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(BBC)   New Pope warns church they are in danger of being compassionate   (bbc.co.uk ) divider line
    More: Followup, Vatican Radio, Castel Gandolfo, morning shows, direct access, First Hour, Jesuits, Sistine Chapel Mass, Catholic Church  
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13837 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Mar 2013 at 4:31 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-14 05:19:40 PM  

Sir Not Sure The Unscannable: If we do not confess to Christ, what would we be?

Free?


HA!

/nice.
 
2013-03-14 05:19:45 PM  

Nabb1: vpb: No, but much of it is, and most NGOs have all the compassion without the hate.

Whom does the Church "hate"?


Take a look at all the groups negatively affected by church practices. Add to that list people negatively affected when the church attempts to (and sometimes succeeds in) legislating morality. Finally, look at the church itself and take a look at the very congregants who wound up being harmed by the church.

That's who the church hates. You see, the church can pay lip service to "loving" everyone and not feeling a bit of hate, but their actions belie those sentiments. Remember, the golden rule isn't "Feel about others as you would have them feel about you," it's "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." They can have all the piety in the world, it is their actions that determine whom they do and don't hate.

/For the record, most lay Catholics are very awesome, loving people who actually do practice what Christ preached and are way better at it than I am. It's when you get into the church hierarchy that we start to see problems.
 
2013-03-14 05:20:40 PM  

mnemonic device: Virtuous pagans are said to go to Limbo, which you don't get out of.  Purgatory is different.  Note however that my info is fourth-hand (or so) via Pournelle and Niven.


You only have to crawl past Satans frozen scrotum to a hole so you can get into Limbo, if Beni can do it, so can anyone else
 
2013-03-14 05:21:52 PM  

Infernalist: Exactly.  What's the good of feeding the starving people in Africa if we don't try to convert them at the same time?  If you don't convert them, they'll just get hungry again later!
Also, if they're hungry enough, they'll agree to worship a Nike sneaker if you offer them some rice.


I'm guessing you don't know how Catholic Charities work.
 
2013-03-14 05:22:28 PM  

RexTalionis: Mock the Catholic Church for its antiquated views on sexuality, contraception and the role of women with a history of coverups of pedophile priests, perhaps, but it's really wrong not to call it a compassionate organization.

The Catholic church, through its many charities and NGOs, do a lot of good in the world in providing for the poor and hungry. Unlike some of its evangelical Protestant cousins, the Catholic Church holds social justice as a goal and a virtue. Unlike the megachurches in the States where the whole point of the church is so you can send it money.


Basically, this.

It's been interesting to see over the past 24 hours all of these opinions of the Catholic church laid bare. I'm no Catholic (unless baptism counts) but I'm at least willing to give this Francis guy a shot. If nothing else, he'll probably push for a good amount of reform in the Vatican Curia, which may be a first step towards reform of the entire Church.

We're talking about a 2000-year-old institution here. Nothing changes overnight, for better or for worse.
 
2013-03-14 05:23:12 PM  

Marine1: We're talking about a 2000-year-old institution here. Nothing changes overnight, for better or for worse.


Plenary indulgences for all!
 
2013-03-14 05:25:25 PM  

Infernalist: if they're hungry enough, they'll agree to worship a Nike sneaker


xroads.virginia.edu
 
2013-03-14 05:26:01 PM  

WTF Indeed: It's almost like the man is saying that providing help without structure prosthelytizing, especially in very poor areas or where people are desperate, doesn't help the people out of poverty it only eases the pain of poverty the church.


FTFY
 
2013-03-14 05:27:05 PM  

mnemonic device: jayhawk88: Doesn't Purgatory factor into that somehow as well? If you're not a True Catholic but are still a good person, you just have to hang out in Heaven's waiting area for a few thousand years?

Virtuous pagans are said to go to Limbo, which you don't get out of.  Purgatory is different.  Note however that my info is fourth-hand (or so) via Pournelle and Niven.


Speaking of purgatory, Fark has had 7, count 'em, SEVEN pope threads today, and not one about the death of Clive Burr yesterday.  Somebody doesn't have their priorities straight.
 
2013-03-14 05:27:22 PM  

soporific: /For the record, most lay Catholics are very awesome, loving people who actually do practice what Christ preached and are way better at it than I am. It's when you get into the church hierarchy that we start to see problems.


