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(WCSH 8 Portland)   Guy who set USS Miami on fire to get some time off gets 17 years time off. Plus, has to pay back $400 million in restitution, which in cigarettes is infinity   (wcsh6.com ) divider line
    More: Amusing, USS Miami, restitution, cigarettes  
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9600 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Mar 2013 at 3:12 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-15 02:28:44 PM  
I received the call for NAVSEA HQ when this dumbass set the second fire (I know, CSB), which was the very moment everyone lost any doubt that the first was arson.  I can assure you, no tears were shed for that guy here today.
 
2013-03-15 02:44:10 PM  
The submariner groups on Facebook have been ablaze (sorry) about this light sentence.  The way I read it: what sentence un-torches that stack of $500M taxpayer dollars?  We could squeeze him for every penny he's ever earned or will earn and it wouldn't replace one birthing compartment in that boat.

Not to say that he isn't deserving of punishment, but nothing we do un-does his crime so we're stuck with the bill, those firefighters are stuck with their lung damage, etc...

All this sh*t over "girl troubles."  What a maniac.

/dolphin wearer
 
2013-03-15 02:44:32 PM  
Has to repay $400 million? That should only take him about 400 million years.
 
2013-03-15 03:01:45 PM  
If he really needs the money, he should just call Montel Williams.
 
2013-03-15 03:15:16 PM  
Remember the Miami!!!
 
2013-03-15 03:16:17 PM  
$400 mil you say guess he wes his soul to the company store
 
2013-03-15 03:17:07 PM  
He should also be charged with treason. He weakened our national security on top of everything else. Shoot him.
 
2013-03-15 03:17:08 PM  
You just can't understand that level of stupid.
 
2013-03-15 03:17:44 PM  

8 inches: If he really needs the money, he should just call Montel Williams.


The Western Sky people may give him a better interest rate.
 
2013-03-15 03:18:41 PM  

factoryconnection: The submariner groups on Facebook have been ablaze (sorry) about this light sentence.  The way I read it: what sentence un-torches that stack of $500M taxpayer dollars?  We could squeeze him for every penny he's ever earned or will earn and it wouldn't replace one birthing compartment in that boat.

Not to say that he isn't deserving of punishment, but nothing we do un-does his crime so we're stuck with the bill, those firefighters are stuck with their lung damage, etc...

All this sh*t over "girl troubles."  What a maniac.

/dolphin wearer

How many of those do most boats actually have?

 
2013-03-15 03:19:00 PM  
How long before he sets the prison on fire so he can go home?
 
2013-03-15 03:19:48 PM  
A more suitable sentence would be to tie his ass to the conning tower of the boat on her return to duty.
Exec, 'Chief, dive the boat.'
Chief: Aye sir, 'Dive the boat'.
Exec: 'Did you hear something Chief?'
Chief: 'Negative sir, what depth?'
Exec: 'Make your depth 300 feet.'
 
2013-03-15 03:19:53 PM  
He's gonna have to go down a bit to earn the money to pay off that fine.
 
2013-03-15 03:19:54 PM  
Did he get his stapler back?
 
2013-03-15 03:22:24 PM  
He set fire to a farking nuclear sub so he could go home early? I kinda wish the court did the same thing.
 
2013-03-15 03:23:26 PM  
FTA: The sentence imposed Friday on Casey James Fury ...

spinoff.comicbookresources.com
no relation
 
2013-03-15 03:24:41 PM  
That was my brother's boat. There are no words to describe the level of stupidity Fury has attained.
 
2013-03-15 03:26:17 PM  

factoryconnection: The submariner groups on Facebook have been ablaze (sorry) about this light sentence.  The way I read it: what sentence un-torches that stack of $500M taxpayer dollars?  We could squeeze him for every penny he's ever earned or will earn and it wouldn't replace one birthing compartment in that boat.



Enough people give birth on submarines that they need multiple birthing compartments?
 
2013-03-15 03:27:11 PM  

factoryconnection: The submariner groups on Facebook have been ablaze (sorry) about this light sentence.  The way I read it: what sentence un-torches that stack of $500M taxpayer dollars? We could squeeze him for every penny he's ever earned or will earn and it wouldn't replace one birthing compartment in that boat.

Not to say that he isn't deserving of punishment, but nothing we do un-does his crime so we're stuck with the bill, those firefighters are stuck with their lung damage, etc...

All this sh*t over "girl troubles."  What a maniac.

/dolphin wearer


Why don't we ask the banks?  I'm sure they'd be able to answer that question several times over based on experience.
 
2013-03-15 03:27:40 PM  
No wonder squirrels love America. It's full of nuts.

t2.gstatic.com
 
2013-03-15 03:28:45 PM  
I wonder how his anxiety is faring now?
 
2013-03-15 03:29:02 PM  

Joce678: factoryconnection: The submariner groups on Facebook have been ablaze (sorry) about this light sentence.  The way I read it: what sentence un-torches that stack of $500M taxpayer dollars?  We could squeeze him for every penny he's ever earned or will earn and it wouldn't replace one birthing compartment in that boat.


Enough people give birth on submarines that they need multiple birthing compartments?


You forgot about the seamen involved.
 
2013-03-15 03:32:03 PM  

A Shambling Mound: How many of those do most boats actually have?


Joce678: Enough people give birth on submarines that they need multiple birthing compartments?


Nice one... you got me.  My wife is a childbirth educator and I suppose it sticks to me.  "Berthing."

Frankentots: Why don't we ask the banks? I'm sure they'd be able to answer that question several times over based on experience.


I suppose the court was unable to order him paid a $5M golden parachute, which you're right seems to be the normal result of wasting hundreds of millions of other peoples' dollars.
 
2013-03-15 03:32:37 PM  
We gave away/lost more than that amount of cash in Iraq with no accounting. I don't see Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld being on the hook for restitution.
static.guim.co.uk
 
2013-03-15 03:32:45 PM  
Good thing he already finished filming the second half of the final season.


www.wcsh6.com

images2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-03-15 03:33:36 PM  

factoryconnection: The submariner groups on Facebook have been ablaze (sorry) about this light sentence.  The way I read it: what sentence un-torches that stack of $500M taxpayer dollars?  We could squeeze him for every penny he's ever earned or will earn and it wouldn't replace one birthing compartment in that boat.

Not to say that he isn't deserving of punishment, but nothing we do un-does his crime so we're stuck with the bill, those firefighters are stuck with their lung damage, etc...

All this sh*t over "girl troubles."  What a maniac.

/dolphin wearer


I think that's how it goes with a lot of crimes...
 
2013-03-15 03:34:04 PM  
Actually, regarding the "birthing" on a sub: I have to figure that a submarine is the only place where adding a newborn baby to your life would not decrease the amount of sleep you get, nor add any frustration to the wake-ups you receive.
 
2013-03-15 03:35:54 PM  
There should never be that much wood on a sub. Never.
 
2013-03-15 03:37:57 PM  
The guy's last name is Fury.  He's taken his namesake as synonymous with 'anger' too far and apparently could think of no other way of going home.  Now he will face the Furies who torment criminals.
 
2013-03-15 03:38:30 PM  
Why does it cost $450 million to fix a sub?  While the guy deserves the pokie for a long time it sounds like Navy and taxpayer was burned twice.
 
2013-03-15 03:38:45 PM  
For 17+ years you won't be going home, dumbass.
 
2013-03-15 03:41:17 PM  
christ almighty.
 
2013-03-15 03:41:25 PM  
He caused $400m in damage because he was having an anxiety attack?  I wonder what how he will handle his anxiety in the PMITA prison.
 
2013-03-15 03:41:25 PM  

Car_Ramrod: I think that's how it goes with a lot of crimes...


Usually when vast amounts of money are taken, they were taken somewhere.  Usually when something big is destroyed, it is insured.  This time, nope it is just a bunch of money that we'll spend to fix MIAMI that the asshole that took it didn't even get to enjoy, much less return.

