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(The Big Story)   U.S. last week: "We're not concerned about a nuclear threat from North Korea." U.S. this week: "Uhh, let's add some interceptors along the west coast. You know, just in case"   (bigstory.ap.org) divider line 55
    More: Scary, North Koreans, interceptors, U.S., North Korean ICBM, Vandenberg Air Force Base, Air Force bases, missile defense, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel  
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6927 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Mar 2013 at 4:56 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-03-15 04:20:24 PM
5 votes:
Better to have them and not need them than to need them and not have them.
2013-03-15 04:47:04 PM
4 votes:
Sounds more like someone in the US needed another scoop from the pork barrel.
2013-03-15 05:48:50 PM
3 votes:
Even the NK regime are not THAT stupid. can you IMAGINE what the US would do if a foreign power actually launched an outright military strike at US soil? Look what you did to afghanistan when they just allowed the farkers to sit in their territory..

There is a reason attacks on major nations are all done by non-state terrorist groups you know..
2013-03-15 05:22:20 PM
3 votes:

JeffDenver: I like how all the liberals have finally STFU about missile defense. It's a good thing we ignored your assholes and funded it anyway eh?


March 18, 1999
WASHINGTON -- "Reacting to warnings that missiles from several emerging nations could soon be capable of hitting the United States, the Senate voted yesterday to build a national defense system as soon as the technology is developed

"The legislation, which the Senate approved 97-3, follows several unexpected missile launches by foreign nations, including a long-range ballistic missile tested by North Korea last August, and medium-range tests by Iran.  The fear is that those nations will soon have the capacity to fire rockets to the United States."

105th Senate:1997-1999(D)45(R) 55

Wait, you mean JeffDenver is talking out his ass?
No Way!
2013-03-15 03:49:42 PM
3 votes:
I'm not even remotely sold on the notion that North Korea has an ICBM deployable warhead.

Three possibly fizzled underground tests aren't real convincing.

So I'm guessing this is more for public consumption than anything practical.
2013-03-15 09:43:50 PM
2 votes:

MurphyMurphy: The reason we have such abysmal security regarding our ports is because there really isn't a feasible way to check everything without grinding our ports (and consequently our economy) to a complete stall.

Facts do stop them, quite often actually.


Not really, no. It's  hard to hide a device like North Korea has the technology for. Those devices are crude, require a lot of shielding, and put off a lot of waste decay. The Department of Energy NEST teams have been doing nuclear threat detection and response for the past few decades now, and the US has drones that can scan large areas for radioactive material and nuclear devices.
2013-03-15 06:20:42 PM
2 votes:
It's also worth noting that these missiles are not just another Patriot battery being parked at a base. It will take years to get these online. Is it that far-fetched that the NK's could have a missile capable of reaching California or Alaska reliably in 3-4 years?

I get the whole argument that this is just another made up enemy of the US to feed the defense contractors. I know they're still a backwards nation far from "mastering" rocket technology or nuke minaturization. But they're not exactly helping their own cause here by routinely threatening to rain destruction upon the US. I don't think they're an existential threat to the US, but the government is absolutely a threat and they are, to put it simply, a clear and defined enemy of the USA. I have NO problem in the grand scheme of defense spending to put a billion dollars on a few extra interceptors to defend against these guys. If that means we can ignore their sabre-rattling a little easier than it's money well spent.
2013-03-15 05:17:49 PM
2 votes:
It's pretty clear that the North doesn't have a suitable warhead for deployment on an ICBM, nor do they likely have an ICBM that could reliably hit the western US. But, given the following:

--A crazy, near-suicidal despot has declared he will nuke the US.
--His country has demonstrated nuclear weapons.
--Said country has demonstrated rocket technology that makes reaching the US at least plausible, if unlikely.
--We have already sunk the money into developing and testing a long range intercepter....

