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(Memphis Commercial Appeal)   Mississippi just gave a gigantic middle finger to the First Amendment   (commercialappeal.com) divider line 220
    More: Scary, Mississippi, First Amendment, school prayer, Liberty Counsel, legal representation, establishment clause  
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13746 clicks; posted to Politics » on 17 Mar 2013 at 11:16 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-17 11:20:31 AM
FTA: "Republican Gov. Phil Bryant signed the law Thursday, and it takes effect July 1. It says all Mississippi school districts must adopt a policy to allow a "limited public forum" at school events such as football games or morning announcements, to let students express religious beliefs."

I'm sure once we bring God back into schools nothing bad will happen in Mississippi ever again.
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/12/14/1339971/huckabee-says-c on necticut-school-massacre-occurred-because-we-removed-god-from-our-scho ols/
 
2013-03-17 11:21:31 AM
A well organized "allah akbar" chant at a local high school football game would put an end to this law overnight.
 
2013-03-17 11:22:01 AM
This is gonna open the door for all those Wiccans, Islamic Republicans, Scientologists, and Fuller Brush salesmen to exploit our young people and offend our ears.
 
2013-03-17 11:24:45 AM
Seriously. THIS is the 21st Century, right? Science supposedly at an all-time high, computers never more powerful, exciting research in medicine, a complex robot exploring Mars?

WTF and WHY TF are we being dragged, kicking and screaming into all this religious, idiotic bullshiat??!! Are things so good now that we're not questioning how the electrons reach our faces through the interwebs and therefore it's all God God God?

Holy fark, I had no idea that idiotic could fit so nicely with patriotic. I love this Country, I truly do. Stop forcibly lobotomizing yourself, USA.
 
2013-03-17 11:25:28 AM
Am I crazy or is this not a big deal? It's not forcing people to pray, it's not forcing people to worship a particular God, it's just making the avenue available to students who wish to have some form of individual religious expression at a school event - which is exactly what the First Amendment was designed to protect.

I'm fairly progressive on issues, but the ACLU is in the wrong here:
"Bear Atwood, legal director for American Civil Liberties Union of Mississippi, said she thinks the law "has serious constitutional issues." She said the ACLU is likely to file a lawsuit to challenge it, if there are reports that proselytizing is taking place in public schools."

What part of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" doesn't make sense?
 
2013-03-17 11:27:07 AM

Znuh: Seriously. THIS is the 21st Century, right? Science supposedly at an all-time high, computers never more powerful, exciting research in medicine, a complex robot exploring Mars?

WTF and WHY TF are we being dragged, kicking and screaming into all this religious, idiotic bullshiat??!! Are things so good now that we're not questioning how the electrons reach our faces through the interwebs and therefore it's all God God God?


One word: Mississippi.

I still think they're struggling to get past the 1960's.
 
2013-03-17 11:28:36 AM

Spaztictacular: Am I crazy or is this not a big deal? It's not forcing people to pray, it's not forcing people to worship a particular God, it's just making the avenue available to students who wish to have some form of individual religious expression at a school event - which is exactly what the First Amendment was designed to protect.

I'm fairly progressive on issues, but the ACLU is in the wrong here:
"Bear Atwood, legal director for American Civil Liberties Union of Mississippi, said she thinks the law "has serious constitutional issues." She said the ACLU is likely to file a lawsuit to challenge it, if there are reports that proselytizing is taking place in public schools."

What part of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" doesn't make sense?


It depends entirely upon the implementation. If a public official leads a crowd in the Lord's Prayer, that's unconstitutional. If they simply give a "moment of silence", that is acceptable. The law is vague (intentionally), and could allow either of the above scenarios.
 
2013-03-17 11:29:52 AM
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6%3A5-8&version= NI V

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him"

Exactly just who do the liberals think they are telling Christians that they should not pray in public schools?!
 
2013-03-17 11:30:20 AM
After a couple of quick google searches, it appears this law lets schools declare whatever they want as "limited public forum," then choose a student to speak during the event. The student can pray if he/she wants, and the school disavows that it's "state-sponsored" prayer.

So, grats, Mississippi. You're now hiding behind students to get school prayer into whatever event you want. Classy.
 
2013-03-17 11:30:20 AM

Spaztictacular: Am I crazy or is this not a big deal? It's not forcing people to pray, it's not forcing people to worship a particular God, it's just making the avenue available to students who wish to have some form of individual religious expression at a school event - which is exactly what the First Amendment was designed to protect.

