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(Yahoo)   Justice delivered: two members of the high school football team that is the pride of Steubenville were found guilty of raping a drunken 16-year-old girl   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 772
    More: News, Ohio, found guilty, football team  
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12544 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Mar 2013 at 11:24 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-17 01:57:14 PM  
Get really drunk = Somehow you deserve to be raped

Rape someone = Somehow you deserve to spend a year at summer camp

This is not justice.
 
2013-03-17 01:57:32 PM  

casey17: Trixie212: Polyhazard: Trixie212: jaytkay: Trixie212: Yep. Shame on me. I raised my sons to treat women with respect and I raised my daughters to understand that all boys aren't raised the way their brothers were. I raised all of my kids to understand that if they CHOSE to engage in dangerous behavior, consequences would ensue. Should I have raised them to expect cotton candy and roses from everybody they came in contact with?

It's great that your boys can walk the Earth with confidence because Mom will look on with admiration and approval when they date rape some slut to teach her a lesson.

Because that totally agrees with what I said.

What you SAID is that once a girl become intoxicated, she is just as responsible for being raped as the person who rapes her.

You say your children understand this as well. Your sons believe now that they are 100% responsible for raping a sober girl, but only 50% responsible if she had something to drink.

You are telling them that their own responsibility for rape can be mitigated by the victim's decision to drink.

Spent a lot of time twisting that, didn't you?

What part did Polyhazard twist? That falls in line with everything you've posted. You even said that if the girl had been sober she wouldn't have "shared responsibility" in what happened to her.


Completely missed the part where I said I taught my sons that having any sexual contact with a drunk female is reprehensible.
 
2013-03-17 01:58:16 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: elysive: Oh, so you want to warn women about how males function. You know, I'm quite familiar with how guys like you think. It was no small factor in learning self defense. I'm not one of those looney, drunk in public, risk taking females...but I defend those people's safety. It annoys me when people go out of their way blame them for crimes enacted by real predators.

Words on websites don't defend against rape.  Slacktivist.


Wow, this like the first time youve actually replied to me after ignoring my other replies to your posts...did I say something sexy?

My activism has nothing to do with this website. In fact, to be honest most of it was in college. Would you like to know any other vague facts about me?
 
2013-03-17 01:58:46 PM  

Bontesla: BarkingUnicorn: Bontesla: Rape is NEVER partially the victim's fault.

Every time I read something like this, I wonder why its author is being so helpful to rapists.  Women who think they can do whatever they want guilt-free are easy pickings.

Why do you think blaming rape victims is helpful to women or rape victims?

The only risk factor for being raped is being in the presence of a rapist. Most of the time - the victim isn't aware they're in the presence of a rapist until after the rape.

Wearing frumpy clothes doesn't prevent rape. Traveling in groups doesn't prevent rape. Drinking doesn't prevent rape.

Suggesting that if only this girl remained sober, she wouldn't have been raped is absurd and speculative.

Teaching people that you can avoid rape if you follow these things is incredibly cruel to the victims that have followed all of the rules and still ended up being raped.


I do understand what you are saying, right up until that last sentence.  Statistically speaking, you are less likely to be raped or sexually assaulted if drugs and/or alcohol are not involved.  Probabilities decrease, but never fall to zero.

As a self-defense instructor, it would be patently irresponsible for me to not discuss these facts with the people who come to me for advice and help.  The difference is leaving the judgement factor out of it.  I don't judge a victim, after the fact, for having been intoxicated.  It serves no purpose to do so, and would be cruel and uncaring.

Your statements about what does and doesn't prevent rape is a binary one, and doesn't reflect statistical reality.  More rapes happen in isolation than not. More rapes happen when drugs and alcohol are present (this can vary by culture and extreme circumstance (war for example) I am speaking about American culture right now).  The dressing thing is really complex and difficult to parse, so I will side with you on that.

Pointing out statistical facts to people increases their ability to make  choices for themselves that could keep them out of trouble.  Your last sentence says that I should refrain from that to protect the sensitivities of those who fall into another statistical spectrum (through no fault of there own).  That would be very irresponsible for me as a self-defense instructor.  How I go about that is, of course, very important, and that is where the judgement factor needs to be left out.

When you are talking about helping people, you have the leave the judgement of victims AND the righteous anger out of the equation, because it is not you who is making the choices.  It is them, and people can only make good choices if they have good information.

I am sorry for your pain.  Obviously, as with me, this is a personal issue for you.
 
2013-03-17 01:58:59 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: Of course! All of those nights of roofie-riddled slumber caused when I didn't do proper attending to my drinks!  I should have thought about it!


All that time you spent watching your drink as a teenager could have been better spent doing other things.  I doubt you had much to worry about.
 
2013-03-17 01:59:22 PM  

SubBass49: Get really drunk = Somehow you deserve to be raped

Rape someone = Somehow you deserve to spend a year at summer camp

This is not justice.


I get that logic is difficult if not impossible for you as you consider God Bless America a movie to be idolized.  Deserving to be raped has nothing to do with it.  The expectation of bad things happening when you decide to let Mr. Daniels take the wheel of your consciousness is different from Deserving To Be Raped.
 
2013-03-17 02:01:27 PM  

natmar_76: One year in juvenile detention? That's it?

Our country is farked up.


I wonder what sentence the victim got, being "half responsible" and all.
 
2013-03-17 02:01:50 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: MagSeven: Unless you are intently staring at your drink for the duration of your evening, there is a chance someone can slip something into it after you mix/pour it yourself. Turn your head to talk to a friend and somebody can slip something into it. I had a chance to review some security footage at a bar I used to bartend at after a customer thought she got a mickey. Sure enough she turned her head for about 20 seconds, even had her hand still around the glass and some guy sidled up next to her and his hand went over her glass. Thank God nothing worse actually happened to her that night.

Of course! All of those nights of roofie-riddled slumber caused when I didn't do proper attending to my drinks!  I should have thought about it!

