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(The Big Story)   U.S. last week: "We're not concerned about a nuclear threat from North Korea." U.S. this week: "Uhh, let's add some interceptors along the west coast. You know, just in case"   (bigstory.ap.org) divider line 199
    More: Scary, North Koreans, interceptors, U.S., North Korean ICBM, Vandenberg Air Force Base, Air Force bases, missile defense, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel  
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6927 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Mar 2013 at 4:56 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-15 06:13:10 PM
tonguedepressor:You didn't ignore our assholes in all those mens rooms though didja?

I couldn't. Your dad had such a nice one. He has a talented mouth too. Say hi to him for me.
 
2013-03-15 06:15:36 PM

MorteDiem: You conservatives really need to make up your minds. Are you gonna biatch about govt. spending or applaud it? Complain about govt. stockpiling ammo or stockpile it yourself?Why not just admit the fact that you are just filled with hate and fear, take a Valium and enjoy this short life we all have?


I am filled with hate and fear of oppressive non-democracies. Blowing them up feels better than taking drugs.

And military spending is the one type of spending I don't have a problem with. There is no issue more important that Defense.
 
2013-03-15 06:16:54 PM

JeffDenver: I am filled with hate and fear of oppressive non-democracies. Blowing them up feels better than taking drugs.

And military spending is the one type of spending I don't have a problem with. There is no issue more important that Defense.


cdn.ebaumsworld.com 

Let's play the feud! Number one answer on the board, among 100 people surveyed, Troll or Complete Idiot!
 
2013-03-15 06:19:41 PM

Oznog: kmmontandon: I'm not even remotely sold on the notion that North Korea has an ICBM deployable warhead.

Three possibly fizzled underground tests aren't real convincing.

So I'm guessing this is more for public consumption than anything practical.

There MAY be a concern that NK wants to try a nuclear detonation in space to achieve continent-wide EMP devastation.  There was science back in the late 80's which showed that it would have a terrifying destructive range on modern infrastructure and tech.  Literally continent-wide.  It could take far longer to get the overall economy running again than we even have money for.

I don't know if that sort of threat assessment is valid.  It's rather "fantastic" energy even for a nuke.  But it could be that NK or Iran THINKS it'll work to that effect.  It may just destroy electronics across a single state or something, which would include business computers, hospitals, vehicles, plant management computers & hardware, etc, and cost trillions in replacement equipment and lost productivity.


That's really interesting.  I've never thought of a nuke being used for that sort of a hit; always just figured on the terrestrial mushroom death-cloud thing.  Would there also be radioactive fall-out to create mayhem too?  Not taking the piss - btw - I'm a technological idiot:)
 
2013-03-15 06:20:26 PM

To The Escape Zeppelin!: Why do they need a missile? Just put it on a freighter and sail the damn thing right into San Francisco. Sure you might not get the best position from the bay but it's a nuclear weapon, close counts.


Fark you for continuing to spread this stupid meme. The only thing stupider than thinking they can just load it on a boat and sail it into San Francisco is thinking they can hide it up their asshole and blow it up during a white house tour.
 
2013-03-15 06:20:34 PM

hardinparamedic: Evil High Priest: You just lost your Seoul.

Except for the fact that most of the Artillery on the DMZ can't even reach Seoul, yeah.


True...but some can.
 
2013-03-15 06:20:37 PM
Good idea; blowin' money.

/Now blow me.
//It'll only cost you 500 million.
 
2013-03-15 06:20:42 PM
It's also worth noting that these missiles are not just another Patriot battery being parked at a base. It will take years to get these online. Is it that far-fetched that the NK's could have a missile capable of reaching California or Alaska reliably in 3-4 years?

I get the whole argument that this is just another made up enemy of the US to feed the defense contractors. I know they're still a backwards nation far from "mastering" rocket technology or nuke minaturization. But they're not exactly helping their own cause here by routinely threatening to rain destruction upon the US. I don't think they're an existential threat to the US, but the government is absolutely a threat and they are, to put it simply, a clear and defined enemy of the USA. I have NO problem in the grand scheme of defense spending to put a billion dollars on a few extra interceptors to defend against these guys. If that means we can ignore their sabre-rattling a little easier than it's money well spent.
 
