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(The Mary Sue)   Doctor Who showrunner Steven Moffat says that the Red Menace is over for good, explains how a clear resolution to the problem was impossible to air on television because audiences are too stupid   (themarysue.com) divider line 85
    More: Interesting, Doctor Who, Weeping Angels, dream sequence, Steven Moffat  
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5495 clicks; posted to Geek » on 16 Mar 2013 at 3:37 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-16 10:45:10 PM  
It would be interesting if, later on, someone asks the Doctor to go to the 30s and he's like, "Oh no, I can't go there ever again or I'll blow the entire space-time thingy apart."
 
2013-03-16 10:51:01 PM  
ftfa: "Basically, Moffat is saying the newer fans, the fans who aren't deeply obsessed with the show like we are, accepted what he presented as fact and didn't bother thinking too hard about it. That's not only rude to Whovians, that's just plain rude. "


You know what? fark all that fanboy hipsterism.

I watched Tom Baker's and Davison's entire run way back when, but I don't pretend for a minute that that fact gives me any particular cred worth mentioning. Makes no difference to me whether I'm one of 500,000 viewers or one of 50,000,000, other than appreciating that large audiences lend the enterprise a measure of business sense that makes future episodes possible.

I just want to be entertained, and I almost always am. If I wanted to be a member of an insignificant SF cult, I'd go be a Scientologist.
 
2013-03-16 10:54:03 PM  

Mad_Radhu: jonny_q: Mad_Radhu: I figure the not see in the Ponds again is a bit of a lie. I'm thinking he's got one last twist left for later in the season, where it will be revealed in a River episode that the older Ponds found Mel's in 1970 as a child on the streets of NYC, raise her through her childhood, and then send her to England in the 90s to meet their younger selves (I'm guess she rolled back her age or slow down her aging during this period). It's the final piece of the River story missing, and it allows the Ponds to finally raise their child, so it needs to happen.

They probably shot the footage already as part of the filming for the Angels episode. When they were filming that episode Karen Gillan tweeted that Arthur and Matt had put a picture o Mrs. Doubtfire on her trailer, apparently making fun of her old age makeup. Since she never appeared aged in this episode, and the tweet happened after The Girl Who Waited had already aired, there is apparently a scene of an older Amy we haven't seen yet that was shot buy not yet aired.

That's awesome, and you're probably exactly right. However, the whole of what you said could, with proper direction, be shown in about a minute of flashbacks and brief sequences.

Yeah, I expect it to just be a small part at the end of a River episode, and not a major guest appearance. Still, I have a feeling that with all the pieces in place, we still haven't seen the very last of the Ponds yet.



Yes, that could have been done for future use, just like the brief rewind scenes for The Big Bang were shot with the episodes in which they took place.

But you approach the other problem with the paradox risk barring the Doctor's return to the Williamses --River is still able to go back, at least once if not more times.  She takes Amy the manuscript at some point and presumably also picks up her young Black self to deliver to the future & Leadworth. She also previously (from her perspective) made at least two trips to the city in their lifetimes - not only is her childhood self in Manhattan in 1970, but her adult self is there (along with the TARDIS, the Doctor, Rory, the Ganger duplicate of Amy, and two Canton Delawares) about six months before that. She either saw her 60-something-year-old parents there at that time, or made another trip prior (her perspective) to The Angels Take Manhattan, because she knew damn well at the cemetery in Queens that Amy's plan would work. The Doctor plead with Amy not to risk it, but River confidently encouraged her to turn her back on the Angel and get sent to 1938.

Of course, the Doctor and the TARDIS will also show up in New York twice in Amy & Rory's lifetime -- but had already done so in his & the TARDIS' relative past. Besides the 1969 visit mentioned above, he is there two years earlier (Earth's perspective) / a few hundred years earlier (his & the TARDIS' perspective) when he flies through the city, checking out the sites and materializes on the Empire State Building's observation deck, with Daleks in hot pursuit.

Now, even if Karen Gillan won't reprise her role, that doesn't mean that the Doctor can't bump into Auton Rory sometime in the nearly 2 millennia in which he stood guard.  There are also Caitlin Blackwell, Ezekiel Wigglesworth and Maya Glace-Green. who can fill in more gaps about the Ponds-Williamses' teen years.
 
