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(BBC)   New Pope warns church they are in danger of being compassionate   (bbc.co.uk ) divider line
    More: Followup, Vatican Radio, Castel Gandolfo, morning shows, direct access, First Hour, Jesuits, Sistine Chapel Mass, Catholic Church  
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13838 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Mar 2013 at 4:31 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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vpb [TotalFark]
2013-03-14 03:39:15 PM  
They have kept it under control so far.
 
2013-03-14 03:40:12 PM  
Not that there was much in the way of details, but it seems like he's saying that without their faith and devotion to God, all that is left is the compassion you'd find in any other service-based NGO, not that they'd be in danger of becoming compassionate.  As a church, they're supposed to be more than that.

But there is definitely compassion in spades for the poor in the Catholic Church: Catholic Charities, Catholic Relief Services, Cross Catholic Outreach, the Saint Vincent de Paul society, etc...  it isn't all fighting against gay marriage/adoption and contraception.
 
2013-03-14 03:46:19 PM  
"We would end up a compassionate NGO


ecx.images-amazon.com
 
2013-03-14 03:56:31 PM  
Pope Francis has warned the Catholic Church would become "a compassionate NGO" without spiritual renewal.
In a Sistine Chapel Mass with cardinals on his first day as Church leader, the pontiff said: "If we do not confess to Christ, what would we be?
"We would end up a compassionate NGO. What would happen would be like when children make sand castles and then it all falls down."


so if you are kind to the sick and poor but aren't a christian then...what?  it doesn't count?
 
2013-03-14 04:12:36 PM  

Weaver95: so if you are kind to the sick and poor but aren't a christian then...what? it doesn't count?


I vaguely remember from Catholic school that if you're not Catholic but still act in ways that are Christ-like, you can get into heaven.  It's possible that it's only the case for people who are baptized, though, I don't remember.  Good deeds gets you part of the way there.

For some other Christian branches, good deeds don't mean shiat... you've either accepted Christ as your savior, or you're going to hell.
 
2013-03-14 04:14:36 PM  
Yes, all that priestly compassion truly is a danger to the church. It has already led to many prolapsed Catholic boys.
 
2013-03-14 04:18:28 PM  

factoryconnection: Not that there was much in the way of details, but it seems like he's saying that without their faith and devotion to God, all that is left is the compassion you'd find in any other service-based NGO, not that they'd be in danger of becoming compassionate.  As a church, they're supposed to be more than that.

But there is definitely compassion in spades for the poor in the Catholic Church: Catholic Charities, Catholic Relief Services, Cross Catholic Outreach, the Saint Vincent de Paul society, etc...  it isn't all fighting against gay marriage/adoption and contraception.


Careful.  Folks around here don't like that sort of talk.
 
2013-03-14 04:20:43 PM  

factoryconnection: Not that there was much in the way of details, but it seems like he's saying that without their faith and devotion to God, all that is left is the compassion you'd find in any other service-based NGO, not that they'd be in danger of becoming compassionate.  As a church, they're supposed to be more than that.

But there is definitely compassion in spades for the poor in the Catholic Church: Catholic Charities, Catholic Relief Services, Cross Catholic Outreach, the Saint Vincent de Paul society, etc...  it isn't all fighting against gay marriage/adoption and contraception.


Careful, that's not what the godless heatherns like to hear.
 
2013-03-14 04:36:33 PM  

factoryconnection: Not that there was much in the way of details, but it seems like he's saying that without their faith and devotion to God, all that is left is the compassion you'd find in any other service-based NGO, not that they'd be in danger of becoming compassionate.  As a church, they're supposed to be more than that.

But there is definitely compassion in spades for the poor in the Catholic Church: Catholic Charities, Catholic Relief Services, Cross Catholic Outreach, the Saint Vincent de Paul society, etc...  it isn't all fighting against gay marriage/adoption and contraception.


All wonderful kid-diddling waterfronts, I hear.

/snark
 
2013-03-14 04:38:35 PM  
I hear they're good with kids.  So they're kind of like napalm
 
2013-03-14 04:39:24 PM  

factoryconnection: But there is definitely compassion in spades for the poor in the Catholic Church: Catholic Charities, Catholic Relief Services, Cross Catholic Outreach, the Saint Vincent de Paul society, etc...  it isn't all fighting against gay marriage/adoption and contraception.


Plus think of all the young boys they've provided a free sex education for!
 
2013-03-14 04:40:07 PM  
If the guy were to come out in front of the crowd and confess his worst qualities, most heinous deeds, and impure thoughts - then maybe I could take his little showboating examples of humility seriously.

Christ requires humanity to exist - individual humans believing that he exists as a supernatural power.  When the Pope stands before a world's audience, he is looking at the near entirety of Christ, minus one piece, that being the Pope himself.  So, when he calls upon the world to confess to Christ, that call is meaningless unless he confesses himself to Christ's assemblage before him.

I wouldn't hold an individual to that standard.  They can confess to Christ privately, as that's the best they're ever really going to do.  However, there's only one pope in the entire universe.  And with the followers of the Catholic church playing the role of Trinity, the pope needs to man up and bare his soul.  That act would open the gates of heaven again to man.  But until it happens, the doors remain closed and the papacy remains a show choir with a bulletproof float.
 
2013-03-14 04:40:49 PM  

Weaver95: Pope Francis has warned the Catholic Church would become "a compassionate NGO" without spiritual renewal.
In a Sistine Chapel Mass with cardinals on his first day as Church leader, the pontiff said: "If we do not confess to Christ, what would we be?
"We would end up a compassionate NGO. What would happen would be like when children make sand castles and then it all falls down."

so if you are kind to the sick and poor but aren't a christian then...what?  it doesn't count?


No, you're just... not a Christian. Kinda a failure state for a Christian church.

/good luck getting shiat straight Francis.
 
2013-03-14 04:42:22 PM  

Weaver95: Pope Francis has warned the Catholic Church would become "a compassionate NGO" without spiritual renewal.
In a Sistine Chapel Mass with cardinals on his first day as Church leader, the pontiff said: "If we do not confess to Christ, what would we be?
"We would end up a compassionate NGO. What would happen would be like when children make sand castles and then it all falls down."

so if you are kind to the sick and poor but aren't a christian then...what?  it doesn't count?


Nope. No compassion for heathens. God is REALLY picky.
 
2013-03-14 04:42:39 PM  
I guess he's putting the "ass" back into compassion.
 
2013-03-14 04:43:01 PM  
CSB:
I learned there was a new pope while I was attending a Bad Religion concert last night.
 
2013-03-14 04:44:19 PM  

RodneyToady: Weaver95: so if you are kind to the sick and poor but aren't a christian then...what? it doesn't count?

I vaguely remember from Catholic school that if you're not Catholic but still act in ways that are Christ-like, you can get into heaven.  It's possible that it's only the case for people who are baptized, though, I don't remember.  Good deeds gets you part of the way there.

For some other Christian branches, good deeds don't mean shiat... you've either accepted Christ as your savior, or you're going to hell.


Doesn't Purgatory factor into that somehow as well? If you're not a True Catholic but are still a good person, you just have to hang out in Heaven's waiting area for a few thousand years?
 
2013-03-14 04:45:07 PM  

factoryconnection: Not that there was much in the way of details, but it seems like he's saying that without their faith and devotion to God, all that is left is the compassion you'd find in any other service-based NGO, not that they'd be in danger of becoming compassionate.  As a church, they're supposed to be more than that.

But there is definitely compassion in spades for the poor in the Catholic Church: Catholic Charities, Catholic Relief Services, Cross Catholic Outreach, the Saint Vincent de Paul society, etc...  it isn't all fighting against gay marriage/adoption and contraception.



And what about the autobahn and VW, eh?  I mean... COME ON!  It's not all child-rape and money laundering all of the time!
 
2013-03-14 04:47:50 PM  
Subby's reading comprehension sucks.
 
2013-03-14 04:47:50 PM  

bourbonslurp: CSB:
I learned there was a new pope while I was attending a Bad Religion concert last night.


They were totally off the mark with "10 in 2010". =/ I just don't know if I can trust them anymore.
 
2013-03-14 04:48:01 PM  
He packed his bags and then he went to pay the bill for his room so as to set a good example

Is it customary for popes to stiff hotels on the bill for their stay normally?

He also broke tradition by remaining standing to receive cardinals' acts of homage after his election, instead of sitting in the papal throne

Praise Jebus, a miracle. Quick, raise him to sainthood.
 
2013-03-14 04:48:12 PM  
SOMEBODY TELL ME WHAT THE FARK IS AN "NGO"


*clap* *clap* NGO
*clap* *clap* NGO
*clap* *clap* NGO
And Bingo was his name-o
 
2013-03-14 04:50:26 PM  

algrant33: SOMEBODY TELL ME WHAT THE FARK IS AN "NGO"


*clap* *clap* NGO
*clap* *clap* NGO
*clap* *clap* NGO
And Bingo was his name-o


Non-governmental organization, which, by its strict definition, is the Church already.
 
2013-03-14 04:50:42 PM  
I hope this doesnt mean spooning after molestation.
 
2013-03-14 04:51:10 PM  

algrant33: SOMEBODY TELL ME WHAT THE FARK IS AN "NGO"


*clap* *clap* NGO
*clap* *clap* NGO
*clap* *clap* NGO
And Bingo was his name-o

Non-governmental organization

 
2013-03-14 04:52:16 PM  
I just got my nipples pierced today.
 
2013-03-14 04:52:57 PM  

Matthew Keene: I just got my nipples pierced today.


CSB, what's next?
 
2013-03-14 04:53:40 PM  

lucksi: He packed his bags and then he went to pay the bill for his room so as to set a good example

Is it customary for popes Catholics to stiff hotels on the bill for their stay normally?


/FTFY
 
2013-03-14 04:55:05 PM  

Dr_Gene: lucksi: He packed his bags and then he went to pay the bill for his room so as to set a good example

Is it customary for popes Catholics to stiff hotels on the bill for their stay normally?

/FTFY


i2.photobucket.com
 
2013-03-14 04:56:16 PM  
Algrant33

Non-governmental organization:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-governmental_organization
 
2013-03-14 04:56:31 PM  
The news commentary is really annoying.

