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(Zero Hedge)   You implement an over-the-weekend 6.75% levy on all bank accounts as part of your "bailout plan", we smash through your bank with an excavator. That's the Cyprus way   (zerohedge.com) divider line 135
    More: Scary, Frozen Assets, Cyprus, bank accounts, Jean-Claude Juncker, Spanish Banks, Europe, rescues, deposits  
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10246 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Mar 2013 at 10:25 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-17 06:41:58 AM
I cannot believe they did this. In every other country with even a remote possibility of needing a bailout the first thing everyone will do is take all their money out of the bank so they won't lose a chunk of it if this happens to them. What do you get when millions of people start taking all their money out of the banks? A run on the banks. Which then guarantees they will need a bailout.

With interest rates so low there is nothing to lose by keeping all your money under your mattress, or transferring it to a bank account in a safe country.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens Tuesday morning there (Monday is a bank holiday) and in other vulnerable countries in Europe.
 
2013-03-17 08:24:02 AM
Only on accounts of less than 100,000 euros? Is that class warfare?
 
2013-03-17 08:42:05 AM

Flint Ironstag: first thing everyone will do is take all their money out of the bank


It's also what they are now doing there
 
2013-03-17 09:43:57 AM

EvilEgg: Only on accounts of less than 100,000 euros? Is that class warfare?


It's ten percent on accounts above that
 
2013-03-17 09:55:12 AM

ArkAngel: EvilEgg: Only on accounts of less than 100,000 euros? Is that class warfare?

It's ten percent on accounts above that


Is it? I got bored.
 
2013-03-17 10:04:29 AM

EvilEgg: ArkAngel: EvilEgg: Only on accounts of less than 100,000 euros? Is that class warfare?

It's ten percent on accounts above that

Is it? I got bored.


Yeah, it is.

And this bailout is utterly bogus.  They're actually arguing it is right to tax the people who have money in the bank because they are responsible for the actions of the bank, which is ridiculous.  They've also frozen the funds necessary to pay the tax from everyone's accounts already, even though for the plan to be put into place, it requires the approval of Cyprus' assembly.
 
2013-03-17 10:31:14 AM
Trial balloon. Coming soon to a country near you!
 
2013-03-17 10:31:25 AM
This amounts to robbery and extortion. To arbitrarily tax someones wealth for the sins of others to bailout a country you may not even be a citizen of is something everyone should be very worried about. Coming soon to Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, US, France .....
 
2013-03-17 10:32:00 AM
Let's just grab 6-10% of peoples savings from them without warning. I'm sure that won't create a single problem anywhere.

Seriously, the government agency that did this and the people that approved it should be charged with larceny.
 
2013-03-17 10:32:26 AM
It's not a levy. It's forcing account holders to buy shares in banks. I don't see how this is any different from people being forced to buy health insurance, really.
 
2013-03-17 10:34:15 AM
Thanks Europe! For making our idiots in power look better by comparison
 
2013-03-17 10:36:24 AM

Copper Spork: It's not a levy. It's forcing account holders to buy shares in banks. I don't see how this is any different from people being forced to buy health insurance, really.


Put in American terms, this plan represents the democrat party ideal of subjects that exist to serve the needs of the state, and opposition the republican party ideal of a state that exists to serve the needs of its citizens.  I am sure that somebody can draw some distinction between forcing people to buy health insurance and forcing them to suffer a "levy" for the good of the banks, but it would be quite the act of rhetorical gymnastics.
 
2013-03-17 10:36:39 AM
The European welfare state is unsustainable. Europe is broke, and this is just the most advanced example of the Eurocratic elite and the bankers ganging up on other citizens. The end result will be a bank run in Europe. And once bank runs start, they're very hard to stop.

Cyprus is where Greek will be next year, followed shortly by Spain, Italy, and then most of the rest of Europe. And then shortly thereafter, thanks to those trillion dollar deficits, us.

Banks runs. Hyperinflation. And maybe 25% economic contraction in one year. If we're lucky.Hope those free condoms and cell phones were worth destroying the economy for.

Have a nice day.
 
2013-03-17 10:38:31 AM

EvilEgg: Only on accounts of less than 100,000 euros? Is that class warfare?


- and 9.9% above that.

so yeah
 
2013-03-17 10:38:49 AM

Copper Spork: It's not a levy. It's forcing account holders to buy shares in banks. I don't see how this is any different from people being forced to buy health insurance, really.


Why would I buy shares of a bank in the middle of a panic?
 
2013-03-17 10:39:25 AM

Gunny Walker: Copper Spork: It's not a levy. It's forcing account holders to buy shares in banks. I don't see how this is any different from people being forced to buy health insurance, really.

Why would I buy shares of a bank in the middle of a panic?


You voted with your wallet before the panic, didn't you?
 
2013-03-17 10:40:14 AM

Copper Spork: It's not a levy. It's forcing account holders to buy shares in banks. I don't see how this is any different from people being forced to buy health insurance, really.


Oh you're gonna get some bites on that one
 
2013-03-17 10:40:21 AM

Gunny Walker: Copper Spork: It's not a levy. It's forcing account holders to buy shares in banks. I don't see how this is any different from people being forced to buy health insurance, really.

Why would I buy shares of a bank in the middle of a panic?


Because you don't have a choice?
 
2013-03-17 10:40:22 AM

Flint Ironstag: With interest rates so low there is nothing to lose by keeping all your money under your mattress, or transferring it to a bank account in a safe country.


What country would that be, exactly?  Looting to pay for the unsustainable welfare state is popular pretty much everywhere.  The only choice is whether to be victimized by a group of oligarchs or masses with an insatiable appetite for other people's cash.  Here in America, it's mostly the latter-- the list of free government goodies is endless.
 
2013-03-17 10:40:48 AM
The banks are stealing out of their customer's accounts. Call it a tax. Call it a levy. Yeah, sure. Whatever.  Money is an idea backed by confidence and what really matters is how the bank's customers feel about all this. It's going to be an interesting Tuesday.
 
2013-03-17 10:41:35 AM
I'm not surprised they managed to take a minor crisis and turned it into an unmitigated disaster.

Also, I thought this plan needed parliamentary approval, which means there's a brutal election season coming.
 
2013-03-17 10:42:32 AM

LawrencePerson: The European welfare state is unsustainable. Europe is broke, and this is just the most advanced example of the Eurocratic elite and the bankers ganging up on other citizens. The end result will be a bank run in Europe. And once bank runs start, they're very hard to stop.

Cyprus is where Greek will be next year, followed shortly by Spain, Italy, and then most of the rest of Europe. And then shortly thereafter, thanks to those trillion dollar deficits, us.

Banks runs. Hyperinflation. And maybe 25% economic contraction in one year. If we're lucky.Hope those free condoms and cell phones were worth destroying the economy for.

Have a nice day.


None of that is true and I put the odds at 1:1 that you either don't invest or, if you do, none of your money is behind such a ridiculously dreary assessment of the situation.

And why did you link your own blog as support for your comments anyway?
 
2013-03-17 10:42:43 AM
Not meaning to start a flame war but in the US, this is one of the few reasons to vote Republican - they wouldn't implement a wealth tax. In the past year I've read proposals by state-level Democrats to tax savings, both personal and corporate.

Coincidentally, another round of Reverse-Robin-Hood tax trick is probably coming up - a special superlow low tax rate that lets corporations holding large amounts of cash overseas to cheaply bring the cash back to the US. Congress did this about 10 years ago, passing a special 5% rate.

(The parties are so indistinguishable that it hardly matters - they both love war, debt, currency debasement, and partisan politics. Neither will fix Mexican immigration (the Dems had their chance when they had 60 votes in the Senate in 2009-2010) because both parties are racist as f*ck, though the Dems have better PR...)
 
2013-03-17 10:45:02 AM

GAT_00: EvilEgg: ArkAngel: EvilEgg: Only on accounts of less than 100,000 euros? Is that class warfare?

It's ten percent on accounts above that

Is it? I got bored.

Yeah, it is.

