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(Opposing Views)   CNN host Candy Crowley and reporter Poppy Harlow are almost in tears over the "ruined lives" of the two Steubenville, Ohio teen football players who were found guilty of gang-raping a 16-year-old girl   (opposingviews.com) divider line 659
    More: Sick, Steubenville, Candy Crowley, Poppy Harlow, CNN, CNN host, Ohio, guilty verdicts, rapists  
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20132 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Mar 2013 at 6:09 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-18 10:22:14 AM

ginandbacon: liam76: ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

I think people are objecting to it being broadly applied to the US.

Why shouldn't it be broadly applied to the US? It's a country-wide problem. According to the National Institute of Justice:


"Rape culture" to me implies that actions, like the ones those kids did is accepted by large segments of the population.  That isn;t the case.  Because we have problems with reporting rape doesn't equate to the US being a "rape culture".
 
2013-03-18 10:23:06 AM

Snowflake Tubbybottom: ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

Probably because it's inaccurate and shifts blame to society for the criminal activity of the individual.  What else would I call it? Wholly untrue since it's that same groups mores that prosecuted and convicted these little bastards.


How is it inaccurate and how does it shift blame? And remember, there were active attempts by many in the community to impede this prosecution. The State Atty. General has convened a grand jury to investigate all 27 of the school's football team.
 
2013-03-18 10:26:57 AM

browntimmy: Let's say there's a scenario where a girl accepted an invitation from a guy she just met at a party to come hang out with him and 3 of his friends that she also doesn't know at an abandoned warehouse at 1am, and she's raped. You're not allowed to say things like, "This girl lacks so much common sense she's a danger to herself." Because somehow saying that is equivalent to saying, "The rapists did nothing wrong, it was all her fault."


Because women/girls must be on the lookout at ALL TIMES for potential rape situations.
Men have no idea how it is to feel this way all the time.

This morning I ran around LadyBird lake at 5:30.  I decided to forgo my iPod so that I could hear any footsteps behind me.  I am always very aware of my surrounding and my ability to sprint (and just how fast and how far I can sprint) if necessary.

I also did not run 10 miles because the other 3 miles of the loop are deserted at that hour.  I was NOT afraid of being robbed (of my car key and Garmin, the only things I had on me). I was not afraid of being jumped and beat up by a roving gang of hooligans.
And you bet you ass if I was attacked raped folks would be saying, "What was she doing running in the dark."  "What was she wearing?" "Why was she alone."

I sincerely doubt any man who I saw running on that same loop had ANY concern about his safety beyond tripping over a root and busting his own ass.

This is simply the situation in this country.

Yet, many people don't want to admit that we have a rape culture and want to get offended by the phrase.  But our culture teaches us (both men and women) that gals must be on the lookout at ALL TIMES for potential rape situations.

That's not "culture"?  Bullshiat.
 
2013-03-18 10:27:57 AM

hubiestubert: These young men are damn lucky to have gotten off this easy, and not in someplace, like say, Texas, where a judge might have looked askance if the young men happened to have had horrible accidents like falling onto a couple of baseball bats several dozen times, or drowned themselves in their own toilets...


Oh, I seriously doubt that. In Texas, high school football is King, and the players are venerated. I think they would have fared far better in a Texas court, perhaps having to apologize and maybe do community service.
 
2013-03-18 10:29:24 AM

StrangeQ: If you are 16 and take a picture of another 16 year old and pass it around you may be dumb and irresponsible, but you are not distributing child porn; you are distributing pictures of someone in your fellow age group.  There is a world of difference between that and some 50 year old seeding his stash of photos on TOR.


How do you think the 50-year-old ends up with pictures of passed-out naked 16-year-olds in the first place?

This isn't the same as statutory rape laws, where the ages of the parties are factored into determining whether there was consent and where there was a power disparity.  No matter how old you are when you produce and distribute sexual content involving minors, once it's out there it's available to every pederast with an internet connection.

(I also think child pornography laws need to differentiate between content with sexual connotations and simple nudity, and between subjects who have reached physical sexual maturity and those who have not, but those are separate issues.)
 
2013-03-18 10:30:53 AM
Genevieve Marie:
violentsalvation: rynthetyn: most Americans are convinced that we're all fine and dandy.

I completely disagree with that, though I understand your frustration, and I share it as best I can, as a dude. But we have to work together on this, and terms we see like "rape culture" are only a divisive sideshow, IMHO. If we can put that nonsense aside perhaps we can get to addressing the issue.

... how are terms like "rape culture" a divisive sideshow when the issue we're talking about is a culture that blames victims of rape and makes excuses for rapists?


