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(AZ Family)   People living in Phoenix are mystified as to why someone living in Los Angeles would say Phoenix is a bad place to live. "I think jealousy is sort of an ugly thing"   (azfamily.com) divider line 114
    More: Obvious, Los Angeles, urban heat island effect, average surface temperature  
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3333 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Mar 2013 at 10:25 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-15 12:41:59 PM

tnpir: Oldiron_79: The only desert city worth living in is Vegas.

I can't imagine actually living in Vegas. That entire city is basically one gigantic beatdown 24 hours a days. Great place to visit, would NEVER live there.

But, if a Vegas farker can give a positive perspective on what it's like actually living in Vegas, I'd be interested in hearing it.


Well, it depends on if you are the exploiter or the exploited.

Just kidding, it's a completely miserable place to live.
 
2013-03-15 12:47:49 PM
I live in Los Angeles and truly have no idea why fools don't live near work/work near home.  My wife & I have NEVER commuted more than 10-20 minutes & always lived close to the subway-Metro-chingaderra-thingy.  My neighborhood has tons of places I walk to: 10+ bars, 2 movie theaters, 30+ food joints, 3 grocery stores, shopping out the yinyang, and amazing parks.
 
2013-03-15 12:48:36 PM
I've lived in both and LA isn't nearly as hot nor the general population quite as reactionary, hide-bound and intolerant.

/It would take a lot of money to get me back to either.
 
2013-03-15 12:50:34 PM
"I think jealousy is sort of an ugly thing," said Phoenician Joe Zemaitis when asked about the op-ed piece.

realhistoryww.com
 
2013-03-15 12:57:46 PM
Judging by their Law enforcement they both seem like terrible places to live.
 
2013-03-15 01:00:42 PM
It's not necessarily a bad thing. The less Los Angelesians in your town, the better.
 
2013-03-15 01:04:19 PM

walkerhound: vicioushobbit: Try growing up in Louisiana.

If the heavy wet heat doesn't get you, the swamp stank and bugs do.

We talking about the state or a friend of yours?


It describes both.
 
2013-03-15 01:06:01 PM

Ned Stark: ThatGuyGreg: First clue: you're in Arizona.

Yeah, but at least they aren't in LA.


There are some really really farking nice parts of LA.  And some really shiatty parts too.  Phoenix on the other hand ... does it really have any places nearly as nice as the nice parts of LA?  But it sure has the shiatty parts down.
 
2013-03-15 01:08:30 PM

CoonAce: I live in Los Angeles and truly have no idea why fools don't live near work/work near home.  My wife & I have NEVER commuted more than 10-20 minutes & always lived close to the subway-Metro-chingaderra-thingy.  My neighborhood has tons of places I walk to: 10+ bars, 2 movie theaters, 30+ food joints, 3 grocery stores, shopping out the yinyang, and amazing parks.


Because they want to live somewhere nice, near the ocean like Santa Monica, but the economy in Santa Monica (or Marina Del Rey) is tiny compared to downtown, so they have to commute.
 
2013-03-15 01:15:15 PM
Grew up in Southern California until my mid 20's. I've lived outside of Atlanta, Maryland and now reside about 25min east of Phoenix...

Is Phoenix a shiathole? Sure, but go 20-30 min in either direction and your golden. I'll take a 3,500 sq/ft house for 225k in a lush community filled with grassy parks over living in a 800 aq/ft craphole in LA.

The wife and I still have a lot of friends in OC but when we visit I realize why I would never go back.
 
2013-03-15 01:21:13 PM
So LA thinks it has water now? LOL
 
2013-03-15 01:22:00 PM

LadyBelgara: Well, I guess if 120 degree heat, old people and a raging hatred of brown people is your thing, you too would be confused as to why most people won't go anywhere near the state of Arizona, much less Phoenix.

The scary part is Phoenix is still better than Tucson.


Have you even lived in Phoenix? I lived there for only two years and in my experience, there was no "raging hatred of brown people." Whites and browns lived together relatively well. Aside from the horrible traffic and the 100+ temps nine months out of the year, it wasn't a bad place to live at all.
 
