Acharne: jso2897: Acharne: mongbiohazard: jso2897: Acharne: jso2897: I don't see the complication. I evaluate an institution same as I do a person. When you do good, I'll applaud and support you - when you do bad, I'll condemn and oppose you. What's the big quandary, here?Have a look at Mother Theresa, the public opinion and adoration. Then compare it to the actual truth of how she lived her life, the conflict is impressive. That's the problem. Most people trust their religious leaders and cannot take themselves the needed step back to see how it is really 'good' or 'bad'. They are too used to being told and not analysing it themselves.I know about all that - what's your point?His point was that the Catholic church has a very strong propaganda machine which when coupled with many people's inherent bias to trust their familiar authority figures means few people are honestly doing what you say you do - even when they claim to be. If they really were, they would have little choice but to quit the church in disgust because objectively speaking the church as an organization is patently untrustworthy at the very, very least.Thank you. That's what I mean.Yes - but as a response to what I said - which it was - it's meaningless.No it wasn't. I understood it. So does Mong. When we explained it, you replied with a 'Hmmmm, I don't think so' and then pointed out it was silly to explain the church. I'm not really sure what the deal is here, but we're being pretty clear. I get your point, leave them alone and judge them on their actions. Mong and I were pointing out that while you might be able to do that, most people who are indoctrinated cannot. This is a valid distinction to make, one that Mong and I have made for you. What you do with it, that's up to you. Please don't call it meaningless though.
jso2897: No, no - I didn't mean that it was meaningless to you, or to Mong - only that it was meaningless as a response to what I originally said. And since your Weeners was a response to my post, I thought that might be relevant - not realizing that you and Mong were apparently using my remarks as some sort of placeholder in a conversation in which I was not actually supposed to be participating. You can avoid this confusion in the future by not quoting one of my posts when you actually wish to converse with someone else. I don't doubt that your list of grievances against the Catholic Church are meaningful to you - just not to me. Sorry for butting into you and mongs conversation by tricking you into quoting me as if you were addressing me. Also for failing to hate what you hate. Perhaps you should judge me to be a bad person.
WTF Indeed: Holy Crap! You mean the leader of a religion that doesn't believe in gay marriage might not belief in gay marriage!!!!
Acharne: Anyways. I have read your other posts to others too. It seems pretty clear that your not really trying to have a conversation with anyone about this issue. I get the impression you're more interested in pointing out your apathy about the church and this thread in general.
Phil Moskowitz: That's right, get back to fearin' that God. We have no control over you jokers if you don't fear god and feel like you need to confess. More ceremony, more god waffles, get it through your head that your mortal soul is on the line.Then donate.
jso2897: Acharne: Anyways. I have read your other posts to others too. It seems pretty clear that your not really trying to have a conversation with anyone about this issue. I get the impression you're more interested in pointing out your apathy about the church and this thread in general.Ok - that clarifies it - you simply misunderstand my position. I am not apathetic toward the church - it is a 2000 year-old institution that today comprises about a billion and a half of my fellow human beings. I am ambivalent toward the church. I perceive it as both good and bad, benevolent and malevolent - but by no means insignificant. And I perceive almost ALL institutions and people as such.The fact that I am a natural born heathen myself doesn't inform me to dismiss faith and those who hold it as irrelevant - the catholic church is still a powerful force in our world, and one that may well adapt and survive for a long time to come.But in light of what I feel about the matter, I think you can understand why merely enumerating the alleged transgressions of the church doesn't speak effectively to my inability to categorically pass judgment on such a large, long-lived, and complex institution.And for the record - I don't feel morally superior to anybody. As a moral judge, I would hold myself to be woefully inadequate - which was kind of my entire point. And I wouldn't waste your time if I were disinterested in conversing with you - that's the only reason I responded to you to begin with.
fifthhorseman: jso2897: fifthhorseman: I thought this was the most interesting bit in the article: "A visit to his predecessor Benedict XVI at his retreat at Castel Gandolfo outside Rome is also planned, but will not take place in the next couple of days, Father Lombardi said. The visit to Benedict is important, correspondents say, as the existence of a living retired pope has prompted fears of a possible rival power."POPE FIGHT!I don't see it being much of a fight. Benedict still has a devastating left hook, but his timing is shot, and his footwork has suffered badly in recent years. Francis has the youth, the speed, and the reach. No contest.Francis only has one lung. No staying power. If Benedict ropepope-a-dopes him, Francis goes down in the 5th.
cloud_van_dame: Faith without works is dead.
arethereanybeernamesleft: Indeed. You do good things because you're a Christian. You don't do them to become a Christian. Not even a little. As a result, in no way, ever, will doing good works get you "part the way there."
ewurm: The most awful institution in the history of mankind. Al-Qaeda isn't even close. Absolutely opprobrious doctrine put forth by scrofulous people. Mankind will benefit greatly by disavowing the sinister virgin cult.
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