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(Opposing Views)   CNN host Candy Crowley and reporter Poppy Harlow are almost in tears over the "ruined lives" of the two Steubenville, Ohio teen football players who were found guilty of gang-raping a 16-year-old girl   (opposingviews.com) divider line 659
    More: Sick, Steubenville, Candy Crowley, Poppy Harlow, CNN, CNN host, Ohio, guilty verdicts, rapists  
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20138 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Mar 2013 at 6:09 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-18 01:36:47 PM

Carth: It doesn't seem like a bad idea to teach your high school son things like: if a girl has been drinking she can't consent to sex, if even after consenting to sex she wants to stop you need to do so immediately, any pictures she gives you shouldn't be shown to anyone else. While these things might be obvious to most adults, teens can be freaking morons sometimes.


Of course it's not a bad idea. It's a great idea, in fact. Why do you assume that people aren't already teaching this to their sons?
 
2013-03-18 01:37:45 PM

Waxing_Chewbacca: vudukungfu: What kind of parents do these animals have?

Useless ones


But proud and loyal.
 
2013-03-18 01:38:08 PM

Super_pope: Basically it paints any sexual contact between two people who are both likely too impaired to be 100% on top of their judgement as a potential crime if either one of them decides later that they don't like what happened.


Impaired doesn't mean "had two Mike's Hard Lemonades earlier in the evening".  Impaired means impaired!
 
2013-03-18 01:38:24 PM

WhippingBoy: tlars699: I have to say that, as a woman, I took her meaning of  "Any concern about his safety" to be equivalent to the statement "Any concern of being raped", as she was talking about rape previously.

That I saw this, and you didn't, only points out how true her statement is...

Also, homophobia can be expressed as the fear that any man could or would treat you the same as you would treat a woman.

I give up. You're just going to interpret anything that doesn't support your narrow world view however you see fit.
How is it that you're even able to leave the house? The world is full of potential rapists that could strike at any given moment.


Not if I am with other people/other people are around who have the potential to observe such an act. You also can't live in fear at all times, as then nothing would get done. You just learn to be wary, and look over your shoulder frequently. It gets really freaky when I'm obviously the only one carting around my two small children across the dark parking lot to get into my apartment, but *shrugs* I'm glad you don't have to deal with it.
 
2013-03-18 01:40:39 PM
Well don't rape unconscious women then. It's not that hard, ya know.
 
2013-03-18 01:43:12 PM

Tricky Chicken: You are describing intercourse as a tradeable commodity. Overt prostitution is illegal in most jurisdictions. In your divorce scenario, the ex-wife would be forced to subject herself to unwanted intercourse in exchange for financial gain. I would assume that if she were to refues intercourse then she would forfeit the alimony? This is a dangerous concept since some women would be discouraged from leaving bad relationships. A married woman can refuse sex and still live in the nice house. But in your scenario, a divorced woman would be on her own and be forced to provide sex.

No, I must reject your implication that marital sex can be treated as a commodity.

Now open prostitution, is a different subject altogether.


Come on now. If marital sex cannot be treated as a "commodity", on what grounds do you justify alimony? Because if she's entitled to being taken care of in the way she's become accustomed to, the very same principle should apply to him as well.
 
2013-03-18 01:44:18 PM

Bontesla: Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: Where you in the courtroom? Did you hear all the evidence? No and no. The judge did and agrees with 90% of us who heard what has been reported. Your crusade to exonerate these two is disturbing. A bit up thread you stated that while she may have been drunk at one point she sobered up and wanted it. farking troglodyte.

I didn't state any such thing, stop blatantly lying and distorting what I said. I said that we have no way of knowing when those pictures were taken in relation to when the sexual contact happened. I guess you're going to continue ignoring testimony that the girl willingly went with the guys and lashed out at one of her friends that tried to stop her from leaving.

Did you hear all the evidence? Do you believe that judges always act on the facts and never on public pressure or their own beliefs?

I've said over and over that I have no way of knowing exactly what happened and would like to see more evidence. You seem fine with labeling them as rapists without having all the facts. You're the one that's farked up in the head, not me.

Wait - leaving a party with guys equates consent for sexual activity? You're going to have to do better than that. Especially given that party goers openly talked about the girl's rape. Are you suggesting that you have more firsthand knowledge than the party's attendees?

It's also important to note that they went to multiple parties. She had to be escorted out of the first one because she couldn't talk or string together a sentence (according to eye witnesses).


He's ignoring the "reasonable" part of "reasonable doubt," as young-earthers do when describing evolution as "just a theory."

"I don't believe it.  You  can prove it to me and I still won't believe it."  Doug Adams.
 
