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(Yahoo)   Justice delivered: two members of the high school football team that is the pride of Steubenville were found guilty of raping a drunken 16-year-old girl   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 772
    More: News, Ohio, found guilty, football team  
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12535 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Mar 2013 at 11:24 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-17 02:25:43 PM

Tak the Hideous New Girl: Trixie212: Tak the Hideous New Girl: I have sons and I gave daughters and I've tried to imagine how I would feel if it was any of my kids who were involved in this. My opinion is not going to be popular but I really don't care. Had that been my daughter, I would have held her just as responsible for what happened to her as I would have the guys. I'm not saying that I wouldn't have understood her being hurt and upset and I know she would have had to deal with the consequences for a long time.

See Trixie, this is why people think you are a horrible person (for the record I think you are a horrible person too).

You have a crying, traumatized girl (your daughter!) who's worried that she got a disease or is pregnant, is terrified that there pictures of her shame are all over Twitter or Facebook (something I did not have to worry about back in the dinosaur age, thank goodness), and your reaction is to tell your daughter, "Too bad, so sad, you should have made better choices."

I already understood what people thought. You're entitled to feel the way you do. I've been on Fark for a number of years and have taken exception to a lot of things people have said but I've never told anyone they were a horrible person.

I am being unfair to you. There are a whole lot of horrible people on this thread. You're being singled out because you'd heap shame on your own daughter.

Let's call out some other horrible people:

Popcorn Johnny - biatch probably wanted it.
hasy ambush - biatchez be lyin'
captainmaxthedestroyer - We can't help it! Men are slaves to their genitalia! If my dick wants it, biatchez better watch out!
Madbassist1 - Hey biatchez, take some responsibility when some guy(s) rapes your drunk, passed out ass and posts it all over the internet!
Initial Comment Guy - Rape, schmape, Anonymous convicted these guys and biatch probably wanted her unconscious fingerbang posted all over the internet anyway. biatchez are like that, amiright?
skwerl - I don't know nothin' but biatch probably ruined those two nice boys life over nothing.


I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt because I know that sometimes it's difficult to accurately portray the emotions behind the words. And because I know that everyone has a backstory that shapes their opinions. I disagree with a lot people but I don't believe any of you are horrible.
 
2013-03-17 02:26:36 PM

Lorelle: Bontesla: oukewldave: Rape is never OK, but do we know this was actually rape?  They say she was drunk, but where the guys drunk too?  If they were, I don't understand how they can be considered rapists, besides the fact they are male and that's how our society is.  Logically, if everyone was equally drunk, they could say she raped both of them...

Apparently everyone knew it was rape. Kids attending the various parties tweeted about how Rape Me by Nirvana was the song of the night.

At one point - the victim was so disoriented that she was carried in and out of the various parties. Reports were that the boys were showing her off - lifting up her skirt and touching her (some of this photographed) while she was unconscious.

That $#@!& POS Richmond also was photographed lifting up the victim's top and exposing her breasts to others.  And some of the others involved (who so far have gotten away with their crimes) also urinated on her.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2256386/Steubenville-rape-ca se -Video-shows-group-high-school-students-laughing-girls-ordeal.html

What those assholes did to her WAS brutal, despite what some here think. It's too bad that they will probably only do a year in juvie. The victim is going to have to deal with the fallout from this for the rest of her life.


And then to hear about the details from "friends", twitter, Instagram, and Facebook? That's such an exposed and horrific way to learn about it.

Then she was threatened by many, many bullies for coming forward and asking questions.

It's appalling.
 
2013-03-17 02:26:40 PM

InitialCommentGuy: SubBass49:
As far as I understood initial reports, he wasn't the only one "enjoying" the pics though.  Sure, he's the only one being punished.

Because the punishment was for distribution.  If we start going into possession by teenagers we open up that can of worms we were discussing, especially considering the media allows for unsolicited procurement.

Logic, meet SubBass49.


agileproductdesign.com

But you sure do use that word a lot. don't you?
 
2013-03-17 02:28:09 PM

Lady Indica: Quigs: Lady Indica: aedude01: ha-ha-guy: Lady Indica: They could have been charged with kidnapping (they moved the victim), criminal conspiracy, etc.

You can't convict on charges the prosecutors didn't file...

If the prosecutor didn't file these charges, in theory couldn't he file them now?  It wouldn't be double jeopardy since kidnapping is a completely different crime.

Yup, in theory. But it won't happen. You might see a criminal conspiracy case (based on the name 'rape crew' and the attempted intimidation and cover up that followed), but I doubt it. Any additional justice will probably come in the form of civil judgments against those involved. I wonder how much of it will be covered by various home owner insurance policies.

You can see in this very thread, despite the abundance of evidence in this case to rape, how many rape apologists there are. How many who say the victim is somehow responsible. Those are the type of people too stupid to get out of jury duty adjudicating these cases.

You're the only person I've got favorited. You're a generally awesome person, so I feel the need to step up here.

When someone gets behind the wheel of a car with alcohol in their system, and then gets involved in a traffic accident, no matter who was actually at fault, the drunk driver is recorded as being at fault. These are matters of life and death, and the person who chose to drink and do something dangerous is always at fault.

The guys who raped this girl are assholes, and I'd send them to the Wall, but I don't get how people can say that the girl is absolved of all responsibility, when the precedence is the drunk person is always responsible for what happens to themselves and others.

Oof. I've not plonked Trixie, even though I think she's pretty horrible with the shiat she's saying, because I think she's at least being honest with her opinion/perspective and I understand the seed of it. Same here (though you are not being horrible) with yours. This thread actually h ...


