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(Yahoo)   Justice delivered: two members of the high school football team that is the pride of Steubenville were found guilty of raping a drunken 16-year-old girl   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 772
    More: News, Ohio, found guilty, football team  
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12539 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Mar 2013 at 11:24 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-17 05:37:35 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: vygramul: It shouldn't take this level of detail.

It shouldn't? I guess in your world, we should believe a woman whenever she claims she was raped, right? After all, there's never been a case of a woman making up fake rape allegations, right?


It SHOULD take that level of detail in court.

It SHOULDN'T to make you stop white-knighting rapists.
 
2013-03-17 05:37:38 PM  
How long until Dr. Phil or Oprah pay this girl to come on their show and we get to see her? Won't be long before book deals, movie deals, etc. I'm sure.
 
2013-03-17 05:37:56 PM  

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: hasty ambush: Given the percentage of men being wrongly accused of rape (Yes maybe a rape did occur but the wrong person is accused) I treat all rape allegations with a high degree of of skepticism.

You found a 25% failure rate and some ancedotes to back up your misogyny. Congratulations.


If by anecdotes you mean FBI DNA testing then yes. Or did skip over that part?
 
2013-03-17 05:39:15 PM  

ciberido: Popcorn Johnny: How does subby know that justice was served, was he an eyewitness to the events? Fact is innocent people are found guilty and vice versa all the time. Nobody here knows if they're rapists or just kids who got some drunken, consensual pussy.

Everyone knows they're rapists except people who are sick, twisted farks or members of their family.  Which are you?

Seriously, if you can't figure our what rape is, you would be well-served to never, ever have sex with anybody.


It's not a question of knowing what rape is.  It's a question of knowing when it occurs.
 
2013-03-17 05:39:43 PM  

telaran: Dragonflew: telaran: BSABSVR: Trixie212: Both of my daughters are wonderful, responsible, self-reliant women and I'm very proud of both of them. One served in our military and is now in nursing school and the other is raising a wonderful family.

They are this way in spite of their mother, not because of their mother.

What a horrible thing to say to someone. *plonk*

Did you start reading this thread on page 12??

I'm not sure what you think makes a comment like BSABSVR's okay under any circumstance short of "I kept my children out of school and didn't feed them whenever they displeased me.  I tried to teach them to be horrible, monstrous women that would have horrible lives" on the condition that it is not meant as mockery. It's just not something one says based on a few internet comments, and I'm saying that haven been taken aback by Trixie212's comment that she would have held her daughters "just as responsible."

Trixie212 articulated a position that I disagree with (though I don't think she meant it exactly as it came out. But, you know, giving people the benefit of the doubt isn't something that happens on the internet, I guess). BSABSVR, on the other hand, decided to throw what I consider to be a pretty horrible insult at someone and is routinely a Morality Troll. I know it's all the rage to slag people with personal insults while pretending to be righteous, but really? Fark that. It's a stupid game that isn't worth reading.


Thank you. I really didn't mean things quite the way they came out and was speaking more from defensive anger after a little while than anything else.

And FWIW, even though I've tried to read up on this story over the last few days, I'd not heard about the "rape crew" until this thread had been going for a while.
 
2013-03-17 05:41:05 PM  

Glendale: Popcorn Johnny: How does subby know that justice was served, was he an eyewitness to the events? Fact is innocent people are found guilty and vice versa all the time. Nobody here knows if they're rapists or just kids who got some drunken, consensual pussy.

I don't think it matters because the drunkenness automatically makes it non-consensual by law, or something.


And that automatically includes her fighting off a female friend who tried to get her out of there?  She physically fought another human being in order to stay there.

But it's rape because omigod mom's gonna kill me and I'm embarassed the next day.  What the fk ever.

Yet again, females have NO personal responsibility. Ever.
 
2013-03-17 05:41:06 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: vygramul: It shouldn't take this level of detail.

It shouldn't? I guess in your world, we should believe a woman whenever she claims she was raped, right? After all, there's never been a case of a woman making up fake rape allegations, right?


Just because there have been some cases of women claiming they were raped, but they really weren't doesn't negate that there are 100 times more women in the world that actually are raped. And yes we should somewhat believe when a woman says she was raped, but at the same time there has to be an investigation of it to prove she is right. However, with people like you it is harder for women to bring up these allegations, because of your tone of putting blame on the victim. Just, because someone does a stupid behavior doesn't mean they should get hurt or raped for it. It can take years for a woman to get over being abused or raped, so putting this partial blame on the victim just makes it worse. It doesn't help or solve anything.
 
2013-03-17 05:45:26 PM  
I can see the two defendants are darkies. Judging from the outrage I can only assume the girl is white.

It's not like they kidnapped her from the church rectory and savagely pounded her with their penises under the statue of Baby Jesus or something. She'd been doing her own bit of sexting and partying that night in the run up to the assault, or foreplay, depending on who you believe.

And at what point does the state recognize being under the influence as culpability or excuse? If you're drinking and driving, fark you, no excuse. If, on the other hand, your crazy and need meds to be competent for trial they forcibly medicate you long enough to give you a death sentence, or perhaps some truth serum to get you to say what they want.

She didn't even know anything was wrong until her friends started calling her a slut, which, for all we know she is. I mean, you don't go out drinking with the guys from the football team because your some kind of church missionary. Oh, but she doesn't remember doing all those slutty things? Well, that's different. Now she's the symbol of virgin purity. Lets lynch someone!

It was freaking statutory rape at worst - sloppy, drunken prepubescent groping at best.  Her vagina is materially unaffected and her mental state is, arguably, unchanged. Meanwhile, the two guys will be sex offenders for the rest of their lives. They'll have to register at the police department every year or after moving. They can't live just about anywhere without breaking a law or pissing off a whole group of people who will become vigilantes as soon as they find out. They sure won't ever be able to get a decent job.