2013-03-18 01:46:19 PM

WhippingBoy: Carth: It doesn't seem like a bad idea to teach your high school son things like: if a girl has been drinking she can't consent to sex, if even after consenting to sex she wants to stop you need to do so immediately, any pictures she gives you shouldn't be shown to anyone else. While these things might be obvious to most adults, teens can be freaking morons sometimes.

Of course it's not a bad idea. It's a great idea, in fact. Why do you assume that people aren't already teaching this to their sons?


Because I volunteer with high school teenagers few times a week and over hear their conversations. I do a face palm at some of the things they believe about sex at least once or twice a month. Most of them will tell you their parents don't talk to them about sex and sex education is almost non existent at a lot of public schools. This means they end up learning things from their peers or the Internet and leads to a lot of messed up views.
 
2013-03-18 01:47:20 PM
I'm with the camp that says the parents who allowed alcohol use/abuse on their premises should be charged/prosecuted for allowing all of this to happen.

If football is soooooo great, why did they even allow their kids the chance to fark up their careers like this?
 
2013-03-18 01:49:14 PM

Carth: WhippingBoy: Carth: It doesn't seem like a bad idea to teach your high school son things like: if a girl has been drinking she can't consent to sex, if even after consenting to sex she wants to stop you need to do so immediately, any pictures she gives you shouldn't be shown to anyone else. While these things might be obvious to most adults, teens can be freaking morons sometimes.

Of course it's not a bad idea. It's a great idea, in fact. Why do you assume that people aren't already teaching this to their sons?

Because I volunteer with high school teenagers few times a week and over hear their conversations. I do a face palm at some of the things they believe about sex at least once or twice a month. Most of them will tell you their parents don't talk to them about sex and sex education is almost non existent at a lot of public schools. This means they end up learning things from their peers or the Internet and leads to a lot of messed up views.


Of course if you tried to help Johnny out with telling him literature to look at, and the parents catch wind of it, you'd get charged with corruption of a minor, or some such. So much lose.
 
2013-03-18 01:50:50 PM
Some of you are seriously misrepresenting Ohio's law when it comes to giving consent while being intoxicated.

The statute for rape states: (a) For the purpose of preventing resistance, the offender substantially impairs the other person's judgment or control by administering any drug, intoxicant, or controlled substance to the other person surreptitiously or by force, threat of force, or deception.

The statute for sexual battery states: (2) The offender knows that the other person's ability to appraise the nature of or control the other person's own conduct is substantially impaired.

Link
 
2013-03-18 01:52:21 PM

tlars699: Esroc: None of this behavior surprises me. When I was in High School the football team quarterback got his girlfriend pregnant, so he shot her multiple times then turned the gun on himself.

The next day the school held a big ceremony for mourning the quarterback. The entire school was filled with kids and teachers grieving over him with signs and pictures of him all over campus about how sad it was that this had happened to him. Not a single mention of the poor girl he murdered.

That was about the time that my last shred of faith in humanity was cut.


This is abhorrent.


It defies my imagination of decency.  The only plausible explanation I can think of is that the girl's family requested that her name not be mentioned in conjunction with his, or at all in a public ceremony (circus?).  Anything else is outrageous.
 
2013-03-18 01:56:49 PM

BarkingUnicorn: He's ignoring the "reasonable" part of "reasonable doubt," as young-earthers do when describing evolution as "just a theory."


It's unreasonable that a drunk 16 year old might have wanted sex? Ooooooooookay then.

The problem here is that some of you see a picture of a passed out, half nude girl and automatically assume that's when the sexual contact must have occurred. Of course what that infamous picture showed is a crime in itself, but it's not proof that a rape occurred.
 
2013-03-18 01:59:48 PM

jso2897: Mobutu: RobSeace: Ukab the Great: You do believe in the Bible...don't you?

Believe in it? I've actually seen one before!

borg: Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives? Thats what will ruin their lives and any chance of decent employment.

[i.imgur.com image 640x425]

Eh...  we should not be handling criminal prosecution with vengeance in mind.

As deplorable as what these kids did was, well, first:  They are kids.  That is not a sympathetic statement, just fact.  Secondly, things like the Sex Offender registry do in fact ruin lives and, really, once you have that on your record, what are you going to do?  You are practically forced into worse crimes out of sheer self preservation.

Our criminal justice system needs an overhaul.  I don't know what to recommend, and I don't say this out of any sympathy for the perpetrators here, just a sad fact - what we are doing, does not work, and in fact does more harm than good.

The very last thing that the justice system needs is an "overhaul" by some ideologue or ideologues who are upset because it has yielded a result they don't like. Our justice system is the result of the gradual evolution of centuries of legal and social precedent - and any good changes that come will be slow, cautious, and incremental. The idea that there is something out there that will "work" when one is dealing with psychopaths and sociopaths (which most violent criminals are) is not one that appears to have much evidence to support it. It may not exist. Either way, some radical "overhaul" of 5000 years of precedent is not going to fix it overnight.