Maybe I'm doing a bad job of stating that this is just entirely frustrating from a crime and punishment POV: the costs of his crime are just so much more massive than anything he could ever do to repay it.
 
2013-03-15 03:41:27 PM  
Like we really need f-ing Attack subs.

Just write off the loss. Put the guy in the slammer and call it a day.

What a waste of $$

We have plenty of ICBMs etc to get the job done. We don't need to keep throwing money away on tools no one wants to use and if they ever get used won't really matter anyway.
 
2013-03-15 03:41:33 PM  

Caffandtranqs: The guy's last name is Fury.  He's taken his namesake as synonymous with 'anger' too far and apparently could think of no other way of going home.  Now he will face the Furies who torment criminals.


I think Furies just about torment everyone.
 
2013-03-15 03:41:53 PM  
CSB:
When you fark with the military, it's treated as an act of war. A guy cut a cable on a fast attack sub going thru overhaul (a two-year rebuild) at the shipyard in Bremerton. He didn't tell anybody, and when it was found (every cable gets checked in these doings), they thought they could find him thru the cut marks on the it. They took everybody's pruning shears (the tool that was used), 80 from dayshift alone, and tried to match them like bullets. Out of the 120 or so shears (all electricians, all shifts, damn near all shipyard, along with other trades that had a use for them), they found about twenty that fit. So much for that line of inquiry...  Turned out it was a sailor assigned to the overhaul crew (skeleton crew for firewatches, funerals, and wipeing officer's butts) who wanted out of Bremerton.

/it worked for him
//Leavenworth is lovely in 1976
///lotta money spent in time and effort
 
2013-03-15 03:42:36 PM  
" $400 million in restitution, which in cigarettes is infinity "


Okay, in other words two or three packs depending on brand.
 
2013-03-15 03:43:55 PM  
I understand the prison sentence, but what's the point of the $400 million?  He's never going to make that kind of money.  Stuff like this makes me wish we had some kind of penal colony where he could just be removed from our society and we'd be done with him, not paying his living expenses (as crappy as they are) for the next 17 years.
 
2013-03-15 03:44:28 PM  
I worked at PNS in the 80's, Shop 38 (outside machinist). Wonder what shop he worked for.


he should be put UNDER the jail.
 
2013-03-15 03:45:11 PM  

mrlewish: Why does it cost $450 million to fix a sub?  While the guy deserves the pokie for a long time it sounds like Navy and taxpayer was burned twice.


They cost over a $Billion new, and VA-class subs are over $2B I think.  He burned up all the forward-compartment equipment, which is everything that isn't propulsion.  Just clearing all that destroyed material and re-making the interior frame is going to be hard enough, plus the cost of all the equipment and re-tooling for equipment that hasn't been produced in over 10 years.

kindms: Like we really need f-ing Attack subs.

Just write off the loss. Put the guy in the slammer and call it a day.

What a waste of $$

We have plenty of ICBMs etc to get the job done. We don't need to keep throwing money away on tools no one wants to use and if they ever get used won't really matter anyway.


Attack subs have the highest operational tempo of any ship in the Navy.  ICBMs have nothing to do with SSNs... and SSNs do their intended job all the time.
 
2013-03-15 03:47:15 PM  

factoryconnection: ICBMs have nothing to do with SSNs... and SSNs do their intended job all the time.


What the fark does Social Security have to do with this? Talk about getting off subject!
 
2013-03-15 03:48:44 PM  

kindms: Like we really need f-ing Attack subs.

Just write off the loss. Put the guy in the slammer and call it a day.

What a waste of $$

We have plenty of ICBMs etc to get the job done. We don't need to keep throwing money away on tools no one wants to use and if they ever get used won't really matter anyway.


I agree. Despite the years of service, if there is $400 million dollars of damage, we should decommission and scrap the sub.  Regarding the embarrassment that an act of arson was able to decommission a submarine, $400 million dollars is still too much to waste on an old submarine, the Seawolf and Virginia classes should be good to build one if we really need a new attack submarine (we don't; but if they want to, name it the new USS Miami) as well as the other LA class attack submarines we still have in commission.
 
2013-03-15 03:49:20 PM  
www.dvdtimes.co.uk

Has definitely had enough of this guy's bullshiat.
 
2013-03-15 03:49:23 PM  
Hey, submarine people:

Do subs still have a plug you can unscrew in the bottom to scuttle them?  I swear I saw that in a Nazi movie one time...
 
2013-03-15 03:49:48 PM  
How hard is it to put out a fire on a boat designed to sink?
Also, with all teh gay on that sub, I bet they could get it looking absolutely fabulous ahead of schedule and under budget just put a little butthole grease into it.
 
2013-03-15 03:50:16 PM  
I am surprised his union, yes he is a union member, didn't try to get him off.
 
2013-03-15 03:53:01 PM  
Load him on to Seawolf class sub, take him down to about 1500 ft, load him into a torp tube with some air bags strapped to him, and see what happens to the human body during rapid accent at that depth.
 
2013-03-15 03:53:32 PM  
I work on SONAR, glad none of our equipment was damaged, Sorry for all others involved :(
 
2013-03-15 03:54:22 PM  
How can you do that much damage to a sub with a fire?  Isn't there a fire suppression system on board?
 
2013-03-15 03:54:55 PM  

mrlewish: Why does it cost $450 million to fix a sub?  While the guy deserves the pokie for a long time it sounds like Navy and taxpayer was burned twice.


The Virginias cost about $2.6 billion.  His fire apparently did significant damage to the forward torpedo room, C&C, and several other forward compartments.  Keep in mind, these subs are designed to operate for 10 years before they need a major overhaul, and those ships are carefully engineered to minimize noise transmission outside the hull.  Repairing fire and water damage is always expensive, even on a house.  Combine it with a structure that is intended for a very specific purpose, and there are only a handful of them in service.  You can't exactly run down to Best Buy and grab a Raytheon Integrated Combat System.

/Apparently the Navy seriously evaluated if the cost of scrapping the vessel was more cost-effective than repairing it.
 
2013-03-15 03:55:12 PM  

factoryconnection: Car_Ramrod: I think that's how it goes with a lot of crimes...

Usually when vast amounts of money are taken, they were taken somewhere.  Usually when something big is destroyed, it is insured.  This time, nope it is just a bunch of money that we'll spend to fix MIAMI that the asshole that took it didn't even get to enjoy, much less return.

Maybe I'm doing a bad job of stating that this is just entirely frustrating from a crime and punishment POV: the costs of his crime are just so much more massive than anything he could ever do to repay it.


And yet, completely inconsequential compared to the cost of a single rape or murder.
 
2013-03-15 03:55:21 PM  
His stupidity is breathtaking. He makes the guys who phone in bomb threats from their office desks seem positively Aristotelian.
 
2013-03-15 03:55:38 PM  
The real question is, can he take it off his taxes?

//farking IRS and tax time
 
2013-03-15 03:58:35 PM  
but, but, he did it for  love.

don't you get it?  why are you insisting on punishing him?  he didn't do anything wrong.  Nothing is wrong when it is done for LURVE
 
2013-03-15 04:02:14 PM  
I don't think he can pay it off in cigarettes, not even menthols, since the trade value will be canceled out by the exchange of sexual favors.
 
2013-03-15 04:02:34 PM  

UNC_Samurai: mrlewish: Why does it cost $450 million to fix a sub?  While the guy deserves the pokie for a long time it sounds like Navy and taxpayer was burned twice.

/Apparently the Navy seriously evaluated if the cost of scrapping the vessel was more cost-effective than repairing it.


Here's the main question: Would you like to reach op depth in a hull that's been fire-hardened? I'd think twice, and call my detailer.
 
