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(WCSH 8 Portland)   Guy who set USS Miami on fire to get some time off gets 17 years time off. Plus, has to pay back $400 million in restitution, which in cigarettes is infinity   (wcsh6.com) divider line 149
    More: Amusing, USS Miami, restitution, cigarettes  
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9563 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Mar 2013 at 3:12 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-15 03:54:55 PM

mrlewish: Why does it cost $450 million to fix a sub?  While the guy deserves the pokie for a long time it sounds like Navy and taxpayer was burned twice.


The Virginias cost about $2.6 billion.  His fire apparently did significant damage to the forward torpedo room, C&C, and several other forward compartments.  Keep in mind, these subs are designed to operate for 10 years before they need a major overhaul, and those ships are carefully engineered to minimize noise transmission outside the hull.  Repairing fire and water damage is always expensive, even on a house.  Combine it with a structure that is intended for a very specific purpose, and there are only a handful of them in service.  You can't exactly run down to Best Buy and grab a Raytheon Integrated Combat System.

/Apparently the Navy seriously evaluated if the cost of scrapping the vessel was more cost-effective than repairing it.
 
2013-03-15 03:55:12 PM

factoryconnection: Car_Ramrod: I think that's how it goes with a lot of crimes...

Usually when vast amounts of money are taken, they were taken somewhere.  Usually when something big is destroyed, it is insured.  This time, nope it is just a bunch of money that we'll spend to fix MIAMI that the asshole that took it didn't even get to enjoy, much less return.

Maybe I'm doing a bad job of stating that this is just entirely frustrating from a crime and punishment POV: the costs of his crime are just so much more massive than anything he could ever do to repay it.


And yet, completely inconsequential compared to the cost of a single rape or murder.
 
2013-03-15 03:55:21 PM
His stupidity is breathtaking. He makes the guys who phone in bomb threats from their office desks seem positively Aristotelian.
 
2013-03-15 03:55:38 PM
The real question is, can he take it off his taxes?

//farking IRS and tax time
 
2013-03-15 03:58:35 PM
but, but, he did it for  love.

don't you get it?  why are you insisting on punishing him?  he didn't do anything wrong.  Nothing is wrong when it is done for LURVE
 
2013-03-15 04:02:14 PM
I don't think he can pay it off in cigarettes, not even menthols, since the trade value will be canceled out by the exchange of sexual favors.
 
2013-03-15 04:02:34 PM

UNC_Samurai: mrlewish: Why does it cost $450 million to fix a sub?  While the guy deserves the pokie for a long time it sounds like Navy and taxpayer was burned twice.

/Apparently the Navy seriously evaluated if the cost of scrapping the vessel was more cost-effective than repairing it.


Here's the main question: Would you like to reach op depth in a hull that's been fire-hardened? I'd think twice, and call my detailer.
 
2013-03-15 04:02:37 PM

Nem Wan: We gave away/lost more than that amount of cash in Iraq with no accounting. I don't see Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld being on the hook for restitution.
[static.guim.co.uk image 372x192]


Nor will Obama and his campaign money bundlers have to offer restitution for the $535 million  we lost to Solyndra or any of his other Green energy kick backs
 
2013-03-15 04:05:19 PM

UNC_Samurai: You can't exactly run down to Best Buy and grab a Raytheon Integrated Combat System.


They're never in stock.  I tried on-line ordering but the waiting list is huge, and eBay won't take my Best Buy credit card.  What a ripoff.
 
2013-03-15 04:05:51 PM

Resolute: factoryconnection: Car_Ramrod: I think that's how it goes with a lot of crimes...

Usually when vast amounts of money are taken, they were taken somewhere.  Usually when something big is destroyed, it is insured.  This time, nope it is just a bunch of money that we'll spend to fix MIAMI that the asshole that took it didn't even get to enjoy, much less return.

Maybe I'm doing a bad job of stating that this is just entirely frustrating from a crime and punishment POV: the costs of his crime are just so much more massive than anything he could ever do to repay it.

And yet, completely inconsequential compared to the cost of a single rape or murder.


Yea, that's kind of where I was going. A lot of crimes have costs that can't be measured in dollars and cents. And nothing we do as a society undoes that damage. It's frustrating, but that's how it works.
 
2013-03-15 04:06:12 PM
The only way to attack a US naval vessel without reprecusion is to be Israeli.
 
2013-03-15 04:06:52 PM

Mikeyworld: UNC_Samurai: mrlewish: Why does it cost $450 million to fix a sub?  While the guy deserves the pokie for a long time it sounds like Navy and taxpayer was burned twice.