You are dealing with hypothetical in the medical condition.  It's just as safe to assume that if somebody had a medical condition that made them pass out, they'd take care of themselves by not binge drinking, etc.

And the drunk driver victim is just that, a victim, who isn't intoxicated.

The issue at hand with this is strictly a matter of intoxication.  Both parties were intoxicated.  And the girl was heavily intoxicated.  So she's not just a victim who was coming back from McDonalds and got hit by a drunk driver.

It's also not a matter of if the rapist are guilty or not.  They are.  They should be punished.  That's why the large contingent here that label me and some others as rape apologist are wrong.

She was irresponsible for her own safety.  That by no means that someone has the right to rape her.  But I refuse to feel any sympathy for someone in her condition as a "victim".
 
2013-03-17 02:28:40 PM

Uncle Tractor: mikaloyd: [i.imgur.com image 850x529]

Is it possible that those guys really did not know that they were doing something wrong?


The number of actual sociopaths in America is a probably a lot higher than anyone would like to admit, add to that our sex culture of treating women as objects and our unreasonable leniency on people in sports and you've got a perfect cocktail for selfish sadistic behavior.
 
2013-03-17 02:30:33 PM

oukewldave: Rape is never OK, but do we know this was actually rape?  They say she was drunk, but where the guys drunk too?  If they were, I don't understand how they can be considered rapists, besides the fact they are male and that's how our society is.  Logically, if everyone was equally drunk, they could say she raped both of them...


That's the difference to me. It wasn't a violent rape. It would have been a case of "he said, she said" if the boys hadn't photographed and discussed what happened online.  As juveniles, they won't be on the sex offender register, right?

I hope they do go after the adults who tried to cover it up.
 
2013-03-17 02:31:04 PM
Good.

That is all.
 
2013-03-17 02:32:35 PM

vudukungfu: Perhaps folks would be less whimsical about all of this is she has died and they had kept going all schoolboy on her.

If your classmate is impaired, you protect them.

Period.


This-
women have the right to say no at any time.
How would it be if these little bro's got drunk and were raped?
Would it be funny then?
Would it be okay?
 
2013-03-17 02:33:05 PM
Has anyone mentioned butterscotch in this thread?

"Butterscotch yo!"
/wonder if prison rape applies to juvenile detention
 
2013-03-17 02:33:27 PM

SubBass49: Rape someone = Somehow you deserve to spend a year at summer camp


Why do people think juvenile lockup is an easy place to do time? In general it is much harder to get locked up as a minor than it is an adult. I wouldn't be surprised if per-capita there are more violent offenders in the juvenile prison than in the adult.

 Ohio's youth-detention system has been shrinking for at least two years, with less-serious offenders diverted to community facilities. As a result, those who remain in the system are the most violent.
 
2013-03-17 02:33:51 PM

Marcintosh: vudukungfu: Perhaps folks would be less whimsical about all of this is she has died and they had kept going all schoolboy on her.

If your classmate is impaired, you protect them.

Period.

This-
women have the right to say no at any time.
How would it be if these little bro's got drunk and were raped?
Would it be funny then?
Would it be okay?


Are we talking in current-day...knowing what we know about these guys?  How they thought rape was something to brag about?  Something hilarious?

Then yes, it would be pretty funny.
 
2013-03-17 02:35:39 PM

DrewCurtisJr: SubBass49: Rape someone = Somehow you deserve to spend a year at summer camp

Why do people think juvenile lockup is an easy place to do time? In general it is much harder to get locked up as a minor than it is an adult. I wouldn't be surprised if per-capita there are more violent offenders in the juvenile prison than in the adult.

 Ohio's youth-detention system has been shrinking for at least two years, with less-serious offenders diverted to community facilities. As a result, those who remain in the system are the most violent.


I'm a high school teacher, and I have a lot of students that have spent time in juvenile lock-up.  They say it's cake.
 
2013-03-17 02:36:37 PM

Tak the Hideous New Girl: Trixie212: Tak the Hideous New Girl: I have sons and I gave daughters and I've tried to imagine how I would feel if it was any of my kids who were involved in this. My opinion is not going to be popular but I really don't care. Had that been my daughter, I would have held her just as responsible for what happened to her as I would have the guys. I'm not saying that I wouldn't have understood her being hurt and upset and I know she would have had to deal with the consequences for a long time.

See Trixie, this is why people think you are a horrible person (for the record I think you are a horrible person too).

You have a crying, traumatized girl (your daughter!) who's worried that she got a disease or is pregnant, is terrified that there pictures of her shame are all over Twitter or Facebook (something I did not have to worry about back in the dinosaur age, thank goodness), and your reaction is to tell your daughter, "Too bad, so sad, you should have made better choices."

I already understood what people thought. You're entitled to feel the way you do. I've been on Fark for a number of years and have taken exception to a lot of things people have said but I've never told anyone they were a horrible person.

I am being unfair to you. There are a whole lot of horrible people on this thread. You're being singled out because you'd heap shame on your own daughter.

Let's call out some other horrible people:

Popcorn Johnny - biatch probably wanted it.
hasy ambush - biatchez be lyin'
captainmaxthedestroyer - We can't help it! Men are slaves to their genitalia! If my dick wants it, biatchez better watch out!
Madbassist1 - Hey biatchez, take some responsibility when some guy(s) rapes your drunk, passed out ass and posts it all over the internet!
Initial Comment Guy - Rape, schmape, Anonymous convicted these guys and biatch probably wanted her unconscious fingerbang posted all over the internet anyway. biatchez are like that, amiright?
skwerl - I don't know nothin' but biat ...