2013-03-16 11:03:51 PM  

HopScotchNSoda: that doesn't mean that the Doctor can't bump into Auton Rory sometime in the nearly 2 millennia in which he stood guard


That timeline was wiped out at the end of "The Big Bang".
 
2013-03-16 11:09:30 PM  
When double-checking my memory to confirm that, yes, Day of the Moon was, from River's perspective, prior to The Angels Take Manhattan (she received the Doctor's invitation to the picnic while she was in her cell, and he returned her there after Armstrong's broadcast), something else just occurred to me. After she received the invitation and disappeared, the guards reported that she was believed to be headed toward some planet called America.  OK, cute-ish meh joke at the time, but W T Fing F?  She was going to exactly the time-space coordinates of the scene of her crime for which she was imprisoned, but they don't recognise that?
 
2013-03-16 11:10:55 PM  

angrymacface: HopScotchNSoda: that doesn't mean that the Doctor can't bump into Auton Rory sometime in the nearly 2 millennia in which he stood guard

That timeline was wiped out at the end of "The Big Bang".


Do people still not get that pretty much the entire series 5 storyline does not exist anymore?
 
2013-03-16 11:15:59 PM  

angrymacface: HopScotchNSoda: that doesn't mean that the Doctor can't bump into Auton Rory sometime in the nearly 2 millennia in which he stood guard

That timeline was wiped out at the end of "The Big Bang".



Right, and he's never crossed into parallel timelines before -- like the one in which the Brigadier -- pardon me, "Brigade Leader" -- had an eyepatch and no moustache, or the one in which Pete Tyler was alive and Rose was never born, or the one in which everything was stuck at the moment of River farking the universe, or the one that apparently had two consecutive 2006s.
 
2013-03-16 11:21:14 PM  

Surool: angrymacface: HopScotchNSoda: that doesn't mean that the Doctor can't bump into Auton Rory sometime in the nearly 2 millennia in which he stood guard

That timeline was wiped out at the end of "The Big Bang".

Do people still not get that pretty much the entire series 5 storyline does not exist anymore?


Ah, but it does, because most of the stuff that was un-done by the Doctor rebooting the universe was recreated by Amy and Rory remembering the Doctor at their wedding reception.  The flashback scenes in "Let's Kill Hitler" also depict the gap in the middle of The Eleventh Hour, presumably aside from Angus & Tabetha being missing.
 
2013-03-16 11:34:40 PM  

HopScotchNSoda: Surool: angrymacface: HopScotchNSoda: that doesn't mean that the Doctor can't bump into Auton Rory sometime in the nearly 2 millennia in which he stood guard

That timeline was wiped out at the end of "The Big Bang".

Do people still not get that pretty much the entire series 5 storyline does not exist anymore?

Ah, but it does, because most of the stuff that was un-done by the Doctor rebooting the universe was recreated by Amy and Rory remembering the Doctor at their wedding reception.  The flashback scenes in "Let's Kill Hitler" also depict the gap in the middle of The Eleventh Hour, presumably aside from Angus & Tabetha being missing.


They remember the timeline, but we were never filled in on how all that happened in the version where Amy's family was always with her. Rory talked about his memories of being a centurion as being separate from his regular memories, but they were there when he looked for them.
 
2013-03-16 11:37:50 PM  

HopScotchNSoda: Ah, but it does, because most of the stuff that was un-done by the Doctor rebooting the universe was recreated by Amy and Rory remembering the Doctor at their wedding reception.


Possibly. Possibly not. Rory didn't die, wasn't erased from history, and then brought back as an Auton.  So *some* things were changed. However, Craig (from The Lodger) remembered the Doctor and everything that had happened, so some things remained from the original timeline.
 
2013-03-16 11:59:46 PM  

angrymacface: HopScotchNSoda: Ah, but it does, because most of the stuff that was un-done by the Doctor rebooting the universe was recreated by Amy and Rory remembering the Doctor at their wedding reception.

Possibly. Possibly not. Rory didn't die, wasn't erased from history, and then brought back as an Auton.  So *some* things were changed. However, Craig (from The Lodger) remembered the Doctor and everything that had happened, so some things remained from the original timeline.


And Amy's first adventure with adult, Caucasian River still occurred as well. The epilogue of The Wedding of River Song took place (from River's perspective), right after leaving the Crash of the Byzantium.  That is, to say when the Doctor and Amy left the crash site in the TARDIS to her boudoir Leadworth in 2009, River flew to Amy's & Rory's London back yard in 2010.
 