And this bailout is utterly bogus.  They're actually arguing it is right to tax the people who have money in the bank because they are responsible for the actions of the bank, which is ridiculous.  They've also frozen the funds necessary to pay the tax from everyone's accounts already, even though for the plan to be put into place, it requires the approval of Cyprus' assembly.


I believe this is called the "They bought their tickets. They knew what they were getting into. I say let 'em crash" Doctrine.
 
2013-03-17 10:46:34 AM
For all of you who voted for Obama, take a good look at socialism in action.
 
2013-03-17 10:46:44 AM
This is unsettling.  I think I'll move to the safe-bolted-to-the-floor approach to hold the lion's share of my savings.  Can't do too much about my 401k, but surplus cash over about $1,000 I'll no longer be keeping in a bank account.
 
2013-03-17 10:48:25 AM

My Bologna Has A Maiden Name: For all of you who voted for Obama, take a good look at socialism in action.


Obama is from Kenya not Cyprus.
 
2013-03-17 10:49:31 AM

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: GAT_00: EvilEgg: ArkAngel: EvilEgg: Only on accounts of less than 100,000 euros? Is that class warfare?

It's ten percent on accounts above that

Is it? I got bored.

Yeah, it is.

And this bailout is utterly bogus.  They're actually arguing it is right to tax the people who have money in the bank because they are responsible for the actions of the bank, which is ridiculous.  They've also frozen the funds necessary to pay the tax from everyone's accounts already, even though for the plan to be put into place, it requires the approval of Cyprus' assembly.

I believe this is called the "They bought their tickets. They knew what they were getting into. I say let 'em crash" Doctrine.


Really?  You're equally responsible for every action taken by your bank for having deposits in it?
 
2013-03-17 10:50:50 AM

LawrencePerson: The European welfare state is unsustainable.



Greece and Ireland went down, Spain nearly went down, France, UK and Italy are struggling, Germany and farking goddamn Scandinavia are roaring on all cylinders.

So you are correct that there is a relationship between welfare state and recession. You just got the sign wrong. Strongest welfare states did <i>best</i> in the recession.
 
2013-03-17 10:51:46 AM

Copper Spork: It's not a levy. It's forcing account holders to buy shares in banks. I don't see how this is any different from people being forced to buy health insurance, really.


I'm guessing that "not seeing how things work" happens to you a lot of the time.
 
2013-03-17 10:53:06 AM
"One time".... Sure.

Once again, governments proving that they view all assets as theirs.
 
2013-03-17 10:53:39 AM
No wonder homeland security is buying billions of bullets. They are for us.
 
2013-03-17 10:57:01 AM
That money done got itself sequestered
 
2013-03-17 10:57:38 AM
Wow, the conservatards are out in full force this morning. Shouldn't you all be at church?
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-03-17 10:58:24 AM
If taxing savings is unfair, what would be a "fair" solution to the Cyprus problem?

I expect government-sanctioned retirement plans to go this way in America. Your plan gets nationalized and in return you get an IOU for benefits in 10-30 years.
 
2013-03-17 11:00:19 AM

Alone in the Snark: LawrencePerson: The European welfare state is unsustainable.


Greece and Ireland went down, Spain nearly went down, France, UK and Italy are struggling, Germany and farking goddamn Scandinavia are roaring on all cylinders.

So you are correct that there is a relationship between welfare state and recession. You just got the sign wrong. Strongest welfare states did <i>best</i> in the recession.


I think there's a cultural bias.  Many of the people there (I'm told) are proud to be productive so they can pay higher taxes so they can support their country and keep it strong.

Derptards here, on the other hand, are way too I-me-mine to think like that.  "I love my country, except for the people in it, they can fark off."
 
2013-03-17 11:00:35 AM

GAT_00: The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: GAT_00: EvilEgg: ArkAngel: EvilEgg: Only on accounts of less than 100,000 euros? Is that class warfare?

It's ten percent on accounts above that

Is it? I got bored.

Yeah, it is.

And this bailout is utterly bogus.  They're actually arguing it is right to tax the people who have money in the bank because they are responsible for the actions of the bank, which is ridiculous.  They've also frozen the funds necessary to pay the tax from everyone's accounts already, even though for the plan to be put into place, it requires the approval of Cyprus' assembly.

I believe this is called the "They bought their tickets. They knew what they were getting into. I say let 'em crash" Doctrine.

Really?  You're equally responsible for every action taken by your bank for having deposits in it?




Isn't that the premise behind social ownership?

You live here, you do business here, you should pay for the upkeep as well as the mistakes of the bosses.
 
2013-03-17 11:01:38 AM

Alone in the Snark: LawrencePerson: The European welfare state is unsustainable.


Greece and Ireland went down, Spain nearly went down, France, UK and Italy are struggling, Germany and farking goddamn Scandinavia are roaring on all cylinders.

So you are correct that there is a relationship between welfare state and recession. You just got the sign wrong. Strongest welfare states did <i>best</i> in the recession.


Scandinavia is a country now?  Man I hope someone told Finland.
 
2013-03-17 11:02:39 AM
img543.imageshack.us
 
2013-03-17 11:03:30 AM

LawrencePerson: The European welfare state is unsustainable. Europe is broke, and this is just the most advanced example of the Eurocratic elite and the bankers ganging up on other citizens. The end result will be a bank run in Europe. And once bank runs start, they're very hard to stop.

Cyprus is where Greek will be next year, followed shortly by Spain, Italy, and then most of the rest of Europe. And then shortly thereafter, thanks to those trillion dollar deficits, us.

Banks runs. Hyperinflation. And maybe 25% economic contraction in one year. If we're lucky.Hope those free condoms and cell phones were worth destroying the economy for.

Have a nice day.


And aircraft carriers. I sure feel safer with 14 flattops - the possibility of only having a dozen or so kept me up at night.

But spending on your priorities, that's different - right?
 
2013-03-17 11:03:44 AM
Can't wait to hear how Obama is planning to do this.
 
2013-03-17 11:04:42 AM

Jonnadiah: Wow, the conservatards are out in full force this morning. Shouldn't you all be at church?


Opposition to government seizure of assets is "conservatard?"  I guess this is the endgame of liberalism.
 
2013-03-17 11:04:44 AM
All your moneys are belong to us.
Move along, sheep.

This is the rich trying to find a way to shift the inevitable collapse to the already, soon to be, more poor.
The 2% is going to have to raid itself and this will be ugly.
W/o deflation and probably a reissue of currency, there is no salvation from this quagmire. And the Nannys are not going to go down alone.
 
2013-03-17 11:05:21 AM

GAT_00: And this bailout is utterly bogus.  They're actually arguing it is right to tax the people who have money in the bank because they are responsible for the actions of the bank, which is ridiculous.  They've also frozen the funds necessary to pay the tax from everyone's accounts already, even though for the plan to be put into place, it requires the approval of Cyprus' assembly.


As with Iceland, a very large amount of the money in and moving through Cyprus is Russian mafia money being laundered. German electors are not keen to protect the financial interests of the Russian mafia, hence this rather crude move.
 
2013-03-17 11:06:28 AM

Inyego: This amounts to robbery and extortion. To arbitrarily tax someones wealth for the sins of others to bailout a country you may not even be a citizen of is something everyone should be very worried about. Coming soon to Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, US, France .....


Or they could just let the banks fail and then the savers would lose every last euro and cent.
 
2013-03-17 11:07:40 AM

ZAZ: If taxing savings is unfair, what would be a "fair" solution to the Cyprus problem?

I expect government-sanctioned retirement plans to go this way in America. Your plan gets nationalized and in return you get an IOU for benefits in 10-30 years.


Bullchit, the rich will steal it all. Period.
You and I are not "entitled" to our own money or country.
 
2013-03-17 11:07:41 AM
The BBC is reporting that apparently a reason the EU thought this was a good idea is that Cyprus banks are used by Russian money launderers for storage. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21819990

I guess that means they have huge piles of money sitting in them for the taking, big piles held by Russians who don't vote in Cyprus or anywhere in the EU.