I'm fairly progressive on issues, but the ACLU is in the wrong here:
"Bear Atwood, legal director for American Civil Liberties Union of Mississippi, said she thinks the law "has serious constitutional issues." She said the ACLU is likely to file a lawsuit to challenge it, if there are reports that proselytizing is taking place in public schools."

What part of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment ofreligion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" doesn't make sense?



It is definitely a big deal. Students can already engage in student-led prayer, but not part of structured school activities. The difference is that this is about the school leading and structuring (Christian only) prayer, which is a clear violation of the Establishment Clause.
 
2013-03-17 11:34:24 AM
We just have to sit around and wait for the Boomers to die off and all this crap will go away. The only reason this garbage gets any traction is there is enough old racist white people to vote it through. The younger generations seem to embrace freedom a lot better than the boomers that pretty much had everything handed to them. Spoiled little children in old decaying bodies.
 
2013-03-17 11:35:39 AM

hawcian: After a couple of quick google searches, it appears this law lets schools declare whatever they want as "limited public forum," then choose a student to speak during the event. The student can pray if he/she wants, and the school disavows that it's "state-sponsored" prayer.

So, grats, Mississippi. You're now hiding behind students to get school prayer into whatever event you want. Classy.


Not quite right.  They are allowing students to be the leads on getting school prayer into whatever events they want.  And yes, it is classy.
 
2013-03-17 11:35:49 AM
Why is it that loudest religious always have the weakest faith and need reassuring every minute?
 
2013-03-17 11:36:46 AM

EnviroDude: Not quite right.  They are allowing students to be the leads on getting school prayer into whatever events they want.  And yes, it is classy.


You know, compared to the quality of trolls we have had as of late.. I must say I've missed you.
 
2013-03-17 11:36:47 AM
I guess the Jews, Muslims, atheists, etc. should just join in and pretend to pray. That way they won't be singled out and get their asses kicked for not being true Americans.
 
2013-03-17 11:38:16 AM

EnviroDude: hawcian: After a couple of quick google searches, it appears this law lets schools declare whatever they want as "limited public forum," then choose a student to speak during the event. The student can pray if he/she wants, and the school disavows that it's "state-sponsored" prayer.

So, grats, Mississippi. You're now hiding behind students to get school prayer into whatever event you want. Classy.

Not quite right.  They are allowing students to be the leads on getting school prayer into whatever events they want.  And yes, it is classy.


Oh yea, I'm sure they'll totally leave up to the students. There won't be any undue influence, noooooo.
 
2013-03-17 11:38:26 AM
I would love to organize a group that went to these places and read from the Koran. Or blaze a huge joint.
 
2013-03-17 11:39:49 AM
Mississippi just gave a gigantic middle finger to the First Amendment

Not the first time. Not the last.
 
2013-03-17 11:41:23 AM

Lost Thought 00: It depends entirely upon the implementation. If a public official leads a crowd in the Lord's Prayer, that's unconstitutional. If they simply give a "moment of silence", that is acceptable. The law is vague (intentionally), and could allow either of the above scenarios.


bujin: It is definitely a big deal. Students can already engage in student-led prayer, but not part of structured school activities. The difference is that this is about the school leading and structuring (Christian only) prayer, which is a clear violation of the Establishment Clause.


There seems to be a bit of confusion over what the bill actually says... 
http://www.wjtv.com/story/21643486/gov-bryant-to-sign-school-prayer- bi ll

"The act states that voluntary student expression of religious viewpoints in public schools is permitted, that public school districts shall allow religious expression in class assignments and that students will have the freedom to organize religious groups and activities in public schools."
 
2013-03-17 11:45:31 AM
encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
I never get tired of this pie chart.
 
2013-03-17 11:48:01 AM

Spaztictacular: "The act states that voluntary student expression of religious viewpoints in public schools is permitted, that public school districts shall allow religious expression in class assignments and that students will have the freedom to organize religious groups and activities in public schools."


Here is the real bill, not a shiatty summary

See Article2, which specifically gives permission for student led prayer during football games and morning announcements. Doing a prayer during public announcements by the school is clearly unconstitutional, that's where the ACLU comes in.
 
2013-03-17 11:48:20 AM
Mississippi the home of the American Taliban?
 
2013-03-17 11:48:24 AM

Spaztictacular: , that public school districts shall allow religious expression in class assignments


Maybe I'm reading this wrong, and I welcome correction if I am, but doesn't this basically allow a fundie student to turn in any science assignments with 'God did it, can I have my A now please?'
 
2013-03-17 11:48:58 AM

Mrtraveler01: Znuh: Seriously. THIS is the 21st Century, right? Science supposedly at an all-time high, computers never more powerful, exciting research in medicine, a complex robot exploring Mars?