Hey, Fiona Apple, a more appropriate description for me would be "men are inherently animals lead by their penis, especially juveniles, so biatches best not get comatose drunk around them and expect them to cherish their honor.  Because that shiat ain't smart, yo."
 
2013-03-17 02:36:42 PM
even the way the others that witnessed this and were able to laugh about it makes me sick to my stomach.
that entire town must be so clinton it's ruined forever.
 
2013-03-17 02:38:14 PM

Trixie212: Not that it matters considering what WAS done to her but I understood the news to say that no one urinated on her.


This article states that one asshole claimed that he was joking when he offered $3 to anyone who peed on the unconscious victim, but that no one took him up on it:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/highschool--steubenville-high-school-fo ot ball-players-found-guilty-of-raping-16-year-old-girl-164129528.html

The asshole who made the video that appears in the previous link I posted stated otherwise, and other reports note that other witnesses sent text messages stating that the victim WAS urinated on.

Again, what they did to her was brutal and disgusting.

Just curious...if one of your daughters became a victim of date rape, would you consider her 50% responsible because she dared to go out on a date in the first place?
 
2013-03-17 02:38:54 PM

Bontesla: iaazathot: Bontesla: BarkingUnicorn: Bontesla: Rape is NEVER partially the victim's fault.

Every time I read something like this, I wonder why its author is being so helpful to rapists.  Women who think they can do whatever they want guilt-free are easy pickings.

Why do you think blaming rape victims is helpful to women or rape victims?

The only risk factor for being raped is being in the presence of a rapist. Most of the time - the victim isn't aware they're in the presence of a rapist until after the rape.

Wearing frumpy clothes doesn't prevent rape. Traveling in groups doesn't prevent rape. Drinking doesn't prevent rape.

Suggesting that if only this girl remained sober, she wouldn't have been raped is absurd and speculative.

Teaching people that you can avoid rape if you follow these things is incredibly cruel to the victims that have followed all of the rules and still ended up being raped.

I do understand what you are saying, right up until that last sentence.  Statistically speaking, you are less likely to be raped or sexually assaulted if drugs and/or alcohol are not involved.  Probabilities decrease, but never fall to zero.

As a self-defense instructor, it would be patently irresponsible for me to not discuss these facts with the people who come to me for advice and help.  The difference is leaving the judgement factor out of it.  I don't judge a victim, after the fact, for having been intoxicated.  It serves no purpose to do so, and would be cruel and uncaring.

Your statements about what does and doesn't prevent rape is a binary one, and doesn't reflect statistical reality.  More rapes happen in isolation than not. More rapes happen when drugs and alcohol are present (this can vary by culture and extreme circumstance (war for example) I am speaking about American culture right now).  The dressing thing is really complex and difficult to parse, so I will side with you on that.

Pointing out statistical facts to people increases their ability to make ...


I completely agree that being informed is not a guarantee, nor would I ever, ever tell people it is.

I disagree with your statements about drinking.  There is a lot of evidence that alcohol and drug use is involved in a significant number of sexual assaults, although, as I said, this can vary by culture and location.  For example, among college students the use of alcohol is a significant presence in sexual assault situations.  It is not the only factor.

As far as what triggers a rapist, and your statements along those lines.  We can't control for what others are thinking and planning.  We can only really control for what we are doing and make adjustments based on new data as it comes in.  That being said, if someone else decides to try and hurt you, they have made that decision.  You didn't make it for them.  You then have to make decisions based on that.  It isn't fair, it isn't right, it isn't the victims fault, but that is the reality.

I don't understand how giving people information is insulting to other victims.  It think it is the judging that is insensitive and cruel.  I think we mostly agree on this.

I get the feeling that your issue is with how larger culture and media reduce some of these statistical facts down to a "checklist" and that is some sort of magic talisman.  I agree that this is a problem.

I would never tell my clients that if you do A, B, and C you will never be attacked.  Life doesn't work that way.  You can do all the right things and still have horrible, horrible things happen.  I don't have a solution for that, I'm sorry.
 
2013-03-17 02:44:15 PM

iaazathot: Bontesla: iaazathot: Bontesla: BarkingUnicorn: Bontesla: Rape is NEVER partially the victim's fault.

Every time I read something like this, I wonder why its author is being so helpful to rapists.  Women who think they can do whatever they want guilt-free are easy pickings.

Why do you think blaming rape victims is helpful to women or rape victims?

The only risk factor for being raped is being in the presence of a rapist. Most of the time - the victim isn't aware they're in the presence of a rapist until after the rape.

Wearing frumpy clothes doesn't prevent rape. Traveling in groups doesn't prevent rape. Drinking doesn't prevent rape.

Suggesting that if only this girl remained sober, she wouldn't have been raped is absurd and speculative.

Teaching people that you can avoid rape if you follow these things is incredibly cruel to the victims that have followed all of the rules and still ended up being raped.

I do understand what you are saying, right up until that last sentence.  Statistically speaking, you are less likely to be raped or sexually assaulted if drugs and/or alcohol are not involved.  Probabilities decrease, but never fall to zero.

As a self-defense instructor, it would be patently irresponsible for me to not discuss these facts with the people who come to me for advice and help.  The difference is leaving the judgement factor out of it.  I don't judge a victim, after the fact, for having been intoxicated.  It serves no purpose to do so, and would be cruel and uncaring.

Your statements about what does and doesn't prevent rape is a binary one, and doesn't reflect statistical reality.  More rapes happen in isolation than not. More rapes happen when drugs and alcohol are present (this can vary by culture and extreme circumstance (war for example) I am speaking about American culture right now).  The dressing thing is really complex and difficult to parse, so I will side with you on that.

