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(Opposing Views)   CNN host Candy Crowley and reporter Poppy Harlow are almost in tears over the "ruined lives" of the two Steubenville, Ohio teen football players who were found guilty of gang-raping a 16-year-old girl   (opposingviews.com) divider line 659
    More: Sick, Steubenville, Candy Crowley, Poppy Harlow, CNN, CNN host, Ohio, guilty verdicts, rapists  
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20142 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Mar 2013 at 6:09 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-18 09:35:22 AM

Waxing_Chewbacca: I think it only fair you use your real name so the women in your life will know that, should they get drunk with you, they're in for a rape. Because they'll be asking for it, right?


That's just a plain ignorant thing to say. If the guys are indeed rapists, they deserve to be punished. To this point, I've seen no indisputable evidence that they did anything other than have some drunken sex with an equally drunk teen with a history of being a party girl.
 
2013-03-18 09:37:43 AM

serial_crusher: Suppose somebody breaks into your house and steals all your stuff, so you mosey on down to the police station to file a report. Cop starts asking tough questions like "did you leave the door unlocked?", "do you have a dog?", "oh, you forgot to set your alarm system that day?"


What the fark? I've reported missing/stolen property in the past and haven't been asked any of those questions. What earthly reason would there even be for asking something like "Do you have a dog?"
 
2013-03-18 09:37:49 AM

penthesilea: [i470.photobucket.com image 500x333]

Shameful.


Rape culture?  What rape culture?

/boys will be boys, te-he!
 
2013-03-18 09:38:07 AM

Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: I think it only fair you use your real name so the women in your life will know that, should they get drunk with you, they're in for a rape. Because they'll be asking for it, right?

That's just a plain ignorant thing to say. If the guys are indeed rapists, they deserve to be punished. To this point, I've seen no indisputable evidence that they did anything other than have some drunken sex with an equally drunk teen with a history of being a party girl.


Facepalm ... no consent = rape rape.  Are you actually this dense or just willfully ignorant?

Let's be very clear on this ... because I'm sure the next time you're drunk, you wouldn't want some bigger guy having sex with you, right? Or are you okay with someone pounding your ass into submission when drunk?
 
2013-03-18 09:38:52 AM

Dragonflew: Seriously? What the fark is with all the female rape apologists lately?


What the fark is up with all the people who are fine with taking a woman's word that they were raped without requiring any proof?

Duke lacrosse much?
 
2013-03-18 09:39:17 AM
Fark them in the a.

/lookin at you, prison rapist man
 
2013-03-18 09:39:58 AM

liam76: ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

I think people are objecting to it being broadly applied to the US.


What's wrong with it being applied in general to this country? 

"The majority of sexual assaults are not reported to the authorities.
The Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) reports that the majority of rapes and sexual assaults perpetrated against women and girls in the United States between 1992 and 2000 were not reported to the police. Only 36 percent of rapes, 34 percent of attempted rapes, and 26 percent of sexual assaults were reported.

Self-blame or guilt.Shame, embarrassment, or desire to keep the assault a private matter.Humiliation or fear of the perpetrator or other individual's perceptions.Fear of not being believed or of being accused of playing a role in the crime.Lack of trust in the criminal justice system.According to the National Institute of Justice. How is that not indicative of a US-wide problem with rape culture?
 
2013-03-18 09:41:33 AM

TV's Vinnie: [i470.photobucket.com image 500x333]

Notice that what gives these Loverboys such a pass by these media cretins is that they were "promising star football players". Like as if that dirty slut destroyed some billionaire a couple of draft picks for his college football racket. Boo farking hoo hoo hoo! Seems this culture really needs a brain enema to flush out this football jock worship they have. Football is NOT everything.


Bingo.
Nailed it.
The same daddy warbucks' that control the media, and yes, it is controlled, are the same, if not in bed with the daddy warbucks' that own teams. There is a select small amount of the population like is very wealthy and likes to play puppeteer. They have no qualms about breaking rules, lying, or committing crimes to stay wealthy, either.
For a citation, you can check out how the apologists vote.
 
