typhoid: /I couldn't. I was 16. I didn't know him. And I was still terrified to come forward because of crap like this.

Probably why you were targeted.

Well that did it. You are now favorited as "rapist". Good job!


What an irrational train of thought.

/i mean yours, gunther
 
2013-03-18 03:06:53 PM

Genevieve Marie: ginandbacon: I am getting a little pissed off at this idea that it is a victim's responsibility to undergo what I have heard is a terrible ordeal by reporting their own assault in order to prevent future rapes. It isn't and no one should have to face that kind of guilt trip. Ever. It is the rapist's responsibility to prevent rape. Full stop.

This has come up in threads before and it's always hard for me to read too.


It is shameful and disgusting. And I seriously hope none of the insensitive assholes is ever in a position to spew this crap at a victim. None of the women I know who were raped reported it and I don't see how that makes them any part of the problem we are discussing. I consider victims who do report to be almost incomprehensibly brave given how they are treated inmost cases by LE, doctors, the courts, and friends, family, and acquaintances. 

Guess what? If the victims of rape felt like it was safe to report rape,  they would.
 
2013-03-18 03:06:54 PM
The boys are guilty. End of that part. Rapists should be drawn and quartered IMO.

Will they give the girl a citation for underage drinking?
She deserves one.
 
2013-03-18 03:08:33 PM

RedT: WhippingBoy: tlars699: What? No. I don't think you men walk around without concern for your safety.
 I think you walk around without concern that you will be raped.

Your previous argument that I live in a constant "paranoid" fear that I may be raped at any given opportunity is correct.
It is ALWAYS in my mind that I could be attacked, especially when vulnerable.

I'm glad that your lack of concern about such is apparent, and that you don't have to worry about being physically violated in places most people keep intimately guarded, unlike me.
You worry about being robbed, beaten, killed. I worry about being robbed, beaten, killed, AND RAPED.
Do you see the difference?

I don't think I'll be able to articulate this very well, but I'll try my best.
In my world view, it's as bad (if not worse) to be killed than it is to be raped. It's also statistically more likely that I'll be randomly killed (or have the quality of my life incredibly impacted) than you will be randomly raped (or killed). In this context, I've got more to worry about than you do, but for some reason, you seem to be summarily dismissing my concerns.

In short, my interpretation of your comments is that you seem to feel that it's far worse to rape a woman than it is to kill a man.

[citation needed]

/dude, you are either seriously paranoid and should probably seek help, or are involved in some dangerous criminal enterprise if you chances of getting killed are greater than a woman's chances of getting raped.


http://­w­ww­4­*hrs­dc*gc*ca/*3­n­dic*1t­*4r[nospam-﹫-backwards]gne-*js­p?iid=61#M_2
 
2013-03-18 03:09:25 PM

Kahabut: Genevieve Marie: Kahabut: I'm not really ok with either of those options, do you think we could come up with something else?

Um... I'm not quite sure why you consider advocating that we teach sexual consent as part of sex education an extreme position?

Teaching "don't rape", which may or may not be your particular message, is extreme.  Do we teach "don't murder", or "don't steal" or "don't lie"?  Then it's extreme, because it's something EVERYONE is supposed to know, and apparently they don't.  (that doesn't make you an extremist, but you are in company with some, please don't doubt it)

It's also terribly insulting to be grouped with a bunch of people by another group of people, who then label all of us as rapists, and label themselves as victims.  Insulting, depressing, and frankly, I have a better solution.

If you forcibly rape anyone, ever, you lose your genitals.  PERIOD.  If you do it again, you lose your life.  Fix that problem right up.  Then all we have to do is teach young women that crying rape is in fact a terribly serious thing and if they falsely do it they suffer the punishment.  That will clear up the OTHER side of the problem, and we can all go about our rape free lives.


Of course we actively teach kids not to steal and not to lie. And while we may not explicitly teach "don't murder", we certainly teach kids not to hurt other kids. From a very young age, most kids are taught that stealing, lying, and using violence against other people is not acceptable. However? We don't have open and honest conversations with young people about sex. Mostly, all they hear is "Sex is bad, don't do it" which leaves them woefully unprepared to deal with the reality that they are going to want to have it and they're going to have a lot of questions about it.

When I say people should be taught not to rape what I mean is that teenagers need to be taught sexual consent. They need to understand that it is always their right to say no, but it is also their right to say yes. That sex is a positive thing when both partners enthusiastically consent and when proper medical precautions are taken. That's a healthy thing to teach.