Pointing out statistical facts to people increases their abili ...


Again - I said there's a difference between teaching precaution and blaming victims for not taking precaution.

Being proactive is helpful but the only thing that causes rape are rapists. We should arm everyone with knowledge on how to mitigate their risk at being victims (in general - not merely for rape). But suggesting that a woman or man could prevent their own rape if only is insulting particularly to victims that have followed all of the precautions yet still were raped.

Rapists are the only cause of rape.
 
2013-03-17 02:44:32 PM

Theaetetus: Why try to hide the fact that there's an affirmative actor, a rapist, behind this vague "something bad is going to happen" as if it's a force of nature or a statistical likelihood, rather than a criminal?  Isn't your very language attempting to remove blame from the rapist?


It has been known for two equally drunk people to have consensual sex which they both regretted equally in the sober light of morning. That is a bad, sexual consequence of unwise drunkenness in which no rapist is involved.
 
2013-03-17 02:46:15 PM

Lorelle: Trixie212: Not that it matters considering what WAS done to her but I understood the news to say that no one urinated on her.

This article states that one asshole claimed that he was joking when he offered $3 to anyone who peed on the unconscious victim, but that no one took him up on it:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/highschool--steubenville-high-school-fo ot ball-players-found-guilty-of-raping-16-year-old-girl-164129528.html

The asshole who made the video that appears in the previous link I posted stated otherwise, and other reports note that other witnesses sent text messages stating that the victim WAS urinated on.

Again, what they did to her was brutal and disgusting.

Just curious...if one of your daughters became a victim of date rape, would you consider her 50% responsible because she dared to go out on a date in the first place?


It will not matter how I answer that question. I will be absolutely wrong...and vilified. People will pick out a portion of what I said and overlook the rest because after all, I am horrible.

/welcome to Fark, blah, blah, blah
 
2013-03-17 02:52:46 PM

Lady Indica: Quigs: Lady Indica: aedude01: ha-ha-guy: Lady Indica: They could have been charged with kidnapping (they moved the victim), criminal conspiracy, etc.

You can't convict on charges the prosecutors didn't file...

....

Oof. I've not plonked Trixie, even though I think she's pretty horrible with the shiat she's saying, because I think she's at least being honest with her opinion/perspective and I understand the seed of it. Same here (though you are not being horrible) with yours. This thread actually h ...



So glad I ignored your TL;DR notice, favorited x1000
 
2013-03-17 02:54:53 PM

adamgreeney: Rape is never, at any point, acceptable behavior.


Since rape is defined, effectively, as "unacceptable sexual behaviour", that may not be the world's most searing insight. The question is not whether rape is unacceptable, but whether particular behaviour is unacceptable and therefore rape.

In this case it clearly was.
 
2013-03-17 02:55:06 PM

Lady Indica: Quigs: Lady Indica: aedude01: ha-ha-guy: Lady Indica: They could have been charged with kidnapping (they moved the victim), criminal conspiracy, etc.

You can't convict on charges the prosecutors didn't file...

If the prosecutor didn't file these charges, in theory couldn't he file them now?  It wouldn't be double jeopardy since kidnapping is a completely different crime.

Yup, in theory. But it won't happen. You might see a criminal conspiracy case (based on the name 'rape crew' and the attempted intimidation and cover up that followed), but I doubt it. Any additional justice will probably come in the form of civil judgments against those involved. I wonder how much of it will be covered by various home owner insurance policies.

You can see in this very thread, despite the abundance of evidence in this case to rape, how many rape apologists there are. How many who say the victim is somehow responsible. Those are the type of people too stupid to get out of jury duty adjudicating these cases.

You're the only person I've got favorited. You're a generally awesome person, so I feel the need to step up here.

When someone gets behind the wheel of a car with alcohol in their system, and then gets involved in a traffic accident, no matter who was actually at fault, the drunk driver is recorded as being at fault. These are matters of life and death, and the person who chose to drink and do something dangerous is always at fault.

The guys who raped this girl are assholes, and I'd send them to the Wall, but I don't get how people can say that the girl is absolved of all responsibility, when the precedence is the drunk person is always responsible for what happens to themselves and others.

Oof. I've not plonked Trixie, even though I think she's pretty horrible with the shiat she's saying, because I think she's at least being honest with her opinion/perspective and I understand the seed of it. Same here (though you are not being horrible) with yours. This thread actually h ...


Works for me. <3 Thanks for the clarification.
 
2013-03-17 02:59:40 PM

SubBass49: tirob: SubBass49: InitialCommentGuy: SubBass49: Life sentences?  I never said that.  Raped as punishment?  Sure, would be more appropriate punishment than a year in a lockdown version of summer camp.  Something more appropriate would have been a middle ground though.  Serving until age 18 in a juvenile facility, followed by transfer to an adult facility for a term of 5 years additional, plus lifetime registration as sex offenders.  THAT sentence would seem just.  THAT sentence would have me completely satisfied.  ONE year is a farking joke, and you know it.  They know it too.


Welcome to sentencing guidelines.  Being fingered while intoxicated in Ohio gets a year.  Want a change?  Talk to your local legislature.

How about transmission of child-porn via cell phones?


One of the boys got an additional year added onto his sentence for that.

As far as I understood initial reports, he wasn't the only one "enjoying" the pics though.  Sure, he's the only one being punished.


This will be surmise on my part, but I would guess that the prosecutors found it necessary to forgive some of the people who distributed the images in question in exchange for their testimony against the accused.
 
