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(Yahoo)   Justice delivered: two members of the high school football team that is the pride of Steubenville were found guilty of raping a drunken 16-year-old girl   (news.yahoo.com ) divider line
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12568 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Mar 2013 at 11:24 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-17 12:43:24 PM  

captainmaxthedestroyer: Theaetetus: captainmaxthedestroyer: yelmrog: captainmaxthedestroyer: Perhaps the underage retarded girl who got black-out drunk in an unsafe environment learned her lesson as well?

Probably not.

She was totally asking for it, right?

Not saying that.  And I'm not saying that rape isn't wrong or even that it wasn't rape in this case.  It appears it was.

I'm saying that if you get shiat-faced and pass out face down, ass up, there's a solid chance that something bad is going to happen to you.

If you get shiat-faced and get behind the wheel, there's a solid chance that something bad is going to happen to you.

If you get shiat-faced at a bar and start talking shiat to somebody, there is a solid chance that something bad is going to happen to you.

Why the passive voice? "Something bad is going to happen to you"? With drunk driving, there's a chance you could fall asleep and veer off the road and hit a tree, sure. There's no other actor involved, but what about the other two? Why try to hide the fact that there's an affirmative actor, a rapist, behind this vague "something bad is going to happen" as if it's a force of nature or a statistical likelihood, rather than a criminal?  Isn't your very language attempting to remove blame from the rapist?

You're way off base here.

What the fark is an affirmative actor?


Hi, welcome to English 101. Today, we'll talk about the difference between passive voice, in which an actor is implied, and active voice, in which an actor is explicitly present and acts. For example...
Passive voice: "I'm saying that if you get shiat-faced and pass out face down, ass up, there's a solid chance that something bad is going to happen to you."
Active voice: "I'm saying that if you get shiat-faced and pass out face down, ass up, there's a solid chance that a rapist will rape you."

Notice the difference? In one, there's a rapist who rapes, and in the other, something "happens" to the subject.

Now, why is this important? Because with passive voice, the sentence only includes the subject or victim... meaning that you imply that only the victim has any control over the rape "happening". With active voice, we recognize instead that there's another person, the rapist, who really is the one with control over whether rape occurs or not.

More importantly, it destroys the logic of the sentence - if there's a rapist who wants to rape you, it's irrelevant whether you're shiat-faced and passed out. Those only matter for whether some jackasses think you deserved it or not.

That was our class for today. I hope you took notes, because there will be a test tomorrow.

In no way did I denounce the guilty for giving in to their temptation.

No, you explicitly didn't mention the existence of the guilty party.
Plus, "giving in to their temptation" attempts to relieve them of blame. It wasn't their fault, they just have weak will! Nice.
 
2013-03-17 12:43:27 PM  

Trixie212: adamgreeney: Trixie212: adamgreeney: Trixie212: You're allowed to be disgusted. Why do you ignore the fact that I've said they had no right to touch her and are guilty. That doesn't negate the fact that she shares some responsibility.

/don't care if you agree or understand

Saying they had no right to touch her, but she's somehow responsible are TOTALLY conflicting statements. If they had no right, then there isn't any blame to place on her. If she was "asking for it," then that absolves them of some guilt, they just did what she was asking for. There isn't anything to understand here. You're slut shaming and blaming the victim because she got drunk, and possibly drugged.

I said she SHARED responsibility, not that she was totally responsible. If you want to call that slut shaming, so be it.

How does she share in anything? She was passed out! She couldn't have done anything if she tried to. Where exactly is her responsibility.

InitialCommentGuy: adamgreeney:

No matter what the situation, no one should think that raping an unconscious person is acceptable. It isn't. We should all be evolved enough and have the smallest shred of morality so that when we see an unconscious person, we don't jump to raping them. No one has the right to violate anyone else, regardless of the circumstances. There aren't shades of gray here. She didn't do anything wrong, and was possibly drugged, which renders your point moot. Why so staunchly try to find her at fault here?

And yet I cannot be the controller of every individual.  While the kids committed a crime she provided opportunity for said crime to occur through her actions.

They could have raped her if she was stone cold sober too, or any other girl they ran across while horny. She simply existed, which I don't think most people feel is offering opportunity for a crime.

Her responsibility was to not get so farking drunk that she was no longer in control of her actions.


You're assuming that if she had been able to say no, they would have stopped. Do you know that if she said no or not? And if she had, would that have made her not responsible? Could she have fought off the group of guys if she had tried to leave?

You're finding any reason to blame her even though you have no idea how or if she could have stopped it from happening. Unless your contention is that all girls should stay at home unless accompanied by an adult male chaperon. . .
 
2013-03-17 12:44:47 PM  

95BV5: arbitterm: It would only be justice if they were forced to register as sex offenders. Goodbye good college or career.

I see you're not alone here with your misbelief, but sex offenders registries were never created to be punative measures.


With their history, a quick Google will reveal their crimes to any future potential employers, dates, etc.   That is a good thing.  I do wish that the prosecution had fought to have them tried as adults before a jury.  I still cannot believe that nobody at any of these parties didn't try to stop the abuse.  One witness was on record as telling them it was wrong and they should stop, but nobody physically tried to stop them.
 