Everyone is writing, "Clearly all indications are that the new pope will implement my ideal agenda for the church".
 
2013-03-14 04:56:36 PM  

CygnusDarius: algrant33: SOMEBODY TELL ME WHAT THE FARK IS AN "NGO"


*clap* *clap* NGO
*clap* *clap* NGO
*clap* *clap* NGO
And Bingo was his name-o

Non-governmental organization, which, by its strict definition, is the Church already.


New Pope seemed to use an intellectual argument.  I suppose a Jesuit would do that.  Generally I think the term NGO is more commonly used internationally but still has the same meaning.

/Prefers Pope Classic (the JPaul ii )
 
2013-03-14 04:56:55 PM  

factoryconnection: Not that there was much in the way of details, but it seems like he's saying that without their faith and devotion to God, all that is left is the compassion you'd find in any other service-based NGO, not that they'd be in danger of becoming compassionate.  As a church, they're supposed to be more than that.

But there is definitely compassion in spades for the poor in the Catholic Church: Catholic Charities, Catholic Relief Services, Cross Catholic Outreach, the Saint Vincent de Paul society, etc...  it isn't all fighting against gay marriage/adoption and contraception.


yes, but then subby wouldn't have gotten a green submission without his trollish headline
 
2013-03-14 05:00:02 PM  

factoryconnection: But there is definitely compassion in spades for the poor in the Catholic Church: Catholic Charities, Catholic Relief Services, Cross Catholic Outreach, the Saint Vincent de Paul society, etc...  it isn't all fighting against gay marriage/adoption and contraception.


OH no. there's rape of children, and starvation because people are encouraged to breed, but not to get a good education and find a good job. Just breed kids, because they like kids. Breed them so they starve.
The greatest weapon of any political empire is controlling the food.
If you tell people to breed like that you are playing to the bad guys.
 
2013-03-14 05:00:14 PM  

RodneyToady: Good deeds gets you part of the way there.


That, folks, is what we call heresy.
 
2013-03-14 05:00:33 PM  
It's almost like the man is saying that providing help without structure, especially in very poor areas, doesn't help the people out of poverty it only eases the pain of poverty.
 
2013-03-14 05:04:28 PM  

WTF Indeed: it only eases the pain of poverty.


I need a sugar daddy to pay my internet bill, and buy me some nose candy.
 
2013-03-14 05:05:23 PM  

WTF Indeed: It's almost like the man is saying that providing help without structure, especially in very poor areas, doesn't help the people out of poverty it only eases the pain of poverty.


Kind of like Obamacare.  It won't cure the common cold, it'll just treat the symptoms.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-03-14 05:06:09 PM  

factoryconnection: Not that there was much in the way of details, but it seems like he's saying that without their faith and devotion to God, all that is left is the compassion you'd find in any other service-based NGO, not that they'd be in danger of becoming compassionate.  As a church, they're supposed to be more than that.

But there is definitely compassion in spades for the poor in the Catholic Church: Catholic Charities, Catholic Relief Services, Cross Catholic Outreach, the Saint Vincent de Paul society, etc...  it isn't all fighting against gay marriage/adoption and contraception.


No, but much of it is, and most NGOs have all the compassion without the hate.
 
2013-03-14 05:06:11 PM  
Mock the Catholic Church for its antiquated views on sexuality, contraception and the role of women with a history of coverups of pedophile priests, perhaps, but it's really wrong not to call it a compassionate organization.

The Catholic church, through its many charities and NGOs, do a lot of good in the world in providing for the poor and hungry. Unlike some of its evangelical Protestant cousins, the Catholic Church holds social justice as a goal and a virtue. Unlike the megachurches in the States where the whole point of the church is so you can send it money.
 
2013-03-14 05:07:32 PM  
At least the church was able to distance themselves from the murky "Nazi" connection.

So, where's this guy from?

oh.... Argentina....
 
2013-03-14 05:08:44 PM  

RexTalionis: Mock the Catholic Church for its antiquated views on sexuality, contraception and the role of women with a history of coverups of pedophile priests, perhaps, but it's really wrong not to call it a compassionate organization.

The Catholic church, through its many charities and NGOs, do a lot of good in the world in providing for the poor and hungry. Unlike some of its evangelical Protestant cousins, the Catholic Church holds social justice as a goal and a virtue. Unlike the megachurches in the States where the whole point of the church is so you can send it money.


Jesus can't help you buy that McMansion if you don't send money.
 
2013-03-14 05:09:40 PM  

RexTalionis: Unlike the megachurches in the States where the whole point of the church is so you can send it money.


And you think they don't get mocked, either?

I'd pay a church not to molest children, though, if that's what it took.  As it is, the Catholic Church is one of the richest in the world, with untold treasures that you won't be able to pry out o fits cold, dead hands.  It's a government, not a religion.  And doing some good things in no way excuses the ongoing atrocities in which it is complicit.
 
2013-03-14 05:09:47 PM  

WTF Indeed: It's almost like the man is saying that providing help without structure, especially in very poor areas, doesn't help the people out of poverty it only eases the pain of poverty.

Exactly.  What's the good of feeding the starving people in Africa if we don't try to convert them at the same time?  If you don't convert them, they'll just get hungry again later!
Also, if they're hungry enough, they'll agree to worship a Nike sneaker if you offer them some rice.
 
2013-03-14 05:09:49 PM  

factoryconnection: But there is definitely compassion in spades for the poor in the Catholic Church: Catholic Charities, Catholic Relief Services, Cross Catholic Outreach, the Saint Vincent de Paul society, etc...  it isn't all fighting against gay marriage/adoption and contraception.


And no altar boy ever lacks for something to eat, if you know what I mean.

ecx.images-amazon.com
 
2013-03-14 05:10:27 PM  

vpb: No, but much of it is, and most NGOs have all the compassion without the hate.


Whom does the Church "hate"?
 
2013-03-14 05:13:30 PM  

jayhawk88: Doesn't Purgatory factor into that somehow as well? If you're not a True Catholic but are still a good person, you just have to hang out in Heaven's waiting area for a few thousand years?


Yes, but I've also heard from Catholics that time doesn't operate the same way in the afterlife as it does on earth.  So I don't know how the math works.  If a thousand purgatory years is the equivalent of a million earth years, it sucks.  If it's the equivalent of a thousand seconds, then it's not so bad.  Plus, either way, you're supposed to go to heaven afterwards for eternity.

I went through 18 years of Catholic education (K-Masters degree), and I think I declared my agnosticism at around age 10, because too much of the logic struck me as half-baked.

For me, the question comes down to "If there is a God, regardless of our belief or lack of belief in him or his faith systems, how much of a dick is he?"  And for most religions, he's a dick to nonbelievers.  And my thinking is, if you're an omniscient, omnipotent being, there's no need to be a dick.
 
2013-03-14 05:15:03 PM  

RexTalionis: the whole point of the church is so you can send it money.


The Good Lord told me that there was someone in radio land whose daughter was in trouble. Is your daughter in trouble? The Almighty said it could be taken care of. Simply send a hundred dollars. If you ain't got it, hock something. But get it, and send it.

totally ripped off from Hudson & Landry Friar Shuck skit
 
2013-03-14 05:15:49 PM  
If we do not confess to Christ, what would we be?

Free?
 
2013-03-14 05:17:50 PM  

jayhawk88: Doesn't Purgatory factor into that somehow as well? If you're not a True Catholic but are still a good person, you just have to hang out in Heaven's waiting area for a few thousand years?


Virtuous pagans are said to go to Limbo, which you don't get out of.  Purgatory is different.  Note however that my info is fourth-hand (or so) via Pournelle and Niven.
 
2013-03-14 05:19:40 PM  

Sir Not Sure The Unscannable: If we do not confess to Christ, what would we be?

Free?


HA!

/nice.
 
2013-03-14 05:19:45 PM  

Nabb1: vpb: No, but much of it is, and most NGOs have all the compassion without the hate.

Whom does the Church "hate"?


Take a look at all the groups negatively affected by church practices. Add to that list people negatively affected when the church attempts to (and sometimes succeeds in) legislating morality. Finally, look at the church itself and take a look at the very congregants who wound up being harmed by the church.

That's who the church hates. You see, the church can pay lip service to "loving" everyone and not feeling a bit of hate, but their actions belie those sentiments. Remember, the golden rule isn't "Feel about others as you would have them feel about you," it's "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." They can have all the piety in the world, it is their actions that determine whom they do and don't hate.

/For the record, most lay Catholics are very awesome, loving people who actually do practice what Christ preached and are way better at it than I am. It's when you get into the church hierarchy that we start to see problems.
 
2013-03-14 05:20:40 PM  

mnemonic device: Virtuous pagans are said to go to Limbo, which you don't get out of.  Purgatory is different.  Note however that my info is fourth-hand (or so) via Pournelle and Niven.


You only have to crawl past Satans frozen scrotum to a hole so you can get into Limbo, if Beni can do it, so can anyone else
 
2013-03-14 05:21:52 PM  

Infernalist: Exactly.  What's the good of feeding the starving people in Africa if we don't try to convert them at the same time?  If you don't convert them, they'll just get hungry again later!
Also, if they're hungry enough, they'll agree to worship a Nike sneaker if you offer them some rice.


I'm guessing you don't know how Catholic Charities work.
 
2013-03-14 05:22:28 PM  

RexTalionis: Mock the Catholic Church for its antiquated views on sexuality, contraception and the role of women with a history of coverups of pedophile priests, perhaps, but it's really wrong not to call it a compassionate organization.

The Catholic church, through its many charities and NGOs, do a lot of good in the world in providing for the poor and hungry. Unlike some of its evangelical Protestant cousins, the Catholic Church holds social justice as a goal and a virtue. Unlike the megachurches in the States where the whole point of the church is so you can send it money.


Basically, this.

It's been interesting to see over the past 24 hours all of these opinions of the Catholic church laid bare. I'm no Catholic (unless baptism counts) but I'm at least willing to give this Francis guy a shot. If nothing else, he'll probably push for a good amount of reform in the Vatican Curia, which may be a first step towards reform of the entire Church.

We're talking about a 2000-year-old institution here. Nothing changes overnight, for better or for worse.
 