2013-03-17 03:02:44 PM

Bontesla: BarkingUnicorn: Bontesla: Rape is NEVER partially the victim's fault.

Every time I read something like this, I wonder why its author is being so helpful to rapists.  Women who think they can do whatever they want guilt-free are easy pickings.

Why do you think blaming rape victims is helpful to women or rape victims?

The only risk factor for being raped is being in the presence of a rapist. Most of the time - the victim isn't aware they're in the presence of a rapist until after the rape.

Wearing frumpy clothes doesn't prevent rape. Traveling in groups doesn't prevent rape. Drinking doesn't prevent rape.

Suggesting that if only this girl remained sober, she wouldn't have been raped is absurd and speculative.

Teaching people that you can avoid rape if you follow these things is incredibly cruel to the victims that have followed all of the rules and still ended up being raped.


Teaching defensive driving is incredibly cruel to people who get t-boned despite driving defensively.

When is a rape victim going to feel better:  after reviewing her past actions and seeing where she farked up, or after reviewing her past actions and rightfully concluding that she did all she reasonably could?

I don't advocate playing "I told you so" or "you should have known better."  I advocate teaching women to do all they reasonably can before rape happens.

What could possibly be more demeaning and disabling to women  than, "There's nothing you could have done?"
 
2013-03-17 03:04:26 PM

Trixie212: adamgreeney: Trixie212: adamgreeney: Trixie212: You're allowed to be disgusted. Why do you ignore the fact that I've said they had no right to touch her and are guilty. That doesn't negate the fact that she shares some responsibility.

/don't care if you agree or understand

Saying they had no right to touch her, but she's somehow responsible are TOTALLY conflicting statements. If they had no right, then there isn't any blame to place on her. If she was "asking for it," then that absolves them of some guilt, they just did what she was asking for. There isn't anything to understand here. You're slut shaming and blaming the victim because she got drunk, and possibly drugged.

I said she SHARED responsibility, not that she was totally responsible. If you want to call that slut shaming, so be it.

How does she share in anything? She was passed out! She couldn't have done anything if she tried to. Where exactly is her responsibility.

InitialCommentGuy: adamgreeney:

No matter what the situation, no one should think that raping an unconscious person is acceptable. It isn't. We should all be evolved enough and have the smallest shred of morality so that when we see an unconscious person, we don't jump to raping them. No one has the right to violate anyone else, regardless of the circumstances. There aren't shades of gray here. She didn't do anything wrong, and was possibly drugged, which renders your point moot. Why so staunchly try to find her at fault here?

And yet I cannot be the controller of every individual.  While the kids committed a crime she provided opportunity for said crime to occur through her actions.

They could have raped her if she was stone cold sober too, or any other girl they ran across while horny. She simply existed, which I don't think most people feel is offering opportunity for a crime.

Her responsibility was to not get so farking drunk that she was no longer in control of her actions.


Her friends suck too. To have no one with a brain intervene. It is astonishing.
 
2013-03-17 03:06:40 PM

SubBass49: I'm a high school teacher, and I have a lot of students that have spent time in juvenile lock-up.  They say it's cake.


Depends on the system I guess. I know people who've done time in, and worked in adult and juvenile detention. The adult system has a lot more people sentenced for selling drugs, the juvenile system is more heavily violent criminals.
 
2013-03-17 03:06:48 PM

Madbassist1: Glendale: Popcorn Johnny: How does subby know that justice was served, was he an eyewitness to the events? Fact is innocent people are found guilty and vice versa all the time. Nobody here knows if they're rapists or just kids who got some drunken, consensual pussy.

I don't think it matters because the drunkenness automatically makes it non-consensual by law, or something.

 Males are always responsible for their actions, dumbass. Only females get the free pass.


If a group of females gang raped a teen boy, I'd expect there to be consequences as well.

There is never any excuse to rape, EVER. I don't care how someone is dressed or what they've consumed, don't farking rape. Is that so goddamn hard to understand?
 
2013-03-17 03:09:31 PM

Bontesla: iaazathot: Bontesla: iaazathot: Bontesla: BarkingUnicorn: Bontesla: Rape is NEVER partially the victim's fault.

Every time I read something like this, I wonder why its author is being so helpful to rapists.  Women who think they can do whatever they want guilt-free are easy pickings.

Why do you think blaming rape victims is helpful to women or rape victims?

The only risk factor for being raped is being in the presence of a rapist. Most of the time - the victim isn't aware they're in the presence of a rapist until after the rape.

Wearing frumpy clothes doesn't prevent rape. Traveling in groups doesn't prevent rape. Drinking doesn't prevent rape.

Suggesting that if only this girl remained sober, she wouldn't have been raped is absurd and speculative.

Teaching people that you can avoid rape if you follow these things is incredibly cruel to the victims that have followed all of the rules and still ended up being raped.

I do understand what you are saying, right up until that last sentence.  Statistically speaking, you are less likely to be raped or sexually assaulted if drugs and/or alcohol are not involved.  Probabilities decrease, but never fall to zero.

As a self-defense instructor, it would be patently irresponsible for me to not discuss these facts with the people who come to me for advice and help.  The difference is leaving the judgement factor out of it.  I don't judge a victim, after the fact, for having been intoxicated.  It serves no purpose to do so, and would be cruel and uncaring.

Your statements about what does and doesn't prevent rape is a binary one, and doesn't reflect statistical reality.  More rapes happen in isolation than not. More rapes happen when drugs and alcohol are present (this can vary by culture and extreme circumstance (war for example) I am speaking about American culture right now).  The dressing thing is really complex and difficult to parse, so I will side with you on that.

