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(Yahoo)   Justice delivered: two members of the high school football team that is the pride of Steubenville were found guilty of raping a drunken 16-year-old girl   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 772
    More: News, Ohio, found guilty, football team  
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12536 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Mar 2013 at 11:24 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-18 12:35:30 AM

OgreMagi: Kimothy: Sadly, that's a very "normal" response. to rape. Some victims become sexually provocative or react by having increased sexual relations. Some victims never want to have sex again. Some fall in the middle and can have sex with someone they trust. It really varies. I was a rape counselor in college and I've seen post-rape sexual behavior fall throughout that entire spectrum.

I dated a girl who had been rapped when she was 12, though I did not know about her situation until well after we stopped dating.  In the middle of sex (not our first time), she suddenly screamed, "get the fark away from me" and started pushing me away in a panic.  Something I had done, probably something perfectly innocent like my breath on her ear, had set off her PTSD.  Perhaps if I had known about her past I might have been more understand, but out of ignorance I broke up with her.


"Never lose your ignorance; you can't replace it."  Andy Capp.
 
2013-03-18 12:37:21 AM

Trixie212: ciberido: Trixie212: One last time, it's possible to believe the victim shares in some personal responsibility without being a "rape apologist".

No, no it really isn't.


Trixie212:  /they both agree with me on this subject
//not that you care

Well, you got me there.

So I'll ask you what you asked me earlier. Why are you commenting if you don't care?


I care about the subject.  I don't care whether or not your daughters agree with you.  Nor do I care whether or not you yourself were raped.  I'm sorry, but it's not relevant.
 
2013-03-18 12:42:54 AM

Silly Jesus: give me doughnuts: Trixie212: The boys will pay the consequences for this all the rest of their days. Rightly so? Maybe. I just think she shares in the responsibility of what happened to her.

No, she doesn't. It's kind of disgusting that you, or anyone else, thinks that way.

Can a victim of any crime ever share in the blame?  Or does that only apply to rape?


There are plenty of people who are victims of crime, in specific situations,  who would not be victims if they had a modicum of adequate decision making skills.  People who fall for obvious scams or get assaulted for talking egregious smack come to mind. Should we tell these people to not be such farking dumbasses, or is it victim blaming?
 
2013-03-18 12:46:10 AM

EnglishMan: I do love people like you who get all angry over someone suggesting that someone might be even slightly responsible for what happens to them and yet stuff like "Enjoy getting raped in prison, scumbags." (in the second post in this very thread) just goes on unchallenged. I guess you can't tell people on tumblr about how much of a "Feminist" you are if you say something about that though.


I've said in other Fark threads that I don't condone punishing convicted rapists with anything other than prison time.  I don't advocate rape, torture, etc. of anyone.  I've also said in other Fark threads that I abhor prison conditions in American prisons, including but not limited to prisoners getting raped.  If you care enough about my opinions on the topic, feel free to search Fark archives and find posts from me stating such things.  Then feel free to come back and admit you misjudged me.

But I doubt you care enough, and I REALLY doubt you have the integrity to come back to this thread and admit you were wrong.  And frankly, I don't really care that much about your opinion of me to worry too much about it.
 
2013-03-18 01:05:03 AM

demonfaerie: ...I have no disrespect for your view point as well. However, I really dislike people trying to put some blame on the victim in these type of situations, because people have no idea what the victim is going through because of it. Just because she isn't going to jail doesn't mean she is not feeling any sort of consequence for the situation. Just because a teen did a stupid thing doesn't mean she deserve an action like being raped, or anyone doing anything stupid for that matter deserves to be raped. What they did to her, and the aftermath of that has probably scarred herself mentally so bad, she is going to need a lot of therapy to get back to a normal functioning person. Telling a victim that they are partially to blame or all of to blame based on a choice she did whether it was dressing the way she did, or act, or whatever doesn't mean she deserved it. People telling her she did probably will make her feel worse off, and more messed up. I know people who have been sexually assaulted, and I have as too. You feel you are to blame, and you hide in yourself hating yourself not doing something more. You already blaming yourself for what was done to you, and having other people telling you are correct for feeling that way makes it worse. You don't want to try to better yourself, and learn from your mistakes. You wish you could go escape in a hole, and die.