2013-03-17 12:44:47 PM  

Trixie212: adamgreeney: Trixie212: adamgreeney: Trixie212: You're allowed to be disgusted. Why do you ignore the fact that I've said they had no right to touch her and are guilty. That doesn't negate the fact that she shares some responsibility.

/don't care if you agree or understand

Saying they had no right to touch her, but she's somehow responsible are TOTALLY conflicting statements. If they had no right, then there isn't any blame to place on her. If she was "asking for it," then that absolves them of some guilt, they just did what she was asking for. There isn't anything to understand here. You're slut shaming and blaming the victim because she got drunk, and possibly drugged.

I said she SHARED responsibility, not that she was totally responsible. If you want to call that slut shaming, so be it.

How does she share in anything? She was passed out! She couldn't have done anything if she tried to. Where exactly is her responsibility.

InitialCommentGuy: adamgreeney:

No matter what the situation, no one should think that raping an unconscious person is acceptable. It isn't. We should all be evolved enough and have the smallest shred of morality so that when we see an unconscious person, we don't jump to raping them. No one has the right to violate anyone else, regardless of the circumstances. There aren't shades of gray here. She didn't do anything wrong, and was possibly drugged, which renders your point moot. Why so staunchly try to find her at fault here?

And yet I cannot be the controller of every individual.  While the kids committed a crime she provided opportunity for said crime to occur through her actions.

They could have raped her if she was stone cold sober too, or any other girl they ran across while horny. She simply existed, which I don't think most people feel is offering opportunity for a crime.

Her responsibility was to not get so farking drunk that she was no longer in control of her actions.


Yeah. Those darned rape victims are always to blame for not knowing that they're drinking with rapists.

It's almost as if these rape victims feel like they have a right to not be raped.
 
2013-03-17 12:44:53 PM  

WhippingBoy: The problem with alcohol is that is significantly affects your decision making abilities.

Again, do we hold people responsible for their actions when under the influence of an intoxicating substance, or do we not?


The law usually does, yes.  And it's probably a good thing, because otherwise the "I was drunk, your honor" defense would come up everywhere.
 
2013-03-17 12:45:30 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: I used to do work with refugees from (country I won't name because it would date me)


Upper Peru?  I bet it was Upper Peru.  You ARE old!
 
2013-03-17 12:45:32 PM  

Guess_Who: Putting your fingers inside the school whore who is drunk is considered rape now?

an insult to true victims out there.


Yes, when someone is so drunk that they cant even stand up, and you penetrate them either digitally or with your genitals, it is rape, regardless of who that person is or how much you deride them as being a whore.

Glad we could clear that up.
 
2013-03-17 12:45:38 PM  

Oldiron_79: Wow there is a good flame war here. I didn't keep up with this one so I haven't a clue whether there was rape or whether it was "girl pissed that there was pics and changed her mind about being consentual after the fact"


It was interesting to watch it evolve.  It started out anger over the sentencing, which was understandable isn't really worth having a flamewar over since you can only convict based on what charges were filed.  Now we've moved into this odd area where a 16 year old girl who got drunk at teenage party is being held chided by some for not knowing how to hold her liquor and there are some odd side comments about college girls at frat parties and all that which seems like apples to oranges.
 
2013-03-17 12:45:45 PM  

bulldg4life: Quaker: There's a clearly defined limit of intoxication beyond which we don't hold people accountable for their actions?

Well, yes. That's why drunk girls can have sex, but unconscious blacked out girls can be raped. See, there's a limit to where "being drunk" isn't enough of an excuse. We just discussed this two posts ago.


If someone is unconscious then they're not physically capable of giving consent, so there is no action for which to hold them accountable in the first place. I'm talking about the original reference to "drunken consent".
 
2013-03-17 12:46:06 PM  

firefly212: tarheel07: Enjoy getting raped in prison, scumbags.

People like you are why I think people should choose judges over juries. Seriously "enjoy getting raped?"... you think raping 16 year olds is ok, but only the ones who did bad things? Torture, violence, and rape are why we get such a high recidivism rate... morons like you get giddy with the thought of prison being a hellscape that grooms better criminals, then wonder why the prisoners are so vindictive towards society at large when they get out... more often than hot though, asshats like you don't wonder that, you just hyper-simplify complex problems with statements like "if you didn't wanna get raped and stabbed, you shouldn't have broken the law" without ever thinking just how much of a Saudi Arabian tool that makes you sound like.

The reality is you sick farks support Sharia law and you don't even know it.


It's more of a fantasy than a reality anyway. Life in the joint is far more mundane than the middle class male imagines it to be - actually, the boredom is the worst part by a huge margin.
 
2013-03-17 12:46:12 PM  
Was the team the SteubenvilleStuds?

//obscure
 
2013-03-17 12:46:36 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Bontesla: BarkingUnicorn: Bontesla: There's some (very limited) evidence that suggests she was drugged. She had no memory of the nights before and wasn't even aware of what happened until she started hearing about how she was raped.

There was no evidence at all, only her own speculative testimony.

The question of whether a person can be sober enough to consent and drunk enough to later forget consenting was explored at trial.  The upshot is, "Yes, but we can't tell if that's the case because individual tolerances for alcohol vary so much."

It's like you only read a portion of my post...

No. The evidence is the timeline of events pieced together by eye witness testimony. Yes - she ingested alcohol. She likely ingested a significant portion of it. However - eye witness testimony does one helluva job suggesting that maybe she ingested a little more than alcohol. It's certainly plausible - and something that the police never ruled out in the case. They simply had insufficient evidence to establish it.