2013-03-15 01:23:07 PM
There is also, of course, the problem of water. In dystopian portraits of Phoenix's unsustainable future, water - or rather the lack of it - is usually painted as the agent of collapse. Indeed, the metropolitan area, a jumble of jurisdictions that includes Scottsdale, Glendale, Tempe, Mesa, Sun City, Chandler and 15 other municipalities, has tapped groundwater supplies at unsustainable rates.
All along, everyone knew that couldn't last, so in the early 1990s, a new bonanza called the Central Arizona Project (CAP) was brought on line - a river-sized, open-air canal supported by an elaborate array of pumps, siphons and tunnels to bring Colorado River water to Phoenix and Tucson.



I'm sorry, what were you saying LA?
static.ddmcdn.com
 
2013-03-15 01:23:33 PM

Ned Stark: ThatGuyGreg: First clue: you're in Arizona.

Yeah, but at least they aren't in LA.


Children, children! Please! There's no need to fight.

LA and Phoenix are both horrible cesspools scum and villainy.
 
2013-03-15 01:26:50 PM

spiderpaz: Ned Stark: ThatGuyGreg: First clue: you're in Arizona.

Yeah, but at least they aren't in LA.

There are some really really farking nice parts of LA.  And some really shiatty parts too.  Phoenix on the other hand ... does it really have any places nearly as nice as the nice parts of LA?  But it sure has the shiatty parts down.


Unless your pulling in $200k+ a year you aren't living anywhere near a "nice" part of LA. If you head down to OC, Irvine, Lake Forrest, etc, then it gets a little bit more reasonable but your still going to need to pull in six figures to have a decent home and quality of life.

Then again most farkers are happy with some Ramen Noodles and a Netflix account so what each individual considers a good quality of life will vary.
 
2013-03-15 01:37:31 PM

SouthParkCon: spiderpaz: Ned Stark: ThatGuyGreg: First clue: you're in Arizona.

Yeah, but at least they aren't in LA.

There are some really really farking nice parts of LA.  And some really shiatty parts too.  Phoenix on the other hand ... does it really have any places nearly as nice as the nice parts of LA?  But it sure has the shiatty parts down.

Unless your pulling in $200k+ a year you aren't living anywhere near a "nice" part of LA. If you head down to OC, Irvine, Lake Forrest, etc, then it gets a little bit more reasonable but your still going to need to pull in six figures to have a decent home and quality of life.

Then again most farkers are happy with some Ramen Noodles and a Netflix account so what each individual considers a good quality of life will vary.


Thing is, the ramen in l.a. is farking spectacular.

Pointing out that phoenix has no water source while living in l.a. take balls or idiocy.
 
2013-03-15 01:37:42 PM
ITT:  People from Buttfark-Middle-of-Nowhere telling everybody that Los Angeles and Phoenix are both horrible places to live.
 
2013-03-15 01:40:07 PM

Chastain86: ITT:  People from Buttfark-Middle-of-Nowhere who've lived in either or both places and moved away for a farking reason telling everybody that Los Angeles and Phoenix are both horrible places to live.


FTFY
 
2013-03-15 01:40:18 PM

SouthParkCon: spiderpaz: Ned Stark: ThatGuyGreg: First clue: you're in Arizona.

Yeah, but at least they aren't in LA.

There are some really really farking nice parts of LA.  And some really shiatty parts too.  Phoenix on the other hand ... does it really have any places nearly as nice as the nice parts of LA?  But it sure has the shiatty parts down.

Unless your pulling in $200k+ a year you aren't living anywhere near a "nice" part of LA. If you head down to OC, Irvine, Lake Forrest, etc, then it gets a little bit more reasonable but your still going to need to pull in six figures to have a decent home and quality of life.

Then again most farkers are happy with some Ramen Noodles and a Netflix account so what each individual considers a good quality of life will vary.


Know how i know you have no farking idea what you're talking about? Traffic sucks, transit sucks.  But this isn't even a competition.  World class city with world class entertainment, restaurants and museums.  The "nice" parts of phoenix look like the shopping malls all merged into one giant stucko piece of shiat.
 
2013-03-15 01:41:57 PM
Also, Dodgers, Clippers, Lakers and Kings > D-bags, coyotes, suns, and cardinals by 1000.
 
2013-03-15 01:42:04 PM
Watching LA and PHX have a slapfight is like watching a couple of baseball players go at it: mildly humorous at first but then you just start to feel bad for the total ineptitude. They're both cities in the middle of the desert (LA's just had more time to cover up the sand) and neither really has any reason to exist. If one wants to say the other is a worse place to live that's fine... but winning the argument still puts you in the bottom 10%.
 