The flaw in that cunning plan was the reaction from the general public at saying that they are seizing money saved in the bank.
 
2013-03-17 11:07:50 AM

orbister: GAT_00: And this bailout is utterly bogus.  They're actually arguing it is right to tax the people who have money in the bank because they are responsible for the actions of the bank, which is ridiculous.  They've also frozen the funds necessary to pay the tax from everyone's accounts already, even though for the plan to be put into place, it requires the approval of Cyprus' assembly.

As with Iceland, a very large amount of the money in and moving through Cyprus is Russian mafia money being laundered. German electors are not keen to protect the financial interests of the Russian mafia, hence this rather crude move.


I'm sure the Russian mafia will be totally cool with it, though. And I hear those are exactly the guys you want mad at you....

/Putin's gonna ride a tiger into Cypress and kick some ass....
 
2013-03-17 11:08:57 AM

Jonnadiah: Wow, the conservatards are out in full force this morning. Shouldn't you all be at church?



I dont think there is even 1% true conservatroll on fark.com.  It is more like a neighborhood full of poorly adjusted kids who lights fires in garbage cans on the curb, & watch the carnage.
 
2013-03-17 11:10:52 AM

My Bologna Has A Maiden Name: For all of you who voted for Obama, take a good look at socialism in action.


Hmm. What is it about phrases like "capitalism in crisis" or "banking crisis" or "bankers continue to receive massive bonuses while farking over the entire world economy" which leads you to believe this a result of socialism?
 
2013-03-17 11:12:35 AM

orbister: GAT_00: And this bailout is utterly bogus.  They're actually arguing it is right to tax the people who have money in the bank because they are responsible for the actions of the bank, which is ridiculous.  They've also frozen the funds necessary to pay the tax from everyone's accounts already, even though for the plan to be put into place, it requires the approval of Cyprus' assembly.

As with Iceland, a very large amount of the money in and moving through Cyprus is Russian mafia money being laundered. German electors are not keen to protect the financial interests of the Russian mafia, hence this rather crude move.


Which in no way justifies hitting the people of Cyprus with this tax.
 
2013-03-17 11:19:15 AM
One thing is for sure--the E.U. will look worse than ever in Britain, and the UK Independence Party's numbers will shoot higher. Nigel Farage will get that much closer to power. The Tories will start to panic, and someday, we'll be watching endless programs about this on the History Channel.
/Makes popcorn.
//Go, Nigel!
 
2013-03-17 11:19:35 AM
How many times can Cyprus be misspelled in one article?   eesh.
 
2013-03-17 11:25:38 AM
As long as the US doesnt fark up and follow suit I dont really care what socialist policies Europeons are forced to endure. They have their ways and seem to enjoy them.
 
2013-03-17 11:27:50 AM
You know, if I lived in Greece, Italy, Spain or Portugal, I'd pull every cent I had out of those countries banks.  The EU will probably do this again.
 
2013-03-17 11:30:40 AM

GAT_00: The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: GAT_00: EvilEgg: ArkAngel: EvilEgg: Only on accounts of less than 100,000 euros? Is that class warfare?

It's ten percent on accounts above that

Is it? I got bored.

Yeah, it is.

And this bailout is utterly bogus.  They're actually arguing it is right to tax the people who have money in the bank because they are responsible for the actions of the bank, which is ridiculous.  They've also frozen the funds necessary to pay the tax from everyone's accounts already, even though for the plan to be put into place, it requires the approval of Cyprus' assembly.

I believe this is called the "They bought their tickets. They knew what they were getting into. I say let 'em crash" Doctrine.

Really?  You're equally responsible for every action taken by your bank for having deposits in it?


Guilt by Association is a real thing in some parts of the world. But then so is the crime of witchcraft.
 
2013-03-17 11:32:04 AM
Yeah, well, it hasn't happened yet. I'll admit it's a crude thing to do, but since Cyprus joined the Euro, it doesn't have access to more sophisticated methods such as devaluing the currency. And the only thing really crude about it is how regressive this "wealth tax" is. I suppose that was to mollify those who actually own Cyprus, who would otherwise be aghast at the prospects of actually paying for what they own. Or even more aghast.
Anyway, Parliament hasn't voted on it yet.
 
2013-03-17 11:44:00 AM
Will never happen here, Americans don't have money in the bank do they?
 
2013-03-17 11:44:32 AM

ArkAngel: EvilEgg: Only on accounts of less than 100,000 euros? Is that class warfare?

It's ten percent on accounts above that


Warfare on the upper class!
 
2013-03-17 11:44:53 AM
This is what can happen when you let all your money become 1's and 0's in someone elses' computer.

For those derping about 'OMG Soshalizm!!" ... fine. We'll just take back your medicaid, ebt, schools, police, and fire protection. Can't be letting YOU have any of OUR socialism now can we? You can go dumpster dive and live under a bridge as God intended because you are obviously a bad person that needs to be punished.

/give me back my tuppence!
 
2013-03-17 11:45:19 AM
Those silly Cypriots.  They should have taken a clue from us--tax the citizens indirectly to prop up the banks.

Whatever you do, never let a bank fail.  They're the world's most important people.
 
2013-03-17 11:46:47 AM

rumpelstiltskin: Yeah, well, it hasn't happened yet. I'll admit it's a crude thing to do, but since Cyprus joined the Euro, it doesn't have access to more sophisticated methods such as devaluing the currency. And the only thing really crude about it is how regressive this "wealth tax" is. I suppose that was to mollify those who actually own Cyprus, who would otherwise be aghast at the prospects of actually paying for what they own. Or even more aghast.
Anyway, Parliament hasn't voted on it yet.


It technically already has happened because they froze the money necessary to pay it without passing it.
 
2013-03-17 11:46:56 AM
Since you're only getting what %0.2 on your savings account it seems to me that the best thing to do is keep your money in cash. Get a safe deposit box and store it in the bank where it's safe (unless they plan on taking that too)
 
2013-03-17 11:54:41 AM

DigitalCoffee: This is what can happen when you let all your money become 1's and 0's in someone elses' computer.

For those derping about 'OMG Soshalizm!!" ... fine. We'll just take back your medicaid, ebt, schools, police, and fire protection. Can't be letting YOU have any of OUR socialism now can we? You can go dumpster dive and live under a bridge as God intended because you are obviously a bad person that needs to be punished.

/give me back my tuppence!


No.
No.
Just no.
We can't have this kind of talk.

/They didn't build that bridge. Tell them to live somewhere else.
 
2013-03-17 11:55:08 AM

GAT_00: Really? You're equally responsible for every action taken by your bank for having deposits in it?


Duh!
Otherwise, after you had your white-tie dinner with the president of the bank, you would have realized what a nincompoop he was and decided to make your deposits in one of the other banks whose presidents you attended college with.
Get with the program!
 
2013-03-17 11:56:41 AM
This was a really really really bad idea.
 
2013-03-17 12:02:31 PM
 I am living in Cyprus and there were no queues at cash machines in Limassol yesterday morning, although admittedly that was before the news really broke. We stayed away from Carnival this afternoon, partly because we thought it might turn into a riot (and partly because we've been before and it's a bit crap).

Thanks to speculation about the condition of the banking system over the last year or two we have mostly got used to not keeping too much in the local bank, the majority of my savings is in the UK, however, I have probably lost a couple of hundred Euros, if this affects my chequing account, which I am not sure it does.
 
2013-03-17 12:07:01 PM
One reason we didn't fall into a depression in late 2008/early 2009 is that - unlike the early 1930's - the general public didn't make a run on the banks. If that had happened.... it would not have been pretty.

Which is why this is a very bad idea. If you give people a reason not to trust the security of their money being held in banks ... they'll pull all it out. They'll demand their employers pay them - in cash - and keep the money with themselves ... and boom goes the economy.
 