2013-03-15 06:26:02 PM

ACunningPlan: Oznog: kmmontandon: I'm not even remotely sold on the notion that North Korea has an ICBM deployable warhead.

Three possibly fizzled underground tests aren't real convincing.

So I'm guessing this is more for public consumption than anything practical.

There MAY be a concern that NK wants to try a nuclear detonation in space to achieve continent-wide EMP devastation.  There was science back in the late 80's which showed that it would have a terrifying destructive range on modern infrastructure and tech.  Literally continent-wide.  It could take far longer to get the overall economy running again than we even have money for.

I don't know if that sort of threat assessment is valid.  It's rather "fantastic" energy even for a nuke.  But it could be that NK or Iran THINKS it'll work to that effect.  It may just destroy electronics across a single state or something, which would include business computers, hospitals, vehicles, plant management computers & hardware, etc, and cost trillions in replacement equipment and lost productivity.

That's really interesting.  I've never thought of a nuke being used for that sort of a hit; always just figured on the terrestrial mushroom death-cloud thing.  Would there also be radioactive fall-out to create mayhem too?  Not taking the piss - btw - I'm a technological idiot:)


In theory, nuclear weapons could be air detonated pretty high up to cause widespread EMP.  However, it would have to be VERY high up to cripple the entire US, AND be very powerful.  If that happened, fallout would be the least of your worries.  You should more of try to figure out how to keep the food in your fridge from going bad, and where your next shipment is coming from.  That's assuming EMP is as deadly to electronics as theorized...it might turn out to be so attenuated that only a few types of device are affected enough to kill them.
 
2013-03-15 06:28:56 PM

Hrist: ACunningPlan: Oznog: kmmontandon: I'm not even remotely sold on the notion that North Korea has an ICBM deployable warhead.

Three possibly fizzled underground tests aren't real convincing.

So I'm guessing this is more for public consumption than anything practical.

There MAY be a concern that NK wants to try a nuclear detonation in space to achieve continent-wide EMP devastation.  There was science back in the late 80's which showed that it would have a terrifying destructive range on modern infrastructure and tech.  Literally continent-wide.  It could take far longer to get the overall economy running again than we even have money for.

I don't know if that sort of threat assessment is valid.  It's rather "fantastic" energy even for a nuke.  But it could be that NK or Iran THINKS it'll work to that effect.  It may just destroy electronics across a single state or something, which would include business computers, hospitals, vehicles, plant management computers & hardware, etc, and cost trillions in replacement equipment and lost productivity.

That's really interesting.  I've never thought of a nuke being used for that sort of a hit; always just figured on the terrestrial mushroom death-cloud thing.  Would there also be radioactive fall-out to create mayhem too?  Not taking the piss - btw - I'm a technological idiot:)

In theory, nuclear weapons could be air detonated pretty high up to cause widespread EMP.  However, it would have to be VERY high up to cripple the entire US, AND be very powerful.  If that happened, fallout would be the least of your worries.  You should more of try to figure out how to keep the food in your fridge from going bad, and where your next shipment is coming from.  That's assuming EMP is as deadly to electronics as theorized...it might turn out to be so attenuated that only a few types of device are affected enough to kill them.


It doesn't matter, the kind of pants-shiatting about EMP and fallout mostly comes from people afraid to microwave food lest it be tainted by radiation.
 
2013-03-15 06:29:05 PM

que.guero: I'm not particularly worried that Best Korea is going to actually do something that stupid -- they know they'd get annihilated from all fronts (including China) if they actually launched something.

Not so fast there...

Any retaliatory strike on North Korea by the US would be, in effect, a strike on China. It doesn't take a political strategist to see how that would get out of control PDQ.


Bullsh*t.

If NorK nuked NYork, China'd just nyuk at NorK when they yelled "Onoes!"