The catholic church probably has the same problem as most organizations, people are promoted to prominence on both who they know, and what they did with them.

At least it ain't back to nobles paying for sons to have positions in the church
 
2013-03-14 05:28:16 PM  
The Catholic church is very generous...if you're catholic or willing to let them convert you...
 
2013-03-14 05:28:25 PM  
I don't see the complication. I evaluate an institution same as I do a person. When you do good, I'll applaud and support you - when you do bad, I'll condemn and oppose you. What's the big quandary, here?
 
2013-03-14 05:30:54 PM  

Marine1: We're talking about a 2000-year-old institution here. Nothing changes overnight, for better or for worse.


Not quite "overnight," but Vatican II changed things pretty quickly.
 
2013-03-14 05:32:53 PM  

RodneyToady: Marine1: We're talking about a 2000-year-old institution here. Nothing changes overnight, for better or for worse.

Not quite "overnight," but Vatican II changed things pretty quickly.


True. It'll be interesting to see if Frank calls another council, or if someone does within the next, eh, 20 years.
 
2013-03-14 05:34:55 PM  

spentmiles: If the guy were to come out in front of the crowd and confess his worst qualities, most heinous deeds, and impure thoughts - then maybe I could take his little showboating examples of humility seriously.

Christ requires humanity to exist - individual humans believing that he exists as a supernatural power.  When the Pope stands before a world's audience, he is looking at the near entirety of Christ, minus one piece, that being the Pope himself.  So, when he calls upon the world to confess to Christ, that call is meaningless unless he confesses himself to Christ's assemblage before him.

I wouldn't hold an individual to that standard.  They can confess to Christ privately, as that's the best they're ever really going to do.  However, there's only one pope in the entire universe.  And with the followers of the Catholic church playing the role of Trinity, the pope needs to man up and bare his soul.  That act would open the gates of heaven again to man.  But until it happens, the doors remain closed and the papacy remains a show choir with a bulletproof float.


I don't think he means confessing sins to Christ, but confessing to others that Jesus is Christ.  If they are doing good works, but not telling people about Jesus, they're just an NGO.  I see this all the time in non Catholic churches too.  Churches are doing outreaches to the poor & are afraid to tell them about Jesus. One lady told she would be afraid to tell people about Jesus.  I said, "Why? Are you afraid they'll laugh at you?  You're already a Christian..."

One lady I met hands out food to the homeless every Tuesday night.  She's always out there going into dangerous places and handing out food.  Our group bumps into hers often.  I looked up her group on the internet and found out she's a pastor and that a half dozen churches are supplying the food.  I  point out homeless that tell me that they want to be prayed for, but she's afraid to let them know.  You really have to press her to even find out that churches are involved.
 
2013-03-14 05:35:49 PM  

CygnusDarius: algrant33: SOMEBODY TELL ME WHAT THE FARK IS AN "NGO"


*clap* *clap* NGO
*clap* *clap* NGO
*clap* *clap* NGO
And Bingo was his name-o

Non-governmental organization, which, by its strict definition, is the Church already.


Are you sure on that one? Religious aspect aside, the Vatican is a sovereign nation, with the pope as head of state.
 
2013-03-14 05:35:55 PM  

SultanofSchwing: The Catholic church is very generous...if you're catholic or willing to let them convert you...


Always convert to the religion giving away the most free shiat.
 
2013-03-14 05:39:20 PM  
I see the new Pope Frank gets his compassion from Mother "Suffering & Death From Overpopulation & Starvation is a Blessing While Contraception is a Curse & Unforgivable Sin" Theresa.
 
2013-03-14 05:40:16 PM  

Felix_T_Cat: I don't think he means confessing sins to Christ, but confessing to others that Jesus is Christ.  If they are doing good works, but not telling people about Jesus, they're just an NGO.  I see this all the time in non Catholic churches too.  Churches are doing outreaches to the poor & are afraid to tell them about Jesus. One lady told she would be afraid to tell people about Jesus.  I said, "Why? Are you afraid they'll laugh at you?  You're already a Christian..."One lady I met hands out food to the homeless every Tuesday night.  She's always out there going into dangerous places and handing out food.  Our group bumps into hers often.  I looked up her group on the internet and found out she's a pastor and that a half dozen churches are supplying the food.  I  point out homeless that tell me that they want to be prayed for, but she's afraid to let them know.  You really have to press her to even find out that churches are involved.


