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(Yahoo)   Justice delivered: two members of the high school football team that is the pride of Steubenville were found guilty of raping a drunken 16-year-old girl   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 772
    More: News, Ohio, found guilty, football team  
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12544 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Mar 2013 at 11:24 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-17 12:25:28 PM  
adamgreeney:

No, but anyone defending rapists and justifying their actions is a sociopath. We don't hear anyone defend Jeffery Dahmer because of his different "ideology," we just accept he's a sociopath, and anyone that thinks what he did is ok is probably one too. You're defending the brutal violation of a teenage girl that videotaped and distributed for bragging rights. That isn't ideology, it's you showing us that you're a sociopath.

No, I am pointing out the fact that you should not walk in a room of dangerous individuals without protecting yourself.  But again, please go on about how in your limited white knight mind the concept of nullification of responsibility exists for women who decide to drink to excess in a dangerous location.
 
2013-03-17 12:25:29 PM  

Musikslayer: Popcorn Johnny:  drunken, consensual

Oxymoron, dumbass.


Having sex with a drunk woman is not necessarily rape. Being intoxicated doesn't make you incapable of giving consent unless you're actually passed out or incoherent, as seems to be the case here.

Why is it that if a man and woman, both equally drunk, agree to have sex, you believe only the man is guilty of rape? I've never understood how people can claim to be feminists/egalitarians and yet not see how obviously degrading this double standard is for women. To say that intoxicated women are unable to give consent but intoxicated men are just perpetuates the stereotype that women are weak, need protection, and lack autonomy.

I used to work in law enforcement and I can tell you that we frequently had to explain to women that being pestered into having sex or having sex when you're drunk and regretting it the next day is NOT rape. The only time someone is too inebriated to give consent is when they're literally too inebriated to give consent, as in unable to express consent verbally or otherwise. A woman can be blackout drunk, stumbling and falling over, and still consent to sex as long as she's coherent enough to express that consent. I don't know why this is so difficult for people to understand.

I remember once where we actually apprehended a group of marines for supposedly "raping" some dependent spouse while her service-member was deployed. One of them had a cell phone video depicting her engaged in obviously consensual sex with this group of marines. I won't go into too much detail, but suffice to say it's hard to scream "Give it to me devil dogs!" with a mouthful of cock. Showing her the video, explaining to her that she was a lying whore, and charging her for the false report were deeply satisfying.
 
2013-03-17 12:25:43 PM  

Lenny_da_Hog: Of course, when these same sorts of assholes terrorize and assault other boys in high school, we tell the other boys to "man up," because assault isn't a crime unless it's against a girl.


No, it *IS* assault regardless of the gender. These kind of assholes should be held responsible for their actions no matter WHO they terrorize.

I hope the parents of these kids are shamed daily by the people around them for letting their kids turn out this way. "Precious Snowflake" my ass.
 
2013-03-17 12:25:49 PM  

Musikslayer: Quaker: Musikslayer: Popcorn Johnny:  drunken, consensual

Oxymoron, dumbass.

So are you saying that drunk people aren't responsible for their own drunken decisions? Because I don't see how you could apply that logic to sex but not to other decisions like driving drunk or drunkenly assaulting someone.

Did you follow the story? It doesn't sound like it.

I don't make the laws. In Ohio (where I live), wasted and unconscious  16 year old girls are off limits. Is it a double standard? Ask the lawmakers, not me.


I haven't been following this case but I wasn't saying it's relevant here. I just read your post that called drunken consent an oxymoron. So for the purposes of this discussion, what the law says is irrelevant. You're capable of forming an opinion about whether or not something is a double standard and whether or not that double standard is justifiable, so tell me what you think. The lawmakers (theoretically) work for you, so what you think is more important anyway.
 
2013-03-17 12:25:54 PM  
Trixie212: You're allowed to be disgusted. Why do you ignore the fact that I've said they had no right to touch her and are guilty. That doesn't negate the fact that she shares some responsibility.