We'd probably not use nukes in retaliation, partly because of China, partly because S Korea is right farking there, but I doubt China would defend that kind of stupidity. Now if the NorKs brought us into a conflict through other means besides attacking US with ballistic missiles--that's a whole different egg.
 
2013-03-15 06:29:23 PM

JeffDenver: tonguedepressor:You didn't ignore our assholes in all those mens rooms though didja?

I couldn't. Your dad had such a nice one. He has a talented mouth too. Say hi to him for me.


Doesn't quite carry the weight of "your Mom" quips.

Of course not many can carry the weight of your mom.
 
2013-03-15 06:31:45 PM
NK is a convenient cover for another layer of defense against Russia and China
 
2013-03-15 06:34:33 PM

God-is-a-Taco: NK is a convenient cover for another layer of defense against Russia and China


If so, that can only be a good thing.
 
2013-03-15 06:40:50 PM
Wow, so only $1 billion dollars for 14 missiles?  "Anti-missile batteries" that have never once been proven to work in actual reality?

They've only ever been proven to work in very very few tests, and every single one of those tests was gamed (they already knew the trajectory of the missile they were shooting down beforehand).

Betcha North Korea is tickled pink to see the US, mired in a seemingly unending recession, blowing a billion bucks on pie-in-the-sky defense systems.  I know I find it amusing.

/North Korea would never launch a missile at the USA because it would mean their immediate and utter destruction like 30 minutes later.
//crazy the rulers of North Korea might be, but not suicidal
 
2013-03-15 06:44:06 PM
ACunningPlan:
That's really interesting.  I've never thought of a nuke being used for that sort of a hit; always just figured on the terrestrial mushroom death-cloud thing.  Would there also be radioactive fall-out to create mayhem too?  Not taking the piss - btw - I'm a technological idiot:)

Yes. It's bad news.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Bravo
 
2013-03-15 06:46:06 PM
I think it's called erring on the side of caution, and I, for one, am all for it.

even if NK poses no threat now, maybe they will in 5-10 years, so definitely doesn't hurt to start beefing up our defenses just in case
 
2013-03-15 06:47:23 PM

jakomo002: /North Korea would never launch a missile at the USA because it would mean their immediate and utter destruction like 30 minutes later.


And as we all know, insane dictators are known for their rational and well thought out decisions.
 
2013-03-15 06:49:01 PM

JeffDenver: God-is-a-Taco: NK is a convenient cover for another layer of defense against Russia and China

If so, that can only be a good thing.


I don't follow military stuff that well, so I can't say for sure.
I just remember that countries get mad when others work against MAD.
Heh.  Mad about MAD. I'm pretty good.
 
2013-03-15 06:50:58 PM

God-is-a-Taco: ACunningPlan:
That's really interesting.  I've never thought of a nuke being used for that sort of a hit; always just figured on the terrestrial mushroom death-cloud thing.  Would there also be radioactive fall-out to create mayhem too?  Not taking the piss - btw - I'm a technological idiot:)

Yes. It's bad news.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Bravo


I like the accompanying photo too.  In the lower left corner there is a DANGER: No Smoking sign.  Like what's the worst that could happen?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Castle_Bravo_Shrimp_Device_002.jpg
 
2013-03-15 06:52:32 PM
The biggest concern the White House has about North Korea is on deciding which course of action will make the Republicans look worse.
 
2013-03-15 06:56:08 PM

God-is-a-Taco: ACunningPlan:
That's really interesting.  I've never thought of a nuke being used for that sort of a hit; always just figured on the terrestrial mushroom death-cloud thing.  Would there also be radioactive fall-out to create mayhem too?  Not taking the piss - btw - I'm a technological idiot:)

Yes. It's bad news.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Bravo


Castle bravo wouldn't apply, though - all of the NK nukes are in the kiloton arrange.  We do have to worry about EMP, but only at the level of our earliest high-altitude testing. Downside: that was a time of transisters, which are a lot more resilient in terms of mitigating EMP damage
 
2013-03-15 06:57:23 PM

ACunningPlan: Oznog: kmmontandon: I'm not even remotely sold on the notion that North Korea has an ICBM deployable warhead.