If I didn't know better I'd think being born with a white vagina was some kind of entitlement.
 
2013-03-17 05:48:42 PM  

ZeroCorpse: tirob: ZeroCorpse: THE DETAILS OF THIS CASE, FOR THE RAPE APOLOGIST ASSHOLES AND OTHERS TO DISCUSS:

KnightSec details pieced together:

...

All of this may be true, but the two offenders were not convicted of any of the acts alleged in your post, nor has anyone else been charged in connection with this crime.  Yet.


That's because the town's prosecutor was the parent of one of the "rape crew", the town police (including the sheriff) were business partners and pals with the coaches, and the coaches have been aware of this behavior and have supported it in the past.

There is no real justice here because the system in that town is totally corrupt.



The case was not prosecuted by the town prosecutor you named, but by a special prosecutor named Marianne Hemmeter.

http://www.timesreporter.com/newsnow/x1959355525/Prosecutor-Steubenv il le-rape-victim-didn-t-consent

It's true that neither of the offenders was charged with any of the more serious crimes enumerated in your earlier post.  I don't know why that was.
 
2013-03-17 05:48:51 PM  

Trixie212: BSABSVR: telaran: BSABSVR: Trixie212: Both of my daughters are wonderful, responsible, self-reliant women and I'm very proud of both of them. One served in our military and is now in nursing school and the other is raising a wonderful family.

They are this way in spite of their mother, not because of their mother.

What a horrible thing to say to someone. *plonk*

Way to white knight for a rape apologist.  You should be proud.  Yes it was horrible to say. By choice.  She is a horrible person.  Rape apologists are horrible.  Sorry that offends your delicate sensibilities.

I am not a rape apologist. And I am not a horrible person. But think what you want.


yes, you are a horrible person. People like you are the reason so many sexually abused young people are afraid to come forward, b/c they will be judged to be at fault.

The fact that if it was your daughter who was ganged raped you would tell her it was her fault for getting drunk is unconscionable.

You are absolutely a horrible person and people like you empower rapists while pressuring victims to remain silent.
 
2013-03-17 05:50:37 PM  

demonfaerie: Popcorn Johnny: vygramul: It shouldn't take this level of detail.

It shouldn't? I guess in your world, we should believe a woman whenever she claims she was raped, right? After all, there's never been a case of a woman making up fake rape allegations, right?

Just because there have been some cases of women claiming they were raped, but they really weren't doesn't negate that there are 100 times more women in the world that actually are raped. And yes we should somewhat believe when a woman says she was raped, but at the same time there has to be an investigation of it to prove she is right. However, with people like you it is harder for women to bring up these allegations, because of your tone of putting blame on the victim. Just, because someone does a stupid behavior doesn't mean they should get hurt or raped for it. It can take years for a woman to get over being abused or raped, so putting this partial blame on the victim just makes it worse. It doesn't help or solve anything.


No, we should not "somewhat believe" every rape claim.  We should remain objective and impartial, and diligently investigate.  You know, like science.  You approve of science, don't you?

If your only concern is that a woman "gets over it," then I understand why you feel that way.  I am also concerned about her risk of getting abused or raped again.  There are ways to teach without blaming so that people learn without guilt.
 
2013-03-17 05:52:38 PM  

Taylor Mental: I can see the two defendants are darkies. Judging from the outrage I can only assume the girl is white.

It's not like they kidnapped her from the church rectory and savagely pounded her with their penises under the statue of Baby Jesus or something. She'd been doing her own bit of sexting and partying that night in the run up to the assault, or foreplay, depending on who you believe.

And at what point does the state recognize being under the influence as culpability or excuse? If you're drinking and driving, fark you, no excuse. If, on the other hand, your crazy and need meds to be competent for trial they forcibly medicate you long enough to give you a death sentence, or perhaps some truth serum to get you to say what they want.

She didn't even know anything was wrong until her friends started calling her a slut, which, for all we know she is. I mean, you don't go out drinking with the guys from the football team because your some kind of church missionary. Oh, but she doesn't remember doing all those slutty things? Well, that's different. Now she's the symbol of virgin purity. Lets lynch someone!

It was freaking statutory rape at worst - sloppy, drunken prepubescent groping at best.  Her vagina is materially unaffected and her mental state is, arguably, unchanged. Meanwhile, the two guys will be sex offenders for the rest of their lives. They'll have to register at the police department every year or after moving. They can't live just about anywhere without breaking a law or pissing off a whole group of people who will become vigilantes as soon as they find out. They sure won't ever be able to get a decent job.

If I didn't know better I'd think being born with a white vagina was some kind of entitlement.


0/10...too heavy on the Rush Limbaugh rhetoric
 
2013-03-17 05:52:40 PM  

Taylor Mental: I can see the two defendants are darkies. Judging from the outrage I can only assume the girl is white.

It's not like they kidnapped her from the church rectory and savagely pounded her with their penises under the statue of Baby Jesus or something. She'd been doing her own bit of sexting and partying that night in the run up to the assault, or foreplay, depending on who you believe.

And at what point does the state recognize being under the influence as culpability or excuse? If you're drinking and driving, fark you, no excuse. If, on the other hand, your crazy and need meds to be competent for trial they forcibly medicate you long enough to give you a death sentence, or perhaps some truth serum to get you to say what they want.

She didn't even know anything was wrong until her friends started calling her a slut, which, for all we know she is. I mean, you don't go out drinking with the guys from the football team because your some kind of church missionary. Oh, but she doesn't remember doing all those slutty things? Well, that's different. Now she's the symbol of virgin purity. Lets lynch someone!

It was freaking statutory rape at worst - sloppy, drunken prepubescent groping at best.  Her vagina is materially unaffected and her mental state is, arguably, unchanged. Meanwhile, the two guys will be sex offenders for the rest of their lives. They'll have to register at the police department every year or after moving. They can't live just about anywhere without breaking a law or pissing off a whole group of people who will become vigilantes as soon as they find out. They sure won't ever be able to get a decent job.