Then I think it's reasonable to beef up those defenses just a bit to be on the safe side. If they decide to go for it and launch 3-4 missiles towards the west coast I don't want to be sitting around saying "you know, our intelligence says they don't have a nuclear warhead that will fit on that sucker, and it's probably going to crash anyway."
2013-03-15 05:15:03 PM
2 votes:

mikaloyd: [i.imgur.com image 400x317]


I liked thermal damage, blast effects and ionizing radiation before they were cool.
2013-03-15 04:59:25 PM
2 votes:
I like how all the liberals have finally STFU about missile defense. It's a good thing we ignored your assholes and funded it anyway eh?
2013-03-15 03:53:37 PM
2 votes:
I'm not particularly worried that Best Korea is going to actually do something that stupid -- they know they'd get annihilated from all fronts (including China) if they actually launched something.

However, the US is probably smart not to get caught with its pants down in terms of defense. Give Best Korea the idea that launching something would be completely stupid AND do no actual damage.
2013-03-16 04:04:52 AM
1 votes:

JeffDenver: neongoats: Yeah, it's worked so well for us too, that nation building. Look at the bastions of freedom and democracy we have created.

I agree. Modern Iraq is far preferable to what Saddam's Iraq was.


Not according to the actual people who actually live there.

As opposed to neocon chickenhawks living in a fantasy land...
2013-03-15 11:15:10 PM
1 votes:
JeffDenver:
The problem with MAD is that you have to assume the other side is rational enough not to risk destroying themselves just to destroy you.

That's why this is so convenient. These ballistic defense things are really bad for international relations, especially with Russia.


RUSSIA: Hey USA, I notice you built some more ballistic defense stuff.
USA: Yeah?
RUSSIA: Well... you're not supposed to do that, remember? Treaties and stuff?
USA: Oh, this isn't for you. This is for North Korea.
RUSSIA: ...
2013-03-15 09:20:51 PM
1 votes:
The real danger is North Korea trading nuclear material on the black market. You don't need a missle to glass a major city.

Watch Countdown To Zero to see how easy it would be for terrorists to build a nuclear device and smuggle it into a major city. Scary stuff.
2013-03-15 08:43:37 PM
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: JeffDenver: Yes, no liberal has ever opposed national missile defense. I totally made that up just now. You caught me.

I really don't care if they have or not, the point is irrelevant. I'm sure some strawman conservatives and strawman liberals have opposed everything under the sun at some point. The 105th Congress which voted to fund the Missile Defense system in 1999 was 45% Democrat and 55% Republican, and delivered a vote of 97-3.

A program which, even today, has not produced an effective and mass-deployable weapons system, despite costing over 30 Billion Dollars, and projected to greatly exceed it's budget before all is said and done.


It's a good thing "liberal" and Democrat are not synonymous and he said "liberal".

The problem now is that the internet won't let arguments disappear. When NMD was scrapped when Obama took office, self-described liberals cheered.

Fark thread

Another Fark thread

One dealing with NK and missiles
2013-03-15 08:29:27 PM
1 votes:

doglover: CygnusDarius: Which begs the questions, what the fark does China gain by having North Korea as their biatch?

Options.


Options for what?.
2013-03-15 07:32:56 PM
1 votes:

neongoats: CygnusDarius: What if the satellite they threw up in space has ICBMs?.

Lol. Holy shiat, that would be a big satellite. Did they launch this enormous monster on a nuclear powered rocket that shiats a-bombs for propulsion. Because that's what you would need to do to launch something that big.


Well, I was thinking of the movie Space Cowboys, but then again, it's a movie. So yeah, America is probably safe from Best Korea.

South Korea and Japan, however.
2013-03-15 07:26:50 PM
1 votes:
What if the satellite they threw up in space has ICBMs?.
2013-03-15 07:18:03 PM
1 votes:

JeffDenver: way south: Preemption, missile defense, WMD threats... Sure is sounding 2003-ish in here.
/too bad we couldn't have been consistent in our foreign policy when it mattered.
/could've bombed this regime back when it started farking around with nukes.

You almost sound like you are suggesting nation building. I sure hope not. The liberal harpies in this thread will tear you limb from limb for that.


Yeah, it's worked so well for us too, that nation building. Look at the bastions of freedom and democracy we have created.