Because he doesn't like having to confront and analyze the dangerously sexist assumptions of his culture, since they're not dangerous to him and he might find he has to change his own attitudes?

The irony is of course that victim-shaming and blaming affects men too, since not only do we have female friends and relatives who we want to stay safe, but men and boys can be victims of sexual assault too at which point they face being belittled and shamed by that same culture.
 
2013-03-18 10:31:50 AM

poot_rootbeer: Step Zero: Establish a credible justice system where people who report sexual assaults are treated with due respect and dignity, instead of often being subjected to further psychological trauma.


What constituted further psychological trauma? How much of that is just standard legal defense tactics?

Now do you see why even 400 years ago the Bard was criticizing lawyers?
 
2013-03-18 10:32:22 AM

ginandbacon: Snowflake Tubbybottom: ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

Probably because it's inaccurate and shifts blame to society for the criminal activity of the individual.  What else would I call it? Wholly untrue since it's that same groups mores that prosecuted and convicted these little bastards.

How is it inaccurate and how does it shift blame? And remember, there were active attempts by many in the community to impede this prosecution. The State Atty. General has convened a grand jury to investigate all 27 of the school's football team.


When you say it is the fault of the "culture" you are shifting blame.

There were attempts to cover this up, and people got pissed.  If it was our "culture" nobody would have gotten pissed.
 
2013-03-18 10:32:58 AM

darkscout: feckingmorons: I don't really watch any of the cable news stations (or broadcast news stations in the US for that matter) save the local cable one. Not that you can see this because you ignore opinions that are not in lockstep with yours.

It's sad that I have to go abroad to get good news channels. When I traveled to Germany and India the BBC was amazing. They actually did reporting. On the world. And I don't think I heard a single word about the Kardashians.


BBC's pretty good in general, but still, they got rolled pretty hard last time they went to Cuba.

No forensic evidence of Castro's civilian massacres, 50 years after the fact, outdoors in a tropical climate?

You don't say.

/those firing squads?
//they BROADCAST them on Cuban TV, back when they were proud of them
 
2013-03-18 10:33:14 AM

poot_rootbeer: This isn't the same as statutory rape laws, where the ages of the parties are factored into determining whether there was consent and where there was a power disparity.  No matter how old you are when you produce and distribute sexual content involving minors, once it's out there it's available to every pederast with an internet connection.


But does the level of criminal intent scale with the damage done?
Isn't there a difference between murdering someone with a machete and accidentally killing your passenger in a car crash on an unexpectedly slippery road?
I'd say there is a difference between a 16 year old producing a pic of a 16 year old and a 50 year old doing the same, even if the damage done in the two scenarios are equal.
 
2013-03-18 10:36:43 AM

wickedragon: I'd say there is a difference between a 16 year old producing a pic of a 16 year old and a 50 year old doing the same, even if the damage done in the two scenarios are equal


When the 16 yr old is passed otu drunk I see no difference.
 
2013-03-18 10:38:13 AM

Owangotang: Aegius: They're not asking for it....but.... getting so drunk that you pass out for hours is piss poor judgement.  Whether you get beaten, robbed, raped, I think there is always an issue of self responsibility to protect yourself from getting so inebriated that you can no longer function.  That being said....she would have never even known anything had ever happened to her if someone hadn't tipped her off.

This is so much bullsh*t, just because someone is vulnerable does not mean someone else HAS to take advantage of that vulnerability. These monsters CHOSE to prey upon her vulnerability, they could have just as easily protected her by putting her in a separate bedroom to let her sleep it off, all the while stopping anyone from going in there. What did they CHOOSE to do instead? Rape her.

What f*cking planet are we living on when there are serious arguments put out there such as, "Well she chose to get blackout drunk, guess that means it's rapin' time!"? What the fark?


That is not remotely what they said. If you're vulnerable nobody HAS to take advantage of you - you got that part correct. However, if you're vulnerable someone MAY take advantage of you, that is reality. Informing people of reality and advising that they stay safe and avoid vulnerable situations is not a bad thing.

Is it blaming the victim? It is. If you go through a dark alley in a high crime area and do so knowingly and you get mugged you aren't at fault but you are an idiot.

I have a daughter. She's made it through her years - all the way to adulthood - without once being raped (fortunately). It's first a matter of statistics, someone has to come out on the winning side. Also important is that she's well aware of what a dangerous situation is and makes the effort to avoid those situations.

If she put herself in a situation where she was vulnerable and was raped would I blame her? Of course not. I would, however, make it a point to wait until she is more emotionally stable and, again, inform her of the need to avoid risky situations if she doesn't want to be a victim.

We can't control the third party. We can only control ourselves. Putting yourself into a risky situation isn't asking to get hurt but it is giving those who would harm you the opportunity to do so.