2013-03-14 05:23:12 PM  

Marine1: We're talking about a 2000-year-old institution here. Nothing changes overnight, for better or for worse.


Plenary indulgences for all!
 
2013-03-14 05:25:25 PM  

Infernalist: if they're hungry enough, they'll agree to worship a Nike sneaker


xroads.virginia.edu
 
2013-03-14 05:26:01 PM  

WTF Indeed: It's almost like the man is saying that providing help without structure prosthelytizing, especially in very poor areas or where people are desperate, doesn't help the people out of poverty it only eases the pain of poverty the church.


FTFY
 
2013-03-14 05:27:05 PM  

mnemonic device: jayhawk88: Doesn't Purgatory factor into that somehow as well? If you're not a True Catholic but are still a good person, you just have to hang out in Heaven's waiting area for a few thousand years?

Virtuous pagans are said to go to Limbo, which you don't get out of.  Purgatory is different.  Note however that my info is fourth-hand (or so) via Pournelle and Niven.


Speaking of purgatory, Fark has had 7, count 'em, SEVEN pope threads today, and not one about the death of Clive Burr yesterday.  Somebody doesn't have their priorities straight.
 
2013-03-14 05:27:22 PM  

soporific: /For the record, most lay Catholics are very awesome, loving people who actually do practice what Christ preached and are way better at it than I am. It's when you get into the church hierarchy that we start to see problems.


The catholic church probably has the same problem as most organizations, people are promoted to prominence on both who they know, and what they did with them.

At least it ain't back to nobles paying for sons to have positions in the church
 
2013-03-14 05:28:16 PM  
The Catholic church is very generous...if you're catholic or willing to let them convert you...
 
2013-03-14 05:28:25 PM  
I don't see the complication. I evaluate an institution same as I do a person. When you do good, I'll applaud and support you - when you do bad, I'll condemn and oppose you. What's the big quandary, here?
 
2013-03-14 05:30:54 PM  

Marine1: We're talking about a 2000-year-old institution here. Nothing changes overnight, for better or for worse.


Not quite "overnight," but Vatican II changed things pretty quickly.
 
2013-03-14 05:32:53 PM  

RodneyToady: Marine1: We're talking about a 2000-year-old institution here. Nothing changes overnight, for better or for worse.

Not quite "overnight," but Vatican II changed things pretty quickly.


True. It'll be interesting to see if Frank calls another council, or if someone does within the next, eh, 20 years.
 
2013-03-14 05:34:55 PM  

spentmiles: If the guy were to come out in front of the crowd and confess his worst qualities, most heinous deeds, and impure thoughts - then maybe I could take his little showboating examples of humility seriously.

Christ requires humanity to exist - individual humans believing that he exists as a supernatural power.  When the Pope stands before a world's audience, he is looking at the near entirety of Christ, minus one piece, that being the Pope himself.  So, when he calls upon the world to confess to Christ, that call is meaningless unless he confesses himself to Christ's assemblage before him.

I wouldn't hold an individual to that standard.  They can confess to Christ privately, as that's the best they're ever really going to do.  However, there's only one pope in the entire universe.  And with the followers of the Catholic church playing the role of Trinity, the pope needs to man up and bare his soul.  That act would open the gates of heaven again to man.  But until it happens, the doors remain closed and the papacy remains a show choir with a bulletproof float.


I don't think he means confessing sins to Christ, but confessing to others that Jesus is Christ.  If they are doing good works, but not telling people about Jesus, they're just an NGO.  I see this all the time in non Catholic churches too.  Churches are doing outreaches to the poor & are afraid to tell them about Jesus. One lady told she would be afraid to tell people about Jesus.  I said, "Why? Are you afraid they'll laugh at you?  You're already a Christian..."

One lady I met hands out food to the homeless every Tuesday night.  She's always out there going into dangerous places and handing out food.  Our group bumps into hers often.  I looked up her group on the internet and found out she's a pastor and that a half dozen churches are supplying the food.  I  point out homeless that tell me that they want to be prayed for, but she's afraid to let them know.  You really have to press her to even find out that churches are involved.
 
2013-03-14 05:35:49 PM  

CygnusDarius: algrant33: SOMEBODY TELL ME WHAT THE FARK IS AN "NGO"


*clap* *clap* NGO
*clap* *clap* NGO
*clap* *clap* NGO
And Bingo was his name-o

Non-governmental organization, which, by its strict definition, is the Church already.


Are you sure on that one? Religious aspect aside, the Vatican is a sovereign nation, with the pope as head of state.
 
2013-03-14 05:35:55 PM  

SultanofSchwing: The Catholic church is very generous...if you're catholic or willing to let them convert you...


Always convert to the religion giving away the most free shiat.
 
2013-03-14 05:39:20 PM  
I see the new Pope Frank gets his compassion from Mother "Suffering & Death From Overpopulation & Starvation is a Blessing While Contraception is a Curse & Unforgivable Sin" Theresa.
 
2013-03-14 05:40:16 PM  

Felix_T_Cat: I don't think he means confessing sins to Christ, but confessing to others that Jesus is Christ.  If they are doing good works, but not telling people about Jesus, they're just an NGO.  I see this all the time in non Catholic churches too.  Churches are doing outreaches to the poor & are afraid to tell them about Jesus. One lady told she would be afraid to tell people about Jesus.  I said, "Why? Are you afraid they'll laugh at you?  You're already a Christian..."One lady I met hands out food to the homeless every Tuesday night.  She's always out there going into dangerous places and handing out food.  Our group bumps into hers often.  I looked up her group on the internet and found out she's a pastor and that a half dozen churches are supplying the food.  I  point out homeless that tell me that they want to be prayed for, but she's afraid to let them know.  You really have to press her to even find out that churches are involved.


That's odd, I'd be interested to know the reasoning to be silent on that they're "Christian"

Maybe cause  it's not the glamor of going to a foreign country and helping those poor ign'ant savages who ain't get jesus

Maybe it's to avoid having someone come directly to their church and ask for help?

Sometimes the reasons folks do actions or don't do them are as or more interesting then the actions themselves
 
2013-03-14 05:40:45 PM  

jso2897: I don't see the complication. I evaluate an institution same as I do a person. When you do good, I'll applaud and support you - when you do bad, I'll condemn and oppose you. What's the big quandary, here?



A long history of lying to their host cultures, supporting murderous regimes, a habit of keeping their officers shielded from justice, stealing wealth from primitive cultures, manipulating all of their host societies with fear, barbaric views on women's health which have deeply negative reprecussions (most particularly in Africa right now), bigoted teachings about homosexuals, raping tens of thousands of children while quite effectively shielding the vast majority of rapists from justice, taking advantage of their status as a non-profit while simultaneously being one of the most wealthy land and business owners in the world, money laundering and graft to which they're effectively unable to be held to account for... etc. etc......

The quandry I'd say is that few actually DO hold them accountable for what they do. If we did hold them accountable then no one would remain a member of that particular church.
 
2013-03-14 05:41:29 PM  
I don't get it.  Why didn't he just quote Matthew 7:26-27?
 
2013-03-14 05:42:00 PM  

RexTalionis: Mock the Catholic Church for its antiquated views on sexuality, contraception and the role of women with a history of coverups of pedophile priests, perhaps, but it's really wrong not to call it a compassionate organization.

The Catholic church, through its many charities and NGOs, do a lot of good in the world in providing for the poor and hungry. Unlike some of its evangelical Protestant cousins, the Catholic Church holds social justice as a goal and a virtue. Unlike the megachurches in the States where the whole point of the church is so you can send it money.


The Vatican sure has a lot of flashy stuff ... kind of like the televangelists with the golden thrones. Who pays for those red Pope shoes and big hats?
 
2013-03-14 05:43:15 PM  
I'm still sad we don't have a Pope Dolan....not for his even crazier views, but because it would have been decades of hilarious headlines.
 
2013-03-14 05:44:10 PM  

Egalitarian: Who pays for those red Pope shoes and big hats?


Props leftover from the 'Wizard of Oz.'
 
2013-03-14 05:44:12 PM  
This guy is turning out to be a real fiscal conservative.  Not only did he shun the limo and pay his hotel bill buty he, also, made the papal party BOYB - Bring your own boy.
 
2013-03-14 05:44:18 PM  

festoon: I see the new Pope Frank gets his compassion from Mother "Suffering & Death From Overpopulation & Starvation is a Blessing While Contraception is a Curse & Unforgivable Sin" Theresa.



Wonder if when his diary is released, many years after his death, we'll find out he was an atheist too but too gutless to do anything but keep the facade up. That was kind of the ultimate slap in the face from Mother Theresa.
 
2013-03-14 05:44:31 PM  

Egalitarian: The Vatican sure has a lot of flashy stuff ... kind of like the televangelists with the golden thrones. Who pays for those red Pope shoes and big hats?


I think it's kinda the same deal as when companies used to give merchandise to game shows for "promotional considerations".

} Dicker & Dicker of Beverly Hills
 
2013-03-14 05:46:27 PM  
Maybe he should be thinking about why it is that people like to pool their money to help the needy but are drifting away from Catholic dogma.
 
2013-03-14 05:48:57 PM  

boinkingbill: This guy is turning out to be a real fiscal conservative.  Not only did he shun the limo and pay his hotel bill buty he, also, made the papal party BOYB - Bring your own boy.


Ouch!
 
2013-03-14 05:49:02 PM  

RodneyToady: Weaver95: so if you are kind to the sick and poor but aren't a christian then...what? it doesn't count?

I vaguely remember from Catholic school that if you're not Catholic but still act in ways that are Christ-like, you can get into heaven.  It's possible that it's only the case for people who are baptized, though, I don't remember.  Good deeds gets you part of the way there.

For some other Christian branches, good deeds don't mean shiat... you've either accepted Christ as your savior, or you're going to hell.


Okay.

In Catholic belief, if you die without baptism, the Church cannot guarantee you will to get into heaven.  The old concept of "limbo" (no longer officially in use) basically said that virtuous unbaptized individuals were at God's mercy, the Church would not make an official statement of them being in Heaven or Hell.  Now they don't call it "limbo" and merely say its up to God's mercy and its beyond their jurisdiction.