Good of you to make up a nice lie there though.


Lie? Ok man.
/You got me. I fell for the troll bait.
 
2013-03-17 02:01:57 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: SubBass49: InitialCommentGuy: SubBass49: Only to be "gifted" to those that have done the same, and not been properly punished.  But yeah...

Yep.  Eye for an eye justice is a great idea.  I'm guessing you lack depth perception.

Eye-for-an-eye justice which would be completely unnecessary if the RAPIST SCUM got a sentence that was commensurate with the horrific crimes they committed.

If the justice system works, there is no need for my wish to come true.  This is a case that proves that it doesn't work.

It works just as intended in this case.   I apologize that you think that they should serve life sentences or be raped for their crimes.

I also laugh at the people in the thread who believe these guys are facing shower rape due to their crimes.  Football players in juvie are going to be nigh untouchable, but that need for vengeance beyond thought seems popular in your type.


Life sentences?  I never said that.  Raped as punishment?  Sure, would be more appropriate punishment than a year in a lockdown version of summer camp.  Something more appropriate would have been a middle ground though.  Serving until age 18 in a juvenile facility, followed by transfer to an adult facility for a term of 5 years additional, plus lifetime registration as sex offenders.  THAT sentence would seem just.  THAT sentence would have me completely satisfied.  ONE year is a farking joke, and you know it.  They know it too.
 
2013-03-17 02:02:01 PM  

elysive: InitialCommentGuy: elysive: Oh, so you want to warn women about how males function. You know, I'm quite familiar with how guys like you think. It was no small factor in learning self defense. I'm not one of those looney, drunk in public, risk taking females...but I defend those people's safety. It annoys me when people go out of their way blame them for crimes enacted by real predators.

Words on websites don't defend against rape.  Slacktivist.

Wow, this like the first time youve actually replied to me after ignoring my other replies to your posts...did I say something sexy?

My activism has nothing to do with this website. In fact, to be honest most of it was in college. Would you like to know any other vague facts about me?


It's alright.  I mean, not all of us can actually do anything about the issues we decide to froth at the mouth at.  Impotent posting on a forum works for you!
 
2013-03-17 02:03:40 PM  

SubBass49: Life sentences?  I never said that.  Raped as punishment?  Sure, would be more appropriate punishment than a year in a lockdown version of summer camp.  Something more appropriate would have been a middle ground though.  Serving until age 18 in a juvenile facility, followed by transfer to an adult facility for a term of 5 years additional, plus lifetime registration as sex offenders.  THAT sentence would seem just.  THAT sentence would have me completely satisfied.  ONE year is a farking joke, and you know it.  They know it too.



Welcome to sentencing guidelines.  Being fingered while intoxicated in Ohio gets a year.  Want a change?  Talk to your local legislature.
 
2013-03-17 02:05:35 PM  

mikaloyd: [i.imgur.com image 850x725]


Well now... humming a tune... nodding the head and groovin before the verdict.... crying like a biatch after... too little too late for my taste. I hope it was good poontang bro...
 
2013-03-17 02:06:34 PM  
Why would I want to read a fark thread about sex related issues?

I've read enough fark teacher-student threads.
 
2013-03-17 02:06:48 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: SubBass49: Get really drunk = Somehow you deserve to be raped

Rape someone = Somehow you deserve to spend a year at summer camp

This is not justice.

I get that logic is difficult if not impossible for you as you consider God Bless America a movie to be idolized.  Deserving to be raped has nothing to do with it.  The expectation of bad things happening when you decide to let Mr. Daniels take the wheel of your consciousness is different from Deserving To Be Raped.


I don't even idolize GBA.  While it had it's high points, it was also incredibly depressing, and there were no clear heroes.  Every character was flawed.  My desire isn't to see a squad of people going around killing those they disagree with.  My desire is to see ACTUAL justice done.

You know...the victim gets a lifetime of suffering and shame in this case.

The guys that thought it was hilarious get a year of hanging out, followed by getting to go back to what they were doing.  The chances that they ever come to understand how wrong their actions were are pretty slim, given the "punishment."
 
2013-03-17 02:06:49 PM  

Theaetetus: Madbassist1: Lady Beryl Ersatz-Wendigo: Madbassist1: Glendale: Popcorn Johnny: How does subby know that justice was served, was he an eyewitness to the events? Fact is innocent people are found guilty and vice versa all the time. Nobody here knows if they're rapists or just kids who got some drunken, consensual pussy.

I don't think it matters because the drunkenness automatically makes it non-consensual by law, or something.

 Males are always responsible for their actions, dumbass. Only females get the free pass.

Tell me of your homeworld.

Thats the way it is, lady, just because you pretend it isn't, doesnt mean that its not true.

Oh and for more details about the case, including snippets of the 'victim's' behavior

http://www.daytondailynews.com/ap/ap/top-news/judge-to-issue-verdict -i n-ohio-school-rape-case/nWtbH/

Said snippets:
The teenage girl testified Saturday that she could not recall what happened the night of the attack but remembered waking up naked in a strange house after drinking at a party. The girl said she recalled drinking, leaving the party holding hands with Mays and throwing up later. When she woke up, she said she discovered her phone, earrings, shoes, and underwear were missing, she testified.

"It was really scary," she said. "I honestly did not know what to think because I could not remember anything."

The girl said she believed she was assaulted when she later read text messages among friends and saw a photo of herself taken that night, along with a video that made fun of her and the alleged attack. She said she suspected she had been drugged because she couldn't explain being as intoxicated as defense witnesses have said she was.

...  The two girls testified they were angry at the accuser because she was drinking heavily at the party and rolling around on the floor. They said they tried unsuccessfully to get her to stop drinking.

Yeah, clearly your quotes around "victim" are warranted, and you're not a pro-rape sociopath.

/oh, wa ...