2013-03-18 09:41:57 AM

Popcorn Johnny: Dragonflew: Seriously? What the fark is with all the female rape apologists lately?

What the fark is up with all the people who are fine with taking a woman's word that they were raped without requiring any proof?

Duke lacrosse much?


From your posts in the other thread, I don't even think you believe in rape.
 
2013-03-18 09:42:56 AM
They're not asking for it....but.... getting so drunk that you pass out for hours is piss poor judgement.  Whether you get beaten, robbed, raped, I think there is always an issue of self responsibility to protect yourself from getting so inebriated that you can no longer function.  That being said....she would have never even known anything had ever happened to her if someone hadn't tipped her off.
 
2013-03-18 09:45:12 AM

doglover: Tricky Chicken: Are you comparing rape to various socialist policies? Or were you going for the wealth redistribution idea?

I for one would like to opt out of "rape redistribution" preemptively, just in case.


I don't think it would be an opt out situation.  Wimins have the hoohaa, mens wants the hoohaas.  It is clearly a monopoly.

This is clearly an 'eat the rich' policy I can get behind.
 
2013-03-18 09:45:38 AM

ginandbacon: Only 36 percent of rapes, 34 percent of attempted rapes, and 26 percent of sexual assaults were reported.


If they weren't reported, how do they know about them?

Also, you're making a mistake buying into the PR of a "justice" system. We do not a justice system. We have a legal system, and honestly it's been my experience you're right not to trust it. I've rarely seen it do anything but harm.

That said, it's what we do have and occasionally that harm falls on the right targets. If you can prove you're raped you're not gonna find a more helpful collection of harmers to do your dirty work for you than the police. Rapists are the favorite target of EVERY branch of law enforcement. They hates 'em more than normal people.
 
2013-03-18 09:45:40 AM

serial_crusher: Bontesla: We're responsible for the reason why rape victims largely don't come forward. Perhaps not you or I - but certainly our society. We punish the victims. We collectively ask what they could have done to be responsible for their own rapes.

Why is rape the only crime that's a big deal in that department?  Suppose somebody breaks into your house and steals all your stuff, so you mosey on down to the police station to file a report.  Cop starts asking tough questions like "did you leave the door unlocked?", "do you have a dog?", "oh, you forgot to set your alarm system that day?"  Victim blaming, I say!  Next time that victim gets robbed, they'll be less likely to report it!

/ well not really, but only because there's not people like you going around convincing robbery victims that they should let their robbers go free instead of cooperating with the police.


Yeah, that was a sad moment. I placed 'em into my bit bucket and they'll be ignored from here on out. Nothing of value was lost. They complain about the rape culture and then condone keeping the cycle going. It's sick but maybe they want to keep the situation up so that they can have the attention and the reason to complain? I don't know, I'm not a shrink. I figure it is better that I ignore them than point out the hypocrisy and have to suffer the whining.
 
2013-03-18 09:49:58 AM
I haven't been paying much attention to this case. But I read about the judge's verdict this morning and I'm not seeing how these boys fingering a drunk girl's vajaja can be classified as a "brutal gang rape." As I understand it, she was not penetrated with any penis. I'm not saying that the boys shouldn't be beaten senseless, but I think the media has made a bigger deal out of this than it actually was.
 
2013-03-18 09:50:16 AM

liam76: ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?

I think people are objecting to it being broadly applied to the US.


Why shouldn't it be broadly applied to the US? It's a country-wide problem. According to the National Institute of Justice:

"The Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) reports that the majority of rapes and sexual assaults perpetrated against women and girls in the United States between 1992 and 2000 were not reported to the police. Only 36 percent of rapes, 34 percent of attempted rapes, and 26 percent of sexual assaults were reported.
Self-blame or guilt.Shame, embarrassment, or desire to keep the assault a private matter.Humiliation or fear of the perpetrator or other individual's perceptions.Fear of not being believed or of being accused of playing a role in the crime.Lack of trust in the criminal justice system."Is this not evidence of the existence of a rape culture in the US? Look at the way CNN covered the outcome of this trial. Look at the comments here and elsewhere. What does that indicate to these people who are so offended by the term rape culture and applying it to the entire country? To me, it indicates that the US needs to get its farking act together as a culture when it comes to confronting sexual predation. This seems pretty simple to me.
 