Three possibly fizzled underground tests aren't real convincing.

So I'm guessing this is more for public consumption than anything practical.

There MAY be a concern that NK wants to try a nuclear detonation in space to achieve continent-wide EMP devastation.  There was science back in the late 80's which showed that it would have a terrifying destructive range on modern infrastructure and tech.  Literally continent-wide.  It could take far longer to get the overall economy running again than we even have money for.

I don't know if that sort of threat assessment is valid.  It's rather "fantastic" energy even for a nuke.  But it could be that NK or Iran THINKS it'll work to that effect.  It may just destroy electronics across a single state or something, which would include business computers, hospitals, vehicles, plant management computers & hardware, etc, and cost trillions in replacement equipment and lost productivity.

That's really interesting.  I've never thought of a nuke being used for that sort of a hit; always just figured on the terrestrial mushroom death-cloud thing.  Would there also be radioactive fall-out to create mayhem too?  Not taking the piss - btw - I'm a technological idiot:)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

For a continent-wide effect, it'd have to be 400km, not just "high".  But it can be fairly simple, a simple pure-fission device is more effective than the larger thermonuclear bombs.

No direction fatalities or injuries or even terrestrial fallout.  It creates an artificial radiation belt and can damage satellites.

The conceivable effects such a thing would have on the economy and order could be staggering.  A business without its servers can't do much, and replacement parts in-stock would be similarly affected (the Matrix thing about it being ok if they're turned off is fiction).  Mfg of NEW replacement parts would be slow in coming, because suddenly there's 100x their mfg volume, but mfg facilities- or even mfg of one necessary part- may be similarly affected.  And  on top of that nobody's doing much business and has no income, it's unclear if we can even mfg and transport food and fuel or will even have electricity.  Easy to list plenty of graphic problems where everything breaks down into riots, the economy tanks, timely reconstruction proves beyond our capacity to afford it and USA basically becomes an undeveloped nation for many decades.
 
2013-03-15 06:57:45 PM

JeffDenver: jakomo002: /North Korea would never launch a missile at the USA because it would mean their immediate and utter destruction like 30 minutes later.

And as we all know, insane dictators are known for their rational and well thought out decisions.


I can only think of 8 or ten insane dictators who have committed suicide by attacking the US. What's your list?
 
2013-03-15 06:59:16 PM

MorteDiem: JeffDenver: I like how all the liberals have finally STFU about missile defense. It's a good thing we ignored your assholes and funded it anyway eh?

You conservatives really need to make up your minds. Are you gonna biatch about govt. spending or applaud it?


Military spending is allowed in the Constitution.  Most other things the upon which the government spends money are not.  THAT is the problem most teabaggers have.

At least get straight why you hate conservatives.  Hating people for the wrong reasons makes you bigoted AND stupid.
 
2013-03-15 07:00:12 PM

tinyarena: Like what's the worst that could happen?


You do know how welding works, right?

The last thing you need is a fireball full of conventional explosives, lithium salts, and plutonium or uranium.
 
2013-03-15 07:00:37 PM

God-is-a-Taco: I just remember that countries get mad when others work against MAD.


The problem with MAD is that you have to assume the other side is rational enough not to risk destroying themselves just to destroy you. I don't have the same faith in North Korea and Iran's rationality that a lot of people on here seem to have.

If the other guy thinks he can get away with it, or thinks he will be rewarded in the afterlife for killing you, MAD suddenly doesn't work very well.
 
2013-03-15 07:02:11 PM

Evil High Priest: I can only think of 8 or ten insane dictators who have committed suicide by attacking the US. What's your list?


8 or 10 isn't enough?
 
2013-03-15 07:04:02 PM

Donnchadha: I'm not particularly worried that Best Korea is going to actually do something that stupid -- they know they'd get annihilated from all fronts (including China) if they actually launched something.

However, the US is probably smart not to get caught with its pants down in terms of defense. Give Best Korea the idea that launching something would be completely stupid AND do no actual damage.