2013-03-15 04:02:37 PM  

Nem Wan: We gave away/lost more than that amount of cash in Iraq with no accounting. I don't see Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld being on the hook for restitution.
[static.guim.co.uk image 372x192]


Nor will Obama and his campaign money bundlers have to offer restitution for the $535 million  we lost to Solyndra or any of his other Green energy kick backs
 
2013-03-15 04:05:19 PM  

UNC_Samurai: You can't exactly run down to Best Buy and grab a Raytheon Integrated Combat System.


They're never in stock.  I tried on-line ordering but the waiting list is huge, and eBay won't take my Best Buy credit card.  What a ripoff.
 
2013-03-15 04:05:51 PM  

Resolute: factoryconnection: Car_Ramrod: I think that's how it goes with a lot of crimes...

Usually when vast amounts of money are taken, they were taken somewhere.  Usually when something big is destroyed, it is insured.  This time, nope it is just a bunch of money that we'll spend to fix MIAMI that the asshole that took it didn't even get to enjoy, much less return.

Maybe I'm doing a bad job of stating that this is just entirely frustrating from a crime and punishment POV: the costs of his crime are just so much more massive than anything he could ever do to repay it.

And yet, completely inconsequential compared to the cost of a single rape or murder.


Yea, that's kind of where I was going. A lot of crimes have costs that can't be measured in dollars and cents. And nothing we do as a society undoes that damage. It's frustrating, but that's how it works.
 
2013-03-15 04:06:12 PM  
The only way to attack a US naval vessel without reprecusion is to be Israeli.
 
2013-03-15 04:06:52 PM  

Mikeyworld: UNC_Samurai: mrlewish: Why does it cost $450 million to fix a sub?  While the guy deserves the pokie for a long time it sounds like Navy and taxpayer was burned twice.

/Apparently the Navy seriously evaluated if the cost of scrapping the vessel was more cost-effective than repairing it.

Here's the main question: Would you like to reach op depth in a hull that's been fire-hardened? I'd think twice, and call my detailer.


According to everything I've read, there was no damage to the hull or the nuclear compartment, just a bunch of internal compartments.
 
2013-03-15 04:08:10 PM  

factoryconnection: mrlewish: Why does it cost $450 million to fix a sub?  While the guy deserves the pokie for a long time it sounds like Navy and taxpayer was burned twice.

They cost over a $Billion new, and VA-class subs are over $2B I think.  He burned up all the forward-compartment equipment, which is everything that isn't propulsion.  Just clearing all that destroyed material and re-making the interior frame is going to be hard enough, plus the cost of all the equipment and re-tooling for equipment that hasn't been produced in over 10 years.

kindms: Like we really need f-ing Attack subs.

Just write off the loss. Put the guy in the slammer and call it a day.

What a waste of $$

We have plenty of ICBMs etc to get the job done. We don't need to keep throwing money away on tools no one wants to use and if they ever get used won't really matter anyway.

Attack subs have the highest operational tempo of any ship in the Navy.  ICBMs have nothing to do with SSNs... and SSNs do their intended job all the time.


Like what ? following other subs that maybe a handful of other countries own ? maybe the occasional black Op ?

Like I said a complete waste of $$$. It is basically just another socialized work program for Electric Boat and the folks who call this their job.
 
2013-03-15 04:08:45 PM  
a fire on a US Naval vessel, started by a dockworker, was able to damage it that much.... there's something wrong there somewhere. did the guy have a few thousand gallons of gasoline and unrestricted access to the entire sub? are nuclear submarines made out of greasy rags and newspaper? are there really no Navy guys standing around watching the ship and able to put out a fire before it can do $450,000,000 in damages?

yeah, let the guy rot in jail, but i don't think he's the only person to blame for the massive amount of damage he was able to do.
 
2013-03-15 04:09:46 PM  

TheGreatGazoo: How can you do that much damage to a sub with a fire?  Isn't there a fire suppression system on board?


I'm guessing it's like the fire suppression systems you'll find on land, it's there to save lives not equipment, and can (potentially) do as much damage as a fire.
 
2013-03-15 04:09:54 PM  
So, just declare bankruptcy now and long before he is out of prison, he will be debt free.
 
2013-03-15 04:10:26 PM  

flynn80: The only way to attack a US naval vessel without reprecusion is to be Israeli

or the seabed.

"USS San Francisco ran aground south of Guam while traveling underwater (nearly instantaneous deacceleration from Flank [maximum] Speed to 4 knots). Machinist Mate 2nd Class Joseph Allen Ashley was in Aft Main Seawater Bay on Engineroom Upper Level Watch at the time of the grounding, and his body was thrown forward approximately 20 feet into Propulsion Lube Oil Bay. He suffered a severe blow to his forehead and never regained consciousness, dying two days later. 1 killed and 15 injured. 8 Jan. 2005."
 
2013-03-15 04:11:59 PM  

UNC_Samurai: Mikeyworld: UNC_Samurai: mrlewish:

/Apparently the Navy seriously evaluated if the cost of scrapping the vessel was more cost-effective than repairing it.

Here's the main question: Would you like to reach op depth in a hull that's been fire-hardened? I'd think twice, and call my detailer.

According to everything I've read, there was no damage to the hull or the nuclear compartment, just a bunch of internal compartments.


Even so,...and I might be paranoid, Hy-80 is has very specific properties, and though interior damage was all there was, the heat surely did affect the temper of it. I'd be asking for a transfer.

/and watching the news during sea trails
 
2013-03-15 04:12:25 PM  

Resolute: And yet, completely inconsequential compared to the cost of a single rape or murder.


You might want to reconsider your comparison.  Not to devalue the cost of murder and rape but to consider this:  This asshat set fire to a nuclear powered sub less than 60 miles from Boston.  While a sub is designed to protect the reactor in event of combat damage, how many of those protections are removed during overhaul to allow the work to take place.  Yes the reactor was powered down; yes it remained safe.  But did the jackass know that when he decided it was Miller Timetm?  How many firefighters lives did he endanger?  How many has he shortened?

/big picture and all that
//thinks he's make a fine dock bumper.
/// If they forget to untie the bumper before doing a pressure test I'd forgive them.
 
2013-03-15 04:13:06 PM  

TheGreatGazoo: How can you do that much damage to a sub with a fire?  Isn't there a fire suppression system on board?


I would imagine they were disabled. Lots of welding happens in dry dock.
 
2013-03-15 04:13:36 PM  

TheGreatGazoo: How can you do that much damage to a sub with a fire?  Isn't there a fire suppression system on board?


The submarine was in drydock undergoing a major overhaul at the end of the working day.  That contributed to the problem in the following ways:
1. There was no cooling effect from the surrounding water, as there was no water
2. The forward compartment was torn up, with missing deckplates, passageways, and the normal firefighting system out of commission.  Perhaps the emergency breathing air system was degraded as well.
3. Most of the crew was gone, greatly decreasing the amount of people to notice the fire early
4. The shipyard fire department did respond, and quickly, but by then the fire had taken root in some hull insulation and was fairly inaccessible while producing heavy, black smoke
5. The ship was only accessible via one hatch in the front, which let me tell you is a giant PITA when wearing a FFE and Scott AirPack.

Also: there is no "suppression system," for if we had that at sea it would be the "kill everyone immediately" system.

UNC_Samurai: /Apparently the Navy seriously evaluated if the cost of scrapping the vessel was more cost-effective than repairing it.


That's a fact.  The hull is in good shape, the sonar arrays were undamaged, and everything aft of the watertight door is hunky-dory.  Replacing her would take years of diminished capability and cost 5x as much.
 
2013-03-15 04:17:39 PM  

kindms: Like what ? following other subs that maybe a handful of other countries own ? maybe the occasional black Op ?

Like I said a complete waste of $$$. It is basically just another socialized work program for Electric Boat and the folks who call this their job.


You may want to brush up on your knowledge of world submarine fleets if you think there are a "handful" of other countries with them.
 