LOL I see you left out the parts that didnt bolster your case. Like tha part where her friends were angry and disgusted with her drinking and acting like a whore, the parts where they begged her to stop and go home. The part where she was an active participant in texts the next day (until she found out there were pictures). Its convienient to say she doesnt remember. Too bad that wont help the boys.

And you close with a hyperbolic attack on my psychological health. Good for you, hippie. I'm sure one of the girls in this thread will sleep with ya.
 
2013-03-17 02:08:05 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: SubBass49: Life sentences?  I never said that.  Raped as punishment?  Sure, would be more appropriate punishment than a year in a lockdown version of summer camp.  Something more appropriate would have been a middle ground though.  Serving until age 18 in a juvenile facility, followed by transfer to an adult facility for a term of 5 years additional, plus lifetime registration as sex offenders.  THAT sentence would seem just.  THAT sentence would have me completely satisfied.  ONE year is a farking joke, and you know it.  They know it too.


Welcome to sentencing guidelines.  Being fingered while intoxicated in Ohio gets a year.  Want a change?  Talk to your local legislature.


How about transmission of child-porn via cell phones?

How about rape of a minor?
 
2013-03-17 02:08:53 PM  

SubBass49: I don't even idolize GBA.  While it had it's high points, it was also incredibly depressing, and there were no clear heroes.  Every character was flawed.  My desire isn't to see a squad of people going around killing those they disagree with.  My desire is to see ACTUAL justice done.

You know...the victim gets a lifetime of suffering and shame in this case.

The guys that thought it was hilarious get a year of hanging out, followed by getting to go back to what they were doing.  The chances that they ever come to understand how wrong their actions were are pretty slim, given the "punishment."


Or she could just take the time to realize that she went through trauma and deal with it.
 
2013-03-17 02:09:38 PM  

SubBass49: Raped as punishment?  Sure, would be more appropriate punishment than a year in a lockdown version of summer camp.


Rape is never appropriate, whether its happening to teenage girls or prisoners. "When is it morally permissible to rape someone" should be a question that is only ever answered with "never."
 
2013-03-17 02:09:42 PM  

Quigs: Lady Indica: aedude01: ha-ha-guy: Lady Indica: They could have been charged with kidnapping (they moved the victim), criminal conspiracy, etc.

You can't convict on charges the prosecutors didn't file...

If the prosecutor didn't file these charges, in theory couldn't he file them now?  It wouldn't be double jeopardy since kidnapping is a completely different crime.

Yup, in theory. But it won't happen. You might see a criminal conspiracy case (based on the name 'rape crew' and the attempted intimidation and cover up that followed), but I doubt it. Any additional justice will probably come in the form of civil judgments against those involved. I wonder how much of it will be covered by various home owner insurance policies.

You can see in this very thread, despite the abundance of evidence in this case to rape, how many rape apologists there are. How many who say the victim is somehow responsible. Those are the type of people too stupid to get out of jury duty adjudicating these cases.

You're the only person I've got favorited. You're a generally awesome person, so I feel the need to step up here.

When someone gets behind the wheel of a car with alcohol in their system, and then gets involved in a traffic accident, no matter who was actually at fault, the drunk driver is recorded as being at fault. These are matters of life and death, and the person who chose to drink and do something dangerous is always at fault.

The guys who raped this girl are assholes, and I'd send them to the Wall, but I don't get how people can say that the girl is absolved of all responsibility, when the precedence is the drunk person is always responsible for what happens to themselves and others.


Woah, bro you can't award me the gold medal for winning and then make a post like this.  I ain't trying to share my championship of common sense.
 
2013-03-17 02:09:49 PM  
I wonder how the 'it doesn't count as rape if the victim was drunk' argument will change if and when those spiky Rapex condom thingies make it Stateside. If a girl wants to get her booze on without non-consensual mating, she can just pop one in and go out for a party. Any guys decide "ooh, fresh unconscious meat," they get lacerations and a trip to the ER.

Technically, a tampon with a small pouch of indelible dye would be equally effective. Any girl with no plans of farking would have a pretty darn good defense against a rapist at that point.

Screwing is like driving. Don't ever do it drunk or let drunk people do it to you.
 
2013-03-17 02:10:40 PM  

SubBass49: InitialCommentGuy: SubBass49: Life sentences?  I never said that.  Raped as punishment?  Sure, would be more appropriate punishment than a year in a lockdown version of summer camp.  Something more appropriate would have been a middle ground though.  Serving until age 18 in a juvenile facility, followed by transfer to an adult facility for a term of 5 years additional, plus lifetime registration as sex offenders.  THAT sentence would seem just.  THAT sentence would have me completely satisfied.  ONE year is a farking joke, and you know it.  They know it too.


Welcome to sentencing guidelines.  Being fingered while intoxicated in Ohio gets a year.  Want a change?  Talk to your local legislature.

How about transmission of child-porn via cell phones?

How about rape of a minor?


So we're going to choose to go with rape of a minor by a minor now?

And yeah, we can set some precedence on child porn via cell phones.  Then we also need to start prosecuting any teenager found with nude selfies for the same offense.
 
2013-03-17 02:10:49 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: SubBass49: I don't even idolize GBA.  While it had it's high points, it was also incredibly depressing, and there were no clear heroes.  Every character was flawed.  My desire isn't to see a squad of people going around killing those they disagree with.  My desire is to see ACTUAL justice done.

You know...the victim gets a lifetime of suffering and shame in this case.

The guys that thought it was hilarious get a year of hanging out, followed by getting to go back to what they were doing.  The chances that they ever come to understand how wrong their actions were are pretty slim, given the "punishment."

Or she could just take the time to realize that she went through trauma and deal with it.


Pretty sure she will be doing that no matter what.
 
2013-03-17 02:12:15 PM  

SpiderQueenDemon: I wonder how the 'it doesn't count as rape if the victim was drunk' argument will change if and when those spiky Rapex condom thingies make it Stateside. If a girl wants to get her booze on without non-consensual mating, she can just pop one in and go out for a party. Any guys decide "ooh, fresh unconscious meat," they get lacerations and a trip to the ER.