That's odd, I'd be interested to know the reasoning to be silent on that they're "Christian"

Maybe cause  it's not the glamor of going to a foreign country and helping those poor ign'ant savages who ain't get jesus

Maybe it's to avoid having someone come directly to their church and ask for help?

Sometimes the reasons folks do actions or don't do them are as or more interesting then the actions themselves
 
2013-03-14 05:40:45 PM  

jso2897: I don't see the complication. I evaluate an institution same as I do a person. When you do good, I'll applaud and support you - when you do bad, I'll condemn and oppose you. What's the big quandary, here?



A long history of lying to their host cultures, supporting murderous regimes, a habit of keeping their officers shielded from justice, stealing wealth from primitive cultures, manipulating all of their host societies with fear, barbaric views on women's health which have deeply negative reprecussions (most particularly in Africa right now), bigoted teachings about homosexuals, raping tens of thousands of children while quite effectively shielding the vast majority of rapists from justice, taking advantage of their status as a non-profit while simultaneously being one of the most wealthy land and business owners in the world, money laundering and graft to which they're effectively unable to be held to account for... etc. etc......

The quandry I'd say is that few actually DO hold them accountable for what they do. If we did hold them accountable then no one would remain a member of that particular church.
 
2013-03-14 05:41:29 PM  
I don't get it.  Why didn't he just quote Matthew 7:26-27?
 
2013-03-14 05:42:00 PM  

RexTalionis: Mock the Catholic Church for its antiquated views on sexuality, contraception and the role of women with a history of coverups of pedophile priests, perhaps, but it's really wrong not to call it a compassionate organization.

The Catholic church, through its many charities and NGOs, do a lot of good in the world in providing for the poor and hungry. Unlike some of its evangelical Protestant cousins, the Catholic Church holds social justice as a goal and a virtue. Unlike the megachurches in the States where the whole point of the church is so you can send it money.


The Vatican sure has a lot of flashy stuff ... kind of like the televangelists with the golden thrones. Who pays for those red Pope shoes and big hats?
 
2013-03-14 05:43:15 PM  
I'm still sad we don't have a Pope Dolan....not for his even crazier views, but because it would have been decades of hilarious headlines.
 
2013-03-14 05:44:10 PM  

Egalitarian: Who pays for those red Pope shoes and big hats?


Props leftover from the 'Wizard of Oz.'
 
2013-03-14 05:44:12 PM  
This guy is turning out to be a real fiscal conservative.  Not only did he shun the limo and pay his hotel bill buty he, also, made the papal party BOYB - Bring your own boy.
 
2013-03-14 05:44:18 PM  

festoon: I see the new Pope Frank gets his compassion from Mother "Suffering & Death From Overpopulation & Starvation is a Blessing While Contraception is a Curse & Unforgivable Sin" Theresa.



Wonder if when his diary is released, many years after his death, we'll find out he was an atheist too but too gutless to do anything but keep the facade up. That was kind of the ultimate slap in the face from Mother Theresa.
 
2013-03-14 05:44:31 PM  

Egalitarian: The Vatican sure has a lot of flashy stuff ... kind of like the televangelists with the golden thrones. Who pays for those red Pope shoes and big hats?


I think it's kinda the same deal as when companies used to give merchandise to game shows for "promotional considerations".

} Dicker & Dicker of Beverly Hills
 
2013-03-14 05:46:27 PM  
Maybe he should be thinking about why it is that people like to pool their money to help the needy but are drifting away from Catholic dogma.
 
2013-03-14 05:48:57 PM  

boinkingbill: This guy is turning out to be a real fiscal conservative.  Not only did he shun the limo and pay his hotel bill buty he, also, made the papal party BOYB - Bring your own boy.


Ouch!
 
2013-03-14 05:49:02 PM  

RodneyToady: Weaver95: so if you are kind to the sick and poor but aren't a christian then...what? it doesn't count?