2013-03-17 12:07:45 PM
They would probably try to take or further restrict firearm ownership here in the US before they tried anything like what is going on in Cyprus........especially anything useful in killing large amounts of people quickly....they would probably leave handguns alone even though they kill more people than military style rifles. Handguns are useless against people equipped with body armor and trauma plates.
 
2013-03-17 12:10:31 PM

GAT_00: Which in no way justifies hitting the people of Cyprus with this tax.


Better just to let them lose everything?
 
2013-03-17 12:16:33 PM

GentlemanJ: One thing is for sure--the E.U. will look worse than ever in Britain, and the UK Independence Party's numbers will shoot higher. Nigel Farage will get that much closer to power.


Not a chance. Farage and his party haven't a hope. the only issue on which they have cross-spectrum support is Europe, and while many people care about that, they don;t care about it enough to change their votes. Their other policies are cobbled together right-wing stuff designed to appeal to the Neanderthal wing of the Tories and offputting to anyone and everyone else. The absolute best Farage can hope for is to reduce the Tory vote a bit and let the staunchly pro-Europe Labour back in.
 
2013-03-17 12:17:06 PM

orbister: GAT_00: Which in no way justifies hitting the people of Cyprus with this tax.

Better just to let them lose everything?


If the problem is Russian money laundering, why are they not seizing those funds for payment instead of punishing the people who are apparently criminals for living in Cyprus?

And if they can't find those funds and seize them, then why are the people being punished for something that can't be proven?
 
2013-03-17 12:20:40 PM

Yeah_Right: One reason we didn't fall into a depression in late 2008/early 2009 is that - unlike the early 1930's - the general public didn't make a run on the banks. If that had happened.... it would not have been pretty.

Which is why this is a very bad idea. If you give people a reason not to trust the security of their money being held in banks ... they'll pull all it out. They'll demand their employers pay them - in cash - and keep the money with themselves ... and boom goes the economy.


Bingo.

For "the system" to work, people have to trust the banks with money.  People don't trust the banks, the whole system crumbles pretty fast.

Deposit insurance is the normal way to ensure people trust the banks enough.  When you start taking a sudden direct tax of savings, directly confiscating the money in bank accounts. . .you just shot that confidence.  That's why taxes are normally either on income received, or money paid out, never touching money that isn't moving at all.

Bad move, EU, bad move.  Consumer confidence in the banking system of every EU state with any financial trouble just took a substantial hit.
 
2013-03-17 12:20:45 PM

orbister: Inyego: This amounts to robbery and extortion. To arbitrarily tax someones wealth for the sins of others to bailout a country you may not even be a citizen of is something everyone should be very worried about. Coming soon to Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, US, France .....

Or they could just let the banks fail and then the savers would lose every last euro and cent.


You fail at reading comprehension. This was not a bank bailout, it was a bailout for a government that tried to spend themselves into prosperity.
 
2013-03-17 12:32:31 PM
Eh people need to calm down. The Federal Reserve will continue to confiscate your money in passive/aggressive fashion by promoting inflationary policies by printing money and encouraging financial speculation. You'll get screwed in the end just the same, if not worse, especially if you are on a fixed income..

Of course, if at some point, the world stops believing that the US dollar should be a reserve currency because the Federal Reserve is printing too much money then well..you'll understand why the government bought all that ammunition...
 
2013-03-17 12:37:22 PM

Copper Spork: It's not a levy. It's forcing account holders to buy shares in banks. I don't see how this is any different from people being forced to buy health insurance, really.


So, it's a "tax" then?
 
2013-03-17 12:53:45 PM

ZAZ: If taxing savings is unfair, what would be a "fair" solution to the Cyprus problem?

I expect government-sanctioned retirement plans to go this way in America. Your plan gets nationalized and in return you get an IOU for benefits in 10-30 years.


^^^^^^^THIS

401Ks will be seized, mark my words.
 
2013-03-17 12:57:03 PM
Well, the other solution was to give a bunch of EU taxpayer money to Russian money laundered who blew up the Cyprus' banking system.
 
2013-03-17 12:57:07 PM

EvilEgg: Only on accounts of less than 100,000 euros? Is that class warfare?


Yes
 
2013-03-17 12:58:52 PM

count_chimpula: Eh people need to calm down. The Federal Reserve will continue to confiscate your money in passive/aggressive fashion by promoting inflationary policies by printing money and encouraging financial speculation. You'll get screwed in the end just the same, if not worse, especially if you are on a fixed income..


Oh look, another Libertarian nutter who doesn't understand how inflation works.
 
2013-03-17 01:00:34 PM

Forced Perspective: Copper Spork: It's not a levy. It's forcing account holders to buy shares in banks. I don't see how this is any different from people being forced to buy health insurance, really.

Put in American terms, this plan represents the democrat party ideal of subjects that exist to serve the needs of the state, and opposition the republican party ideal of a state that is A) too small to fit anywhere except in a cootch or B) be drowned in a bathtub or C) exists to serve the needs of its citizens its corporations.
I am sure that somebody can draw some distinction between tyrannically forcing people to buy satanic health insurance at gunpoint and gently encouraging them to accept a "levy" for the good of the holy sacred banks, but it would be quite the act of rhetorical gymnastics.


There, little kitty was helpful and fixed that for you
 
2013-03-17 01:08:50 PM

Alone in the Snark: Greece and Ireland went down, Spain nearly went down, France, UK and Italy are struggling, Germany and farking goddamn Scandinavia are roaring on all cylinders.

So you are correct that there is a relationship between welfare state and recession. You just got the sign wrong. Strongest welfare states did <i>best</i> in the recession.


Nope it is just catching up with them later.

Germany may fall into recession in 2013

"The cyclical outlook for the German economy has dimmed," said the Bundesbank in a statement. "There are even indications that economic activity may fall in the final quarter of 2012 and the first quarter of 2013."


And if your argument is that they did better maybe because Sweden introduced austerity measures AND cut taxes-in effect reduced their welfare burden

www.americanthinker.com

www.americanthinker.com


"In the 1990s, following a financial crisis and the worst recession in Sweden since the 1930s, Sweden faced a deficit of over 11 percent of GDP in 1993. Soon thereafter, the government enacted a large deficit reduction plan to restore confidence in its currency and enhance its budgetary flexibility. It reduced its subsidies for medical and dental care, indexed certain taxes, and increased contribution rates for the unemployment benefit system. Ultimately, Sweden reduced its debt by establishing a goal to make surpluses equal 2 percent of GDP. By 2004 Sweden was running budget surpluses, and in 2008 the country's debt was 38 percent of GDP."

Swedish government

" While most countries in Europe borrowed massively, Borg did not. Since becoming Sweden's finance minister, his mission has been to pare back government. His 'stimulus' was a permanent tax cut. To critics, this was fiscal lunacy. Borg, on the other hand, thought lunacy meant repeating the economics of the 1970s and expecting a different result.

Three years on, it's pretty clear who was right. "Look at Spain, Portugal or the UK, whose governments were arguing for large temporary stimulus," he says. "Well, we can see that very little of the stimulus went to the economy. But they are stuck with the debt." Tax-cutting Sweden, by contrast, had the fastest growth in Europe last year, when it also celebrated the abolition of its deficit. The recovery started just in time for the 2010 Swedish election, in which the Conservatives were re-elected for the first time in history."

Some Austerity is Good Austerity
 
2013-03-17 01:19:35 PM

mikaloyd: Thanks Europe! For making our idiots in power look better by comparison


The idiot is the one who can't farking tell the difference between the continent of Europe and the EU.

Especially the complete moron who wrote this article. He thinks the Russians will be angry?

WTF. Russia just extended a loan to Cyprus, after a meeting with the ECB.

Russia doesn't want to extend a loan and have that money just go to the Russians who can't have a bank account in Russia because they're bloody criminals.


You think those Russians have 10x the times of the Cypriotic GDP in their banks because they just love Cyprus so much? That's incredible naive.

---

Yeah, sucks for the Cypriotic people. They got screwed by their banks, and I assume, also by their government that allowed this to happen.


It won't lead to a run on the banks in other countries, because banks in other countries aren't funded by the Russian mafia.
 