The idea that this is victim blaming is a disservice and prevents otherwise good advice from being voiced. If you want the cycle to end you have to do something. You can't control the creeps, you can't know who the creeps are all the time, and you can't defend yourself when you're incapacitated.

This is reality, it's not some fantasy and it isn't about blaming anyone other than the offender and advising people to take the precautions necessary to minimize your risk of harm. That you ignorantly jump on them and put words in their mouth is telling... Personal responsibility goes a long ways and while reality is the way that it is you're responsible for avoiding risky situations like the aforementioned alley. The first level of your protection is you.

This in no way absolves the rapists in this case nor does it blame this victim. Instead, let's get something good from this tragedy, let's use this as a cautionary tale and try to keep self preservation in mind. Reality sucks but it is what it is.
 
2013-03-18 10:41:52 AM
Somebody is really looking hard for something here.  That's what is sick about this.
 
2013-03-18 10:42:56 AM

trappedspirit: Somebody is really looking hard for something here.  That's what is sick about this.


???
 
2013-03-18 10:43:25 AM

WhippingBoy: While I understand and absolutely agree with the intent, "teaching men to stop raping" sounds like it will be as effective as the "war on drugs".

Our track record isn't very good. Five thousand years of "enlighten" though, and we still haven't figured out how to teach people how to stop stealing, murdering, cheating, abusing, slandering, lying, etc. etc. Why on earth would anyone think that things will be different in this situation?


I want my kids to think that stealing is wrong and that kindness and loyalty are good values.  That's my job as a parent, and responsible parents should teach their children to think deeply and reason on questions of morality.
 
2013-03-18 10:44:36 AM

wickedragon: poot_rootbeer: This isn't the same as statutory rape laws, where the ages of the parties are factored into determining whether there was consent and where there was a power disparity.  No matter how old you are when you produce and distribute sexual content involving minors, once it's out there it's available to every pederast with an internet connection.

But does the level of criminal intent scale with the damage done?
Isn't there a difference between murdering someone with a machete and accidentally killing your passenger in a car crash on an unexpectedly slippery road?
I'd say there is a difference between a 16 year old producing a pic of a 16 year old and a 50 year old doing the same, even if the damage done in the two scenarios are equal.


My point is that is a matter of intent, scale and social disparity.  Adults have no business with such images and any willful distribution of them should be punished.  But it makes absolutely no sense to levy the same punishment against someone that produced images from within their own peer group.  A 16 year old doesn't see another 16 year old as a child, they see them as a contemporary and their actions and intents would be based as such.  That is wholly different from the viewpoint of an adult who should clearly see a 16 year old as a juvenile.  An adult distributing images of a juvenile is a completely different thing that an exchange of images between contemporaries.
 
2013-03-18 10:45:16 AM

Biological Ali: serial_crusher: Well, police not doing their job is a real thing.

Friendly bit of advice - if you want to make some argument about rape reporting, you're better off just saying it outright rather than trying to analogize it to something you clearly haven't had any experience with.

Not that that's a bad thing in and of itself, obviously. I mean, I'm glad you haven't had anything stolen from you and sincerely hope that you never have to report such a thing in the future either.


It's true that I've never been robbed, but the time I had a false alarm the cops asked a lot of that kind of question before going in. (the dog thing was more, "hey your dog doesn't look as rattled as he would if somebody was in the house right now").

I guess it's slightly different since they were asking stuff to assess the situation they were about to walk in, not investigate something that already happened.  Meh.
 
2013-03-18 10:45:41 AM

ginandbacon: Snowflake Tubbybottom: ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

Probably because it's inaccurate and shifts blame to society for the criminal activity of the individual.  What else would I call it? Wholly untrue since it's that same groups mores that prosecuted and convicted these little bastards.

How is it inaccurate and how does it shift blame? And remember, there were active attempts by many in the community to impede this prosecution. The State Atty. General has convened a grand jury to investigate all 27 of the school's football team.


The actions of one case, or even several, do not reflect the attitudes of the whole.  If it did we would not seek to prosecute the people who do rape and make sure we know who they are and what they did long after their sentence is carried out.  This culture does not condone rape and the evidence is the convicting of the rapists.

So again the term is inaccurate and shifts blame from the person who commits the crime to the rest of us who would do not turn a blind eye.
 
2013-03-18 10:47:13 AM

UnspokenVoice: Owangotang: Aegius: They're not asking for it....but.... getting so drunk that you pass out for hours is piss poor judgement.  Whether you get beaten, robbed, raped, I think there is always an issue of self responsibility to protect yourself from getting so inebriated that you can no longer function.  That being said....she would have never even known anything had ever happened to her if someone hadn't tipped her off.