I vaguely remember from Catholic school that if you're not Catholic but still act in ways that are Christ-like, you can get into heaven.  It's possible that it's only the case for people who are baptized, though, I don't remember.  Good deeds gets you part of the way there.

For some other Christian branches, good deeds don't mean shiat... you've either accepted Christ as your savior, or you're going to hell.


Okay.

In Catholic belief, if you die without baptism, the Church cannot guarantee you will to get into heaven.  The old concept of "limbo" (no longer officially in use) basically said that virtuous unbaptized individuals were at God's mercy, the Church would not make an official statement of them being in Heaven or Hell.  Now they don't call it "limbo" and merely say its up to God's mercy and its beyond their jurisdiction.

The point of baptism is forgiveness for Original Sin, the idea that we are all born carrying the guilt for Adam and Eve's sin in Eden, and without forgiveness for that sin, we can still be separated from Divine Grace (i.e. go to Hell).  IIRC the only person born without Original Sin after Eden was Mary (the Immaculate Conception), and thus Jesus was not subject to it because his own mother did not have Original Sin.

However, if you are baptized in a valid fashion (basically the baptism is performed by a validly baptized individual in the name of the father, son and holy spirit) then you will go to Heaven as long as you have no Mortal Sins on your soul.  Mortal Sins are the big ones, major sins that make you hellbound.  The point of the sacrament of reconciliation (i.e. confession) is forgiveness of sins, including mortal ones, by repenting them to a priest and performing penance for your sins.

However, it is theoretically possible to achieve penance for mortal sins without a priest, but it would require a true and deep repentance for the sin and deep love of God.  Basically you have to genuinely be deeply sorry for it and want forgiveness and atonement, and try to make amends.

Basically, if you were baptized as an infant and didn't even know it, and lived a virtuous and good life and never committed any really major sins, even if you weren't a practicing Catholic, or even Christian, you could go to Heaven.

Even by Catholic theology, it's possible for Protestants (or anybody else baptized, Catholics recognize most other denominations baptisms except Mormons, saying that Mormons essentially worship a different deity, since their definition of God is so radically different) to go to Heaven, as long as they've never committed a mortal sin or if they had they had a deep and genuine repentance for it between them and God.

Infants are typically baptized when several days or weeks old.  Thus, they can be baptized without understanding or consenting.  One of the points of a Godfather or Godmother is to consent on behalf of the child, speaking in lieu of the Holy Spirit.

One of the big points of contention in the Protestant Reformation was the idea that for a baptism to be valid it must be performed on somebody who is old enough to know what it means, and choose to receive it.  That was the dawn of the anabaptist movement, which later became the Baptist Church.
 
2013-03-14 05:49:42 PM  

MBooda: I don't get it.  Why didn't he just quote Matthew 7:26-27?


Well, from what I understand he was at odds with other Jesuits in South America because they wanted the clergy to advocate for actual change in the societies they're in to reduce poverty and he opposed that. He just wanted to tell everyone to treat the poor nicer when you meet them, so that particular quote is kind of funny in context.

Why put those words in to practice when poverty is such a valuable tool for the church?
 
2013-03-14 05:51:56 PM  

thornhill: Maybe he should be thinking about why it is that people like to pool their money to help the needy but are drifting away from Catholic dogma.


i'd be more concerned with the growing heretical notions spawned by evangelical 'christian' sects here in the united states.  specifically, the pernicious 'prosperity gospel' doctrine, but any of the vaguely defined groups that define themselves as 'christian' yet show little or no actual respect for the teachings as listed by christ in the new testament.  not only are these groups and ideologies toxic to the Church's authority but they also have a rather large amount of money along with undo influence on the Republican party.  their heretical notions directly impact the policies of the US government, and indirectly influence the rest of the world.
 
2013-03-14 05:52:23 PM  
Hey Catholic Church, maybe you should consider melting down a few of your golden palaces and using the proceeds to feed the poor.
 
2013-03-14 05:54:24 PM  

Infernalist: using the proceeds to feed the poor.


You know, if you feed the poor, there'll just be more of 'em next year.
 
2013-03-14 05:54:49 PM  

RodneyToady: Weaver95: so if you are kind to the sick and poor but aren't a christian then...what? it doesn't count?