But given that there were a handful of other accounts in which girls woke up partially disrobed with memory loss is certainly interesting. There's one particular instance in which someone was posting anonymous comments online speculating that she could have been a victim. She said that she doesn't like the taste of beer so she only had one - one that she didn't finish. And that's all she could remember. She woke up almost entirely naked the next day. That's the ultimate light weight.

She also never came forward and gave her testimony to the police - but is that really surprising?

Who the hell knows what happened? Certainly not you or I. But let's not attribute the entire evening to alcohol - especially given the amount of questions surrounding the night's events.

Which is why *I* am not engaging in unfounded speculation.


Except that anyone completely attributing this night to alcohol is engaging in unfounded speculation.

I'm not saying drugs were involved - but certainly police that the possibility existed. It just could not be proven.
 
2013-03-17 12:46:53 PM  

adamgreeney: Trixie212: adamgreeney: Trixie212: adamgreeney: Trixie212: You're allowed to be disgusted. Why do you ignore the fact that I've said they had no right to touch her and are guilty. That doesn't negate the fact that she shares some responsibility.

/don't care if you agree or understand

Saying they had no right to touch her, but she's somehow responsible are TOTALLY conflicting statements. If they had no right, then there isn't any blame to place on her. If she was "asking for it," then that absolves them of some guilt, they just did what she was asking for. There isn't anything to understand here. You're slut shaming and blaming the victim because she got drunk, and possibly drugged.

I said she SHARED responsibility, not that she was totally responsible. If you want to call that slut shaming, so be it.

How does she share in anything? She was passed out! She couldn't have done anything if she tried to. Where exactly is her responsibility.

InitialCommentGuy: adamgreeney:

No matter what the situation, no one should think that raping an unconscious person is acceptable. It isn't. We should all be evolved enough and have the smallest shred of morality so that when we see an unconscious person, we don't jump to raping them. No one has the right to violate anyone else, regardless of the circumstances. There aren't shades of gray here. She didn't do anything wrong, and was possibly drugged, which renders your point moot. Why so staunchly try to find her at fault here?

And yet I cannot be the controller of every individual.  While the kids committed a crime she provided opportunity for said crime to occur through her actions.

They could have raped her if she was stone cold sober too, or any other girl they ran across while horny. She simply existed, which I don't think most people feel is offering opportunity for a crime.

Her responsibility was to not get so farking drunk that she was no longer in control of her actions.

You're assuming that if she had been able to say no, they would have stopped. Do you know that if she said no or not? And if she had, would that have made her not responsible? Could she have fought off the group of guys if she had tried to leave?

You're finding any reason to blame her even though you have no idea how or if she could have stopped it from happening. Unless your contention is that all girls should stay at home unless accompanied by an adult male chaperon. . .


No, I don't know that and you don't know what all she said either.

Sometimes, people just have to agree to disagree. I feel one way. You feel another. The world is going to keep turning.
 
2013-03-17 12:47:08 PM  
I think women and victims in general carry a lot of responsibility not to put themselves in harm's way, but it is responsibility to themselves...not legal responsibility. No female rape victim ever forced a man's penis into her and no mugging victim ever forced a perp's knife to his or her throat. If I leave my car unlocked, do you really want the law to side with the car thief because that's how it sounds? there's criminal responsibility and moral responsibility. Victim shaming is abhorrent. These people have to live with their traumas for the rest of their lives and I'm sure they are fully aware of how their decisions placed them in harm's way.

But if you rape forgiving dumb shiats want to be all about personal responsibility, accept that rapists (and car thieves and muggers) made their decisions and now they have to accept the consequences. In this case, the girl was unconscious, there were witnesses, and there was photographic evidence...so the facts and the source of criminal responsibility should not really be in question.

For those of you upset that women can dress slutty and then turn you down, well, I'm sure a nice cat lady will come along some day.
 
2013-03-17 12:48:19 PM  
adamgreeney:

You're right, it is not a perfect world. No one is saying it is. But that doesn't make those that are raped, murdered, robbed, etc at fault for the behavior of others. The kids should know, as most people do, that rape is not acceptable. I'm assuming you agree with that right? The girl couldn't know that these guys thought gang rape was their idea of a fun night out, so how did she share any responsibility? Should all women just assume men are going to rape them at any given moment? Because i think that's a little bit of projection on your part, since I can't think of a single male I know personally that would behave like this.

And you deal with a very specific class of male.  I know several guys I wouldn't trust in a room with a drunken woman and so I don't invite them to parties.  I deal with them as I must due to work or social activities, but wouldn't let them into a location where a vulnerable individual is located.  I also know plenty of guys who would hold them in check by any means necessary, and those are the people I associate with, let into my home, drink beers with while watching a match or just hanging out at the bar.

Anyone has the ability to perform horrible acts.  You believe we have evolved, I know by personal experience that we are a few days without power or food away from savagery.  I get that your life is comfortable in comparison to 99% of the world's population... You have a computer to argue with me on. But if you went to some of the places I have gone, or dealt with the groups I have?  You would have a bit better understanding of the human condition beyond puppies, rainbows, and social justice.