2013-03-17 01:21:14 PM
More proof that "independent" (aka privately owned) central banks are scams, and have complete control over many countries and governments.  "The Central Bank of Cyprus was established in 1963, shortly after Cyprus gained its independence, as an autonomous institution in accordance with the  Central Bank of Cyprus Law 1963 and the relevant articles of the Constitution."  Is this any worse than when the Fed seized all privately held US gold in 1933?
 
2013-03-17 01:22:12 PM

LawrencePerson: The European welfare state is unsustainable. Europe is broke, and this is just the most advanced example of the Eurocratic elite and the bankers ganging up on other citizens. The end result will be a bank run in Europe. And once bank runs start, they're very hard to stop.

Have a nice day.


The EU, not Europe.

And in 10 years you'll post back saying you were wrong when proven so.

And what's your deadline for comming back and saying you were wrong on the bank runs as well. Tommorow?
 
2013-03-17 01:23:25 PM
At what point of success does the feeling that you aren't responsible for your own mistakes arise?
 
2013-03-17 01:26:07 PM
Shazam999: 
Scandinavia is a country now?  Man I hope someone told Finland.

Finland isn't in Scandinavia. ;)

---

Anyways, just for the record. I think taking money out of peoples account directly is insane.

I can wanting to fark the Russian criminals over, but ordinary Cypriots?
 
2013-03-17 01:37:02 PM

LawrencePerson: Hope those free condoms and cell phones were worth destroying the economy for.


media.tumblr.com
 
2013-03-17 01:54:14 PM

GAT_00: And if they can't find those funds and seize them, then why are the people being punished for something that can't be proven?


So, once again, do you think it would be better just to let the banks fail? Serious question.
 
2013-03-17 01:57:31 PM
It's sad how weak the trolls are now days.
 
2013-03-17 02:01:34 PM

libranoelrose: It's sad how weak the trolls are now days.


*sigh*
 
2013-03-17 02:06:47 PM

Inyego: You fail at reading comprehension. This was not a bank bailout, it was a bailout for a government that tried to spend themselves into prosperity.


It might be wise to read a little more about the situation before making potentially embarrassing comments. As the BBC puts it:

President Nicos Anastasiades said refusing the bailout would have led to the collapse of the country's banks.

and also

The banks are central to this story. They grew rapidly. By 2011, the IMF reported that their assets - which include all the loans they have made - were equivalent to 835% of annual national income, or GDP. A chunk of that is down to foreign-owned banks, but those that are Cypriot had made loans to Greek borrowers worth 160% of Cypriot GDP. There have been losses on the loans to private borrowers because of the depression that has hit the Greek economy. And the value of the debts owed by the Greek government was cut in a debt relief exercise undertaken last year. It might have helped Greece, but the Cypriot banks were hit.
 
2013-03-17 02:08:50 PM
You want us to believe that Sweden's government spent 67-68% of the country's GDP up until 1992?
 
2013-03-17 02:15:51 PM

CujoQuarrel: Since you're only getting what %0.2 on your savings account it seems to me that the best thing to do is keep your money in cash. Get a safe deposit box and store it in the bank where it's safe (unless they plan on taking that too)


When there's a bank holiday, you can't access your safe deposit box. But yes, you're right that when interest rates are ridiculously low, it makes sense to keep your money in cash. I'm sure the people of Cyprus are wishing they had done so last week.

Tomorrow I'm going to pull some of my money out of the bank and hold the cash in my own safe. I'd really prefer not to, and I don't think a bank run is highly likely here in the US in the near term, but you never know. There have been several instances of bank runs and bank holidays in the US, and it'd make me feel a little safer to have some cash on hand.
 
2013-03-17 02:25:20 PM

Flint Ironstag: With interest rates so low there is nothing to lose by keeping all your money under your mattress, or transferring it to a bank account in a safe country.


Kind of hard to have sympathy for a country that was used to hide assets.  Needs to happen more with like-minded tax domiciles (even if it means unannounced takeovers by the US/UK/EU of what are essentially easy targets).
 
2013-03-17 02:30:02 PM

LawrencePerson: The European welfare state is unsustainable. Europe is broke, and this is just the most advanced example of the Eurocratic elite and the bankers ganging up on other citizens. The end result will be a bank run in Europe. And once bank runs start, they're very hard to stop.

Cyprus is where Greek will be next year, followed shortly by Spain, Italy, and then most of the rest of Europe. And then shortly thereafter, thanks to those trillion dollar deficits, us.

Banks runs. Hyperinflation. And maybe 25% economic contraction in one year. If we're lucky.Hope those free condoms and cell phones were worth destroying the economy for.

Have a nice day.


Tax evasion (yes, even those who call it "creative accounting" or "tax avoidance") is a biatch, especially when your country makes it the national sport.

/I'm on the side that ends up protecting the country from tax evasion.
 
2013-03-17 02:36:54 PM

orbister: GAT_00: And if they can't find those funds and seize them, then why are the people being punished for something that can't be proven?

So, once again, do you think it would be better just to let the banks fail? Serious question.


I think there are better ways of fixing the problem than yet another stupid solution from the EU.
 
2013-03-17 02:37:51 PM

hasty ambush: Alone in the Snark: Greece and Ireland went down, Spain nearly went down, France, UK and Italy are struggling, Germany and farking goddamn Scandinavia are roaring on all cylinders.

So you are correct that there is a relationship between welfare state and recession. You just got the sign wrong. Strongest welfare states did <i>best</i> in the recession.

Nope it is just catching up with them later.

Germany may fall into recession in 2013

"The cyclical outlook for the German economy has dimmed," said the Bundesbank in a statement. "There are even indications that economic activity may fall in the final quarter of 2012 and the first quarter of 2013."


And if your argument is that they did better maybe because Sweden introduced austerity measures AND cut taxes-in effect reduced their welfare burden

[www.americanthinker.com image 601x363]

[www.americanthinker.com image 600x368]


what your charts show: in times of good economic performance, Sweden cut government spending. Spain & Ireland did the same.

during the 2008 downturn, government spending increased to offset the economic decline. once the economy returned to normal, the budget cutting renewed.

the solution for the economies of Europe that are contracting is stimulus, not austerity.
 
2013-03-17 02:42:44 PM
Here's a fun fact...

The demonym for Cyprus is Cypriot.

/Enjoy your Sunday!
 
2013-03-17 02:56:03 PM

hasty ambush: Swedish government


So, conservatives are now holding up Sweden as a model economy? I'm glad that liberals and conservatives can finally agree on something.

Now we just have to cut taxes down to Swedish levels, where people who earn $45000 a year can pay up to 70% of that in tax.

It's great that conservatives are finally willing to agree to sensible policies.
 
2013-03-17 03:10:44 PM

Bad_Seed: hasty ambush: Swedish government

So, conservatives are now holding up Sweden as a model economy? I'm glad that liberals and conservatives can finally agree on something.

Now we just have to cut taxes down to Swedish levels, where people who earn $45000 a year can pay up to 70% of that in tax.

It's great that conservatives are finally willing to agree to sensible policies.


I'm sure a few would be ok with that if you got rid of all the non-white people, too.
 
2013-03-17 03:26:58 PM
Whoa whoa whoa... Let's not just throw in the Russian Mafia card and call it a day. That's just lazy journalism

Everyone knows Cyprus has the lowest corporate tax rates in the EU. What sets them apart from some of those other tax islands is they are on the Euro. Half of the money might be from Russians, but not all Russian money is mafia money. So a Russian guy makes some money, doesn't trust the local bank and wants to keep it in Euros. People and legitimate businesses all over Europe will be affected by this, and as the article rightfully points out, especially the Cypriots (thanks illannoyin)
 
2013-03-17 03:29:33 PM

Old Smokie: Bad_Seed: hasty ambush: Swedish government

So, conservatives are now holding up Sweden as a model economy? I'm glad that liberals and conservatives can finally agree on something.

Now we just have to cut taxes down to Swedish levels, where people who earn $45000 a year can pay up to 70% of that in tax.