/don't care if you agree or understand


Saying they had no right to touch her, but she's somehow responsible are TOTALLY conflicting statements. If they had no right, then there isn't any blame to place on her. If she was "asking for it," then that absolves them of some guilt, they just did what she was asking for. There isn't anything to understand here. You're slut shaming and blaming the victim because she got drunk, and possibly drugged.
 
2013-03-17 12:26:24 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: Trixie212: You're allowed to be disgusted. Why do you ignore the fact that I've said they had no right to touch her and are guilty. That doesn't negate the fact that she shares some responsibility.

/don't care if you agree or understand

Because when you are the one being penetrated you are never to blame


I'm not sure that helps much.
 
2013-03-17 12:27:12 PM  

yelmrog: Only in the latter two instances, the person you describe actually has the ability to make decisions.  You can choose not to get behind the wheel.  You can choose not to talk shiat to the roid-head.  This girl didn't have those choices.


The problem with alcohol is that is significantly affects your decision making abilities.

Again, do we hold people responsible for their actions when under the influence of an intoxicating substance, or do we not?
 
2013-03-17 12:27:20 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: Theaetetus: InitialCommentGuy: Theaetetus: InitialCommentGuy: Theaetetus:

^This is what a pro-rape sociopath looks like.

/update your farkies, everyone

Oh no! Not Theaetetus!  I mean, I could have accepted such ridiculous barbs from anyone else but not such a pillar of our community.

No, you're a sociopath. You don't care what I call you, by definition. The point is to identify you so that others aren't misled into believing you.

Yes, please do prattle on about your brilliant identification.  Anyone who does not fit within your ideology must be a sociopath right?

Keep digging. The more you talk, the more people see you for what you are.

How could I survive losing face to the kind of people

who follow you?

I don't follow Theaetetus at all. I think he/she is a monumental dick. I also believe he/she is right on the money when charactirizing you as a sociopathic rapist apologist.
 
2013-03-17 12:28:42 PM  

yelmrog: Bontesla: There's some (very limited) evidence that suggests she was drugged. She had no memory of the nights before and wasn't even aware of what happened until she started hearing about how she was raped. Her mother then collected all of the evidence she could find (on the internet) and they went to the police. By that time - so much time had elapsed that there was no physical evidence of penetration and there were no chemical evidence of what the victim had ingested.

Not to mention the moniker of "rape crew" that these guys were known by prior to the event.


This.
 
2013-03-17 12:28:50 PM  

Bontesla: There's some (very limited) evidence that suggests she was drugged. She had no memory of the nights before and wasn't even aware of what happened until she started hearing about how she was raped.


There was no evidence at all, only her own speculative testimony.

The question of whether a person can be sober enough to consent and drunk enough to later forget consenting was explored at trial.  The upshot is, "Yes, but we can't tell if that's the case because individual tolerances for alcohol vary so much."
 
2013-03-17 12:28:56 PM  
The chick was drunk and had a history of getting drunk. Her friend tried to stop her from leaving with the guys and she got mean and took a swing at her friend. The morning after, she was only upset about not being able to find her cell phone. She only went balls out claiming rape after the picture and video started making the rounds on the internet.

The dudes were assholes, but that doesn't make them rapists.
 
2013-03-17 12:29:52 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: adamgreeney:

No, but anyone defending rapists and justifying their actions is a sociopath. We don't hear anyone defend Jeffery Dahmer because of his different "ideology," we just accept he's a sociopath, and anyone that thinks what he did is ok is probably one too. You're defending the brutal violation of a teenage girl that videotaped and distributed for bragging rights. That isn't ideology, it's you showing us that you're a sociopath.

No, I am pointing out the fact that you should not walk in a room of dangerous individuals without protecting yourself.  But again, please go on about how in your limited white knight mind the concept of nullification of responsibility exists for women who decide to drink to excess in a dangerous location.


No matter what the situation, no one should think that raping an unconscious person is acceptable. It isn't. We should all be evolved enough and have the smallest shred of morality so that when we see an unconscious person, we don't jump to raping them. No one has the right to violate anyone else, regardless of the circumstances. There aren't shades of gray here. She didn't do anything wrong, and was possibly drugged, which renders your point moot. Why so staunchly try to find her at fault here?
 