WTF and WHY TF are we being dragged, kicking and screaming into all this religious, idiotic bullshiat??!! Are things so good now that we're not questioning how the electrons reach our faces through the interwebs and therefore it's all God God God?

One word: Mississippi.

I still think they're struggling to get past the 1960's.


1860's perhaps. They just made slavery illegal a month ago.
 
2013-03-17 11:49:01 AM
How long until a muslim is allowed to lead a prayer at the end of morning announcements?
 
2013-03-17 11:51:15 AM

Arachnophobe: Spaztictacular: , that public school districts shall allow religious expression in class assignments

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, and I welcome correction if I am, but doesn't this basically allow a fundie student to turn in any science assignments with 'God did it, can I have my A now please?'


No, the law specifically states that the work shall be judged by normal academic standards.
 
2013-03-17 11:52:01 AM

Spaztictacular: "The act states that voluntary student expression of religious viewpoints in public schools is permitted, that public school districts shall allow religious expression in class assignments and that students will have the freedom to organize religious groups and activities in public schools."


Ah, that sounds fine, but who selects the student message from the volunteers? I'd bet good money that the Sikh kid isn't getting picked. Also, if you have morning announcements and then the kid "voluntarily" recites the Lord's Prayer at the end every day, how is that not a school sponsored prayer?

You have the absolute right to practice your religion in private and in your chosen houses of worship, but as they say "your right to swinging your fists ends at my face" so too your right to conduct a prayer ends when I'm forced to hear it.
 
2013-03-17 11:52:55 AM

Lost Thought 00: Spaztictacular: "The act states that voluntary student expression of religious viewpoints in public schools is permitted, that public school districts shall allow religious expression in class assignments and that students will have the freedom to organize religious groups and activities in public schools."

Here is the real bill, not a shiatty summary

See Article2, which specifically gives permission for student led prayer during football games, any other sporting event, graduation, morning announcements, and whatever else the district feels like. Doing a prayer during public announcements by the school is clearly unconstitutional, that's where the ACLU comes in.


FTFY.

Also, we should mention the "disclaimer" at every event that says it's totally not the school who specifically picked the student (limited to class officers, football captains, and whatever the hell the district feels like), it's all the at the student's prerogative.

Honestly, the rest of the law feels almost redundant. I can't believe students don't have those rights already, and if they don't, I wouldn't mind this bill with the public forum thing removed.
 
2013-03-17 11:53:52 AM

Lost Thought 00: Spaztictacular: "The act states that voluntary student expression of religious viewpoints in public schools is permitted, that public school districts shall allow religious expression in class assignments and that students will have the freedom to organize religious groups and activities in public schools."

Here is the real bill, not a shiatty summary

See Article2, which specifically gives permission for student led prayer during football games and morning announcements. Doing a prayer during public announcements by the school is clearly unconstitutional, that's where the ACLU comes in.


The question will be whether or not the courts would determine that allowing for student-led prayer at school events equals school-sponsored prayer. One, in theory, should be protected by the constitution while the other is unconstitutional. It'll be an interesting fight, for sure.

I think it'd be hilarious, actually, for a Jewish or Wiccan students (because if there is an ACLU in Mississippi there is at least one Wiccan) to lead a prayer because then, if the school disallows it - then boom, the school is breaking the law.
 
2013-03-17 11:54:05 AM

Spaztictacular: Am I crazy


yes
 
2013-03-17 11:54:06 AM

Lost Thought 00: Arachnophobe: Spaztictacular: , that public school districts shall allow religious expression in class assignments

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, and I welcome correction if I am, but doesn't this basically allow a fundie student to turn in any science assignments with 'God did it, can I have my A now please?'

No, the law specifically states that the work shall be judged by normal academic standards.


That's something at least, thank you for the clarification.
 
2013-03-17 11:54:28 AM

hawcian: Lost Thought 00: Spaztictacular: "The act states that voluntary student expression of religious viewpoints in public schools is permitted, that public school districts shall allow religious expression in class assignments and that students will have the freedom to organize religious groups and activities in public schools."

Here is the real bill, not a shiatty summary

See Article2, which specifically gives permission for student led prayer during football games, any other sporting event, graduation, morning announcements, and whatever else the district feels like. Doing a prayer during public announcements by the school is clearly unconstitutional, that's where the ACLU comes in.

FTFY.

Also, we should mention the "disclaimer" at every event that says it's totally not the school who specifically picked the student (limited to class officers, football captains, and whatever the hell the district feels like), it's all the at the student's prerogative.