Pointing out statistical facts to people increases ...


I agree with you.  Judgement of the victim is wrong.

I think that your last sentence, while ultimately true, doesn't really provide many options for people, but is important to understand when dealing with a victim.  That some get hurt regardless of precautions is also true.

Again, we typically can't control other people (unless we are willing to be as awful as rapists or tyrants), we can only control what we do.  That is equally as true.  The only thing we can do is try to negotiate that triangle of truths as best we can and hope that our society gets better by the day.

That this is even an open topic of conversation these days in a public forum is some small sign that things have improved, but it is not ideal at all.
 
2013-03-17 03:10:08 PM
Madame Ovary:Her friends suck too. To have no one with a brain intervene. It is astonishing.

Mob mentality is a terrible thing. Group think can be too. It's hard for adults to go against a group, and almost impossible for some children. Much easier to blame the single person and stick with the group, than become an outlier...look what happened to them, after all.
 
2013-03-17 03:11:47 PM

Lady Indica: We don't hear a mother claiming that if her daughter were crippled in a wreck, that she'd be lecturing her on her personal responsibility.


Actually, that does happen, though I wouldn't describe it as "lecturing." After my cousin's jeep was smashed into and thrown off the road by a drunk driver, it was pretty common in my family for a while to hear about how driving late at night was dangerous and to just wait until morning if we needed something so we didn't get hit by a drunk driver. No one called it victim blaming, though, oddly enough; we all recognized that it wasn't my cousin's fault, but we also realized that it's acceptable to take action to minimize risk because there are drivers out there who have had it drilled into them not to drive drunk but, despite efforts of organizations and people both governmental and nongovernmental, still do it.

www.drive-safely.net
 
2013-03-17 03:15:21 PM

Tak the Hideous New Girl: Let's call out some other horrible people:


You're a horrible person because you're obviously willing to find people guilty based on their character, rather than actually having evidence that a crime was committed.
 
2013-03-17 03:16:05 PM
NOT in the Ohio rape statute--or in any rape statute that I know of:

"Evidence that the complainant was unconscious shall be an affirmative defense to a charge of rape."

"Evidence that the complainant voluntarily accompanied the accused to a place where a rape was alleged to have been committed shall be an affirmative defense to a charge of rape."

"Evidence that the complainant's faculties were weakened because s/he had voluntarily ingested alcohol shall be an affirmative defense to a charge of rape."
 
2013-03-17 03:18:20 PM
No means no, boys. But I hear the same rule doesn't apply in prison. Enjoy your stay.
 
2013-03-17 03:20:31 PM

Stephen_Falken: You know, sometimes you have to convince a girl that she really wants to do it. She'll play like she doesn't, and after a few hours of drinking and 4play, she finally loosens up and enjoys herself. Then the next day after the alcohol has worn off, all of her sick and twisted repressive personality traits return in full force, and she starts screaming RAEP to make herself feel less guilty for having FINALLY stopped being a gold digging prick tease and put out for a cool, good looking guy. Given this common scenario, I have to wonder how many guys get unfairly blamed for some crazy chick's personal Daddy issues.

/just sayin, since I hate self-righteous idiots wielding pitchforks


you are a self righteous idiot with a pitchfork
 
2013-03-17 03:21:02 PM
SubBass49: DrewCurtisJr: SubBass49: Rape someone = Somehow you deserve to spend a year at summer camp

Why do people think juvenile lockup is an easy place to do time? In general it is much harder to get locked up as a minor than it is an adult. I wouldn't be surprised if per-capita there are more violent offenders in the juvenile prison than in the adult.

 Ohio's youth-detention system has been shrinking for at least two years, with less-serious offenders diverted to community facilities. As a result, those who remain in the system are the most violent.


I'm a high school teacher, and I have a lot of students that have spent time in juvenile lock-up.  They say it's cake.


Then it's changed.   It used to be pretty medieval.  OTOH, Ohio so . . .
 
2013-03-17 03:23:30 PM
Holy shiat.

This thread.  Holy farking shiat.

Anyone trying to stop the victim blaming, keep it up and many beers to you, because holy shiat, there are some grade a farking unhealthy whackadoodles all up in this thread.

/getting the fark out of here
 
2013-03-17 03:24:40 PM

accelerus: Wow - so you can rape a minor and only have to do a year in jail?

This makes me wonder how those guys on "to catch a predator" can get multiple years worth of hard prison time, along with a lifetime sex offender status for simply showing up to a house containing NO UNDERAGE GIRLS.

I fully realize in both example - the guys are scum, but getting a slap on the wrist for doing the crime, and then getting your life taken away for thinking about doing the crime... wow.

How long till we see these guys in the news again for raping someone after they are out of juvenile? I'd love to see some hard data on the probability of a sexual offender doing a repeat offense X number of years after caught.

Why not just make a rule that says "if you are convicted of rape, you will have your junk cut off, and be put in a hard labor camp for 20 years -- or we hang out, your choice"  Sure it sounds harsh... but anyone who would actually rape someone isn't someone that should be allowed to take up space in what otherwise might be a good society.


They're under 18. The guys on the TV show aren't.

Not saying I necessarily agree, given the information that's been distributed thanks to Anonymous (seems fairly clear these boys were well aware of what they were doing--and yes, if a woman or girl is so drunk she's passed out, she is legally unable to give consent according to the law in nearly every state I know of, which makes it rape, despite what anyone might think), but you can't just decide to try them as adults because you are repulsed by their actions if the law says otherwise. And her being underage, as someone stated, isn't a factor (I don't think? IANAL) if the boys were as well and they were the same age or close to it. Some states have a within two/three years clause to keep 17 and 18 year old boys from being charged with rape by angry parents for sleeping with their 15 and 16 year old girlfriends.
 