2013-03-15 04:18:08 PM  

lucksi: So, just declare bankruptcy now and long before he is out of prison, he will be debt free.


I don't think Bankruptcy applies for court ordered payments.

/ Not a lawyer
 
2013-03-15 04:18:39 PM  

devine: He set fire to a farking nuclear sub so he could go home early? I kinda wish the court did the same thing.


but then we'd be out two subs!
 
2013-03-15 04:19:27 PM  

kindms: Like we really need f-ing Attack subs.

Just write off the loss. Put the guy in the slammer and call it a day.

What a waste of $$

We have plenty of ICBMs etc to get the job done. We don't need to keep throwing money away on tools no one wants to use and if they ever get used won't really matter anyway.


Fighters no longer need guns....
We no longer need tanks....
Heavy bombers are useless....
 
2013-03-15 04:20:48 PM  
I had a coworker years ago who was a convicted felon for a bank robbery.  He was making $12/hour at that job and had an $80,000 restitution that he had to pay.  He knew that him paying that back was never going to happen.  He couldn't even make the required monthly payment that he was ordered to make.  He explained to me that all he did was just make $100/month payments to stay out of jail for non-payment of the restitution.  He went on to say that it was just the government's way of punishing him long after he got out of prison.
 
2013-03-15 04:23:38 PM  

factoryconnection: kindms: Like what ? following other subs that maybe a handful of other countries own ? maybe the occasional black Op ?

Like I said a complete waste of $$$. It is basically just another socialized work program for Electric Boat and the folks who call this their job.

You may want to brush up on your knowledge of world submarine fleets if you think there are a "handful" of other countries with them.


7 countries with ballistic subs and a few dozen more with "regular" subs.

of those countries only 2 would be considered a potential threat to the US Russia and China.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Worldmap_Submarines.svg

So as a former submariner what exactly is the typical mission of these extremely expensive weapons of war ?
 
2013-03-15 04:24:45 PM  
$400 million? That's more than this guy's and his family's lives are worth.

Shoot him for treason, make an example out of him. Prison just costs the taxpayers more anyway.
 
2013-03-15 04:27:03 PM  

Great Janitor: I had a coworker years ago who was a convicted felon for a bank robbery.  He was making $12/hour at that job and had an $80,000 restitution that he had to pay.  He knew that him paying that back was never going to happen.  He couldn't even make the required monthly payment that he was ordered to make.  He explained to me that all he did was just make $100/month payments to stay out of jail for non-payment of the restitution.  He went on to say that it was just the government's way of punishing him long after he got out of prison.


How much money did he steal and what happened to it?
 
2013-03-15 04:27:40 PM  

factoryconnection: Attack subs have the highest operational tempo of any ship in the Navy


by hull or by crew?
 
2013-03-15 04:29:26 PM  
I guess we don't need to worry about sequestration cuts anymore.  This guy's got it covered!
 
2013-03-15 04:30:32 PM  

kindms: factoryconnection: kindms: Like what ? following other subs that maybe a handful of other countries own ? maybe the occasional black Op ?

Like I said a complete waste of $$$. It is basically just another socialized work program for Electric Boat and the folks who call this their job.

You may want to brush up on your knowledge of world submarine fleets if you think there are a "handful" of other countries with them.

7 countries with ballistic subs and a few dozen more with "regular" subs.

of those countries only 2 would be considered a potential threat to the US Russia and China.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Worldmap_Submarines.svg

So as a former submariner what exactly is the typical mission of these extremely expensive weapons of war ?


Not him, but SSN's aren't primarily about handling other subs.  Hence, the old saying: "There are only two types of ships in the world, submarines and targets."

Their primary purpose is to neutralize surface ships, and our current generation is good enough that, until recently, our own radar systems couldn't detect them when they were running silent.
 
2013-03-15 04:30:53 PM  
Setting fire to a nuclear submarine as a ploy to leave work a few hours early seems a bit extreme.
Could he not have just told his boss that he had diarrhea? Migraine? Sick kid?
Maybe he had already exhausted those excuses.
 
2013-03-15 04:31:02 PM  

Zeno-25: $400 million? That's more than this guy's and his family's lives are worth.

Shoot him for treason, make an example out of him. Prison just costs the taxpayers more anyway.


And that's exactly how I feel about those motherfarking coonts at Enron. You ruin 10000 people's lives by farking up their pensions.. you should just die.
 
2013-03-15 04:31:31 PM  

johnny_vegas: factoryconnection: Attack subs have the highest operational tempo of any ship in the Navy

by hull or by crew?


By crew, but the SSGNs are catching up.
 
2013-03-15 04:31:34 PM  
That's a lot of nickles!
 
2013-03-15 04:32:45 PM  
How did he even get a security clearance to work on the boat?

You'd think the background check would have found out that he watches deviant porn, wears an animal suit, and goes to that convention in Pittsburgh.

What?

Fury?

Oh.  Never mind.
 
2013-03-15 04:32:45 PM  
Damn preview.

www.movieneon.com

That's a lot of nickles!
 
2013-03-15 04:32:58 PM  
Florida tag?
 
2013-03-15 04:33:17 PM  

Thunderpipes: kindms: Like we really need f-ing Attack subs.

Just write off the loss. Put the guy in the slammer and call it a day.

What a waste of $$

We have plenty of ICBMs etc to get the job done. We don't need to keep throwing money away on tools no one wants to use and if they ever get used won't really matter anyway.

Fighters no longer need guns....
We no longer need tanks....
Heavy bombers are useless....


that has to be the dumbest argument ever.

Please tell us when the last major US Naval battle was, when was the last sub battle ? And we are discussing the need to fix ONE sub. Not the need for all subs but ONE.

This is the same crap that always happens when folks try to discuss scaling back military spending. Do we really need to have a HUGE fleet of subs when they are only really a nuclear first strike deterrent ?

As soon as people start talking about scaling back the spending you get folks like you screaming about leaving the country vulnerable to attack etc etc

Lets be honest we spend more $$ on our military than almost every country combined. Not replacing a single sub isn't going to weaken us as a nation.

Tanks, planes, guns, subs etc OK but we really don't need to have excessive amounts of them at the cost of other important areas of our country
 
2013-03-15 04:36:01 PM  

johnny_vegas: factoryconnection: Attack subs have the highest operational tempo of any ship in the Navy

by hull or by crew?


Attack subs aren't missile boats.They don't carry the nuclear-deterrent ICBMs that you are prolly thinkin' of. SSNs (submarine[SS] + nuclear{N], as opposed to SS+B [ballistic {misslie}]) are the workhorse to patrol, stealthily, areas of strategic importance. The crews don't change out, the same guys are on every trip, staying in port for mere weeks between month-long patrols. That's why, when they get in, the party starts! They're goin' back out very soon.
 
2013-03-15 04:41:08 PM  
STUPID GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE

OVERPAID
 
2013-03-15 04:44:32 PM  

Dogsbody: Setting fire to a nuclear submarine as a ploy to leave work a few hours early seems a bit extreme.
Could he not have just told his boss that he had diarrhea? Migraine? Sick kid?
Maybe he had already exhausted those excuses.


Once I was talking to a guy that had been with Air Force Office of Special Investigations.
Randomly he was mentioning a case involving an expensive aircraft, and almost the exact same facts.
Guy wanted leave, somehow sabotaging the plane seemed like a good idea and would get him leave... millions in damage after two events and now the guy is still in prison.
I bet it's happened more times than that.... though you gotta thing some program to check morale/identify saborteurs ahead of time would be cheaper on the taxpayers.
 
2013-03-15 04:45:44 PM  
Some guy wastes $400-500 million through arson and suddenly people are concerned about tax payer monies?  Come on... a half a billion is chump change for what is squandered and stolen every day. Is that people can understand it when someone sets a fire and causes damage but they can't understand financial fraud or follow the money through the political process?