This is so much bullsh*t, just because someone is vulnerable does not mean someone else HAS to take advantage of that vulnerability. These monsters CHOSE to prey upon her vulnerability, they could have just as easily protected her by putting her in a separate bedroom to let her sleep it off, all the while stopping anyone from going in there. What did they CHOOSE to do instead? Rape her.

What f*cking planet are we living on when there are serious arguments put out there such as, "Well she chose to get blackout drunk, guess that means it's rapin' time!"? What the fark?

That is not remotely what they said. If you're vulnerable nobody HAS to take advantage of you - you got that part correct. However, if you're vulnerable someone MAY take advantage of you, that is reality. Informing people of reality and advising that they stay safe and avoid vulnerable situations is not a bad thing.

Is it blaming the victim? It is. If you go through a dark alley in a high crime area and do so knowingly and you get mugged you aren't at fault but you are an idiot.

I have a daughter. She's made it through her years - all the way to adulthood - without once being raped (fortunately). It's first a matter of statistics, someone has to come out on the winning side. Also important is that she's well aware of what a dangerous situation is and makes the effort to avoid those situations.

If she put herself in a situation where she was vulnerable and was raped would I blame her? Of course not. I would, however, make it a point to wait until she is more emotionally stable and, ag ...


No.
If you want this to end you need to teach kids right from wrong. I have been to several parties where young (and very pretty) women have gone uncoscious from liquoritis. Do you know how many of those were raped ? None. And I know of at least one sociopath that was present on a few of those parties, and I know at least one incident where he spent an hour getting one of those girls home where her parents could care for her. His parents had done their job right, and psychological illnesses aside he was a decent human being. Kinda depressed, but decent.
You CAN do something about the perps. You can stop them from being perps. You can choose to change your surroundings so that it fits into your moral framework. I for one choose to stand up against sexist idéas even when it's just water cooler jokes. I don't give an aeronautical fecal bun that it might make me the 'bore' at the office (it doesn't), it's the difference between a proper adult and a child where I come from.
 
2013-03-18 10:47:20 AM

RedT: browntimmy: Let's say there's a scenario where a girl accepted an invitation from a guy she just met at a party to come hang out with him and 3 of his friends that she also doesn't know at an abandoned warehouse at 1am, and she's raped. You're not allowed to say things like, "This girl lacks so much common sense she's a danger to herself." Because somehow saying that is equivalent to saying, "The rapists did nothing wrong, it was all her fault."

Because women/girls must be on the lookout at ALL TIMES for potential rape situations.
Men have no idea how it is to feel this way all the time.

This morning I ran around LadyBird lake at 5:30.  I decided to forgo my iPod so that I could hear any footsteps behind me.  I am always very aware of my surrounding and my ability to sprint (and just how fast and how far I can sprint) if necessary.

I also did not run 10 miles because the other 3 miles of the loop are deserted at that hour.  I was NOT afraid of being robbed (of my car key and Garmin, the only things I had on me). I was not afraid of being jumped and beat up by a roving gang of hooligans.
And you bet you ass if I was attacked raped folks would be saying, "What was she doing running in the dark."  "What was she wearing?" "Why was she alone."

I sincerely doubt any man who I saw running on that same loop had ANY concern about his safety beyond tripping over a root and busting his own ass.

This is simply the situation in this country.

Yet, many people don't want to admit that we have a rape culture and want to get offended by the phrase.  But our culture teaches us (both men and women) that gals must be on the lookout at ALL TIMES for potential rape situations.

That's not "culture"?  Bullshiat.


You're assuming a lot.

I'm a reasonably fit, fairly solid looking man. Thankfully I've never really had to test it, but people have told me that I look like I could "take care of myself" if a physical confrontation were to happen.
The concept that I have no concern for my safety when I venture out alone to some relatively isolated spot is complete and utter nonsense. Believe it or not, I consider the same things that you do. If I go running early in the morning, I forego the music so that I'm not surprised by someone jumping out at me. I run on the trail closest to the main highway (instead of the more serene, isolated trail) in order to increase my chances of escape.

Unless you've been one at some point in your life, please don't purport to "know" what it's like to be a man.
 
2013-03-18 10:48:48 AM

StrangeQ: wickedragon: poot_rootbeer: This isn't the same as statutory rape laws, where the ages of the parties are factored into determining whether there was consent and where there was a power disparity.  No matter how old you are when you produce and distribute sexual content involving minors, once it's out there it's available to every pederast with an internet connection.