2013-03-17 12:30:21 PM  

95BV5: arbitterm: It would only be justice if they were forced to register as sex offenders. Goodbye good college or career.

I see you're not alone here with your misbelief, but sex offenders registries were never created to be punative measures.


And transvaginal ultrasounds were never intended to discourage abortions.
 
2013-03-17 12:30:28 PM  

adamgreeney: Why so staunchly try to find her at fault here?


because... football?
 
2013-03-17 12:30:57 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: farkplug:

The texts the wonderful young Mr. Mays sent?

If bragging about getting sex from a drunk chick was a crime, most of the men in America would be locked up.

Sexually assaulting a "chick" so drunk that she's completely passed out with a bunch of your buds and bragging about it by text with a bunch of your buds is what passes for "getting sex", these days? Oh, most-of-the-men-in-America, you sexy Lotharios, you!
 
2013-03-17 12:31:08 PM  

WhippingBoy: yelmrog: Only in the latter two instances, the person you describe actually has the ability to make decisions.  You can choose not to get behind the wheel.  You can choose not to talk shiat to the roid-head.  This girl didn't have those choices.

The problem with alcohol is that is significantly affects your decision making abilities.

Again, do we hold people responsible for their actions when under the influence of an intoxicating substance, or do we not?


The point I'm making is that I believe there are no victims when alcohol and drugs involved.  There can still be guilty parties, but there are no victims.
 
2013-03-17 12:31:20 PM  

adamgreeney: Trixie212: You're allowed to be disgusted. Why do you ignore the fact that I've said they had no right to touch her and are guilty. That doesn't negate the fact that she shares some responsibility.

/don't care if you agree or understand

Saying they had no right to touch her, but she's somehow responsible are TOTALLY conflicting statements. If they had no right, then there isn't any blame to place on her. If she was "asking for it," then that absolves them of some guilt, they just did what she was asking for. There isn't anything to understand here. You're slut shaming and blaming the victim because she got drunk, and possibly drugged.


Again... She became too intoxicated to be in control of herself.  I feel no sympathy for someone who is going to put themselves in harms way and then suffers a likely consequence of their actions.
 
2013-03-17 12:32:10 PM  

adamgreeney: Trixie212: You're allowed to be disgusted. Why do you ignore the fact that I've said they had no right to touch her and are guilty. That doesn't negate the fact that she shares some responsibility.

/don't care if you agree or understand

Saying they had no right to touch her, but she's somehow responsible are TOTALLY conflicting statements. If they had no right, then there isn't any blame to place on her. If she was "asking for it," then that absolves them of some guilt, they just did what she was asking for. There isn't anything to understand here. You're slut shaming and blaming the victim because she got drunk, and possibly drugged.


I said she SHARED responsibility, not that she was totally responsible. If you want to call that slut shaming, so be it.
 
2013-03-17 12:32:42 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: jso2897:

Why would we draw the line a rape? Why hold anyone criminally responsible for what they do to drunken people? If somebody is too drunk to stop me beating their ass and taking their wallet - don't blame me!
Lame.


[i1.ytimg.com image 480x360]

If you fail to conduct yourself properly around individuals who have the potential to do you harm then you have placed yourself at great risk.  Indeed alcohol and most other popular narcotics are looseners of social inhibitions.

Keep your head straight.

Of course this also occurred without incident or report over multiple parties where she repeated the behavior again, and again and again...  But that is inconvenient to the narrative right?


Having no particular "narrative" here, I wouldn't know that. I actually don't care what happens to any of these people - it' s just academic conjecture to me. I lack the passion to really hold my own in these shout-fests, and usually drop out of them pretty quickly.
 
2013-03-17 12:32:49 PM  
adamgreeney:

No matter what the situation, no one should think that raping an unconscious person is acceptable. It isn't. We should all be evolved enough and have the smallest shred of morality so that when we see an unconscious person, we don't jump to raping them. No one has the right to violate anyone else, regardless of the circumstances. There aren't shades of gray here. She didn't do anything wrong, and was possibly drugged, which renders your point moot. Why so staunchly try to find her at fault here?