Right now, they get this weird dynamic where boys need to have sex to be a man, but girls who have sex are considered sluts and whores. We set up a dynamic where boys are taught not to take no seriously,  because all girls are supposed to say no, even when they really want it. We set up a dynamic where girls don't feel like they can actively say yes without being considered dirty. Throw in some alcohol and you have a pretty negative thing going on that can easily snowball out of control.

So yea, we need to totally rework how we treat sex as a country if we have any hope of preventing these kinds of situations.  And people need to stop acting like it's a horrific thing to suggest that they teach young men positive ideas about sexuality and about consent. Like I said- you'd teach your young boy not  to steal and not think twice about it.
 
2013-03-18 03:15:00 PM

Genevieve Marie: So we're supposed to constantly take responsibility for protecting ourselves from rape and yet not talk about the ways in which we do that, lest we be considered paranoid, or like we're crazy and we think all men are potential rapists.



I've never accused a woman of being too paranoid based on a description of ways in which she protects herself. It would be something like preemptively incapacitating a perceived attacker with pepper spray before he actually did anything.

My issue is with women who say, "Is it too hard to teach men not to rape?"  Because that's precisely when they reposition the argument into accusing me of a being a rapist based solely on my gender.

How is my ability to do "teach" such a thing that is obvious to me, any different than her ability to "teach" it. I promise I would reprogram the minds of an entire culture if I knew how.
 
2013-03-18 03:18:07 PM

Genevieve Marie: ginandbacon: I am getting a little pissed off at this idea that it is a victim's responsibility to undergo what I have heard is a terrible ordeal by reporting their own assault in order to prevent future rapes. It isn't and no one should have to face that kind of guilt trip. Ever. It is the rapist's responsibility to prevent rape. Full stop.

This has come up in threads before and it's always hard for me to read too.


True, but asking a rapist to prevent rape.... I don't think that's going to go over so well. You should NEVER further vicitimize a victim(i.e. guilt trips about future victims), but you can promote each victim as being a pillar or strength whether or not they report it, and get recognition for being truly epically awesome when they do report it.

Also, I'm all for more factual education about all of this, but there will still be rapists among us, in that they get off on it *because* it is super-duper-bad, illegal, etc., and some of these rape-y-rapers will do their best to get away with it through intimidation, harassment, or even more violence, blackmail, etc.
 
2013-03-18 03:18:35 PM

Genevieve Marie: BarkingUnicorn: Genevieve Marie: This is the problem with making the narrative about the victim's choices. It always seems to conveniently gloss over the fact that the rapists had a choice too, and the one they made actually IS illegal.

When a problem is being adequately addressed in court, it is not being "glossed over."  A problem that is not being addressed merits discussion.

Except the idea that women have a responsibility to constantly watch out for rapists is not a problem that isn't being addressed. It's something that's been addressed ad nauseam. Ask almost any woman alive and she'll be able to give you a run down of all the ways in which she watches out for her personal safety at all times.

We're on that. We got it. Teaching women how not to get raped has been the core of rape prevention strategy forever. It's tiresome. We get it, and most of us follow all those little rules all of the time, but sometimes you have a bad night. I know there have definitely been a few nights in my life where for whatever reason, I had too much to drink. I wasn't raped though- because there wasn't a rapist in the room with me. That's the x factor. The decision to drink too much does not necessarily have destructive consequences.

It's not helpful or productive to look at cases where a woman passed out or otherwise let down her guard and point to that as the cause of the rape. Like I said, had there not been rapists in the room, she would have been put to bed and left alone. A crime didn't occur because she got drunk and passed out, a crime occurred because someone chose to commit one.


So you're pretty confident they would've stripped her naked and shoved their fingers into her if she were sober and capable of resisting?  If no, I don't BLAME her but she's got a hand in this.  If yes, then these two are monsters without a shred of conscience and could not be educated not to harm things because they've spent their childhood ritually burning puppies.
 
2013-03-18 03:20:06 PM

RedT: [citation needed]

/dude, you are either seriously paranoid and should probably seek help, or are involved in some dangerous criminal enterprise if you chances of getting killed are greater than a woman's chances of getting raped.


Here's another citation from the US Bureau of Justice Statistics:  Violent Victimization Committed by Strangers, 1993-2010

It's a report on violent victimization committed by strangers (which is what we're talking about) from 1993-2010.
Please note the following paragraph:

In 2010, males experienced violent victimizations by strangers at nearly twice the rate of females (figure 2). The rate of violence against males by strangers was 9.5 victimizations per 1,000 males in 2010 compared to 4.7 victimizations per 1,000 females.
 
