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(BBC)   New Pope warns church they are in danger of being compassionate   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 41
    More: Followup, Vatican Radio, Castel Gandolfo, morning shows, direct access, First Hour, Jesuits, Sistine Chapel Mass, Catholic Church  
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13831 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Mar 2013 at 4:31 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-14 03:40:12 PM  
8 votes:
Not that there was much in the way of details, but it seems like he's saying that without their faith and devotion to God, all that is left is the compassion you'd find in any other service-based NGO, not that they'd be in danger of becoming compassionate.  As a church, they're supposed to be more than that.

But there is definitely compassion in spades for the poor in the Catholic Church: Catholic Charities, Catholic Relief Services, Cross Catholic Outreach, the Saint Vincent de Paul society, etc...  it isn't all fighting against gay marriage/adoption and contraception.
2013-03-14 04:40:07 PM  
5 votes:
If the guy were to come out in front of the crowd and confess his worst qualities, most heinous deeds, and impure thoughts - then maybe I could take his little showboating examples of humility seriously.

Christ requires humanity to exist - individual humans believing that he exists as a supernatural power.  When the Pope stands before a world's audience, he is looking at the near entirety of Christ, minus one piece, that being the Pope himself.  So, when he calls upon the world to confess to Christ, that call is meaningless unless he confesses himself to Christ's assemblage before him.

I wouldn't hold an individual to that standard.  They can confess to Christ privately, as that's the best they're ever really going to do.  However, there's only one pope in the entire universe.  And with the followers of the Catholic church playing the role of Trinity, the pope needs to man up and bare his soul.  That act would open the gates of heaven again to man.  But until it happens, the doors remain closed and the papacy remains a show choir with a bulletproof float.
2013-03-14 10:13:02 PM  
3 votes:

eggrolls: And aside from the few acres that constitute Vatican City, where ISN'T the church an NGO?


The Catholic Church sees itself as far more than just an NGO, it sees itself as the main vessel of spiritual salvation on Earth, given a mission by God Himself to save the souls of the human race.

As an institution they reach back 2000 years, and the legal sovereign status of the Vatican City in international law is NOT what they see as the bedrock of their power.

Pope Francis, in the full context of his statement, is talking about how he wants to ensure that the Church retains its spiritual role and is not just a benevolent NGO, to do more than just feed the hungry and shelter the cold and heal the weak, but to ensure their eternal salvation.
2013-03-14 06:01:57 PM  
3 votes:

digitalrain: I actually have some hope for PF1. Granted, the things he has done thus far may seem like small
PR gestures, but think about the guy's pre-papal history and they make sense. He was a farking
Archbishop who eschewed living in the Archbishop's palace in favor of living in a small one-room
apartment that was heated only by a small cookstove. He didn't even have his own car, preferring
instead to use public transportation. No servants, no fancy meals prepared by chefs.

So yeah, when the Pope forgoes traveling by Popemobile in favor of riding the bus with the other
Cardinals, when his first public appearance was marked by simplicity - a plain white cassock and
a cross - rather than the bejeweled and gold-threaded finery we associate with past Popes, I have
hope.


Yeah, yeah, yeah.  When he sells off the Church's billions in gold and antiquities and uses the money at the Church's disposal to do some 'real' good on the scale of what they're 'capable of accomplishing', then I'll give him props.

Until then, he's a CEO who eats his steak in the company cafeteria to show how 'down to earth' he is.

Oh yeah, and maybe you can think about returning the treasures you looted from a thousand pagan religions for the last 2000 years, while you're at it.
2013-03-14 05:22:28 PM  
3 votes:

RexTalionis: Mock the Catholic Church for its antiquated views on sexuality, contraception and the role of women with a history of coverups of pedophile priests, perhaps, but it's really wrong not to call it a compassionate organization.

The Catholic church, through its many charities and NGOs, do a lot of good in the world in providing for the poor and hungry. Unlike some of its evangelical Protestant cousins, the Catholic Church holds social justice as a goal and a virtue. Unlike the megachurches in the States where the whole point of the church is so you can send it money.


Basically, this.