/Apparently the Navy seriously evaluated if the cost of scrapping the vessel was more cost-effective than repairing it.

Here's the main question: Would you like to reach op depth in a hull that's been fire-hardened? I'd think twice, and call my detailer.


According to everything I've read, there was no damage to the hull or the nuclear compartment, just a bunch of internal compartments.
 
2013-03-15 04:08:10 PM

factoryconnection: mrlewish: Why does it cost $450 million to fix a sub?  While the guy deserves the pokie for a long time it sounds like Navy and taxpayer was burned twice.

They cost over a $Billion new, and VA-class subs are over $2B I think.  He burned up all the forward-compartment equipment, which is everything that isn't propulsion.  Just clearing all that destroyed material and re-making the interior frame is going to be hard enough, plus the cost of all the equipment and re-tooling for equipment that hasn't been produced in over 10 years.

kindms: Like we really need f-ing Attack subs.

Just write off the loss. Put the guy in the slammer and call it a day.

What a waste of $$

We have plenty of ICBMs etc to get the job done. We don't need to keep throwing money away on tools no one wants to use and if they ever get used won't really matter anyway.

Attack subs have the highest operational tempo of any ship in the Navy.  ICBMs have nothing to do with SSNs... and SSNs do their intended job all the time.


Like what ? following other subs that maybe a handful of other countries own ? maybe the occasional black Op ?

Like I said a complete waste of $$$. It is basically just another socialized work program for Electric Boat and the folks who call this their job.
 
2013-03-15 04:08:45 PM
a fire on a US Naval vessel, started by a dockworker, was able to damage it that much.... there's something wrong there somewhere. did the guy have a few thousand gallons of gasoline and unrestricted access to the entire sub? are nuclear submarines made out of greasy rags and newspaper? are there really no Navy guys standing around watching the ship and able to put out a fire before it can do $450,000,000 in damages?

yeah, let the guy rot in jail, but i don't think he's the only person to blame for the massive amount of damage he was able to do.
 
2013-03-15 04:09:46 PM

TheGreatGazoo: How can you do that much damage to a sub with a fire?  Isn't there a fire suppression system on board?


I'm guessing it's like the fire suppression systems you'll find on land, it's there to save lives not equipment, and can (potentially) do as much damage as a fire.
 
2013-03-15 04:09:54 PM
So, just declare bankruptcy now and long before he is out of prison, he will be debt free.
 
2013-03-15 04:10:26 PM

flynn80: The only way to attack a US naval vessel without reprecusion is to be Israeli

or the seabed.

"USS San Francisco ran aground south of Guam while traveling underwater (nearly instantaneous deacceleration from Flank [maximum] Speed to 4 knots). Machinist Mate 2nd Class Joseph Allen Ashley was in Aft Main Seawater Bay on Engineroom Upper Level Watch at the time of the grounding, and his body was thrown forward approximately 20 feet into Propulsion Lube Oil Bay. He suffered a severe blow to his forehead and never regained consciousness, dying two days later. 1 killed and 15 injured. 8 Jan. 2005."
 
2013-03-15 04:11:59 PM

UNC_Samurai: Mikeyworld: UNC_Samurai: mrlewish:

/Apparently the Navy seriously evaluated if the cost of scrapping the vessel was more cost-effective than repairing it.

Here's the main question: Would you like to reach op depth in a hull that's been fire-hardened? I'd think twice, and call my detailer.

According to everything I've read, there was no damage to the hull or the nuclear compartment, just a bunch of internal compartments.


Even so,...and I might be paranoid, Hy-80 is has very specific properties, and though interior damage was all there was, the heat surely did affect the temper of it. I'd be asking for a transfer.

/and watching the news during sea trails
 
2013-03-15 04:12:25 PM

Resolute: And yet, completely inconsequential compared to the cost of a single rape or murder.


You might want to reconsider your comparison.  Not to devalue the cost of murder and rape but to consider this:  This asshat set fire to a nuclear powered sub less than 60 miles from Boston.  While a sub is designed to protect the reactor in event of combat damage, how many of those protections are removed during overhaul to allow the work to take place.  Yes the reactor was powered down; yes it remained safe.  But did the jackass know that when he decided it was Miller Timetm?  How many firefighters lives did he endanger?  How many has he shortened?

/big picture and all that
//thinks he's make a fine dock bumper.
/// If they forget to untie the bumper before doing a pressure test I'd forgive them.
 
2013-03-15 04:13:06 PM

TheGreatGazoo: How can you do that much damage to a sub with a fire?  Isn't there a fire suppression system on board?


I would imagine they were disabled. Lots of welding happens in dry dock.
 