It's great that conservatives are finally willing to agree to sensible policies.

I'm sure a few would be ok with that if you got rid of all the non-white people, too.


What does that have to do with Sweden?
 
2013-03-17 04:05:15 PM

Bad_Seed: Now we just have to cut taxes down to Swedish levels, where people who earn $45000 a year can pay up to 70% of that in tax.


Question: How the FARK does that work?

Because I'm at $72K right now (Bay Area, divide by 2.5 to get actual spending power).  Keeping 30% of that gives me $21,600.  Which is great except that my rent is $1670 a month.  So you're telling me that I have to make SEVENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS just to make rent.  Not rent and food and car and some computer stuff.  Just rent.   And I need to make ANOTHER $1300 every month just to make my car payment.  And another thousand just to pay for food.  And the new mouse I just bought has a de facto price of $350.  It's a nice mouse (The last one lasted me through 2 years and 4 states), but it's not worth $350.

/When your genius plan is that I have to make $4 to spend $1, you've farked up somewhere.
//I'm in CA, one of the highest tax states in the Union and I'm at about $1.75.
///$21K is poverty line in the Midwest.  Out here, I'd eat a bullet if I was living on $21K, except that I couldn't afford one.
 
2013-03-17 06:19:08 PM

meyerkev: Bad_Seed: Now we just have to cut taxes down to Swedish levels, where people who earn $45000 a year can pay up to 70% of that in tax.

Question: How the FARK does that work?

Because I'm at $72K right now (Bay Area, divide by 2.5 to get actual spending power).  Keeping 30% of that gives me $21,600.  Which is great except that my rent is $1670 a month.  So you're telling me that I have to make SEVENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS just to make rent.  Not rent and food and car and some computer stuff.  Just rent.   And I need to make ANOTHER $1300 every month just to make my car payment.  And another thousand just to pay for food.  And the new mouse I just bought has a de facto price of $350.  It's a nice mouse (The last one lasted me through 2 years and 4 states), but it's not worth $350.

/When your genius plan is that I have to make $4 to spend $1, you've farked up somewhere.
//I'm in CA, one of the highest tax states in the Union and I'm at about $1.75.
///$21K is poverty line in the Midwest.  Out here, I'd eat a bullet if I was living on $21K, except that I couldn't afford one.


You live in the wrong place. I earn more than that, live in a "high tax" state, but spend a fraction of that. Either earn and spend what you can afford, or get the heck out of a place where you spend $1670 on freaking rent.... Rent, I remind you, is money that you never ever get back. I spend less than that on my mortgage, and I have land that I grow vegetables on.
 
2013-03-17 06:31:47 PM

desertfool: meyerkev: Bad_Seed: Now we just have to cut taxes down to Swedish levels, where people who earn $45000 a year can pay up to 70% of that in tax.

Question: How the FARK does that work?

Because I'm at $72K right now (Bay Area, divide by 2.5 to get actual spending power).  Keeping 30% of that gives me $21,600.  Which is great except that my rent is $1670 a month.  So you're telling me that I have to make SEVENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS just to make rent.  Not rent and food and car and some computer stuff.  Just rent.   And I need to make ANOTHER $1300 every month just to make my car payment.  And another thousand just to pay for food.  And the new mouse I just bought has a de facto price of $350.  It's a nice mouse (The last one lasted me through 2 years and 4 states), but it's not worth $350.

/When your genius plan is that I have to make $4 to spend $1, you've farked up somewhere.
//I'm in CA, one of the highest tax states in the Union and I'm at about $1.75.
///$21K is poverty line in the Midwest.  Out here, I'd eat a bullet if I was living on $21K, except that I couldn't afford one.

You live in the wrong place. I earn more than that, live in a "high tax" state, but spend a fraction of that. Either earn and spend what you can afford, or get the heck out of a place where you spend $1670 on freaking rent.... Rent, I remind you, is money that you never ever get back. I spend less than that on my mortgage, and I have land that I grow vegetables on.


The other great thing about a mortgage is rent goes up over time while (generally) mortgage payments stay the same (it drop in real terms) and after twenty five years of so they stop. My monthly mortgage for my house is about $250. To rent now would be $1200. If you have to move for work renting can be more convenient but in the long term, if you can stay in the same area, buying will work out far cheaper and protect against inflation.
 
2013-03-17 06:57:35 PM

Flint Ironstag: desertfool: meyerkev: Bad_Seed: Now we just have to cut taxes down to Swedish levels, where people who earn $45000 a year can pay up to 70% of that in tax.

Question: How the FARK does that work?

Because I'm at $72K right now (Bay Area, divide by 2.5 to get actual spending power).  Keeping 30% of that gives me $21,600.  Which is great except that my rent is $1670 a month.  So you're telling me that I have to make SEVENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS just to make rent.  Not rent and food and car and some computer stuff.  Just rent.   And I need to make ANOTHER $1300 every month just to make my car payment.  And another thousand just to pay for food.  And the new mouse I just bought has a de facto price of $350.  It's a nice mouse (The last one lasted me through 2 years and 4 states), but it's not worth $350.

/When your genius plan is that I have to make $4 to spend $1, you've farked up somewhere.
//I'm in CA, one of the highest tax states in the Union and I'm at about $1.75.
///$21K is poverty line in the Midwest.  Out here, I'd eat a bullet if I was living on $21K, except that I couldn't afford one.

You live in the wrong place. I earn more than that, live in a "high tax" state, but spend a fraction of that. Either earn and spend what you can afford, or get the heck out of a place where you spend $1670 on freaking rent.... Rent, I remind you, is money that you never ever get back. I spend less than that on my mortgage, and I have land that I grow vegetables on.

The other great thing about a mortgage is rent goes up over time while (generally) mortgage payments stay the same (it drop in real terms) and after twenty five years of so they stop. My monthly mortgage for my house is about $250. To rent now would be $1200. If you have to move for work renting can be more convenient but in the long term, if you can stay in the same area, buying will work out far cheaper and protect against inflation.


This just in - San Francisco and the surrounding Bay Area is expensive. There's a number of reasons for that, which pretty much boil down to...

1. It's a nice place to live. Good climate (no snow, not hot), nice scenery, right by the beach, plenty of nice restaurants, etc. So, demand for housing is high.
2. If you're in the right field (tech is the most obvious, but not the only one by a long shot - lots of finance there, too), you can make a metric boatload of money. This means that the amount of money available to pay for housing is high.

Of course, SF/Bay Area's environmental and tax policies don't help costs at all, but even if they switched to some sort of Libertarian Paradise tax and regulatory scheme (which isn't happening), the geography effectively prohibits building any further out, and the constant earthquakes makes building up a rather expensive and complicated proposition. Of course, that doesn't even touch on how strained the existing infrastructure is out there, between NIMBYs shooting down any significant BART expansion and environmentalists shooting down any freeway improvements, with local politicians happy that both sides at least agree that infrastructure spending is "undesirable", thus freeing up municipal tax money for more "beneficial" (read: directly supportive of key voting constituencies) programs.

Back to the point, though, if  desertfool is at $72k in the Bay Area, there's no guarantee that their line of work even exists outside of the area, and if it does, there's absolutely no guarantee that it pays anywhere near that well. Taking a $35k/year hit in pay to live in North Dakota isn't exactly a "net gain". Or, worse yet, the  only place that particular job exists might be in similarly expensive metro areas (think Seattle, New York, Boston, and so on).
 
2013-03-17 07:10:47 PM
The problem with the EU is the euro combined with virtually no central budget.  In the U.S., we bail out poor states all the time (you're welcome Mississippi).  Europe has strong central control without strong central accountability.  In the U.S. we have strong central control, but with payments to the poor and subsidies to the states we keep 2nd world states from turning into third world states.