2013-03-17 03:24:54 PM

captainmaxthedestroyer: Hey, Fiona Apple, a more appropriate description for me would be "men are inherently animals lead by their penis, especially juveniles, so biatches best not get comatose drunk around them and expect them to cherish their honor. Because that shiat ain't smart, yo."


I hope you (and the others who share your sentiment) aren't among the Farkers who, in other threads, biatch about the damn feminazis thinking everything with a penis is a rapist. Ditto the Farkers mocking fundie Islamists who believe women should all be in burkas lest they ignite the passions of the menfolk with a sexy ankle and force those men to rape them.

/'cause, you know, that'd be hypocritical
//in addition to just being disgusting
 
2013-03-17 03:27:39 PM

ChimbleySweep: I hope you (and the others who share your sentiment) aren't among the Farkers who, in other threads, biatch about the damn feminazis thinking everything with a penis is a rapist. Ditto the Farkers mocking fundie Islamists who believe women should all be in burkas lest they ignite the passions of the menfolk with a sexy ankle and force those men to rape them.


All things are always the same. Always.

You seem limited.
 
2013-03-17 03:28:34 PM
I agree that these guys got off light as far as doing any real jail time goes. With that said, having to register as a sex offender is something that's gonna haunt them for the rest of they're lives! They'll always be known as creeps! That's a harsh punishment!
 
2013-03-17 03:30:30 PM
Sounds to me like someone here raped a drunk girl and doesn't like it being pointed out to them.
 
2013-03-17 03:35:17 PM

jso2897: Lionel Mandrake: Popcorn Johnny: How does subby know that justice was served, was he an eyewitness to the events? Fact is innocent people are found guilty and vice versa all the time. Nobody here knows if they're rapists or just kids who got some drunken, consensual pussy.

Well, shiat...we all know how unreliable eye witnesses are.  Unless there's DNA and videotape evidence, we can't be sure of guilt.  So let's let out all the prisoners with less than that as evidence out.  Your rapey jock buddies can go free along with most of the other guys!

They never proved Charlie Manson killed anybody - let's cut him loose!


You joke, but there are people who continue to believe in Chucky.  Some are trolls, some are "liberty before logic", some are those creepy serial killer groupies, and plenty are just racists; but they all exist.
 
2013-03-17 03:35:34 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Bontesla: BarkingUnicorn: Bontesla: Rape is NEVER partially the victim's fault.

Every time I read something like this, I wonder why its author is being so helpful to rapists.  Women who think they can do whatever they want guilt-free are easy pickings.

Why do you think blaming rape victims is helpful to women or rape victims?

The only risk factor for being raped is being in the presence of a rapist. Most of the time - the victim isn't aware they're in the presence of a rapist until after the rape.

Wearing frumpy clothes doesn't prevent rape. Traveling in groups doesn't prevent rape. Drinking doesn't prevent rape.

Suggesting that if only this girl remained sober, she wouldn't have been raped is absurd and speculative.

Teaching people that you can avoid rape if you follow these things is incredibly cruel to the victims that have followed all of the rules and still ended up being raped.

Teaching defensive driving is incredibly cruel to people who get t-boned despite driving defensively.

When is a rape victim going to feel better:  after reviewing her past actions and seeing where she farked up, or after reviewing her past actions and rightfully concluding that she did all she reasonably could?

I don't advocate playing "I told you so" or "you should have known better."  I advocate teaching women to do all they reasonably can before rape happens.

What could possibly be more demeaning and disabling to women  than, "There's nothing you could have done?"


Why would that be demeaning or disabling to know that you're not to blame for your rape? That sounds freeing.

There's nothing wrong with teaching one another:
1). The only one responsible for rape are rapists. You are not responsible for your rape.
2). There are precautions that may make you a little safer. Here they are...

As a general rule - we don't blame shooting victims for not wearing bulletproof vests. Certainly protective armor could have helped mitigate risks but ultimately the shooter is responsible for the shootings.

I know the comparison is ill-fitting but I hope it conveys my point.
 
2013-03-17 03:35:57 PM

InitialCommentGuy: ChimbleySweep: I hope you (and the others who share your sentiment) aren't among the Farkers who, in other threads, biatch about the damn feminazis thinking everything with a penis is a rapist. Ditto the Farkers mocking fundie Islamists who believe women should all be in burkas lest they ignite the passions of the menfolk with a sexy ankle and force those men to rape them.

All things are always the same. Always.

You seem limited.


The other guy was saying men are raging hornballs led around by their dicks, and wimminfolk best stay inside if they don't want to be getting raped. Islamists say women need to be covered up head to toe so that their hornball men don't feel incited to rape them. So-called feminazis are said to consider all men are hornballs who only listen to their dicks and therefore should all be considered rapists. All such radically different things!
 
2013-03-17 03:40:30 PM

OgreMagi: Their defense was "she didn't say no".  Didn't anyone explain to these assholes that when a girl is that drunk, that she can't give consent?  Even if she had drunkenly said, "yes", she still can not give consent.  Also, she was 16, so probably can't give consent even if sober (not sure of that state's laws on that).

This simple thing should be part of sex education.  IF SHE IS DRUNK SHE CAN NOT GIVE CONSENT.  How farking hard is this to understand?

I bet that town is going to make that poor girl's life miserable now.  Assholes.