There's good and evil in every man, woman, and child.  Events both inexplicable and completely normal will affect them in ways that you or I cannot judge.  And so I treat any person with the kind of knowledge of danger that I would treat a wild animal, a found firearm, or any other potentially dangerous instrument.
 
2013-03-17 12:48:45 PM  

monty666: Whole Wheat: Never in my most drunken days of high school or college would I have imagined this to be alright. Maybe the parents of S-ville should focus less on sports and more on morality.

Wow man, you were really upright back then. It's good you've loosened up.


So he's uptight because he didn't think raping an unconscious girl was a fun thing to do on Saturday night.

What the fark is wrong with you?
 
2013-03-17 12:48:51 PM  

office_despot: I started college young, so when I was her age I was starting my freshman year.  And drinking hard for the first time.  I didn't really know what my limits were.  So that first week, I went to a party, drank a lot of beer, and started flirting with a guy (an athlete).  I even told him where I lived.  And then on the way back to my dorm later, by myself, I decided it would be a good idea to take a nap on the steps of a building.  Along came that same guy -- pretty drunk himself -- woke me up, got me back on my feet, and walked me all the way to my room where he could hand me off safely to my roommate.

Just remember -- people always have options.  Any one of us can always help someone who needs help.

 It's not "understandable" they did this, it's not "her bad judgment," that's at fault -- it's their shiatty upbringings.  And apparently those of everyone at that party.


And a lot of the people in Steubenville, it seems.  For generations, if we believe Traci Lords.
 
2013-03-17 12:49:28 PM  
I see that this is one of those threads where I have to set up an Automator script for "click 'ignore' button, enter 'blames the rape victim' as comment, click submit".

Jesus Christ, some of you people.
 
2013-03-17 12:49:50 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: InitialCommentGuy: I used to do work with refugees from (country I won't name because it would date me)

Upper Peru?  I bet it was Upper Peru.  You ARE old!


Damn you unicorn...

When I'm done with the leprechaun...
 
2013-03-17 12:50:15 PM  

Trixie212: adamgreeney: Trixie212: jaytkay: Trixie212: She got finger banged. What that poor girl in India went through on that bus was brutal.

Cuz if one thing is bad other things can't be bad, too

I didn't say that. In fact, the other part of my post said that she didn't deserve for them to touch her. I still don't believe it qualified as being "brutal".

I imagine it was quite brutal to her. Good god, it is probably the worst thing that will happen to her and will stay with her for life. Just because worse things happen doesn't mean she should have a stiff upper lip and move on.

I have sons and I gave daughters and I've tried to imagine how I would feel if it was any of my kids who were involved in this. My opinion is not going to be popular but I really don't care. Had that been my daughter, I would have held her just as responsible for what happened to her as I would have the guys. I'm not saying that I wouldn't have understood her being hurt and upset and I know she would have had to deal with the consequences for a long time.

But at the end of the day, the consequences began with the choices she made. If this girls' former friends are to be believed, she was a bit of a train wreck. Ideally, she could be a train wreck and affect no one other than herself but we all know that's not the way society works.

The boys will pay the consequences for this all the rest of their days. Rightly so? Maybe. I just think she shares in the responsibility of what happened to her.




I feel so sorry for your daughter. I can see her ending up like this poor girl. Link
 
2013-03-17 12:51:51 PM  
casey17:


I feel so sorry for your daughter. I can see her ending up like this poor girl. Link


Anyone who assumes you shouldn't drink to comatose must be a sociopath/rapist/child abuser.

Yep, standard tactics out in force today.
 
2013-03-17 12:52:06 PM  

Bontesla: Except that anyone completely attributing this night to alcohol is engaging in unfounded speculation.

I'm not saying drugs were involved - but certainly police that the possibility existed. It just could not be proven.


Which is exactly what I said.  "We can't tell" and "we don't prove it" put us on the same side of the fence.

The question of drugs didn't matter in the end. It's irrelevant to this case.
 
2013-03-17 12:52:28 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: adamgreeney:

You're right, it is not a perfect world. No one is saying it is. But that doesn't make those that are raped, murdered, robbed, etc at fault for the behavior of others. The kids should know, as most people do, that rape is not acceptable. I'm assuming you agree with that right? The girl couldn't know that these guys thought gang rape was their idea of a fun night out, so how did she share any responsibility? Should all women just assume men are going to rape them at any given moment? Because i think that's a little bit of projection on your part, since I can't think of a single male I know personally that would behave like this.

And you deal with a very specific class of male.  I know several guys I wouldn't trust in a room with a drunken woman and so I don't invite them to parties.  I deal with them as I must due to work or social activities, but wouldn't let them into a location where a vulnerable individual is located.  I also know plenty of guys who would hold them in check by any means necessary, and those are the people I associate with, let into my home, drink beers with while watching a match or just hanging out at the bar.

Anyone has the ability to perform horrible acts.  You believe we have evolved, I know by personal experience that we are a few days without power or food away from savagery.  I get that your life is comfortable in comparison to 99% of the world's population... You have a computer to argue with me on. But if you went to some of the places I have gone, or dealt with the groups I have?  You would have a bit better understanding of the human condition beyond puppies, rainbows, and social justice.

There's good and evil in every man, woman, and child.  Events both inexplicable and completely normal will affect them in ways that you or I cannot judge.  And so I treat any person with the kind of knowledge of danger that I would treat a wild animal, a found firearm, or any other potentially dangerous instrument.


