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(Chicago Sun-Times)   New 787 Dreamliner batteries will totally not catch fire, says Boeing Engineering Vice President Hindenberg   (suntimes.com) divider line 46
    More: Followup, Boeing Engineering Vice President Hindenberg, Boeing, Dreamliner, flight test, All Nippon Airways, Japan Airlines, airliners, flight planning  
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1264 clicks; posted to Business » on 17 Mar 2013 at 9:57 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-17 06:55:23 AM
upload.wikimedia.org
LOLWUT?
 
2013-03-17 06:59:18 AM
To read the rest of my comment, please register for free or, if you already have an account, LOGIN to your account.
 
2013-03-17 09:01:31 AM

Barfmaker: To read the rest of my comment, please register for free or, if you already have an account, LOGIN to your account.


firefox and adblock
 
2013-03-17 09:04:42 AM
i.chzbgr.com

/You idiot! You'll ignite the helium on the Dreamliner!
 
2013-03-17 09:20:55 AM
Hey Boeing, hows that outsourcing working out for you now.
 
2013-03-17 10:03:57 AM
Need a spokeperson? Why not Hindenberg?
 
2013-03-17 10:15:08 AM
Quick, to the HindenPeter.
 
2013-03-17 10:15:54 AM

Generation_D: Hey Boeing, hows that outsourcing working out for you now.


This. Pinnacle of engineering to "You want fries with that. From the lowest bidder. Who we found under a rock."
 
2013-03-17 10:21:45 AM

Znuh: Generation_D: Hey Boeing, hows that outsourcing working out for you now.

This. Pinnacle of engineering to "You want fries with that. From the lowest bidder. Who we found under a rock."


They don't care take a look at their stock performance so far this year
 
2013-03-17 10:23:45 AM

Oldiron_79: Quick, to the HindenPeter.


How can you afford these things!?
 
2013-03-17 10:36:32 AM

Znuh: Generation_D: Hey Boeing, hows that outsourcing working out for you now.

This. Pinnacle of engineering to "You want fries with that. From the lowest bidder. Who we found under a rock."


Enh, the entire battery industry is filled with lying scumbags, they could have gone with the high bid and still gotten this.  A lot of battery companies can deliver you a few hundred perfect batteries for your prototypes, but their quality goes off a cliff when mass production is required.

I get how Boeing's design is better, but they may have tried to get it out the door a generation before they should have.
 
2013-03-17 10:39:23 AM
"Dreamliner Batteries" would be a good name for a band.
 
2013-03-17 10:39:58 AM

ha-ha-guy:  A lot of battery companies can deliver you a few hundred perfect batteries for your prototypes, but their quality goes off a cliff when mass production is required.

I get how Boeing's design is better, but they may have tried to get it out the door a generation before they should have.


That's seriously interesting to know. Back when I was in Aerospace, we did our best to eliminate contributors to catastrophic failure; if it's endemic to the industry, that's absolutely awful.

And agreed. I don't think things were fully baked when they left the hangar. I also read how management were overriding the Engineering teams again chanting the mantra of Cost and Time.
 
2013-03-17 10:46:20 AM

Znuh: That's seriously interesting to know. Back when I was in Aerospace, we did our best to eliminate contributors to catastrophic failure; if it's endemic to the industry, that's absolutely awful.


Yeah the entire industry just isn't mature yet.  We ran two suppliers into bankruptcy just trying to have them design and supply batteries for the Volt.  Eventually LG Chem was able to come up with a product, but we killed off two other companies in the process.  The whole industry always has a bit of "it's a trap" vibe.  You can design some awesome stuff that looks great on the test track, but you can't actually produce it.
 
2013-03-17 11:00:10 AM

Znuh: ha-ha-guy:  A lot of battery companies can deliver you a few hundred perfect batteries for your prototypes, but their quality goes off a cliff when mass production is required.

I get how Boeing's design is better, but they may have tried to get it out the door a generation before they should have.

That's seriously interesting to know. Back when I was in Aerospace, we did our best to eliminate contributors to catastrophic failure; if it's endemic to the industry, that's absolutely awful.

And agreed. I don't think things were fully baked when they left the hangar. I also read how management were overriding the Engineering teams again chanting the mantra of Cost and Time.


There's no way to know from this distance how much Boeing is handing control over to senior management and outsourced design, but I do know this. If they drop one because of an on-board fire after all this, the plane is going to be The Boeing Deathliner from that point forward.

Same sh*t that killed off McDonnell, ironically enough.

Seattle absolutely cannot stand what the McDonnell philosophy has done to old Boeing. You can bash the unions all you want, but Seattle's culture up here was to retain design within the company. Now you send design out to the outsourcers, and then insist the outsourcers design be used regardless of engineering buyoff, from the sound of it in some cases. The result can't help but be less sure.

Design beta then ship might be fine for software but if its airplanes you could wind up killing somebody.