2013-03-18 09:51:45 AM

ginandbacon: To me, it indicates that the US needs to get its farking act together as a culture when it comes to confronting sexual predation.


Step One: REPORT IT.

Step Two: REPORT IT.

Step Three: REPORT IT.
 
2013-03-18 09:54:30 AM
What exactly is the "rape culture"? Personally, I think it's but one aspect of a larger concept which pervades modern society. (Namely, that anything you own is ripe for the plucking, if the case can be made for taking it from you, or if the person coveting it can appeal to a third party's sympathies.) These CNN reporters are a perfect case of this concept in action.
 
2013-03-18 09:54:38 AM

Biological Ali: serial_crusher: Suppose somebody breaks into your house and steals all your stuff, so you mosey on down to the police station to file a report. Cop starts asking tough questions like "did you leave the door unlocked?", "do you have a dog?", "oh, you forgot to set your alarm system that day?"

What the fark? I've reported missing/stolen property in the past and haven't been asked any of those questions. What earthly reason would there even be for asking something like "Do you have a dog?"


Well, police not doing their job is a real thing.  Sure, lots of times they just tell you they're too busy to go on a wild goose chase for your shiat, and you'd better get over it.  But if they intend on actually investigating, it's relevant to ask questions about how the guy got access to your house.
They'd probably ask about the dog because they want to look at cute photos and comment on how snuggly he looks.
 
2013-03-18 09:55:28 AM

seadoo2006: Popcorn Johnny: Waxing_Chewbacca: I think it only fair you use your real name so the women in your life will know that, should they get drunk with you, they're in for a rape. Because they'll be asking for it, right?

That's just a plain ignorant thing to say. If the guys are indeed rapists, they deserve to be punished. To this point, I've seen no indisputable evidence that they did anything other than have some drunken sex with an equally drunk teen with a history of being a party girl.

Facepalm ... no consent = rape rape.  Are you actually this dense or just willfully ignorant?

Let's be very clear on this ... because I'm sure the next time you're drunk, you wouldn't want some bigger guy having sex with you, right? Or are you okay with someone pounding your ass into submission when drunk?


I was going to respond to PJ myself but I'll just day I couldn't have said it better than you did... Except to add that there are pictures of her being dragged around and they called themselves the rape squad, asshole!!!!
 
2013-03-18 09:56:16 AM

RobSeace: Ukab the Great: You do believe in the Bible...don't you?

Believe in it? I've actually seen one before!

borg: Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives? Thats what will ruin their lives and any chance of decent employment.

[i.imgur.com image 640x425]


Eh...  we should not be handling criminal prosecution with vengeance in mind.

As deplorable as what these kids did was, well, first:  They are kids.  That is not a sympathetic statement, just fact.  Secondly, things like the Sex Offender registry do in fact ruin lives and, really, once you have that on your record, what are you going to do?  You are practically forced into worse crimes out of sheer self preservation.

Our criminal justice system needs an overhaul.  I don't know what to recommend, and I don't say this out of any sympathy for the perpetrators here, just a sad fact - what we are doing, does not work, and in fact does more harm than good.
 
2013-03-18 09:57:47 AM

Aegius: They're not asking for it....but.... getting so drunk that you pass out for hours is piss poor judgement.  Whether you get beaten, robbed, raped, I think there is always an issue of self responsibility to protect yourself from getting so inebriated that you can no longer function.  That being said....she would have never even known anything had ever happened to her if someone hadn't tipped her off.


This is so much bullsh*t, just because someone is vulnerable does not mean someone else HAS to take advantage of that vulnerability. These monsters CHOSE to prey upon her vulnerability, they could have just as easily protected her by putting her in a separate bedroom to let her sleep it off, all the while stopping anyone from going in there. What did they CHOOSE to do instead? Rape her.