If I didn't know better I'd think being born with a white vagina was some kind of entitlement.


Why wait till a girl is raped to blame her for drinking. Why not ban women from askin' fer it altogether. We could ban women from drinking, from showing any skin, including the face, and from being in the presence of another male unescorted.
 
2013-03-17 05:53:54 PM  

Taylor Mental: (series of distortions and untruths)


I'd suggest you read up on the facts of the case, as well as the relevant law.  Very little of what you write is accurate.
 
2013-03-17 05:54:30 PM  

chocolate covered poop: Taylor Mental: I can see the two defendants are darkies. Judging from the outrage I can only assume the girl is white.

It's not like they kidnapped her from the church rectory and savagely pounded her with their penises under the statue of Baby Jesus or something. She'd been doing her own bit of sexting and partying that night in the run up to the assault, or foreplay, depending on who you believe.

And at what point does the state recognize being under the influence as culpability or excuse? If you're drinking and driving, fark you, no excuse. If, on the other hand, your crazy and need meds to be competent for trial they forcibly medicate you long enough to give you a death sentence, or perhaps some truth serum to get you to say what they want.

She didn't even know anything was wrong until her friends started calling her a slut, which, for all we know she is. I mean, you don't go out drinking with the guys from the football team because your some kind of church missionary. Oh, but she doesn't remember doing all those slutty things? Well, that's different. Now she's the symbol of virgin purity. Lets lynch someone!

It was freaking statutory rape at worst - sloppy, drunken prepubescent groping at best.  Her vagina is materially unaffected and her mental state is, arguably, unchanged. Meanwhile, the two guys will be sex offenders for the rest of their lives. They'll have to register at the police department every year or after moving. They can't live just about anywhere without breaking a law or pissing off a whole group of people who will become vigilantes as soon as they find out. They sure won't ever be able to get a decent job.

If I didn't know better I'd think being born with a white vagina was some kind of entitlement.

0/10...too heavy on the Rush Limbaugh rhetoric


Near-total waste of words; hardly anyone reads past the word, "darkies."  Very inefficient trolling attempt.
 
2013-03-17 05:54:34 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Bontesla: What could possibly be more demeaning and disabling to women than, "There's nothing you could have done?"

Why would that be demeaning or disabling to know that you're not to blame for your rape? That sounds freeing.

Yeah, free to put yourself at risk again.  What would you think if you learned that this girl is still getting drunk with football players every weekend?

The message being sent to women is not, "There's nothing more you could have done," which certainly frees one from blame.  It's "It doesn't matter what you do."  I can easily imagine the latter words coming out of a rapist's mouth as he unbuckles his belt.


Dressing in a more conservative nature won't prevent rape. Drinking doesn't prevent rape. Why? Because drinking doesn't cause rape. Wearing risque clothing doesn't cause rape. Rapists cause rape. Some rapists prey on the vulnerable: those drinking alone, those in dimly lit parking garages alone, those in isolated alleys alone, etc.

Should we teach women and men tricks that lower the risk? Absolutely.

But pretending that dressing like a virgin and ordering non-alcoholic Shirley Temples will save you from rape is delusional. And by telling rape victims that they should have showed less legs and ordered less alcohol in order to avoid being rape is incorrect wrong and very cruel.
 
2013-03-17 05:55:28 PM  

ginandbacon: Oh goody. Another Fark rape apologist thread.


Before even reading a single comment, just looking at the fact that there were already 553 comments, I had a pretty good idea that we'd be dealing with superfund derp levels.

I am sure the usual rape apologists will be here adding their special touches.
 
2013-03-17 05:55:45 PM  

demonfaerie: Popcorn Johnny: vygramul: It shouldn't take this level of detail.

It shouldn't? I guess in your world, we should believe a woman whenever she claims she was raped, right? After all, there's never been a case of a woman making up fake rape allegations, right?

Just because there have been some cases of women claiming they were raped, but they really weren't doesn't negate that there are 100 times more women in the world that actually are raped. And yes we should somewhat believe when a woman says she was raped, but at the same time there has to be an investigation of it to prove she is right. However, with people like you it is harder for women to bring up these allegations, because of your tone of putting blame on the victim. Just, because someone does a stupid behavior doesn't mean they should get hurt or raped for it. It can take years for a woman to get over being abused or raped, so putting this partial blame on the victim just makes it worse. It doesn't help or solve anything.


Folks such as yourself see someone saying "it probably wasn't a good idea for her to get blackout drunk etc." and somehow turn that in to "I think it was excellent that she was raped."  I've never understood that.

If I went out for a jog through some drug infested slums in Harlem at night and got mugged it wouldn't really "be my fault", but then again, it kinda would.  See how that works?  Certain decisions that humans make have some somewhat predictable consequences.  The people who mugged me shouldn't be excused from their actions, but I was certainly a dumbass for putting myself into that position.
 
2013-03-17 05:57:57 PM  

Bontesla: BarkingUnicorn: Bontesla: What could possibly be more demeaning and disabling to women than, "There's nothing you could have done?"

Why would that be demeaning or disabling to know that you're not to blame for your rape? That sounds freeing.

Yeah, free to put yourself at risk again.  What would you think if you learned that this girl is still getting drunk with football players every weekend?

The message being sent to women is not, "There's nothing more you could have done," which certainly frees one from blame.  It's "It doesn't matter what you do."  I can easily imagine the latter words coming out of a rapist's mouth as he unbuckles his belt.

Dressing in a more conservative nature won't prevent rape. Drinking doesn't prevent rape. Why? Because drinking doesn't cause rape. Wearing risque clothing doesn't cause rape. Rapists cause rape. Some rapists prey on the vulnerable: those drinking alone, those in dimly lit parking garages alone, those in isolated alleys alone, etc.