Technically, a tampon with a small pouch of indelible dye would be equally effective. Any girl with no plans of farking would have a pretty darn good defense against a rapist at that point.

Screwing is like driving. Don't ever do it drunk or let drunk people do it to you.


THIS.  Too bad they don't already have them here.  THAT would have been great justice.
 
2013-03-17 02:12:48 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: Of course.  Anonymous strikes and forces the hand on a case of digital manipulation while intoxicated.

Truly justice vengeance whining until things take their course then taking credit for great social justice has been served by the Internet community.


Well, actually, it was multiple petitions from various groups. No one was going to get charged until then. And Anonymous  did start the trend, even if they weren't the force behind the petitions created. Whether or not they're idiot tweens doesn't negate what they did--in our system, football stars are only charged with crimes when the rest of society shames the DA into doing it, and Anon started that. They damn well deserve credit.

/You really need to look at what the rest of the internet's doing more often, there was substantial evidence that the DA in Steubenville was trying to smooth the whole thing over. That's how our system works; we protect society's 'heroes' from consequences at all times. Especially from a 'moral lapse' like rape.
 
2013-03-17 02:13:09 PM  

iaazathot: Pretty sure she will be doing that no matter what


Not necessarily.  The perpetuation of victimhood is a far more safe, fulfilling, and lucrative venture than going the difficult route of recovering from your trauma.  How is she going to go on the lecture circuit and rake in money from groups if she actually learns to cope with her pain?  We need tears and mental anguish to know that rape is wrong.
 
2013-03-17 02:14:27 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: SubBass49: InitialCommentGuy: SubBass49: Life sentences?  I never said that.  Raped as punishment?  Sure, would be more appropriate punishment than a year in a lockdown version of summer camp.  Something more appropriate would have been a middle ground though.  Serving until age 18 in a juvenile facility, followed by transfer to an adult facility for a term of 5 years additional, plus lifetime registration as sex offenders.  THAT sentence would seem just.  THAT sentence would have me completely satisfied.  ONE year is a farking joke, and you know it.  They know it too.


Welcome to sentencing guidelines.  Being fingered while intoxicated in Ohio gets a year.  Want a change?  Talk to your local legislature.

How about transmission of child-porn via cell phones?

How about rape of a minor?

1. So we're going to choose to go with rape of a minor by a minor now?

2. And yeah, we can set some precedence on child porn via cell phones.  Then we also need to start prosecuting any teenager found with nude selfies for the same offense.


1. Yes.

2. These weren't selfies.  These were pics of her passed out unconscious while two guys raped her and jizzed on her.  Quite different.  If you dont' see that, then I'm guessing you don't see much.
 
2013-03-17 02:14:32 PM  

PsiChick: Well, actually, it was multiple petitions from various groups. No one was going to get charged until then. And Anonymous  did start the trend, even if they weren't the force behind the petitions created. Whether or not they're idiot tweens doesn't negate what they did--in our system, football stars are only charged with crimes when the rest of society shames the DA into doing it, and Anon started that. They damn well deserve credit.


Yep.  Guy Fawkes masks and rhythmic chanting did a lot for this case.
 
2013-03-17 02:15:06 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: iaazathot: Pretty sure she will be doing that no matter what

Not necessarily.  The perpetuation of victimhood is a far more safe, fulfilling, and lucrative venture than going the difficult route of recovering from your trauma.  How is she going to go on the lecture circuit and rake in money from groups if she actually learns to cope with her pain?  We need tears and mental anguish to know that rape is wrong.


You're an idiot.
 
2013-03-17 02:15:40 PM  

Bontesla: oukewldave: Rape is never OK, but do we know this was actually rape?  They say she was drunk, but where the guys drunk too?  If they were, I don't understand how they can be considered rapists, besides the fact they are male and that's how our society is.  Logically, if everyone was equally drunk, they could say she raped both of them...

Apparently everyone knew it was rape. Kids attending the various parties tweeted about how Rape Me by Nirvana was the song of the night.

At one point - the victim was so disoriented that she was carried in and out of the various parties. Reports were that the boys were showing her off - lifting up her skirt and touching her (some of this photographed) while she was unconscious.


That $#@!& POS Richmond also was photographed lifting up the victim's top and exposing her breasts to others.  And some of the others involved (who so far have gotten away with their crimes) also urinated on her.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2256386/Steubenville-rape-ca se -Video-shows-group-high-school-students-laughing-girls-ordeal.html

What those assholes did to her WAS brutal, despite what some here think. It's too bad that they will probably only do a year in juvie. The victim is going to have to deal with the fallout from this for the rest of her life.
 
2013-03-17 02:15:50 PM  

Quigs: Lady Indica: aedude01: ha-ha-guy: Lady Indica: They could have been charged with kidnapping (they moved the victim), criminal conspiracy, etc.

You can't convict on charges the prosecutors didn't file...

If the prosecutor didn't file these charges, in theory couldn't he file them now?  It wouldn't be double jeopardy since kidnapping is a completely different crime.

Yup, in theory. But it won't happen. You might see a criminal conspiracy case (based on the name 'rape crew' and the attempted intimidation and cover up that followed), but I doubt it. Any additional justice will probably come in the form of civil judgments against those involved. I wonder how much of it will be covered by various home owner insurance policies.

You can see in this very thread, despite the abundance of evidence in this case to rape, how many rape apologists there are. How many who say the victim is somehow responsible. Those are the type of people too stupid to get out of jury duty adjudicating these cases.

You're the only person I've got favorited. You're a generally awesome person, so I feel the need to step up here.

When someone gets behind the wheel of a car with alcohol in their system, and then gets involved in a traffic accident, no matter who was actually at fault, the drunk driver is recorded as being at fault. These are matters of life and death, and the person who chose to drink and do something dangerous is always at fault.