Oh, right, it was basically pissing money away into the desert and free giveaways to GOP run companies.
2013-03-15 07:15:36 PM
1 votes:

dennysgod: [media.ft.com image 418x452]

Well I guess it's technically possible they could hit Alaska but so far their rockets act like torpedoes.


I read through my homeowner's insurance policy a while back.  Interestingly, there is a clause in there that states my house is not covered if it is damaged/destroyed by a nuclear event, whether accidental or intentional.

While I am not concerned at all by Best Korea's sabre rattling at the moment, I am glad that some of the missile defense we do have (albeit with questionable effectiveness) is already installed here in Alaska.
2013-03-15 07:00:37 PM
1 votes:

God-is-a-Taco: I just remember that countries get mad when others work against MAD.


The problem with MAD is that you have to assume the other side is rational enough not to risk destroying themselves just to destroy you. I don't have the same faith in North Korea and Iran's rationality that a lot of people on here seem to have.

If the other guy thinks he can get away with it, or thinks he will be rewarded in the afterlife for killing you, MAD suddenly doesn't work very well.
2013-03-15 06:59:16 PM
1 votes:

MorteDiem: JeffDenver: I like how all the liberals have finally STFU about missile defense. It's a good thing we ignored your assholes and funded it anyway eh?

You conservatives really need to make up your minds. Are you gonna biatch about govt. spending or applaud it?


Military spending is allowed in the Constitution.  Most other things the upon which the government spends money are not.  THAT is the problem most teabaggers have.

At least get straight why you hate conservatives.  Hating people for the wrong reasons makes you bigoted AND stupid.
2013-03-15 06:56:08 PM
1 votes:

God-is-a-Taco: ACunningPlan:
That's really interesting.  I've never thought of a nuke being used for that sort of a hit; always just figured on the terrestrial mushroom death-cloud thing.  Would there also be radioactive fall-out to create mayhem too?  Not taking the piss - btw - I'm a technological idiot:)

Yes. It's bad news.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Bravo


Castle bravo wouldn't apply, though - all of the NK nukes are in the kiloton arrange.  We do have to worry about EMP, but only at the level of our earliest high-altitude testing. Downside: that was a time of transisters, which are a lot more resilient in terms of mitigating EMP damage
2013-03-15 06:50:58 PM
1 votes:

God-is-a-Taco: ACunningPlan:
That's really interesting.  I've never thought of a nuke being used for that sort of a hit; always just figured on the terrestrial mushroom death-cloud thing.  Would there also be radioactive fall-out to create mayhem too?  Not taking the piss - btw - I'm a technological idiot:)

Yes. It's bad news.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Bravo


I like the accompanying photo too.  In the lower left corner there is a DANGER: No Smoking sign.  Like what's the worst that could happen?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Castle_Bravo_Shrimp_Device_002.jpg
2013-03-15 06:46:06 PM
1 votes:
I think it's called erring on the side of caution, and I, for one, am all for it.

even if NK poses no threat now, maybe they will in 5-10 years, so definitely doesn't hurt to start beefing up our defenses just in case
2013-03-15 06:31:45 PM
1 votes:
NK is a convenient cover for another layer of defense against Russia and China
2013-03-15 06:28:56 PM
1 votes:

Hrist: ACunningPlan: Oznog: kmmontandon: I'm not even remotely sold on the notion that North Korea has an ICBM deployable warhead.

Three possibly fizzled underground tests aren't real convincing.

So I'm guessing this is more for public consumption than anything practical.

There MAY be a concern that NK wants to try a nuclear detonation in space to achieve continent-wide EMP devastation.  There was science back in the late 80's which showed that it would have a terrifying destructive range on modern infrastructure and tech.  Literally continent-wide.  It could take far longer to get the overall economy running again than we even have money for.

I don't know if that sort of threat assessment is valid.  It's rather "fantastic" energy even for a nuke.  But it could be that NK or Iran THINKS it'll work to that effect.  It may just destroy electronics across a single state or something, which would include business computers, hospitals, vehicles, plant management computers & hardware, etc, and cost trillions in replacement equipment and lost productivity.