2013-03-15 04:13:36 PM

TheGreatGazoo: How can you do that much damage to a sub with a fire?  Isn't there a fire suppression system on board?


The submarine was in drydock undergoing a major overhaul at the end of the working day.  That contributed to the problem in the following ways:
1. There was no cooling effect from the surrounding water, as there was no water
2. The forward compartment was torn up, with missing deckplates, passageways, and the normal firefighting system out of commission.  Perhaps the emergency breathing air system was degraded as well.
3. Most of the crew was gone, greatly decreasing the amount of people to notice the fire early
4. The shipyard fire department did respond, and quickly, but by then the fire had taken root in some hull insulation and was fairly inaccessible while producing heavy, black smoke
5. The ship was only accessible via one hatch in the front, which let me tell you is a giant PITA when wearing a FFE and Scott AirPack.

Also: there is no "suppression system," for if we had that at sea it would be the "kill everyone immediately" system.

UNC_Samurai: /Apparently the Navy seriously evaluated if the cost of scrapping the vessel was more cost-effective than repairing it.


That's a fact.  The hull is in good shape, the sonar arrays were undamaged, and everything aft of the watertight door is hunky-dory.  Replacing her would take years of diminished capability and cost 5x as much.
 
2013-03-15 04:17:39 PM

kindms: Like what ? following other subs that maybe a handful of other countries own ? maybe the occasional black Op ?

Like I said a complete waste of $$$. It is basically just another socialized work program for Electric Boat and the folks who call this their job.


You may want to brush up on your knowledge of world submarine fleets if you think there are a "handful" of other countries with them.
 
2013-03-15 04:18:08 PM

lucksi: So, just declare bankruptcy now and long before he is out of prison, he will be debt free.


I don't think Bankruptcy applies for court ordered payments.

/ Not a lawyer
 
2013-03-15 04:18:39 PM

devine: He set fire to a farking nuclear sub so he could go home early? I kinda wish the court did the same thing.


but then we'd be out two subs!
 
2013-03-15 04:19:27 PM

kindms: Like we really need f-ing Attack subs.

Just write off the loss. Put the guy in the slammer and call it a day.

What a waste of $$

We have plenty of ICBMs etc to get the job done. We don't need to keep throwing money away on tools no one wants to use and if they ever get used won't really matter anyway.


Fighters no longer need guns....
We no longer need tanks....
Heavy bombers are useless....
 
2013-03-15 04:20:48 PM
I had a coworker years ago who was a convicted felon for a bank robbery.  He was making $12/hour at that job and had an $80,000 restitution that he had to pay.  He knew that him paying that back was never going to happen.  He couldn't even make the required monthly payment that he was ordered to make.  He explained to me that all he did was just make $100/month payments to stay out of jail for non-payment of the restitution.  He went on to say that it was just the government's way of punishing him long after he got out of prison.
 
2013-03-15 04:23:38 PM

factoryconnection: kindms: Like what ? following other subs that maybe a handful of other countries own ? maybe the occasional black Op ?

Like I said a complete waste of $$$. It is basically just another socialized work program for Electric Boat and the folks who call this their job.

You may want to brush up on your knowledge of world submarine fleets if you think there are a "handful" of other countries with them.


7 countries with ballistic subs and a few dozen more with "regular" subs.

of those countries only 2 would be considered a potential threat to the US Russia and China.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Worldmap_Submarines.svg

So as a former submariner what exactly is the typical mission of these extremely expensive weapons of war ?
 
2013-03-15 04:24:45 PM
$400 million? That's more than this guy's and his family's lives are worth.

Shoot him for treason, make an example out of him. Prison just costs the taxpayers more anyway.
 
2013-03-15 04:27:03 PM

Great Janitor: I had a coworker years ago who was a convicted felon for a bank robbery.  He was making $12/hour at that job and had an $80,000 restitution that he had to pay.  He knew that him paying that back was never going to happen.  He couldn't even make the required monthly payment that he was ordered to make.  He explained to me that all he did was just make $100/month payments to stay out of jail for non-payment of the restitution.  He went on to say that it was just the government's way of punishing him long after he got out of prison.


How much money did he steal and what happened to it?
 
2013-03-15 04:27:40 PM

factoryconnection: Attack subs have the highest operational tempo of any ship in the Navy


by hull or by crew?
 
2013-03-15 04:29:26 PM
I guess we don't need to worry about sequestration cuts anymore.  This guy's got it covered!
 
2013-03-15 04:30:32 PM

kindms: factoryconnection: kindms: Like what ? following other subs that maybe a handful of other countries own ? maybe the occasional black Op ?

