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(Lowell Sun)   If a cop going 75 in a 30 zone with a BAC of 0.14% dies in a wreck, how many motions for reconsideration must the prosecutor file before the judge lets police blame the civilian driver with a BAC of 0.13%?   (lowellsun.com) divider line 132
    More: Asinine, BAC, motions, bus drivers, prosecutors, stop signs  
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10730 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Mar 2013 at 3:46 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-16 07:49:46 PM  
Well, someone has to go to jail for this and it's not going to be a cop.  Particularly not a dead cop.  So, you do the maths.
 
2013-03-16 08:05:04 PM  
Cop's kids need to go to college. Guy's insurance co, needs to pay for that.  Can't you guys see that?  It's for the children.
 
2013-03-16 08:18:04 PM  
At least the cop died doing what he loved.
 
2013-03-16 08:24:26 PM  

Hrist: someone going 75mph in a 45mph zone might very well be missed by someone that legally stopped and looked both ways.


This

It'd be next to impossible to judge the speed of a motorcycle at midnight let alone one doing 75 mph.  The motorcycle could have been in a blind spot or a block over when the guy started through the intersection.  What does the intersection look like?  Could you even see 100 feet down the road when stopped behind the line at the intersection?

I don't think a driver should have to account for someone doing more than double the posted speed limit when moving through an intersection.
 
2013-03-16 08:32:23 PM  

vpb: unlikely: vpb: It isn't automatically the fault of whoever has the highest BAC regardless of circumstances.

75 in a 30 had nothing to do with it

No.  It isn't a matter of who was going faster or who was drunker, it's a matter of who caused the accident.
The case was all about whether the guy in the Honda ran the stop sign or not.  The speed of the guy on the motorcycle has nothing to do with that.


By the logic of "the speed of the guy on the motorcyle has nothing to do with that", I present the following scenario: you are driving your car, totally sober, and come to a full stop at a stop sign, look and see that it appears clear to proceed because the nearest car is over two blocks away,  You enter the intersection and are T-boned by that car, driven by a drunk driver, driving over 100mph on a city street.  He dies.  You are guilty of manslaughter because of your failure to realize that his car was travelling so fast??

Yes, it was a matter of who caused the accident.  In this case, there is definitely shared blame.  Neither driver is 100% at fault.  If both had survived, I would expect both of them to be charged with impaired driving causing injury.
 
2013-03-16 08:50:01 PM  
0.173? That wouldn't even stop the withdrawal symptoms for me.
 
2013-03-16 08:52:18 PM  
It is important to realize there were no witnesses (Besides Chan).  The investigators only posit (based on contested and conflicting measures) that Chan didnt stop.  A necessary step in avoiding blame for the person traveling more than twice the speed limit (not contested).

If this had been two civilians the with the same set of circumstances, the person speeding would have been held responsible unquestionably.

With the deck stacked so overwhelmingly in favor of LEO's there should be no wonder why people are getting disgruntled with the obvious favorable judicial double standard.
 
2013-03-16 09:23:31 PM  
After thinking about it, I completely agree that the officers's death was no one's fault, but his own.  Had he been travelling 116 MPH instead of 75, this whole thing could have been avoided.
 
2013-03-16 09:27:38 PM  
Vehicular manslaughter is overkill.
Chan did appear to cause the accident, but the cop's speed is what killed him.
 
2013-03-16 09:36:14 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Roderick estimated Johnson [the cop] was going 75 mph as he sped through the intersection, while Chan [the non-cop], who says he stopped at the stop sign before going through the intersection, was traveling 22 mph.

While both men were allegedly legally drunk at the time of the crash, the Middlesex district attorney's office charged Chan with motor-vehicle homicide under the contributory-negligence law.
 

Yeah.  And the cop-suckers here wonder why people want nothing to do with cops, and call on them only out of desperation.


Actually I will only call them out of obligation.  Even I have family who were Law Enforcement, and I know a few officers and I will still call them because I am obligated to do so (report an accident, etc.)  I will do my best to not "require their assistance" otherwise though.
 
2013-03-16 10:11:20 PM  
The question should be who was drunk or drunker but who violated the established rules of right of way.

A little searching finds that it was at foster st & Princeton Boulevard in Lowell, MA. From google street view only Foster has stop signs. Visibility down Princeton from the stop line in either direction isn't good enough to pick up a motorcycle traveling at 75mph at night IMO. In the day nosing out to get a good look, yes.  Look for yourselves, it's just two residential streets with Princeton being the major street. 