What f*cking planet are we living on when there are serious arguments put out there such as, "Well she chose to get blackout drunk, guess that means it's rapin' time!"? What the fark?
 
2013-03-18 09:59:04 AM

kingoomieiii: This is literally the first thing you've said that I agree with.


Kudos to you for having enough time in your life to remember what anybody else on Fark has said.
 
2013-03-18 10:00:41 AM

LiteWerk: So those sick people feel sorry for the PERPS rather than the victim?  Really??!!  I think they may deserve more jail time than they've been given.  And to be clear, the arrogant, self-entitled little punks brought it upon themselves.  Also, after they get out of jail, I expect them to give every female they encounter for the rest of their sorry lives the utmost respect in every situation, or else hopefully a bunch of bigger guys beats the crap out of them.  Would also hope every young female they encounter refuses to have anything with their disgusting selves.

/they should be shunned for the rest of their lives


Pity is not zero sum.
 
2013-03-18 10:01:19 AM

notatrollorami: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

Ok am I missing something here? I'll grant you I have given scant attention to this case, but wasn't this a situation wherein two guys fingering a passed out girl? When I read the article I was stunned that it referred to this incident as a brutal gang rape. Now you're comparing this to the Indian incidents. Do I not know something about this case or are there really people who don't grasp the huge divide between fingering a passed out girl and actual violent public bloody gang rape of a screaming woman who later dies from the injuries?

///Glad they got convicted


A lot of people tend to get a little too black-and-white about rape.

Let's say there's a scenario where a girl accepted an invitation from a guy she just met at a party to come hang out with him and 3 of his friends that she also doesn't know at an abandoned warehouse at 1am, and she's raped. You're not allowed to say things like, "This girl lacks so much common sense she's a danger to herself." Because somehow saying that is equivalent to saying, "The rapists did nothing wrong, it was all her fault."
 
2013-03-18 10:02:23 AM

Mobutu: Our criminal justice system needs an overhaul.


There is no justice in the legals system.
 
2013-03-18 10:03:11 AM
What horrid people!
 
2013-03-18 10:03:47 AM

Dragonflew: Seriously? What the fark is with all the female rape apologists lately?


There are woman who have been raised to believe that men will be men and so you shouldn't put yourself in a bad position. True? Not going there. To me rape is rape regardless of what a woman wears or how drunk she is. She says no then NO is the answer.
 
2013-03-18 10:03:49 AM

hubiestubert: These young men are damn lucky to have gotten off this easy, and not in someplace, like say, Texas, where a judge might have looked askance if the young men happened to have had horrible accidents like falling onto a couple of baseball bats several dozen times, or drowned themselves in their own toilets...


If it was Texas, these boys would never have seen a bit of trouble. High-school football is a religion down there.
The victim's family would be facing constant harrassment and threats, her parents would probably lose their jobs, and their house would "mysteriously" burn down.
 
2013-03-18 10:04:23 AM
The media just sucks with this story. They over covered the Sandusky story and repeatedly asked if Paterno should've been charged for not reporting things earlier to police. They biatched and moaned about the Football Culture insulating players from punishment. And yet I've only heard one sentence about the Steubenville coach possibly being charged with covering for these players and have heard nothing about the parents who hosted these parties or who will be charged for serving minors. Did the media learn nothing from Penn State?
 
2013-03-18 10:06:43 AM

browntimmy: notatrollorami: rynthetyn: What pisses me off to no end is that the American media goes and acts like the US is so superior to India when covering the Delhi gang rape case, but then they turn around and do the exact same victim blaming and feeling sorry for the rapists that they love to point fingers about when it happens elsewhere.

Ok am I missing something here? I'll grant you I have given scant attention to this case, but wasn't this a situation wherein two guys fingering a passed out girl? When I read the article I was stunned that it referred to this incident as a brutal gang rape. Now you're comparing this to the Indian incidents. Do I not know something about this case or are there really people who don't grasp the huge divide between fingering a passed out girl and actual violent public bloody gang rape of a screaming woman who later dies from the injuries?

///Glad they got convicted

A lot of people tend to get a little too black-and-white about rape.