That's really interesting.  I've never thought of a nuke being used for that sort of a hit; always just figured on the terrestrial mushroom death-cloud thing.  Would there also be radioactive fall-out to create mayhem too?  Not taking the piss - btw - I'm a technological idiot:)

In theory, nuclear weapons could be air detonated pretty high up to cause widespread EMP.  However, it would have to be VERY high up to cripple the entire US, AND be very powerful.  If that happened, fallout would be the least of your worries.  You should more of try to figure out how to keep the food in your fridge from going bad, and where your next shipment is coming from.  That's assuming EMP is as deadly to electronics as theorized...it might turn out to be so attenuated that only a few types of device are affected enough to kill them.


It doesn't matter, the kind of pants-shiatting about EMP and fallout mostly comes from people afraid to microwave food lest it be tainted by radiation.
2013-03-15 06:26:02 PM
1 votes:

ACunningPlan: Oznog: kmmontandon: I'm not even remotely sold on the notion that North Korea has an ICBM deployable warhead.

Three possibly fizzled underground tests aren't real convincing.

So I'm guessing this is more for public consumption than anything practical.

There MAY be a concern that NK wants to try a nuclear detonation in space to achieve continent-wide EMP devastation.  There was science back in the late 80's which showed that it would have a terrifying destructive range on modern infrastructure and tech.  Literally continent-wide.  It could take far longer to get the overall economy running again than we even have money for.

I don't know if that sort of threat assessment is valid.  It's rather "fantastic" energy even for a nuke.  But it could be that NK or Iran THINKS it'll work to that effect.  It may just destroy electronics across a single state or something, which would include business computers, hospitals, vehicles, plant management computers & hardware, etc, and cost trillions in replacement equipment and lost productivity.

That's really interesting.  I've never thought of a nuke being used for that sort of a hit; always just figured on the terrestrial mushroom death-cloud thing.  Would there also be radioactive fall-out to create mayhem too?  Not taking the piss - btw - I'm a technological idiot:)


In theory, nuclear weapons could be air detonated pretty high up to cause widespread EMP.  However, it would have to be VERY high up to cripple the entire US, AND be very powerful.  If that happened, fallout would be the least of your worries.  You should more of try to figure out how to keep the food in your fridge from going bad, and where your next shipment is coming from.  That's assuming EMP is as deadly to electronics as theorized...it might turn out to be so attenuated that only a few types of device are affected enough to kill them.
2013-03-15 06:20:26 PM
1 votes:

To The Escape Zeppelin!: Why do they need a missile? Just put it on a freighter and sail the damn thing right into San Francisco. Sure you might not get the best position from the bay but it's a nuclear weapon, close counts.


Fark you for continuing to spread this stupid meme. The only thing stupider than thinking they can just load it on a boat and sail it into San Francisco is thinking they can hide it up their asshole and blow it up during a white house tour.
2013-03-15 06:11:42 PM
1 votes:

JeffDenver: I like how all the liberals have finally STFU about missile defense. It's a good thing we ignored your assholes and funded it anyway eh?


You conservatives really need to make up your minds. Are you gonna biatch about govt. spending or applaud it? Complain about govt. stockpiling ammo or stockpile it yourself?
Why not just admit the fact that you are just filled with hate and fear, take a Valium and enjoy this short life we all have?
You listening to Rush and emulating Chicken Little ain't gonna make a damn bit of dIfference.
2013-03-15 05:52:00 PM
1 votes:
vernonFL: LOL, yeah, this guy is not going hungry

Makes me nostalgic for South Korea. Above all, I pine for the street peddler foods. Oh, God, the fried corn was to die for. Almost literally, since the health inspectors obviously didn't pay much mind to them.
2013-03-15 05:42:56 PM
1 votes:
The only rocket they got with any real range is a liquid fueled giant based on 1960's tech. It takes like two weeks to setup using a prepared launch pad, and that is so obvious to overhead photorecon, the NK military might as well phone it's location to the US in advance.