I'm just saying that we would be better off killing such people outright, than banishing them into exile where their only option is further depravity and criminal action.

The Sex Offenders list is literally creating more problems than it solves.  Similar to how Prison culture ends up building a better, worse criminal rather than actually rehabilitating anyone in most cases.

It isn't about "turning over 5,000 years of precedent."  It is about realizing that we have not thought our cunning plan through all the way.  Again, I don't know what to recommend, but very little that we are doing is truly addressing the problem.
 
2013-03-18 02:01:14 PM

BarkingUnicorn: tlars699: Esroc: None of this behavior surprises me. When I was in High School the football team quarterback got his girlfriend pregnant, so he shot her multiple times then turned the gun on himself.

The next day the school held a big ceremony for mourning the quarterback. The entire school was filled with kids and teachers grieving over him with signs and pictures of him all over campus about how sad it was that this had happened to him. Not a single mention of the poor girl he murdered.

That was about the time that my last shred of faith in humanity was cut.


This is abhorrent.

It defies my imagination of decency.  The only plausible explanation I can think of is that the girl's family requested that her name not be mentioned in conjunction with his, or at all in a public ceremony (circus?).  Anything else is outrageous.


Why do any of this at all? He played a sport, he's not anything important. I don't understand wanting to parade pictures and stuff in a school for children.

We had 4 students die in a car accident when I was in high school. We had an announcement and a few free days to hang around, talk to each other and councilors and try to come to terms with what happened. We didn't have a huge assembly where we praised these kids. But they also weren't murderers.

Alternatively, about a year after I started my job here, one of the surface mount operators (who was always quiet, did a good job) went home, got into an argument with his wife, and shot her and then himself. He left behind two young kids. Aside from the guy not being there anymore and the rumor mill, everything went on as normal.

Does the kid get special treatment because he was young? Is that a reason to not mention that he killed a young girl and an unborn child in cold blood?
Or is it because he's a football player and some how exempt from the shame and ire of having killed a young girl and an unborn child in cold blood?

Why didn't my work hold a big "circus" where they praised what a hard worker he was, how he never showed up late, and how tragic it was to lose him?

Because all we knew was that he and his wife were fighting and separated, and he killed her and then himself with his children in the house. That's a monster. Wanna off yourself, fine, but leave the others out of it.
 
2013-03-18 02:01:51 PM

BarkingUnicorn: tlars699: Esroc: None of this behavior surprises me. When I was in High School the football team quarterback got his girlfriend pregnant, so he shot her multiple times then turned the gun on himself.

The next day the school held a big ceremony for mourning the quarterback. The entire school was filled with kids and teachers grieving over him with signs and pictures of him all over campus about how sad it was that this had happened to him. Not a single mention of the poor girl he murdered.

That was about the time that my last shred of faith in humanity was cut.


This is abhorrent.

It defies my imagination of decency.  The only plausible explanation I can think of is that the girl's family requested that her name not be mentioned in conjunction with his, or at all in a public ceremony (circus?).  Anything else is outrageous.


I unintentionally mislead you. It wasn't so much a public ceremony as a group of students and teachers hanging out in the auditorium. Though there were the signs and pictures for him strewn all over every vacant wall.
 
2013-03-18 02:02:07 PM

HAMMERTOE: Tricky Chicken: You are describing intercourse as a tradeable commodity. Overt prostitution is illegal in most jurisdictions. In your divorce scenario, the ex-wife would be forced to subject herself to unwanted intercourse in exchange for financial gain. I would assume that if she were to refues intercourse then she would forfeit the alimony? This is a dangerous concept since some women would be discouraged from leaving bad relationships. A married woman can refuse sex and still live in the nice house. But in your scenario, a divorced woman would be on her own and be forced to provide sex.

No, I must reject your implication that marital sex can be treated as a commodity.

Now open prostitution, is a different subject altogether.

Come on now. If marital sex cannot be treated as a "commodity", on what grounds do you justify alimony? Because if she's entitled to being taken care of in the way she's become accustomed to, the very same principle should apply to him as well.


Because marriage is viewed as a partnership.  If you started a business as an equal partnership, and you did all the work, the other partner would still be entitled to half of the value of the business when you kick him to the curb.  Now if you used the assets of the business to increase your own marketable value, income from that increased value should be taken into consideration when compensating the other partner.  If you and I ran a pharmaceutical supply company, and we decided we should use company funds to send you through medical school, I should be entitled to some future income from the value of that investment.
 
2013-03-18 02:02:31 PM

Popcorn Johnny: BarkingUnicorn: He's ignoring the "reasonable" part of "reasonable doubt," as young-earthers do when describing evolution as "just a theory."

It's unreasonable that a drunk 16 year old might have wanted sex? Ooooooooookay then.