Like I said a complete waste of $$$. It is basically just another socialized work program for Electric Boat and the folks who call this their job.

You may want to brush up on your knowledge of world submarine fleets if you think there are a "handful" of other countries with them.

7 countries with ballistic subs and a few dozen more with "regular" subs.

of those countries only 2 would be considered a potential threat to the US Russia and China.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Worldmap_Submarines.svg

So as a former submariner what exactly is the typical mission of these extremely expensive weapons of war ?


Not him, but SSN's aren't primarily about handling other subs.  Hence, the old saying: "There are only two types of ships in the world, submarines and targets."

Their primary purpose is to neutralize surface ships, and our current generation is good enough that, until recently, our own radar systems couldn't detect them when they were running silent.
 
2013-03-15 04:30:53 PM
Setting fire to a nuclear submarine as a ploy to leave work a few hours early seems a bit extreme.
Could he not have just told his boss that he had diarrhea? Migraine? Sick kid?
Maybe he had already exhausted those excuses.
 
2013-03-15 04:31:02 PM

Zeno-25: $400 million? That's more than this guy's and his family's lives are worth.

Shoot him for treason, make an example out of him. Prison just costs the taxpayers more anyway.


And that's exactly how I feel about those motherfarking coonts at Enron. You ruin 10000 people's lives by farking up their pensions.. you should just die.
 
2013-03-15 04:31:31 PM

johnny_vegas: factoryconnection: Attack subs have the highest operational tempo of any ship in the Navy

by hull or by crew?


By crew, but the SSGNs are catching up.
 
2013-03-15 04:31:34 PM
That's a lot of nickles!
 
2013-03-15 04:32:45 PM
How did he even get a security clearance to work on the boat?

You'd think the background check would have found out that he watches deviant porn, wears an animal suit, and goes to that convention in Pittsburgh.

What?

Fury?

Oh.  Never mind.
 
2013-03-15 04:32:45 PM
Damn preview.

www.movieneon.com

That's a lot of nickles!
 
2013-03-15 04:32:58 PM
Florida tag?
 
2013-03-15 04:33:17 PM

Thunderpipes: kindms: Like we really need f-ing Attack subs.

Just write off the loss. Put the guy in the slammer and call it a day.

What a waste of $$

We have plenty of ICBMs etc to get the job done. We don't need to keep throwing money away on tools no one wants to use and if they ever get used won't really matter anyway.

Fighters no longer need guns....
We no longer need tanks....
Heavy bombers are useless....


that has to be the dumbest argument ever.

Please tell us when the last major US Naval battle was, when was the last sub battle ? And we are discussing the need to fix ONE sub. Not the need for all subs but ONE.

This is the same crap that always happens when folks try to discuss scaling back military spending. Do we really need to have a HUGE fleet of subs when they are only really a nuclear first strike deterrent ?

As soon as people start talking about scaling back the spending you get folks like you screaming about leaving the country vulnerable to attack etc etc

Lets be honest we spend more $$ on our military than almost every country combined. Not replacing a single sub isn't going to weaken us as a nation.

Tanks, planes, guns, subs etc OK but we really don't need to have excessive amounts of them at the cost of other important areas of our country
 
2013-03-15 04:36:01 PM

johnny_vegas: factoryconnection: Attack subs have the highest operational tempo of any ship in the Navy

by hull or by crew?


Attack subs aren't missile boats.They don't carry the nuclear-deterrent ICBMs that you are prolly thinkin' of. SSNs (submarine[SS] + nuclear{N], as opposed to SS+B [ballistic {misslie}]) are the workhorse to patrol, stealthily, areas of strategic importance. The crews don't change out, the same guys are on every trip, staying in port for mere weeks between month-long patrols. That's why, when they get in, the party starts! They're goin' back out very soon.
 
2013-03-15 04:41:08 PM
STUPID GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE

OVERPAID
 
2013-03-15 04:44:32 PM

Dogsbody: Setting fire to a nuclear submarine as a ploy to leave work a few hours early seems a bit extreme.
Could he not have just told his boss that he had diarrhea? Migraine? Sick kid?
Maybe he had already exhausted those excuses.


Once I was talking to a guy that had been with Air Force Office of Special Investigations.
Randomly he was mentioning a case involving an expensive aircraft, and almost the exact same facts.
Guy wanted leave, somehow sabotaging the plane seemed like a good idea and would get him leave... millions in damage after two events and now the guy is still in prison.
I bet it's happened more times than that.... though you gotta thing some program to check morale/identify saborteurs ahead of time would be cheaper on the taxpayers.
 