They are trying to guess the speed of the accused's car. 22mph at the far side of the intersection is not unreasonable for healthy rate of acceleration, but where did this 22mph figure come from? It has to be some weird cop math because there isn't a way I am aware of to determine it. They could figure out the motorcycle's speed from skid marks, impact damage, and such, but the honda's speed leaves no evidence to determine it with any confidence level of value. Probably 22mph +/- 10mph or something like that. 

The Honda driver says he stopped. There is no evidence otherwise besides some bizarro math a cop came up with.

So let's say this was two sober non-cops. What happens? Even though the Honda driver should have yielded to traffic on Princeton, the dead motorcyclist going a provable 75mph is held at fault because it is considered to be unreasonable to pick up traffic going two and half times the posted speed limit on a residential street.  especially a motorcycle (small) at night (less visibility).

Except it wasn't two sober people it was a mundane with a BAC level greater than the arbitrary value of 0.08 and a cop with a BAC level greater than that same value. So people start changing reality to fit their belief system. Thus the Honda driver is going to prison.
 
2013-03-16 10:30:12 PM  

This Face Left Blank: 75mph in a 30mph zone?  I've NEVER been so drunk that I would find that to be a good idea.  Never.  Getting on a motorcycle while well over the legal limit is another lapse in judgement.  75 in a 30 WHILE drunk on a motorcycle?  Holy shiat.  Both drivers are at fault: they were drunk and they ignored traffic laws.  The real controversy here is how that cop got to be on the force with judgement like that.


It's judgement like that that made him such a great cop! Poor impulse control with no respect for the law? Are you kidding me? He was probably a captain!
 
2013-03-16 10:32:43 PM  

leadmetal: The question should be who was drunk or drunker but who violated the established rules of right of way.

A little searching finds that it was at foster st & Princeton Boulevard in Lowell, MA. From google street view only Foster has stop signs. Visibility down Princeton from the stop line in either direction isn't good enough to pick up a motorcycle traveling at 75mph at night IMO. In the day nosing out to get a good look, yes.  Look for yourselves, it's just two residential streets with Princeton being the major street. 

They are trying to guess the speed of the accused's car. 22mph at the far side of the intersection is not unreasonable for healthy rate of acceleration, but where did this 22mph figure come from? It has to be some weird cop math because there isn't a way I am aware of to determine it. They could figure out the motorcycle's speed from skid marks, impact damage, and such, but the honda's speed leaves no evidence to determine it with any confidence level of value. Probably 22mph +/- 10mph or something like that. 

The Honda driver says he stopped. There is no evidence otherwise besides some bizarro math a cop came up with.

So let's say this was two sober non-cops. What happens? Even though the Honda driver should have yielded to traffic on Princeton, the dead motorcyclist going a provable 75mph is held at fault because it is considered to be unreasonable to pick up traffic going two and half times the posted speed limit on a residential street.  especially a motorcycle (small) at night (less visibility).

Except it wasn't two sober people it was a mundane with a BAC level greater than the arbitrary value of 0.08 and a cop with a BAC level greater than that same value. So people start changing reality to fit their belief system. Thus the Honda driver is going to prison.


For some reason I read that in Sheldon Coopers voice....
 
2013-03-16 11:37:12 PM  
Also, have you considered the possibility that they're racist?

Looks like a collision between Officer Patrick Johnson and Mister Theary Chan.

The article has a photo of Mr. Chan.  Asian, all right, even caught in a goofy expression.

Anybody want to take bets on whether Officer Johnson was white, black, or otherwise?

For those of you who chose "White", step up and collect your winnings:  there's a photo of HIM on a memorial page dedicated to him.  Go ahead and Google the name and find it yourselves, no linky from me today.
 
2013-03-17 12:02:37 AM  
Chagrin: Google some of the older articles about this crash, they'll all have this description:
 
"An off-duty Lowell police officer was struck and killed by an alleged drunk driver early yesterday morning, officials said. Sergeant Patrick Johnson, 31, of Lowell, a six-year veteran of the department, was riding his motorcycle at Princeton Boulevard and Foster Street in Lowell around 12:30 a.m. when he was struck by another vehicle. "

The initial reports always describe the car hitting the motorcycle and not the other way around.

The earlier articles also state that the officer's wife was driving behind him in a car and witnessed the accident.


That is because the early articles would be based almost exclusively on the police report and the police report would favor the police officer.
 