2013-03-18 03:20:46 PM

tlars699: It is far worse to be a survivor of rape [regardless of sex/gender], than it is to be a survivor of other physical violence [regardless of sex/gender] as rape is a violation of the most intimate places on a human body.


i disagree with you. unless you can provide some research that supports this absurd notion (which you won't because you can't) you are minimizing and trivializing the suffering of countless others who are victims or physical assault, drunk driving accidents, hazing, and any other number of ways that human beings can be vicious and cruel to each other.

under what code do you elevate the genitals of one person over the brain or internal organs of another? you are falsely constructing some bizarre hierarchy of suffering simply because you say the symbolism of one body part trumps another.

in the past i worked in MH/MR, and one guy i worked with was a smart guy, academic...before he got brained with a pipe. he then commenced to shout obscenities involuntarily and had to wear a diaper because of fecal and urinary incontinence. he was at least 4 years in when i got there, and he was still there when i left.

Please answer this question: Who are you to say that his suffering and "survivorship" is less than a victim of sexual assault?
 
2013-03-18 03:23:13 PM

Pangea: Genevieve Marie: So we're supposed to constantly take responsibility for protecting ourselves from rape and yet not talk about the ways in which we do that, lest we be considered paranoid, or like we're crazy and we think all men are potential rapists.


I've never accused a woman of being too paranoid based on a description of ways in which she protects herself. It would be something like preemptively incapacitating a perceived attacker with pepper spray before he actually did anything.

My issue is with women who say, "Is it too hard to teach men not to rape?"  Because that's precisely when they reposition the argument into accusing me of a being a rapist based solely on my gender.

How is my ability to do "teach" such a thing that is obvious to me, any different than her ability to "teach" it. I promise I would reprogram the minds of an entire culture if I knew how.


Not all men are rapists, but it's a statistical fact that most rapists are men. If that makes you uncomfortable I'm sorry, but it's factual. It's also factual that there's a weird gender dynamic surrounding sex, which I've described a few times, and it produces situations like this one.

So while it is obvious to you how sexual consent works, there are other men who it is clearly not obvious to and it would benefit society if that conversation became as much a part of raising a child as don't cheat, lie, steal, beat people up or talk back to adults.

The worst that happens in that situation is that all of the great young men who already have positive ideas about sex and sexuality have to sit through yet another boring lecture about something they already understand.
 
2013-03-18 03:23:13 PM

tlars699: Genevieve Marie: ginandbacon: I am getting a little pissed off at this idea that it is a victim's responsibility to undergo what I have heard is a terrible ordeal by reporting their own assault in order to prevent future rapes. It isn't and no one should have to face that kind of guilt trip. Ever. It is the rapist's responsibility to prevent rape. Full stop.

This has come up in threads before and it's always hard for me to read too.

True, but asking a rapist to prevent rape.... I don't think that's going to go over so well. You should NEVER further vicitimize a victim(i.e. guilt trips about future victims), but you can promote each victim as being a pillar or strength whether or not they report it, and get recognition for being truly epically awesome when they do report it.

Also, I'm all for more factual education about all of this, but there will still be rapists among us, in that they get off on it *because* it is super-duper-bad, illegal, etc., and some of these rape-y-rapers will do their best to get away with it through intimidation, harassment, or even more violence, blackmail, etc.


Then the solution is quite obvious. Eliminate the culture of rape that makes it so difficult for victims to come forward since they are apparently the only people capable of stopping rape.

Or, you know, we could try to change the power dynamic between men and women so that rape is never seen as acceptable. That would have saved this girl. If even one person had stood up to these guys or called 911, we wouldn't be having this asinine conversation today.
 
2013-03-18 03:25:40 PM

TommyymmoT: If any trained circus monkey in the NFL, NBA, NHL NASCAR etc, is your child's role model, you have failed as a parent.


Then most Americans fail as parents: what do fathers watch on TV on weekends?

I'm not surprised that two media females would take the rapists' parts: servile worship of the jock Alpha Male almost always trumps the vaunted Sisterhood.

In other news, female talking heads on CNN have stripper names.
 
2013-03-18 03:28:01 PM
WhippingBoy:

 It's also statistically more likely that I'll be randomly killed (or have the quality of my life incredibly impacted) than you will be randomly raped (or killed).