It's been interesting to see over the past 24 hours all of these opinions of the Catholic church laid bare. I'm no Catholic (unless baptism counts) but I'm at least willing to give this Francis guy a shot. If nothing else, he'll probably push for a good amount of reform in the Vatican Curia, which may be a first step towards reform of the entire Church.

We're talking about a 2000-year-old institution here. Nothing changes overnight, for better or for worse.
2013-03-14 05:15:49 PM  
3 votes:
If we do not confess to Christ, what would we be?

Free?
2013-03-14 04:12:36 PM  
3 votes:

Weaver95: so if you are kind to the sick and poor but aren't a christian then...what? it doesn't count?


I vaguely remember from Catholic school that if you're not Catholic but still act in ways that are Christ-like, you can get into heaven.  It's possible that it's only the case for people who are baptized, though, I don't remember.  Good deeds gets you part of the way there.

For some other Christian branches, good deeds don't mean shiat... you've either accepted Christ as your savior, or you're going to hell.
2013-03-14 03:56:31 PM  
3 votes:
Pope Francis has warned the Catholic Church would become "a compassionate NGO" without spiritual renewal.
In a Sistine Chapel Mass with cardinals on his first day as Church leader, the pontiff said: "If we do not confess to Christ, what would we be?
"We would end up a compassionate NGO. What would happen would be like when children make sand castles and then it all falls down."


so if you are kind to the sick and poor but aren't a christian then...what?  it doesn't count?
2013-03-14 09:11:49 PM  
2 votes:

mongbiohazard: jso2897: Acharne: jso2897: I don't see the complication. I evaluate an institution same as I do a person. When you do good, I'll applaud and support you - when you do bad, I'll condemn and oppose you. What's the big quandary, here?

Have a look at Mother Theresa, the public opinion and adoration. Then compare it to the actual truth of how she lived her life, the conflict is impressive. That's the problem. Most people trust their religious leaders and cannot take themselves the needed step back to see how it is really 'good' or 'bad'. They are too used to being told and not analysing it themselves.

I know about all that - what's your point?

His point was that the Catholic church has a very strong propaganda machine which when coupled with many people's inherent bias to trust their familiar authority figures means few people are honestly doing what you say you do - even when they claim to be. If they really were, they would have little choice but to quit the church in disgust because objectively speaking the church as an organization is patently untrustworthy at the very, very least.


Well, I wouldn't know about that. I can only look at religious institutions from the point of view of an outsider, so I'm free to draw my own conclusions. I can judge deeds as good or bad - but as far as people or institutions, one of the "luxuries" of not being or believing in any god is not having to stand in judgment of other people, or their institutions. Kind of the moral equivalent of not having to get up on Sunday morning and go to church.
Ergo, from where I sit, they are do good when they do good, and bad when they do bad. I'll leave judging them as people or institutions to those who feel their moral authority extends to that.
I do find it amusing that you presume to explain to me how the Catholic church or any religious institution "works", as if I were somehow unaware of that. I haven't spent my life on Mars, in a cave, with my fingers in my ears, y'know.
2013-03-14 05:52:23 PM  
2 votes:
Hey Catholic Church, maybe you should consider melting down a few of your golden palaces and using the proceeds to feed the poor.
2013-03-14 05:40:45 PM  
2 votes:

jso2897: I don't see the complication. I evaluate an institution same as I do a person. When you do good, I'll applaud and support you - when you do bad, I'll condemn and oppose you. What's the big quandary, here?



A long history of lying to their host cultures, supporting murderous regimes, a habit of keeping their officers shielded from justice, stealing wealth from primitive cultures, manipulating all of their host societies with fear, barbaric views on women's health which have deeply negative reprecussions (most particularly in Africa right now), bigoted teachings about homosexuals, raping tens of thousands of children while quite effectively shielding the vast majority of rapists from justice, taking advantage of their status as a non-profit while simultaneously being one of the most wealthy land and business owners in the world, money laundering and graft to which they're effectively unable to be held to account for... etc. etc......

The quandry I'd say is that few actually DO hold them accountable for what they do. If we did hold them accountable then no one would remain a member of that particular church.
2013-03-14 05:39:20 PM  
2 votes:
I see the new Pope Frank gets his compassion from Mother "Suffering & Death From Overpopulation & Starvation is a Blessing While Contraception is a Curse & Unforgivable Sin" Theresa.
2013-03-14 05:34:55 PM  
2 votes:

spentmiles: If the guy were to come out in front of the crowd and confess his worst qualities, most heinous deeds, and impure thoughts - then maybe I could take his little showboating examples of humility seriously.