The guys who raped this girl are assholes, and I'd send them to the Wall, but I don't get how people can say that the girl is absolved of all responsibility, when the precedence is the drunk person is always responsible for what happens to themselves and others.


Oof. I've not plonked Trixie, even though I think she's pretty horrible with the shiat she's saying, because I think she's at least being honest with her opinion/perspective and I understand the seed of it. Same here (though you are not being horrible) with yours. This thread actually has me worked up, but this deserves a response.

This is going to be very long. Feel free to pass on by others not interested.

It's a very normal, common, human reaction for us to look at dangerous and bad situations that have happened to others, and examine WHY it happened and HOW we can make sure it doesn't happen to us. This is wiring. Unfortunately because we also tend to retroactively think and explain such wiring, we come to shiatty conclusions. We look at a woman raped in an alley. She was dressed modest as a nun, walking down the street in broad daylight. No one (rational and sane) is gonna argue for the rapist. But, we will actively look for reasons it happened. Because if it's just lightning bolt out of the blue...it could happen to YOU, or your daughter/mother/sister/whatever. So we latch on to things that we believe we can control. Oh, she was in a bad neighborhood. One shouldn't walk in bad neighborhoods alone. This can easily start becoming, 'She shouldn't have walked in a bad neighborhood alone. One should know better' which places accountability on the victim. That's the bad cognitive leap, do you see what I'm saying?

Additionally this overactive radar doesn't work well. We *know* this (scientifically). But it's bad wiring that serves a ghastly purpose.

You're walking down the street. You see a group of young men coming towards you. They look like mormon missionaries. You're probably not too worried. (I wouldn't be either). Same thing, but they look like a group of street hoodlums. You're worried. Probably scared. You're probably thinking of escapes. Looking around for other people.

If your assumption about those young men is WRONG (and it usually will be in life), then taking certain actions (such as crossing the street, entering a shop, dialing 9-1 on your phone with the finger lightly on that last '1'...) have no adverse consequence. In fact, you may wrongly attribute these actions as having helped you in a situation where you were in no actual danger.

Ignoring these false warnings though, can have dire consequences. We're even taught as children to PAY ATTENTION to these warnings. 'Trust your gut instinct' is something everyone heard as a kid, in one form or another.

And then we overly trust these things to keep us safe. And in order to maintain that belief (not consciously, no one is twisting a mustache going mwhahaha, this is all unconsciously done) we examine victims in order to figure out things they didn't do that we WOULD or COULD do. This is the evolution of victim blame.

NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE is arguing that it's a good idea to get publicly intoxicated. It's just not. But it is fun. And it is something most people do at one point in their lives. We have to take accountability for our own actions, and when we're teenagers and young adults we're experimenting with a lot of new situations. And we make a lot of bad decisions.

Yet, it's interesting isn't it that when we see a story about a drunk driver killing a bunch of people...that we don't blame the people they victimize in the same manner. We don't say 'well they should have known better than to be on the road at that hour, lol'. We don't hear a mother claiming that if her daughter were crippled in a wreck, that she'd be lecturing her on her personal responsibility.

That's where moralistic arrogance creeps in. Dressing 'slutty'. Drinking! Cavorting with males at parties! Going to a man's hotel room alone, what WAS she thinking?! So not only are we obsessively radaring WHY this won't happen to us, but ways in which they were at fault.

I'm a good person, and my children are good people whom I've taught these values to, therefore this can't and won't happen to US.

Again, an issue I'm not dispassionate about. This is an issue that's emotionally charged for most people.

The bottom line ultimately is this; why does it matter WHY she became unconscious. If she had a medical condition which was not previously known, that caused her to collapse on a couch...and then all this shiat happened doesn't make her any more, or any less a victim. It doesn't make a damn bit of difference.
 
2013-03-17 02:16:02 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: iaazathot: Pretty sure she will be doing that no matter what

Not necessarily.  The perpetuation of victimhood is a far more safe, fulfilling, and lucrative venture than going the difficult route of recovering from your trauma.  How is she going to go on the lecture circuit and rake in money from groups if she actually learns to cope with her pain?  We need tears and mental anguish to know that rape is wrong.


Have you ever known a girl that was a victim of rape?  I have.  I knew several in high school, and I know a few now as adults.  It's pretty hard to form a trusting relationship after something like that, and they suffer flashbacks and mood swings.  But I forgot, you're totally the expert.
 
2013-03-17 02:17:56 PM  
SubBass49:

1. Yes.

Oooh, this will be a fun can of worms.  Rather than actually treating it as a crime of equals we can tack additional punishment because of the shared status.  The precedent would set so many lawyer's billable hour sense a'tingle that we may have to swab out the Bar Association due to various bodily fluids.

2. These weren't selfies.  These were pics of her passed out unconscious while two guys raped her and jizzed on her.  Quite different.  If you dont' see that, then I'm guessing you don't see much.

Doesn't matter.  Our laws on child pornography are pretty clear cut.  Again, if you wish to change them, speak to your legislator... Criminalizing one form while ignoring another is going to cause plenty of headaches.  But again, you don't seem to be very able to do the whole logic thing.
 
2013-03-17 02:18:41 PM  

Trixie212: Tak the Hideous New Girl: I have sons and I gave daughters and I've tried to imagine how I would feel if it was any of my kids who were involved in this. My opinion is not going to be popular but I really don't care. Had that been my daughter, I would have held her just as responsible for what happened to her as I would have the guys. I'm not saying that I wouldn't have understood her being hurt and upset and I know she would have had to deal with the consequences for a long time.

See Trixie, this is why people think you are a horrible person (for the record I think you are a horrible person too).

You have a crying, traumatized girl (your daughter!) who's worried that she got a disease or is pregnant, is terrified that there pictures of her shame are all over Twitter or Facebook (something I did not have to worry about back in the dinosaur age, thank goodness), and your reaction is to tell your daughter, "Too bad, so sad, you should have made better choices."