Murder (in Canada)

One of every 17 Canadian women is raped at some point in her life.  Couldn't find an exact number, but according to Wiki for every 1.9 murders there are 68 sexual assaults (rape is not used in the Canadian legal code)

You may want to look at this (although you are not likely to believe any of it)
 
2013-03-18 03:30:31 PM

RatMaster999: Rhombic: As the father of a teenage girl I consider rape a capital crime.

As a guy with no kids and no sisters, I have to agree.


I tend to agree, too, but...

It's a tricky thing.  Sexual assault tends to be under-reported, especially if the victim fears being accused of egging on predators by how she's dressed, or has had an involuntary orgasm.  Or, if it's a man, vaginal/anal intercourse and an involuntary erection/ejaculation.  The shame of the thing keeps people quiet.

Having said that, after having conversations with more radically feminist people, I've discovered I'm a serial rapist.  No joke.  My wife and I didn't have any kind of vaginal intercourse until we were married, but we certainly "fooled around" before then.  By the way these laws work, I raped her.  This from a guy who didn't even  kiss herfor nearly three months.  I was petrified to do  anything with her. Not long after we got married, more than once we had middle-of-the-night sex.  Funny thing is, she never remembered it!  I'd roll over, she'd respond, we'd do our thing...and a couple of times, we'd be in the middle of a wrestling match and she'd start muttering in a way that told me she was asleep.

I've talked to her about it, and she thought it was a riot.  Honestly, she thought it was funny, then thought I was crazy when I tried to get her to take me seriously.  She in no way feels like a victim.  But in some ways, we've taken this deeply shame-ridden act, something women have trouble reporting because many times they're actually shamed into not reporting it, and...we've widened the definition so that all a girl has to do is blurt out "no" right before the guy ejaculates, and it's rape.  I doubt there are many women who report it, but I can't think it's uncommon given that I've known more than one woman who did it to a guy she was angry with and wanted to lash out at.  You think no women use the system as a weapon?  That's cute.

Having said that, I want my daughters and other women in my life to have every legal tool they can to fight back if they're ever victims.
 
2013-03-18 03:31:21 PM

Super_pope: f no, I don't BLAME her but she's got a hand in this


Sigh. No. No she doesn't. She shouldn't have drank enough alcohol to become incapacitated because she's a minor and it's illegal, but that still does not mean that her actions caused her rape or that she bears any responsibility for the fact that she was raped.

The actions those boys took were so heinous and so obviously morally reprehensible that it should have been obvious to everyone at the party that this was wrong. The correct course of action should have been very obvious: Call someone to pick her up or put her in bed alone to sleep it off. They did not choose to take the correct course of action. They chose to rape her, degrade her, and they did it in front of a room full of laughing people.

The idea that because she was incapacitated, she was automatically at risk for rape treats rape like a natural threat. Like something women have an obligation to fend off. Once again, this isn't true- this girl was raped because these boys chose to rape her.
 
2013-03-18 03:34:08 PM

Pangea: Genevieve Marie: So we're supposed to constantly take responsibility for protecting ourselves from rape and yet not talk about the ways in which we do that, lest we be considered paranoid, or like we're crazy and we think all men are potential rapists.


I've never accused a woman of being too paranoid based on a description of ways in which she protects herself. It would be something like preemptively incapacitating a perceived attacker with pepper spray before he actually did anything.

My issue is with women who say, "Is it too hard to teach men not to rape?"  Because that's precisely when they reposition the argument into accusing me of a being a rapist based solely on my gender.

How is my ability to do "teach" such a thing that is obvious to me, any different than her ability to "teach" it. I promise I would reprogram the minds of an entire culture if I knew how.


This is also a problem. As much as we hate to admit it, ladies, there are those of 'us' that take advantage of this system, and go about drugging/raping men as they are unconscious.
Then, when such victims try to report it, they are laughed at, as though you can never have an unwilling erection, or that you would never want to be not 'laid' as a man, or that somehow being a man will prevent this form happening.

The "teach people to not rape" idea, while wonderful to think about, is problematic when applied to a real setting, in that, it is not about sex, it is about power, which CRIMINALS love to get over others.

Teaching everybody that rape is not funny, EVER;
that rape has serious consequences for everyone involved, even observers;
that it can happen to anyone, especially when they are vulnerable;
that you should report any kind of assault immediately upon escape;
that sexual consent thing GM keeps bringing up,
and you should defend the defensless;
 these are good ideas that can be implemented in our culture and get rid of the implicit approval of rape in general that is in our society.
 