The point of baptism is forgiveness for Original Sin, the idea that we are all born carrying the guilt for Adam and Eve's sin in Eden, and without forgiveness for that sin, we can still be separated from Divine Grace (i.e. go to Hell).  IIRC the only person born without Original Sin after Eden was Mary (the Immaculate Conception), and thus Jesus was not subject to it because his own mother did not have Original Sin.

However, if you are baptized in a valid fashion (basically the baptism is performed by a validly baptized individual in the name of the father, son and holy spirit) then you will go to Heaven as long as you have no Mortal Sins on your soul.  Mortal Sins are the big ones, major sins that make you hellbound.  The point of the sacrament of reconciliation (i.e. confession) is forgiveness of sins, including mortal ones, by repenting them to a priest and performing penance for your sins.

However, it is theoretically possible to achieve penance for mortal sins without a priest, but it would require a true and deep repentance for the sin and deep love of God.  Basically you have to genuinely be deeply sorry for it and want forgiveness and atonement, and try to make amends.

Basically, if you were baptized as an infant and didn't even know it, and lived a virtuous and good life and never committed any really major sins, even if you weren't a practicing Catholic, or even Christian, you could go to Heaven.

Even by Catholic theology, it's possible for Protestants (or anybody else baptized, Catholics recognize most other denominations baptisms except Mormons, saying that Mormons essentially worship a different deity, since their definition of God is so radically different) to go to Heaven, as long as they've never committed a mortal sin or if they had they had a deep and genuine repentance for it between them and God.

Infants are typically baptized when several days or weeks old.  Thus, they can be baptized without understanding or consenting.  One of the points of a Godfather or Godmother is to consent on behalf of the child, speaking in lieu of the Holy Spirit.

One of the big points of contention in the Protestant Reformation was the idea that for a baptism to be valid it must be performed on somebody who is old enough to know what it means, and choose to receive it.  That was the dawn of the anabaptist movement, which later became the Baptist Church.
 
2013-03-14 05:49:42 PM  

MBooda: I don't get it.  Why didn't he just quote Matthew 7:26-27?


Well, from what I understand he was at odds with other Jesuits in South America because they wanted the clergy to advocate for actual change in the societies they're in to reduce poverty and he opposed that. He just wanted to tell everyone to treat the poor nicer when you meet them, so that particular quote is kind of funny in context.

Why put those words in to practice when poverty is such a valuable tool for the church?
 
2013-03-14 05:51:56 PM  

thornhill: Maybe he should be thinking about why it is that people like to pool their money to help the needy but are drifting away from Catholic dogma.


i'd be more concerned with the growing heretical notions spawned by evangelical 'christian' sects here in the united states.  specifically, the pernicious 'prosperity gospel' doctrine, but any of the vaguely defined groups that define themselves as 'christian' yet show little or no actual respect for the teachings as listed by christ in the new testament.  not only are these groups and ideologies toxic to the Church's authority but they also have a rather large amount of money along with undo influence on the Republican party.  their heretical notions directly impact the policies of the US government, and indirectly influence the rest of the world.
 
2013-03-14 05:52:23 PM  
Hey Catholic Church, maybe you should consider melting down a few of your golden palaces and using the proceeds to feed the poor.
 
2013-03-14 05:54:24 PM  

Infernalist: using the proceeds to feed the poor.


You know, if you feed the poor, there'll just be more of 'em next year.
 
2013-03-14 05:54:49 PM  

RodneyToady: Weaver95: so if you are kind to the sick and poor but aren't a christian then...what? it doesn't count?

I vaguely remember from Catholic school that if you're not Catholic but still act in ways that are Christ-like, you can get into heaven.  It's possible that it's only the case for people who are baptized, though, I don't remember.  Good deeds gets you part of the way there.

For some other Christian branches, good deeds don't mean shiat... you've either accepted Christ as your savior, or you're going to hell.


And.its.all.bollocks.
 
2013-03-14 05:56:23 PM  
Felix_T_Cat: I don't think he means confessing sins to Christ, but confessing to others that Jesus is Christ.  If they are doing good works, but not telling people about Jesus, they're just an NGO.  I see this all the time in non Catholic churches too.  Churches are doing outreaches to the poor & are afraid to tell them about Jesus. One lady told she would be afraid to tell people about Jesus.  I said, "Why? Are you afraid they'll laugh at you?  You're already a Christian..."

One lady I met hands out food to the homeless every Tuesday night.  She's always out there going into dangerous places and handing out food.  Our group bumps into hers often.  I looked up her group on the internet and found out she's a pastor and that a half dozen churches are supplying the food.  I  point out homeless that tell me that they want to be prayed for, but she's afraid to let them know.  You really have to press her to even find ...


There's two reasons I can think of:

1) The potential for religion hate as seen in your typical Fark religion thread out there in the real world
2) Trying to distance yourself or your group from other people/groups that are total douches about pushing their religious agenda, or those that are assholes to everyone but it's all good because they'll be forgiven later.

If it were me it'd be the second reason, not wanting to be lumped in with all the loud mouthed, hateful ass-munches that carry on under the banner of God/Jesus.
 
2013-03-14 05:57:40 PM  
I actually have some hope for PF1. Granted, the things he has done thus far may seem like small
PR gestures, but think about the guy's pre-papal history and they make sense. He was a farking
Archbishop who eschewed living in the Archbishop's palace in favor of living in a small one-room
apartment that was heated only by a small cookstove. He didn't even have his own car, preferring
instead to use public transportation. No servants, no fancy meals prepared by chefs.

So yeah, when the Pope forgoes traveling by Popemobile in favor of riding the bus with the other
Cardinals, when his first public appearance was marked by simplicity - a plain white cassock and
a cross - rather than the bejeweled and gold-threaded finery we associate with past Popes, I have
hope.
 
2013-03-14 05:59:13 PM  
Apparently all the folks waxing poetic yesterday about how he was so new and different and "transformational", etc. hadn't bothered to read up on what he actually thinks about Catholic doctrine.

No gays, No birth control, No abortion.

Sure he likes helping poor people and all, but see above for what he thinks is truly important in defining what a Catholic is and ain't.  Compassion, sure, for those who follow the rules.

Same pope, different name.
 
2013-03-14 06:01:57 PM  

digitalrain: I actually have some hope for PF1. Granted, the things he has done thus far may seem like small
PR gestures, but think about the guy's pre-papal history and they make sense. He was a farking
Archbishop who eschewed living in the Archbishop's palace in favor of living in a small one-room
apartment that was heated only by a small cookstove. He didn't even have his own car, preferring
instead to use public transportation. No servants, no fancy meals prepared by chefs.

So yeah, when the Pope forgoes traveling by Popemobile in favor of riding the bus with the other
Cardinals, when his first public appearance was marked by simplicity - a plain white cassock and
a cross - rather than the bejeweled and gold-threaded finery we associate with past Popes, I have
hope.


Yeah, yeah, yeah.  When he sells off the Church's billions in gold and antiquities and uses the money at the Church's disposal to do some 'real' good on the scale of what they're 'capable of accomplishing', then I'll give him props.

Until then, he's a CEO who eats his steak in the company cafeteria to show how 'down to earth' he is.

Oh yeah, and maybe you can think about returning the treasures you looted from a thousand pagan religions for the last 2000 years, while you're at it.
 
2013-03-14 06:03:21 PM  
To be fair, there are some problems with NGOs, or should I say, there are some problematic NGOs.

1) NGOs that are outright scams to make money for their founders/top execs
2) NGOs that are really poorly-disguised political operators
3) NGOs that are scammed by locals
4) NGOs that have good intentions but produce poor results
 
2013-03-14 06:06:16 PM  
We either need to dismantle the Catholic Church and say "FU(K ALL YOU INDIGENT STRIGHT BASTARDS WHO DEPEND ON THIS" Or we need an anti-Catholic gay church in addition to he anti-gay Catholic church to help out poor gay people. Because I can tell neither side likes the other enough to join forces for the good of both.
 
2013-03-14 06:08:48 PM  

Egalitarian: To be fair, there are some problems with NGOs, or should I say, there are some problematic NGOs.

1) NGOs that are outright scams to make money for their founders/top execs
2) NGOs that are really poorly-disguised political operators
3) NGOs that are scammed by locals
4) NGOs that have good intentions but produce poor results


...and quite ironically, the Catholic Church falls under all four categories.
 
2013-03-14 06:09:23 PM  

factoryconnection: Not that there was much in the way of details, but it seems like he's saying that without their faith and devotion to God, all that is left is the compassion you'd find in any other service-based NGO, not that they'd be in danger of becoming compassionate.  As a church, they're supposed to be more than that.

But there is definitely compassion in spades for the poor in the Catholic Church: Catholic Charities, Catholic Relief Services, Cross Catholic Outreach, the Saint Vincent de Paul society, etc...  it isn't all fighting against gay marriage/adoption and contraception.

-=-
It isn't all, but it is the bad part of what they do. Not very appealing, and so.... medieval to me.

And seriously, you can have Christ as your savior all day long, but if you are just full of hate and rage, you ain't getting into heaven.
"Ah yeah, let that man in just because he believes in you... then watch him abuse your home."
Nope, Jesus or God is just not that stupid.
 
2013-03-14 06:11:15 PM  
It isn't all, but it is the bad part of what they do. Not very appealing, and so.... medieval to me.
-------------------------------------------
And seriously, you can have Christ as your savior all day long, but if you are just full of hate and rage, you ain't getting into heaven.
"Ah yeah, let that man in just because he believes in you... then watch him abuse your home."
Nope, Jesus or God is just not that stupid.

(Wasn't all the same reply.)
 
2013-03-14 06:13:18 PM  
So you Catholics think this guy is infallible?
I kneel before no god or man.
 
2013-03-14 06:14:05 PM  

Weaver95: Pope Francis has warned the Catholic Church would become "a compassionate NGO" without spiritual renewal.
In a Sistine Chapel Mass with cardinals on his first day as Church leader, the pontiff said: "If we do not confess to Christ, what would we be?
"We would end up a compassionate NGO. What would happen would be like when children make sand castles and then it all falls down."

so if you are kind to the sick and poor but aren't a christian then...what?  it doesn't count?