I wish Senior Boeing Management had an effing clue, but the last 20 years have given ample proof that they don't.

// Not in a union
 
2013-03-17 11:09:01 AM

Generation_D: I wish Senior Boeing Management had an effing clue, but the last 20 years have given ample proof that they don't.

// Not in a union


Which is a colossal, painful thing to watch. I used to drive past their hangars in Washington in the early 90s and seriously feel proud of the Engineering skill and 'Made in USA'. Like working with Lockheed, you felt like you were working with some of the best and brightest.

Excellence should never be on the chopping block, ever. Just because you can make things cheaper by sending it out, doesn't make it better. Not to mention how utterly difficult it is to put together a team of Engineers who genuinely know their stuff, and also know how to work together to overcome problems.

As you say, from this distance, it's hard to tell. However, the symptoms are there.
 
2013-03-17 11:34:16 AM
Actually, they may still catch fire, but they are putting them in a sealed steel box so that they can't keep burning.
 
2013-03-17 11:41:24 AM

KarmicDisaster: Actually, they may still catch fire, but they are putting them in a sealed steel box so that they can't keep you can't smell them burning.


FTFY.

/this whole thing kind of makes me wonder what new and fascinating problems the A350 will have
 
2013-03-17 11:51:19 AM

ha-ha-guy: We ran two suppliers into bankruptcy just trying to have them design and supply batteries for the Volt.


I dont understand this.
The suppliers had the choice of requiring payment for research and design. The companies either didnt get enough investment money or under-estimated what it would cost. Either way, it was the battery company's fault for failing.
 
2013-03-17 11:52:47 AM

Robo Beat: /this whole thing kind of makes me wonder what new and fascinating problems the A350 will have


I thought that the a350 had more hydraulics and less fly by wire. so they would have LESS of this problem.
 
2013-03-17 11:56:07 AM

Dick's Knot: "Dreamliner Batteries" would be a good name for a band.


"THEY'RE ON FIRE!"
 
2013-03-17 12:22:21 PM

Generation_D: Hey Boeing, hows that outsourcing working out for you now.


It's not like they were getting world-class employees when they were letting  Americans do it. The former Wichita arm of Boeing that is now called Spirit just got in trouble for firing like 35 engineers/drafters who were so lazy and/or incompetent they couldn't avoid getting fired by Spirit, and their union is throwing a shiat-fit because HR wasn't notified in triplicate or whatever. And this is the engineer's union, which is literally like a small, jumping chiwawa compared to the shop union.
 
2013-03-17 12:28:23 PM

namatad: ha-ha-guy: We ran two suppliers into bankruptcy just trying to have them design and supply batteries for the Volt.

I dont understand this.
The suppliers had the choice of requiring payment for research and design. The companies either didnt get enough investment money or under-estimated what it would cost. Either way, it was the battery company's fault for failing.


Requiring payment for the R&D means you don't get the status of "lowest bid" anymore.  What the engineers say it will cost is often trimmed down a bit just to get the bid accepted.
 
2013-03-17 12:29:55 PM

ski9600: Dick's Knot: "Dreamliner Batteries" would be a good name for a band.

"THEY'RE ON FIRE!"


Great White cover band?
 
2013-03-17 01:36:51 PM
Znuh

Excellence should never be on the chopping block, ever.

DO A BARREL ROLL!

// "Selling airplanes"
 
2013-03-17 01:41:57 PM
Years ago, a Dreamliner on a test flight caught on fire and had to land at the local airport.http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/01/boeings-dreamliner-ba tteries-i nherently-unsafe-and-yours-may-be-too/
/csb
 
2013-03-17 01:42:01 PM
FTA- "the company sees commercial flights of its grounded 787 jets resuming "within weeks" even though it has not pinpointed the cause of battery overheating"

WTF?
 
2013-03-17 01:52:55 PM

Basily Gourt: FTA- "the company sees commercial flights of its grounded 787 jets resuming "within weeks" even though it has not pinpointed the cause of battery overheating"

WTF?


Lithium batteries do that, and they can burn in atmospheric air. Maybe some rare but weird internal structure can develop while they are being used. It is a problem with the tech. They used NiCd batteries in planes up to now, which can get really hot but aren't as explody, but they are heavy! So they are trying to cut some weight, but maybe never will be able to make Lithium more than 99.999999% safe. So they are going to put them in a metal box so they can't get air to burn if they go.  I don't know how that factors into the weight savings.
 
2013-03-17 02:10:37 PM
It's not a "fire", it's merely a self-initiated rapid thermal dispersal of internal substances in the form of a scalding aerosol plume.
 
2013-03-17 02:22:52 PM

Znuh: don't think things were fully baked when they left the hangar


Some of them are fully baked now.
 
2013-03-17 02:36:34 PM

Robo Beat: /this whole thing kind of makes me wonder what new and fascinating problems the A350 will have


The A350 ditched plans to use this new battery and are going back to the old.
 