And yet I cannot be the controller of every individual.  While the kids committed a crime she provided opportunity for said crime to occur through her actions.
 
2013-03-17 12:33:59 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: adamgreeney: Trixie212: You're allowed to be disgusted. Why do you ignore the fact that I've said they had no right to touch her and are guilty. That doesn't negate the fact that she shares some responsibility.

/don't care if you agree or understand

Saying they had no right to touch her, but she's somehow responsible are TOTALLY conflicting statements. If they had no right, then there isn't any blame to place on her. If she was "asking for it," then that absolves them of some guilt, they just did what she was asking for. There isn't anything to understand here. You're slut shaming and blaming the victim because she got drunk, and possibly drugged.

Again... She became too intoxicated to be in control of herself.  I feel no sympathy for someone who is going to put themselves in harms way and then suffers a likely consequence of their actions.


So rape is ok if they are passed out? They are fair game for anyone who walks by? I think this says a lot about how you get laid.

She should be able to get drunk and not fear rape. Rape is never, at any point, acceptable behavior. Sorry, but it isnt.
 
2013-03-17 12:34:03 PM  

tarheel07: Enjoy getting raped in prison, scumbags.


They're minors. Too bad they can't be sentenced to a real prison though, where "No" means nothing.
 
2013-03-17 12:34:56 PM  

cawingcrow: At least they've been outed on the Internet, so no suppression of juvenile records is going to keep future schools/employers/girlfriends from knowing exactly who they are dealing with.  That may be a bigger punishment than the year or so in juvie.


Yep.  These two convicts are permanently shiatlisted.  So is everyone whose names came out.

If only there was a way to change one's legal name.
 
2013-03-17 12:34:58 PM  
jso2897:

Having no particular "narrative" here, I wouldn't know that. I actually don't care what happens to any of these people - it' s just academic conjecture to me. I lack the passion to really hold my own in these shout-fests, and usually drop out of them pretty quickly.

I enjoy seeing the hackles get raised whenever someone is held accountable for their actions.  Of course it is usually just the same two or three who come out but it provides for some fun interactions on the most drunken day of the year.

Personally I'm going to go out and rape a leprechaun today.  It feels right.
 
2013-03-17 12:35:53 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: adamgreeney:

No matter what the situation, no one should think that raping an unconscious person is acceptable. It isn't. We should all be evolved enough and have the smallest shred of morality so that when we see an unconscious person, we don't jump to raping them. No one has the right to violate anyone else, regardless of the circumstances. There aren't shades of gray here. She didn't do anything wrong, and was possibly drugged, which renders your point moot. Why so staunchly try to find her at fault here?

And yet I cannot be the controller of every individual.  While the kids committed a crime she provided opportunity for said crime to occur through her actions.



You, sir, are a monster.

People are inherently good at heart and this is a helpful and caring world.  We instinctively look out for each other, that's what we do - we're humans.  It's not our responsibility to lookout for ourselves.  We're evolved beyond that.
 
2013-03-17 12:36:10 PM  

captainmaxthedestroyer: The only choice made in any of the above examples was the choice to get blitzed.  Everything that happens after the fact is proprietary.


Oh wow.  I'm just going to back away from this one.  You're absolutely nuts, friendo.
 
2013-03-17 12:36:14 PM  

Trixie212: adamgreeney: Trixie212: You're allowed to be disgusted. Why do you ignore the fact that I've said they had no right to touch her and are guilty. That doesn't negate the fact that she shares some responsibility.

/don't care if you agree or understand

Saying they had no right to touch her, but she's somehow responsible are TOTALLY conflicting statements. If they had no right, then there isn't any blame to place on her. If she was "asking for it," then that absolves them of some guilt, they just did what she was asking for. There isn't anything to understand here. You're slut shaming and blaming the victim because she got drunk, and possibly drugged.

I said she SHARED responsibility, not that she was totally responsible. If you want to call that slut shaming, so be it.


How does she share in anything? She was passed out! She couldn't have done anything if she tried to. Where exactly is her responsibility.

