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(NBC News)   Embalming fluid rejects Chavez   (worldnews.nbcnews.com) divider line 144
    More: Followup, Hugo Chavez, Venezuela, embalming fluid, Maduro, Chinese leaders, world leaders, soviet leader, Communist Party of China  
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20563 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Mar 2013 at 11:24 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-14 03:44:11 PM

FarkedOver: Socialism is when the workers control the means of production.


And in reality, the central party controlled the means of production, while oppressing the working class. Soviet Russia, the People's Republic, every major communist/"socialist" country that has claimed to follow Marxist principles has done so, while committing some of the worst atrocities known to man.

Please, don't try to whitewash history. You look like an idiot when you do so. Shall we ask the Ukrainians how well that "worker control of the means of production" worked for them?
 
2013-03-14 03:50:45 PM

hardinparamedic: Really? Communism was based on internationalism? Because I'm pretty sure in the form it was implemented in, it was based on strong central government control of production and worker output, while also strictly controlling localized economic conditions and marked by rapid, aggressive expansionism and proxy wars in the same manner as the "evil capitalists" were vilified for?


You're thinking of Stalinism.  He advocated socialism in one country which is about as anti-marxist/ anti communist as you can get.  Trotsky was more in line with permanent revolution.

hardinparamedic: Except for the fact that, historically, no "communist" state has ever achieved this. In reality, what they have achieved is a pseudo-capitalistic system in which the central party obtain riches, power, and prestige while oppressing and misleading the common worker - which the centralized party has exhalted above all else as the center of the nation. In addition to this, Communist/"socialist" countries have traditionally executed incredible power and control over the media and over traditional freedoms that modern humanity has come to consider basic rights of man


No "state" has achieved this, which is why I think it is worth working for one day.

hardinparamedic: Social Democratic principles have nothing to do with Marxist Socialism, or Leninistic Communism. They are, in fact, completely in opposition to them due to the requirement of the stripping of human rights from the working class that has been required for every communist nation to rise in power.


As we've established no communist nation has existed.  So we cannot say communism/socialism is the source of the stripping away of rights of the workers.
 
2013-03-14 03:52:35 PM

hardinparamedic: Please, don't try to whitewash history. You look like an idiot when you do so. Shall we ask the Ukrainians how well that "worker control of the means of production" worked for them?


I didn't come in here to defend Stalin or his collectivization (I'm more of a 4th International kind of guy).  Thanks though.  I'm not whitewashing history.  I'm telling you the actual definitions of communism and scientific socialism.
 
2013-03-14 03:53:41 PM

CygnusDarius: WhoopAssWayne: floating around reddit today:

[img823.imageshack.us image 295x445]

Yes, but Reddit is a hive of malcontents, social misfits, and sexual misanthropists.

The only difference of them and us, is that most of us are drunk.


Also most of US are old enough to drink.  Reddit is largely highschool kids.  (despite them creating false statistics showing otherwise, and getting busted doing it)  80% of all posts on reddits front page are made by someone under 19 years old.
 
2013-03-14 03:59:04 PM

hardinparamedic: while committing some of the worst atrocities known to man.


Notice how stats are really kept regarding atrocities committed by capitalist/free market nations? The number is astronomically higher.
 
2013-03-14 04:05:22 PM

FarkedOver: Notice how stats are really kept regarding atrocities committed by capitalist/free market nations? The number is astronomically higher.


I wish someone would just ask the Poles and Ukrainians whether they prefer communism, fascism, or free-market liberalism. They're about the only countries to experience all three in rapid succession.
 
2013-03-14 04:19:43 PM

hardinparamedic: while committing some of the worst atrocities known to man.


SHHHHHHHHHHH!  There are Jews in here, and they can't acknowledge that anyone but them endured such atrocities.
 
2013-03-14 04:31:15 PM

arethereanybeernamesleft: SHHHHHHHHHHH!  There are Jews in here, and they can't acknowledge that anyone but them endured such atrocities.


Go away. If you want to pretend that the holocaust didn't have several factors which made it unique among the genocides in history, I really don't want your help.
 
2013-03-14 04:39:11 PM

FarkedOver: pseudoscientific socialism.