The problem here is that some of you see a picture of a passed out, half nude girl and automatically assume that's when the sexual contact must have occurred. Of course what that infamous picture showed is a crime in itself, but it's not proof that a rape occurred.


No, except in the text messages, the two kids admitted that it happened, and were asking friends and coaches to help them "cover it up."
 
2013-03-18 02:05:44 PM

tlars699: WhippingBoy: tlars699: I have to say that, as a woman, I took her meaning of  "Any concern about his safety" to be equivalent to the statement "Any concern of being raped", as she was talking about rape previously.

That I saw this, and you didn't, only points out how true her statement is...

Also, homophobia can be expressed as the fear that any man could or would treat you the same as you would treat a woman.

I give up. You're just going to interpret anything that doesn't support your narrow world view however you see fit.
How is it that you're even able to leave the house? The world is full of potential rapists that could strike at any given moment.

Not if I am with other people/other people are around who have the potential to observe such an act. You also can't live in fear at all times, as then nothing would get done. You just learn to be wary, and look over your shoulder frequently. It gets really freaky when I'm obviously the only one carting around my two small children across the dark parking lot to get into my apartment, but *shrugs* I'm glad you don't have to deal with it.


What do you mean "I don't have to deal with it"? Because I'm a man, bad things can't possibly happen to me? A guy in the apartment where I used to live was beat nearly to death one night because he decided to take a shortcut home from picking up milk for his two year old. He cut through a public school grounds and came upon the wrong group of people at the wrong time.
Do you honestly think that us men walk through the world without concern? With the exception of rape, men are statistically more likely to be victims of violence than women.
 
2013-03-18 02:06:26 PM

Waxing_Chewbacca: Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: So there was NO sex. Didn't happen. She passed out and pics were taken. That's what you believe? I think we can agree she was in no condition to consent which is as good as a NO in my book.

I never said there was no sex, the guys admitted to finger banging her. What's disputed is whether or not it was consensual. I've seen no proof that it was or wasn't. In a court, lack of proof goes to the defendant each and every time.

You saw pics. You heard stories about her condition!!! She was beyond wasted!!! Do believe she COULD consent? Apparently yes.

Unreal... So it's not violent and its consensual if she doesn't move and can barely speak due to alcohol. You're a sick fark.


She vomited.  That can sound sorta like "yes," especially if the party is loud.
 
2013-03-18 02:07:39 PM
Who "ruined" their lives?

They did.

Who's going to fix this girl's ruined life?

crickets
 
2013-03-18 02:13:44 PM
I don't see how anyone could enjoy sexually stimulative behavior with someone who's not responsive. Half the fun is seeing what you can make the other person do (in a consensual manner, obviously).

Sticking your fingers in an unconscious girl's crotch seems like you're just playing coroner.

I'm not comfortable with the lifetime "sex offender" brand, however. Authorities can't know these people in their teens will be like this when they're 40-50-60 years old.
 
2013-03-18 02:15:53 PM

Bontesla: And should the attacker refuse to plea out and this goes to trial? She better have defensive wounds and biological evidence to establish A). Sexual contact and B). That contact was unwanted. And she better be damned convincing on the stand because there's little hope of winning without a very public testimony about a very intimate and sexual trauma. Her attacker's attorney will also be trying to convince the jury that she wasn't being clear about refusing his advances.


This is why the standard is switching from "unequivocal no" to "unequivocal yes."  Kids, you  need to learn that, if you want to stay out of jail or get any cock.

We may have to criminalize using the word "maybe" in response to a perfectly simple question...
 
2013-03-18 02:16:36 PM
WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE RAPISTS???

/you know, besides their victims
 
2013-03-18 02:18:03 PM

HAMMERTOE: BarkingUnicorn: Tricky Chicken: doglover: Tricky Chicken: Are you comparing rape to various socialist policies? Or were you going for the wealth redistribution idea?

I for one would like to opt out of "rape redistribution" preemptively, just in case.

I don't think it would be an opt out situation.  Wimins have the hoohaa, mens wants the hoohaas.  It is clearly a monopoly.

And women want the cock.  It's odd that they are considered greedy and miserly, but cocksmen are considered generous and philanthropic.

Actually, I was angling about the "Wealth Redistribution" aspect with my original statement. It all boils down to the Haves and the Have- nots, as it so often does. As was stated by more people than just myself, women have the booty; and are fairly stingy with it, just like the rich people are with their money. Some men are born better off, just like some people are born rich. For them, access to booty (money) is never a problem. As for the "Women want the cock" aspect, this just doesn't work out to be true. For example, in a divorce, the wife has traditionally gotten a share of the husband's money, even if she never worked a day in her life, and had a maid do all the housework. Yet, have you ever heard of one single case where the ex-wife was required to maintain a sex life for her ex-husband comparable to the financial standard of living he is required to provide for her? If she didn't work, and had a maid to do all the housework, that was pretty much the context of her "contribution" to the marriage.