InitialCommentGuy: adamgreeney:

No matter what the situation, no one should think that raping an unconscious person is acceptable. It isn't. We should all be evolved enough and have the smallest shred of morality so that when we see an unconscious person, we don't jump to raping them. No one has the right to violate anyone else, regardless of the circumstances. There aren't shades of gray here. She didn't do anything wrong, and was possibly drugged, which renders your point moot. Why so staunchly try to find her at fault here?

And yet I cannot be the controller of every individual.  While the kids committed a crime she provided opportunity for said crime to occur through her actions.


They could have raped her if she was stone cold sober too, or any other girl they ran across while horny. She simply existed, which I don't think most people feel is offering opportunity for a crime.
 
2013-03-17 12:36:23 PM  
Wow there is a good flame war here. I didn't keep up with this one so I haven't a clue whether there was rape or whether it was "girl pissed that there was pics and changed her mind about being consentual after the fact"
 
2013-03-17 12:36:23 PM  
adamgreeney:

So rape is ok if they are passed out? They are fair game for anyone who walks by? I think this says a lot about how you get laid.

She should be able to get drunk and not fear rape. Rape is never, at any point, acceptable behavior. Sorry, but it isnt.


In a perfect world?  Yes.

As we live in an imperfect world with people who rape?  No.

But please, attempt the classic ad hominems.  It is quite fun to feel your impotent rage seething through your posts.
 
2013-03-17 12:36:37 PM  
captainmaxthedestroyer:

The point I'm making is that I believe there are no victims when alcohol and drugs involved.  There can still be guilty parties, but there are no victims.

Thanks, I'll make sure to pass on your point to my uncle the next time I see him, which isn't that often these days, because he's been in a funk ever since his only child (my cousin) got hit by a drunk driver. DON'T YOU DARE CALL HIM A VICTIM, THOUGH! He was merely a "participant", if you will, in the unfolding of an evening of a guilty alcoholic's trip behind the wheel one night last summer.

Right, riiiiiight.
 
2013-03-17 12:36:52 PM  

Mistymtnhop: Glendale: Popcorn Johnny: How does subby know that justice was served, was he an eyewitness to the events? Fact is innocent people are found guilty and vice versa all the time. Nobody here knows if they're rapists or just kids who got some drunken, consensual pussy.

I don't think it matters because the drunkenness automatically makes it non-consensual by law, or something.

She was sixteen! Drunk or not. Sixteen.


16 isn't actually that young; I remember being 16. Seems a lot of people forget.

I'm not defending what these shiatheads did in any way (obviously; it was deplorable), but we have to get out of this mindset that people under 18 (or whatever arbitrary age) are innocent, clueless children.
 
2013-03-17 12:37:12 PM  
Another negro gets put in a cage where he belongs.  What a shocker.
 
2013-03-17 12:38:23 PM  
You'll get over it.
 
2013-03-17 12:38:30 PM  

yelmrog: Not to mention the moniker of "rape crew" that these guys were known by prior to the event.


Seriously?   That's as dumb as writing a bank robbery demand on the back of your pre-printed deposit slip!
 
2013-03-17 12:38:55 PM  
You have got to love the cult of sports.  We dangle a carrot in front of our children's faces of million dollar celebrity status jobs, and select based purely on physical abilities.  Save for few examples, most sports involve little to no intellectual abilities.  Thats not to say some sports aren't less intellectual than others - looking at you football.  Many football players take pride in being called "meatheads" in the U.S.,  they actually celebrate being dumb, and they are the ones for some reason being pruned for careers as multi-millionaires, or at the very least ushered through an easy path to a (squandered) college education.  And we have been doing this for generations.

As for the legal end of things I don't see why we don't look at rape in a similar light as how we look at murder.  I think theres pretty universal acceptance from people of all walks of life that murder warrants harsh punishment, it should not be tolerated in society what-so-ever.  Is rape that far off from murder?  I don't think so.  This is an act that has the potential to permanently alter the emotional health of someone.  But from the perspective of punishing individuals, in the case of both rape and murder alike, great caution should be taken to avoid instances where an innocent person is punished.  If we let our prejudices get in the way, even if they are sort of valid - many football players are total asshole people - we run the risk of taking one act of injustice and replacing it with another.
 