Should we teach women and men tricks that lower the risk? Absolutely.

But pretending that dressing like a virgin and ordering non-alcoholic Shirley Temples will save you from rape is delusional. And by telling rape victims that they should have showed less legs and ordered less alcohol in order to avoid being rape is incorrect wrong and very cruel.


If I went out for a jog in the barrios of Rio and got mugged would it be cruel and incorrect to tell me that maybe I shouldn't have done that and to maybe not do it again?
 
2013-03-17 06:01:24 PM  

Bontesla: BarkingUnicorn: Bontesla: What could possibly be more demeaning and disabling to women than, "There's nothing you could have done?"

Why would that be demeaning or disabling to know that you're not to blame for your rape? That sounds freeing.

Yeah, free to put yourself at risk again.  What would you think if you learned that this girl is still getting drunk with football players every weekend?

The message being sent to women is not, "There's nothing more you could have done," which certainly frees one from blame.  It's "It doesn't matter what you do."  I can easily imagine the latter words coming out of a rapist's mouth as he unbuckles his belt.

Dressing in a more conservative nature won't prevent rape. Drinking doesn't prevent rape. Why? Because drinking doesn't cause rape. Wearing risque clothing doesn't cause rape. Rapists cause rape. Some rapists prey on the vulnerable: those drinking alone, those in dimly lit parking garages alone, those in isolated alleys alone, etc.

Should we teach women and men tricks that lower the risk? Absolutely.

But pretending that dressing like a virgin and ordering non-alcoholic Shirley Temples will save you from rape is delusional. And by telling rape victims that they should have showed less legs and ordered less alcohol in order to avoid being rape is incorrect wrong and very cruel.


I haven't suggested telling women what they should have done.  I suggest telling them what they can do.

So, staying in control of yourself doesn't help to prevent rape.  Not acting vulnerable doesn't.  Not sending out sexually enticing signals doesn't. You've listed a whole bunch of things that don't help to prevent rape.

What are these "tricks" for women of which you now speak?
 
2013-03-17 06:01:39 PM  

Trixie212: The boys will pay the consequences for this all the rest of their days. Rightly so? Maybe. I just think she shares in the responsibility of what happened to her.


No, she doesn't. It's kind of disgusting that you, or anyone else, thinks that way.
 
2013-03-17 06:02:41 PM  

Taylor Mental: I can see the two defendants are darkies. Judging from the outrage I can only assume the girl is white.

It's not like they kidnapped her from the church rectory and savagely pounded her with their penises under the statue of Baby Jesus or something. She'd been doing her own bit of sexting and partying that night in the run up to the assault, or foreplay, depending on who you believe.

And at what point does the state recognize being under the influence as culpability or excuse? If you're drinking and driving, fark you, no excuse. If, on the other hand, your crazy and need meds to be competent for trial they forcibly medicate you long enough to give you a death sentence, or perhaps some truth serum to get you to say what they want.

She didn't even know anything was wrong until her friends started calling her a slut, which, for all we know she is. I mean, you don't go out drinking with the guys from the football team because your some kind of church missionary. Oh, but she doesn't remember doing all those slutty things? Well, that's different. Now she's the symbol of virgin purity. Lets lynch someone!

It was freaking statutory rape at worst - sloppy, drunken prepubescent groping at best.  Her vagina is materially unaffected and her mental state is, arguably, unchanged. Meanwhile, the two guys will be sex offenders for the rest of their lives. They'll have to register at the police department every year or after moving. They can't live just about anywhere without breaking a law or pissing off a whole group of people who will become vigilantes as soon as they find out. They sure won't ever be able to get a decent job.

If I didn't know better I'd think being born with a white vagina was some kind of entitlement.


When you are completely wrong in the very first sentence of your statement, do you also assume people will keep reading?
 
2013-03-17 06:03:06 PM  

ExperianScaresCthulhu: Glendale: Popcorn Johnny: How does subby know that justice was served, was he an eyewitness to the events? Fact is innocent people are found guilty and vice versa all the time. Nobody here knows if they're rapists or just kids who got some drunken, consensual pussy.

I don't think it matters because the drunkenness automatically makes it non-consensual by law, or something.

And that automatically includes her fighting off a female friend who tried to get her out of there?  She physically fought another human being in order to stay there.

But it's rape because omigod mom's gonna kill me and I'm embarassed the next day.  What the fk ever.

Yet again, females have NO personal responsibility. Ever.


I can make stuff up and put it in bold too
 
2013-03-17 06:07:57 PM  

give me doughnuts: Trixie212: The boys will pay the consequences for this all the rest of their days. Rightly so? Maybe. I just think she shares in the responsibility of what happened to her.

No, she doesn't. It's kind of disgusting that you, or anyone else, thinks that way.


Can a victim of any crime ever share in the blame?  Or does that only apply to rape?
 
2013-03-17 06:12:23 PM  

captainmaxthedestroyer: Perhaps the underage retarded girl who got black-out drunk in an unsafe environment learned her lesson as well?


If the lesson was "there are asshats who will try to justify rape," yes, she probably did.
 
2013-03-17 06:13:12 PM  

Silly Jesus: give me doughnuts: Trixie212: The boys will pay the consequences for this all the rest of their days. Rightly so? Maybe. I just think she shares in the responsibility of what happened to her.

No, she doesn't. It's kind of disgusting that you, or anyone else, thinks that way.

Can a victim of any crime ever share in the blame?  Or does that only apply to rape?


Perhaps only something like fraud. Violent crimes like rape, assault and the like? No, not really
 
2013-03-17 06:13:44 PM  

give me doughnuts: Trixie212: The boys will pay the consequences for this all the rest of their days. Rightly so? Maybe. I just think she shares in the responsibility of what happened to her.

No, she doesn't. It's kind of disgusting that you, or anyone else, thinks that way.