Let's say there's a scenario where a girl accepted an invitation from a guy she just met at a party to come hang out with him and 3 of his friends that she also doesn't know at an abandoned warehouse at 1am, and she's raped. You're not allowed to say things like, "This girl lacks so much common sense she's a danger to herself." Because somehow saying that is equivalent to saying, "The rapists did nothing wrong, it was all her fault."


Yes, some thing get a little trigger happy on the whole "stop blaming the victim" mindset, but can you blame them, considering the amount of actual blaming the victim that goes on?
 
2013-03-18 10:07:06 AM

doglover: ginandbacon: To me, it indicates that the US needs to get its farking act together as a culture when it comes to confronting sexual predation.

Step One: REPORT IT.

Step Two: REPORT IT.

Step Three: REPORT IT.


I wish I'd been together enough to report what happened to me, but it was so terrifying and messed up that I spent ten years not even admitting to myself that I had been raped, and telling myself to just be happy I was alive and hadn't had my name smeared in public (both of my rapists were American Heroes back in '02, and one was married). I *knew* it couldn't have been rape because no one would believe me, for all of the "traditional" victim-blaming reasons.

I really do hope we can strengthen our culture to the point where women and men feel there is a strong enough network of support to report rape. It is going to take a lot of work starting with teaching the very young the value of all human beings.
 
2013-03-18 10:07:51 AM

ginandbacon: How on earth does anyone object to the term rape culture? What else would you call the mores of a group that condone and minimize the horror of sexual assault?


Probably because it's inaccurate and shifts blame to society for the criminal activity of the individual.  What else would I call it? Wholly untrue since it's that same groups mores that prosecuted and convicted these little bastards.
 
2013-03-18 10:08:03 AM

Jorn the Younger: Yes, some thing people get a


/got a little trigger happy with the "add comment" button
 
2013-03-18 10:10:08 AM

UnspokenVoice: LiteWerk: So those sick people feel sorry for the PERPS rather than the victim?  Really??!!  I think they may deserve more jail time than they've been given.  And to be clear, the arrogant, self-entitled little punks brought it upon themselves.  Also, after they get out of jail, I expect them to give every female they encounter for the rest of their sorry lives the utmost respect in every situation, or else hopefully a bunch of bigger guys beats the crap out of them.  Would also hope every young female they encounter refuses to have anything with their disgusting selves.

/they should be shunned for the rest of their lives

Is your world so black and white? It is possible to feel sorry for everyone involved you know. I don't feel sorry for any of them but I'm not a very empathetic person and honestly don't care much for my fellow humans so I guess I'm a bad person for not wasting the emotional energy.

Either way, it is possible to have empathy for everyone. It is okay to discuss that empathy even.



I don't feel empathy or sympathy for anyone in TFA.
Decisions have consequence.

1) People should not rape others.
2) People should not get stinking pass out drunk in public.

Either of those choices can and do ruin lives.
 
2013-03-18 10:11:44 AM

serial_crusher: Well, police not doing their job is a real thing.


Friendly bit of advice - if you want to make some argument about rape reporting, you're better off just saying it outright rather than trying to analogize it to something you clearly haven't had any experience with.

Not that that's a bad thing in and of itself, obviously. I mean, I'm glad you haven't had anything stolen from you and sincerely hope that you never have to report such a thing in the future either.
 
2013-03-18 10:12:10 AM

T. Dawg: doglover: ginandbacon: To me, it indicates that the US needs to get its farking act together as a culture when it comes to confronting sexual predation.

Step One: REPORT IT.

Step Two: REPORT IT.

Step Three: REPORT IT.

I wish I'd been together enough to report what happened to me, but it was so terrifying and messed up that I spent ten years not even admitting to myself that I had been raped, and telling myself to just be happy I was alive and hadn't had my name smeared in public (both of my rapists were American Heroes back in '02, and one was married). I *knew* it couldn't have been rape because no one would believe me, for all of the "traditional" victim-blaming reasons.