As to the idiot, if he wanted to go home he should have just had himself a workplace accident. Odds are nobody would have questioned it the first couple times if he didn't hurt himself too badly.
 
2013-03-15 04:46:35 PM  

kindms: Thunderpipes: kindms: Like we really need f-ing Attack subs.

Just write off the loss. Put the guy in the slammer and call it a day.

What a waste of $$

We have plenty of ICBMs etc to get the job done. We don't need to keep throwing money away on tools no one wants to use and if they ever get used won't really matter anyway.

Fighters no longer need guns....
We no longer need tanks....
Heavy bombers are useless....

that has to be the dumbest argument ever.

Please tell us when the last major US Naval battle was, when was the last sub battle ? And we are discussing the need to fix ONE sub. Not the need for all subs but ONE.

This is the same crap that always happens when folks try to discuss scaling back military spending. Do we really need to have a HUGE fleet of subs when they are only really a nuclear first strike deterrent ?

As soon as people start talking about scaling back the spending you get folks like you screaming about leaving the country vulnerable to attack etc etc

Lets be honest we spend more $$ on our military than almost every country combined. Not replacing a single sub isn't going to weaken us as a nation.

Tanks, planes, guns, subs etc OK but we really don't need to have excessive amounts of them at the cost of other important areas of our country


I'm talking out of my ass here but...

I think one of the things (besides telling the country we would need several hundred thousand troops in Iraq) that got Army Chief of Staff in trouble with Hitler Youth Rumsfeld was Shinseki's support of an artillery network that Rumsfeld later quashed.

It sort of was Time On Target on steroids. It networked every artillery piece in the area to one control. One firing sequence, every gun around fires at whatever time required so that every projectile hits the same spot at the same time (unless you wanted to vary a few things).

Rumsfeld hated the system I guess because it wasn't designed for smaller unit combat. But I would think it pretty much limits the use of massed anything--tanks, personnel, whatever. Spending lots of money on thousands of tanks seems a little pointless anymore. Even if you have a war that fits their traditional use...

There was an American tank in Iraq that was penetrated and disabled by a single "small" round. So even using them in limited capacity is out...

/end of talking out of my civilian ass
 
2013-03-15 04:54:04 PM  

factoryconnection: We could squeeze him for every penny he's ever earned or will earn and it wouldn't replace one birthing compartment in that boat.


Hell, it might not pay for the toilet seat, let alone the hammers to fix it with - and let's just throw in two hours of union labor.

/amirite?.
 
2013-03-15 04:56:41 PM  
Ohio class (18 in commission) - 14 ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs), 4 guided missile submarines (SSGNs)
Virginia class (7 in commission, 3 under construction, 4 on order) Fast attack submarines
Seawolf class (3 in commission) - attack submarines
Los Angeles class (43 in commission, 2 in reserve) - attack submarines

So we have 71 and more on the way. No one thinks this is a problem ?

Lets say they only cost 1 billion a pop (which is probably under value) 71 billion dollars spent on these things. And this is only the active fleet. This doesn't even take in to account all the decommissioned ones. And people are complaining about not fixing one.
 
2013-03-15 04:57:52 PM  
Just set him up to repair the thing under supervision for the next 17 years.
 
2013-03-15 04:58:05 PM  

Noticeably F.A.T.: TheGreatGazoo: How can you do that much damage to a sub with a fire?  Isn't there a fire suppression system on board?

I'm guessing it's like the fire suppression systems you'll find on land, it's there to save lives not equipment, and can (potentially) do as much damage as a fire.


More than likely they'd be Halon which wouldn't damage equipment nearly as badly if at all...likely shut off while in drydock though so a welding torch doesn't gas a bunch of dock workers.
 
2013-03-15 04:59:58 PM  

kindms: Ohio class (18 in commission) - 14 ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs), 4 guided missile submarines (SSGNs)
Virginia class (7 in commission, 3 under construction, 4 on order) Fast attack submarines
Seawolf class (3 in commission) - attack submarines
Los Angeles class (43 in commission, 2 in reserve) - attack submarines

So we have 71 and more on the way. No one thinks this is a problem ?

Lets say they only cost 1 billion a pop (which is probably under value) 71 billion dollars spent on these things. And this is only the active fleet. This doesn't even take in to account all the decommissioned ones. And people are complaining about not fixing one.


One Seawolf, the Carter, is surveillance only.
 
2013-03-15 05:00:37 PM  

TheGreatGazoo: How can you do that much damage to a sub with a fire?  Isn't there a fire suppression system on board?


Yep, screen doors.
 
2013-03-15 05:09:34 PM  

kindms: Thunderpipes: kindms: Like we really need f-ing Attack subs.

Just write off the loss. Put the guy in the slammer and call it a day.

What a waste of $$

We have plenty of ICBMs etc to get the job done. We don't need to keep throwing money away on tools no one wants to use and if they ever get used won't really matter anyway.

Fighters no longer need guns....
We no longer need tanks....
Heavy bombers are useless....

that has to be the dumbest argument ever.

Please tell us when the last major US Naval battle was, when was the last sub battle ? And we are discussing the need to fix ONE sub. Not the need for all subs but ONE.

This is the same crap that always happens when folks try to discuss scaling back military spending. Do we really need to have a HUGE fleet of subs when they are only really a nuclear first strike deterrent ?

As soon as people start talking about scaling back the spending you get folks like you screaming about leaving the country vulnerable to attack etc etc

Lets be honest we spend more $$ on our military than almost every country combined. Not replacing a single sub isn't going to weaken us as a nation.

Tanks, planes, guns, subs etc OK but we really don't need to have excessive amounts of them at the cost of other important areas of our country


The answer is obvious:  boilermakers and their families vote.
 
2013-03-15 05:15:15 PM  

kindms: Ohio class (18 in commission) - 14 ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs), 4 guided missile submarines (SSGNs)
Virginia class (7 in commission, 3 under construction, 4 on order) Fast attack submarines
Seawolf class (3 in commission) - attack submarines
Los Angeles class (43 in commission, 2 in reserve) - attack submarines

So we have 71 and more on the way. No one thinks this is a problem ?

Lets say they only cost 1 billion a pop (which is probably under value) 71 billion dollars spent on these things. And this is only the active fleet. This doesn't even take in to account all the decommissioned ones. And people are complaining about not fixing one.


The Earth's water area is approximately 361,800,000 sq km.   That's alot of space to cover.

/also, have I mentioned union work?
 
2013-03-15 05:18:11 PM  

Mikeyworld: johnny_vegas: factoryconnection: Attack subs have the highest operational tempo of any ship in the Navy

by hull or by crew?

Attack subs aren't missile boats.They don't carry the nuclear-deterrent ICBMs that you are prolly thinkin' of. SSNs (submarine[SS] + nuclear{N], as opposed to SS+B [ballistic {misslie}]) are the workhorse to patrol, stealthily, areas of strategic importance. The crews don't change out, the same guys are on every trip, staying in port for mere weeks between month-long patrols. That's why, when they get in, the party starts! They're goin' back out very soon.


Can't have $8Billion CVNs without $2Bn attack subs to protect them from $2Million diesel electrics.
 
2013-03-15 05:21:44 PM  

kindms: Ohio class (18 in commission) - 14 ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs), 4 guided missile submarines (SSGNs)
Virginia class (7 in commission, 3 under construction, 4 on order) Fast attack submarines
Seawolf class (3 in commission) - attack submarines
Los Angeles class (43 in commission, 2 in reserve) - attack submarines

So we have 71 and more on the way. No one thinks this is a problem ?

Lets say they only cost 1 billion a pop (which is probably under value) 71 billion dollars spent on these things. And this is only the active fleet. This doesn't even take in to account all the decommissioned ones. And people are complaining about not fixing one.