2013-03-17 12:13:13 AM  

GoldDude: Yes, it was a matter of who caused the accident. In this case, there is definitely shared blame. Neither driver is 100% at fault. If both had survived, I would expect both of them to be charged with impaired driving causing injury.


I don't think it's shared at all. 75 mph in a 25 mph zone is reckless driving.  At that point it shouldn't matter what you hit, it's your fault. In particular if the cop had been going the speed limit he very likely would have walked away with minor injuries. So in this case, the cop put himself in mortal danger.
 
2013-03-17 12:37:17 AM  

cmunic8r99: jaylectricity: cmunic8r99: I you're going to get on a motorcycle drunk, you are trying to activate your organ donor card. They should have charged the civilian under whatever assisted suicide laws they have.

Why don't you tell that cute story about your mom, the nurse and that cute name they invented for motorcycles?

Sure. They called it a, "What the hell are you talking about?"


Haha, well, I'll tell you because you've been around awhile. Some time a few years ago somebody rambled on about a story of them being a nurse or something and they were in the ER and a victim of a motorcycle crash came in and it was a long and drawn out story only for the "punch line" to be, "In here, we call them donorcycles."

But at that time, the term donorcycles had been coined for many years and the person telling the story made us read paragraphs upon paragraphs to get to the punch line. And it did not go unnoticed. Somebody pointed out that they had not, in fact, invented the term donorcycle.

Or something like that. My joke was not at your expense.
 
2013-03-17 01:02:48 AM  

kingoomieiii: Drunk cop doing 75 on a motorcycle HITS drunk civilian doing 22 in a car. Civilian still tied up in court a year later.


Ding ding ding!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taman_Inquiry
 
2013-03-17 01:34:53 AM  
 
2013-03-17 02:48:20 AM  
He was drunk and he rolled the stop sign and sped up as soon as he did. Everyone rolls stops, but only asshats with a death wish slam the gas as soon as they do. And it's pretty likely a guy rocketing drunk down a small road at 2 am on a Harley is long for this world.

It's a great example of two people who should be dead, and it's impossible to feel sorry for either. Guess the other guy had a 1-UP in his pocket, too bad he's going to spend his entire extra life in jail.
 
2013-03-17 03:05:46 AM  

leadmetal: The Honda driver says he stopped. There is no evidence otherwise besides some bizarro math a cop came up with.


It'd be based on how far the vehicle traveled from the point of the crash, assuming the usual half-second reaction time and slammed brakes, since at that speed there probably wouldn't even be skid marks. (Funny thing about even heavy drinking is that it actually doesn't slow braking reaction time much, it just makes you more reckless.)
 
2013-03-17 06:18:04 AM  

vpb: unlikely: vpb: It isn't automatically the fault of whoever has the highest BAC regardless of circumstances.

75 in a 30 had nothing to do with it

No.  It isn't a matter of who was going faster or who was drunker, it's a matter of who caused the accident.
The case was all about whether the guy in the Honda ran the stop sign or not.  The speed of the guy on the motorcycle has nothing to do with that.


Yes it does.  One reason that motorcycles going recklessly fast get in crashes is because due to their speed, cagers are less likely to see them in time to avoid them.

Even if the cager is sober and a bike is at a safe speed, it's all to common for a cager to pull out in front of a bike because "I didn't see you coming."
 
2013-03-17 07:42:28 AM  

GBB: Followup question: Is it possible for 2 independent parties to be 100% at fault for the same incident?


That's what we lawyers call a tragedy :)
 
2013-03-17 07:45:44 AM  

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: vpb: unlikely: vpb: It isn't automatically the fault of whoever has the highest BAC regardless of circumstances.

75 in a 30 had nothing to do with it

No.  It isn't a matter of who was going faster or who was drunker, it's a matter of who caused the accident.
The case was all about whether the guy in the Honda ran the stop sign or not.  The speed of the guy on the motorcycle has nothing to do with that.

Yes it does.  One reason that motorcycles going recklessly fast get in crashes is because due to their speed, cagers are less likely to see them in time to avoid them.

Even if the cager is sober and a bike is at a safe speed, it's all to common for a cager to pull out in front of a bike because "I didn't see you coming."


Yep.  Worked in an ER for awhile, and bikers would regularly get brought in, having had Mom in her minivan merge right on top them in broad daylight.
 