TWX
2013-03-15 01:50:25 PM

Foundling: A Soviet sheriff, white supremacists, heat stroke, sun stroke, and charging fifty bucks for a burrito in the airport.
That is my impression of Phoenix.


Arpaio lives in Fountain Hills actually.  And unless he's on one of his kicks going after businesses that brown people work at, you're very unlikely to interact with the sheriff's office if you're in incorporated city limits.  Technically he does have jurisdiction, but every city or town except El Mirage either have their own police or have contracted an adjoining city to handle it (like Guadalupe using Tempe's police, Paradise Valley using Phoenix PD) so they don't tend to get involved in town.

The white supremacists are more of a problem in the poor neighborhoods and the outskirts of the city.  Yes, that means driving through their neighborhoods when going to the Renaissance Festival, but they can generally be avoided otherwise.

Heatstroke can be mitigated by drinking water and knowing when to go inside.

Sunstroke is solved by a technological innovation known as a hat.

And don't eat at the airport unless you're stuck for a layover.  If you want a good burrito, go to Señor Taco out at Power Road and McKellips.  If you want good Tex-Mex, go to Macayo's.

/lives in Tempe
//has an air conditioned garage
///likes watching snowbirds that were too slow to leave spontaneously combust
 
2013-03-15 01:51:39 PM

JayCab: Watching LA and PHX have a slapfight is like watching a couple of baseball players go at it: mildly humorous at first but then you just start to feel bad for the total ineptitude. They're both cities in the middle of the desert (LA's just had more time to cover up the sand) and neither really has any reason to exist. If one wants to say the other is a worse place to live that's fine... but winning the argument still puts you in the bottom 10%.


i realize that being from san francisco makes you superior to all, but among other industries l.a. has a rather gigantic port where all the chinese crap american's buy hits the ground and all the steel we recycle gets shipped back.
latimesblogs.latimes.com
 
2013-03-15 01:51:41 PM
i pay $700 a month for an almost 1,000 square foot apartment with a fabulous view.  i love when LA people come to visit and get all pissy.
 
2013-03-15 01:56:20 PM

TWX: If you want good Tex-Mex, go to Macayo's.


I amend my earlier statement about the Mexican food in Phoenix.  I would strangle a busload of nuns for some of Macayo's Baja Sauce.
 
2013-03-15 01:59:24 PM
They both suck, in different ways
 
2013-03-15 01:59:36 PM

chairmenmeow47: i pay $700 a month for an almost 1,000 square foot apartment with a fabulous view.  i love when LA people come to visit and get all pissy.


yeah, but do you have your own theme song?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b5LzCOc98E
 
2013-03-15 02:03:17 PM

DontMakeMeComeBackThere: "In Phoenix the convergence of heat, drought and violent winds is creating an ever-more-worrisome situation."

Not here it's not.  Sounds like someone is looking for page hits...or trying to discourage people from leaving LA (and California) in droves.


Article is written by an Arizonian 5th columnist working for people already living in Arizona who don't want California fruits and nuts invading any more than they already are.

Arizona is Teh Doom! Stay away if you value your sanity and life!!! Seriously!!
 
TWX
2013-03-15 02:04:56 PM

Teufelaffe: TWX: If you want good Tex-Mex, go to Macayo's.

I amend my earlier statement about the Mexican food in Phoenix.  I would strangle a busload of nuns for some of Macayo's Baja Sauce.


That was an awesome mental picture!
 
2013-03-15 02:05:30 PM

JayCab: Watching LA and PHX have a slapfight is like watching a couple of baseball players go at it: mildly humorous at first but then you just start to feel bad for the total ineptitude. They're both cities in the middle of the desert (LA's just had more time to cover up the sand) and neither really has any reason to exist. If one wants to say the other is a worse place to live that's fine... but winning the argument still puts you in the bottom 10%.


The strangest part is that Phoenix in 2008 looked a whole lot like LA did in the mid-50's, only with more strip malls. For all that everyone there seems to hate LA, the city is hellbent on becoming the next LA and repeating all the same mistakes that'll catch up in a few decades, only with minimal foreign culture mix to change up the strip mall fever. They hate each other because they're too similar.