Fixed that for you. There is no "scientific" socialism. There ARE Social Democratic Philosophies, but these in no way resemble the system that Marx or Lenin intended to create.

FarkedOver: Notice how stats are really kept regarding atrocities committed by capitalist/free market nations? The number is astronomically higher


twimg0-a.akamaihd.net

Tell us about the systematic genocides and willful mass murder that pseudo-capitalistic societies across the past two hundred years have engaged in.

Communism, "Leninistic Socialism", and Fascism/Toltarianism by and large have the highest body count, among other horrors.

FarkedOver: As we've established no communist nation has existed.  So we cannot say communism/socialism is the source of the stripping away of rights of the workers.


Communism is unattainable in a modern age. Communes simply cannot produce, independently, the means for self sufficiency in the modern information age.

Ignoring the "No True Scotsman" fallacy here, which in and of itself ignores the fact that every attempt at Communism or Socialism started with the exact philosophies you have espoused and have fallen victim to basic human nature - greed and lust for power - which is made all the more easier by the party being considered both central and infallible.

It's either one, or the other. You cannot have a system which both protects the common worker from being taken advantage of, and also prevents abuse of power from the central bureaucracy.
 
2013-03-14 04:40:35 PM

hardinparamedic: Go away. If you want to pretend that the holocaust didn't have several factors which made it unique among the genocides in history, I really don't want your help.


1.  Wasn't helping you.

2.  Genocides are genocides.  "Unique genocide", when spoken of in the plural, is an automatic oxymoron.  In other words, a single genocide could be unique.  But the manner of death or system that carried it out does not make a genocide unique.  The fact that there have been numerous genocides means that the Holocaust cannot be unique.

3.  No, I am not a Nazi apologist, or any other hyperbolic characterization that you may try to discredit me with.

4.  Get over it, and yourself.

5.  You might be interested to know that the Japanese killed more people in China than the Germans killed Jews.  But hey, I guess if you didn't tattoo them and cremate them, then it's not "unique" enough.
 
2013-03-14 04:48:32 PM

tylerdurden217: I promise that I'm not trolling here. What specifically did Chavez do that was so evil? Great leader? No, but he did focus on poverty, the influence of oil money in politics, human rights, etc. Maybe those efforts were just a failure, but I'm missing why this guy is compared to some of the worst tyrants in history (not on Fark necessarily, but elsewhere)

I'm not a fan, but I'm not pissing on his grave either.


And amassed 2 BILLION dollars in his own personal bank accounts. He focused on the poor (and they are still poor) and the evil corporations alright..and cha-chinged for himself.
 
2013-03-14 04:50:07 PM
hardinparamedic:  This text is now purple:

You guys are arguing with FarkedOver, who posted a big red flag in the Chavez death thread with a "Rest in Peace, Comrade" attached.  You're not going to convince him/her of the errors in communism or socialist or the ideals of the far left.

Useful idiots like him/her will never understand what Farkers like  Maq0r or kittypoo have been trying to tell them - hardcore communist-wannabes are too in love with the dogma and the socialist dream to bother to listen.
 
2013-03-14 04:59:11 PM

Seraphym: seful idiots like him/her will never understand what Farkers like  Maq0r or kittypoo have been trying to tell them - hardcore communist-wannabes are too in love with the dogma and the socialist dream to bother to listen.


Or maybe they're just paid shills and trolls who enjoy the lulz?  You decide.  I'm going with what's behind curtain #2.
 
2013-03-14 05:06:06 PM
msnbcmedia.msn.com

I call "dibs" on the Windex (TM) concession!
 
2013-03-14 05:06:08 PM

Seraphym: hardinparamedic:  This text is now purple:

You guys are arguing with FarkedOver, who posted a big red flag in the Chavez death thread with a "Rest in Peace, Comrade" attached.  You're not going to convince him/her of the errors in communism or socialist or the ideals of the far left.

Useful idiots like him/her will never understand what Farkers like  Maq0r or kittypoo have been trying to tell them - hardcore communist-wannabes are too in love with the dogma and the socialist dream to bother to listen.