2013-03-17 12:01:00 AM  

angrymacface: HopScotchNSoda: Ah, but it does, because most of the stuff that was un-done by the Doctor rebooting the universe was recreated by Amy and Rory remembering the Doctor at their wedding reception.

Possibly. Possibly not. Rory didn't die, wasn't erased from history, and then brought back as an Auton.  So *some* things were changed. However, Craig (from The Lodger) remembered the Doctor and everything that had happened, so some things remained from the original timeline.


My bet would be the things related to the crack disappeared (for instance, the Vampires in Venice wouldn't have happened because they wouldn't have been fleeing the cracks, since they didn't exist) whereas other things would have stayed the same (The Lodger would have happened because, presumably, the ship crashing had nothing to do with the cracks) -- at least, that's how I interpret it.
 
2013-03-17 12:05:55 AM  

HopScotchNSoda: angrymacface: HopScotchNSoda: Ah, but it does, because most of the stuff that was un-done by the Doctor rebooting the universe was recreated by Amy and Rory remembering the Doctor at their wedding reception.

Possibly. Possibly not. Rory didn't die, wasn't erased from history, and then brought back as an Auton.  So *some* things were changed. However, Craig (from The Lodger) remembered the Doctor and everything that had happened, so some things remained from the original timeline.

And Amy's first adventure with adult, Caucasian River still occurred as well. The epilogue of The Wedding of River Song took place (from River's perspective), right after leaving the Crash of the Byzantium.  That is, to say when the Doctor and Amy left the crash site in the TARDIS to her boudoir Leadworth in 2009, River flew to Amy's & Rory's London back yard in 2010.


Ever wonder how the Byantium incident happened in the Big Bang 2 universe without the crack to make the Angels disappear?
 
2013-03-17 12:13:32 AM  

Surool: Ever wonder how the Byantium incident happened in the Big Bang 2 universe without the crack to make the Angels disappear?



Wibbly, wobbly, timey, wimey.

Danny Boy's space-spitfires also existed post Big Bang.

Which reminds me, I didn't see any of the olive drab Daleks with the Union Jack decals and ammunition bandoleers in "Asylum of the Daleks".  Did anyone else spot them?  The Beeb had claimed that all Dalek models would be depicted.  "Would you like some teaaaaaaaaaa with your souffleeeeeeee?"
 
2013-03-17 12:15:21 AM  

HopScotchNSoda: Danny Boy's space-spitfires also existed post Big Bang.


That story wasn't driven by the crack in the universe we saw, it was just kind of "there".
 
2013-03-17 12:22:42 AM  
repeat to yourself, "It's just a show,I should really just relax"

Sure, the physics of the thing isn't specified, but to my knowledge they haven't tired to give one. If you're worldly about science, you learn that not much is actually impossible: things are either (i) very, very unlikely (e.g. like a cup unbreaking itself), or (ii) take giant amounts of energy (e.g. some solutions of GR might permit time travel, but bending space to do it requires too much energy). That's a pretty big literary playing field. Their task is merely to make it seem plausible, which shouldn't be too hard.

In this episode, the Dr. realizes he didn't go back and "save" them from the past; they died (i.e. the gravestone) and lived a life without him (as evidenced in the text of the book). It's not that he couldn't go back, he just didn't, and this fact saddens him, I think.
 
2013-03-17 12:51:43 AM  
golden goat: In this episode, the Dr. realizes he didn't go back and "save" them from the past; they died (i.e. the gravestone) and lived a life without him (as evidenced in the text of the book). It's not that he couldn't go back, he just didn't, and this fact saddens him, I think.

It's more that he doesn't  need to go back.  What does he need to rescue them from?  At about the point he realizes what's happened, he's already learned that they were together, and lived full and happy lives.  He doesn't have any need to "save" them, since they're happy.  It's their happily ever after.  He's sad because he's realized that he's not a part of that ever after.  It's the culmination of the whole "the companions have lives outside the Doctor" theme of the season.  That's when it really comes home to roost for the Doctor; they didn't need him or adventures to be happy, they really only needed each other.

So he let them be happy.  It's the recognition that their happiness involves his absence that makes him sad.
 
2013-03-17 12:51:50 AM  

Surool: HopScotchNSoda: Danny Boy's space-spitfires also existed post Big Bang.

That story wasn't driven by the crack in the universe we saw, it was just kind of "there".