The best option in a world economy when your economy tanks and your manufacturing base crashes is usually to inflate your currency.  It reduces your debt (although it doesn't do much for your deficit, except for the free money you are printing).  It taxes people with lots of cash, which gets them to spend money, which creates further stimulus, and it makes it expensive to buy anything from abroad, which means it helps local manufacturing (as long as you have natural resources to build things out of.)  EU member states have signed away their right to inflate their currency without getting promises to be bailed out.  Their only bargaining chip is to threaten to leave the EU and inflate their currency.  If they did this as a block, they might be able to leverage that, but a bunch of democracies and see if the Germans and French want the EU to work enough to put up or shut up.
 
2013-03-17 07:45:06 PM

GAT_00: Really? You're equally responsible for every action taken by your bank for having deposits in it?


That seems like a bit of a stretch but to be fair everyone in the world should know any business with the word "bank" in it is run by scumbags and should not make deposits there. So while on principle I agree that it was theft and those banks deserve to get bulldozed and robbed back, I can't say I'm surprised or necessarily sympathetic to the people who voluntarily deal with banks.
 
2013-03-17 08:18:51 PM

Cajnik: Whoa whoa whoa... Let's not just throw in the Russian Mafia card and call it a day. That's just lazy journalism

Everyone knows Cyprus has the lowest corporate tax rates in the EU. What sets them apart from some of those other tax islands is they are on the Euro. Half of the money might be from Russians, but not all Russian money is mafia money. So a Russian guy makes some money, doesn't trust the local bank and wants to keep it in Euros. People and legitimate businesses all over Europe will be affected by this, and as the article rightfully points out, especially the Cypriots (thanks illannoyin)


Where would that honest Russian guy live where he thrusts a Cypriot bank more than the local?

I can't even sarcastically come up with an answer where placing your money in Cyprus seems like a safe choice. Especially since this honest guy is Russian, he ought to know who else is using those banks.

If you're a honest Cypriot of course, that's your country, but anyone else using those banks can't have been up to any good. That's not where you place your honest money.
 
2013-03-17 08:29:00 PM

dumbobruni: hasty ambush: Alone in the Snark: Greece and Ireland went down, Spain nearly went down, France, UK and Italy are struggling, Germany and farking goddamn Scandinavia are roaring on all cylinders.

So you are correct that there is a relationship between welfare state and recession. You just got the sign wrong. Strongest welfare states did <i>best</i> in the recession.

Nope it is just catching up with them later.

Germany may fall into recession in 2013

"The cyclical outlook for the German economy has dimmed," said the Bundesbank in a statement. "There are even indications that economic activity may fall in the final quarter of 2012 and the first quarter of 2013."


And if your argument is that they did better maybe because Sweden introduced austerity measures AND cut taxes-in effect reduced their welfare burden

[www.americanthinker.com image 601x363]

[www.americanthinker.com image 600x368]

what your charts show: in times of good economic performance, Sweden cut government spending. Spain & Ireland did the same.

during the 2008 downturn, government spending increased to offset the economic decline. once the economy returned to normal, the budget cutting renewed.

the solution for the economies of Europe that are contracting is stimulus, not austerity.


You totally ingnored that DURING the downturn Sweden cut taxes and spending didn't you?

and:

Krugman Can't Admit He Was Wrong on Austerity: Latvia PM
 
2013-03-17 08:54:57 PM

Bad_Seed: hasty ambush: Swedish government

So, conservatives are now holding up Sweden as a model economy? I'm glad that liberals and conservatives can finally agree on something.

Now we just have to cut taxes down to Swedish levels, where people who earn $45000 a year can pay up to 70% of that in tax.

It's great that conservatives are finally willing to agree to sensible policies.


Does that mean you agree to sensible policies?

Sweden will cut its corporate tax rate next year to 22 percent to attract business investment, create new jobs and prevent companies from leaving the the Nordic region's biggest economy.

The government will spend about 16 billion kronor ($2.4 billion) to reduce the tax companies pay on profits, four years after cutting the rate to 26.3 percent from 28 percent in 2009, it said today.

"Corporate taxes are probably the most damaging tax of all," Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfeldt said at a news conference in Stockholm.


US combined effective Corporate tax rate 39.21%
BTW there is no 70% income tax rate in Sweden

Sweden has a bracketed income tax system with three income tax brackets, ranging from a low of 0.00% for those earning under kr372,100 to a high of 25.00% for those earning more then kr532,700 a year.
Of course they also like us have to pay local taxes and they have high VAT that hits not ony the rich.

Sorry to bust your liberal myths bubble but even Bill Maher thinks taxes are too high at 50%

Bill Maher: Taxes Too High on Rich, Liberals 'Could Actually Lose Me'


"You know what?" Maher responded, "Rich people ... actually do pay the freight in this country."

"I just saw these statistics. I mean, something like 70 percent. And here in California, I just want to say liberals -- you could actually lose me. It's outrageous what we're paying -- over 50 percent. I'm willing to pay my share, but yeah, it's ridiculous"
 
2013-03-17 09:56:32 PM

Cajnik: Whoa whoa whoa... Let's not just throw in the Russian Mafia card and call it a day. That's just lazy journalism

Everyone knows Cyprus has the lowest corporate tax rates in the EU. What sets them apart from some of those other tax islands is they are on the Euro. Half of the money might be from Russians, but not all Russian money is mafia money. So a Russian guy makes some money, doesn't trust the local bank and wants to keep it in Euros. People and legitimate businesses all over Europe will be affected by this, and as the article rightfully points out, especially the Cypriots (thanks illannoyin)


Except that it goes a very long way towards explaining why there's no real support for the tax evasion there, much less in any easily-toppled tax domicile.
 
2013-03-17 10:33:04 PM
So how is this not just petty larceny?
 
2013-03-17 11:21:34 PM
I'm going to take a guess and suggest this will probably destroy the Cyprus banking industry for good.
 
2013-03-18 01:18:29 AM
I'm not sure what's more alarming -- that this is happening, or that the US media (other than financial-specific) isn't reporting on it.   This should be front-page on EVERY news outlet.  The idea of this happening is unfathomable to me.  The fact that it is indeed happening should be a warning to everyone that it can happen elsewhere.

NYTimes: Nothing.
LATimes: Nothing
Miami Herald: Nothing
Boston Herald: Nothing
St. Pete Times: Nothing
USA Today: Nothing
San Jose Mercury: Nothing
Chicago Tribune: Nothing
Washington Post: Nothing

Seriously, WTF?
 
2013-03-18 02:14:25 AM
I'm assuming this is a one time thing (which does not make it right).  But what if the government decides doing it yearly is the way to go?  Currently, banks are paying a paltry 0.84% on a typical savings account.  About 2% in a credit union.  The inflation rate is also about 2%.  So the best you can hope for is to merely break even.  Now slap that 6.75% tax on it every year.  You're losing about 4 or 5 percentage points a year.  You are better off hiding your money in your mattress.

Banks require deposits so they have money to lend.  That's how they make money.  If there are no deposits, they have no money to loan out to buy a home, a car, or start a business.  If private banks cease to exist, it will fall upon the government to provide loans.  Think about the last time you went to a government office to get something done.  Now are you filled with confidence about getting a house loan?  Keep in mind the governments involved are broke and are now using panic tactics to raise money.

As for those people who think governments have unlimited resources and can never go broke.  Please find a large brick.  Now hit yourself in the face as hard as you can until you collapse.  You are too stupid to live.
 
2013-03-18 02:56:47 AM
Angela Merkel arrives at Athens airport for a finance summit meeting.

Immigration officer: "name?"

AM: "Angela Merkel"

Officer: "occupation?"

AM: "No - just staying for a few days"
 
2013-03-18 03:25:01 AM

Sean M: I'm not sure what's more alarming -- that this is happening, or that the US media (other than financial-specific) isn't reporting on it.   This should be front-page on EVERY news outlet.  The idea of this happening is unfathomable to me.  The fact that it is indeed happening should be a warning to everyone that it can happen elsewhere.

NYTimes: Nothing.
LATimes: Nothing
Miami Herald: Nothing
Boston Herald: Nothing
St. Pete Times: Nothing
USA Today: Nothing
San Jose Mercury: Nothing
Chicago Tribune: Nothing
Washington Post: Nothing

Seriously, WTF?