Honestly, the rest of the law feels almost redundant. I can't believe students don't have those rights already, and if they don't, I wouldn't mind this bill with the public forum thing removed.


Very true. The purpose of the bill is the public forum section, though. Everything else is just fluff intended to distract from the core purpose
 
2013-03-17 11:54:31 AM
Meanwhile, Fark just gave a giant middle finger to TFA's server.
 
2013-03-17 11:56:09 AM

Lost Thought 00: Spaztictacular: "The act states that voluntary student expression of religious viewpoints in public schools is permitted, that public school districts shall allow religious expression in class assignments and that students will have the freedom to organize religious groups and activities in public schools."

Here is the real bill, not a shiatty summary

See Article2, which specifically gives permission for student led prayer during football games and morning announcements. Doing a prayer during public announcements by the school is clearly unconstitutional, that's where the ACLU comes in.



Exactly. You can't build religious practice into your school structure. I'm a HS Principal. I have a Bible study club in my school, which I approved using the same rules as other clubs, except that the adult advisor has strict instructions that he supervises but takes no active role. That's very different than my allowing them to give AM announcements, as the effect is an implicit endorsement of the "official" religion of my school (which is an arm of the government).
 
2013-03-17 11:56:12 AM

Mrtraveler01: One word: Mississippi.

I still think they're struggling to get past the 1960's. 1860s


FTFY
 
2013-03-17 11:56:33 AM

Lost Thought 00: Spaztictacular: "The act states that voluntary student expression of religious viewpoints in public schools is permitted, that public school districts shall allow religious expression in class assignments and that students will have the freedom to organize religious groups and activities in public schools."

Here is the real bill, not a shiatty summary

See Article2, which specifically gives permission for student led prayer during football games and morning announcements. Doing a prayer during public announcements by the school is clearly unconstitutional, that's where the ACLU comes in.


My (small-town Texas) high school had the student Christian group do a bible verse reading every morning during the morning announcements. When I asked if I the student skeptics club (of which there were about four members) could do a reading as well, I was told there was no room in the lineup and they couldn't let just anyone do an announcement.

And that's the problem with this law; no matter how couched it is in "student led" and "student choice", the basic purpose is to allow Christian expression and nothing else.
 
2013-03-17 11:57:23 AM

Spaztictacular: Lost Thought 00: It depends entirely upon the implementation. If a public official leads a crowd in the Lord's Prayer, that's unconstitutional. If they simply give a "moment of silence", that is acceptable. The law is vague (intentionally), and could allow either of the above scenarios.

bujin: It is definitely a big deal. Students can already engage in student-led prayer, but not part of structured school activities. The difference is that this is about the school leading and structuring (Christian only) prayer, which is a clear violation of the Establishment Clause.

There seems to be a bit of confusion over what the bill actually says...
http://www.wjtv.com/story/21643486/gov-bryant-to-sign-school-prayer- bi ll

"The act states that voluntary student expression of religious viewpoints in public schools is permitted, that public school districts shall allow religious expression in class assignments and that students will have the freedom to organize religious groups and activities in public schools."


As a student, would I have the freedom not to participate in this grandstanding bullshiat?
 
2013-03-17 11:57:26 AM
When Christians say they'll pray for you, they are lying.
 
2013-03-17 11:57:39 AM

Spaztictacular: Am I crazy or is this not a big deal? It's not forcing people to pray, it's not forcing people to worship a particular God, it's just making the avenue available to students who wish to have some form of individual religious expression at a school event - which is exactly what the First Amendment was designed to protect.

I'm fairly progressive on issues, but the ACLU is in the wrong here:
"Bear Atwood, legal director for American Civil Liberties Union of Mississippi, said she thinks the law "has serious constitutional issues." She said the ACLU is likely to file a lawsuit to challenge it, if there are reports that proselytizing is taking place in public schools."

What part of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" doesn't make sense?


Being forced or compelled to pray is not "free exercise."
 
2013-03-17 11:58:03 AM

Spaztictacular: if there are reports that proselytizing is taking place in public schools.


There's your answer.  Students should be able to attend public school without being subjected to proselytizing.
 
2013-03-17 11:59:03 AM

Spaztictacular: Lost Thought 00: Spaztictacular: "The act states that voluntary student expression of religious viewpoints in public schools is permitted, that public school districts shall allow religious expression in class assignments and that students will have the freedom to organize religious groups and activities in public schools."

Here is the real bill, not a shiatty summary

See Article2, which specifically gives permission for student led prayer during football games and morning announcements. Doing a prayer during public announcements by the school is clearly unconstitutional, that's where the ACLU comes in.