2013-03-17 02:42:09 PM
The Chinese Dreamliners will.
 
2013-03-17 02:46:27 PM

sethstorm: The Chinese Dreamliners will.

the Dleamriners?
 
2013-03-17 03:06:02 PM
Robo Beat: 

/this whole thing kind of makes me wonder what new and fascinating problems the A350 will have

Airbus has already announced that they're using NiCad batteries.

So hard to tell what it'll be, if it must be with new planes.

----

"In our lab, we are actually able to not only simulate the airplane environment, but we are able to do so with a much greater degree of instrumentation and monitoring than we could on the airplane."

But you didn't test them the first time, because, why?

Or are these new labs you didn't have before?
 
2013-03-17 05:26:29 PM

KarmicDisaster: I don't know how that factors into the weight savings.


I think it factors more into "The jet doesn't make money parked in a hangar" than weight savings.  Supposedly there will be a second fix where the metal box is removed and a lighter (and non exploding) battery pack is installed.
 
2013-03-17 05:31:16 PM

ha-ha-guy: Znuh: Generation_D: Hey Boeing, hows that outsourcing working out for you now.

This. Pinnacle of engineering to "You want fries with that. From the lowest bidder. Who we found under a rock."

Enh, the entire battery industry is filled with lying scumbags, they could have gone with the high bid and still gotten this.  A lot of battery companies can deliver you a few hundred perfect batteries for your prototypes, but their quality goes off a cliff when mass production is required.

I get how Boeing's design is better, but they may have tried to get it out the door a generation before they should have.


But Dreamliners aren't mass produced.  There are only about 50.  And is this the only problem, or the only one that has become public?
 
2013-03-17 06:38:03 PM
To be fair, it might be fairly difficult to reach LaHood's goal of 1,000% certainty.

ALSO: The fires have less to do with outsourcing and more to do with just battery technology being used in a new place.
There were fire and overheating problems with the airline industry switched from lead acid batteries to nickel cadmium batteries. Those got ironed out eventually.
 
2013-03-17 06:40:41 PM

ski9600: Dick's Knot: "Dreamliner Batteries" would be a good name for a band.

"THEY'RE ON FIRE!"


Now opening for Great White!
 
2013-03-17 06:50:31 PM
O the headlinity!
 
2013-03-17 07:27:59 PM
www.hwdyk.com

It's pronounced HIND-en-berg.
 
2013-03-17 09:20:31 PM

Znuh: Generation_D: Hey Boeing, hows that outsourcing working out for you now.

This. Pinnacle of engineering to "You want fires with that. From the lowest bidder. Who we found under a rock."


Fixed
 
2013-03-17 10:33:48 PM
i1125.photobucket.com
Here's one with a shuttle atop.

/What a happy plane it is.
 
2013-03-17 11:03:05 PM

Summer Glau's Love Slave: [i1125.photobucket.com image 400x241]
Here's one with a shuttle atop.

/What a happy plane it is.


Just out of curiosity, why use the Buran with the AN-225 rather than the US Shuttle and the NASA 747?
 
2013-03-18 02:12:54 AM

cptjeff: Summer Glau's Love Slave: [i1125.photobucket.com image 400x241]
Here's one with a shuttle atop.

/What a happy plane it is.

Just out of curiosity, why use the Buran with the AN-225 rather than the US Shuttle and the NASA 747?



Because I don't have a gif of that.
 
2013-03-18 12:48:56 PM

12349876: Robo Beat: /this whole thing kind of makes me wonder what new and fascinating problems the A350 will have

The A350 ditched plans to use this new battery and are going back to the old.


The A350 will have a lot of problems, but that will be covered up by an Airbus bought and paid for press and a US press who loves to pile on Boeing.  Shame, we didn't here nary a peep about the A380's engine and wing issues, unless you were an aviation enthusiast.  They didn't really report on that crap at all, but Boeing gets the stick because of batteries made by GS Yuasa that didn't have a single problem in testing and, like a poster said before, the production lots are terrible.

Guaranteed the A350 will have problems; all new aircraft do.  It is a matter of what the press will report.
 
2013-03-19 01:46:50 PM
Mi-5:Shame, we didn't here nary a peep about the A380's engine and wing issues, unless you were an aviation enthusiast.

Seemed quite well reported to me, at any rate. More to the point, there wasn't a FAA (well, I guess  EASA) ordered grounding of the entire fleet over  either issue.

The wing cracks were handled by repairs that could be fitted into the maintenance schedule - although some carriers went the "full-upgrade-now" route.  The Trent 900 engine problems were handled by the airlines, EADS and Rolls-Royce. Doesn't seem exactly equivalent to a flagship aircraft being ordered not to fly at all, after a critical subsystem twice fails catastrophically in the course of 52,000 aggregate flight hours.
 
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