I really do hope we can strengthen our culture to the point where women and men feel there is a strong enough network of support to report rape. It is going to take a lot of work starting with teaching the very young the value of all human beings.


Boudica is a good role model for a young lady.
 
2013-03-18 10:12:25 AM

Jake Havechek: To: doug from uplandThe poor, innocent, virginal, pure girl in this case just has such bad luck doesn't she?!
She's a female and by definition not able to be accountable for her actions. Is that how it is? It's a question that occurs to me as I have followed this case.
The girl is a disgrace to her family and her community. Tell me how she isn't.
15 posted on Monday, March 18, 2013 2:21:57 AM by

Freepers: a world of compassion


To be fair, it's probably a troll. Most of the freepers are in the "hang'em high and dry" camp.
 
2013-03-18 10:12:44 AM

Owangotang: Aegius: They're not asking for it....but.... getting so drunk that you pass out for hours is piss poor judgement.  Whether you get beaten, robbed, raped, I think there is always an issue of self responsibility to protect yourself from getting so inebriated that you can no longer function.  That being said....she would have never even known anything had ever happened to her if someone hadn't tipped her off.

This is so much bullsh*t, just because someone is vulnerable does not mean someone else HAS to take advantage of that vulnerability. These monsters CHOSE to prey upon her vulnerability, they could have just as easily protected her by putting her in a separate bedroom to let her sleep it off, all the while stopping anyone from going in there. What did they CHOOSE to do instead? Rape her.

What f*cking planet are we living on when there are serious arguments put out there such as, "Well she chose to get blackout drunk, guess that means it's rapin' time!"? What the fark?


That's not what he's saying and you know it...

It's like parking in the ghetto and leaving your doors unlocked... You can't TRUST the people around you not to act like criminals, and leaving your doors unlocked isn't literally asking to have your stereo stolen, but it is a hell of a lot riskier doing so...

Here's another one for you:

Which is more responsible when faced with the situation
A) Walking near a lion's den wearing armor and wielding a spear?
or
B) Walking near a lion's den with a steak hanging around your neck?

It should be painfully obvious that UNTIL society changes, that women should assume that going to a party with a bunch of horny men is as dangerous as carrying a briefcase full of money in the projects...

We should be teaching men not to rape, and at the same time, we should be teaching girls how to protect themselves, from self defense classes, to just teaching that self defense classes don't mean shiat if you get blackout drunk...

It's simply a safety issue... it's safer to not get so drunk you black out

People can't be trusted... period... no matter what they were taught, people will do evil and inhumane things, and to trust people is stupid and you should know better....
 
2013-03-18 10:13:16 AM

Mobutu: RobSeace: Ukab the Great: You do believe in the Bible...don't you?

Believe in it? I've actually seen one before!

borg: Do they have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives? Thats what will ruin their lives and any chance of decent employment.

[i.imgur.com image 640x425]

Eh...  we should not be handling criminal prosecution with vengeance in mind.

As deplorable as what these kids did was, well, first:  They are kids.  That is not a sympathetic statement, just fact.  Secondly, things like the Sex Offender registry do in fact ruin lives and, really, once you have that on your record, what are you going to do?  You are practically forced into worse crimes out of sheer self preservation.

Our criminal justice system needs an overhaul.  I don't know what to recommend, and I don't say this out of any sympathy for the perpetrators here, just a sad fact - what we are doing, does not work, and in fact does more harm than good.


The very last thing that the justice system needs is an "overhaul" by some ideologue or ideologues who are upset because it has yielded a result they don't like. Our justice system is the result of the gradual evolution of centuries of legal and social precedent - and any good changes that come will be slow, cautious, and incremental. The idea that there is something out there that will "work" when one is dealing with psychopaths and sociopaths (which most violent criminals are) is not one that appears to have much evidence to support it. It may not exist. Either way, some radical "overhaul" of 5000 years of precedent is not going to fix it overnight.
 
2013-03-18 10:13:25 AM

Wolf_Blitzer: Prison education and work placement programs have been shown to drive down repeat offenses; I doubt the same can be said for giving inmates fridges and TVs.