But does the level of criminal intent scale with the damage done?
Isn't there a difference between murdering someone with a machete and accidentally killing your passenger in a car crash on an unexpectedly slippery road?
I'd say there is a difference between a 16 year old producing a pic of a 16 year old and a 50 year old doing the same, even if the damage done in the two scenarios are equal.

My point is that is a matter of intent, scale and social disparity.  Adults have no business with such images and any willful distribution of them should be punished.  But it makes absolutely no sense to levy the same punishment against someone that produced images from within their own peer group.  A 16 year old doesn't see another 16 year old as a child, they see them as a contemporary and their actions and intents would be based as such.  That is wholly different from the viewpoint of an adult who should clearly see a 16 year old as a juvenile.  An adult distributing images of a juvenile is a completely different thing that an exchange of images between contemporaries.


Then we agree completely :)
 
2013-03-18 10:50:04 AM

CeroX: It's like parking in the ghetto and leaving your doors unlocked... You can't TRUST the people around you not to act like criminals, and leaving your doors unlocked isn't literally asking to have your stereo stolen, but it is a hell of a lot riskier doing so...


The difference is that people are actually interested in dealing with the SOURCE of the crime (theft), not just learning how to avoid being a victim of it.

The second a woman goes on Fox News and makes the equivalent argument for rape, she gets racist death threats.

"Fire prevention" means fireproofing- making sure fires can't start.
"Rape prevention" has nothing to do with 'prevention'. It means being able to STOP AN ATTEMPTED RAPE IN PROGRESS. Because "boys will be boys".
 
2013-03-18 10:51:25 AM

Galileo's Daughter: WhippingBoy: While I understand and absolutely agree with the intent, "teaching men to stop raping" sounds like it will be as effective as the "war on drugs".

Our track record isn't very good. Five thousand years of "enlighten" though, and we still haven't figured out how to teach people how to stop stealing, murdering, cheating, abusing, slandering, lying, etc. etc. Why on earth would anyone think that things will be different in this situation?

I want my kids to think that stealing is wrong and that kindness and loyalty are good values.  That's my job as a parent, and responsible parents should teach their children to think deeply and reason on questions of morality.


Of course. And most people (MEN included) do teach their children these things. But how do you force irresponsible parents to teach their children? How do you teach sociopaths right from wrong?
 
2013-03-18 10:52:12 AM

seadoo2006: Facepalm ... no consent = rape rape.  Are you actually this dense or just willfully ignorant?


Facepalm is right, and it's because of your failure to grasp what I'm saying. It needs to take a hell of a lot more than a woman saying she was raped before sending people to jail for it.
 
2013-03-18 10:53:59 AM

Popcorn Johnny: It needs to take a hell of a lot more than a woman saying she was raped before sending people to jail for it.


Ohio requires corroborating evidence in any case of sexual assault.
 
2013-03-18 10:54:28 AM

Popcorn Johnny: seadoo2006: Facepalm ... no consent = rape rape.  Are you actually this dense or just willfully ignorant?

Facepalm is right, and it's because of your failure to grasp what I'm saying. It needs to take a hell of a lot more than a woman saying she was raped before sending people to jail for it.


What proof do you need PJ? I saw plenty. We're you hoping for video?
 
2013-03-18 10:55:30 AM
CeroX:

Which is more responsible when faced with the situation
A) Walking near a lion's den wearing armor and wielding a spear?
or
B) Walking near a lion's den with a steak hanging around your neck?


In B, you'd get sympathy, and the lions who attacked you would be put down.
In A, you'd probably be questioned by authorities (at least).
 
2013-03-18 10:57:14 AM

Snowflake Tubbybottom: If it did we would not seek to prosecute the people who do rape and make sure we know who they are and what they did long after their sentence is carried out.


Most of the time we don't.
 
2013-03-18 10:57:41 AM

Genevieve Marie: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

You're not the first to make the comparison and it's most certainly a fair and accurate one. Anyone that denies we live in a rape culture isn't paying attention.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/172024/americas-rape-problem-we-refuse -a dmit-there-one#


The thing that's sick about the "rape culture" mentality--not the existence of it, but the insinuation that we have one, is how it's defined.  If our culture condoned rape, these kids wouldn't even be going to juvie.

If anything, the reaction to things like this, and to the Penn State controversy, outline a different but big problem we have.  Did Penn State cover up the horrible things that happened there because the folks at Penn State excuse or even  looooooooooverape?  Did they excuse the Duke bros because rape is awesome?  I don't think so; if anything, all of these are great examples of our jock culture.

Seriously.

Think about it.  Rape culture doesn't explain people who are animal lovers, but got angry because Michael Vick's career was ruined.

People love their bread and circuses more than they love their mothers, wives, and daughters.  It's sick.
 