2013-03-18 03:36:18 PM

tlars699: As much as we hate to admit it, ladies, there are those of 'us' that take advantage of this system, and go about drugging/raping men as they are unconscious.


Wait, what?
 
2013-03-18 03:38:18 PM

RedT: WhippingBoy:

 It's also statistically more likely that I'll be randomly killed (or have the quality of my life incredibly impacted) than you will be randomly raped (or killed).


Murder (in Canada)

One of every 17 Canadian women is raped at some point in her life.  Couldn't find an exact number, but according to Wiki for every 1.9 murders there are 68 sexual assaults (rape is not used in the Canadian legal code)

You may want to look at this (although you are not likely to believe any of it)


I believe every word of it. How many of these rapes were random, you intellectually dishonest, goalpost-moving cretin?
 
2013-03-18 03:41:27 PM

Genevieve Marie: When I say people should be taught not to rape what I mean is that teenagers need to be taught sexual consent. They need to understand that it is always their right to say no, but it is also their right to say yes. That sex is a positive thing when both partners enthusiastically consent and when proper medical precautions are taken. That's a healthy thing to teach.


I agree... But, good luck getting the religious right to go along with that lesson plan! They'd go utterly ape-shiat over that and accuse you of encouraging children to be promiscuous... They don't want them taught anything other than "Don't have sex!", and then you're supposed to stick your fingers in your ears and go "LA, LA, LA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" whenever anyone mentions they're not actually heeding that advice...
 
2013-03-18 03:42:05 PM

Bartleby the Scrivener: tlars699: It is far worse to be a survivor of rape [regardless of sex/gender], than it is to be a survivor of other physical violence [regardless of sex/gender] as rape is a violation of the most intimate places on a human body.

i disagree with you. unless you can provide some research that supports this absurd notion (which you won't because you can't) you are minimizing and trivializing the suffering of countless others who are victims or physical assault, drunk driving accidents, hazing, and any other number of ways that human beings can be vicious and cruel to each other.

under what code do you elevate the genitals of one person over the brain or internal organs of another? you are falsely constructing some bizarre hierarchy of suffering simply because you say the symbolism of one body part trumps another.

in the past i worked in MH/MR, and one guy i worked with was a smart guy, academic...before he got brained with a pipe. he then commenced to shout obscenities involuntarily and had to wear a diaper because of fecal and urinary incontinence. he was at least 4 years in when i got there, and he was still there when i left.

Please answer this question: Who are you to say that his suffering and "survivorship" is less than a victim of sexual assault?


Okay, I have three thoughts here.
1. Man that is unbelievably horrible, and you are so totally right- I retract my statement, and hereby correct it to make any assault equal in difficulty to survive.
2. He could have also been raped, and have his dignity shredded even further on top of all that other stuff.
3. I have had a male friend coerced into the (male on male)sex trade, while he was in the Army, before the repeal of DADT. At least with your guy, nobody questioned whether or not he was a victim, and threatened to take away everything he would have ever lived for afterwards.
 
2013-03-18 03:42:25 PM

Genevieve Marie: Super_pope: f no, I don't BLAME her but she's got a hand in this

Sigh. No. No she doesn't. She shouldn't have drank enough alcohol to become incapacitated because she's a minor and it's illegal, but that still does not mean that her actions caused her rape or that she bears any responsibility for the fact that she was raped.

The actions those boys took were so heinous and so obviously morally reprehensible that it should have been obvious to everyone at the party that this was wrong. The correct course of action should have been very obvious: Call someone to pick her up or put her in bed alone to sleep it off. They did not choose to take the correct course of action. They chose to rape her, degrade her, and they did it in front of a room full of laughing people.

The idea that because she was incapacitated, she was automatically at risk for rape treats rape like a natural threat. Like something women have an obligation to fend off. Once again, this isn't true- this girl was raped because these boys chose to rape her.


No no, don't just pick out one line of what I said.

I said, "If she had not done X, do you believe they would have done this to her?  If you do, then these children are monsters who could not have been taught not to do this because they are sociopaths.  If you do NOT believe that, then her actions (however undeserving of this) played a role in the fact that it happened.  You don't have to do something WRONG or deserve blame to be partially responsible for something.
 
2013-03-18 03:42:45 PM

Genevieve Marie: Not all men are rapists, but it's a statistical fact that most rapists are men. If that makes you uncomfortable I'm sorry, but it's factual. It's also factual that there's a weird gender dynamic surrounding sex, which I've described a few times, and it produces situations like this one.