I doubt it too, but if it were to be empirically proven to make a difference, I wouldn't deny inmates those devices just because it could subjectively feel like "coddling" them.

A prisoner who is expected to prepare their own food and who is keeping up with culture might be easier to re-integrate into society than one who is issued three trays of slop per day and has a library of third-hand paperbacks for entertainment.
 
2013-03-18 10:15:56 AM

T. Dawg: doglover: ginandbacon: To me, it indicates that the US needs to get its farking act together as a culture when it comes to confronting sexual predation.

Step One: REPORT IT.

Step Two: REPORT IT.

Step Three: REPORT IT.

I wish I'd been together enough to report what happened to me, but it was so terrifying and messed up that I spent ten years not even admitting to myself that I had been raped, and telling myself to just be happy I was alive and hadn't had my name smeared in public (both of my rapists were American Heroes back in '02, and one was married). I *knew* it couldn't have been rape because no one would believe me, for all of the "traditional" victim-blaming reasons.

I really do hope we can strengthen our culture to the point where women and men feel there is a strong enough network of support to report rape. It is going to take a lot of work starting with teaching the very young the value of all human beings.


Your story was just soul crushing. My heart goes out to you.
 
2013-03-18 10:16:25 AM

cman: How does one teach others not to rape?

I hate to say this, but rape is part of humanity. It is an aspect of the animal kingdom as well. Even though we are an enlightened species we still have those who either dont care about others or those who have no self control. How do you teach ag ...


Rape does not have to be part of humanity.  We might have urges, but we do not have to act on them.  It is possible for anyone to exercise self-control.
 
2013-03-18 10:17:57 AM

doglover: ginandbacon: Only 36 percent of rapes, 34 percent of attempted rapes, and 26 percent of sexual assaults were reported.

If they weren't reported, how do they know about them?

Also, you're making a mistake buying into the PR of a "justice" system. We do not a justice system. We have a legal system, and honestly it's been my experience you're right not to trust it. I've rarely seen it do anything but harm.

That said, it's what we do have and occasionally that harm falls on the right targets. If you can prove you're raped you're not gonna find a more helpful collection of harmers to do your dirty work for you than the police. Rapists are the favorite target of EVERY branch of law enforcement. They hates 'em more than normal people.


I have had my finger hovering over the Ignore button after many of your posts. But mainly you seem to me to be ignorant rather than malicious.

The NIJ estimates unreported crime in the following way, and any errors will be fairly constant accross all estimates:

The Nation's Two Crime Measures

BJS's National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS)- reported and unreported crime from the victim's perspective.FBI's Uniform Crime Reports (UCR) - crimes reported by law enforcementLike many other indicators used to assess conditions in the United States, these two indicators of crime complement each other to produce a more comprehensive portrait of the Nation's crime problem.

Some of the differences between UCR and NCVS are -


UCRNCVSGeographic coverageNational & State estimates, local agency reportsNational estimatesCollection methodReports by law enforcement to the FBI on a monthly basisSurvey of as many as 77,200 households and 134,000 individuals age 12 or older.MeasuresIndex crimes* reported by law enforcementReported and unreported crime; details about the crimes, victims, and offenders
Many victims of sexual assault are treated horribly by LE and most of us know that. It is bad enough that I would have to think long and hard before reporting a rape. We also know what happens to the victims of sex crimes who do report. They are often ostracized if not worse for coming forward. Most of the time, they know their attacker and will likely be attacked again by others in their social circle. Often, they are attacked by their own families.

I find your attitude quite callous and frankly to be the sort of misinformation and victim blaming that is exactly part of what allows rape culture to continue.

Again, I do not question your sincerity or care about this issue, but I have been offended by your remarks and unwillingness to educate yourself. You might want to take a few days to read up on the issue and come back to future conversations with a slightly more nuanced and realistic view of the topic.
 
2013-03-18 10:18:07 AM

Popcorn Johnny: One of these two did distribute a nude picture of the girl, so the child porn charge is warranted.