Yes, that's exactly what he's saying. Gotta have a middle man. What's the point of helping people? Then they just eat and have homes and stuff. You need to get them hooked on religion and keep them coming back generation after generation. To guarantee a constant supply of chil- I mean, people, a constant supply of people.
 
2013-03-14 06:19:26 PM  

Stoker: And seriously, you can have Christ as your savior all day long, but if you are just full of hate and rage, you ain't getting into heaven."Ah yeah, let that man in just because he believes in you... then watch him abuse your home."Nope, Jesus or God is just not that stupid.


If they are full of hate and rage, are they actually a follower of christ, or just another person who attends a church and lies about their beliefs?
 
2013-03-14 06:24:01 PM  

Matthew Keene: Infernalist: using the proceeds to feed the poor.

You know, if you feed the poor, there'll just be more of 'em next year.


Ok, use the proceeds to give them aid to feed themselves.
 
2013-03-14 06:24:53 PM  
People might start thinking your whole organization is based around archaic superstitions!
 
2013-03-14 06:27:35 PM  

Silverstaff: One of the big points of contention in the Protestant Reformation was the idea that for a baptism to be valid it must be performed on somebody who is old enough to know what it means, and choose to receive it.  That was the dawn of the anabaptist movement, which later became the Baptist Church.


ummm, not quite.  The anabaptists started in Switzerland and spread northward.  Present-day Holland was a major hub.  When the Puritans were expelled from England by Elizabeth I, some went to Holland and picked up many of their ideas.  When these people moved to the U.S., they called themselves Baptists.

The anabaptist movement includes many more people in and from continental Europe such as Mennonites and the Amish.
 
2013-03-14 06:30:14 PM  

mnemonic device: jayhawk88: Doesn't Purgatory factor into that somehow as well? If you're not a True Catholic but are still a good person, you just have to hang out in Heaven's waiting area for a few thousand years?

Virtuous pagans are said to go to Limbo, which you don't get out of.  Purgatory is different.  Note however that my info is fourth-hand (or so) via Pournelle and Niven.


That's Dante. He was not actually a religious leader; Inferno was satire. Purgatory is a religious belief, not satire.

/Everyone mixes that up, but Inferno is something you study in English class precisely  because it's satirical, aimed at a lot of political leaders of the day.
 
2013-03-14 06:33:14 PM  
"If we do not confess to Christ ... "

Pffffft!! Why can't these guys just live like ... Christ?
 
2013-03-14 06:34:37 PM  

spentmiles: - then maybe I could take his little showboating examples of humility seriously.


So....I am not the only person that has picked up on this. There is a "look at me!" quality to his alleged humility.

Some vatican priest was quoted yesterday noting that the new Pope told him "with great pride" that he cooked for himself and took the bus.
I think that's what passes for a snide remark among priests.
 
2013-03-14 06:38:09 PM  

arethereanybeernamesleft: That, folks, is what we call heresy.


Faith without works is dead.

That's a quote from the book of James.
 
2013-03-14 06:39:03 PM  
Im a big FARK feeb whore got a golden keyboard
And Im loved everywhere like dope.
I type with vain beauty and a type of half truth
And I hate me that Catholic Pope.
I get all kindsa thrills exploitin all kindsa shills
But the thrill Ive never know
Is the chill that'll getcha when you get your picture
On the cover of the Trollin Stone
 
2013-03-14 06:39:05 PM  

mongbiohazard: jso2897: I don't see the complication. I evaluate an institution same as I do a person. When you do good, I'll applaud and support you - when you do bad, I'll condemn and oppose you. What's the big quandary, here?


A long history of lying to their host cultures, supporting murderous regimes, a habit of keeping their officers shielded from justice, stealing wealth from primitive cultures, manipulating all of their host societies with fear, barbaric views on women's health which have deeply negative reprecussions (most particularly in Africa right now), bigoted teachings about homosexuals, raping tens of thousands of children while quite effectively shielding the vast majority of rapists from justice, taking advantage of their status as a non-profit while simultaneously being one of the most wealthy land and business owners in the world, money laundering and graft to which they're effectively unable to be held to account for... etc. etc......

The quandry I'd say is that few actually DO hold them accountable for what they do. If we did hold them accountable then no one would remain a member of that particular church.


See what I mean? It's as simple for you as it is for me. No quandary!
We both have it all worked out to our own satisfaction.
 
2013-03-14 06:39:22 PM  
upworthy-production.s3.amazonaws.com
 
2013-03-14 06:39:47 PM  

Melvin Lovecraft: Speaking of purgatory, Fark has had 7, count 'em, SEVEN pope threads today, and not one about the death of Clive Burr yesterday. Somebody doesn't have their priorities straight.


This.  Are Fark mods having a Pope-gasm?

"OH POPE!"
"OH POPE!!"
"OH POPE!!!"
"OHHH POPE!!!"
"POPE!!!!!! OH!"
etc....


Go Home Fark, You're Drunk.
 
2013-03-14 06:40:38 PM  

boinkingbill: This guy is turning out to be a real fiscal conservative.


We in California have an ex-Jesuit as a governor. These behaviors are very familiar.
 
2013-03-14 06:42:31 PM  

factoryconnection: it isn't all fighting against gay marriage/adoption and contraception.


But they're sure working on it.
 
2013-03-14 06:44:16 PM  

Lord Jubjub: Silverstaff: One of the big points of contention in the Protestant Reformation was the idea that for a baptism to be valid it must be performed on somebody who is old enough to know what it means, and choose to receive it.  That was the dawn of the anabaptist movement, which later became the Baptist Church.

ummm, not quite.  The anabaptists started in Switzerland and spread northward.  Present-day Holland was a major hub.  When the Puritans were expelled from England by Elizabeth I, some went to Holland and picked up many of their ideas.  When these people moved to the U.S., they called themselves Baptists.

The anabaptist movement includes many more people in and from continental Europe such as Mennonites and the Amish.


How does that affect what I said?  I wasn't talking about their geographic origins, but their theological divergence from Catholicism?  Are you saying the anabaptists believed in infant baptism?  Are you talking about them as the theological origin of modern-day Baptists?

Yeah, the American Baptist faiths came from Puritans. . .and the Puritans were derived from continental Anabaptists in the early 1600's.  A quick double-check of the Wiki has a citation that the Puritan movement in England was inspired/derived from Anabaptists in Amsterdam circa 1609, but it branched off and became its own movement (I normally hate to bring anything in from the wiki, but as a quick double-check that I'm not misremembering this part).  It also states that some historians think it did arise independently. . .but was theologically influenced by it (as is evident from their very similar beliefs arising around the same time).

Theologically, the Puritans and modern-day Baptists hold the same key tenets of Christianity as historic anabaptists and modern anabaptist-derived denominations: belief in the Priesthood of All Believers, rejection of infant baptism/believers baptism, sola scriptura, evangelism.
 
2013-03-14 06:54:13 PM  
I pay my hotel bill every time. Where is my big, pointy hat? Where are my red shoes?!?
 
2013-03-14 06:56:02 PM  

fusillade762: [upworthy-production.s3.amazonaws.com image 850x807]


Holy Crap! You mean the leader of a religion that doesn't believe in gay marriage might not belief in gay marriage!!!!
 
2013-03-14 06:58:14 PM  

ChiWhiteSox_56: I pay my hotel bill every time. Where is my big, pointy hat? Where are my red shoes?!?


encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
 
2013-03-14 06:58:23 PM  

Glendale: Felix_T_Cat: I don't think he means confessing sins to Christ, but confessing to others that Jesus is Christ.  If they are doing good works, but not telling people about Jesus, they're just an NGO.  I see this all the time in non Catholic churches too.  Churches are doing outreaches to the poor & are afraid to tell them about Jesus. One lady told she would be afraid to tell people about Jesus.  I said, "Why? Are you afraid they'll laugh at you?  You're already a Christian..."

One lady I met hands out food to the homeless every Tuesday night.  She's always out there going into dangerous places and handing out food.  Our group bumps into hers often.  I looked up her group on the internet and found out she's a pastor and that a half dozen churches are supplying the food.  I  point out homeless that tell me that they want to be prayed for, but she's afraid to let them know.  You really have to press her to even find ...

There's two reasons I can think of:

1) The potential for religion hate as seen in your typical Fark religion thread out there in the real world
2) Trying to distance yourself or your group from other people/groups that are total douches about pushing their religious agenda, or those that are assholes to everyone but it's all good because they'll be forgiven later.

If it were me it'd be the second reason, not wanting to be lumped in with all the loud mouthed, hateful ass-munches that carry on under the banner of God/Jesus.


Yeah, we refused to work with another group that went for 3 second 'Rodeo' evangelism.  It was an inner city group that did that because they were afraid the people they were talking too would be dead soon. I just don't experience them dying that regularly.  As far as I saw, it just built up a wall fast & the people who had been tromped on wouldn't accept aid from anyone they thought were associated with them.  And we'll work with _anyone_.  We work alongside lots of secular NGO's.  From the start we told the NGO's, "If you think we're harming your work, correct us.  If we won't be corrected, abandon us."

But the point is this, if you go in for Jesus and really believe it, it's the most important thing you have to offer.  Yeah, you're feeding and clothing them, but you believe this Jesus thing can give them everything.

There is another reason I could think of.  At first the homeless are thrilled and we become close.  We mention God, but don't get overbearing.  Over time as they continue to get drunk and beat each other up, we become an inconvenient mirror.  They start to feel ashamed and start hiding their weed and booze.  We know about the reaction now and just keep trying to love them till they get used to the idea that they aren't being judged.  But they're judging themselves and it's uncomfortable for the ones who aren't good at lying to themselves.

One time we we're walking into an area with some social workers...

Worker: "Hey, we're not supposed to be here.  A guy got beat up and someone has a gun."
Us:  "Yeah, we know.  We have an understanding with them.  We're going to talk to them now."
Worker:  "We're going to see the victim?"
Us:  "No, we're going to talk to the assailants."
Assailant (depressed):  "We haven't seen you in a while."
Us:  "We're still at the bus station every Tuesday night.  You know where to find us if you need something."

We bumped into one of the girls the other night, "Hey! These are the the church people!  They're the shiat!"
 
2013-03-14 07:02:34 PM  

WTF Indeed: fusillade762: [upworthy-production.s3.amazonaws.com image 850x807]

Holy Crap! You mean the leader of a religion that doesn't believe in gay marriage might not belief in gay marriage!!!!