It's been a while, but didn't the crack allowed the Daleks to show up and get integrated into the Chiefs of Staff Committee and the War Cabinet?
 
2013-03-17 12:52:51 AM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: Gosling: whizbangthedirtfarmer: Moffat does the same thing with DW that he does with Sherlock: if it looks pretty, he hopes you won't notice the massive plot holes that make no sense.

When you watch Doctor Who, part of the unwritten contract is 'try not to think too hard about the plot holes because things get very timey-wimey around here; please remember that you're still a damn sight better off than the old guard who used to have to deal with guys in rubber monster suits'.

I have yet to think of an episode that Matt Smith has been in that will achieve the "classic" status that some of the episodes with the guys in rubber monster suits have achieved, and that's a shame, because Smith has gotten his interpretation down.  Unfortunately, the companions and the scripts have been incredibly shiatty.


Moffat's run is a symptom of what has happened to comic books in the last 30 years... it shows the damage that can be done when fanboys take over a property and try to make their fanfiction reality, so to speak.

I mean, Moffat used the old "well, they wouldn't understand my explanation like us real fans would" excuse in this article... creators shouldn't be that fanboyish. It winds up hurting the creation they're working on.
 
2013-03-17 02:16:34 AM  
BattleFrenchie28:  RassilonsExWife: Nicholas D. Wolfwood: Yep, a lot of stuff there to love in Doctor Who.  I hope folks won't mind if I love it for its indomitable spirit, even I smile tolerantly at its hard science lapses.  Because, occasionally, the power of the story trumps the power of physics.

Your newsletter. Let me subscribe to it. :)


Sorry, no newsletter.  I think one of the best, fastest way to kill ideas and discourse is to have to crank stuff out, to order, on a deadline.  (At least in my case.  I doubt I would ever have a whole lot of stuff to say that anyone would find any value in.  As Tom Lehrer said, "I feel that if a person cannot communicate, the very least they can do is to Shut Up."  If I don't think I have anything worthwhile to add, I tend to clam up.  And as slow as my mind works, the worthwhile stuff is few and far between.)

I've never seen anyone kick so much ass in my entire life.

/obscure?


Heh.  Don't know if it's obscure or not, but *I* appreciated the comment.

Vash would make a cool companion.

Vash?  as a companion?  Well, assuming you're talking about 'Vash the Stampede', and not Captain Picard's larcenous acquaintance (who might herself make a decent companion, a la Lady Christina), I -   I -

... I would have to have serious doubts about putting The Doctor into continued proximity to Vash.  Yes, Vash is quite dedicated to finding other solutions than guns to every problem that comes along - but he IS willing to fire when he feels the situation warrants.  And that third gun would *HAVE* to give The Doctor a serious case of the heebie-jeebies.  Hell, that third gun might give *Rassilon* pause.

I've been busy today, untangling various misbehaving machines, and I haven't read this whole thread (have to get to it sometime soon - the glimpses look fascinating).  But one thing occurs, that I don't know if anyone has touched on.

Re: the bullshiat explanation The Doctor gave for not saving Amy and Rory.  Do people realize that the *only* authority present, who can speak to temporal dynamics, the Rules of Time, and all of the wibbly-wobbly stuff...

... is The Doctor.

And Rule #1 is, The Doctor Lies.

If The Doctor wanted to keep his enemies from going after two dear friends who had stood their watch and wanted to live their own lives, would he lie?

I have had serious philosophical disagreements with The Doctor over the decades, particularly in the areas of ethics and morality.  If I were sitting around sharing a beer with the gentleman, I might suggest to him that it's goddam easy to 'take the high road' and refrain from using a violent solution to a life-or-death situation, IF!  you have godlike Gallifreyan technology at your disposal.

For us mere mortals, though, 'What we've got is, What we've got'.  In a whole lot of cases, we do Not have the luxury of The Doctor's ideals.  The Doctor never has acknowledged it (to my imperfect knowledge), but available technology really does change the range of options available to a person.  Just as the technology available to Vash provided him with options that the rest of us could not imagine.

In my opinion, one of the most impressive scenes (and one of the most telling shots ever landed on The Doctor by an enemy) was Davros' speech in 'Journey's End' (season 4 finale).  To paraphrase:  "You never carry a gun.  You turn your friends into guns."  The Doctor had little to say to that, as I recall - it hit him right in his guilt.