Of all the charges, I would say this is actually the only one not deserved.  If you are 16 and take a picture of another 16 year old and pass it around you may be dumb and irresponsible, but you are not distributing child porn; you are distributing pictures of someone in your fellow age group.  There is a world of difference between that and some 50 year old seeding his stash of photos on TOR.
 
2013-03-18 10:18:19 AM

Genevieve Marie: cman: How does one teach others not to rape?

Well, for starters, we teach them to view other people as fully human. We don't teach young men that women are stupid, annoying, nags that only exist to be farked.

We also teach all young people a real idea of sexual consent. That sex is a healthy, positive thing as long as appropriate health precautions are taken and as long as both parties enthusiastically consent.


Last point rules out marital sex, I see :)
 
2013-03-18 10:20:10 AM
doglover:
Step One: REPORT IT.
Step Two: REPORT IT.
Step Three: REPORT IT.


Step Zero:  Establish a credible justice system where people who report sexual assaults are treated with due respect and dignity, instead of often being subjected to further psychological trauma.
 
2013-03-18 10:20:48 AM
So, you are all forgetting the real victims in this case...CNN and their troop of empathetic talking heads who are now being told that they were wrong.
 
2013-03-18 10:21:22 AM

poot_rootbeer: Wolf_Blitzer: Prison education and work placement programs have been shown to drive down repeat offenses; I doubt the same can be said for giving inmates fridges and TVs.

I doubt it too, but if it were to be empirically proven to make a difference, I wouldn't deny inmates those devices just because it could subjectively feel like "coddling" them.

A prisoner who is expected to prepare their own food and who is keeping up with culture might be easier to re-integrate into society than one who is issued three trays of slop per day and has a library of third-hand paperbacks for entertainment.


Agreed.
 
2013-03-18 10:22:02 AM

BarkingUnicorn: wickedragon: jso2897: wickedragon: jso2897: Yogimus: stuffstuffstuff

Have you read about Halden prison? Worth a look if you have ten minutes to spare.

I don't have any time to spare on "reading assignments" - if you've something to say, and citation to support it, I'll be happy to listen.

It's a prison that treats the inmates as people, no matter what they've done to deserve prison time. They get a modicrum of freedom, education and worthwhile jobs all the while being given trust and respect from the prison staff.
Even though they take in murderes and rapists violence is unheard of inside the prison walls and recidivism rates seems very low (although the prison is to new to give any sort of accurate reading of such yet). Inmates leave the prison as better people than they were when they went in. Seems like a good thing.

Halden holds 252 Norwegian prisoners at a cost of about $183,000 per inmate per year.  Average cost of federal, state, and local U. S. inmates was about $30,600 each per year in 2007; $74 billion total.  If all of those inmates were in  Halden, it would have cost over $441 billion per year.

Plus the cost of building 10,000 Haldens:  $22.5 billion up front.

"A cell includes amenities such as a television, a refrigerator, unbarred vertical windows that let in more light, and designer furniture. Prisoners share kitchens and living rooms every 10-12 cells, jogging trails, and a sound studio."

So no, it would not be a good thing.


You're thinking short term. If the U.S. managed to get a recidivism rate equal to the Norwegian prison system the number of prisoners would drop by at least 25% (Recidivism being 20% in Norway and 60% in the U.S) as the first cycle of inmates leaves prison.
This would also mean that crime drops by 25%.
"The Aggregate Burden of Crime" published in 1999 in Journal of Law and Economic pegged the annual cost of crime at 1.7 Trillion dollars, meaning that a 25% drop would save 425 billion dollars annually, before adjusting from 15 years of inflation.
That means that you save every penny by building and running the 10000 Haldens, AND fewer people get their loved ones taken away, get raped or has their car stolen.

I think that would be nice.
 
2013-03-18 10:22:07 AM
While I understand and absolutely agree with the intent, "teaching men to stop raping" sounds like it will be as effective as the "war on drugs".

Our track record isn't very good. Five thousand years of "enlighten" though, and we still haven't figured out how to teach people how to stop stealing, murdering, cheating, abusing, slandering, lying, etc. etc. Why on earth would anyone think that things will be different in this situation?
 
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