Yup. And all the therapy in the world (well, as much therapy as one can afford) won't erase the memory or the pain. It will be there for the rest of your life. You learn to live with what happened, as best as you can.

For some of us, neither alcohol nor drugs were involved. Date rape can happen to any woman.

/almost 31 years
 
2013-03-18 01:09:15 AM

ciberido: BarkingUnicorn:

It's not a question of knowing what rape is.  It's a question of knowing when it occurs.


It you talk about "kids who got some drunken, consensual pussy" as if such a thing were a possible explanation of what happened in this case, then you don't know what rape is.


Oh, I firmly believe that rape, and more, occurred in this case.  The perps are getting exactly what they deserve (juvie time is a negligible part of it).  I hope that others do, too, from the non-participant witnesses to the so-called leaders of Steubenville.  If the populace should be scattered and the town burnt to the ground, I would be fully satisfied.

And if there are reasonable steps the victim can take to reduce her risk of getting raped again, she should take them.  I'm sure she'll work through that in therapy, where no clueless layperson will tell her it isn't necessary.

We had another epic thread about domestic violence a few weeks ago.  People claimed that DV counselors eschew helping victims make better decisions in the future.  I found several DV counseling sites whose testimonials included some to the effect of, "They helped me make better decisions about my relationships."  Since all testimonials were selected and published by the counseling organizations, I assume the organizations consider improvements in decision-making to be important benefits of their programs and even sources of pride in their work.
 
2013-03-18 01:11:00 AM

ciberido: Trixie212: ciberido: Trixie212: One last time, it's possible to believe the victim shares in some personal responsibility without being a "rape apologist".

No, no it really isn't.


Trixie212:  /they both agree with me on this subject
//not that you care

Well, you got me there.

So I'll ask you what you asked me earlier. Why are you commenting if you don't care?

I care about the subject.  I don't care whether or not your daughters agree with you.  Nor do I care whether or not you yourself were raped.  I'm sorry, but it's not relevant.


Shiat, and you think others are sociopaths!
 
2013-03-18 01:19:57 AM

reimanr06: Silly Jesus: give me doughnuts: Trixie212: The boys will pay the consequences for this all the rest of their days. Rightly so? Maybe. I just think she shares in the responsibility of what happened to her.

No, she doesn't. It's kind of disgusting that you, or anyone else, thinks that way.

Can a victim of any crime ever share in the blame?  Or does that only apply to rape?

There are plenty of people who are victims of crime, in specific situations,  who would not be victims if they had a modicum of adequate decision making skills.  People who fall for obvious scams or get assaulted for talking egregious smack come to mind. Should we tell these people to not be such farking dumbasses, or is it victim blaming?


How about we keep the criminal and civil justice systems separate?  The former is concerned with whether a law was broken and punishing whoever did it.  The latter gets into apportioning liability.

Once upon a time, rape cases freely mixed criminal and civil jurisprudence.  The result was appalling, and legal professionals are not supposed to do that anymore.  It is even more appalling when laypersons do it in the court of public opinion, which lacks all juris and most prudence.
 
2013-03-18 02:29:39 AM

BarkingUnicorn: reimanr06: Silly Jesus: give me doughnuts: Trixie212: The boys will pay the consequences for this all the rest of their days. Rightly so? Maybe. I just think she shares in the responsibility of what happened to her.

No, she doesn't. It's kind of disgusting that you, or anyone else, thinks that way.

Can a victim of any crime ever share in the blame?  Or does that only apply to rape?

There are plenty of people who are victims of crime, in specific situations,  who would not be victims if they had a modicum of adequate decision making skills.  People who fall for obvious scams or get assaulted for talking egregious smack come to mind. Should we tell these people to not be such farking dumbasses, or is it victim blaming?