When you focus on opposition to gay marriage, gays in general, birth control and a resistance to cleaning up the corruption in your own ranks, you have to expect a healthy amount of scorn, ridicule and contempt by the rest of humanity.

By the way, if Jesus was 'real', he'd have divorced this biatch of a 'bride' by now.
 
2013-03-14 07:04:23 PM  

Melvin Lovecraft: Speaking of purgatory, Fark has had 7, count 'em, SEVEN pope threads today, and not one about the death of Clive Burr yesterday. Somebody doesn't have their priorities straight.


http://www.fark.com/comments/7642284/Iron-Maiden-drummer-Clive-Burr- di es-at-56
 
2013-03-14 07:10:49 PM  

Silverstaff: Infants are typically baptized when several days or weeks old. Thus, they can be baptized without understanding or consenting. One of the points of a Godfather or Godmother is to consent on behalf of the child, speaking in lieu of the Holy Spirit.

One of the big points of contention in the Protestant Reformation was the idea that for a baptism to be valid it must be performed on somebody who is old enough to know what it means, and choose to receive it. That was the dawn of the anabaptist movement, which later became the Baptist Church.


This was always one of my big issues with Catholicism.  Infant baptism as a community celebration I can understand.  Infant baptism as a means of removing original sin, absent any kind of choice in the matter, is ridiculous.  Similarly ridiculous is baptism of the dead, as the Mormons do.

Of course, I find the entire concept of "original sin" originating from "Adam and Eve" as equally ridiculous.  And thus my early, and quick, transition to agnosticism.
 
2013-03-14 07:19:01 PM  

This space intentionally left blank.: CygnusDarius: algrant33: SOMEBODY TELL ME WHAT THE FARK IS AN "NGO"


*clap* *clap* NGO
*clap* *clap* NGO
*clap* *clap* NGO
And Bingo was his name-o

Non-governmental organization, which, by its strict definition, is the Church already.

Are you sure on that one? Religious aspect aside, the Vatican is a sovereign nation, with the pope as head of state.


..statehood which was actually granted by the Italian government in 1920 (Lateran Accords )  . It enabled Mussolini to keep on the good side of the RC Church while he went about his way amassing power.

Talk about a deal with the devil.
 
2013-03-14 07:21:03 PM  

jso2897: I don't see the complication. I evaluate an institution same as I do a person. When you do good, I'll applaud and support you - when you do bad, I'll condemn and oppose you. What's the big quandary, here?


Have a look at Mother Theresa, the public opinion and adoration. Then compare it to the actual truth of how she lived her life, the conflict is impressive. That's the problem. Most people trust their religious leaders and cannot take themselves the needed step back to see how it is really 'good' or 'bad'. They are too used to being told and not analysing it themselves.
 
2013-03-14 07:21:20 PM  

RodneyToady: And thus my early, and quick, transition to agnosticism.


Keep contemplating the "Problem of Evil" (which is the formal name of the concept you mention in your 5:13 post), and your conversion will eventually be complete.
 
2013-03-14 07:35:07 PM  

arethereanybeernamesleft: Kind of like Obamacare.  It won't cure the common cold, it'll just treat the symptoms.


Is there anything that does cure the common cold?  If so, I'd like to hear about it.
 
2013-03-14 07:38:25 PM  
They cannot be an NGO, nongovernmental organization.  The Vatican is a sovereign state. The head of that state is the pope. Therefore they are a G.O..

/and as far as compassion goes? pfft.
 
2013-03-14 07:53:37 PM  

Acharne: jso2897: I don't see the complication. I evaluate an institution same as I do a person. When you do good, I'll applaud and support you - when you do bad, I'll condemn and oppose you. What's the big quandary, here?

Have a look at Mother Theresa, the public opinion and adoration. Then compare it to the actual truth of how she lived her life, the conflict is impressive. That's the problem. Most people trust their religious leaders and cannot take themselves the needed step back to see how it is really 'good' or 'bad'. They are too used to being told and not analysing it themselves.


I know about all that - what's your point?
 
2013-03-14 08:06:01 PM  
Changing more than one thing at a time is difficult with such a old and huge institution.  I think going after Priests getting Married rule would help change things.... Ive ben wondering if a MASSIVE letter writing multia media campaign to the new Pope would change his opinion on letting Priests get married, since it's not based in doctrine, and was at one time allowed.

This would hopefully alleviate some of the sexual desperation that helps fuel some of their disgusting acts.

I also wouldnt mind if they farking stepped up and tool 100% responsibility for the rapes.
 
2013-03-14 08:09:01 PM  

IoSaturnalia: RodneyToady: And thus my early, and quick, transition to agnosticism.

Keep contemplating the "Problem of Evil" (which is the formal name of the concept you mention in your 5:13 post), and your conversion will eventually be complete.


I've thought about that a bit.  But I keep getting caught up on my inconclusiveness as to whether or not "evil" actually exists.

It's a convenient concept... like some supernatural force is making us do horrible things.  But we already know too much about psychology and neuroscience to blindly chalk things up to "evil."  We don't know enough to "fix" what makes us do horrific things, but there's enough evidence to have us keep looking in the natural realm rather than the supernatural.
 
2013-03-14 08:10:58 PM  
Serious question for the Farkers criticizing the Catholic Church for the accumulated wealth in the Vatican and churches across the world: How would you work with the fact that the vast majority of the wealth consists of art and architecture? To my understanding, they're not sitting on hoards of gold bars and piles of cash. Do you advocate either selling off the art to private collectors (since a nonprofit would presumably be subject to the same criticism) or melting it down?
 
2013-03-14 08:18:11 PM  

jso2897: Acharne: jso2897: I don't see the complication. I evaluate an institution same as I do a person. When you do good, I'll applaud and support you - when you do bad, I'll condemn and oppose you. What's the big quandary, here?

Have a look at Mother Theresa, the public opinion and adoration. Then compare it to the actual truth of how she lived her life, the conflict is impressive. That's the problem. Most people trust their religious leaders and cannot take themselves the needed step back to see how it is really 'good' or 'bad'. They are too used to being told and not analysing it themselves.

I know about all that - what's your point?


His point was that the Catholic church has a very strong propaganda machine which when coupled with many people's inherent bias to trust their familiar authority figures means few people are honestly doing what you say you do - even when they claim to be. If they really were, they would have little choice but to quit the church in disgust because objectively speaking the church as an organization is patently untrustworthy at the very, very least.
 
2013-03-14 08:21:56 PM  

Victoly: Melvin Lovecraft: Speaking of purgatory, Fark has had 7, count 'em, SEVEN pope threads today, and not one about the death of Clive Burr yesterday. Somebody doesn't have their priorities straight.

http://www.fark.com/comments/7642284/Iron-Maiden-drummer-Clive-Burr- di es-at-56



I stand corrected.  Thank you.
 
2013-03-14 08:28:37 PM  
In a Sistine Chapel Mass with cardinals on his first day as Church leader, the pontiff said: "If we do not confess to Christ, what would we be?

Well, probably a little more responsible and accountable for your own actions and their consequences. Perhaps also a bit more productive.
 
2013-03-14 08:53:15 PM  

jayhawk88: RodneyToady: Weaver95: so if you are kind to the sick and poor but aren't a christian then...what? it doesn't count?

I vaguely remember from Catholic school that if you're not Catholic but still act in ways that are Christ-like, you can get into heaven.  It's possible that it's only the case for people who are baptized, though, I don't remember.  Good deeds gets you part of the way there.

For some other Christian branches, good deeds don't mean shiat... you've either accepted Christ as your savior, or you're going to hell.

Doesn't Purgatory factor into that somehow as well? If you're not a True Catholic but are still a good person, you just have to hang out in Heaven's waiting area for a few thousand years?


If I recall correctly, the last Pope officially did away with Purgatory. Think it might have been one of the rare moments of invoking infallibility, and I THINK "as on earth, thus in heaven" rule thingymajigg
 
2013-03-14 08:54:50 PM  
That brings up another challenge, name one act of compassion that can't be accomplished through purely secular means.
 
2013-03-14 09:02:41 PM  

Weaver95: thornhill: Maybe he should be thinking about why it is that people like to pool their money to help the needy but are drifting away from Catholic dogma.

i'd be more concerned with the growing heretical notions spawned by evangelical 'christian' sects here in the united states.  specifically, the pernicious 'prosperity gospel' doctrine, but any of the vaguely defined groups that define themselves as 'christian' yet show little or no actual respect for the teachings as listed by christ in the new testament.  not only are these groups and ideologies toxic to the Church's authority but they also have a rather large amount of money along with undo influence on the Republican party.  their heretical notions directly impact the policies of the US government, and indirectly influence the rest of the world.


So how is that different from the regular churches?
 
2013-03-14 09:09:23 PM  

PsiChick: mnemonic device: jayhawk88: Doesn't Purgatory factor into that somehow as well? If you're not a True Catholic but are still a good person, you just have to hang out in Heaven's waiting area for a few thousand years?

Virtuous pagans are said to go to Limbo, which you don't get out of.  Purgatory is different.  Note however that my info is fourth-hand (or so) via Pournelle and Niven.

That's Dante. He was not actually a religious leader; Inferno was satire. Purgatory is a religious belief, not satire.

/Everyone mixes that up, but Inferno is something you study in English class precisely  because it's satirical, aimed at a lot of political leaders of the day.


Inferno is part of a trilogy. The other two cover Purgatory and Heaven.
 
2013-03-14 09:11:49 PM  

mongbiohazard: jso2897: Acharne: jso2897: I don't see the complication. I evaluate an institution same as I do a person. When you do good, I'll applaud and support you - when you do bad, I'll condemn and oppose you. What's the big quandary, here?

Have a look at Mother Theresa, the public opinion and adoration. Then compare it to the actual truth of how she lived her life, the conflict is impressive. That's the problem. Most people trust their religious leaders and cannot take themselves the needed step back to see how it is really 'good' or 'bad'. They are too used to being told and not analysing it themselves.

I know about all that - what's your point?