With responsibility comes freedom, to reverse an old saying.  Freedom is the power to conduct one's own  life.  What's disgusting to me is depriving women of this power.
 
2013-03-17 06:14:41 PM  

Silly Jesus: demonfaerie: Popcorn Johnny: vygramul: It shouldn't take this level of detail.

It shouldn't? I guess in your world, we should believe a woman whenever she claims she was raped, right? After all, there's never been a case of a woman making up fake rape allegations, right?

Just because there have been some cases of women claiming they were raped, but they really weren't doesn't negate that there are 100 times more women in the world that actually are raped. And yes we should somewhat believe when a woman says she was raped, but at the same time there has to be an investigation of it to prove she is right. However, with people like you it is harder for women to bring up these allegations, because of your tone of putting blame on the victim. Just, because someone does a stupid behavior doesn't mean they should get hurt or raped for it. It can take years for a woman to get over being abused or raped, so putting this partial blame on the victim just makes it worse. It doesn't help or solve anything.

Folks such as yourself see someone saying "it probably wasn't a good idea for her to get blackout drunk etc." and somehow turn that in to "I think it was excellent that she was raped."  I've never understood that.

If I went out for a jog through some drug infested slums in Harlem at night and got mugged it wouldn't really "be my fault", but then again, it kinda would.  See how that works?  Certain decisions that humans make have some somewhat predictable consequences.  The people who mugged me shouldn't be excused from their actions, but I was certainly a dumbass for putting myself into that position.


No it wouldn't be your fault. That is a public area you have every right to be in, and if someone assaults you it is not your fault. shiat can happen everywhere, it even it places that are not "dangerous". Ok in your logic you put yourself as a dumbass, and then yes the girl did a dumbass thing, but that doesn't mean she should have partial blame to what happened to her. For the rest of her life she will think she did a dumbass thing, and will probably need to go to therapy for years for the damage that was done to her. She made one stupid mistake because she was a teenager and got super drunk, but that doesn't take away that it shouldn't of had been done to her, and make her less of a victim. Just because you go to a damn high school kid house party to pretty much to get drunk, you shouldn't have to worry about getting raped. You are with people you know, and peers for the most part, you don't think when your with them sober or drunk that they might try to hurt you.
 
2013-03-17 06:17:31 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: jso2897:

Why would we draw the line a rape? Why hold anyone criminally responsible for what they do to drunken people? If somebody is too drunk to stop me beating their ass and taking their wallet - don't blame me!
Lame.


[i1.ytimg.com image 480x360]

If you fail to conduct yourself properly around individuals who have the potential to do you harm then you have placed yourself at great risk.  Indeed alcohol and most other popular narcotics are looseners of social inhibitions.

Keep your head straight.

Of course this also occurred without incident or report over multiple parties where she repeated the behavior again, and again and again...  But that is inconvenient to the narrative right?


Psychopath or troll?  So hard to tell these days.
 
2013-03-17 06:17:35 PM  

give me doughnuts: Trixie212: The boys will pay the consequences for this all the rest of their days. Rightly so? Maybe. I just think she shares in the responsibility of what happened to her.

No, she doesn't. It's kind of disgusting that you, or anyone else, thinks that way.


This, and to respond to what Trexie said, she is going to be a damaged human being for awhile. She is seriously probably really messed up in the head right now for one doing a stupid thing that a lot of kids do, get drunk at a house party. Second, because people that she knew raped, violated, hurt her, and then humiliate her on the damn internet. Plus people who are suppose to help you through all this probably tried to cover up what happened.
 
2013-03-17 06:20:09 PM  

demonfaerie: give me doughnuts: Trixie212: The boys will pay the consequences for this all the rest of their days. Rightly so? Maybe. I just think she shares in the responsibility of what happened to her.

No, she doesn't. It's kind of disgusting that you, or anyone else, thinks that way.

This, and to respond to what Trexie said, she is going to be a damaged human being for awhile. She is seriously probably really messed up in the head right now for one doing a stupid thing that a lot of kids do, get drunk at a house party. Second, because people that she knew raped, violated, hurt her, and then humiliate her on the damn internet. Plus people who are suppose to help you through all this probably tried to cover up what happened.


Point taken.
 
2013-03-17 06:25:05 PM  

skwerl: I'm bothered that a couple 16 year old boys get drunk and have sex, then get convicted of rape and go to jail for it. The 16 year old girl they had sex with is the 'victim' and has society fawning over her. If all you people up on your high and mighty horses want the two boys on the sexual predator's list for life, then the girl also needs to be put on the list for life.


I'm bothered that you think it's ok for 16-year-old boys to rape people.

And if you think that thinking rape should be a crime is being on a "high and mighty horse" then you need counseling. Or electroshock treatment, or a lobotomy, or something.  Seriously, there's something deeply, deeply wrong with you.

And if you're just trolling, then there's STILL something deeply wrong with you.
 
2013-03-17 06:25:15 PM  

Silly Jesus: Can a victim of any crime ever share in the blame? Or does that only apply to rape?


There's "You got what you deserved for jogging through those neighborhoods, serves you right!", and then there's "There's a lot of robberies in those neighborhoods, it is very dangerous, you might want to job somewhere safer."


Some people see any engagement in risky activity as being partially responsible for the result. Other people see giving simple cautionary crime prevention advice as blaming the victim.
 
2013-03-17 06:31:07 PM  

Silly Jesus: If I went out for a jog in the barrios of Rio and got mugged would it be cruel and incorrect to tell me that maybe I shouldn't have done that and to maybe not do it again?


Sure. But if you were coerced into following someone else, drugged without your knowledge, and woke up mugged in the barrios of Rio, that would be a different situation.

She didn't get stupid-drunk or act irresponsibly. She was coerced into going to a party by a group of her ex-boyfriend's friends, and then drugged in the car on the way to the first locale. While unconscious she was raped MULTIPLE times by MULTIPLE guys, dragged from party to party to be raped again and again, photographed and recorded being sexually assaulted, carried down to a basement where a bunch of guys took turns raping her some more while she was still unconscious, carried out to a yard and pissed on, and then left there.