Mostly this. Best Korea could probably not do any nuclear damage (except to themselves). However, it would be better not to be unprepared when they try, and ALSO send half a million starving fanatical soldiers swarming across or under the DMZ with instructions to kill and eat everything they find. It would also be better to reassure South Korea and Japan that if Kim Jong-Un has delusions of grandeur that the US is prepared ahead of time so they (especially So. Korea, which has more to lose in the short term) don't have to panic when the saber rattles get especially loud.

Nuclear threat, no. Military threat, yes, definitely. No reason not to preempt that if we can.
 
2013-03-15 07:10:36 PM
Preemption, missile defense, WMD threats... Sure is sounding 2003-ish in here.

/too bad we couldn't have been consistent in our foreign policy when it mattered.
/could've bombed this regime back when it started farking around with nukes.
 
2013-03-15 07:10:54 PM
There is no bullchit like military grade bullchit.
I wonder what we pay NK for the bullchit threats that we so nicely advertise in the media to scaremonger force feed the military budget.
 
2013-03-15 07:13:09 PM

way south: Preemption, missile defense, WMD threats... Sure is sounding 2003-ish in here.
/too bad we couldn't have been consistent in our foreign policy when it mattered.
/could've bombed this regime back when it started farking around with nukes.


You almost sound like you are suggesting nation building. I sure hope not. The liberal harpies in this thread will tear you limb from limb for that.
 
2013-03-15 07:14:14 PM
Did the president vote for or against missile defense when he was a senator?
 
2013-03-15 07:15:36 PM

dennysgod: [media.ft.com image 418x452]

Well I guess it's technically possible they could hit Alaska but so far their rockets act like torpedoes.


I read through my homeowner's insurance policy a while back.  Interestingly, there is a clause in there that states my house is not covered if it is damaged/destroyed by a nuclear event, whether accidental or intentional.

While I am not concerned at all by Best Korea's sabre rattling at the moment, I am glad that some of the missile defense we do have (albeit with questionable effectiveness) is already installed here in Alaska.
 
2013-03-15 07:18:03 PM

JeffDenver: way south: Preemption, missile defense, WMD threats... Sure is sounding 2003-ish in here.
/too bad we couldn't have been consistent in our foreign policy when it mattered.
/could've bombed this regime back when it started farking around with nukes.

You almost sound like you are suggesting nation building. I sure hope not. The liberal harpies in this thread will tear you limb from limb for that.


Yeah, it's worked so well for us too, that nation building. Look at the bastions of freedom and democracy we have created.

Oh, right, it was basically pissing money away into the desert and free giveaways to GOP run companies.
 
2013-03-15 07:20:26 PM
25.media.tumblr.com


"Relax, it's North Korea--the nation state equivalent of the short bus."
 
2013-03-15 07:21:10 PM

TheShavingofOccam123: The Chinese would love to find someone else to do their first striking for them.

/on second thought, who would buy their melamine-laced dog food and milk?


. . .and this is why actual war with China is unlikely.

They've spent the last 20 years transitioning from Communist to Authoritarian Capitolist that is Communist in name only.
The prosperity this has brought them has helped keep society stable and calm, preventing another Tienanmen Square incident or any real threat to the rule of the Party.

They don't want anything that will upset the applecart, internally or externally.  Internally that means any threat to the rule of the Chinese Communist Party, by keeping the people reasonably happy.  Externally that means any significant change in foriegn relations that could endanger internal stability.

You can bet a war with the US, or NK going to war with the US and using nuclear weapons, is going to hit China, and hard.  They can't keep their people happy without somebody to sell their cheap crap to.
 
2013-03-15 07:22:48 PM
Hrist:, kmmontandon: neongoats, God-is-a-Taco, Somaticasual,Oznog:

Thanks ever so much:)  I hadn't a clue it was even a consideration - theoretical or otherwise.
 
2013-03-15 07:26:35 PM

JeffDenver: Evil High Priest: I can only think of 8 or ten insane dictators who have committed suicide by attacking the US. What's your list?

8 or 10 isn't enough?


I just wanted to see if you have the same ones on your list. Can you rattle off a few?
 