And that may be the best theme of the entire show, constantly on display but never (or rarely) overtly stated.  The loneliness of the godlike Doctor, his need for his companions, but who are so far behind in overt power that simply by being with them, he can destroy them.  And that is why he works so hard to stretch them into something more.

Looking over my last two paragraphs, perhaps The Doctor and Vash might understand each other better than I thought.

/ though, philosophically, teaming up The Doctor with another pair of time travelers who used a phone booth might be entertaining.  "Be Excellent To Each Other" always struck me as an unjustifiably underrated philosophy, and one which I think both The Doctor and Vash would approve of.
 
2013-03-17 02:32:47 AM  

HopScotchNSoda: Surool: HopScotchNSoda: Danny Boy's space-spitfires also existed post Big Bang.

That story wasn't driven by the crack in the universe we saw, it was just kind of "there".

It's been a while, but didn't the crack allowed the Daleks to show up and get integrated into the Chiefs of Staff Committee and the War Cabinet?


No.
 
2013-03-17 05:33:14 AM  
Explain it away however you want, but the episode just didn't work. Even if you accept that "Oooh, they got away with ONE paradox and that solved everything, but they couldn't pull TWO because space physics and timey wimey mishmash and maybe something something about those paradox-chomping Reapers from 'Father's Day' that never get airtime anymore", it still doesn't explain why Amy lets the Angel get her rather than just have the Doctor take her to Rory via the Tardis. Why would she willingly provide a second helping to one of the beasties she'd fought so hard to destroy? It was a counter-intuitive way to dispose of a character who'd never backed down from any enemy in the series.

Also, the big Angel gimmick is that they send you backwards for an amount of time which precisely equals your remaining lifespan, so the day you were taken will become the day you die. Why then are Amy and Rory confronted with tombstones instead of their aged selves? (I half expected Christopher Lloyd to dash in and deliver one of his trademark "Great Scott!"s at that moment.) And I'm sorry, but there's zero excuse for the snarling Ghostbusters 2 Redux Lady Liberty, complete with thundering footsteps that shake the entire building (and presumably the whole city) as it approaches. Oh sure, you could write it off as something that was noticed by loads of people, however the Ponds erased that timeline with their paradox so Stompy Statue LL never happened, but it was a wildly silly image that should never have passed the scriptwriting stage. You have to forgive a lot to enjoy the new Who, but that was just way too overindulgent and goofy, especially for a scene that was meant to be scary rather than howlingly funny. It wasn't "Gollum Jesus Doctor" bad, but it was dumb enough to knock "space whale" down a notch on the list of Most Ridiculous Moffat Moments To Date..
 
2013-03-17 06:41:47 AM  
I`m just glad amy is dead and will never return. She can`t act and was just an excuse to have a miniskirt running around on set. Rory on the other hand was excellent. Also his dad. I could have watched them for many more episodes.

Looking forward to the new companion though, she seems smart and funny instead of angry and stupid...
 
2013-03-17 07:33:50 AM  

EdgeRunner: Also, the big Angel gimmick is that they send you backwards for an amount of time which precisely equals your remaining lifespan, so the day you were taken will become the day you die.


This has never been stated in the show. In fact, something different was stated. Each angel takes you back to a specific time, unique to that particular angel. So, unless it preys on victims that will always die at the same time, what you claim here is simply false.
 
2013-03-17 08:52:54 AM  

EdgeRunner: Explain it away however you want, but the episode just didn't work. Even if you accept that "Oooh, they got away with ONE paradox and that solved everything, but they couldn't pull TWO because space physics and timey wimey mishmash and maybe something something about those paradox-chomping Reapers from 'Father's Day' that never get airtime anymore", it still doesn't explain why Amy lets the Angel get her rather than just have the Doctor take her to Rory via the Tardis. Why would she willingly provide a second helping to one of the beasties she'd fought so hard to destroy? It was a counter-intuitive way to dispose of a character who'd never backed down from any enemy in the series.