2013-03-18 10:57:47 AM

Bontesla: ekdikeo4: I just heard something vaguely disturbing about this.  According to something that was just on a local news story, this girl was raped at "several" parties over the course of several days.  Not to even remotely say that the guys weren't wrong to do what they did, but .. this girl needs some help, too.

There were several parties that spanned a single night. She was no longer in control of herself (couldn't walk or talk) by the second party and was unconscious by the third (two players were dragging her in and out).

There's some speculation that date rapes drugs were used but there girl learned about her own violation from twitter so there was very little chemical evidence left to collect via a drug test.

The boys belonged to you Rape Squad. A name they gave themselves before that night.

It's quite likely that they've raped before. This girl was an outsider and stepped forward.


/This.
 
2013-03-18 10:58:18 AM

Waxing_Chewbacca: What proof do you need PJ? I saw plenty. We're you hoping for video?


What proof did you see? The tweets, photos and other evidence that made it to the internet were not sent out by these two suspects. The video linked in the thread yesterday of the kid talking about rape and having a dick in her butt was not one of the two guys that were convicted yesterday.

Feel free to provide the evidence against these two and I'll change my opinion if there's proof that they are indeed rapists. Right now it seems that they were convicted for being douche bags and passing around pictures of a naked, drunk, peed on 16 year old. A prosecution witness even testified that one of the suspects stopped any sort of sexual touching of the girl as soon as she passed out. That sure doesn't sound like a rapist to me.
 
2013-03-18 11:00:04 AM
LOL Holy shiat. It's like half my ignore list has found this thread. The trolls must be out in force today.

The bonus of the ignore list is that it saves a lot of time. So, if I haven't and don't reply then you can probably guess why. It's probably because you're not smart enough to bother with. My policy is to only ignore stupid people and to never ignore people I simply disagree with. (Otherwise, well, how would I learn?)

Anyhow, hopefully there will be some additional charges. Whoever provided the alcohol and place to party needs to see the inside of a jail cell. Any adults who were aware of or helped this, in any way, needs to answer some questions at the very least.

Someone posted a link in here that indicated additional charges may be forthcoming and I'm curious about that. An adult charged with being an accessory to rape is going to do more time than both of these kids do. Given the publicity of this event, I'd not be the least bit surprised to see that levied against the adult who supplied the residence or the alcohol.
 
2013-03-18 11:01:21 AM

The Muthaship: Popcorn Johnny: It needs to take a hell of a lot more than a woman saying she was raped before sending people to jail for it.

Ohio requires corroborating evidence in any case of sexual assault.


Well, lets see what we know.  They admit to sexual contact, including penetration with their fingers.  They claim consent.  She denies consent.  They post pictures of her in a condition making it impossible (objectively) for her to consent to anything.  So...her word on consent plus their video of her incapable of consent plus their making fun of her condition, on video, that she's like dead.

Pretty open and shut as far as I can see.  They admit she's incapable of consent by her being "dead".  They video her in a condition that makes it clear she's incapable of consent.  They admit to the sexual contact including penetration.  I can't imagine them not being convicted in a criminal setting under these circumstances, much less a juvenile setting.

To claim they are innocent at this point is naive at best.
 
2013-03-18 11:04:14 AM

I_C_Weener: To claim they are innocent at this point is naive at best.


I agree completely.  But, the poster I was responding to seemed to be under the impression that a person can be convicted of a sexual assault/rape based only on the allegations made by the victim.  I was just letting him know that, at least in Ohio, that's not the case.  Some corroborating evidence of those allegations must be provided.
 
2013-03-18 11:04:15 AM

WhippingBoy: Unless you've been one at some point in your life, please don't purport to "know" what it's like to be a man.


I had no idea you were afraid of being raped when you are out on an early morning run in a low crime area.

My apologies.
 
2013-03-18 11:05:38 AM

feckingmorons: penthesilea: [i470.photobucket.com image 500x333]

Shameful.

Contrast that with FoxNews who quotes the mother of the young woman who was criminally assaulted saying "[This crime]does not define who my daughter is. She will persevere, grow and move on."

That is exactly the story that needs to be told. Crime victims, and especially victims of sexual battery, are indeed victims. The criminals are not to be pitied for their poor choices, they are to be imprisoned.

Like Fox News or not (and I don't really watch any of the cable news) that is the right story, not how these two idiots ruined their lives by engaging in criminal sexual battery and other crimes. Screw them.


I agree with you and disagree at the same time. The story that the news should be telling is indeed the one Fox is telling.

At the same time, since this kind of thing does still happen, there needs to be a big bold notice of "if you do this you will ruin your entire life" to hammer it through the skulls of idiots. The hand-wringing Nancy Grace tears are completely inappropriate though.