Yea, I feel really gross just reading that. The idea that women's bodies are commodities that men are entitled to, regardless of how the woman feels about it is about as glaring an example of promoting rape culture as you'll see.
 
2013-03-18 02:19:32 PM

Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/172024/americas-rape-problem-we-refuse -a dmit-there-one#

At least people in India are starting to admit they have a problem, most Americans are convinced that we're all find and dandy.

One of my friends (and occasional farker) took part in this demonstration in Delhi this week where men held signs apologizing and making the statement that the change starts with them. I'd be shocked to ever see something like that here in the US.

Same. See: Any thread ever where a feminist points out that we need to teach sexual consent to teenagers, i.e. that women need to be taught that it's ok to say yes when we want to have sex and that young men need to be taught to firmly respect a "no".

The idea that men need to be taught not to rape makes people furious, but I mean... watch the video embedded in this link. The young men talking clearly haven't been taught not to rape. They haven't been taught to respect sexual boundaries. And the scary part is they aren't out of the ordinary! These guys remind me of numerous boys I knew in high school and college.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/01/steubenville-high-fo ot ball-rape-crew/60554/


We also need to teach them not to steal, lie, be dis-honorable and dress themselves, but despite the massive effect this stuff has on society, no one except 'feminists' are talking about re-education.  I find that interesting.  On the one hand, it clearly shows your extreme nature.  On the other hand, it shows just how farked up our society is, and that only 'feminists' seem to have any farking clue what to do about it.

I'm not really ok with either of those options, do you think we could come up with something else?

(I was raised by my mom, she was a rape victim counselor, believe me, I was raised with firm sexual boundaries.  I tried my hand at helping victims when I got old enough.  Not a good fit for me, as my reaction after seeing most of the victims is to go looking for the guy, which it turns out the police don't appreciate)
 
2013-03-18 02:19:43 PM

poot_rootbeer: Super_pope: Basically it paints any sexual contact between two people who are both likely too impaired to be 100% on top of their judgement as a potential crime if either one of them decides later that they don't like what happened.

Impaired doesn't mean "had two Mike's Hard Lemonades earlier in the evening".  Impaired means impaired!


How impaired does Steve have to be before he can't REALLY consent to play football anymore?  Even pretty drunk he might play well if he's an athlete.  Seems like he WANTS to play, I mean he's getting ready and lining up even if he looks hammered.  At what point should his impaired friends be doing something criminal by not realizing he's too drunk for this?
 
2013-03-18 02:20:28 PM

The Muthaship: Looks like this could be a long way from over:

Link


Good.


TFA: A grand jury will meet in mid-April to consider evidence gathered by investigators from dozens of interviews, including with the football team's 27 coaches.

Their high school football team has 27 coaches? What. The. Fark.
 
2013-03-18 02:20:57 PM

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: You're working way to hard to find innocence. "Hey... Maybe it was aliens" is next.

I'm not trying to find innocence at all, merely pointing out that you don't convict people without evidence. If there are photos of the two guys with their fingers up her snatch and her obviously passed out, then they're guilty. Maybe the judge should be making public what evidence exists rather than having a lot of people questioning the validity of his ruling.


Your right to know does not trump a rape victim's right to the remaining shreds of her privacy.  That battle is long over and you lost.

A judge who gives a shiat about what the public thinks is unqualified to judge.
 
2013-03-18 02:21:52 PM

Kahabut: I'm not really ok with either of those options, do you think we could come up with something else?


Um... I'm not quite sure why you consider advocating that we teach sexual consent as part of sex education an extreme position?
 
2013-03-18 02:22:37 PM

doubled99: Step One: REPORT IT.
Step Two: REPORT IT.
Step Three: REPORT IT.

Step Zero:  Establish a credible justice system where people who report sexual assaults are treated with due respect and dignity, instead of often being subjected to further psychological trauma.

In any criminal proceeding, the defense is allowed to thoroughly question witnesses, both to search for inconsistencies and to establish credibility or lack of it. This is a basic part of our justice system.
Why do people feel those accusing rape are not subject to this?


Because it hurt too much.
 
2013-03-18 02:24:28 PM

tlars699: BarkingUnicorn: RedT: 
This is simply the situation in this country.

Yet, many people don't want to admit that we have a rape culture and want to get offended by the phrase.  But our culture teaches us (both men and women) that gals must be on the lookout at ALL TIMES for potential rape situations.

That's not "culture"?  Bullshiat.

Your daydreams are not our culture.  They're not even every woman's daydreams.

I prescribe Zen meditation.

6/10


No, seriously, Zen would help free her from the illusions of past and future so that she could be happy in the here and now.
 