Ah I see you've been to Detroit as well.

The rest of your post is very Cormac McCarthy-esque.  Well done.
 
2013-03-17 12:52:50 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: adamgreeney:

You're right, it is not a perfect world. No one is saying it is. But that doesn't make those that are raped, murdered, robbed, etc at fault for the behavior of others. The kids should know, as most people do, that rape is not acceptable. I'm assuming you agree with that right? The girl couldn't know that these guys thought gang rape was their idea of a fun night out, so how did she share any responsibility? Should all women just assume men are going to rape them at any given moment? Because i think that's a little bit of projection on your part, since I can't think of a single male I know personally that would behave like this.

And you deal with a very specific class of male.  I know several guys I wouldn't trust in a room with a drunken woman and so I don't invite them to parties.  I deal with them as I must due to work or social activities, but wouldn't let them into a location where a vulnerable individual is located.  I also know plenty of guys who would hold them in check by any means necessary, and those are the people I associate with, let into my home, drink beers with while watching a match or just hanging out at the bar.

Anyone has the ability to perform horrible acts.  You believe we have evolved, I know by personal experience that we are a few days without power or food away from savagery.  I get that your life is comfortable in comparison to 99% of the world's population... You have a computer to argue with me on. But if you went to some of the places I have gone, or dealt with the groups I have?  You would have a bit better understanding of the human condition beyond puppies, rainbows, and social justice.

There's good and evil in every man, woman, and child.  Events both inexplicable and completely normal will affect them in ways that you or I cannot judge.  And so I treat any person with the kind of knowledge of danger that I would treat a wild animal, a found firearm, or any other potentially dangerous instrument.


I actually agree with a lot of what you said. However, you're still blaming the victim. Even if we saw eye to eye here, how do you know this girl was taught skills to protect herself like you're suggesting? We aren't born knowing how to handle the various situations you're laid out, someone teaches us. So, at best, her parents and school are at fault for not teaching her the skills to prevent this. She isn't at fault at all.
Unless you can prove that she knew these guys were rapists, knew what they intended, and had all the skills and knowledge necessary to protect herself and evaluate the situation, you're still wrong for defending the rapists and blaming her. Sorry, but she isn't at fault in any way.
 
2013-03-17 12:54:17 PM  

casey17: Trixie212: adamgreeney: Trixie212: jaytkay: Trixie212: She got finger banged. What that poor girl in India went through on that bus was brutal.

Cuz if one thing is bad other things can't be bad, too

I didn't say that. In fact, the other part of my post said that she didn't deserve for them to touch her. I still don't believe it qualified as being "brutal".

I imagine it was quite brutal to her. Good god, it is probably the worst thing that will happen to her and will stay with her for life. Just because worse things happen doesn't mean she should have a stiff upper lip and move on.

I have sons and I gave daughters and I've tried to imagine how I would feel if it was any of my kids who were involved in this. My opinion is not going to be popular but I really don't care. Had that been my daughter, I would have held her just as responsible for what happened to her as I would have the guys. I'm not saying that I wouldn't have understood her being hurt and upset and I know she would have had to deal with the consequences for a long time.

But at the end of the day, the consequences began with the choices she made. If this girls' former friends are to be believed, she was a bit of a train wreck. Ideally, she could be a train wreck and affect no one other than herself but we all know that's not the way society works.


The boys will pay the consequences for this all the rest of their days. Rightly so? Maybe. I just think she shares in the responsibility of what happened to her.

I feel so sorry for your daughter. I can see her ending up like this poor girl. Link


I don't even know who did the bolded bit but Holy fark. Really?
 
2013-03-17 12:54:17 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: How does subby know that justice was served, was he an eyewitness to the events? Fact is innocent people are found guilty and vice versa all the time. Nobody here knows if they're rapists or just kids who got some drunken, consensual pussy.


We have a thing called a justice system with 12 people and a judge and everything.  It's really cool.  Lawyers do this thing where they present evidence and then reasonable people decide after that.  I mean, it's not fool-proof but it's a indicator or something.  Really neat how it all works.  Sometimes you can go to a courthouse and watch or read or even turn on the tv to see how it all works.
 
2013-03-17 12:54:46 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: Anyone who assumes you shouldn't drink to comatose must be a sociopath/rapist/child abuser.


"Drink Responsibly" = "Trip Realistically" = "Use Cocaine Calmly."
 
2013-03-17 12:54:57 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: Anyone has the ability to perform horrible acts.  You believe we have evolved, I know by personal experience that we are a few days without power or food away from savagery


Depends on where you live.  In America, yes.

In Japan, no.

Think about it.
 
2013-03-17 12:55:55 PM  

casey17: Trixie212: adamgreeney: Trixie212: jaytkay: Trixie212: She got finger banged. What that poor girl in India went through on that bus was brutal.

Cuz if one thing is bad other things can't be bad, too

I didn't say that. In fact, the other part of my post said that she didn't deserve for them to touch her. I still don't believe it qualified as being "brutal".

I imagine it was quite brutal to her. Good god, it is probably the worst thing that will happen to her and will stay with her for life. Just because worse things happen doesn't mean she should have a stiff upper lip and move on.