I already understood what people thought. You're entitled to feel the way you do. I've been on Fark for a number of years and have taken exception to a lot of things people have said but I've never told anyone they were a horrible person.


I am being unfair to you. There are a whole lot of horrible people on this thread. You're being singled out because you'd heap shame on your own daughter.

Let's call out some other horrible people:

Popcorn Johnny - biatch probably wanted it.
hasy ambush - biatchez be lyin'
captainmaxthedestroyer - We can't help it! Men are slaves to their genitalia! If my dick wants it, biatchez better watch out!
Madbassist1 - Hey biatchez, take some responsibility when some guy(s) rapes your drunk, passed out ass and posts it all over the internet!
Initial Comment Guy - Rape, schmape, Anonymous convicted these guys and biatch probably wanted her unconscious fingerbang posted all over the internet anyway. biatchez are like that, amiright?
skwerl - I don't know nothin' but biatch probably ruined those two nice boys life over nothing.
 
2013-03-17 02:19:08 PM  

Lady Indica: Quigs: Lady Indica: aedude01: ha-ha-guy: Lady Indica: They could have been charged with kidnapping (they moved the victim), criminal conspiracy, etc.

You can't convict on charges the prosecutors didn't file...

If the prosecutor didn't file these charges, in theory couldn't he file them now?  It wouldn't be double jeopardy since kidnapping is a completely different crime.

Yup, in theory. But it won't happen. You might see a criminal conspiracy case (based on the name 'rape crew' and the attempted intimidation and cover up that followed), but I doubt it. Any additional justice will probably come in the form of civil judgments against those involved. I wonder how much of it will be covered by various home owner insurance policies.

You can see in this very thread, despite the abundance of evidence in this case to rape, how many rape apologists there are. How many who say the victim is somehow responsible. Those are the type of people too stupid to get out of jury duty adjudicating these cases.

You're the only person I've got favorited. You're a generally awesome person, so I feel the need to step up here.

When someone gets behind the wheel of a car with alcohol in their system, and then gets involved in a traffic accident, no matter who was actually at fault, the drunk driver is recorded as being at fault. These are matters of life and death, and the person who chose to drink and do something dangerous is always at fault.

The guys who raped this girl are assholes, and I'd send them to the Wall, but I don't get how people can say that the girl is absolved of all responsibility, when the precedence is the drunk person is always responsible for what happens to themselves and others.

Oof. I've not plonked Trixie, even though I think she's pretty horrible with the shiat she's saying, because I think she's at least being honest with her opinion/perspective and I understand the seed of it. Same here (though you are not being horrible) with yours. This thread actually h ...


Well said...
 
2013-03-17 02:19:52 PM  
SubBass49:

Have you ever known a girl that was a victim of rape?  I have.  I knew several in high school, and I know a few now as adults.  It's pretty hard to form a trusting relationship after something like that, and they suffer flashbacks and mood swings.  But I forgot, you're totally the expert.

Hard to flashback to a blackout.  And what you're describing is unhandled psychological trauma... You know, what I was discussing.  Rape isn't unique in its expression of PTSD in that way, just a different configuration of challenges.
 
2013-03-17 02:19:57 PM  
Perhaps folks would be less whimsical about all of this is she has died and they had kept going all schoolboy on her.

If your classmate is impaired, you protect them.

Period.
 
2013-03-17 02:19:59 PM  

SubBass49: InitialCommentGuy: SubBass49: Life sentences?  I never said that.  Raped as punishment?  Sure, would be more appropriate punishment than a year in a lockdown version of summer camp.  Something more appropriate would have been a middle ground though.  Serving until age 18 in a juvenile facility, followed by transfer to an adult facility for a term of 5 years additional, plus lifetime registration as sex offenders.  THAT sentence would seem just.  THAT sentence would have me completely satisfied.  ONE year is a farking joke, and you know it.  They know it too.


Welcome to sentencing guidelines.  Being fingered while intoxicated in Ohio gets a year.  Want a change?  Talk to your local legislature.

How about transmission of child-porn via cell phones?



One of the boys got an additional year added onto his sentence for that.
 
2013-03-17 02:20:00 PM  
You know, sometimes you have to convince a girl that she really wants to do it. She'll play like she doesn't, and after a few hours of drinking and 4play, she finally loosens up and enjoys herself. Then the next day after the alcohol has worn off, all of her sick and twisted repressive personality traits return in full force, and she starts screaming RAEP to make herself feel less guilty for having FINALLY stopped being a gold digging prick tease and put out for a cool, good looking guy. Given this common scenario, I have to wonder how many guys get unfairly blamed for some crazy chick's personal Daddy issues.

/just sayin, since I hate self-righteous idiots wielding pitchforks
 
2013-03-17 02:20:08 PM  

iaazathot: Bontesla: BarkingUnicorn: Bontesla: Rape is NEVER partially the victim's fault.

Every time I read something like this, I wonder why its author is being so helpful to rapists.  Women who think they can do whatever they want guilt-free are easy pickings.

Why do you think blaming rape victims is helpful to women or rape victims?

The only risk factor for being raped is being in the presence of a rapist. Most of the time - the victim isn't aware they're in the presence of a rapist until after the rape.

Wearing frumpy clothes doesn't prevent rape. Traveling in groups doesn't prevent rape. Drinking doesn't prevent rape.

Suggesting that if only this girl remained sober, she wouldn't have been raped is absurd and speculative.

Teaching people that you can avoid rape if you follow these things is incredibly cruel to the victims that have followed all of the rules and still ended up being raped.

I do understand what you are saying, right up until that last sentence.  Statistically speaking, you are less likely to be raped or sexually assaulted if drugs and/or alcohol are not involved.  Probabilities decrease, but never fall to zero.