So while it is obvious to you how sexual consent works, there are other men who it is clearly not obvious to and it would benefit society if that conversation became as much a part of raising a child as don't cheat, lie, steal, beat people up or talk back to adults.



These things are entirely true. Perhaps I don't like thinking about being identified by something I would never do, and that's where my reaction comes from.

There is no reason not to drive these points into kids during assemblies in school though. I still remember the slides of the missing jaws during the anti-chewing tobacco class. I remember the wrecked car on homecoming weekend to warn us against drinking and driving. I have no recollection of any comparable assembly with respect to rape though.

When taken in the proper perspective your argument makes perfect sense.
 
2013-03-18 03:42:54 PM

ginandbacon: tlars699: As much as we hate to admit it, ladies, there are those of 'us' that take advantage of this system, and go about drugging/raping men as they are unconscious.

Wait, what?


That you have to ask kind of proves my point.
 
2013-03-18 03:43:18 PM

Bartleby the Scrivener: tlars699: It is far worse to be a survivor of rape [regardless of sex/gender], than it is to be a survivor of other physical violence [regardless of sex/gender] as rape is a violation of the most intimate places on a human body.

i disagree with you. unless you can provide some research that supports this absurd notion (which you won't because you can't) you are minimizing and trivializing the suffering of countless others who are victims or physical assault, drunk driving accidents, hazing, and any other number of ways that human beings can be vicious and cruel to each other.

under what code do you elevate the genitals of one person over the brain or internal organs of another? you are falsely constructing some bizarre hierarchy of suffering simply because you say the symbolism of one body part trumps another.

in the past i worked in MH/MR, and one guy i worked with was a smart guy, academic...before he got brained with a pipe. he then commenced to shout obscenities involuntarily and had to wear a diaper because of fecal and urinary incontinence. he was at least 4 years in when i got there, and he was still there when i left.

Please answer this question: Who are you to say that his suffering and "survivorship" is less than a victim of sexual assault?


You're wasting your breath.  tlars699 is here to validate his or her bigotry, and has no interest in hearing viable, alternate viewpoints.
 
2013-03-18 03:43:22 PM

Tricky Chicken: HAMMERTOE: Tricky Chicken: You are describing intercourse as a tradeable commodity. Overt prostitution is illegal in most jurisdictions. In your divorce scenario, the ex-wife would be forced to subject herself to unwanted intercourse in exchange for financial gain. I would assume that if she were to refues intercourse then she would forfeit the alimony? This is a dangerous concept since some women would be discouraged from leaving bad relationships. A married woman can refuse sex and still live in the nice house. But in your scenario, a divorced woman would be on her own and be forced to provide sex.

No, I must reject your implication that marital sex can be treated as a commodity.

Now open prostitution, is a different subject altogether.

Come on now. If marital sex cannot be treated as a "commodity", on what grounds do you justify alimony? Because if she's entitled to being taken care of in the way she's become accustomed to, the very same principle should apply to him as well.

Because marriage is bullshiate viewed as a partnership.  If you started a business as an equal partnership, and you did all the work, the other partner would still be entitled to half of the value of the business when you kick him to the curb.  Now if you used the assets of the business to increase your own marketable value, income from that increased value should be taken into consideration when compensating the other partner.  If you and I ran a pharmaceutical supply company, and we decided we should use company funds to send you through medical school, I should be entitled to some future income from the value of that investment.



FTFE
 
2013-03-18 03:43:26 PM

RobSeace: Genevieve Marie: When I say people should be taught not to rape what I mean is that teenagers need to be taught sexual consent. They need to understand that it is always their right to say no, but it is also their right to say yes. That sex is a positive thing when both partners enthusiastically consent and when proper medical precautions are taken. That's a healthy thing to teach.

I agree... But, good luck getting the religious right to go along with that lesson plan! They'd go utterly ape-shiat over that and accuse you of encouraging children to be promiscuous... They don't want them taught anything other than "Don't have sex!", and then you're supposed to stick your fingers in your ears and go "LA, LA, LA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" whenever anyone mentions they're not actually heeding that advice...


Yup. And that attitude and the promotion of purity culture is a serious contributor to rape culture and it's really, really frustrating.
 
2013-03-18 03:45:34 PM
WhippingBoy:

It's a report on violent victimization committed by strangers (which is what we're talking about) from 1993-2010.
Please note the following paragraph:


Ok, so if we take out all of the statistics that show a female isn't even safe from her "friends" you win.