I have sons and I gave daughters and I've tried to imagine how I would feel if it was any of my kids who were involved in this. My opinion is not going to be popular but I really don't care. Had that been my daughter, I would have held her just as responsible for what happened to her as I would have the guys. I'm not saying that I wouldn't have understood her being hurt and upset and I know she would have had to deal with the consequences for a long time.

But at the end of the day, the consequences began with the choices she made. If this girls' former friends are to be believed, she was a bit of a train wreck. Ideally, she could be a train wreck and affect no one other than herself but we all know that's not the way society works.

The boys will pay the consequences for this all the rest of their days. Rightly so? Maybe. I just think she shares in the responsibility of what happened to her.

I feel so sorry for your daughter. I can see her ending up like this poor girl. Link


Both of my daughters are wonderful, responsible, self-reliant women and I'm very proud of both of them. One served in our military and is now in nursing school and the other is raising a wonderful family.

One last time, it's possible to believe the victim shares in some personal responsibility without being a "rape apologist". The whole situation is just sad.

/they both agree with me on this subject
//not that you care
 
2013-03-17 12:56:28 PM  

captainmaxthedestroyer: Ah I see you've been to Detroit as well.

The rest of your post is very Cormac McCarthy-esque.  Well done.


Thank you.  And yeah, I spent a hitch in Detroit during the nadir where there wasn't a market for miles and you had to worry about walking around even in decent neighborhoods.  I remember delivering around 40k in computer equipment on one of my first runs being forced off a main strip by a blockade of burnt out vehicles.  The offshoot took me into an even better area.

Detroit is bad.  But there are areas in Appalachia, along the Gulf Coast, and even in the West that can be very, very rough.
 
2013-03-17 12:56:51 PM  

yelmrog: InitialCommentGuy: Anyone has the ability to perform horrible acts.  You believe we have evolved, I know by personal experience that we are a few days without power or food away from savagery

Depends on where you live.  In America, yes.

In Japan, no.

Think about it.


In Japan, they'd all kill themselves.
 
2013-03-17 12:57:10 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: office_despot: I started college young, so when I was her age I was starting my freshman year.  And drinking hard for the first time.  I didn't really know what my limits were.  So that first week, I went to a party, drank a lot of beer, and started flirting with a guy (an athlete).  I even told him where I lived.  And then on the way back to my dorm later, by myself, I decided it would be a good idea to take a nap on the steps of a building.  Along came that same guy -- pretty drunk himself -- woke me up, got me back on my feet, and walked me all the way to my room where he could hand me off safely to my roommate.

Just remember -- people always have options.  Any one of us can always help someone who needs help.

 It's not "understandable" they did this, it's not "her bad judgment," that's at fault -- it's their shiatty upbringings.  And apparently those of everyone at that party.

And a lot of the people in Steubenville, it seems.  For generations, if we believe Traci Lords.


I attended college not too far away from Steubenville. I was friends with one guy who said sexual violence isn't particularly rare at parties. He said it was just the culture. It wasn't a big deal. There were a lot of churches. Many thought rape was just . . . almost like a punishment for women for being somewhere they shouldn't be or doing something they shouldn't be doing.

He was so unnervingly non-nonchalant about it. He said he was disgusted by it and got the hell outta there as soon as he could . . .  but I found it to be much more disturbing than he thought it was. This was back in 2003ish.

When this victim came forward - many people accused her of being an outsider trying to take things out of context. It reminded me of the conversations I had with that classmate.
 
2013-03-17 12:57:31 PM  

Tak the Hideous New Girl: casey17: Trixie212: adamgreeney: Trixie212: jaytkay: Trixie212: She got finger banged. What that poor girl in India went through on that bus was brutal.

Cuz if one thing is bad other things can't be bad, too

I didn't say that. In fact, the other part of my post said that she didn't deserve for them to touch her. I still don't believe it qualified as being "brutal".

I imagine it was quite brutal to her. Good god, it is probably the worst thing that will happen to her and will stay with her for life. Just because worse things happen doesn't mean she should have a stiff upper lip and move on.

I have sons and I gave daughters and I've tried to imagine how I would feel if it was any of my kids who were involved in this. My opinion is not going to be popular but I really don't care. Had that been my daughter, I would have held her just as responsible for what happened to her as I would have the guys. I'm not saying that I wouldn't have understood her being hurt and upset and I know she would have had to deal with the consequences for a long time.

But at the end of the day, the consequences began with the choices she made. If this girls' former friends are to be believed, she was a bit of a train wreck. Ideally, she could be a train wreck and affect no one other than herself but we all know that's not the way society works.

The boys will pay the consequences for this all the rest of their days. Rightly so? Maybe. I just think she shares in the responsibility of what happened to her.

I feel so sorry for your daughter. I can see her ending up like this poor girl. Link

I don't even know who did the bolded bit but Holy fark. Really?


It's depressing enough to see all the men jumping to defend their rape fantasies, but when a MOTHER is saying the girl is to blame, and that what happened to her wasn't "brutal" and dismissing it as just "getting finger banged," it's even more sickening.
 
2013-03-17 12:58:26 PM  

Trixie212: Her responsibility was to not get so farking drunk that she was no longer in control of her actions.


At 16 years old, I didn't really know my limits of alcohol consumption, either. Kids do dumb things because they're not yet adults, and drinking yourself to the point of blacking out and waking up with a DEFCON 1 hangover the next morning is orders of magnitude less an example of a moral or practical failing of personal and social responsibility than sexual assault.