His point was that the Catholic church has a very strong propaganda machine which when coupled with many people's inherent bias to trust their familiar authority figures means few people are honestly doing what you say you do - even when they claim to be. If they really were, they would have little choice but to quit the church in disgust because objectively speaking the church as an organization is patently untrustworthy at the very, very least.


Well, I wouldn't know about that. I can only look at religious institutions from the point of view of an outsider, so I'm free to draw my own conclusions. I can judge deeds as good or bad - but as far as people or institutions, one of the "luxuries" of not being or believing in any god is not having to stand in judgment of other people, or their institutions. Kind of the moral equivalent of not having to get up on Sunday morning and go to church.
Ergo, from where I sit, they are do good when they do good, and bad when they do bad. I'll leave judging them as people or institutions to those who feel their moral authority extends to that.
I do find it amusing that you presume to explain to me how the Catholic church or any religious institution "works", as if I were somehow unaware of that. I haven't spent my life on Mars, in a cave, with my fingers in my ears, y'know.
 
2013-03-14 09:23:39 PM  

jso2897: mongbiohazard: jso2897: Acharne: jso2897: I don't see the complication. I evaluate an institution same as I do a person. When you do good, I'll applaud and support you - when you do bad, I'll condemn and oppose you. What's the big quandary, here?

Have a look at Mother Theresa, the public opinion and adoration. Then compare it to the actual truth of how she lived her life, the conflict is impressive. That's the problem. Most people trust their religious leaders and cannot take themselves the needed step back to see how it is really 'good' or 'bad'. They are too used to being told and not analysing it themselves.

I know about all that - what's your point?

His point was that the Catholic church has a very strong propaganda machine which when coupled with many people's inherent bias to trust their familiar authority figures means few people are honestly doing what you say you do - even when they claim to be. If they really were, they would have little choice but to quit the church in disgust because objectively speaking the church as an organization is patently untrustworthy at the very, very least.

Well, I wouldn't know about that. I can only look at religious institutions from the point of view of an outsider, so I'm free to draw my own conclusions. I can judge deeds as good or bad - but as far as people or institutions, one of the "luxuries" of not being or believing in any god is not having to stand in judgment of other people, or their institutions. Kind of the moral equivalent of not having to get up on Sunday morning and go to church.
Ergo, from where I sit, they are do good when they do good, and bad when they do bad. I'll leave judging them as people or institutions to those who feel their moral authority extends to that.
I do find it amusing that you presume to explain to me how the Catholic church or any religious institution "works", as if I were somehow unaware of that. I haven't spent my life on Mars, in a cave, with my fingers in my ears, y'know.


You used a lot of words to say "I don't give a shiat, I'm completely apathetic."
 
2013-03-14 09:31:56 PM  
And aside from the few acres that constitute Vatican City, where ISN'T the church an NGO?
 
2013-03-14 09:32:33 PM  

Infernalist: You used a lot of words to say "I don't give a shiat, I'm completely apathetic."


No, actually. I didn't say that, in any number of words. That I don't presume to pronounce any person or institution categorically good or evil, as a whole, does not express or imply any lack of moral judgment on my part. The willingness to pass judgment on others, and the ability to distinguish good deeds from bad are two separate and distinct human qualities.
 
2013-03-14 09:42:56 PM  

Silverstaff: Lord Jubjub: Silverstaff: One of the big points of contention in the Protestant Reformation was the idea that for a baptism to be valid it must be performed on somebody who is old enough to know what it means, and choose to receive it.  That was the dawn of the anabaptist movement, which later became the Baptist Church.


That was my point of contention.  You're statement implied that anabaptists became the Baptist Church.  I merely pointed out that the opposite was true.
 
2013-03-14 09:56:04 PM  
I thought this was the most interesting bit in the article: "A visit to his predecessor Benedict XVI at his retreat at Castel Gandolfo outside Rome is also planned, but will not take place in the next couple of days, Father Lombardi said.  The visit to Benedict is important, correspondents say, as the existence of a living retired pope has prompted fears of a possible rival power."

POPE FIGHT!
 
2013-03-14 09:59:38 PM  

fifthhorseman: I thought this was the most interesting bit in the article: "A visit to his predecessor Benedict XVI at his retreat at Castel Gandolfo outside Rome is also planned, but will not take place in the next couple of days, Father Lombardi said.  The visit to Benedict is important, correspondents say, as the existence of a living retired pope has prompted fears of a possible rival power."

POPE FIGHT!


I don't see it being much of a fight. Benedict still has a devastating left hook, but his timing is shot, and his footwork has suffered badly in recent years. Francis has the youth, the speed, and the reach. No contest.
 
2013-03-14 10:07:23 PM  
mongbiohazard: jso2897: Acharne: jso2897: I don't see the complication. I evaluate an institution same as I do a person. When you do good, I'll applaud and support you - when you do bad, I'll condemn and oppose you. What's the big quandary, here?

Have a look at Mother Theresa, the public opinion and adoration. Then compare it to the actual truth of how she lived her life, the conflict is impressive. That's the problem. Most people trust their religious leaders and cannot take themselves the needed step back to see how it is really 'good' or 'bad'. They are too used to being told and not analysing it themselves.

I know about all that - what's your point?

His point was that the Catholic church has a very strong propaganda machine which when coupled with many people's inherent bias to trust their familiar authority figures means few people are honestly doing what you say you do - even when they claim to be. If they really were, they would have little choice but to quit the church in disgust because objectively speaking the church as an organization is patently untrustworthy at the very, very least.

Thank you. That's what I mean.
 
2013-03-14 10:09:24 PM  
i.imgur.com

/Many Cardinals, both sides!
 
2013-03-14 10:13:02 PM  

eggrolls: And aside from the few acres that constitute Vatican City, where ISN'T the church an NGO?


The Catholic Church sees itself as far more than just an NGO, it sees itself as the main vessel of spiritual salvation on Earth, given a mission by God Himself to save the souls of the human race.

As an institution they reach back 2000 years, and the legal sovereign status of the Vatican City in international law is NOT what they see as the bedrock of their power.

Pope Francis, in the full context of his statement, is talking about how he wants to ensure that the Church retains its spiritual role and is not just a benevolent NGO, to do more than just feed the hungry and shelter the cold and heal the weak, but to ensure their eternal salvation.
 
2013-03-14 10:20:01 PM  

Acharne: mongbiohazard: jso2897: Acharne: jso2897: I don't see the complication. I evaluate an institution same as I do a person. When you do good, I'll applaud and support you - when you do bad, I'll condemn and oppose you. What's the big quandary, here?

Have a look at Mother Theresa, the public opinion and adoration. Then compare it to the actual truth of how she lived her life, the conflict is impressive. That's the problem. Most people trust their religious leaders and cannot take themselves the needed step back to see how it is really 'good' or 'bad'. They are too used to being told and not analysing it themselves.

I know about all that - what's your point?

His point was that the Catholic church has a very strong propaganda machine which when coupled with many people's inherent bias to trust their familiar authority figures means few people are honestly doing what you say you do - even when they claim to be. If they really were, they would have little choice but to quit the church in disgust because objectively speaking the church as an organization is patently untrustworthy at the very, very least.

Thank you. That's what I mean.


Yes - but as a response to what I said - which it was - it's meaningless.
 
2013-03-14 10:20:07 PM  

jso2897: fifthhorseman: I thought this was the most interesting bit in the article: "A visit to his predecessor Benedict XVI at his retreat at Castel Gandolfo outside Rome is also planned, but will not take place in the next couple of days, Father Lombardi said.  The visit to Benedict is important, correspondents say, as the existence of a living retired pope has prompted fears of a possible rival power."

POPE FIGHT!

I don't see it being much of a fight. Benedict still has a devastating left hook, but his timing is shot, and his footwork has suffered badly in recent years. Francis has the youth, the speed, and the reach. No contest.


Francis only has one lung.  No staying power.  If Benedict rope-a-dopes him, Francis goes down in the 5th.
 
2013-03-14 10:28:54 PM  

fifthhorseman: jso2897: fifthhorseman: I thought this was the most interesting bit in the article: "A visit to his predecessor Benedict XVI at his retreat at Castel Gandolfo outside Rome is also planned, but will not take place in the next couple of days, Father Lombardi said.  The visit to Benedict is important, correspondents say, as the existence of a living retired pope has prompted fears of a possible rival power."

POPE FIGHT!

I don't see it being much of a fight. Benedict still has a devastating left hook, but his timing is shot, and his footwork has suffered badly in recent years. Francis has the youth, the speed, and the reach. No contest.

Francis only has one lung.  No staying power.  If Benedict rope-a-dopes him, Francis goes down in the 5th.


Back when he could still stick and move - sure. Now? Not gonna happen. Ref stops it in the third. Book it - done.
 
2013-03-14 10:40:33 PM  
Time for more pope non-news?  Sure.  There's always time for non-news.  Especially catholic non-news.  Because they look so religiousy.  If pageantry doesn't get you into heaven, I don't want to be right.
 
2013-03-14 11:00:23 PM  

jso2897: Acharne: mongbiohazard: jso2897: Acharne: jso2897: I don't see the complication. I evaluate an institution same as I do a person. When you do good, I'll applaud and support you - when you do bad, I'll condemn and oppose you. What's the big quandary, here?

Have a look at Mother Theresa, the public opinion and adoration. Then compare it to the actual truth of how she lived her life, the conflict is impressive. That's the problem. Most people trust their religious leaders and cannot take themselves the needed step back to see how it is really 'good' or 'bad'. They are too used to being told and not analysing it themselves.

I know about all that - what's your point?

His point was that the Catholic church has a very strong propaganda machine which when coupled with many people's inherent bias to trust their familiar authority figures means few people are honestly doing what you say you do - even when they claim to be. If they really were, they would have little choice but to quit the church in disgust because objectively speaking the church as an organization is patently untrustworthy at the very, very least.

Thank you. That's what I mean.

Yes - but as a response to what I said - which it was - it's meaningless.


No it wasn't. I understood it. So does Mong. When we explained it, you replied with a 'Hmmmm, I don't think so' and then pointed out it was silly to explain the church. I'm not really sure what the deal is here, but we're being pretty clear. I get your point, leave them alone and judge them on their actions. Mong and I were pointing out that while you might be able to do that, most people who are indoctrinated cannot. This is a valid distinction to make, one that Mong and I have made for you. What you do with it, that's up to you. Please don't call it meaningless though.
 