The police, coaches, prosecutor, and sheriff intentionally dragged ass and tried to cover this up. The guys tweeted about raping her. They made videos talking about raping her. They wrote tweets referring to raping her. They actually called themselves "the rape crew" in a non-ironic way.

So perhaps there's a bit of difference between you wandering in a dangerous neighborhood and a teenage girl being drugged, gang raped multiple times, peed on, and humiliated by people she trusted.
 
2013-03-17 06:32:28 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Bontesla: BarkingUnicorn: Bontesla: What could possibly be more demeaning and disabling to women than, "There's nothing you could have done?"

Why would that be demeaning or disabling to know that you're not to blame for your rape? That sounds freeing.

Yeah, free to put yourself at risk again.  What would you think if you learned that this girl is still getting drunk with football players every weekend?

The message being sent to women is not, "There's nothing more you could have done," which certainly frees one from blame.  It's "It doesn't matter what you do."  I can easily imagine the latter words coming out of a rapist's mouth as he unbuckles his belt.

Dressing in a more conservative nature won't prevent rape. Drinking doesn't prevent rape. Why? Because drinking doesn't cause rape. Wearing risque clothing doesn't cause rape. Rapists cause rape. Some rapists prey on the vulnerable: those drinking alone, those in dimly lit parking garages alone, those in isolated alleys alone, etc.

Should we teach women and men tricks that lower the risk? Absolutely.

But pretending that dressing like a virgin and ordering non-alcoholic Shirley Temples will save you from rape is delusional. And by telling rape victims that they should have showed less legs and ordered less alcohol in order to avoid being rape is incorrect wrong and very cruel.

I haven't suggested telling women what they should have done.  I suggest telling them what they can do.

So, staying in control of yourself doesn't help to prevent rape.  Not acting vulnerable doesn't.  Not sending out sexually enticing signals doesn't. You've listed a whole bunch of things that don't help to prevent rape.

What are these "tricks" for women of which you now speak?


Uhm. We've been discussing these tips/suggestions for awhile now.
Ffs. If you're not going to try then why should I?
 
2013-03-17 06:33:13 PM  

Lenny_da_Hog: Of course, when these same sorts of assholes terrorize and assault other boys in high school, we tell the other boys to "man up," because assault isn't a crime unless it's against a girl.


Who is this "we" you speak of, Kemosabe?
 
2013-03-17 06:34:12 PM  

Silly Jesus: demonfaerie: Popcorn Johnny: vygramul: It shouldn't take this level of detail.

It shouldn't? I guess in your world, we should believe a woman whenever she claims she was raped, right? After all, there's never been a case of a woman making up fake rape allegations, right?

Just because there have been some cases of women claiming they were raped, but they really weren't doesn't negate that there are 100 times more women in the world that actually are raped. And yes we should somewhat believe when a woman says she was raped, but at the same time there has to be an investigation of it to prove she is right. However, with people like you it is harder for women to bring up these allegations, because of your tone of putting blame on the victim. Just, because someone does a stupid behavior doesn't mean they should get hurt or raped for it. It can take years for a woman to get over being abused or raped, so putting this partial blame on the victim just makes it worse. It doesn't help or solve anything.

Folks such as yourself see someone saying "it probably wasn't a good idea for her to get blackout drunk etc." and somehow turn that in to "I think it was excellent that she was raped."  I've never understood that.

If I went out for a jog through some drug infested slums in Harlem at night and got mugged it wouldn't really "be my fault", but then again, it kinda would.  See how that works?  Certain decisions that humans make have some somewhat predictable consequences.  The people who mugged me shouldn't be excused from their actions, but I was certainly a dumbass for putting myself into that position.


The problem is you are trying to make these unfortunate events seem like they are random, and just bad luck.  This is not like being in the wrong place at the wrong time and getting attacked by a grizzly or walking into a hornets nest.  These are humans, who supposedly have free will, knowingly committing acts that are pretty universally accepted as being wrong, as being evil.  The notion that rape is wrong is very likely something that developed fairly quickly within human civilization.  (I realize the bible is pretty rapey, but thats a topic for another thread).  And in this case it appears that the alleged rape was tolerated by the coaches and people higher up the food chain in order to preserve the tradition of tough guys prancing around in fields every friday night in the fall.  Any discussion of somehow placing blame on the victim, even just playing devil's advocate, is just point blank irrelevant.
 
2013-03-17 06:35:36 PM  

Trixie212: demonfaerie: give me doughnuts: Trixie212: The boys will pay the consequences for this all the rest of their days. Rightly so? Maybe. I just think she shares in the responsibility of what happened to her.

No, she doesn't. It's kind of disgusting that you, or anyone else, thinks that way.

This, and to respond to what Trexie said, she is going to be a damaged human being for awhile. She is seriously probably really messed up in the head right now for one doing a stupid thing that a lot of kids do, get drunk at a house party. Second, because people that she knew raped, violated, hurt her, and then humiliate her on the damn internet. Plus people who are suppose to help you through all this probably tried to cover up what happened.

Point taken.


I am glad you respect, and understand my point of view. I have no disrespect for your view point as well. However, I really dislike people trying to put some blame on the victim in these type of situations, because people have no idea what the victim is going through because of it. Just because she isn't going to jail doesn't mean she is not feeling any sort of consequence for the situation. Just because a teen did a stupid thing doesn't mean she deserve an action like being raped, or anyone doing anything stupid for that matter deserves to be raped. What they did to her, and the aftermath of that has probably scarred herself mentally so bad, she is going to need a lot of therapy to get back to a normal functioning person. Telling a victim that they are partially to blame or all of to blame based on a choice she did whether it was dressing the way she did, or act, or whatever doesn't mean she deserved it. People telling her she did probably will make her feel worse off, and more messed up. I know people who have been sexually assaulted, and I have as too. You feel you are to blame, and you hide in yourself hating yourself not doing something more. You already blaming yourself for what was done to you, and having other people telling you are correct for feeling that way makes it worse. You don't want to try to better yourself, and learn from your mistakes. You wish you could go escape in a hole, and die.