Perhaps CNN is targeting a dumber audience.

/liberals are the dumber audience
 
2013-03-18 11:05:46 AM

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: What proof do you need PJ? I saw plenty. We're you hoping for video?

What proof did you see? The tweets, photos and other evidence that made it to the internet were not sent out by these two suspects. The video linked in the thread yesterday of the kid talking about rape and having a dick in her butt was not one of the two guys that were convicted yesterday.

Feel free to provide the evidence against these two and I'll change my opinion if there's proof that they are indeed rapists. Right now it seems that they were convicted for being douche bags and passing around pictures of a naked, drunk, peed on 16 year old. A prosecution witness even testified that one of the suspects stopped any sort of sexual touching of the girl as soon as she passed out. That sure doesn't sound like a rapist to me.


So there was NO sex. Didn't happen. She passed out and pics were taken. That's what you believe? I think we can agree she was in no condition to consent which is as good as a NO in my book.
 
2013-03-18 11:07:30 AM

I_C_Weener: Well, lets see what we know.  They admit to sexual contact, including penetration with their fingers.  They claim consent.  She denies consent.  They post pictures of her in a condition making it impossible (objectively) for her to consent to anything.  So...her word on consent plus their video of her incapable of consent plus their making fun of her condition, on video, that she's like dead.


So you have proof that the sexual contact happened after she was passed out and not before, or that she never gave consent? Also, as I've already said, the video posted was some other kid, not the two guys that were convicted.

You sure seem willing to put all your faith in the testimony of a 16 year old with a drinking problem. Sorry that I need more before condemning these guys as rapists.
 
2013-03-18 11:08:18 AM

ginandbacon: Snowflake Tubbybottom: If it did we would not seek to prosecute the people who do rape and make sure we know who they are and what they did long after their sentence is carried out.

Most of the time we don't.


And sadly that is where we can blame the most victims; for not reporting.  Along with teaching boys not to rape and respect women we also need to teach our girls that if it ever happens to them it isn't their fault and not to feel stigmatized because of it. The not reporting of rape only tends to lead to more rape.
 
2013-03-18 11:08:59 AM

RedT: WhippingBoy: Unless you've been one at some point in your life, please don't purport to "know" what it's like to be a man.

I had no idea you were afraid of being raped when you are out on an early morning run in a low crime area.

My apologies.


Don't be an idiot. I was responding to this part of your comment:  I sincerely doubt any man who I saw running on that same loop had ANY concern about his safety beyond tripping over a root and busting his own ass.
 
2013-03-18 11:09:05 AM

Philbb: Poppy Harlow: "... had such promising futures, star football player, very good students...."

Just as an aside; would they have been talking about these boys ruining their lives if they were not football players? If they had been, perhaps, very good students and members of the school band?

The lack of interest in the victim doesn't surprise me at all. I've known that since the beginning of the Penn State scandal when so people were all broke up over losing a coach and had no sympathy for the alleged victims.


Yeah but in that case the coach wasn't the one raping the kids, so it was a little different. You can argue how much or how little he enabled the guy who was raping the kids, but it seemed like he really just didn't know what to do. His bosses didn't care it was happening and he was too scared to go to the media.
 
2013-03-18 11:09:16 AM

Popcorn Johnny: I_C_Weener: Well, lets see what we know.  They admit to sexual contact, including penetration with their fingers.  They claim consent.  She denies consent.  They post pictures of her in a condition making it impossible (objectively) for her to consent to anything.  So...her word on consent plus their video of her incapable of consent plus their making fun of her condition, on video, that she's like dead.

So you have proof that the sexual contact happened after she was passed out and not before, or that she never gave consent? Also, as I've already said, the video posted was some other kid, not the two guys that were convicted.

You sure seem willing to put all your faith in the testimony of a 16 year old with a drinking problem. Sorry that I need more before condemning these guys as rapists.


They admitted to contact... Do you think she was in condition to consent?!!! You saw her condition.
 
2013-03-18 11:09:43 AM

Popcorn Johnny: I_C_Weener: Well, lets see what we know.  They admit to sexual contact, including penetration with their fingers.  They claim consent.  She denies consent.  They post pictures of her in a condition making it impossible (objectively) for her to consent to anything.  So...her word on consent plus their video of her incapable of consent plus their making fun of her condition, on video, that she's like dead.

So you have proof that the sexual contact happened after she was passed out and not before, or that she never gave consent? Also, as I've already said, the video posted was some other kid, not the two guys that were convicted.

You sure seem willing to put all your faith in the testimony of a 16 year old with a drinking problem. Sorry that I need more before condemning these guys as rapists.