2013-03-17 07:49:53 AM  

Semantic Warrior: que.guero: If you really want some outrage, Google the case of Bismarck Dinius in Clear Lake California. Or for convenience, here's a link --  http://justicefordinius.home.comcast.net/~justicefordinius/dinius/The _ Strange_Case_of_Bismarck_Dinius.html

I'm sorry, I'm still a nautical novice, but does't a sailboat always have right of way over any power boat?


Usually, but not always...vessel under tow, fishing boat with deployed gear, and ferry on scheduled route come to mind.

Plus, there's the "highest tonnage wins all collisions" unwritten rule...
 
2013-03-17 09:48:06 AM  

que.guero: If you really want some outrage, Google the case of Bismarck Dinius in Clear Lake California. Or for convenience, here's a link --  http://justicefordinius.home.comcast.net/~justicefordinius/dinius/The _ Strange_Case_of_Bismarck_Dinius.html


*shrug* Dont drive a boat drunk... and next time blame the dead person.
 
2013-03-17 12:04:22 PM  

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: Yes it does.  One reason that motorcycles going recklessly fast get in crashes is because due to their speed, cagers are less likely to see them in time to avoid them.

Even if the cager is sober and a bike is at a safe speed, it's all to common for a cager to pull out in front of a bike because "I didn't see you coming."


Sorry, but you lost any credibliity when you started using the term "cager".

Maybe if bikers didn't do stupid shiat like go 75 in a 30 or split lanes or weave in and out like maniacs they wouldn't die so often.
 
2013-03-17 01:14:22 PM  
Reading this on St. Patrick's Day couldn't be more appropriate.
 
2013-03-17 01:31:09 PM  

namatad: PunGent: Couple folks in this thread with their GEDs in law need to brush up on contributory negligence.

doesn not equal 100% fault


Nor does it equal ZERO percent fault, which is how some people are defending the cop here.

I'm not a knee-jerk cop-basher by any means...but riding your motorcycle at x2 the legal limit is dumb even if you're sober.
 
2013-03-17 01:43:23 PM  

SpeedyBB: namatad: kingoomieiii: One more response- the motorcycle who hit him at 75 MPH was going so fast that it is A COMPLETELY REASONABLE SCENARIO that the guy stopped at the sign and looked both ways, saw the motorcycle very far away, misjudged its speed due to perspective, and though it was safe to enter the road.

add to it ... that the driver who stopped, SAW the motorcycle in the far distance and had plenty of time to cross the road. ONLY because the motorcycle was speeding was this not true.

you could easily do the math to compute distances based on known speed of the motorcycle
but I am so lazy right now ....

DAMN IT
typical 2 lane intersection is ~ 20ft, add in 10ft for curbs and what not
30ft width

22 mph = 32 ft/sec
so double that for acceleration from a full stop
cross traffic was in the intersection for 1-2 seconds, depending on full stop, rolling stop, no stop

75mph = 110 ft/sec
at that speed the motorcycle covered 100ft ever second.

so you stop ... you look, you see the guy 100+ ft away, you proceed through the intersection.
instead of it taking him 3-5 seconds to get to the intersection and completely miss you, he t-bones you.

PLUS, every rational driver slows down while approaching an intersection. right?
give this basic physics, cop was 100% at fault.

the intersection would have been COMPLETELY clear if the cop had not been speeding.
/kill the cop ... wait he is dead already and they are trying to blame the innocent guy??? F'EM

We assume it was a Hardly-Ableson, so the arcane question of "stopping" does not factor in the same way (linky blinky, so DNRTFA).

Those obsolete agricultural implements are overweight, poorly suspended behemoths with feeble brakes. If the cop had been on an R-1 with steel brake lines and racing tires, well, he might still have stopped or maybe still dead from the precipitous halt - but he would have died with more panache...


Yeah, but he'd look like even more of a douche,
 
2013-03-17 05:06:41 PM  
Just gonna leave this here. Can you find the motorcycle?
 
2013-03-18 02:44:08 AM  

Happy Hours: Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: Yes it does.  One reason that motorcycles going recklessly fast get in crashes is because due to their speed, cagers are less likely to see them in time to avoid them.

Even if the cager is sober and a bike is at a safe speed, it's all to common for a cager to pull out in front of a bike because "I didn't see you coming."

Sorry, but you lost any credibliity when you started using the term "cager".

Maybe if bikers didn't do stupid shiat like go 75 in a 30 or split lanes or weave in and out like maniacs they wouldn't die so often.


riders who ride like that are a minority among motorcyclists and are looked down on because they make the rest of us look bad.
 
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