There aren't enough attack submarines now to meet existing combatant commander requirements. Submarines aren't just used to trail Russian submarines anymore -- they're one of the most versatile units in the Navy's arsenal.  When a destroyer costs $3.5 billion (ZUMWALT class), a carrier costs $13.5 billion  without air wing coont8), and the LCS is over $500 million with almost no organic warfighting capability, those $2 billion VIRGINIAs look pretty cost-effective to me!
 
2013-03-15 05:23:44 PM  

hasty ambush: Nem Wan: We gave away/lost more than that amount of cash in Iraq with no accounting. I don't see Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld being on the hook for restitution.
[static.guim.co.uk image 372x192]

Nor will Obama and his campaign money bundlers have to offer restitution for the $535 million  we lost to Solyndra or any of his other Green energy kick backs


Go away.
 
2013-03-15 05:24:56 PM  

Turbo Cojones: Can't have $8Billion CVNs without $2Bn attack subs to protect them from $2Million diesel electrics.


The 6 Kilos that Vietnam is buying from Russia will cost a total of approx $2.1B plus another $1B for armament.
 
2013-03-15 05:28:31 PM  

Mikeyworld: johnny_vegas: factoryconnection: Attack subs have the highest operational tempo of any ship in the Navy

by hull or by crew?

Attack subs aren't missile boats.They don't carry the nuclear-deterrent ICBMs that you are prolly thinkin' of. SSNs (submarine[SS] + nuclear{N], as opposed to SS+B [ballistic {misslie}]) are the workhorse to patrol, stealthily, areas of strategic importance. The crews don't change out, the same guys are on every trip, staying in port for mere weeks between month-long patrols. That's why, when they get in, the party starts! They're goin' back out very soon.


doyner: johnny_vegas: factoryconnection: Attack subs have the highest operational tempo of any ship in the Navy

by hull or by crew?

By crew, but the SSGNs are catching up.


Thanks for the course correction.  I knew better but engaged mouth too soon.

I would be surprised if the BMD destroyers did not come awfully close to beating SSN optempo and in general optempo for many ships has gone through the roof over the last couple years....though the sequester will take care of that!
 
2013-03-15 05:30:44 PM  

MadManMoon: a carrier costs $13.5 billion  without air wing coont8)


Best filter pwnage ever!

Supposed to be the designator and hull number for the USS GERALD FORD (Charlie Victor November Seven Eight).
 
2013-03-15 05:39:54 PM  
Powerball's up to $216-million... All he's got to do is win a couple of those.
 
2013-03-15 05:40:23 PM  

factoryconnection: The submariner groups on Facebook have been ablaze (sorry) about this light sentence.  The way I read it: what sentence un-torches that stack of $500M taxpayer dollars?  We could squeeze him for every penny he's ever earned or will earn and it wouldn't replace one birthing compartment in that boat.

Not to say that he isn't deserving of punishment, but nothing we do un-does his crime so we're stuck with the bill, those firefighters are stuck with their lung damage, etc...

All this sh*t over "girl troubles."  What a maniac.

/dolphin wearer


If someone did this to one of the ships I've worked on, I'd track them down and strip

every

last

cable

out of their body.

And I'm a contractor.  (I've spent the last X years writing lots of the specs and corrections for the mid-life refit.)  I can't even imagine what you'd want to do if you served.
 
2013-03-15 05:41:33 PM  
Don't they cost something like $900 million brand new?  May as well use it for spare parts.
 
2013-03-15 05:42:34 PM  

johnny_vegas: I would be surprised if the BMD destroyers did not come awfully close to beating SSN optempo and in general optempo for many ships has gone through the roof over the last couple years....though the sequester will take care of that!


Sequester won't effect BMD platforms or the submarine fleet with respect to coverage of existing commitments.

Arsonists and shiatty drivers, on the other hand...
 
2013-03-15 05:43:28 PM  

kindms: Thunderpipes: kindms: Like we really need f-ing Attack subs.

Just write off the loss. Put the guy in the slammer and call it a day.

What a waste of $$

We have plenty of ICBMs etc to get the job done. We don't need to keep throwing money away on tools no one wants to use and if they ever get used won't really matter anyway.

Fighters no longer need guns....
We no longer need tanks....
Heavy bombers are useless....

that has to be the dumbest argument ever.

Please tell us when the last major US Naval battle was, when was the last sub battle ? And we are discussing the need to fix ONE sub. Not the need for all subs but ONE.

This is the same crap that always happens when folks try to discuss scaling back military spending. Do we really need to have a HUGE fleet of subs when they are only really a nuclear first strike deterrent ?

As soon as people start talking about scaling back the spending you get folks like you screaming about leaving the country vulnerable to attack etc etc

Lets be honest we spend more $$ on our military than almost every country combined. Not replacing a single sub isn't going to weaken us as a nation.

Tanks, planes, guns, subs etc OK but we really don't need to have excessive amounts of them at the cost of other important areas of our country


We don't need to fix that sub.  Obama has another vacation coming up.  Priorities people!
 
2013-03-15 05:44:37 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Don't they cost something like $900 million brand new?  May as well use it for spare parts.


Not so simple.  Each boat is different.  The variations in configuration are enormous.  MIAMI is a 688i--we haven't decommissioned enough to use them as spares, and it ($400M notwithstanding) is easier to fix and keep active then upgrading older (original) 688s to meet demand.
 
2013-03-15 05:48:39 PM  

kindms: Ohio class (18 in commission) - 14 ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs), 4 guided missile submarines (SSGNs)
Virginia class (7 in commission, 3 under construction, 4 on order) Fast attack submarines
Seawolf class (3 in commission) - attack submarines
Los Angeles class (43 in commission, 2 in reserve) - attack submarines

So we have 71 and more on the way. No one thinks this is a problem ?

Lets say they only cost 1 billion a pop (which is probably under value) 71 billion dollars spent on these things. And this is only the active fleet. This doesn't even take in to account all the decommissioned ones. And people are complaining about not fixing one.


You really can't lump SSBN's, SSGN's and SSN's in the same category. They all have very different missions from each other. Sure there are some similarities and some crossover but you aren't ever going to be taking a boatload of your strategic defense force and put it at risk (well, no more than you have to anyway). So that realistically leaves 50 boats to do the more "Traditional" submarine work (in reserve means mothballed which can take over a year to get back up and running, and not at an insignificant cost either).

So you have 50 SSN's commissioned, at any given time roughly half are unavailable for any number of reasons but its mostly maintenance related, many repairs simply cannot be performed at sea either because it's not possible due to being submerged, it takes special equipment that there's simply no room to store on board, the parts aren't available, the work requires the weapons to be offloaded, the work itself causes atmospheric contamination or a bunch of other very realistic reasons.

So that leaves about 25 boats available for sea duty. I don't know if you've noticed or not but there is a whole lot of ocean. By my reckoning that's over five million square miles per boat. Now of course not every square mile needs to be covered and the ideal situation would be to have a boat where you need it, when you need it, but often you can't and don't know where that will be so you have to hedge your bets and keep some in reserve to send places as needed. And speaking of sending them places that's gonna take some time away from them doing whatever it is that you need them to do (did I mention how big the worlds oceans are?).

I noticed that someone mentioned the Russians and the Chinese as potential threats. There are other ones out there as well. Iran and North Korea both have their own submarines. Granted, they're going to be limited in range compared to a nuclear powered boat but they both are relatively close to some very strategic waterways. By my reckoning those four countries have a combined total of well over 150 nuclear and conventional boats of which if even only one third of which is able to go to sea at any given time is still twice what we could have at sea. Our cupboard isn't bare but it sure isn't where it was just a few decades ago either.
 
2013-03-15 06:15:46 PM  
Has the Navy learned anything from this about how a single arsonist can destroy a billion dollar sub? I think that's the real story here.
 
2013-03-15 06:16:39 PM  

doyner: Marcus Aurelius: Don't they cost something like $900 million brand new?  May as well use it for spare parts.