2013-03-17 12:39:07 PM  

captainmaxthedestroyer: If you get shiat-faced at a bar and start talking shiat to somebody, there is a solid chance that something bad is going to happen to you.


If you're sober in a bar and disagree with a drunk, something bad is likely going to happen to you, too.

That's because alcohol and violence go hand-in-hand. Getting your feelings hurt is not justification for assault.
 
2013-03-17 12:39:50 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Bontesla: There's some (very limited) evidence that suggests she was drugged. She had no memory of the nights before and wasn't even aware of what happened until she started hearing about how she was raped.

There was no evidence at all, only her own speculative testimony.

The question of whether a person can be sober enough to consent and drunk enough to later forget consenting was explored at trial.  The upshot is, "Yes, but we can't tell if that's the case because individual tolerances for alcohol vary so much."


It's like you only read a portion of my post...

No. The evidence is the timeline of events pieced together by eye witness testimony. Yes - she ingested alcohol. She likely ingested a significant portion of it. However - eye witness testimony does one helluva job suggesting that maybe she ingested a little more than alcohol. It's certainly plausible - and something that the police never ruled out in the case. They simply had insufficient evidence to establish it.

But given that there were a handful of other accounts in which girls woke up partially disrobed with memory loss is certainly interesting. There's one particular instance in which someone was posting anonymous comments online speculating that she could have been a victim. She said that she doesn't like the taste of beer so she only had one - one that she didn't finish. And that's all she could remember. She woke up almost entirely naked the next day. That's the ultimate light weight.

She also never came forward and gave her testimony to the police - but is that really surprising?

Who the hell knows what happened? Certainly not you or I. But let's not attribute the entire evening to alcohol - especially given the amount of questions surrounding the night's events.
 
2013-03-17 12:39:59 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: adamgreeney:

So rape is ok if they are passed out? They are fair game for anyone who walks by? I think this says a lot about how you get laid.

She should be able to get drunk and not fear rape. Rape is never, at any point, acceptable behavior. Sorry, but it isnt.

In a perfect world?  Yes.

As we live in an imperfect world with people who rape?  No.

But please, attempt the classic ad hominems.  It is quite fun to feel your impotent rage seething through your posts.


You're right, it is not a perfect world. No one is saying it is. But that doesn't make those that are raped, murdered, robbed, etc at fault for the behavior of others. The kids should know, as most people do, that rape is not acceptable. I'm assuming you agree with that right? The girl couldn't know that these guys thought gang rape was their idea of a fun night out, so how did she share any responsibility? Should all women just assume men are going to rape them at any given moment? Because i think that's a little bit of projection on your part, since I can't think of a single male I know personally that would behave like this.
 
2013-03-17 12:40:12 PM  

Uncle Tractor: mikaloyd: [i.imgur.com image 850x529]

Is it possible that those guys really did not know that they were doing something wrong?


Yes.

We live in a very messed up culture. I present the fact a good portion of comments in this thread don't think these guys did anything wrong as evidence of how messed up our society is in raising young men.
 
2013-03-17 12:40:16 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: digital manipulation while intoxicated.


It looks like you misspelled "rape".
 
2013-03-17 12:40:17 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: jso2897:

Having no particular "narrative" here, I wouldn't know that. I actually don't care what happens to any of these people - it' s just academic conjecture to me. I lack the passion to really hold my own in these shout-fests, and usually drop out of them pretty quickly.
---------------
I enjoy seeing the hackles get raised whenever someone is held accountable for their actions.  Of course it is usually just the same two or three who come out but it provides for some fun interactions on the most drunken day of the year.

Personally I'm going to go out and rape a leprechaun today.  It feels right.


Careful, you might get raped by a drunken reveller. Or get run over and killed by one. They won't be responsible, because they're drunk. Have fun!
 
2013-03-17 12:40:23 PM  

adamgreeney: She should be able to get drunk and not fear rape.


Why are you being so helpful to rapists?
 