2013-03-15 04:45:44 PM
Some guy wastes $400-500 million through arson and suddenly people are concerned about tax payer monies?  Come on... a half a billion is chump change for what is squandered and stolen every day. Is that people can understand it when someone sets a fire and causes damage but they can't understand financial fraud or follow the money through the political process?

As to the idiot, if he wanted to go home he should have just had himself a workplace accident. Odds are nobody would have questioned it the first couple times if he didn't hurt himself too badly.
 
2013-03-15 04:46:35 PM

kindms: Thunderpipes: kindms: Like we really need f-ing Attack subs.

Just write off the loss. Put the guy in the slammer and call it a day.

What a waste of $$

We have plenty of ICBMs etc to get the job done. We don't need to keep throwing money away on tools no one wants to use and if they ever get used won't really matter anyway.

Fighters no longer need guns....
We no longer need tanks....
Heavy bombers are useless....

that has to be the dumbest argument ever.

Please tell us when the last major US Naval battle was, when was the last sub battle ? And we are discussing the need to fix ONE sub. Not the need for all subs but ONE.

This is the same crap that always happens when folks try to discuss scaling back military spending. Do we really need to have a HUGE fleet of subs when they are only really a nuclear first strike deterrent ?

As soon as people start talking about scaling back the spending you get folks like you screaming about leaving the country vulnerable to attack etc etc

Lets be honest we spend more $$ on our military than almost every country combined. Not replacing a single sub isn't going to weaken us as a nation.

Tanks, planes, guns, subs etc OK but we really don't need to have excessive amounts of them at the cost of other important areas of our country


I'm talking out of my ass here but...

I think one of the things (besides telling the country we would need several hundred thousand troops in Iraq) that got Army Chief of Staff in trouble with Hitler Youth Rumsfeld was Shinseki's support of an artillery network that Rumsfeld later quashed.

It sort of was Time On Target on steroids. It networked every artillery piece in the area to one control. One firing sequence, every gun around fires at whatever time required so that every projectile hits the same spot at the same time (unless you wanted to vary a few things).

Rumsfeld hated the system I guess because it wasn't designed for smaller unit combat. But I would think it pretty much limits the use of massed anything--tanks, personnel, whatever. Spending lots of money on thousands of tanks seems a little pointless anymore. Even if you have a war that fits their traditional use...

There was an American tank in Iraq that was penetrated and disabled by a single "small" round. So even using them in limited capacity is out...

/end of talking out of my civilian ass
 
2013-03-15 04:54:04 PM

factoryconnection: We could squeeze him for every penny he's ever earned or will earn and it wouldn't replace one birthing compartment in that boat.


Hell, it might not pay for the toilet seat, let alone the hammers to fix it with - and let's just throw in two hours of union labor.

/amirite?.
 
2013-03-15 04:56:41 PM
Ohio class (18 in commission) - 14 ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs), 4 guided missile submarines (SSGNs)
Virginia class (7 in commission, 3 under construction, 4 on order) Fast attack submarines
Seawolf class (3 in commission) - attack submarines
Los Angeles class (43 in commission, 2 in reserve) - attack submarines

So we have 71 and more on the way. No one thinks this is a problem ?

Lets say they only cost 1 billion a pop (which is probably under value) 71 billion dollars spent on these things. And this is only the active fleet. This doesn't even take in to account all the decommissioned ones. And people are complaining about not fixing one.
 
2013-03-15 04:57:52 PM
Just set him up to repair the thing under supervision for the next 17 years.
 
2013-03-15 04:58:05 PM

Noticeably F.A.T.: TheGreatGazoo: How can you do that much damage to a sub with a fire?  Isn't there a fire suppression system on board?

I'm guessing it's like the fire suppression systems you'll find on land, it's there to save lives not equipment, and can (potentially) do as much damage as a fire.


More than likely they'd be Halon which wouldn't damage equipment nearly as badly if at all...likely shut off while in drydock though so a welding torch doesn't gas a bunch of dock workers.
 
2013-03-15 04:59:58 PM

kindms: Ohio class (18 in commission) - 14 ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs), 4 guided missile submarines (SSGNs)
Virginia class (7 in commission, 3 under construction, 4 on order) Fast attack submarines
Seawolf class (3 in commission) - attack submarines
Los Angeles class (43 in commission, 2 in reserve) - attack submarines

So we have 71 and more on the way. No one thinks this is a problem ?

Lets say they only cost 1 billion a pop (which is probably under value) 71 billion dollars spent on these things. And this is only the active fleet. This doesn't even take in to account all the decommissioned ones. And people are complaining about not fixing one.


One Seawolf, the Carter, is surveillance only.
 
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