How about we keep the criminal and civil justice systems separate?  The former is concerned with whether a law was broken and punishing whoever did it.  The latter gets into apportioning liability.

Once upon a time, rape cases freely mixed criminal and civil jurisprudence.  The result was appalling, and legal professionals are not supposed to do that anymore.  It is even more appalling when laypersons do it in the court of public opinion, which lacks all juris and most prudence.


I mean sure, but then we'd have to pack up this thread and then go to bed. All of the key matters of criminal justice have already been resolved. I guess we could discuss the relatively light sentence those guys got, or whether or not more people should have been charged.

This whole thread has been about sociopaths and rape apologists making the argument that its a bad idea to make yourself an easy mark for predators, and our more civilized colleagues acknowledging that while the argument is rationally sound, expressing that argument makes one a bad person. While is is a very interesting perspective on how we as humans cope with the terrible things that happen to us and to others, it's hardly a criminal law journal. 

/That last barb about the appalling laypeople was exceptionally sharp yet tactfully understated. Very well done
 
2013-03-18 02:36:18 AM

reimanr06: I mean sure, but then we'd have to pack up this thread and then go to bed. All of the key matters of criminal justice have already been resolved. I guess we could discuss the relatively light sentence those guys got, or whether or not more people should have been charged.

This whole thread has been about sociopaths and rape apologists making the argument that its a bad idea to make yourself an easy mark for predators, and our more civilized colleagues acknowledging that while the argument is rationally sound, expressing that argument makes one a bad person. While is is a very interesting perspective on how we as humans cope with the terrible things that happen to us and to others, it's hardly a criminal law journal.

/That last barb about the appalling laypeople was exceptionally sharp yet tactfully understated. Very well done


Aw, thanks.  I am impressed by yours, too!  Everyone is gigged equally.
 
2013-03-18 03:11:28 AM

ELKAY: But I hardly think being ganged raped is a natural consequence of passing out


Around young men it is.  I'm sorry, but it's true.  You get a bunch of drunk young, stupid, entitled, tribalistic men together and stupid shiat will happen.  Vulnerable young girl getting pass-out drunk at a party with footballers?  Getting raped in that situation is no surprise.  I'd be more surprised if she hadn't been sexually assaulted in some way.  That doesn't make it her fault, it was simply an easily foreseeable consequence of her actions.

It would be super awesome to live in a world where you can pass out -- naked even -- and be safe and secure in person.  We do not live in that fantasy utopia and we never will.

People in general need to learn to approach alcohol with caution.  We've decided alcohol is a fun drug with no real consequences to use, and it's a great idea to completely lose control of your faculties in the presence of people who you can't trust to be looking out for your interests.  Fark celebrates the abuse of alcohol as if it's a virtue.

99% of the time you will get away with the bad judgement of getting really drunk with no harm, no foul.

The 1% of the time you don't get away with it is going to be a real biatch, whether it's getting sexually assaulted, a serious head injury, or killing someone in a fight, a car accident, choking to death on your own vomit, cheating on your partner... it will be bad.  And it could have been prevented if you chose not to drink yourself into a state where you were not in control of your actions, and not able to make rational decisions for yourself.  This applies to men and women of any age in any situation.

So because of abuse of alcohol in a culture that encourages it, this girl got raped when she probably otherwise would not have been, and these guys who maybe (maybe...) would not have done this sober have committed an awful crime and ruined their own lives as well.  Yay booze!  It's harmless fun!
 
2013-03-18 03:28:46 AM

ciberido: You're mocking him, of course, but the ironic thing is, you really SHOULD take such criticism from Theaetetus seriously.  It's a sad example of the  Dunning-Kruger effect: whatever it is that makes you pro-rape also makes you incapable of perceiving yourself as pro-rape or of really understanding his point.


While you are flinging the phrase "pro-rape" around at anyone who disagrees with you, could you perhaps point me to a single post by anyone in this thread in which they say that rape is a good thing?
 