2013-03-17 12:40:34 PM  

InitialCommentGuy: jso2897:

Having no particular "narrative" here, I wouldn't know that. I actually don't care what happens to any of these people - it' s just academic conjecture to me. I lack the passion to really hold my own in these shout-fests, and usually drop out of them pretty quickly.

I enjoy seeing the hackles get raised whenever someone is held accountable for their actions.  Of course it is usually just the same two or three who come out but it provides for some fun interactions on the most drunken day of the year.

Personally I'm going to go out and rape a leprechaun today.  It feels right.


You don't ever want to rape a leprechaun - it's bad luck, like raping a midget, or spraying graffiti on a mime.
 
2013-03-17 12:40:35 PM  

adamgreeney: Trixie212: adamgreeney: Trixie212: You're allowed to be disgusted. Why do you ignore the fact that I've said they had no right to touch her and are guilty. That doesn't negate the fact that she shares some responsibility.

/don't care if you agree or understand

Saying they had no right to touch her, but she's somehow responsible are TOTALLY conflicting statements. If they had no right, then there isn't any blame to place on her. If she was "asking for it," then that absolves them of some guilt, they just did what she was asking for. There isn't anything to understand here. You're slut shaming and blaming the victim because she got drunk, and possibly drugged.

I said she SHARED responsibility, not that she was totally responsible. If you want to call that slut shaming, so be it.

How does she share in anything? She was passed out! She couldn't have done anything if she tried to. Where exactly is her responsibility.

InitialCommentGuy: adamgreeney:

No matter what the situation, no one should think that raping an unconscious person is acceptable. It isn't. We should all be evolved enough and have the smallest shred of morality so that when we see an unconscious person, we don't jump to raping them. No one has the right to violate anyone else, regardless of the circumstances. There aren't shades of gray here. She didn't do anything wrong, and was possibly drugged, which renders your point moot. Why so staunchly try to find her at fault here?

And yet I cannot be the controller of every individual.  While the kids committed a crime she provided opportunity for said crime to occur through her actions.

They could have raped her if she was stone cold sober too, or any other girl they ran across while horny. She simply existed, which I don't think most people feel is offering opportunity for a crime.


Her responsibility was to not get so farking drunk that she was no longer in control of her actions.
 
2013-03-17 12:40:36 PM  

farkplug: captainmaxthedestroyer:

The point I'm making is that I believe there are no victims when alcohol and drugs involved.  There can still be guilty parties, but there are no victims.

Thanks, I'll make sure to pass on your point to my uncle the next time I see him, which isn't that often these days, because he's been in a funk ever since his only child (my cousin) got hit by a drunk driver. DON'T YOU DARE CALL HIM A VICTIM, THOUGH! He was merely a "participant", if you will, in the unfolding of an evening of a guilty alcoholic's trip behind the wheel one night last summer.

Right, riiiiiight.


You are missing context.  If both drivers were drinking, there would be no victim (unless there was a sober passenger) but they would still both be guilty.  What happened to your cousin was indeed a tragedy and they were indeed a victim.

You're supporting my point, thank you.
 
2013-03-17 12:41:26 PM  
captainmaxthedestroyer:

You, sir, are a monster.

People are inherently good at heart and this is a helpful and caring world.  We instinctively look out for each other, that's what we do - we're humans.  It's not our responsibility to lookout for ourselves.  We're evolved beyond that.


Sadly this is what a lot of people believe.  The world is not some bright, sunny drum circle... It has its points of light and darkness.  We must be aware and protect ourselves as we go through life.  I used to do work with refugees from (country I won't name because it would date me) in (again, won't).  They understood this idea clearly having come from a terrible place, and acted accordingly.  But again this is America, where we must indulge every impulse immediately, and expect others to keep us safe from harm if we decide to overindulge because we are all a great big brotherhood.

Of course one of the defendants would have been strung up in Steubenville 50 years ago if he happened to glance at the victim, but that is neither here nor there.
 
2013-03-17 12:42:08 PM  

adamgreeney: InitialCommentGuy: adamgreeney:

No, but anyone defending rapists and justifying their actions is a sociopath. We don't hear anyone defend Jeffery Dahmer because of his different "ideology," we just accept he's a sociopath, and anyone that thinks what he did is ok is probably one too. You're defending the brutal violation of a teenage girl that videotaped and distributed for bragging rights. That isn't ideology, it's you showing us that you're a sociopath.