What the US is afraid of, and rightly so, is some kind of "slap in the face" ship based or over water tactical missile. Like a Chinese Flying Dragon. I can see NK firing one or more of those just to be a pain in the ass.
2013-03-15 05:34:55 PM
1 votes:
The military which says the North Koreans do not have the ability for ICBM's - now are turning that around - who says russia or china didn't sell them the capabilities for a launch vehicle?

Lets look at the countries who are non-NPT countries (who give nuke secrets away):

India
Pakistan
North Korea

So who wants to guess which country gave little Kim his boom boom toys?
2013-03-15 05:28:24 PM
1 votes:
Realizing of course that most of that is staging for show, since a good portion of our missile shield defenses are uber-classified. If anyone actually believes they 100% stopped development in the late 90s, they are kidding themselves about the nature of military research.
2013-03-15 05:27:41 PM
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: Ah. I see you ignored the fact that you're blatantly lying


Yes, no liberal has ever opposed national missile defense. I totally made that up just now. You caught me.
2013-03-15 05:26:55 PM
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: But yes. Somehow North Korea poses a massive threat to the United States, and that threat can only be countered by wasteful, pork barrel programs.


But the United States NEEDS an enemy.  If we don't have an enemy, we need to invent one.  And North Korea is an ideal candidate.  Americans don't know squat about NK, so the defense industry can fill the void nicely.  They can make up almost anything and a certain number of Americans will nod their bobbleheads in assent.
2013-03-15 05:26:01 PM
1 votes:

JeffDenver: You could have just said "OMG just relax, they probably won't do anything, they're too stupid to make missiles LOL".

It would have saved you a lot of typing.


Ah. I see you ignored the fact that you're blatantly lying, and ignored the fact that a wasteful program accomplished what had already been accomplished in 1985 with the deployment of the Patriot and AEGIS systems.

But yes. Keep FARKing that chicken. Boy, will you have us wrong when those 900km Rodong Missiles start splashing down in the middle of the pacific!

upload.wikimedia.org
2013-03-15 05:23:39 PM
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: Your fear mongering and ability to place words in my mouth has convinced me that a country barely able to feed it's starving, mostly militarized pop...blah blah blah blah


You could have just said "OMG just relax, they probably won't do anything, they're too stupid to make missiles LOL".

It would have saved you a lot of typing.
2013-03-15 05:20:45 PM
1 votes:

JeffDenver: And if they don't have it right this minute, that must mean it is impossible they can ever get it in the future. Developing nukes must have been the exception to the rule. Your brilliant logic has convinced me.


heahea.org

Your fear mongering and ability to place words in my mouth has convinced me that a country barely able to feed it's starving, mostly militarized population, and who have only managed to detonate - with some marked question if it was an actual nuclear device or not - something that the US did 20 years before it had a viable, accurate delivery mechanism for intercontinental ballistic missile warfare, and without the same technological research abilities that the Soviets or the United States had at the time is a threat to the United States.

Despite the fact that they have no ability to deliver such a weapon, which is not even in a form that can be used militarily, to the shores of the United States, or to the shores of Japan.

And despite the fact what missile systems they DO have are so inaccurate that they pose more of a danger to the North Koreans than ANYONE around them, and can't even reach Japan with conventional or even chemical weapons.

And, even ignoring ALL THAT, are capable of being intercepted with a 99.5% accuracy rate using Theater ABM systems that have been in service since 1985, and that are THEMSELVES derivatives of 1960s technology.

But yes. Somehow North Korea poses a massive threat to the United States, and that threat can only be countered by wasteful, pork barrel programs.
2013-03-15 05:20:32 PM
1 votes:

ArtosRC: What North Korean could ever afford bulgogi, save for the military and government elite? Even then, that's a stretch.


LOL, yeah, this guy is not going hungry

encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com
2013-03-15 05:20:03 PM
1 votes:
Hmm.  I am OK with this.
$1B seems pretty cheap for all that, considering the damage one nuke would do to, say, Los Angeles - even Fresno would have a property loss of more than $1B.