They're even becoming a porn capital, just like the Valley.
 
2013-03-15 02:15:21 PM

GhettoWinter: chairmenmeow47: i pay $700 a month for an almost 1,000 square foot apartment with a fabulous view.  i love when LA people come to visit and get all pissy.

yeah, but do you have your own theme song?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b5LzCOc98E


i wrote a mario rap, does that count?

http://ivy.aholic.us/gallery/v/ivy/mc_schizzle__amp__lakitu_-_times_ al most_up__dirty_pipes_mix__mpeg.MP3.html
 
2013-03-15 02:21:19 PM
Phoenix is just way too f*cking hot, Tucson is too damn hot also but it is a nice town. If you get outside of those two metropolises there are some really nice places in southeast, eastern, and northern Arizona. LA sucks because traffic and it's full of Californians.
 
2013-03-15 02:21:47 PM

foxyshadis: JayCab: Watching LA and PHX have a slapfight is like watching a couple of baseball players go at it: mildly humorous at first but then you just start to feel bad for the total ineptitude. They're both cities in the middle of the desert (LA's just had more time to cover up the sand) and neither really has any reason to exist. If one wants to say the other is a worse place to live that's fine... but winning the argument still puts you in the bottom 10%.

The strangest part is that Phoenix in 2008 looked a whole lot like LA did in the mid-50's, only with more strip malls. For all that everyone there seems to hate LA, the city is hellbent on becoming the next LA and repeating all the same mistakes that'll catch up in a few decades, only with minimal foreign culture mix to change up the strip mall fever. They hate each other because they're too similar.

They're even becoming a porn capital, just like the Valley.


You're pretty much right on. Phoenix is l.a. without the patina of use. All of l.a.'s strip malls have been through 3-4 cycles of use often by 3-4 different nationalities. Makes for a more complex stew than phx has acquired since it is younger.

Regarding hating each other, that's pretty much a one way street. When I lived in phx everyone hated on l.a. now living in l.a. I would say no one gives a second thought to phx unless the suns are in town.
 
2013-03-15 02:21:52 PM
When the sleeper awakens then you will all pay.
 
2013-03-15 02:40:34 PM

brimed03: In Phoenix' defense: LA traffic; botched Botox lips; and endless, vapid self-centeredness.


So... Scottsdale with more cars?
 
2013-03-15 02:59:49 PM

JayCab: Watching LA and PHX have a slapfight is like watching a couple of baseball players go at it: mildly humorous at first but then you just start to feel bad for the total ineptitude. They're both cities in the middle of the desert (LA's just had more time to cover up the sand) and neither really has any reason to exist. If one wants to say the other is a worse place to live that's fine... but winning the argument still puts you in the bottom 10%.


Argueing on the interet is like competing in the special olympics even if you win you are still retarded
 
2013-03-15 03:03:43 PM

johnny queso: foxyshadis: JayCab: Watching LA and PHX have a slapfight is like watching a couple of baseball players go at it: mildly humorous at first but then you just start to feel bad for the total ineptitude. They're both cities in the middle of the desert (LA's just had more time to cover up the sand) and neither really has any reason to exist. If one wants to say the other is a worse place to live that's fine... but winning the argument still puts you in the bottom 10%.

The strangest part is that Phoenix in 2008 looked a whole lot like LA did in the mid-50's, only with more strip malls. For all that everyone there seems to hate LA, the city is hellbent on becoming the next LA and repeating all the same mistakes that'll catch up in a few decades, only with minimal foreign culture mix to change up the strip mall fever. They hate each other because they're too similar.

They're even becoming a porn capital, just like the Valley.

You're pretty much right on. Phoenix is l.a. without the patina of use. All of l.a.'s strip malls have been through 3-4 cycles of use often by 3-4 different nationalities. Makes for a more complex stew than phx has acquired since it is younger.

Regarding hating each other, that's pretty much a one way street. When I lived in phx everyone hated on l.a. now living in l.a. I would say no one gives a second thought to phx unless the suns are in town.


I grew up in the bay area and now live in LA, and I would say the same attitude is seen between SF and LA. In SF, everyone loves to hate on LA, but when I move down south the only thing I heard about SF was "Oh SF? Nice city, love to visit."