As I'm sure they judge was given.
 
2013-03-18 11:11:23 AM

Typhoid: Bontesla: Yogimus: Bontesla:

You are totally right. Much better to suck it up and move on.

Which isn't anything remotely close to what I said.

We can't demand rape victims come forward if we refuse to protect them. If we blame them for tempting the rapists. If show more sympathize with their attackers than we show with the victims.

We, as a society, are responsible for this.

THIS. Look at what has been said about this poor girl. Seeing what women have to put up with when they accuse, I'm shocked any guy has the balls to say women are to blame if they don't come forward. There's tons of proof in this case, and they barely got a slap on the wrist. And she is STILL treated like she deserved it and the poor young men are ruined for life.

/I couldn't. I was 16. I didn't know him. And I was still terrified to come forward because of crap like this.
//not coming back to this thread because I'm not putting myself through all the "more girls were raped because of you" bull.
///girl from this story said she had one drink. It was likely spiked but there was no proof (boo puns) for trial. But go ahead, call her a drunk whore. Because if she deserved it, then it can't happen to you and yours, right?


This girl's mom has been an advocate for her daughter. Kudos to her.

"The girl's mother also gathered some of the material from social media and brought it to authorities."  http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/13/justice/ohio-steubenville-case/?hpt=us_ c 2

"Lipps added that "as bad as things have been for all of the children involved in this case, they can all change their lives for the better," while the accuser's mother echoed that, saying the case "does not define who my daughter is. She will persevere, grow and move on."

Read more:  http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/17/teens-with-immunity-testify-on-g i rl-intoxication-level-in-ohio-rape-trial/#ixzz2Nu7iGXMh
 
2013-03-18 11:11:35 AM

GAT_00: bronyaur1: I find it curious that those who defend Fox journalism all of a sudden are outraged about this.

Meh, they have something legitimate to smear CNN with for a change.  Of course, since nobody actually watches CNN, this is really not doing a whole lot, but they like to pretend they matter.


What's really amusing is when people who love CNN and hate Fox hate on Nancy Grace, not knowing that CNN pays Nancy Grace's salary.
 
2013-03-18 11:12:33 AM

serial_crusher: It's true that I've never been robbed, but the time I had a false alarm the cops asked a lot of that kind of question before going in. (the dog thing was more, "hey your dog doesn't look as rattled as he would if somebody was in the house right now").

I guess it's slightly different since they were asking stuff to assess the situation they were about to walk in, not investigate something that already happened. Meh.


True, the dog thing might make sense if they knew you had a dog beforehand. The point I'm trying to make, though, is that everything you've brought up can be covered by basic questions like "Did you notice any damage or evidence of tampering on locks or windows?" or "Can you tell me who had access to your apartment?" Going out out of the way to ask pointed questions like "Oh, did you forget to lock your door?" doesn't contribute anything to the investigative process - it would just be the cop being a dick.

Moreover, the point brought up by the person you replied to wasn't about questions that are relevant to an investigation, it was about things that serve no purpose other than to say "Well you should have done things differently." Now, maybe it's just because cops in Montreal are just generally more aloof, but they certainly didn't take it upon themselves to lecture me about things like that, aside from telling me that I should report things like this immediately in the future. And even that was for a very specific reason (one of the things that went missing was my passport; missing/stolen official ID documents like that represent their own distinct risks that cops are understandably quite concerned about).
 
2013-03-18 11:12:40 AM

Snowflake Tubbybottom: hat is where we can blame the most victims


Telling comment, that.
 
2013-03-18 11:12:54 AM

Popcorn Johnny: I_C_Weener: Well, lets see what we know.  They admit to sexual contact, including penetration with their fingers.  They claim consent.  She denies consent.  They post pictures of her in a condition making it impossible (objectively) for her to consent to anything.  So...her word on consent plus their video of her incapable of consent plus their making fun of her condition, on video, that she's like dead.

So you have proof that the sexual contact happened after she was passed out and not before, or that she never gave consent? Also, as I've already said, the video posted was some other kid, not the two guys that were convicted.

You sure seem willing to put all your faith in the testimony of a 16 year old with a drinking problem. Sorry that I need more before condemning these guys as rapists.


Well, since it was a closed juvenile proceeding, we'll have to wonder.  The benefit of this type of system is that a trained legal expert, we'll call him a judge, got to make the decision under existing law.  But, as I said, from the information we do know, I'd have no problem convicting them.  But I imagine, there was more evidence presented in the trial.
 
2013-03-18 11:12:55 AM
What kind of parents do these animals have?
 
2013-03-18 11:17:09 AM

vudukungfu: What kind of parents do these animals have?


Useless ones
 
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