2013-03-18 03:31:15 AM

ZeroCorpse: What the media doesn't talk about, but KnightSec and Anonymous does, is that these "rape crew" guys bragged about drugging and raping girls


Teenage boys are, of course, famed for being scrupulously honest when they make claims about sexual and alcohol-related behaviour.
 
2013-03-18 03:46:23 AM
 
2013-03-18 06:48:46 AM
Meh, that chick hung out with football players, she knew what she was getting into.
 
2013-03-18 07:31:30 AM

ialdabaoth: These are 16 year old boys who have been told all their life that they can get away with whatever they want as long as they're strong enough to win.

They may be piece of trash bastards, but I don't think your venom is appropriately or effectively projected if you're pointing it at them.


This is a line of thinking I really, really, really don't get.  Unless you have literally been locked in a room your whole life, and have been let out only to repeat the creed "having sex with a passed out girl is okay" over and over again, everyone knows that taking advantage of a passed out girl is wrong.  These kids knew what they were doing was wrong.  They may have been raised to think they could get away with it, but they knew full well it was wrong.  They get no sympathy from me, nor should they from any decent human being.
 
2013-03-18 07:52:21 AM
ChuDogg: [unrepeatable threats]

Oh, that sucks. I'm gonna miss ChuDogg; he was delightful when he wasn't crossing the line.
 
2013-03-18 12:31:49 PM

JesusJuice: Musikslayer: Popcorn Johnny:  drunken, consensual

Oxymoron, dumbass.

Having sex with a drunk woman is not necessarily rape. Being intoxicated doesn't make you incapable of giving consent unless you're actually passed out or incoherent, as seems to be the case here.

Why is it that if a man and woman, both equally drunk, agree to have sex, you believe only the man is guilty of rape? I've never understood how people can claim to be feminists/egalitarians and yet not see how obviously degrading this double standard is for women. To say that intoxicated women are unable to give consent but intoxicated men are just perpetuates the stereotype that women are weak, need protection, and lack autonomy.

I used to work in law enforcement and I can tell you that we frequently had to explain to women that being pestered into having sex or having sex when you're drunk and regretting it the next day is NOT rape. The only time someone is too inebriated to give consent is when they're literally too inebriated to give consent, as in unable to express consent verbally or otherwise. A woman can be blackout drunk, stumbling and falling over, and still consent to sex as long as she's coherent enough to express that consent. I don't know why this is so difficult for people to understand.

I remember once where we actually apprehended a group of marines for supposedly "raping" some dependent spouse while her service-member was deployed. One of them had a cell phone video depicting her engaged in obviously consensual sex with this group of marines. I won't go into too much detail, but suffice to say it's hard to scream "Give it to me devil dogs!" with a mouthful of cock. Showing her the video, explaining to her that she was a lying whore, and charging her for the false report were deeply satisfying.


irrelevant, whaaargarbling story, bro.
 
2013-03-18 12:57:14 PM

CalvinMorallis: ialdabaoth: These are 16 year old boys who have been told all their life that they can get away with whatever they want as long as they're strong enough to win.

They may be piece of trash bastards, but I don't think your venom is appropriately or effectively projected if you're pointing it at them.

This is a line of thinking I really, really, really don't get.  Unless you have literally been locked in a room your whole life, and have been let out only to repeat the creed "having sex with a passed out girl is okay" over and over again, everyone knows that taking advantage of a passed out girl is wrong.  These kids knew what they were doing was wrong.  They may have been raised to think they could get away with it, but they knew full well it was wrong.  They get no sympathy from me, nor should they from any decent human being.


The thing is, "decent human beings" are surprisingly rare, because they take a lot more effort than you imagine to actually cultivate. As I said, I definitely think these kids are dangerous and need to be isolated from society, monitored, evaluated, and repaired if possible. But I don't think they deserve prison rape or any other form of vengeance suggested here or on other fora. Save that level of vengeance for the adults that should have protected the victim, and tried to cover the whole thing up instead.
 