I vaguely remember from Catholic school that if you're not Catholic but still act in ways that are Christ-like, you can get into heaven.  It's possible that it's only the case for people who are baptized, though, I don't remember.  Good deeds gets you part of the way there.

For some other Christian branches, good deeds don't mean shiat... you've either accepted Christ as your savior, or you're going to hell.


And.its.all.bollocks.
 
2013-03-14 05:56:23 PM  
Felix_T_Cat: I don't think he means confessing sins to Christ, but confessing to others that Jesus is Christ.  If they are doing good works, but not telling people about Jesus, they're just an NGO.  I see this all the time in non Catholic churches too.  Churches are doing outreaches to the poor & are afraid to tell them about Jesus. One lady told she would be afraid to tell people about Jesus.  I said, "Why? Are you afraid they'll laugh at you?  You're already a Christian..."

One lady I met hands out food to the homeless every Tuesday night.  She's always out there going into dangerous places and handing out food.  Our group bumps into hers often.  I looked up her group on the internet and found out she's a pastor and that a half dozen churches are supplying the food.  I  point out homeless that tell me that they want to be prayed for, but she's afraid to let them know.  You really have to press her to even find ...


There's two reasons I can think of:

1) The potential for religion hate as seen in your typical Fark religion thread out there in the real world
2) Trying to distance yourself or your group from other people/groups that are total douches about pushing their religious agenda, or those that are assholes to everyone but it's all good because they'll be forgiven later.

If it were me it'd be the second reason, not wanting to be lumped in with all the loud mouthed, hateful ass-munches that carry on under the banner of God/Jesus.
 
2013-03-14 05:57:40 PM  
I actually have some hope for PF1. Granted, the things he has done thus far may seem like small
PR gestures, but think about the guy's pre-papal history and they make sense. He was a farking
Archbishop who eschewed living in the Archbishop's palace in favor of living in a small one-room
apartment that was heated only by a small cookstove. He didn't even have his own car, preferring
instead to use public transportation. No servants, no fancy meals prepared by chefs.

So yeah, when the Pope forgoes traveling by Popemobile in favor of riding the bus with the other
Cardinals, when his first public appearance was marked by simplicity - a plain white cassock and
a cross - rather than the bejeweled and gold-threaded finery we associate with past Popes, I have
hope.
 
2013-03-14 05:59:13 PM  
Apparently all the folks waxing poetic yesterday about how he was so new and different and "transformational", etc. hadn't bothered to read up on what he actually thinks about Catholic doctrine.

No gays, No birth control, No abortion.

Sure he likes helping poor people and all, but see above for what he thinks is truly important in defining what a Catholic is and ain't.  Compassion, sure, for those who follow the rules.

Same pope, different name.
 
2013-03-14 06:01:57 PM  

digitalrain: I actually have some hope for PF1. Granted, the things he has done thus far may seem like small
PR gestures, but think about the guy's pre-papal history and they make sense. He was a farking
Archbishop who eschewed living in the Archbishop's palace in favor of living in a small one-room
apartment that was heated only by a small cookstove. He didn't even have his own car, preferring
instead to use public transportation. No servants, no fancy meals prepared by chefs.

So yeah, when the Pope forgoes traveling by Popemobile in favor of riding the bus with the other
Cardinals, when his first public appearance was marked by simplicity - a plain white cassock and
a cross - rather than the bejeweled and gold-threaded finery we associate with past Popes, I have
hope.


Yeah, yeah, yeah.  When he sells off the Church's billions in gold and antiquities and uses the money at the Church's disposal to do some 'real' good on the scale of what they're 'capable of accomplishing', then I'll give him props.

Until then, he's a CEO who eats his steak in the company cafeteria to show how 'down to earth' he is.

Oh yeah, and maybe you can think about returning the treasures you looted from a thousand pagan religions for the last 2000 years, while you're at it.
 
2013-03-14 06:03:21 PM  
To be fair, there are some problems with NGOs, or should I say, there are some problematic NGOs.