Basically, I have no idea why you even bring her "lack of responsibility" up in the first place. It's completely irrelevant. I can dig deep enough and find examples of poor or incorrect choices by a victim in any crime, but I don't do so because it's cold and unsympathetic.
 
2013-03-17 12:58:29 PM  

Tak the Hideous New Girl: monty666: Whole Wheat: Never in my most drunken days of high school or college would I have imagined this to be alright. Maybe the parents of S-ville should focus less on sports and more on morality.

Wow man, you were really upright back then. It's good you've loosened up.

So he's uptight because he didn't think raping an unconscious girl was a fun thing to do on Saturday night.

What the fark is wrong with you?


Are you really that dense?
 
2013-03-17 12:58:52 PM  

Lenny_da_Hog: yelmrog: InitialCommentGuy: Anyone has the ability to perform horrible acts.  You believe we have evolved, I know by personal experience that we are a few days without power or food away from savagery

Depends on where you live.  In America, yes.

In Japan, no.

Think about it.

In Japan, they'd all kill themselves.


lol
 
2013-03-17 12:58:56 PM  

adamgreeney: I actually agree with a lot of what you said. However, you're still blaming the victim. Even if we saw eye to eye here, how do you know this girl was taught skills to protect herself like you're suggesting? We aren't born knowing how to handle the various situations you're laid out, someone teaches us. So, at best, her parents and school are at fault for not teaching her the skills to prevent this. She isn't at fault at all.


Parents?  Yes, she needed to be taught not to drink or to not accept drinks from strangers and master her drinking. Schools?  Yes, let us pass morality onto educators...

Unless you can prove that she knew these guys were rapists, knew what they intended, and had all the skills and knowledge necessary to protect herself and evaluate the situation, you're still wrong for defending the rapists and blaming her. Sorry, but she isn't at fault in any way.

And again, you don't seem to get what we're talking about at all.  And you are just showing how little you know about the world outside your nice comfy spot.
 
2013-03-17 12:59:32 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: casey17:


I feel so sorry for your daughter. I can see her ending up like this poor girl. Link


Anyone who assumes you shouldn't drink to comatose must be a sociopath/rapist/child abuser.

Yep, standard tactics out in force today.


One probably should not drink themselves into a coma in public (or drink at all IMHO), but if you are trying to say she deserved it then you're a giant douche. If you want to suggest some other labels for yourself, go for it.
 
2013-03-17 12:59:44 PM  
These threads are great for updating farky. it is nice to know who the rape apologists are.
 
2013-03-17 12:59:57 PM  

adamgreeney: It's depressing enough to see all the men jumping to defend their rape fantasies, but when a MOTHER is saying the girl is to blame, and that what happened to her wasn't "brutal" and dismissing it as just "getting finger banged," it's even more sickening.


Let me guess: You're another one who thinks the "War on Women" is waged by men.
 
2013-03-17 01:00:12 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: The My Little Pony Killer: InitialCommentGuy: Of course.  Anonymous strikes and forces the hand on a case of digital manipulation while intoxicated.

Truly justice vengeance whining until things take their course then taking credit for great social justice has been served by the Internet community.

fark off and die.  Violently.  In a fire.

/asshole

Sorry kid.  Your actions have little to nothing to do with how the case was resolved.  This is textbook for the guilty verdict as digital penetration (the absolute only thing that was covered for at least one of them) was the only thing captured and confirmed.

Remember: It is always rape.  Always.  Even if you decide to drink, loosen up and screw around with guys over the span of several parties.
.


May I suggest that you go over the local rape statutes before you go sticking your finger in anyone else in Ohio in the near future?

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2907

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2907.02

"No person shall engage in sexual conduct with another who is not the spouse of the offender or who is the spouse of the offender but is living separate and apart from the offender, when any of the following applies:

a) For the purpose of preventing resistance, the offender substantially impairs the other person's judgment or control by administering any drug, intoxicant, or controlled substance to the other person surreptitiously or by force, threat of force, or deception."

 As used in sections 2907.01 [ff.] of the Revised Code:
(A) "Sexual conduct" means vaginal intercourse between a male and female; anal intercourse, fellatio, and cunnilingus between persons regardless of sex; and, without privilege to do so, the insertion, however slight, of any part of the body or any instrument, apparatus, or other object into the vaginal or anal opening of another. Penetration, however slight, is sufficient to complete vaginal or anal intercourse.

The boy who penetrated that girl's vagina was delinquent of rape according to Ohio law.  If you don't like it, complain to the Ohio legislature.
 
2013-03-17 01:00:14 PM  

adamgreeney: Tak the Hideous New Girl: casey17: Trixie212: adamgreeney: Trixie212: jaytkay: Trixie212: She got finger banged. What that poor girl in India went through on that bus was brutal.

Cuz if one thing is bad other things can't be bad, too

I didn't say that. In fact, the other part of my post said that she didn't deserve for them to touch her. I still don't believe it qualified as being "brutal".

I imagine it was quite brutal to her. Good god, it is probably the worst thing that will happen to her and will stay with her for life. Just because worse things happen doesn't mean she should have a stiff upper lip and move on.