/and no one goes to Fresno any more.
m00
2013-03-15 05:18:22 PM
1 votes:
I hope I bookmarked the fark thread where I called that this blatant scare-mongering will happen, to further justify the military industrial complex in the absence of any real military threats.
2013-03-15 05:17:12 PM
1 votes:

TheShavingofOccam123: The Chinese would love to find someone else to do their first striking for them.

/on second thought, who would buy their melamine-laced dog food and milk?


Suppose China gave them a long range weapon, they send it our way, China. Says OMG, turns Best Korea into glass. China gets info on our defenses.

Tin foil hat off.....
2013-03-15 05:16:54 PM
1 votes:

Donnchadha: I'm not particularly worried that Best Korea is going to actually do something that stupid -- they know they'd get annihilated from all fronts (including China) if they actually launched something.

However, the US is probably smart not to get caught with its pants down in terms of defense. Give Best Korea the idea that launching something would be completely stupid AND do no actual damage.


Kim Jong IL knew that. We don't know about Kim Jong UN.
2013-03-15 05:15:53 PM
1 votes:

vernonFL: We should beef up against North Korea. Their bulgogi is delicious.


[www.trifood.com image 271x223]


Not so much when it's made of poop-picked corn kernels and dust.
2013-03-15 05:13:47 PM
1 votes:
Lining the coast with beef is not going to help.
2013-03-15 05:12:48 PM
1 votes:
We should beef up against North Korea. Their bulgogi is delicious.


www.trifood.com
2013-03-15 05:10:35 PM
1 votes:
Zealous overreaction to something that's completely Kim Jong Un-related.
2013-03-15 05:09:05 PM
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: Ignoring the fact that North Korea doesn't have a viable nuclear warhead, or the fact that the North doesn't have a delivery platform that can reach the United States to begin with?


And if they don't have it right this minute, that must mean it is impossible they can ever get it in the future. Developing nukes must have been the exception to the rule. Your brilliant logic has convinced me.
2013-03-15 05:07:40 PM
1 votes:

JeffDenver: I like how all the liberals have finally STFU about missile defense. It's a good thing we ignored your assholes and funded it anyway eh?


Really? That's the Friday afternoon troll? Ugh....
2013-03-15 05:04:18 PM
1 votes:

JeffDenver: I like how all the liberals have finally STFU about missile defense. It's a good thing we ignored your assholes and funded it anyway eh?


Ignoring the fact that North Korea doesn't have a viable nuclear warhead, or the fact that the North doesn't have a delivery platform that can reach the United States to begin with?
2013-03-15 05:02:58 PM
1 votes:
Ahh, North Korea, dominating Fark headlines is your real power.
2013-03-15 05:02:30 PM
1 votes:
Sounds like some senators figured out a way to get some pork under the guise of protecting the west coast from North Korea.
2013-03-15 04:57:52 PM
1 votes:
I'd rather the military re-think their position than save face and do nothing.
2013-03-15 04:56:19 PM
1 votes:

make me some tea: While I don't disagree that it's more for show than anything else, their underground tests did not fizzle.


No, they just proved North Korea has reached 1938, and can build a crude Teller-Ullam Triggered Device.

The NK test reached a yield of 5-7kT. For comparison, Trinity shot was 20kT.

GAT_00: I think there is zero chance they have a deployable warhead and I question whether they have a missile that could reach us even without a warhead.

That being said, it isn't completely impossible that they do.


The only active missile platforms in use right now by North Korea that could possibly deliver a nuclear payload are based on the SCUD B and D system, which has a range of ~300KM or so. The only thing Japan MIGHT have to worry about is the MRBM that they built off of the SCUD-B platform, the Rodong-1, which has a range of 900KM, but the accuracy (worse than that of the infamously inaccurate SCUD) and ability of the Rodong-1 is quesitonable in and of itsself.

The taepodong-1 and taepodong-2 ICBM platforms have failed, notoriously and hilariously, every time they have been launched in a military test.
 
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