2013-03-18 02:25:20 PM

WhippingBoy: tlars699: WhippingBoy: tlars699: I have to say that, as a woman, I took her meaning of  "Any concern about his safety" to be equivalent to the statement "Any concern of being raped", as she was talking about rape previously.

That I saw this, and you didn't, only points out how true her statement is...

Also, homophobia can be expressed as the fear that any man could or would treat you the same as you would treat a woman.

I give up. You're just going to interpret anything that doesn't support your narrow world view however you see fit.
How is it that you're even able to leave the house? The world is full of potential rapists that could strike at any given moment.

Not if I am with other people/other people are around who have the potential to observe such an act. You also can't live in fear at all times, as then nothing would get done. You just learn to be wary, and look over your shoulder frequently. It gets really freaky when I'm obviously the only one carting around my two small children across the dark parking lot to get into my apartment, but *shrugs* I'm glad you don't have to deal with it.

What do you mean "I don't have to deal with it"? Because I'm a man, bad things can't possibly happen to me? A guy in the apartment where I used to live was beat nearly to death one night because he decided to take a shortcut home from picking up milk for his two year old. He cut through a public school grounds and came upon the wrong group of people at the wrong time.
Do you honestly think that us men walk through the world without concern? With the exception of rape, men are statistically more likely to be victims of violence than women.


What? No. I don't think you men walk around without concern for your safety.
 I think you walk around without concern that you will be raped.

Your previous argument that I live in a constant "paranoid" fear that I may be raped at any given opportunity is correct.
It is ALWAYS in my mind that I could be attacked, especially when vulnerable.

I'm glad that your lack of concern about such is apparent, and that you don't have to worry about being physically violated in places most people keep intimately guarded, unlike me.
You worry about being robbed, beaten, killed. I worry about being robbed, beaten, killed, AND RAPED.
Do you see the difference?
 
2013-03-18 02:25:31 PM
Aar1012:

In the linked video up above, I could clearly see that a kid was in an Onio State shirt (I didnt watch the video). I have never been more ashamed to be an Ohio State fan than I am right now.

Well, I can trade you a couple Penn State sweatshirts and a diploma I'm hiding in the basement.
 
2013-03-18 02:25:37 PM
Is it a crime to get so drunk you can't say no? No, but it is stupid and invites this sort of thing
 
2013-03-18 02:29:24 PM

BarkingUnicorn: tlars699: BarkingUnicorn: RedT: 
This is simply the situation in this country.

Yet, many people don't want to admit that we have a rape culture and want to get offended by the phrase.  But our culture teaches us (both men and women) that gals must be on the lookout at ALL TIMES for potential rape situations.

That's not "culture"?  Bullshiat.

Your daydreams are not our culture.  They're not even every woman's daydreams.

I prescribe Zen meditation.

6/10

No, seriously, Zen would help free her from the illusions of past and future so that she could be happy in the here and now.


Quite true; Zen would help with that. However, it is your previous assessment of her "daydreams" that I find to be troll-ish.
 
2013-03-18 02:32:01 PM
feckingmorons:

Don't want to be labeled a rapist, don't be a rapist.

An obvious reply to that is:


10 Top Tips to End Rape

Don't put drugs in women's drinks.

When you see a woman walking by herself, leave her alone.

If you pull over to help a woman whose car has broken down, remember not to rape her.

If you are in a lift and a woman gets in, don't rape her.

Never creep into a woman's home through an unlocked window, or spring out at her from between parked cars, or rape her.

USE THE BUDDY SYSTEM! If you are not able to stop yourself from assaulting people, ask a friend to stay with you while you are in public.

Don't forget: it's not sex with someone who's asleep or unconscious - it's RAPE!

Carry a whistle! If you are worried you might assault someone 'by accident' you can hand it to the person you are with, so they can call for help.

Don't forget: Honesty is the best policy. If you have every intention of having sex later on with the woman you're dating regardless of how she feels about it, tell her directly that there is every chance that you will rape her.

If you don't communicate your intentions, she may take it as a sign that you do not plan to rape her and inadvertently feel safe.  Don't rape.
 
2013-03-18 02:32:43 PM

WhippingBoy: Zombalupagus: The silver lining on that is, contrary to what rapists think, most men are decent human beings and would not do anything like that given the chance. Instead, it's a very small percentage that are very, very dangerous.

I think this may be why people are resistant to statements like "we need to teach men not to rape". The implication is that "men" don't already know this and would rape at the first chance if they thought they could get away with it.


Yeah, that's like trying to teach sociopaths not to be sociopaths, or thinking that "all men" are sociopaths.


Pangea: Zombalupagus: Add to that the statistic that about 97% of rapes go unreported.

That figure is challenging for me to believe.