Also, the big Angel gimmick is that they send you backwards for an amount of time which precisely equals your remaining lifespan, so the day you were taken will become the day you die. Why then are Amy and Rory confronted with tombstones instead of their aged selves? (I half expected Christopher Lloyd to dash in and deliver one of his trademark "Great Scott!"s at that moment.) And I'm sorry, but there's zero excuse for the snarling Ghostbusters 2 Redux Lady Liberty, complete with thundering footsteps that shake the entire building (and presumably the whole city) as it approaches. Oh sure, you could write it off as something that was noticed by loads of people, however the Ponds erased that timeline with their paradox so Stompy Statue LL never happened, but it was a wildly silly image that should never have passed the scriptwriting stage. You have to forgive a lot to enjoy the new Who, but that was just way too overindulgent and goofy, especially for a scene that was meant to be scary rather than howlingly funny. It wasn't "Gollum Jesus Doctor" bad, but it was dumb enough to knock "space whale" down a notch on the list of Most Ridiculous Moffat Moments To Date..


And thus, one of the flaws with Moffat's "movie poster" theme: it requires some degree of scripting.  I have to wonder if Moffat and the writers were influenced by the internet.  The initial announcement mentioned NYC and the Angels, and everyone instantly made the connection to Liberty.  Or did they just film in NYC so they could bring in that one shot?  If so, that's even worse.

As far as the Space Whale, there were some good moments, including Smith's blowup at the end, and the little references to Vengeance at Varos.
 
2013-03-17 09:47:21 AM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: EdgeRunner: Explain it away however you want, but the episode just didn't work. Even if you accept that "Oooh, they got away with ONE paradox and that solved everything, but they couldn't pull TWO because space physics and timey wimey mishmash and maybe something something about those paradox-chomping Reapers from 'Father's Day' that never get airtime anymore", it still doesn't explain why Amy lets the Angel get her rather than just have the Doctor take her to Rory via the Tardis. Why would she willingly provide a second helping to one of the beasties she'd fought so hard to destroy? It was a counter-intuitive way to dispose of a character who'd never backed down from any enemy in the series.

Also, the big Angel gimmick is that they send you backwards for an amount of time which precisely equals your remaining lifespan, so the day you were taken will become the day you die. Why then are Amy and Rory confronted with tombstones instead of their aged selves? (I half expected Christopher Lloyd to dash in and deliver one of his trademark "Great Scott!"s at that moment.) And I'm sorry, but there's zero excuse for the snarling Ghostbusters 2 Redux Lady Liberty, complete with thundering footsteps that shake the entire building (and presumably the whole city) as it approaches. Oh sure, you could write it off as something that was noticed by loads of people, however the Ponds erased that timeline with their paradox so Stompy Statue LL never happened, but it was a wildly silly image that should never have passed the scriptwriting stage. You have to forgive a lot to enjoy the new Who, but that was just way too overindulgent and goofy, especially for a scene that was meant to be scary rather than howlingly funny. It wasn't "Gollum Jesus Doctor" bad, but it was dumb enough to knock "space whale" down a notch on the list of Most Ridiculous Moffat Moments To Date..

And thus, one of the flaws with Moffat's "movie poster" theme: it requires some degree of scripting.  I have to wonder if Moffat and the writers were influenced by the internet.  The initial announcement mentioned NYC and the Angels, and everyone instantly made the connection to Liberty.  Or did they just film in NYC so they could bring in that one shot?  If so, that's even worse.

As far as the Space Whale, there were some good moments, including Smith's blowup at the end, and the little references to Vengeance at Varos.


Which may have been a nice nod to Colin Baker's era, since IIRC, Vengeance on Varos replaced a story they couldn't finish about a space whale.

A space whale story was also planned for Baker's lost 1985 season.
 
2013-03-17 11:09:05 AM  

jack21221: EdgeRunner: Also, the big Angel gimmick is that they send you backwards for an amount of time which precisely equals your remaining lifespan, so the day you were taken will become the day you die.

This has never been stated in the show. In fact, something different was stated. Each angel takes you back to a specific time, unique to that particular angel. So, unless it preys on victims that will always die at the same time, what you claim here is simply false.


Since Moffat likes to play fast and loose with whatever the rules are with Angels, I'll give you that one. But that just highlights the whole internal consistency problem. In fiction, you can break every law of physics with wild abandon and your audience will accept it if you offer plausible or entertaining reasons for it. But the minute you start breaking your own self-established rules, or worse, reveal you had no rules to begin with, suspension of disbelief goes right out the window.
 
2013-03-17 11:35:32 AM  

dready zim: I`m just glad amy is dead and will never return. She can`t act and was just an excuse to have a miniskirt running around on set.


You use accent marks for apostrophes. Your argument is invalid.