No, I am pointing out the fact that you should not walk in a room of dangerous individuals without protecting yourself.  But again, please go on about how in your limited white knight mind the concept of nullification of responsibility exists for women who decide to drink to excess in a dangerous location.

No matter what the situation, no one should think that raping an unconscious person is acceptable. It isn't. We should all be evolved enough and have the smallest shred of morality so that when we see an unconscious person, we don't jump to raping them. No one has the right to violate anyone else, regardless of the circumstances. There aren't shades of gray here. She didn't do anything wrong, and was possibly drugged, which renders your point moot. Why so staunchly try to find her at fault here?


"morality" is not genetically passed on, it is learned. imho
the super-ego (that which keeps the ID's primal urges in check to fit into society's rules and expectations), much be nurtured and cultivated.

nice shows like leave it to beaver used to reinforce this in children sitting in front of TVs all day.

now kids are molded by bill clinton, bart simpson and other delinquents. is it any surprise how they turn out?
 
2013-03-17 12:42:47 PM  

Bontesla: BarkingUnicorn: Bontesla: There's some (very limited) evidence that suggests she was drugged. She had no memory of the nights before and wasn't even aware of what happened until she started hearing about how she was raped.

There was no evidence at all, only her own speculative testimony.

The question of whether a person can be sober enough to consent and drunk enough to later forget consenting was explored at trial.  The upshot is, "Yes, but we can't tell if that's the case because individual tolerances for alcohol vary so much."

It's like you only read a portion of my post...

No. The evidence is the timeline of events pieced together by eye witness testimony. Yes - she ingested alcohol. She likely ingested a significant portion of it. However - eye witness testimony does one helluva job suggesting that maybe she ingested a little more than alcohol. It's certainly plausible - and something that the police never ruled out in the case. They simply had insufficient evidence to establish it.

But given that there were a handful of other accounts in which girls woke up partially disrobed with memory loss is certainly interesting. There's one particular instance in which someone was posting anonymous comments online speculating that she could have been a victim. She said that she doesn't like the taste of beer so she only had one - one that she didn't finish. And that's all she could remember. She woke up almost entirely naked the next day. That's the ultimate light weight.

She also never came forward and gave her testimony to the police - but is that really surprising?

Who the hell knows what happened? Certainly not you or I. But let's not attribute the entire evening to alcohol - especially given the amount of questions surrounding the night's events.


Which is why *I* am not engaging in unfounded speculation.
 
2013-03-17 12:42:58 PM  

tarheel07: Enjoy getting raped in prison, scumbags.


People like you are why I think people should choose judges over juries. Seriously "enjoy getting raped?"... you think raping 16 year olds is ok, but only the ones who did bad things? Torture, violence, and rape are why we get such a high recidivism rate... morons like you get giddy with the thought of prison being a hellscape that grooms better criminals, then wonder why the prisoners are so vindictive towards society at large when they get out... more often than hot though, asshats like you don't wonder that, you just hyper-simplify complex problems with statements like "if you didn't wanna get raped and stabbed, you shouldn't have broken the law" without ever thinking just how much of a Saudi Arabian tool that makes you sound like.

The reality is you sick farks support Sharia law and you don't even know it.
 
2013-03-17 12:43:07 PM  
I started college young, so when I was her age I was starting my freshman year.  And drinking hard for the first time.  I didn't really know what my limits were.  So that first week, I went to a party, drank a lot of beer, and started flirting with a guy (an athlete).  I even told him where I lived.  And then on the way back to my dorm later, by myself, I decided it would be a good idea to take a nap on the steps of a building.  Along came that same guy -- pretty drunk himself -- woke me up, got me back on my feet, and walked me all the way to my room where he could hand me off safely to my roommate.

Just remember -- people always have options.  Any one of us can always help someone who needs help.

 It's not "understandable" they did this, it's not "her bad judgment," that's at fault -- it's their shiatty upbringings.  And apparently those of everyone at that party.
 
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