Exactly! Men have to take responsibility! Women don't!! You tell em!
 
2013-03-17 03:40:52 PM

Rann Xerox: knobmaker: Bender The Offender: Popcorn Johnny: Musikslayer: Popcorn Johnny:  drunken, consensual

Oxymoron, dumbass.

Drunk people never have consensual sex? I guess I'm guilty of raping my girlfriend about 237 times.

If by "girlfriend" you mean your "right hand"

Now, be fair.  He could be lefthanded.

Or he could have no hands and uses his feet instead.


What's truly pathetic is that he's actually keeping count.

/knuckle orphans?
 
2013-03-17 03:42:02 PM

I should be in the kitchen: Madbassist1: Glendale: Popcorn Johnny: How does subby know that justice was served, was he an eyewitness to the events? Fact is innocent people are found guilty and vice versa all the time. Nobody here knows if they're rapists or just kids who got some drunken, consensual pussy.

I don't think it matters because the drunkenness automatically makes it non-consensual by law, or something.

 Males are always responsible for their actions, dumbass. Only females get the free pass.

If a group of females gang raped a teen boy, I'd expect there to be consequences as well.

There is never any excuse to rape, EVER. I don't care how someone is dressed or what they've consumed, don't farking rape. Is that so goddamn hard to understand?


Except I dont think that's what happened. I think she was a willing participant and passed out after the fact. Just my opinion based on what I know. I havent followed it on Nancy Grace or anything.
 
2013-03-17 03:43:06 PM

Madbassist1: I should be in the kitchen: Madbassist1: Glendale: Popcorn Johnny: How does subby know that justice was served, was he an eyewitness to the events? Fact is innocent people are found guilty and vice versa all the time. Nobody here knows if they're rapists or just kids who got some drunken, consensual pussy.

I don't think it matters because the drunkenness automatically makes it non-consensual by law, or something.

 Males are always responsible for their actions, dumbass. Only females get the free pass.

If a group of females gang raped a teen boy, I'd expect there to be consequences as well.

There is never any excuse to rape, EVER. I don't care how someone is dressed or what they've consumed, don't farking rape. Is that so goddamn hard to understand?

Except I dont think that's what happened. I think she was a willing participant and passed out after the fact. Just my opinion based on what I know. I havent followed it on Nancy Grace or anything.


Citations?
 
2013-03-17 03:49:30 PM

telaran: Lady Indica: We don't hear a mother claiming that if her daughter were crippled in a wreck, that she'd be lecturing her on her personal responsibility.

Actually, that does happen, though I wouldn't describe it as "lecturing." After my cousin's jeep was smashed into and thrown off the road by a drunk driver, it was pretty common in my family for a while to hear about how driving late at night was dangerous and to just wait until morning if we needed something so we didn't get hit by a drunk driver. No one called it victim blaming, though, oddly enough; we all recognized that it wasn't my cousin's fault, but we also realized that it's acceptable to take action to minimize risk because there are drivers out there who have had it drilled into them not to drive drunk but, despite efforts of organizations and people both governmental and nongovernmental, still do it.

[www.drive-safely.net image 300x207]


No offense, but if I was your cousin, I would tell whoever was saying that shiat to shut the fark up. It is victim blaming. It's passive-aggressive blaming of your cousin for driving on a road she had every right to drive on, perfectly sober when some other jackass broke the law and injured her through no fault of her own.

There will be times you have no choice but to be on the road late at night: late work shift, have to drive someone to the emergency room...whatever, cannot be helped. I had to be on the road late at night for just such a reason when I was hit head on by a drunk driver traveling northbound on the southbound lanes of the freeway with no lights on her vehicle on a particularly dark stretch of the freeway. By your family's logic, I shouldn't have been driving home, perfectly sober, late at night so that drunk biatch could nearly kill me. I should have rented a hotel room--every night, five days a week--or slept at my desk so I didn't run into anyone breaking the law. Idiotic logic, don't you think?

It is no different from telling a woman not to wear anything other than baggy jeans and a shapeless top that covers her all the way to her chin when she goes out, and under no circumstances should she consume anything with a drop of alcohol or go out without at least one big, strong male accompanying her. The implication is that if she wears anything that shows a tiny bit of skin or drinks one sip of alcohol while unaccompanied, anything that happens is her own fault. Same thing with your family's "warning": if you drive late at night and get in a wreck, it's your own fault for being on the road because you should know better. It's asinine. Rule of thumb is, if you'd get pissed if a cop or insurance adjuster said it to you, don't farking say it to anyone else. The statement being made regarding driving might make sense when it comes to a 7-11 munchie run, but it has no real practical application beyond that.
 
2013-03-17 03:50:44 PM

Bontesla: Madbassist1: I should be in the kitchen: Madbassist1: Glendale: Popcorn Johnny: How does subby know that justice was served, was he an eyewitness to the events? Fact is innocent people are found guilty and vice versa all the time. Nobody here knows if they're rapists or just kids who got some drunken, consensual pussy.

I don't think it matters because the drunkenness automatically makes it non-consensual by law, or something.

 Males are always responsible for their actions, dumbass. Only females get the free pass.

If a group of females gang raped a teen boy, I'd expect there to be consequences as well.

There is never any excuse to rape, EVER. I don't care how someone is dressed or what they've consumed, don't farking rape. Is that so goddamn hard to understand?

Except I dont think that's what happened. I think she was a willing participant and passed out after the fact. Just my opinion based on what I know. I havent followed it on Nancy Grace or anything.

Citations?


farm5.staticflickr.com
 
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