LA is so much more laid back and diverse than SF or PHX. I'm not just talking race, but diversity in culture, politics, interests, and career. I've met so much more of an array of people in So Cal in ten years than I did in twenty in the Bay Area. Still like to visit SF though, but not used to the cold anymore, unfortunately.
 
2013-03-15 03:08:40 PM
I've lived in downtown Phoenix for ten years now.  I've wanted to move out of the state for the last five.  The downtown crowd is great.  It's what I would describe as 'intimate'.  The best way I've heard downtown described to me was by a Californian neighbor.  He said that when he lived in San Francisco, and that they had 15 or so cool neighborhoods, so no one had a reason to leave their area.  In Phoenix, we only have 3 or so cool areas to hang out, so the people tend to intermingle more.

 
That being said, the people of this state outside of the core area really suck.  Between the poor education system, the major nut case religion, and easily scapegoated 'other' class of people.Most of the state if full retard.Since I work in the burbs, I see it all the crazy each day.Truly, this place is suburban chain hell.But I love it when my friends who live in our urban bubble leave the informed core for the wastelands.They're somehow always surprised to learn that they still live in Arizona.
 
2013-03-15 03:15:53 PM

TotallyHeadless: johnny queso: foxyshadis: JayCab: Watching LA and PHX have a slapfight is like watching a couple of baseball players go at it: mildly humorous at first but then you just start to feel bad for the total ineptitude. They're both cities in the middle of the desert (LA's just had more time to cover up the sand) and neither really has any reason to exist. If one wants to say the other is a worse place to live that's fine... but winning the argument still puts you in the bottom 10%.

The strangest part is that Phoenix in 2008 looked a whole lot like LA did in the mid-50's, only with more strip malls. For all that everyone there seems to hate LA, the city is hellbent on becoming the next LA and repeating all the same mistakes that'll catch up in a few decades, only with minimal foreign culture mix to change up the strip mall fever. They hate each other because they're too similar.

They're even becoming a porn capital, just like the Valley.

You're pretty much right on. Phoenix is l.a. without the patina of use. All of l.a.'s strip malls have been through 3-4 cycles of use often by 3-4 different nationalities. Makes for a more complex stew than phx has acquired since it is younger.

Regarding hating each other, that's pretty much a one way street. When I lived in phx everyone hated on l.a. now living in l.a. I would say no one gives a second thought to phx unless the suns are in town.

I grew up in the bay area and now live in LA, and I would say the same attitude is seen between SF and LA. In SF, everyone loves to hate on LA, but when I move down south the only thing I heard about SF was "Oh SF? Nice city, love to visit."

LA is so much more laid back and diverse than SF or PHX. I'm not just talking race, but diversity in culture, politics, interests, and career. I've met so much more of an array of people in So Cal in ten years than I did in twenty in the Bay Area. Still like to visit SF though, but not used to the cold anymore, unfortunately.


Inevitable response:
Because l.a. people are all self absorbed.
*the californians*

l.a. gets a bad rap. It has its problems like anywhere, and there are a farkload of people, but I have no real complaints other than traffic. And if your desired career is to design and build modern houses it is pretty much the best place to be.
 
2013-03-15 04:15:14 PM

Oldiron_79: The only desert city worth living in is Vegas Tucson.


FTFY
 
2013-03-15 04:16:15 PM

MyKingdomForYourHorse: In defense of Phoenix, the women there are excruciatingly better looking that much of the nation. I don't know what you guys do down there in Arizona, but damn you got some fine ass women.


If by "women" you mean ASU undergrads who wear tiny shorts all year long.
 
2013-03-15 04:16:49 PM

TWX: If you want good Tex-Mex, go to Macayo's.


uhh........what?  that's like saying, "if you want good Italian, go to Olive Garden" or "if you want good seafood, go to Red Lobster."


chairmenmeow47: i pay $700 a month for an almost 1,000 square foot apartment with a fabulous view.  i love when LA people come to visit and get all pissy.


I KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA.....

/no seriously, my church is across the street.
 
2013-03-15 04:19:11 PM
Having seen Phoenix only once, it struck me as being a 20-mile wide bowl of hot gravel. Window bars on every house. Spanish-speaking ability would be a must, in case someone yelled "Look out behind you!".
 