Christ requires humanity to exist - individual humans believing that he exists as a supernatural power.  When the Pope stands before a world's audience, he is looking at the near entirety of Christ, minus one piece, that being the Pope himself.  So, when he calls upon the world to confess to Christ, that call is meaningless unless he confesses himself to Christ's assemblage before him.

I wouldn't hold an individual to that standard.  They can confess to Christ privately, as that's the best they're ever really going to do.  However, there's only one pope in the entire universe.  And with the followers of the Catholic church playing the role of Trinity, the pope needs to man up and bare his soul.  That act would open the gates of heaven again to man.  But until it happens, the doors remain closed and the papacy remains a show choir with a bulletproof float.


I don't think he means confessing sins to Christ, but confessing to others that Jesus is Christ.  If they are doing good works, but not telling people about Jesus, they're just an NGO.  I see this all the time in non Catholic churches too.  Churches are doing outreaches to the poor & are afraid to tell them about Jesus. One lady told she would be afraid to tell people about Jesus.  I said, "Why? Are you afraid they'll laugh at you?  You're already a Christian..."

One lady I met hands out food to the homeless every Tuesday night.  She's always out there going into dangerous places and handing out food.  Our group bumps into hers often.  I looked up her group on the internet and found out she's a pastor and that a half dozen churches are supplying the food.  I  point out homeless that tell me that they want to be prayed for, but she's afraid to let them know.  You really have to press her to even find out that churches are involved.
2013-03-14 05:13:30 PM  
2 votes:

jayhawk88: Doesn't Purgatory factor into that somehow as well? If you're not a True Catholic but are still a good person, you just have to hang out in Heaven's waiting area for a few thousand years?


Yes, but I've also heard from Catholics that time doesn't operate the same way in the afterlife as it does on earth.  So I don't know how the math works.  If a thousand purgatory years is the equivalent of a million earth years, it sucks.  If it's the equivalent of a thousand seconds, then it's not so bad.  Plus, either way, you're supposed to go to heaven afterwards for eternity.

I went through 18 years of Catholic education (K-Masters degree), and I think I declared my agnosticism at around age 10, because too much of the logic struck me as half-baked.

For me, the question comes down to "If there is a God, regardless of our belief or lack of belief in him or his faith systems, how much of a dick is he?"  And for most religions, he's a dick to nonbelievers.  And my thinking is, if you're an omniscient, omnipotent being, there's no need to be a dick.
2013-03-14 11:57:10 PM  
1 votes:
That's right, get back to fearin' that God. We have no control over you jokers if you don't fear god and feel like you need to confess. More ceremony, more god waffles, get it through your head that your mortal soul is on the line.

Then donate.
2013-03-14 09:32:33 PM  
1 votes:

Infernalist: You used a lot of words to say "I don't give a shiat, I'm completely apathetic."


No, actually. I didn't say that, in any number of words. That I don't presume to pronounce any person or institution categorically good or evil, as a whole, does not express or imply any lack of moral judgment on my part. The willingness to pass judgment on others, and the ability to distinguish good deeds from bad are two separate and distinct human qualities.
2013-03-14 08:54:50 PM  
1 votes:
That brings up another challenge, name one act of compassion that can't be accomplished through purely secular means.
2013-03-14 08:18:11 PM  
1 votes:

jso2897: Acharne: jso2897: I don't see the complication. I evaluate an institution same as I do a person. When you do good, I'll applaud and support you - when you do bad, I'll condemn and oppose you. What's the big quandary, here?

Have a look at Mother Theresa, the public opinion and adoration. Then compare it to the actual truth of how she lived her life, the conflict is impressive. That's the problem. Most people trust their religious leaders and cannot take themselves the needed step back to see how it is really 'good' or 'bad'. They are too used to being told and not analysing it themselves.

I know about all that - what's your point?