Seriously, though, can't act? From the rest of your comment it sounds like what you mean is that you don't like the role she was given to act in. I get that people didn't like how angry her character was, for example. But when half your lines are "So help me, Doctor, I'm so furious right now," it's not because of acting choices she's making that she seems angry.

Karen Gillan did just fine with the occasional funny lines she was given, and she acted well enough to make me believe that she'd bone a 900-year-old asexual ponce just for... well, the scripts never really explained why, but still, I bought it. That's a solid day's work as an actor.
 
2013-03-17 12:00:40 PM  

EdgeRunner: Since Moffat likes to play fast and loose with whatever the rules are with Angels, I'll give you that one.


That's actually not what I said. Can you provide an episode reference which states that the Angels send you back the exact amount of time it takes you to die? I don't think it exists; I think you just made that up.

My reference is Blink. The Doctor and Martha got taken by the same Angel, which is why they both went back at the same time. Same with the cop they meet.
 
2013-03-17 01:16:06 PM  
"The Angels Take Manhattan" also seemed like an homage to the finale of Life on Mars (the original BBC version, starring a pre-Master John Simm as Sam Tyler for whom Rose was named).  Sam went to a cemetery where he saw headstones with his and his parents' names, just as Rory and River did. Sam decided to commit suicide by jumping off of a rooftop to return to a preferable world.  Sam's jump was a leap of faith that he would be sent back to the past to be reunited with the people he loved. Sam's childhood self is silently seen for a moment. The person whom Sam most loved and was reunited with in the past was played by Liz White who guest-starred in the subsequent DW episode. River's Melody Malone memoir was also akin to the record that Sam made of his experiences in the past, which he sent to Alex who relied upon it when she was sent back.

CSB time: I immediately got the LOM vibe from the episode as I watched the climax at the cemetery. Then, right after the episode ended, I heard from the biergarten of the bar next door to my apartment, "It's a god-awful small affair... to the girl with the mousy hair..." just starting up.  Mind you, I was watching a torrent on my own schedule; it's not like the episode had just aired here on BBCA. I was actually tempted to go next door just to assure myself that Nelson wasn't tending bar and that the place wasn't full of dead coppers.
 
2013-03-17 04:23:21 PM  

jack21221: EdgeRunner: Also, the big Angel gimmick is that they send you backwards for an amount of time which precisely equals your remaining lifespan, so the day you were taken will become the day you die.

This has never been stated in the show. In fact, something different was stated. Each angel takes you back to a specific time, unique to that particular angel. So, unless it preys on victims that will always die at the same time, what you claim here is simply false.


Yeah, it just happened to work that way with the black cop but it it were always the case then the Doctor would have been sent back hundreds or even thousands of years, not 40.
 
2013-03-17 05:45:16 PM  

Flint Ironstag: jack21221: EdgeRunner: Also, the big Angel gimmick is that they send you backwards for an amount of time which precisely equals your remaining lifespan, so the day you were taken will become the day you die.

This has never been stated in the show. In fact, something different was stated. Each angel takes you back to a specific time, unique to that particular angel. So, unless it preys on victims that will always die at the same time, what you claim here is simply false.

Yeah, it just happened to work that way with the black cop but it it were always the case then the Doctor would have been sent back hundreds or even thousands of years, not 40.


Also, don't forget that Kathy Nightingale died in 1988, even though she was touched by the Angels in 2008.
 
2013-03-18 01:30:58 PM  

semiotix: dready zim: I`m just glad amy is dead and will never return. She can`t act and was just an excuse to have a miniskirt running around on set.

You use accent marks for apostrophes. Your argument is invalid.


You noticed I use accent marks instead of apostrophes, your argument is invalid.
 
2013-03-18 08:22:32 PM  
I just realised something a moment ago.  The Tenth Doctor told Ood Sigma at the start of "The End of Time" that he married Elizabeth I. So when Amy coincidently married Henry VIII in "The Power of Three", she became Elizabeth I's step-mother and thus the Doctor's double mother-in-law.
 
2013-03-18 08:23:49 PM  

HopScotchNSoda: I just realised something a moment ago.  The Tenth Doctor told Ood Sigma at the start of "The End of Time" that he married Elizabeth I. So when Amy  coincidently accidentally married Henry VIII in "The Power of Three", she became Elizabeth I's step-mother and thus the Doctor's double mother-in-law.

 
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