As a self-defense instructor, it would be patently irresponsible for me to not discuss these facts with the people who come to me for advice and help.  The difference is leaving the judgement factor out of it.  I don't judge a victim, after the fact, for having been intoxicated.  It serves no purpose to do so, and would be cruel and uncaring.

Your statements about what does and doesn't prevent rape is a binary one, and doesn't reflect statistical reality.  More rapes happen in isolation than not. More rapes happen when drugs and alcohol are present (this can vary by culture and extreme circumstance (war for example) I am speaking about American culture right now).  The dressing thing is really complex and difficult to parse, so I will side with you on that.

Pointing out statistical facts to people increases their ability to make  choices f ...


As I've said - there's a difference between engaging in cautionary behavior and assuming responsibility for not engaging in cautionary behavior.

Sure, drinking could lower risk of rape depending on the type of rapist you're unwittingly in the presence of. But unless you know what type of rapist you're in the presence of - you really have no idea which behaviors you're engaging in that increase your type of risk. What if his trigger is you reminding him of his mother? What if he stalks his prey first? No. Drinking has very little influence on whether or not you're going to be raped.

That's my point. Pretending that there's this formula that exists in which if you follow this exactly - you can prevent your own rape is cruel and unfair to victims who do follow the guidelines but still can't prevent their own rape.

There's nothing wrong with taking precautions. In fact - everyone should be taught what appropriate precautions are and how to utilize them. But let's not pretend that these precautions are guarantees and let's not insult victims by suggesting that they could have prevented their own rapes if only...

It's also ridiculous to assume these precautions are innate. They're taught. We teach people how to better defend themselves. Not having that knowledge doesn't mean the victims are responsible for what happens to them when they're unconscious.
 
2013-03-17 02:20:17 PM  

Lorelle: Bontesla: oukewldave: Rape is never OK, but do we know this was actually rape?  They say she was drunk, but where the guys drunk too?  If they were, I don't understand how they can be considered rapists, besides the fact they are male and that's how our society is.  Logically, if everyone was equally drunk, they could say she raped both of them...

Apparently everyone knew it was rape. Kids attending the various parties tweeted about how Rape Me by Nirvana was the song of the night.

At one point - the victim was so disoriented that she was carried in and out of the various parties. Reports were that the boys were showing her off - lifting up her skirt and touching her (some of this photographed) while she was unconscious.

That $#@!& POS Richmond also was photographed lifting up the victim's top and exposing her breasts to others.  And some of the others involved (who so far have gotten away with their crimes) also urinated on her.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2256386/Steubenville-rape-ca se -Video-shows-group-high-school-students-laughing-girls-ordeal.html

What those assholes did to her WAS brutal, despite what some here think. It's too bad that they will probably only do a year in juvie. The victim is going to have to deal with the fallout from this for the rest of her life.


Not that it matters considering what WAS done to her but I understood the news to say that no one urinated on her.
 
2013-03-17 02:20:31 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: PsiChick: Well, actually, it was multiple petitions from various groups. No one was going to get charged until then. And Anonymous  did start the trend, even if they weren't the force behind the petitions created. Whether or not they're idiot tweens doesn't negate what they did--in our system, football stars are only charged with crimes when the rest of society shames the DA into doing it, and Anon started that. They damn well deserve credit.

Yep.  Guy Fawkes masks and rhythmic chanting did a lot for this case.


Going on the internet and raising a stink so various groups knew to form petitions did, actually...
 
2013-03-17 02:20:37 PM  

captainmaxthedestroyer: Quigs: Lady Indica: aedude01: ha-ha-guy: Lady Indica: They could have been charged with kidnapping (they moved the victim), criminal conspiracy, etc.

You can't convict on charges the prosecutors didn't file...

If the prosecutor didn't file these charges, in theory couldn't he file them now?  It wouldn't be double jeopardy since kidnapping is a completely different crime.

Yup, in theory. But it won't happen. You might see a criminal conspiracy case (based on the name 'rape crew' and the attempted intimidation and cover up that followed), but I doubt it. Any additional justice will probably come in the form of civil judgments against those involved. I wonder how much of it will be covered by various home owner insurance policies.

You can see in this very thread, despite the abundance of evidence in this case to rape, how many rape apologists there are. How many who say the victim is somehow responsible. Those are the type of people too stupid to get out of jury duty adjudicating these cases.

You're the only person I've got favorited. You're a generally awesome person, so I feel the need to step up here.

When someone gets behind the wheel of a car with alcohol in their system, and then gets involved in a traffic accident, no matter who was actually at fault, the drunk driver is recorded as being at fault. These are matters of life and death, and the person who chose to drink and do something dangerous is always at fault.

The guys who raped this girl are assholes, and I'd send them to the Wall, but I don't get how people can say that the girl is absolved of all responsibility, when the precedence is the drunk person is always responsible for what happens to themselves and others.

Woah, bro you can't award me the gold medal for winning and then make a post like this.  I ain't trying to share my championship of common sense.


Hey, my personal beliefs are that each case should be taken on it's own merits regardless of booze in the system. I'm just saying the law/the society who agrees with the law are all saying the person who drinks is at fault, even if there's a death... except if it's rape, because we said so.
 
2013-03-17 02:21:52 PM  

SubBass49: InitialCommentGuy: SubBass49: Get really drunk = Somehow you deserve to be raped

Rape someone = Somehow you deserve to spend a year at summer camp

This is not justice.

I get that logic is difficult if not impossible for you as you consider God Bless America a movie to be idolized.  Deserving to be raped has nothing to do with it.  The expectation of bad things happening when you decide to let Mr. Daniels take the wheel of your consciousness is different from Deserving To Be Raped.

I don't even idolize GBA.  While it had it's high points, it was also incredibly depressing, and there were no clear heroes.  Every character was flawed.  My desire isn't to see a squad of people going around killing those they disagree with.  My desire is to see ACTUAL justice done.

You know...the victim gets a lifetime of suffering and shame in this case.