His point was that the Catholic church has a very strong propaganda machine which when coupled with many people's inherent bias to trust their familiar authority figures means few people are honestly doing what you say you do - even when they claim to be. If they really were, they would have little choice but to quit the church in disgust because objectively speaking the church as an organization is patently untrustworthy at the very, very least.
2013-03-14 07:53:37 PM  
1 votes:

Acharne: jso2897: I don't see the complication. I evaluate an institution same as I do a person. When you do good, I'll applaud and support you - when you do bad, I'll condemn and oppose you. What's the big quandary, here?

Have a look at Mother Theresa, the public opinion and adoration. Then compare it to the actual truth of how she lived her life, the conflict is impressive. That's the problem. Most people trust their religious leaders and cannot take themselves the needed step back to see how it is really 'good' or 'bad'. They are too used to being told and not analysing it themselves.


I know about all that - what's your point?
2013-03-14 07:38:25 PM  
1 votes:
They cannot be an NGO, nongovernmental organization.  The Vatican is a sovereign state. The head of that state is the pope. Therefore they are a G.O..

/and as far as compassion goes? pfft.
2013-03-14 06:56:02 PM  
1 votes:

fusillade762: [upworthy-production.s3.amazonaws.com image 850x807]


Holy Crap! You mean the leader of a religion that doesn't believe in gay marriage might not belief in gay marriage!!!!
2013-03-14 06:39:22 PM  
1 votes:
upworthy-production.s3.amazonaws.com
2013-03-14 06:38:09 PM  
1 votes:

arethereanybeernamesleft: That, folks, is what we call heresy.


Faith without works is dead.

That's a quote from the book of James.
2013-03-14 06:24:53 PM  
1 votes:
People might start thinking your whole organization is based around archaic superstitions!
2013-03-14 06:24:01 PM  
1 votes:

Matthew Keene: Infernalist: using the proceeds to feed the poor.

You know, if you feed the poor, there'll just be more of 'em next year.


Ok, use the proceeds to give them aid to feed themselves.
2013-03-14 06:19:26 PM  
1 votes:

Stoker: And seriously, you can have Christ as your savior all day long, but if you are just full of hate and rage, you ain't getting into heaven."Ah yeah, let that man in just because he believes in you... then watch him abuse your home."Nope, Jesus or God is just not that stupid.


If they are full of hate and rage, are they actually a follower of christ, or just another person who attends a church and lies about their beliefs?
2013-03-14 06:14:05 PM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: Pope Francis has warned the Catholic Church would become "a compassionate NGO" without spiritual renewal.
In a Sistine Chapel Mass with cardinals on his first day as Church leader, the pontiff said: "If we do not confess to Christ, what would we be?
"We would end up a compassionate NGO. What would happen would be like when children make sand castles and then it all falls down."

so if you are kind to the sick and poor but aren't a christian then...what?  it doesn't count?


Yes, that's exactly what he's saying. Gotta have a middle man. What's the point of helping people? Then they just eat and have homes and stuff. You need to get them hooked on religion and keep them coming back generation after generation. To guarantee a constant supply of chil- I mean, people, a constant supply of people.
2013-03-14 05:59:13 PM  
1 votes:
Apparently all the folks waxing poetic yesterday about how he was so new and different and "transformational", etc. hadn't bothered to read up on what he actually thinks about Catholic doctrine.

No gays, No birth control, No abortion.

Sure he likes helping poor people and all, but see above for what he thinks is truly important in defining what a Catholic is and ain't.  Compassion, sure, for those who follow the rules.

Same pope, different name.
2013-03-14 05:51:56 PM  
1 votes:

thornhill: Maybe he should be thinking about why it is that people like to pool their money to help the needy but are drifting away from Catholic dogma.


i'd be more concerned with the growing heretical notions spawned by evangelical 'christian' sects here in the united states.  specifically, the pernicious 'prosperity gospel' doctrine, but any of the vaguely defined groups that define themselves as 'christian' yet show little or no actual respect for the teachings as listed by christ in the new testament.  not only are these groups and ideologies toxic to the Church's authority but they also have a rather large amount of money along with undo influence on the Republican party.  their heretical notions directly impact the policies of the US government, and indirectly influence the rest of the world.
2013-03-14 05:28:16 PM  
1 votes:
The Catholic church is very generous...if you're catholic or willing to let them convert you...
2013-03-14 05:26:01 PM  
1 votes:

WTF Indeed: It's almost like the man is saying that providing help without structure

prosthelytizing, especially in very poor areas or where people are desperate, doesn't help the people out of poverty it only eases the pain of poverty the church.