2013-03-14 11:14:01 PM  

Silverstaff: eggrolls: And aside from the few acres that constitute Vatican City, where ISN'T the church an NGO?

The Catholic Church sees itself as far more than just an NGO, it sees itself as the main vessel of spiritual salvation on Earth, given a mission by God Himself to save the souls of the human race.

As an institution they reach back 2000 years, and the legal sovereign status of the Vatican City in international law is NOT what they see as the bedrock of their power.

Pope Francis, in the full context of his statement, is talking about how he wants to ensure that the Church retains its spiritual role and is not just a benevolent NGO, to do more than just feed the hungry and shelter the cold and heal the weak, but to ensure their eternal salvation.


Still doesn't make them part of the government. Looks like Francis is bad at analogy.
 
2013-03-14 11:23:42 PM  

Acharne: jso2897: Acharne: mongbiohazard: jso2897: Acharne: jso2897: I don't see the complication. I evaluate an institution same as I do a person. When you do good, I'll applaud and support you - when you do bad, I'll condemn and oppose you. What's the big quandary, here?

Have a look at Mother Theresa, the public opinion and adoration. Then compare it to the actual truth of how she lived her life, the conflict is impressive. That's the problem. Most people trust their religious leaders and cannot take themselves the needed step back to see how it is really 'good' or 'bad'. They are too used to being told and not analysing it themselves.

I know about all that - what's your point?

His point was that the Catholic church has a very strong propaganda machine which when coupled with many people's inherent bias to trust their familiar authority figures means few people are honestly doing what you say you do - even when they claim to be. If they really were, they would have little choice but to quit the church in disgust because objectively speaking the church as an organization is patently untrustworthy at the very, very least.

Thank you. That's what I mean.

Yes - but as a response to what I said - which it was - it's meaningless.

No it wasn't. I understood it. So does Mong. When we explained it, you replied with a 'Hmmmm, I don't think so' and then pointed out it was silly to explain the church. I'm not really sure what the deal is here, but we're being pretty clear. I get your point, leave them alone and judge them on their actions. Mong and I were pointing out that while you might be able to do that, most people who are indoctrinated cannot. This is a valid distinction to make, one that Mong and I have made for you. What you do with it, that's up to you. Please don't call it meaningless though.


No, no - I didn't mean that it was meaningless to you, or to Mong - only that it was meaningless as a response to what I originally said. And since your Weeners was a response to my post, I thought that might be relevant - not realizing that you and Mong were apparently using my remarks as some sort of placeholder in a conversation in which I was not actually supposed to be participating. You can avoid this confusion in the future by not quoting one of my posts when you actually wish to converse with someone else. I don't doubt that your list of grievances against the Catholic Church are meaningful to you - just not to me. Sorry for butting into you and mongs conversation by tricking you into quoting me as if you were addressing me. Also for failing to hate what you hate. Perhaps you should judge me to be a bad person.
 
2013-03-14 11:37:15 PM  

jso2897: No, no - I didn't mean that it was meaningless to you, or to Mong - only that it was meaningless as a response to what I originally said. And since your Weeners was a response to my post, I thought that might be relevant - not realizing that you and Mong were apparently using my remarks as some sort of placeholder in a conversation in which I was not actually supposed to be participating. You can avoid this confusion in the future by not quoting one of my posts when you actually wish to converse with someone else. I don't doubt that your list of grievances against the Catholic Church are meaningful to you - just not to me. Sorry for butting into you and mongs conversation by tricking you into quoting me as if you were addressing me. Also for failing to hate what you hate. Perhaps you should judge me to be a bad person.


I think part of the problem was the one post did not italicise the statements correctly. I was replying to Mong's reply to you, and I was thanking him for making my point in a more clear fashion. However, it was eaten by Fark and looked odd. No placeholding at all. You asked a question, I made a point in answering, you asked for clarification, Mong clarified it for me (accurately) and then I thanked him for doing that. I appreciated his perspective and yours too. No placeholding and we were most certainly including you in the conversation. It would have been obvious had I previewed the comment better. There was no trickery either.

Anyways. I have read your other posts to others too. It seems pretty clear that your not really trying to have a conversation with anyone about this issue. I get the impression you're more interested in pointing out your apathy about the church and this thread in general. Or at the extreme, you are trying to appear 'morally above, superior to' those who would take umbrage at the church. If interested, you could avoid this confusion in the future by not asking questions you have absolutely no interest in hearing answers for :)

It's all good. Typing is good exercise.
 
2013-03-14 11:54:42 PM  

WTF Indeed: Holy Crap! You mean the leader of a religion that doesn't believe in gay marriage might not belief in gay marriage!!!!


There's not believing in it, and there's being in a position to incite hatred and violence against people who do.

Understand the difference now?
 
2013-03-14 11:57:10 PM  
That's right, get back to fearin' that God. We have no control over you jokers if you don't fear god and feel like you need to confess. More ceremony, more god waffles, get it through your head that your mortal soul is on the line.

Then donate.
 
2013-03-15 12:05:35 AM  

Acharne: Anyways. I have read your other posts to others too. It seems pretty clear that your not really trying to have a conversation with anyone about this issue. I get the impression you're more interested in pointing out your apathy about the church and this thread in general.


Ok - that clarifies it - you simply misunderstand my position. I am not apathetic toward the church - it is a 2000 year-old institution that today comprises about a billion and a half of my fellow human beings. I am ambivalent toward the church. I perceive it as both good and bad, benevolent and malevolent - but by no means insignificant. And I perceive almost ALL institutions and people as such.
The fact that I am a natural born heathen myself doesn't inform me to dismiss faith and those who hold it as irrelevant - the catholic church is still a powerful force in our world, and one that may well adapt and survive for a long time to come.
But in light of what I feel about the matter, I think you can understand why merely enumerating the alleged transgressions of the church doesn't speak effectively to my inability to categorically pass judgment on such a large, long-lived, and complex institution.
And for the record - I don't feel morally superior to anybody. As a moral judge, I would hold myself to be woefully inadequate - which was kind of my entire point. And I wouldn't waste your time if I were disinterested in conversing with you - that's the only reason I responded to you to begin with.
 
2013-03-15 12:07:50 AM  

Phil Moskowitz: That's right, get back to fearin' that God. We have no control over you jokers if you don't fear god and feel like you need to confess. More ceremony, more god waffles, get it through your head that your mortal soul is on the line.

Then donate.


Is it OK if I just fear clowns? Get enough clowns after me, and I'll do whatever you say. Just get those friggin' things away from me.
 
2013-03-15 12:54:02 AM  

jso2897: Acharne: Anyways. I have read your other posts to others too. It seems pretty clear that your not really trying to have a conversation with anyone about this issue. I get the impression you're more interested in pointing out your apathy about the church and this thread in general.

Ok - that clarifies it - you simply misunderstand my position. I am not apathetic toward the church - it is a 2000 year-old institution that today comprises about a billion and a half of my fellow human beings. I am ambivalent toward the church. I perceive it as both good and bad, benevolent and malevolent - but by no means insignificant. And I perceive almost ALL institutions and people as such.
The fact that I am a natural born heathen myself doesn't inform me to dismiss faith and those who hold it as irrelevant - the catholic church is still a powerful force in our world, and one that may well adapt and survive for a long time to come.
But in light of what I feel about the matter, I think you can understand why merely enumerating the alleged transgressions of the church doesn't speak effectively to my inability to categorically pass judgment on such a large, long-lived, and complex institution.
And for the record - I don't feel morally superior to anybody. As a moral judge, I would hold myself to be woefully inadequate - which was kind of my entire point. And I wouldn't waste your time if I were disinterested in conversing with you - that's the only reason I responded to you to begin with.


Cool, I dig. That clarifies much of your position that was not obvious before. I can follow what you're saying now and your position. Keep on not being evil I guess.
 
2013-03-15 10:04:55 AM  

fifthhorseman: jso2897: fifthhorseman: I thought this was the most interesting bit in the article: "A visit to his predecessor Benedict XVI at his retreat at Castel Gandolfo outside Rome is also planned, but will not take place in the next couple of days, Father Lombardi said.  The visit to Benedict is important, correspondents say, as the existence of a living retired pope has prompted fears of a possible rival power."

POPE FIGHT!

I don't see it being much of a fight. Benedict still has a devastating left hook, but his timing is shot, and his footwork has suffered badly in recent years. Francis has the youth, the speed, and the reach. No contest.

Francis only has one lung.  No staying power.  If Benedict ropepope-a-dopes him, Francis goes down in the 5th.


FTFY
 
2013-03-15 11:27:39 AM  

cloud_van_dame: Faith without works is dead.


Indeed.  You do good things because you're a Christian.  You don't do them to become a Christian.  Not even a little.  As a result, in no way, ever, will doing good works get you "part the way there."
 
2013-03-15 03:46:04 PM  

arethereanybeernamesleft: Indeed. You do good things because you're a Christian. You don't do them to become a Christian. Not even a little. As a result, in no way, ever, will doing good works get you "part the way there."


If you're referencing my post from way upthread, I was mainly talking about non-Christians doing good things, and how that could be interpreted in God's judgment.
 
2013-03-15 10:52:05 PM  

Phil Moskowitz: That's right, get back to fearin' that God. We have no control over you jokers if you don't fear god and feel like you need to confess. More ceremony, more god waffles, get it through your head that your mortal soul is on the line.

Then donate.


They have WAFFLES in church now???

"Jesus - now with waffles." I am so there.
 
2013-03-16 12:22:09 AM  
The most awful institution in the history of mankind.  Al-Qaeda isn't even close.  Absolutely opprobrious doctrine put forth by scrofulous people.  Mankind will benefit greatly by disavowing the sinister virgin cult.
 
2013-03-16 01:01:54 AM  

ewurm: The most awful institution in the history of mankind.  Al-Qaeda isn't even close.  Absolutely opprobrious doctrine put forth by scrofulous people.  Mankind will benefit greatly by disavowing the sinister virgin cult.


This is why I support the new evil pope. We don't want progressive popes as people will start acting in a forgiving, benign fashion to Catholism.

Love the Catholic, Hate the religion.
 
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