It really is hard to figure out exactly what's going on. Many studies ask random people questions and hope they give true answers. But it's a touchy subject and there seems to be some bias, not to mention different studies sometimes yield conflicting results. The "every rapist think all men rape" claim may, in fact, be bogus. It doesn't seem like it would take a rocket scientist to study this stuff, but people get too involved and start looking to verify their own opinions, and it's difficult to separate the clean science from the biased stuff.
 
2013-03-18 02:34:32 PM

tlars699: Your previous argument that I live in a constant "paranoid" fear that I may be raped at any given opportunity is correct.
It is ALWAYS in my mind that I could be attacked, especially when vulnerable.


What's fun is that the men who will say women are paranoid for always being aware of any situation in which rape might be possible are always the SAME men who look at a rape case and say "Well  yea, but the victim had the responsibility to watch out for herself."

So we're supposed to constantly take responsibility for protecting ourselves from rape and yet not talk about the ways in which we do that, lest we be considered paranoid, or like we're crazy and we think all men are potential rapists.
 
2013-03-18 02:36:10 PM

Celerian: No, except in the text messages, the two kids admitted that it happened, and were asking friends and coaches to help them "cover it up."


What did the messages say?
 
2013-03-18 02:37:55 PM

Contrabulous Flabtraption: Is it a crime to get so drunk you can't say no? No, but it is stupid and invites this sort of thing


No, it doesn't "invite" this sort of thing.

These boys could very easily have called someone to get her, or carried her onto a couch and let her sleep it off. That would have been the smart choice for them to make.

Instead they chose to sexually assault her and degrade her.

This is the problem with making the narrative about the victim's choices. It always seems to conveniently gloss over the fact that the rapists had a choice too, and the one they made actually IS illegal.
 
2013-03-18 02:37:59 PM

BarkingUnicorn: doubled99: Step One: REPORT IT.
Step Two: REPORT IT.
Step Three: REPORT IT.

Step Zero:  Establish a credible justice system where people who report sexual assaults are treated with due respect and dignity, instead of often being subjected to further psychological trauma.

In any criminal proceeding, the defense is allowed to thoroughly question witnesses, both to search for inconsistencies and to establish credibility or lack of it. This is a basic part of our justice system.
Why do people feel those accusing rape are not subject to this?

Because it hurt too much.


I'm sorry that you had to go through this.
But the best way to deal with it is to constantly remind yourself that you are right,no matter what they try to tell you.
If you escape, you should IMMEDIATELY go to a hospital, and have them call the police/bring the rape kit. There is no other way to assess what happened currently, and it's sick and wrong that it isn't better, but life sucks sometimes, and you should do your best to make sure that no evidence is lost, and that nobody ever has to go through that again.
Watch Jodie Foster's movie about it. Be inspired to make a difference.
 
2013-03-18 02:40:42 PM

Popcorn Johnny: BarkingUnicorn: He's ignoring the "reasonable" part of "reasonable doubt," as young-earthers do when describing evolution as "just a theory."

It's unreasonable that a drunk 16 year old might have wanted sex? Ooooooooookay then.

The problem here is that some of you see a picture of a passed out, half nude girl and automatically assume that's when the sexual contact must have occurred. Of course what that infamous picture showed is a crime in itself, but it's not proof that a rape occurred.


Pictures are not the only acceptable evidence.  The relative credibility of scenarios has a bearing on "reasonable doubt."

Actually, "reasonable doubt" is commonly misconstrued to mean, "a doubt that is reasonable." It really is shorthand for "a doubt that a reasonable person would have after considering all of the evidence presented."  It has nothing to do with how good a line of bullshiat an attorney can spew.

Jury instruction is difficult.
 
2013-03-18 02:42:27 PM

Genevieve Marie: Contrabulous Flabtraption: Is it a crime to get so drunk you can't say no? No, but it is stupid and invites this sort of thing

No, it doesn't "invite" this sort of thing.

These boys could very easily have called someone to get her, or carried her onto a couch and let her sleep it off. That would have been the smart choice for them to make.

Instead they chose to sexually assault her and degrade her.

This is the problem with making the narrative about the victim's choices. It always seems to conveniently gloss over the fact that the rapists had a choice too, and the one they made actually IS illegal.


Perhaps a better choice of words would be "it presents an opportunity to be taken advantage of by those who do not have your best interests in mind, which they may not have had otherwise".

And it is a crime for a 16 year old to get so drunk she can't say no. Because she's underage.
 
2013-03-18 02:42:56 PM

WhippingBoy: Why do you assume that people aren't already teaching this to their sons?


Eh, probably when we hear things like this:

The girl was completely naked on the floor, laying motionless on her side, not far from where she'd just puked out of the side of her mouth.

By her side was one of his teammates, Trent Mays, who Westlake testified was fully exposed and smacking his penis on the girl's hip. Laying behind her was another player, Ma'lik Richmond, whom Westlake testified he saw penetrating the girl with two fingers, "halfway to the knuckle."