FTFY
2013-03-14 05:20:40 PM  
1 votes:

mnemonic device: Virtuous pagans are said to go to Limbo, which you don't get out of.  Purgatory is different.  Note however that my info is fourth-hand (or so) via Pournelle and Niven.


You only have to crawl past Satans frozen scrotum to a hole so you can get into Limbo, if Beni can do it, so can anyone else
2013-03-14 05:19:45 PM  
1 votes:

Nabb1: vpb: No, but much of it is, and most NGOs have all the compassion without the hate.

Whom does the Church "hate"?


Take a look at all the groups negatively affected by church practices. Add to that list people negatively affected when the church attempts to (and sometimes succeeds in) legislating morality. Finally, look at the church itself and take a look at the very congregants who wound up being harmed by the church.

That's who the church hates. You see, the church can pay lip service to "loving" everyone and not feeling a bit of hate, but their actions belie those sentiments. Remember, the golden rule isn't "Feel about others as you would have them feel about you," it's "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." They can have all the piety in the world, it is their actions that determine whom they do and don't hate.

/For the record, most lay Catholics are very awesome, loving people who actually do practice what Christ preached and are way better at it than I am. It's when you get into the church hierarchy that we start to see problems.
2013-03-14 05:09:47 PM  
1 votes:

WTF Indeed: It's almost like the man is saying that providing help without structure, especially in very poor areas, doesn't help the people out of poverty it only eases the pain of poverty.

Exactly.  What's the good of feeding the starving people in Africa if we don't try to convert them at the same time?  If you don't convert them, they'll just get hungry again later!
Also, if they're hungry enough, they'll agree to worship a Nike sneaker if you offer them some rice.
2013-03-14 05:09:40 PM  
1 votes:

RexTalionis: Unlike the megachurches in the States where the whole point of the church is so you can send it money.


And you think they don't get mocked, either?

I'd pay a church not to molest children, though, if that's what it took.  As it is, the Catholic Church is one of the richest in the world, with untold treasures that you won't be able to pry out o fits cold, dead hands.  It's a government, not a religion.  And doing some good things in no way excuses the ongoing atrocities in which it is complicit.
2013-03-14 05:06:11 PM  
1 votes:
Mock the Catholic Church for its antiquated views on sexuality, contraception and the role of women with a history of coverups of pedophile priests, perhaps, but it's really wrong not to call it a compassionate organization.

The Catholic church, through its many charities and NGOs, do a lot of good in the world in providing for the poor and hungry. Unlike some of its evangelical Protestant cousins, the Catholic Church holds social justice as a goal and a virtue. Unlike the megachurches in the States where the whole point of the church is so you can send it money.
2013-03-14 05:00:33 PM  
1 votes:
It's almost like the man is saying that providing help without structure, especially in very poor areas, doesn't help the people out of poverty it only eases the pain of poverty.
2013-03-14 05:00:14 PM  
1 votes:

RodneyToady: Good deeds gets you part of the way there.


That, folks, is what we call heresy.
2013-03-14 05:00:02 PM  
1 votes:

factoryconnection: But there is definitely compassion in spades for the poor in the Catholic Church: Catholic Charities, Catholic Relief Services, Cross Catholic Outreach, the Saint Vincent de Paul society, etc...  it isn't all fighting against gay marriage/adoption and contraception.


OH no. there's rape of children, and starvation because people are encouraged to breed, but not to get a good education and find a good job. Just breed kids, because they like kids. Breed them so they starve.
The greatest weapon of any political empire is controlling the food.
If you tell people to breed like that you are playing to the bad guys.
2013-03-14 04:50:26 PM  
1 votes:

algrant33: SOMEBODY TELL ME WHAT THE FARK IS AN "NGO"


*clap* *clap* NGO
*clap* *clap* NGO
*clap* *clap* NGO
And Bingo was his name-o


Non-governmental organization, which, by its strict definition, is the Church already.
2013-03-14 03:46:19 PM  
1 votes:
"We would end up a compassionate NGO


ecx.images-amazon.com
 
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