2013-03-18 05:01:02 PM

ialdabaoth: These are 16 year old boys who have been told all their life that they can get away with whatever they want as long as they're strong enough to win.

They may be piece of trash bastards, but I don't think your venom is appropriately or effectively projected if you're pointing it at them.

Also, wishing for 16 and 17 year olds to get prison-raped seems sketchy. No one deserves to be raped. People who are morally damaged deserve to be repaired, or humanely contained if they cannot be repaired. But wishing traumatic violence and powerlessness on a sapient being does not seem to be the mark of a good person.


Passing judgment on a person merely making an observation isn't the mark of a good person either, yet you seem to have a handle on that one. I didn't wish ill on anyone. I never said: "I hope they're the guest of honor in a rape party" or anything absurd like that. I simply stated a matter-of-fact that rapists aren't the most popular criminal. They won't have an easy time, and they'll learn the hard way that rape isn't a grand idea. You're right about no one deserving that to happen to them, but if anyone does it's a rapist. If anything a person that tries to rationalize and defend these types of people are the "sketchy" ones. That's between you and whatever God you believe in, and if none then your conscious.
 
2013-03-18 05:40:32 PM

Trixie212: . I was where I shouldn't have been with people I shouldn't have been with.


Trixie212: ciberido: Trixie212: One last time, it's possible to believe the victim shares in some personal responsibility without being a "rape apologist".


This, and only this, is the reason you're receiving the feedback you are. There are certain circumstances where normally unacceptable consequences become acceptable. Normally, getting the ever loving shiat kicked out of you is not an acceptable consequence of attending a social event. In the instance where said event is a free-style martial arts exhibition where you compete, it  is an acceptable not entirely unexpected consequence.

There is no circumstance, venue, or chain of events that lead to rape being an acceptable circumstance of your choices or behavior. Rape, by definition, is not consensual. Therefore you do not bear responsibility of any kind for that being the outcome. If you purposefully provoke someone to violence, you bear some of the responsibility for being attacked. You started it. There is no such thing as starting rape. Walking naked and drunk into a frat house and popping a handful of ambien, while not particularly advisable or especially intelligent, does not mean that you share any responsibility if you are raped, because it does not suddenly become in any way acceptable.

It should be noted that you can note the fact that a person did not take common sense precaution for their safety, while at the same time acknowledging that they have no fault, and bear no liability for what happens.
 
2013-03-18 07:11:43 PM

precious_crotchflake: JesusJuice: Musikslayer: Popcorn Johnny:  drunken, consensual

Oxymoron, dumbass.

Having sex with a drunk woman is not necessarily rape. Being intoxicated doesn't make you incapable of giving consent unless you're actually passed out or incoherent, as seems to be the case here.

Why is it that if a man and woman, both equally drunk, agree to have sex, you believe only the man is guilty of rape? I've never understood how people can claim to be feminists/egalitarians and yet not see how obviously degrading this double standard is for women. To say that intoxicated women are unable to give consent but intoxicated men are just perpetuates the stereotype that women are weak, need protection, and lack autonomy.

I used to work in law enforcement and I can tell you that we frequently had to explain to women that being pestered into having sex or having sex when you're drunk and regretting it the next day is NOT rape. The only time someone is too inebriated to give consent is when they're literally too inebriated to give consent, as in unable to express consent verbally or otherwise. A woman can be blackout drunk, stumbling and falling over, and still consent to sex as long as she's coherent enough to express that consent. I don't know why this is so difficult for people to understand.

I remember once where we actually apprehended a group of marines for supposedly "raping" some dependent spouse while her service-member was deployed. One of them had a cell phone video depicting her engaged in obviously consensual sex with this group of marines. I won't go into too much detail, but suffice to say it's hard to scream "Give it to me devil dogs!" with a mouthful of cock. Showing her the video, explaining to her that she was a lying whore, and charging her for the false report were deeply satisfying.

irrelevant, whaaargarbling story, bro.


If you think so, then don't read it.
 
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