To enforce my meaning, here is a part of an essay on women being viewed in society by John Berger. I have posted some of this essay earlier in the thread as well.

Men survey omen before treating them. Consequently how a woman appears to a man can determine how she will be treated. To acquire some control over this process, women must contain it and interiorize it. That part of a woman's self which is the surveyor treats the part which is the surveyed so as to demonstrate to others how her whole self would like to be treated. And this exemplary treatment of herself by herself constitutes her presence. Every woman's presence regulates what is and is not 'permissible' within her presence. Every one of her actions - whatever its direct purpose or motivation - is also read as an indication of how she would like to be treated. If a woman throws a glass on the floor, this is an example of how she treats her own emotion of anger and so of how she would wish it to be treated by others. If a man does the same, his action is only read as an expression of his anger. If a woman makes a good joke this is an example of how she treats the joker in herself and accordingly of how she as a joker-woman would like to be treated by others. Only a man can make a good joke for its own sake.
 
2013-03-17 06:37:09 PM  
She did NOT just "get drunk at a party" -- She was drugged before the party even began.

She lost consciousness before she even got to the first destination.

She was completely unable to resist. She wasn't just drunk. She was drugged.
 
2013-03-17 06:37:35 PM  
Trixie212:I have sons and I gave daughters and I've tried to imagine how I would feel if it was any of my kids who were involved in this. My opinion is not going to be popular but I really don't care. Had that been my daughter, I would have held her just as responsible for what happened to her as I would have the guys. I'm not saying that I wouldn't have understood her being hurt and upset and I know she would have had to deal with the consequences for a long time.

I feel sorry for your sons and daughters.  You are a terrible parent.  They deserve better.
 
2013-03-17 06:37:47 PM  

Bontesla: So, staying in control of yourself doesn't help to prevent rape. Not acting vulnerable doesn't. Not sending out sexually enticing signals doesn't. You've listed a whole bunch of things that don't help to prevent rape.

What are these "tricks" for women of which you now speak?

Uhm. We've been discussing these tips/suggestions for awhile now.
Ffs. If you're not going to try then why should I?


I've read this thread from top to bottom, and all I see are tricks for blaming men alone for rape.  You rattle off things that won't work very readily, but go "uhm" when asked for a few that work.

You didn't answer my question:  what would you think if you learned that this girl is still getting drunk with football  players every weekend?
 
2013-03-17 06:39:36 PM  

ZeroCorpse: She did NOT just "get drunk at a party" -- She was drugged before the party even began.

She lost consciousness before she even got to the first destination.

She was completely unable to resist. She wasn't just drunk. She was drugged.


Bullshiat, there's absolutely no proof that she was drugged or anything other than drunk.
 
2013-03-17 06:41:41 PM  

ZeroCorpse: She did NOT just "get drunk at a party" -- She was drugged before the party even began.

She lost consciousness before she even got to the first destination.

She was completely unable to resist. She wasn't just drunk. She was drugged.


Been on your side so far, but I'm afraid I'll need to see a citation for this. In order for the rational argument to prevail, it should continue to be backed by facts.
 
2013-03-17 06:42:00 PM  

ZeroCorpse: She did NOT just "get drunk at a party" -- She was drugged before the party even began.

She lost consciousness before she even got to the first destination.

She was completely unable to resist. She wasn't just drunk. She was drugged.


It doesn't matter how much you prove this, society likes to put blame on the victim. If it was a man, well he should of used his strength more to defend it, if not he wanted it, because he didn't fight back. For a woman, she deserved it, because she put herself out there (whether it was going out with a bunch of guys, drinking, dressing up pretty, showing skin, etc...) for someone to attack her, because she is a woman she should know better not to put herself in that situation.
 
2013-03-17 06:43:46 PM  

demonfaerie: Trixie212: demonfaerie: give me doughnuts: Trixie212: The boys will pay the consequences for this all the rest of their days. Rightly so? Maybe. I just think she shares in the responsibility of what happened to her.

No, she doesn't. It's kind of disgusting that you, or anyone else, thinks that way.

This, and to respond to what Trexie said, she is going to be a damaged human being for awhile. She is seriously probably really messed up in the head right now for one doing a stupid thing that a lot of kids do, get drunk at a house party. Second, because people that she knew raped, violated, hurt her, and then humiliate her on the damn internet. Plus people who are suppose to help you through all this probably tried to cover up what happened.

Point taken.

I am glad you respect, and understand my point of view. I have no disrespect for your view point as well. However, I really dislike people trying to put some blame on the victim in these type of situations, because people have no idea what the victim is going through because of it. Just because she isn't going to jail doesn't mean she is not feeling any sort of consequence for the situation. Just because a teen did a stupid thing doesn't mean she deserve an action like being raped, or anyone doing anything stupid for that matter deserves to be raped. What they did to her, and the aftermath of that has probably scarred herself mentally so bad, she is going to need a lot of therapy to get back to a normal functioning person. Telling a victim that they are partially to blame or all of to blame based on a choice she did whether it was dressing the way she did, or act, or whatever doesn't mean she deserved it. People telling her she did probably will make her feel worse off, and more messed up. I know people who have been sexually assaulted, and I have as too. You feel you are to blame, and you hide in yourself hating yourself not doing something more. You already blaming yourself for what was done to you, and having other people telling you are correct for feeling that way makes it worse. You don't want to try to better yourself, and learn from your mistakes. You wish you could go escape in a hole, and die.