"It wasn't what I expected to see," Westlake testified Friday at the Jefferson County Justice Center here in this old Eastern Ohio mill town, where Mays and Richmond stand trial for rape. "I wasn't really sure what to think."

Why didn't you stop it, special prosecutor Marianne Hemmeter asked?

"Well," Westlake said, "it wasn't violent. I didn't know exactly what rape was. I always pictured it as forcing yourself on someone."
 
2013-03-18 02:44:10 PM

tlars699: What? No. I don't think you men walk around without concern for your safety.
 I think you walk around without concern that you will be raped.

Your previous argument that I live in a constant "paranoid" fear that I may be raped at any given opportunity is correct.
It is ALWAYS in my mind that I could be attacked, especially when vulnerable.

I'm glad that your lack of concern about such is apparent, and that you don't have to worry about being physically violated in places most people keep intimately guarded, unlike me.
You worry about being robbed, beaten, killed. I worry about being robbed, beaten, killed, AND RAPED.
Do you see the difference?


I don't think I'll be able to articulate this very well, but I'll try my best.
In my world view, it's as bad (if not worse) to be killed than it is to be raped. It's also statistically more likely that I'll be randomly killed (or have the quality of my life incredibly impacted) than you will be randomly raped (or killed). In this context, I've got more to worry about than you do, but for some reason, you seem to be summarily dismissing my concerns.

In short, my interpretation of your comments is that you seem to feel that it's far worse to rape a woman than it is to kill a man.
 
2013-03-18 02:44:57 PM
I am getting a little pissed off at this idea that it is a victim's responsibility to undergo what I have heard is a terrible ordeal by reporting their own assault in order to prevent future rapes. It isn't and no one should have to face that kind of guilt trip. Ever. It is the rapist's responsibility to prevent rape. Full stop.
 
2013-03-18 02:45:46 PM
These are simple rules to not being a rapist:

1. Don't have sex with a random drunk girl.
2. If you do have to have sex with a random drunk girl, don't post the video on the internet.
3. If #2 is a problem, see #1.

On the other hand, most victims can't see is rape is handled as delicately as murder is. The only real difference is that the victim is alive and can be questioned, and some of the questions detectives, cops, and attorneys ask are like a surgeon's knife: painful, but get straight to the heart of the matter.  That's the main reason why rape victims don't come forward: They're afraid of having something tangential to the actual rape be the key to letting their rapists get off scot-free...but of course, not coming forward also lets their rapist get off scot-free, too.
 
2013-03-18 02:46:25 PM

tlars699: BarkingUnicorn: tlars699: BarkingUnicorn: RedT: 
This is simply the situation in this country.

Yet, many people don't want to admit that we have a rape culture and want to get offended by the phrase.  But our culture teaches us (both men and women) that gals must be on the lookout at ALL TIMES for potential rape situations.

That's not "culture"?  Bullshiat.

Your daydreams are not our culture.  They're not even every woman's daydreams.

I prescribe Zen meditation.

6/10

No, seriously, Zen would help free her from the illusions of past and future so that she could be happy in the here and now.

Quite true; Zen would help with that. However, it is your previous assessment of her "daydreams" that I find to be troll-ish.


If trolling still means, "comments that provoke exaggerated emotional responses," then her original comment was a troll that happened to fail on me.  I deliberately exercised restraint to avoid trolling while refuting hers.
 
2013-03-18 02:48:13 PM

Jorn the Younger: It seems to me that a large part of the problem is how we, as a culture, approach the topic of sex, especially along gender lines.  Sex is treated like a commodity, like a possession.  Guys "get laid"1 and it doesn't seem too much of a stretch that a guy who feels he deserves this commodity will attempt to take it.  But sex isn't something someone gets, has2, or is given.  Sex is something two (or more, if you're into that) people do.

When my lady and I are intimate, we are engaging in a mutually pleasurable activity together, because we both want to.

I'm also troubled by the "sex = manhood" mindset.  Whether or not I have engaged in sexual activity has nothing to do with whether or not I'm a Man.  One is a Man when one behaves as a Man, and acts as a Man should (With honour, courage, and nobility, for a start).  I don't want to threadjack this into a discussion of what makes a Man, so I'm not going to elaborate further, but "has experienced sex" doesn't appear anywhere in the list.


1. yes, I know some women use the same terminology, but that's a recent development, and an indication of a relaxation of moral standards than maintained women weren't supposed to be interested in sex, which is tangentical to what I'm talking about
2. has as in possesses


When my sister gets older, we're probably going to have 'life wisdom' talks. I'll probably have a lot to explain to her about responsibility, honor, and other things that make you a woman. Sex is not actually going to be on that list.
 
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