It's on the front page of the online edition of the New York Times. Didn't check the other papers. But yeah, it seems like this isn't being given the attention it deserves. When the banks reopen on Wednesday, it'll be a full blown bank run over there. I am waiting to see if the panic spreads to others in the EU.
 
2013-03-18 03:32:42 AM

Flint Ironstag: Angela Merkel arrives at Athens airport for a finance summit meeting.

Immigration officer: "name?"

AM: "Angela Merkel"

Officer: "occupation?"

AM: "No - just staying for a few days"


It took me a moment, then I laughed out loud.
 
2013-03-18 08:15:04 AM

Jonnadiah: Wow, the conservatards are out in full force this morning. Shouldn't you all be at church?


Coming to a bank near you! We conservatives don't think like liberal sheep, bet you'd be pissy too if banks stole your money.
 
2013-03-18 08:18:15 AM

ThatGuyGreg: Can't wait to hear how Obama is planning to do this.


He already bought billions of bullets and armored cars for the DHS.

It's coming full circle.
 
2013-03-18 08:36:37 AM

Sean M: I'm not sure what's more alarming -- that this is happening, or that the US media (other than financial-specific) isn't reporting on it.   This should be front-page on EVERY news outlet.  The idea of this happening is unfathomable to me.  The fact that it is indeed happening should be a warning to everyone that it can happen elsewhere.

NYTimes: Nothing.
LATimes: Nothing
Miami Herald: Nothing
Boston Herald: Nothing
St. Pete Times: Nothing
USA Today: Nothing
San Jose Mercury: Nothing
Chicago Tribune: Nothing
Washington Post: Nothing

Seriously, WTF?


US media is covering it:

CNN is covering it: http://money.cnn.com/2013/03/18/news/economy/europe-cyprus-bailout/in d ex.html?hpt=hp_t2

FOX "News" is covering it: http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2013/03/17/cyprus-debacle-reignite s -euro-fears-us-stock-futures-tumble/?intcmp=trending

NPR is covering it: http://www.npr.org/2013/03/18/174598781/e-u-bailout-tax-causes-bank-r u n-in-cyprus

The Associated Press wire service is definitely covering it: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_CYPRUS_FINANCIAL_CRISIS?SIT E =KYLOU&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-03-18-07-44-12

The major news networks are carrying it:
NBC News: http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/17/17345457-cypriots-asked - to-surrender-up-to-10-percent-of-bank-balances-in-return-for-eu-bailou t?lite

ABC News: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/spokesman-putin-cyprus- p lan-unjust-18752880

CBS News: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_162-57574768/tiny-cyprus-threatens - euro-stability/

The newspapers are covering it:

New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/19/business/global/asian-markets-drop- on-latest-euro-concerns.html?_r=0

USA Today: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/markets/2013/03/18/stocks-monday- 3 -18/1996069/

Los Angeles Times: http://www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-cyprus-lawmakers- h old-emergency-vote-on-bankdeposit-tax-20130318,0,5305756.story

Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/spokesman-putin-says-cyprus-pe r ilous-and-unjust/2013/03/18/33ad98ac-8fac-11e2-9173-7f87cda73b49_story .html
 
2013-03-18 10:08:13 AM

CujoQuarrel: Since you're only getting what %0.2 on your savings account it seems to me that the best thing to do is keep your money in cash. Get a safe deposit box and store it in the bank where it's safe (unless they plan on taking that too)



If you have more than $1000 of your money in "savings" accounts that typically earn 0.25%, you're doing it wrong.

If you honestly believe that the economy is going to truly crash and burn, your mattress money will have no value anyway. Might as well trade it in for things to barter when everything collapses.

If you don't believe that will happen, look into index funds. You're immediately diversified and have quite a bit of flexibility based on your risk-aversion. Even in the very worst of the last 10 years Vanguard's STAR earned over 5%. You can open an account with only $1000, and you can get a check or direct-deposit within 3 days if you have an emergency.
 
2013-03-18 10:34:28 AM

Dr. Goldshnoz: I can't say I'm surprised or necessarily sympathetic to the people who voluntarily deal with banks.


If you have any legitimate employment, or even if you're on an entitlement program, it is impossible to avoid dealing with banks. Your suggestion is patently absurd for about 99.95% of the population.

Even if I am adamant about it, my employer is NOT going to pay me in gold nuggets.
 
2013-03-18 11:25:13 AM
someone is too stupid to know what a credit union is.
 
2013-03-18 11:34:22 AM

Silverstaff: The major news networks are carrying it:


They're starting to cover it now, some two days after it happened.

The story still isn't getting the attention it deserves though.  I'm not that old, but I can't think of a time in my lifetime when a western government just flat-out seized assets of its citizens for its own benefit.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge of history can come up with a better example, but Germany's 3rd Reich is about the only example I can think of, and I hate to go there with this argument.
 
2013-03-18 12:29:10 PM

Flint Ironstag: I cannot believe they did this. In every other country with even a remote possibility of needing a bailout the first thing everyone will do is take all their money out of the bank so they won't lose a chunk of it if this happens to them. What do you get when millions of people start taking all their money out of the banks? A run on the banks. Which then guarantees they will need a bailout.

With interest rates so low there is nothing to lose by keeping all your money under your mattress, or transferring it to a bank account in a safe country.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens Tuesday morning there (Monday is a bank holiday) and in other vulnerable countries in Europe.


Done in one.
 
2013-03-18 12:56:48 PM

dalovindj: This is unsettling.  I think I'll move to the safe-bolted-to-the-floor approach to hold the lion's share of my savings.  Can't do too much about my 401k, but surplus cash over about $1,000 I'll no longer be keeping in a bank account.


Convert the 401K to a rollover IRA, then convert that to a self-directed IRA in the form of a Limited Liability Company (maybe the 401K could be converted directly to the self-directed IRA, I've never looked at that possibility). The LLC can invest in tangible things like real estate, businesses, etc. You wouldn't be 100% guaranteed that some money-hungry politician wouldn't come after it, but it would be much  less tempting a target than cash or liquid assets sitting in some account waiting to be confiscated or taxed, plus income property or businesses would generate income to add to your self-directed IRA.
 
2013-03-18 01:19:39 PM

Sean M: The story still isn't getting the attention it deserves though. I'm not that old, but I can't think of a time in my lifetime when a western government just flat-out seized assets of its citizens for its own benefit.


Every time a communist government took over it happened.  Sure, they said it was for the benefit of the people, but no one with a functional brain believes this.
 
2013-03-18 03:46:50 PM
Why doesn't Cyprus just print more money? It is what we do.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-03-18 05:10:09 PM
Why doesn't Cyprus just print more money? It is what we do.

Same reason Greece didn't. That traditional approach doesn't work with a regional currency.
 
2013-03-18 07:21:50 PM
ok, so no one here knows how and who pays for the 800 or so US banks the FDIC is having to clean up.  We pre-pay FDIC insurance permiums through the government to the FDIC adding to the deficit.  Some day, when the FDIC is done with the 300 or so remaining bad banks (and assuming there isn't another banking crisis) the banks will then repay all the premiums through lower interest to depositors.  Taxpayers pay the interest until the depositors repay the premiums through lower interest received.
Yeah!!! A happy ending for the rich people!
 
2013-03-20 03:19:16 AM

TIKIMAN87: Jonnadiah: Wow, the conservatards are out in full force this morning. Shouldn't you all be at church?

Coming to a bank near you! We conservatives don't think like liberal sheep, bet you'd be pissy too if banks stole your money.


Hard to take conservatives seriously when one of their mouths is calling for dismantling the banking system and the other mouth is calling for deregulating it even further in order for them to steal and con even more money from people.
 
2013-03-20 06:57:13 PM

Oatworm: Taking a $35k/year hit in pay to live in North Dakota isn't exactly a "net gain"


uhm... in Western ND the rent might be well above some places in SF.
 
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