I have sons and I gave daughters and I've tried to imagine how I would feel if it was any of my kids who were involved in this. My opinion is not going to be popular but I really don't care. Had that been my daughter, I would have held her just as responsible for what happened to her as I would have the guys. I'm not saying that I wouldn't have understood her being hurt and upset and I know she would have had to deal with the consequences for a long time.

But at the end of the day, the consequences began with the choices she made. If this girls' former friends are to be believed, she was a bit of a train wreck. Ideally, she could be a train wreck and affect no one other than herself but we all know that's not the way society works.

The boys will pay the consequences for this all the rest of their days. Rightly so? Maybe. I just think she shares in the responsibility of what happened to her.

I feel so sorry for your daughter. I can see her ending up like this poor girl. Link

I don't even know who did the bolded bit but Holy fark. Really?

It's depressing enough to see all the men jumping to defend their rape fantasies, but when a MOTHER is saying the girl is to blame, and that what happened to her wasn't "brutal" and dismissing it as just "getting finger banged," it's even more sickening.


One more time, moron. I said she SHARED responsibility. SHARED. They get the blame for taking advantage of her but she SHARES responsibility.

/fark you
 
2013-03-17 01:00:31 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: The chick was drunk and had a history of getting drunk. Her friend tried to stop her from leaving with the guys and she got mean and took a swing at her friend. The morning after, she was only upset about not being able to find her cell phone. She only went balls out claiming rape after the picture and video started making the rounds on the internet.

The dudes were assholes, but that doesn't make them rapists.


Her parents quite possibly should be punished/parental rights somehow abrogated for being stupid at parenting, but that doesn't excuse the football players for being rapists.
 
2013-03-17 01:00:34 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Bontesla: Except that anyone completely attributing this night to alcohol is engaging in unfounded speculation.

I'm not saying drugs were involved - but certainly police that the possibility existed. It just could not be proven.

Which is exactly what I said.  "We can't tell" and "we don't prove it" put us on the same side of the fence.

The question of drugs didn't matter in the end. It's irrelevant to this case.


Meh. We will just disagree on this.

I think we both agree that rape is rape. But - the use of drugs and the potential for there being multiple victims from that night is something I find particularly striking. Also boys assigning themselves the name "Rape Crew" it being known before the night of the rape is also disturbing.

It's something that brings this . . . truly terrible act into possibly many truly terrible acts that have happened before and likely after this particular case.
 
2013-03-17 01:01:29 PM  

Trixie212: Both of my daughters are wonderful, responsible, self-reliant women and I'm very proud of both of them. One served in our military and is now in nursing school and the other is raising a wonderful family.

/they both agree with me on this subject


InitialCommentGuy: I remember delivering around 40k in computer equipment on one of my first runs being forced off a main strip by a blockade of burnt out vehicles.


Sure you remember that. Everything you write is plausible. We totally believe you.
 
2013-03-17 01:02:15 PM  

Trixie212: casey17: Trixie212: adamgreeney: Trixie212: jaytkay: Trixie212: She got finger banged. What that poor girl in India went through on that bus was brutal.

Cuz if one thing is bad other things can't be bad, too

I didn't say that. In fact, the other part of my post said that she didn't deserve for them to touch her. I still don't believe it qualified as being "brutal".

I imagine it was quite brutal to her. Good god, it is probably the worst thing that will happen to her and will stay with her for life. Just because worse things happen doesn't mean she should have a stiff upper lip and move on.

I have sons and I gave daughters and I've tried to imagine how I would feel if it was any of my kids who were involved in this. My opinion is not going to be popular but I really don't care. Had that been my daughter, I would have held her just as responsible for what happened to her as I would have the guys. I'm not saying that I wouldn't have understood her being hurt and upset and I know she would have had to deal with the consequences for a long time.

But at the end of the day, the consequences began with the choices she made. If this girls' former friends are to be believed, she was a bit of a train wreck. Ideally, she could be a train wreck and affect no one other than herself but we all know that's not the way society works.

The boys will pay the consequences for this all the rest of their days. Rightly so? Maybe. I just think she shares in the responsibility of what happened to her.

I feel so sorry for your daughter. I can see her ending up like this poor girl. Link

Both of my daughters are wonderful, responsible, self-reliant women and I'm very proud of both of them. One served in our military and is now in nursing school and the other is raising a wonderful family.

One last time, it's possible to believe the victim shares in some personal responsibility without being a "rape apologist". The whole situation is just sad.

/they both agree with me on this subje ...


Agreement doesn't make you right.

Rape is NEVER partially the victim's fault.
 
2013-03-17 01:02:30 PM  
jaytkay:

InitialCommentGuy: I remember delivering around 40k in computer equipment on one of my first runs being forced off a main strip by a blockade of burnt out vehicles.

Sure you remember that. Everything you write is plausible. We totally believe you.


It's alright bud.  Truly you know what's going on.
 
2013-03-17 01:03:17 PM  
Ah, I see all the rape apologists are present, good, good.

These kids should be shot.  There I said it.
 
2013-03-17 01:04:00 PM  

iaazathot: Ah, I see all the rape apologists are present, good, good.

These kids should be shot.  There I said it.


Remember guys: fingering a drunk girl earns you an execution.
 
2013-03-17 01:04:08 PM  
I love all the football hate with this story. Like that has anything whatsoever to do with it. This sort of shiat happens in every town in America, every year.
 
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