Not so simple.  Each boat is different.  The variations in configuration are enormous.  MIAMI is a 688i--we haven't decommissioned enough to use them as spares, and it ($400M notwithstanding) is easier to fix and keep active then upgrading older (original) 688s to meet demand.


I guessed that it wasn't quite like a car.

A fire on a ship is the worst possible scenario, I cannot imagine the damage.

And I'm guessing it wasn't insured.

CSB, I saw the Thresher set sail back in '63 from the exact same port.
 
2013-03-15 06:25:17 PM  

lelio: Has the Navy learned anything from this about how a single arsonist can destroy a billion dollar sub? I think that's the real story here.


99.99999% of that workforce takes immense pride in their work, and you can't very well supervise them all constantly.  And a US Navy warship is typically chock full of things that burn really well.  I'd say the story is that this has never happened before.
 
2013-03-15 06:35:09 PM  
*than

/dammit
 
2013-03-15 06:35:15 PM  

ZMugg: I worked at PNS in the 80's, Shop 38 (outside machinist). Wonder what shop he worked for.


he should be put UNDER the jail.


Pretty sure he was a painter or x71

//former x67oem from MINSY
 
2013-03-15 06:37:31 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: lelio: Has the Navy learned anything from this about how a single arsonist can destroy a billion dollar sub? I think that's the real story here.

99.99999% of that workforce takes immense pride in their work, and you can't very well supervise them all constantly.  And a US Navy warship is typically chock full of things that burn really well.  I'd say the story is that this has never happened before.


Boats have caught fire before and ended up being scrapped (I think the one before this one was the Bonefish). It is the worst casualty on a submarine (not flooding as one might expect, you can make it so that flooding is survivable up to a point but even a little fire can cause major problems very quickly). Fire means a loss of oxygen, lots of toxic gasses and heat that has nowhere to escape to. Fire is also hard to prevent as ships get older. Wire insulation slowly breaks down and so on. At sea the air is intentionally dropped down from 21% O2 to as low as 18-19 % O2. Just enough to make it much more difficult for a fire to start but not so  low as to start giving people headaches. At the lower O2 levels a Bic lighter won't work, but a Zippo just barely will.
 
2013-03-15 07:02:22 PM  

palelizard: I understand the prison sentence, but what's the point of the $400 million?  He's never going to make that kind of money.


You attach judgement just in case he wins the lottery when he gets out of prison.
 
2013-03-15 07:04:04 PM  

factoryconnection: The ship was only accessible via one hatch in the front


So, thinking this through here . . .

Couldn't they just close the hatch and let the fire extinguish itself with a lack of oxygen?
 
2013-03-15 07:12:03 PM  

SteelCityKid: That was my brother's boat. There are no words to describe the level of stupidity Fury has attained.


Oh I'm sure his momma would swear to God he was a good boy who would never hurt anyone! Plus he just found Jesus.
 
2013-03-15 07:14:01 PM  

indarwinsshadow: No wonder squirrels love America. It's full of nuts.

[t2.gstatic.com image 348x145]


Know what Canada's full of?

www.back2stonewall.com
 
2013-03-15 07:21:49 PM  

mrmopar5287: factoryconnection: The ship was only accessible via one hatch in the front

So, thinking this through here . . .

Couldn't they just close the hatch and let the fire extinguish itself with a lack of oxygen?


Uuuuh, no.  It was in a shipyard availability--lots of stuff open that couldn't be accessed otherwise AND they needed to put it out as soon as possible to keep it from spreading and destroying even MORE shiat before the air would have run out.
 
2013-03-15 07:38:41 PM  

hasty ambush: I am surprised his union, yes he is was a union member, didn't try to get him off.


Fixed.

/ I'm assuming he can't make any dues payments in prison...
 
2013-03-15 07:43:02 PM  

Radioactive Ass: Marcus Aurelius: lelio: Has the Navy learned anything from this about how a single arsonist can destroy a billion dollar sub? I think that's the real story here.

99.99999% of that workforce takes immense pride in their work, and you can't very well supervise them all constantly.  And a US Navy warship is typically chock full of things that burn really well.  I'd say the story is that this has never happened before.

Boats have caught fire before and ended up being scrapped (I think the one before this one was the Bonefish). It is the worst casualty on a submarine (not flooding as one might expect, you can make it so that flooding is survivable up to a point but even a little fire can cause major problems very quickly). Fire means a loss of oxygen, lots of toxic gasses and heat that has nowhere to escape to. Fire is also hard to prevent as ships get older. Wire insulation slowly breaks down and so on. At sea the air is intentionally dropped down from 21% O2 to as low as 18-19 % O2. Just enough to make it much more difficult for a fire to start but not so  low as to start giving people headaches. At the lower O2 levels a Bic lighter won't work, but a Zippo just barely will.


I used to work with a guy that flew A-6's off the USS Forestal when the shiat came down in '67.  He was below decks somewhere and he said he thought the world was ending.  I cannot even imagine.
 
2013-03-15 08:04:06 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: I used to work with a guy that flew A-6's off the USS Forestal when the shiat came down in '67. He was below decks somewhere and he said he thought the world was ending. I cannot even imagine.


In the late 80's the navy spent ~$7 million on a fire simulator on the base in Groton Ct. Hull insulation (what the Miami had) and hydraulic oil mist fires were the two main ones. Full on firefighting gear like you would find on a boat and nothing was simulated (except the smoke). Real fires, real OBA's being lit off, water spraying everywhere, afff fire extinguishers slicking up the deck, dark tight spaces and thick smoke-like stuff (it worked like smoke but it wasn't smoke, hell if I know what it was made of though). It's highly monitored of course but you really do start to feel like it's the end of the world in there.
 
2013-03-15 08:08:38 PM  

ZMugg: I worked at PNS in the 80's, Shop 38 (outside machinist). Wonder what shop he worked for.


he should be put UNDER the jail.


He was 71. The same shop who has to do all the repainting and cleanup.
 
2013-03-15 08:33:26 PM  
The fine is no big deal; all he has to do is whore himself out to 8000000 fat chicks at $50 each.
/or 800000 really fat chicks at $500 each
 
2013-03-15 09:31:16 PM  
I was on duty the day this happened and got to see the reports as they came across our desk. I have friends that were there and risked their lives because of this guy.  He deserves much worse than he got.
 
2013-03-15 10:16:13 PM  
They were going for at least 35 for this guy who downloaded too many books from the digital library.
i.imgur.com
 
2013-03-15 10:46:39 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: I used to work with a guy that flew A-6's off the USS Forestal when the shiat came down in '67.


Yow, that looked really bad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_USS_Forrestal_fire


The rocket flew across the flight deck, striking a wing-mounted external fuel tank on an [1] aircraft No. 405, piloted by [2][6] The Zuni Rocket's warhead safety mechanism prevented it from detonating, but the impact tore the tank off the wing and ignited the resulting spray of escaping <a data-cke-saved-href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JP-5" title="JP-5" class="mw-redirect">JP-5 fuel, causing an instantaneous <a data-cke-saved-href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflagration" title="Conflagration">conflagration. Within seconds, other external fuel tanks on White's aircraft overheated and ruptured, releasing more jet fuel to feed the flames, which began spreading along the flight deck.
 
2013-03-15 10:47:11 PM  
I'm kind of surprised there wasn't some kind of system in place to protect $450 million dollars worth of submarine guts from a fire.
 
2013-03-16 12:32:43 AM  
$400M??

We could buy, like, five F-35s with that money!
 
2013-03-16 02:25:17 AM  
just another socialized work program for Electric Boat

Uh...so now building military equipment to defend the United States is socialistic.

OK, whatever.

:(
 
2013-03-16 03:45:00 AM  
www.wcsh6.com

I think we're lucky that all this guy did was take out a nuclear submarine.
 