The guys that thought it was hilarious get a year of hanging out, followed by getting to go back to what they were doing.  The chances that they ever come to understand how wrong their actions were are pretty slim, given the "punishment."


They've named themselves the Rape Squad.

What are the odds that this is the only rape victim?
 
2013-03-17 02:22:07 PM  
Their defense was "she didn't say no".  Didn't anyone explain to these assholes that when a girl is that drunk, that she can't give consent?  Even if she had drunkenly said, "yes", she still can not give consent.  Also, she was 16, so probably can't give consent even if sober (not sure of that state's laws on that).

This simple thing should be part of sex education.  IF SHE IS DRUNK SHE CAN NOT GIVE CONSENT.  How farking hard is this to understand?

I bet that town is going to make that poor girl's life miserable now.  Assholes.
 
2013-03-17 02:23:06 PM  

tirob: SubBass49: InitialCommentGuy: SubBass49: Life sentences?  I never said that.  Raped as punishment?  Sure, would be more appropriate punishment than a year in a lockdown version of summer camp.  Something more appropriate would have been a middle ground though.  Serving until age 18 in a juvenile facility, followed by transfer to an adult facility for a term of 5 years additional, plus lifetime registration as sex offenders.  THAT sentence would seem just.  THAT sentence would have me completely satisfied.  ONE year is a farking joke, and you know it.  They know it too.


Welcome to sentencing guidelines.  Being fingered while intoxicated in Ohio gets a year.  Want a change?  Talk to your local legislature.

How about transmission of child-porn via cell phones?


One of the boys got an additional year added onto his sentence for that.


As far as I understood initial reports, he wasn't the only one "enjoying" the pics though.  Sure, he's the only one being punished.
 
2013-03-17 02:23:10 PM  

Trixie212: Lorelle: Bontesla: oukewldave: Rape is never OK, but do we know this was actually rape?  They say she was drunk, but where the guys drunk too?  If they were, I don't understand how they can be considered rapists, besides the fact they are male and that's how our society is.  Logically, if everyone was equally drunk, they could say she raped both of them...

Apparently everyone knew it was rape. Kids attending the various parties tweeted about how Rape Me by Nirvana was the song of the night.

At one point - the victim was so disoriented that she was carried in and out of the various parties. Reports were that the boys were showing her off - lifting up her skirt and touching her (some of this photographed) while she was unconscious.

That $#@!& POS Richmond also was photographed lifting up the victim's top and exposing her breasts to others.  And some of the others involved (who so far have gotten away with their crimes) also urinated on her.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2256386/Steubenville-rape-ca se -Video-shows-group-high-school-students-laughing-girls-ordeal.html

What those assholes did to her WAS brutal, despite what some here think. It's too bad that they will probably only do a year in juvie. The victim is going to have to deal with the fallout from this for the rest of her life.

Not that it matters considering what WAS done to her but I understood the news to say that no one urinated on her.


Oh, no one peed on her? Well damn, i change my whole take on this. I guess she should just get over it.
 
2013-03-17 02:23:51 PM  

Bontesla: They've named themselves the Rape Squad.

What are the odds that this is the only rape victim?


Rape Squad sounds a little first timey.

Usually you want something with a bit more pomp and circumstance when forming a group centered around sex crimes.  Like The Catholic Church.

Do Rape Squad members get special hats?
 
2013-03-17 02:24:44 PM  

Tak the Hideous New Girl: Trixie212: Tak the Hideous New Girl: I have sons and I gave daughters and I've tried to imagine how I would feel if it was any of my kids who were involved in this. My opinion is not going to be popular but I really don't care. Had that been my daughter, I would have held her just as responsible for what happened to her as I would have the guys. I'm not saying that I wouldn't have understood her being hurt and upset and I know she would have had to deal with the consequences for a long time.

See Trixie, this is why people think you are a horrible person (for the record I think you are a horrible person too).

You have a crying, traumatized girl (your daughter!) who's worried that she got a disease or is pregnant, is terrified that there pictures of her shame are all over Twitter or Facebook (something I did not have to worry about back in the dinosaur age, thank goodness), and your reaction is to tell your daughter, "Too bad, so sad, you should have made better choices."

I already understood what people thought. You're entitled to feel the way you do. I've been on Fark for a number of years and have taken exception to a lot of things people have said but I've never told anyone they were a horrible person.

I am being unfair to you. There are a whole lot of horrible people on this thread. You're being singled out because you'd heap shame on your own daughter.

Let's call out some other horrible people:

Popcorn Johnny - biatch probably wanted it.
hasy ambush - biatchez be lyin'
captainmaxthedestroyer - We can't help it! Men are slaves to their genitalia! If my dick wants it, biatchez better watch out!
Madbassist1 - Hey biatchez, take some responsibility when some guy(s) rapes your drunk, passed out ass and posts it all over the internet!
Initial Comment Guy - Rape, schmape, Anonymous convicted these guys and biatch probably wanted her unconscious fingerbang posted all over the internet anyway. biatchez are like that, amiright?
skwerl - I don't know nothin' but biat ...


This list makes me want to hit on you until I can propose consensual sex, which you will then reject.
 
2013-03-17 02:25:00 PM  

Quigs: I'm just saying the law/the society who agrees with the law are all saying the person who drinks is at fault, even if there's a death... except if it's rape, because we said so.


If you drink and pass out you're guilty of being drunk in public (if you're in public).  If someone comes along and decides that it would be hilarious to put their fingers inside you, that's rape, even if they're drunk too.

Not sure what the confusion here is.
 
2013-03-17 02:25:27 PM  
SubBass49:
As far as I understood initial reports, he wasn't the only one "enjoying" the pics though.  Sure, he's the only one being punished.

Because the punishment was for distribution.  If we start going into possession by teenagers we open up that can of worms we were discussing, especially considering the media allows for unsolicited procurement.

Logic, meet SubBass49.
 
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