The question will be whether or not the courts would determine that allowing for student-led prayer at school events equals school-sponsored prayer. One, in theory, should be protected by the constitution while the other is unconstitutional. It'll be an interesting fight, for sure.

I think it'd be hilarious, actually, for a Jewish or Wiccan students (because if there is an ACLU in Mississippi there is at least one Wiccan) to lead a prayer because then, if the school disallows it - then boom, the school is breaking the law.



No, student-led prayer at games has been directly found to be unconstitutional. While it may be led by kids, if you provide the platform / structure / time in your official program, you are endorsing religion.
 
2013-03-17 12:00:47 PM

Lost Thought 00: A well organized "allah akbar" chant at a local high school football game would put an end to this law overnight.


Yeah, right.  That's the sort of thing that the community will solve with a good old-fashioned lynching or firebombing.
 
2013-03-17 12:01:52 PM
I don't think it should be legal for a private organization to pay to defend a law in court.  It provides a direct incentive for corrupt and incompetent legislation.  I know lobbyists can already guy legislation but this makes it a bit more blatant.
 
2013-03-17 12:02:49 PM

Spaztictacular: Am I crazy or is this not a big deal? It's not forcing people to pray, it's not forcing people to worship a particular God, it's just making the avenue available to students who wish to have some form of individual religious expression at a school event - which is exactly what the First Amendment was designed to protect.

I'm fairly progressive on issues, but the ACLU is in the wrong here:
"Bear Atwood, legal director for American Civil Liberties Union of Mississippi, said she thinks the law "has serious constitutional issues." She said the ACLU is likely to file a lawsuit to challenge it, if there are reports that proselytizing is taking place in public schools."

What part of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" doesn't make sense?


http://www.jewsonfirst.org/06b/indianriver.html

That's why.
 
2013-03-17 12:03:06 PM

IrateShadow: Lost Thought 00: A well organized "allah akbar" chant at a local high school football game would put an end to this law overnight.

Yeah, right.  That's the sort of thing that the community will solve with a good old-fashioned lynching or firebombing.


Then the chanters should cover their heads in white sheets to protect their identities.
 
2013-03-17 12:04:07 PM

Spaztictacular: Am I crazy or is this not a big deal? It's not forcing people to pray, it's not forcing people to worship a particular God, it's just making the avenue available to students who wish to have some form of individual religious expression at a school event - which is exactly what the First Amendment was designed to protect.

I'm fairly progressive on issues, but the ACLU is in the wrong here:
"Bear Atwood, legal director for American Civil Liberties Union of Mississippi, said she thinks the law "has serious constitutional issues." She said the ACLU is likely to file a lawsuit to challenge it, if there are reports that proselytizing is taking place in public schools."

What part of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" doesn't make sense?


The school wasn't limiting their right to speak about or practice their religion before. Now they've given them a venue in which to speak about it. The constitution doesn't demand anyone, especially a federal funded school, to offer a venue for others to express their religious beliefs through.
 
2013-03-17 12:06:03 PM

Lord Dimwit: When I asked if I the student skeptics club (of which there were about four members) could do a reading as well, I was told there was no room in the lineup and they couldn't let just anyone do an announcement.


did you sue them??
PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
standing is such a PAIN in the ass when it comes to suing these asshats.

Otherwise, the rest of america would have sued these tards back to the stone age and this shiat would be long gone.

/and the states' rights tards wonder why the feds get involved. it is because the states are too stupid to follow the constitution.
 
2013-03-17 12:09:30 PM

Lost Thought 00: A well organized "allah akbar" chant at a local high school football game would put an end to this law overnight.


THIS!

EnviroDude: quite right. They are allowing students to be the leads on getting school prayer into whatever events they want. And yes, it is classy.


we'll see how classy they act when some muslim students decide they want to get their prayer in school.
 
2013-03-17 12:10:15 PM
damn it, when will these idiot politicians learn all these laws do is waste time and money on unwinnabale court cases?
 
2013-03-17 12:10:53 PM

Graffito: Spaztictacular: if there are reports that proselytizing is taking place in public schools.

There's your answer.  Students should be able to attend public school without being subjected to proselytizing.


Student-led prayer doesn't equal being recruited to Christianity. 

Besides, like I said, I think this is a great trap that the state is laying for itself because while the law itself I don't believe is unconstitutional given the prohibition of expression portion of the first amendment, the execution of the law will ultimately lead to unconstitutional segregation. Yes, I understand that Mississippi is full of bible-thumpers and creationists, but what I don't want to have happen on the opposite side is that people become afraid to provide for expression of religion - all religion - because that is perceived as an endorsement of religion. It's just as Orwellian.
 
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