2013-03-15 04:24:56 PM
LadyBelgara:   The scary part is Phoenix is still better than Tucson.

You're just itching for a fight, aren't you?
 
2013-03-15 04:25:11 PM

TWX: Arpaio lives in Fountain Hills actually. And unless he's on one of his kicks going after businesses that brown people work at, you're very unlikely to interact with the sheriff's office if you're in incorporated city limits. Technically he does have jurisdiction, but every city or town except El Mirage either have their own police or have contracted an adjoining city to handle it (like Guadalupe using Tempe's police, Paradise Valley using Phoenix PD) so they don't tend to get involved in town.


I drive a taxi in Phoenix. The only place I ever see Arpaio's minions is in Guadalupe. And whenever I take someone to Tent City to do their time for a DUI.
 
2013-03-15 04:26:05 PM
LA has its downsides, but there are decent (and relatively affordable) places to live if you know where to look. And most of the people I knew when I lived there pretty much stuck to their own little pocket of town. A lot of people don't venture too far out of the "work - home - shopping" triangle. For some that triangle is large and they deal with shiatty traffic. For others, it's small and traffic is no biggie.

That said, SoCal is a great place with farked up politics and policies and WAY too many people.

And I'd rather live there than PHX any day of the week.
 
2013-03-15 04:33:43 PM
As a New Yorker, I always get a kick watching cities joust for 2nd best.

/trollface.jpg
 
TWX
2013-03-15 04:36:54 PM

rickythepenguin: TWX: If you want good Tex-Mex, go to Macayo's.

uhh........what?  that's like saying, "if you want good Italian, go to Olive Garden" or "if you want good seafood, go to Red Lobster."


You know that the original restaurant is still operating, and that it's still the company headquarters, don't you?

antidumbass: Having seen Phoenix only once, it struck me as being a 20-mile wide bowl of hot gravel. Window bars on every house. Spanish-speaking ability would be a must, in case someone yelled "Look out behind you!".


Knowing Spanish isn't very helpful. Maybe if you're driving around Scottsdale and need to be able to distinguish street names in McCormick Ranch, but most of the rest of the time I haven't found my piss-poor H.S. Spanish to be handy.

MacWizard: I drive a taxi in Phoenix. The only place I ever see Arpaio's minions is in Guadalupe. And whenever I take someone to Tent City to do their time for a DUI.


I'm not surprised. Guadalupe seems like an easy target, even though a lot of the population are several-generations American by birth. Very poor... Though the food at a particular Mexican restaurant in there was good, the one time I found the place.
 
2013-03-15 04:56:38 PM

TWX: rickythepenguin: TWX: If you want good Tex-Mex, go to Macayo's.

uhh........what?  that's like saying, "if you want good Italian, go to Olive Garden" or "if you want good seafood, go to Red Lobster."

You know that the original restaurant is still operating, and that it's still the company headquarters, don't you?

antidumbass: Having seen Phoenix only once, it struck me as being a 20-mile wide bowl of hot gravel. Window bars on every house. Spanish-speaking ability would be a must, in case someone yelled "Look out behind you!".

Knowing Spanish isn't very helpful. Maybe if you're driving around Scottsdale and need to be able to distinguish street names in McCormick Ranch, but most of the rest of the time I haven't found my piss-poor H.S. Spanish to be handy.

MacWizard: I drive a taxi in Phoenix. The only place I ever see Arpaio's minions is in Guadalupe. And whenever I take someone to Tent City to do their time for a DUI.

I'm not surprised. Guadalupe seems like an easy target, even though a lot of the population are several-generations American by birth. Very poor... Though the food at a particular Mexican restaurant in there was good, the one time I found the place.


I remember one of the first times I drove through Phoenix.  I didn't take a turn I needed to and ended up going through Guadalupe.  My friend looked around as we trundled through at the speed limit of 25mph and said, "How the hell did we end up in Mexico?"
 
2013-03-15 05:04:02 PM

TWX: You know that the original restaurant is still operating, and that it's still the company headquarters, don't you?


in fairness, macayo's isn't baaaaaaaaaaaad, there are just a ton of other places that are better.  maybe not the same ambience (carolina's near the ballpark, 7th and mojave i tink).  El Gallo Blanco (!), los dos molinos, secreto, barrio cafe.....hell i prefer manuel's and mama rosita's over macayo's.
 
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