To enforce my meaning, here is a part of an essay on women being viewed in society by John Berger. I have posted some of this essay earlier in the thread as well.

Men survey omen before treating them. Consequently how a woman appears to a man can determine how she will be treated. To acquire some control over this process, women must contain it and interiorize it. That part of a woman's self which is the surveyor treats the part which is the surveyed so as to demonstrate to others how her whole self would like to be treated. And this exemplary treatment of herself by herself constitutes her presence. Every woman's presence regulates what is and is not 'permissible' within her presence. Every one of her actions - whatever its direct purpose or motivation - is also read as an indication of how she would like to be treated. If a woman throws a glass on the floor, this is an example of how she treats her own emotion of anger and so of how she would wish it to be treated by others. If a man does the same, his action is only read as an expression of his anger. If a woman makes a good joke this is an example of how she treats the joker in herself and accordingly of how she as a joker-woman would like to be treated by others. Only a man can make a good joke for its own sake.


I do try to hear other points of view and in all truth, I don't feel she deserved to be raped and I'm pretty sure I've stated that, just maybe not vehemently enough.

I know others are saying she was drugged which would do more to make me reverse some of my feelings than anything else because she absolutely would have had no control over that. But, it's been my understanding that that has not been proven or has it? I'm open to listen.
 
2013-03-17 06:44:17 PM  

give me doughnuts: Silly Jesus: give me doughnuts: Trixie212: The boys will pay the consequences for this all the rest of their days. Rightly so? Maybe. I just think she shares in the responsibility of what happened to her.

No, she doesn't. It's kind of disgusting that you, or anyone else, thinks that way.

Can a victim of any crime ever share in the blame?  Or does that only apply to rape?

Perhaps only something like fraud. Violent crimes like rape, assault and the like? No, not really


So if I go on a sightseeing tour of Baghdad and get hurt I don't share some responsibility for being an idiot?  You libs really have gone too far with this whole allergy to any personal responsibility whatsoever.
 
2013-03-17 06:45:11 PM  

demonfaerie: It doesn't matter how much you prove this, society likes to put blame on the victim.


Don't confuse some people, with "society" overall.
 
2013-03-17 06:47:01 PM  

demonfaerie: Silly Jesus: demonfaerie: Popcorn Johnny: vygramul: It shouldn't take this level of detail.

It shouldn't? I guess in your world, we should believe a woman whenever she claims she was raped, right? After all, there's never been a case of a woman making up fake rape allegations, right?

Just because there have been some cases of women claiming they were raped, but they really weren't doesn't negate that there are 100 times more women in the world that actually are raped. And yes we should somewhat believe when a woman says she was raped, but at the same time there has to be an investigation of it to prove she is right. However, with people like you it is harder for women to bring up these allegations, because of your tone of putting blame on the victim. Just, because someone does a stupid behavior doesn't mean they should get hurt or raped for it. It can take years for a woman to get over being abused or raped, so putting this partial blame on the victim just makes it worse. It doesn't help or solve anything.

Folks such as yourself see someone saying "it probably wasn't a good idea for her to get blackout drunk etc." and somehow turn that in to "I think it was excellent that she was raped."  I've never understood that.

If I went out for a jog through some drug infested slums in Harlem at night and got mugged it wouldn't really "be my fault", but then again, it kinda would.  See how that works?  Certain decisions that humans make have some somewhat predictable consequences.  The people who mugged me shouldn't be excused from their actions, but I was certainly a dumbass for putting myself into that position.

No it wouldn't be your fault. That is a public area you have every right to be in, and if someone assaults you it is not your fault. shiat can happen everywhere, it even it places that are not "dangerous". Ok in your logic you put yourself as a dumbass, and then yes the girl did a dumbass thing, but that doesn't mean she should have partial blame to what happene ...


So people don't have any responsibility to not put themselves into dangerous situations?  She made irresponsible decisions.

Also, why does she need years of therapy for something she doesn't remember?  Why don't people who are mugged, rather than raped, need years of therapy?
 
2013-03-17 06:47:29 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Bontesla: So, staying in control of yourself doesn't help to prevent rape. Not acting vulnerable doesn't. Not sending out sexually enticing signals doesn't. You've listed a whole bunch of things that don't help to prevent rape.

What are these "tricks" for women of which you now speak?

Uhm. We've been discussing these tips/suggestions for awhile now.
Ffs. If you're not going to try then why should I?

I've read this thread from top to bottom, and all I see are tricks for blaming men alone for rape.  You rattle off things that won't work very readily, but go "uhm" when asked for a few that work.

You didn't answer my question:  what would you think if you learned that this girl is still getting drunk with football  players every weekend?


It really wouldn't change my attitude in the slightest.

Rape isn't the victim's fault. It's the rapist's fault.

What would you think if I told you that she consumed a single beer and was never technically drunk - but drugged? Obviously in this case you'd have to find another way in which the victim was responsible for her own rape. Perhaps she placed herself among friends she couldn't trust and ought to have known better. Perhaps she shouldn't have been partying or wearing something high school football players find particularly rape-worthy. You spend a lot of time inventing reasons why it's okay to blame her.

The fact is - women and men get raped because there are rapists. It doesn't matter what they're wearing or not wearing. It doesn't matter what they're drinking and not drinking. Rapists cause rape.

You keep saying that it's empowering for women to learn that had they not have imbibed alcohol - they have never have been raped. As an actual woman - I can guarantee that it's absurd. Women (and men) can follow all of your rules and still become victims of rape. Why? Because victims aren't to blame for rape. Rapists are.
 
2013-03-17 06:48:06 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: ZeroCorpse: She did NOT just "get drunk at a party" -- She was drugged before the party even began.

She lost consciousness before she even got to the first destination.

She was completely unable to resist. She wasn't just drunk. She was drugged.

Bullshiat, there's absolutely no proof that she was drugged or anything other than drunk.


What was her BAC?
 
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