Alrighty then Whippin' you win.


/and seriously WTF does this even mean (from your citation) "Victims were less likely to be injured during a violent victimization when the offender was a stranger."
 
2013-03-18 03:46:03 PM

Genevieve Marie: Pangea: Genevieve Marie: So we're supposed to constantly take responsibility for protecting ourselves from rape and yet not talk about the ways in which we do that, lest we be considered paranoid, or like we're crazy and we think all men are potential rapists.


I've never accused a woman of being too paranoid based on a description of ways in which she protects herself. It would be something like preemptively incapacitating a perceived attacker with pepper spray before he actually did anything.

My issue is with women who say, "Is it too hard to teach men not to rape?"  Because that's precisely when they reposition the argument into accusing me of a being a rapist based solely on my gender.

How is my ability to do "teach" such a thing that is obvious to me, any different than her ability to "teach" it. I promise I would reprogram the minds of an entire culture if I knew how.

Not all men are rapists, but it's a statistical fact that most rapists are men. If that makes you uncomfortable I'm sorry, but it's factual. It's also factual that there's a weird gender dynamic surrounding sex, which I've described a few times, and it produces situations like this one.

So while it is obvious to you how sexual consent works, there are other men who it is clearly not obvious to and it would benefit society if that conversation became as much a part of raising a child as don't cheat, lie, steal, beat people up or talk back to adults.

The worst that happens in that situation is that all of the great young men who already have positive ideas about sex and sexuality have to sit through yet another boring lecture about something they already understand.


I don't have a problem with education relating to consent. I was fortunate enough to have people in my life that taught me how to respect others, so I don't think there's any likelihood that I would ever even consider rape. However, these sorts of discussions are usually brought up by people with strong feminist leanings, and I feel like the line blurs so much when they get to speaking. It rarely starts as a general "Why don't we have some sort of class in our public school that teach children how to treat each other with dignity and respect and not commit crimes against one another." It usually starts out as, "We should teach MEN not to rape WOMEN." and quickly devolves into "farkING FILTHY MALE PIGDOGS KEEP LOOKING AT WOMEN LIKE WE'RE PIECES OF MEAT AND EVERYTHING THEY DO IS EVIL AND SEXIST AND EVERY MALE WOULD RAPE WOMEN IF THEY COULD."

Its saddens me that people have to feel this way, but this is sentiment that I have heard from people who are barely dabbling in feminism. Even moreso when you start taking on, "I'm a woman studies major."

Why can't I be a feminist? No, fark that. I want to be a humanist. I'd rather people try to be decent to one another and not try to game our government aid programs or take advantage of their fellow man in any way, shape or form.

But we can't just "teach" a rapist not to rape. There's already been people referencing studies where rapists have psychological issues that makes their behavior feel completely normal to them. Besides, you can't target them until after their actually a rapist unless you start throwing out blanket generalizations to cover most people. So you just want to target men. And this is supposed to blanket enough people that it will have a significant impact against how many women are raped. It doesn't seem more beneficial to cover this in a general "DON'T BE A farkING shiatHEAD IN LIFE" course? It helps more to single out a gender and make a good 99% of the male population feel like we're already rapists for something we wish wasn't something anyone had to worry about?
 
2013-03-18 03:47:50 PM

WhippingBoy: you intellectually dishonest, goalpost-moving cretin

 
2013-03-18 03:48:36 PM

RedT: WhippingBoy: you intellectually dishonest, goalpost-moving cretin


Dammit, it took out my clapping Joker.
 
2013-03-18 03:51:44 PM

WhippingBoy: RedT: WhippingBoy:

 It's also statistically more likely that I'll be randomly killed (or have the quality of my life incredibly impacted) than you will be randomly raped (or killed).


Murder (in Canada)

One of every 17 Canadian women is raped at some point in her life.  Couldn't find an exact number, but according to Wiki for every 1.9 murders there are 68 sexual assaults (rape is not used in the Canadian legal code)

You may want to look at this (although you are not likely to believe any of it)

I believe every word of it. How many of these rapes were random, you intellectually dishonest, goalpost-moving cretin?


I'm going to cut you some slack but also take you to task for something else.

Slack: I don't actually worry much about getting raped because life is short and I know that if I am ever raped it will most likely be by someone I know and trust in an environment I consider safe. So it really isn't much more of an active consideration in my day to day existence than the possibility that I might be murdered which is very low even though I live in Baltimore (I jest.) I understand the point you are making, yet I think you are too quick to dismiss the fact that many women have a huge fear of rape. (Even if it is irrational, it is a byproduct of being told that we are responsible for preventing our own victimization while knowing that we are for the most part incapable of doing anything about it.)