2013-03-16 08:28:53 AM  

Gaylord Fister: We could buy, like, five F-35s with that money!


try about 3 and the down payment on a fourth
 
2013-03-16 08:35:04 AM  

doyner: mrmopar5287: factoryconnection: The ship was only accessible via one hatch in the front

So, thinking this through here . . .

Couldn't they just close the hatch and let the fire extinguish itself with a lack of oxygen?

Uuuuh, no.  It was in a shipyard availability--lots of stuff open that couldn't be accessed otherwise AND they needed to put it out as soon as possible to keep it from spreading and destroying even MORE shiat before the air would have run out.


Plus I'd imagine their first priority is to make sure there's no crew/workers trapped inside...slamming the hatch would pretty much doom them.
 
2013-03-16 09:02:02 AM  

Katolu: One Seawolf, the Carter, is surveillance only.


The Carter is a fun boat.

As far as the Miami goes, it's a mess. Several people at work are on the engineering team trying to plan the repairs, but the sequestration is pausing that effort.

Oh. And there is no scuttling screw on the bottom of the hull. There are several surprisingly large openings that in the past have been used to accidently scuttle boats at the dock, but none of them are designed to intentionally be used that way.
 
2013-03-16 09:56:05 AM  
He said he needed to go home because he was suffering from anxiety and had no more vacation or sick leave.

Talk about jumping out of the butter melter and into the fire
 
2013-03-16 12:52:01 PM  

LiberalEastCoastElitist: I'm kind of surprised there wasn't some kind of system in place to protect $450 million dollars worth of submarine guts from a fire.


Usually there is. It's called the ships crew. They are well trained to not only operate the ship but to also fight casualties in a rapid manner (and they had better be because there isn't going to be anyone else showing up to help them when things go south).

The thing is that a submarine undergoing a major refueling overhaul doesn't have a lot of those guys around. The reasons for that are numerous but that's how it is and has been for decades. When I got to my first boat back in the early 80's it was in the shipyard and was originally expected to be out of it in about 9 months (it was closer to 14 months but that's another story). The ships crew when I first got there totaled about 75 officers and enlisted, I was one of the first new people to show up, most of the rest of the crew had taken it into the shipyard over a year and a half earlier.. Note that that particular type of boat was intended to have a full complement of about 150-160 men when it was fully manned.

The remaining crews job is to watch over the repairs and to certify that they were done properly and to stand a skeleton watch in three duty sections (who mostly do security watches to make sure that nobody unauthorized gets below and a couple of roving fire and safety watches along with people who keep an eye on the reactor plus another guy on watch to handle things like the phones and yet another roving fire and security watch on the offsite barge where they have "Offices" (really just places where publications and a desk or three are kept for the people not on watch) and some berthing for the duty section). On a "Normal" day there may only be 5 crew members actually on board the boat at night and perhaps 20 during the day (the other 15 doing observation type stuff).

The rest of the crew is somewhere else. During the workday they are either on the barge digging into paperwork or out and about in the shipyard doing other ships related business. At night the off watch duty section is on the barge and the off-duty people are not even in the shipyard but in their "Homes" be it barracks or apartments or whatever else. The point being that they are not anywhere near close enough to the boat to fight a casualty like a fire.

One of the things that the shipyard takes over is firefighting responsibilities. Not the detection part of it, that's the job of the three or four crew members below decks but they also often have other things to do on top of watching out for fires. They will be aware of possible fire hazards and pay close attention to those evolutions but for arson they can be fairly easily avoided by someone who knows what they are doing.

But lets say that the fire is started and it takes a minute or two before it is detected. It's large enough that a couple of fire extinguishers don't work (and that's all that's available as the fire mains are all out of service and in parts strewn all over the shipyard) and the guy on watch has standing orders that if two extinguishers don't get the job done to call for backup. Now the shipyard fire dept has to be called, gear up, drive to the boat, clamber down the one or two hatches (that are probably fouled by any number of wires, hoses, ventilation ducts and so on not to mention the yardbirds running away from the smoke and fire) wearing full fire gear and get to the fire dragging fire hoses attached to the pier side water source. That's all before a drop of water is used on the fire.

It's no wonder that a fire can end up causing so much damage when the place with the fire contains multimillion dollar electronic systems (that all need to be replaced because the soot is highly corrosive to delicate electronic components that are custom made) and is full of piping and valves that all has to be torn apart and put back together again to make sure that the o-rings haven't melted. Then it all has to be re-tested and re-certified before it can go back out to sea.

All because some lazy idiot wanted to leave work early one day...
 
2013-03-16 01:01:10 PM  

whyaduck: Katolu: One Seawolf, the Carter, is surveillance only.

The Carter is a fun boat.

As far as the Miami goes, it's a mess. Several people at work are on the engineering team trying to plan the repairs, but the sequestration is pausing that effort.

Oh. And there is no scuttling screw on the bottom of the hull. There are several surprisingly large openings that in the past have been used to accidently scuttle boats at the dock, but none of them are designed to intentionally be used that way.


Back in the '60's there was one boat (Sargo I think) that was intentionally partially scuttled at the pier to put out an oxygen fire in the after torpedo room. The boat was submerged with the after hatch open to flood it.
 
2013-03-16 03:53:24 PM  
Radioactive Ass

From what you've said, It sounds like our shipyard fire suppression model is broken.
 
2013-03-16 04:49:37 PM  

studebaker hoch: Radioactive Ass

From what you've said, It sounds like our shipyard fire suppression model is broken.


It's not broken so much as the environment is hazardous and there's no reasonable way around it when you have an arsonist on the loose. Usually when any work is being done that has even the slightest chance of causing a fire there is someone from the ships crew standing right there with a fire extinguisher (two someones if it's at all possible for a fire to erupt on the other side of a bulkhead) but you can't twin up with every yard bird and follow them around the boat with a fire extinguisher. Nothing would get done because there wouldn't be any room to get work done, plus there aren't that many crew members available anyway.

Quite honestly in a case like this the shipyard should be eating the cost of the fire as it was caused by one of their people (and the navy signs over the majority of control over the ship to them). However this isn't a civilian shipyard like EB or NN (the only 2 civilian shipyards that construct boats today) but one owned by the navy so they'd really only be charging themselves for the repairs anyway.
 
2013-03-16 06:18:55 PM  
Radioactive Ass

What about having a two-man rule for the whole boat?
 
2013-03-16 10:30:06 PM  

studebaker hoch: What about having a two-man rule for the whole boat?


I'm not understanding what you mean. There are always at least 2 roving watches on board (one forward and one aft) in addition to a reactor watch (NRC required) and two topside watches for security reasons. Their main job in the shipyard includes being a fire and safety watch but they can't be everywhere at once. They can see when some work is getting set up and stop it if the proper safety precautions aren't taken care of but they can't rove and monitor a job at the same time. There are other guys available in the duty section but if you start having them live there there are going to be some serious problems with a bunch of things.

A 688 is 33' in diameter on the outside. You lose about 2' feet just in pressure hull and framing alone. that makes for a 31' inner diameter "pipe" to cram 3 levels of deck space (it's actually 4 levels because there's another bottom level of tanks, piping spaces and batteries). In other words it's cramped as it is. Add in 100 yardbirds and the crew (who would need to be berthed, bathed and fed) and pretty much nothing would get done without at least quadrupling the cost and time for turning it over.

The way that it's done separates the crew from the ship (they do their duty (and regular hours) days on a barge nearby that has berthing,, heads, office spaces, classrooms and a limited galley). They are there to support the overhaul as navy representatives.. In layman's terms they don't "Own" the ship, the shipyard does. They are the inspectors that verify that the yard did what it was supposed to do and they have a very good incentive to do so. They will be taking the boat out and down to test depth, it is literally their asses on the line. Most yardbirds not so much.

The two man rule (as defined in the navy anyway) applies to nuclear weapons which aren't there while in the shipyard.
 
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