2013-03-15 07:26:50 PM
What if the satellite they threw up in space has ICBMs?.
 
2013-03-15 07:27:40 PM

Evil High Priest: JeffDenver: jakomo002: /North Korea would never launch a missile at the USA because it would mean their immediate and utter destruction like 30 minutes later.

And as we all know, insane dictators are known for their rational and well thought out decisions.

I can only think of 8 or ten insane dictators who have committed suicide by attacking the US. What's your list?


That's 6 or 8 more than I can think of. Who else do you know of?
 
2013-03-15 07:28:16 PM

MooseKiller: dennysgod: [media.ft.com image 418x452]

Well I guess it's technically possible they could hit Alaska but so far their rockets act like torpedoes.

I read through my homeowner's insurance policy a while back.  Interestingly, there is a clause in there that states my house is not covered if it is damaged/destroyed by a nuclear event, whether accidental or intentional.

While I am not concerned at all by Best Korea's sabre rattling at the moment, I am glad that some of the missile defense we do have (albeit with questionable effectiveness) is already installed here in Alaska.


It's powered by the combined might of Sarah Palin and Lisa Ann.

/I trust more in Lisa Ann, though
 
2013-03-15 07:30:28 PM

CygnusDarius: What if the satellite they threw up in space has ICBMs?.


Lol. Holy shiat, that would be a big satellite. Did they launch this enormous monster on a nuclear powered rocket that shiats a-bombs for propulsion. Because that's what you would need to do to launch something that big.
 
2013-03-15 07:32:56 PM

neongoats: CygnusDarius: What if the satellite they threw up in space has ICBMs?.

Lol. Holy shiat, that would be a big satellite. Did they launch this enormous monster on a nuclear powered rocket that shiats a-bombs for propulsion. Because that's what you would need to do to launch something that big.


Well, I was thinking of the movie Space Cowboys, but then again, it's a movie. So yeah, America is probably safe from Best Korea.

South Korea and Japan, however.
 
2013-03-15 07:43:40 PM

JeffDenver: way south: Preemption, missile defense, WMD threats... Sure is sounding 2003-ish in here.
/too bad we couldn't have been consistent in our foreign policy when it mattered.
/could've bombed this regime back when it started farking around with nukes.

You almost sound like you are suggesting nation building. I sure hope not. The liberal harpies in this thread will tear you limb from limb for that.




I was more suggesting nation de-building, in a timely limited fashion of course.

/a stitch in time...
 
2013-03-15 07:45:02 PM
A big show for the bigwigs in North Korea.

It does make you wonder what would have happened if the assassination had been successful.
 
2013-03-15 07:47:04 PM

Oznog: For a continent-wide effect, it'd have to be 400km, not just "high".


So about 100km lower than the the satellite they put up last year, which thanks to its polar orbit has been making regular passes over every part of the planet since then. I don't think the height's going to be a problem, and you don't need pin-point accuracy for a continent-wide EMP burst.
 
2013-03-15 07:48:25 PM

JeffDenver: You almost sound like you are suggesting nation building. I sure hope not. The liberal harpies in this thread will tear you limb from limb for that.


The North Korean regime's crimes against humanity are innumerable.
I think most people would support wiping its rulers and military leaders away in one stroke if it was remotely possible. That is, if China didn't give a damn and if they didn't have thousands of outdated mortars pointed south.
 
2013-03-15 08:12:26 PM

tomcatadam: JeffDenver: You almost sound like you are suggesting nation building. I sure hope not. The liberal harpies in this thread will tear you limb from limb for that.

The North Korean regime's crimes against humanity are innumerable.
I think most people would support wiping its rulers and military leaders away in one stroke if it was remotely possible. That is, if China didn't give a damn and if they didn't have thousands of outdated mortars pointed south.


Which begs the questions, what the fark does China gain by having North Korea as their biatch? Does North Korea have any resource in abundance that only China can get?.
 
2013-03-15 08:22:46 PM

CygnusDarius: Which begs the questions, what the fark does China gain by having North Korea as their biatch?


Options.
 
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