The taking to task: Why have you spent so much time arguing this point in a thread about the kidnapping and repeated rape of a 16 year old girl and the subsequent slanted news coverage of the sentencing of her accusers? Stop and ask yourself if this is the best place to devote your energies right now and here. Is this really the best use of your intellect and heart?
 
2013-03-18 03:52:11 PM

ginandbacon: Genevieve Marie: ginandbacon: I am getting a little pissed off at this idea that it is a victim's responsibility to undergo what I have heard is a terrible ordeal by reporting their own assault in order to prevent future rapes. It isn't and no one should have to face that kind of guilt trip. Ever. It is the rapist's responsibility to prevent rape. Full stop.

This has come up in threads before and it's always hard for me to read too.

It is shameful and disgusting. And I seriously hope none of the insensitive assholes is ever in a position to spew this crap at a victim. None of the women I know who were raped reported it and I don't see how that makes them any part of the problem we are discussing. I consider victims who do report to be almost incomprehensibly brave given how they are treated inmost cases by LE, doctors, the courts, and friends, family, and acquaintances. 

Guess what? If the victims of rape felt like it was safe to report rape,  they would.


So many times, THIS. I cannot expect anyone to understand this, as my rational self is shocked at my reactionary self's ability to hide the bare facts from me for so many years, but honest to God it took a discussion with a familiar yet distant, trusted acquaintance about the difficulty of defining rape to make me realize, ten years after the fact, that I had been raped. He was the first person I had ever shared all the facts with, and after I wrote him my story in an attempt to show circumstances that are blurry and can't exactly be called rape that I realized, holy crap! I'd been raped! And it was like the wall between self-preservation and reality came crashing down and I found my 33yo self having to process the experiences and emotions of my 22yo self. Then I discovered that Rape Trauma Syndrome can and does happen YEARS after the event, and there are many, many women who don't even process what has happened to them for a long time.

When it is someone you know who commits the rape, it is very hard to process how a person you had trusted could willfully hurt you in such an intimate way.

The apologists here don't phase me (I'm internet old). But if anything I'm saying reassures someone they aren't alone, it is worth saying.
 
2013-03-18 03:52:21 PM

tlars699: Teaching everybody that rape is not funny, EVER;


Meh, plenty of crimes can be funny without people thinking engaging in them is a good idea.  How many times would the three stooges have been guilty of assault if they tried their antics in real life?

Teach people that it's not funny when real people are raped (unless they're celebrities, who aren't generally regarded as "real people", but are also used to public scrutiny so shouldn't have a problem), but to say that it's not funny ever?  Not even a 40lb box of rape, or the "you gonna get raped" guy?
 
2013-03-18 03:52:34 PM

cman: I think this is a foot in mouth moment.

If you read it it seems like she is disappointed that they threw their young lives away. She is not saying that the rapists are good people or that they don't deserve what they are about to expect, nor does she say anything bad about the victim or show the victim in any negative light.

TLDR; she could have said it better


Yeah, it's not like her entire job is based on her ability to communicate or anything.
 
2013-03-18 03:53:20 PM

CheatCommando: feckingmorons: They insist on giving us opinion rather than news.

As if this is not the normal case for journalism throughout its history. Go back and read the papers run by people like Benjamin Franklin or Horace Greely and tell me that they were insisting on this mythical "no opinion" journalism that you are hallucinating, because it has  never existed as a general rule, ever.


Good heavens, THIS. Hunter S. Thompson put it best: "With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms."
 
2013-03-18 03:55:17 PM

RobSeace: Genevieve Marie: When I say people should be taught not to rape what I mean is that teenagers need to be taught sexual consent. They need to understand that it is always their right to say no to their wife, but it is also their right to say yes to their husband. That sex is a positive thing when both partnersspouses enthusiastically consent and when proper medical precautions are absolutely not taken. That's a healthy thing to teach.

I agree... But, good luck getting the religious right to go along with that lesson plan! They'd go utterly ape-shiat over that and accuse you of encouraging children to be promiscuous... They don't want them taught anything other than "Don't have sex!", and then you're supposed to stick your fingers in your ears and go "LA, LA, LA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" whenever anyone mentions they're not actually heeding that advice...


there, fixed for the Christian Right.
 
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