1) NGOs that are outright scams to make money for their founders/top execs
2) NGOs that are really poorly-disguised political operators
3) NGOs that are scammed by locals
4) NGOs that have good intentions but produce poor results
 
2013-03-14 06:06:16 PM  
We either need to dismantle the Catholic Church and say "FU(K ALL YOU INDIGENT STRIGHT BASTARDS WHO DEPEND ON THIS" Or we need an anti-Catholic gay church in addition to he anti-gay Catholic church to help out poor gay people. Because I can tell neither side likes the other enough to join forces for the good of both.
 
2013-03-14 06:08:48 PM  

Egalitarian: To be fair, there are some problems with NGOs, or should I say, there are some problematic NGOs.

1) NGOs that are outright scams to make money for their founders/top execs
2) NGOs that are really poorly-disguised political operators
3) NGOs that are scammed by locals
4) NGOs that have good intentions but produce poor results


...and quite ironically, the Catholic Church falls under all four categories.
 
2013-03-14 06:09:23 PM  

factoryconnection: Not that there was much in the way of details, but it seems like he's saying that without their faith and devotion to God, all that is left is the compassion you'd find in any other service-based NGO, not that they'd be in danger of becoming compassionate.  As a church, they're supposed to be more than that.

But there is definitely compassion in spades for the poor in the Catholic Church: Catholic Charities, Catholic Relief Services, Cross Catholic Outreach, the Saint Vincent de Paul society, etc...  it isn't all fighting against gay marriage/adoption and contraception.

-=-
It isn't all, but it is the bad part of what they do. Not very appealing, and so.... medieval to me.

And seriously, you can have Christ as your savior all day long, but if you are just full of hate and rage, you ain't getting into heaven.
"Ah yeah, let that man in just because he believes in you... then watch him abuse your home."
Nope, Jesus or God is just not that stupid.
 
2013-03-14 06:11:15 PM  
It isn't all, but it is the bad part of what they do. Not very appealing, and so.... medieval to me.
-------------------------------------------
And seriously, you can have Christ as your savior all day long, but if you are just full of hate and rage, you ain't getting into heaven.
"Ah yeah, let that man in just because he believes in you... then watch him abuse your home."
Nope, Jesus or God is just not that stupid.

(Wasn't all the same reply.)
 
2013-03-14 06:13:18 PM  
So you Catholics think this guy is infallible?
I kneel before no god or man.
 
2013-03-14 06:14:05 PM  

Weaver95: Pope Francis has warned the Catholic Church would become "a compassionate NGO" without spiritual renewal.
In a Sistine Chapel Mass with cardinals on his first day as Church leader, the pontiff said: "If we do not confess to Christ, what would we be?
"We would end up a compassionate NGO. What would happen would be like when children make sand castles and then it all falls down."

so if you are kind to the sick and poor but aren't a christian then...what?  it doesn't count?


Yes, that's exactly what he's saying. Gotta have a middle man. What's the point of helping people? Then they just eat and have homes and stuff. You need to get them hooked on religion and keep them coming back generation after generation. To guarantee a constant supply of chil- I mean, people, a constant supply of people.
 
2013-03-14 06:19:26 PM  

Stoker: And seriously, you can have Christ as your savior all day long, but if you are just full of hate and rage, you ain't getting into heaven."Ah yeah, let that man in just because he believes in you... then watch him abuse your home."Nope, Jesus or God is just not that stupid.


If they are full of hate and rage, are they actually a follower of christ, or just another person who attends a church and lies about their beliefs?
 
2013-03-14 06:24:01 PM  

Matthew Keene: Infernalist: using the proceeds to feed the poor.

You know, if you feed the poor, there'll just be more of 'em next year.


Ok, use the proceeds to give them aid to feed themselves.
 
2013-03-14 06:24:53 PM  
People might start thinking your whole organization is based around archaic superstitions!
 
2013-03-14 06:27:35 PM  

Silverstaff: One of the big points of contention in the Protestant Reformation was the idea that for a baptism to be valid it must be performed on somebody who is old enough to know what it means, and choose to receive it.  That was the dawn of the anabaptist movement, which later became the Baptist Church.


ummm, not quite.  The anabaptists started in Switzerland and spread northward.  Present-day Holland was a major hub.  When the Puritans were expelled from England by Elizabeth I, some went to Holland and picked up many of their ideas.  When these people moved to the U.S., they called themselves Baptists.

The anabaptist movement includes many more people in and from continental Europe such as Mennonites and the Amish.
 
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