Well you can just enjoy your capitalist dream.  Capitalism is great as long as you have the weapons to prop up your system.
 
2013-03-14 05:09:47 PM

Evil Mackerel: They  should encase him in LucCarbonite.


FTFHan

collider.com
 
2013-03-14 05:10:04 PM
Capitalist Venezuela was just sunshine and lollipops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracazo
 
2013-03-14 05:19:31 PM

hardinparamedic: Tell us about the systematic genocides and willful mass murder that pseudo-capitalistic societies across the past two hundred years have engaged in.


I would say all the atrocities committed under the fascist banner fall under the capitalism banner as well.  After all, what is fascism but a capitalist reaction.
 
2013-03-14 05:23:06 PM
Who are these people who feel so strongly for their leaders that they cry and sob and visit their grave?
 
2013-03-14 05:25:30 PM

Alonjar: Who are these people who feel so strongly for their leaders that they cry and sob and visit their grave?


Think about this: Because of Chavez this is the first time some people had access to health care and learned to read..... That's kind of a big deal.  People don't seem to forget that.
 
2013-03-14 05:29:28 PM

Alonjar: Who are these people who feel so strongly for their leaders that they cry and sob and visit their grave?


Republicans at a post-election Romney party.
 
2013-03-14 05:29:47 PM
And the list grows by one. Nothing of value lost.

FarkedOver: I would say all the atrocities committed under the fascist banner fall under the capitalism banner as well.  After all, what is fascism but a capitalist reaction.


And I would point out to you that "capitalism", in the way you seem to use it, would preclude state control over the means and manner of production, and the use of quotas and slave labor as part of genocidal ambitions which those Governments were known to use.

I would also point out that "capitalism", in the way you use it, ignores the fact that a "capitalist" society does not exist anywhere on Earth. In reality, what we have are different forms of pseudocapitalism, where the state does not regulate production and output, but rather regulates the conditions by which products can be sold, and workers can be used.
 
2013-03-14 05:34:58 PM

hardinparamedic: and workers can be used.


That sums up all capitalism right there haha.
 
2013-03-14 05:36:02 PM

FarkedOver: That sums up all capitalism right there haha.


gulaghistory.org

Sums up communism pretty well.
 
2013-03-14 05:50:07 PM

hardinparamedic: FarkedOver: That sums up all capitalism right there haha.

[gulaghistory.org image 700x536]

Sums up communism Stalinism pretty well.


Fixed for accuracy
 
2013-03-14 05:50:54 PM

FarkedOver: Fixed for accuracy


fallacyaday.com
 
2013-03-14 05:52:43 PM

hardinparamedic: FarkedOver: Fixed for accuracy

[fallacyaday.com image 300x300]


So there is no difference between Stalinism or Trotskism? Hell even Maoism or Blanquists?  Thanks for the history lesson professor!
 
2013-03-14 05:58:37 PM

FarkedOver: So there is no difference between Stalinism or Trotskism? Hell even Maoism or Blanquists? Thanks for the history lesson professor!


But every genocide is unique.  This guy sees differences where there are none, and denies them where there are.
 
2013-03-14 06:03:37 PM

hardinparamedic: FarkedOver: That sums up all capitalism right there haha.

[gulaghistory.org image 700x536]

Sums up communism pretty well.


You are aware the gulags existed prior to Bolshevik revolution?  You are aware that many Bolsheviks and Mensheviks were sent to Sibera under the imperialist Czar's orders.

Not defending Stalin, BUT not everyone who went to the gulag was a saint.

I swear to god every death be it from an accidental choking to the flu.... if it happened under a "communist" government it gets attributed as a death as a direct result of those dirty reds.
 
2013-03-14 06:05:59 PM

arethereanybeernamesleft: FarkedOver: So there is no difference between Stalinism or Trotskism? Hell even Maoism or Blanquists? Thanks for the history lesson professor!

But every genocide is unique.  This guy sees differences where there are none, and denies them where there are.


I read your profile.

"I am not a racist (even though I'm from Texas), but I do believe that there is one ethnic group out there that is close to 100% bad."

I hope you aren't serious about that statement man....
 
2013-03-14 06:13:43 PM

hardinparamedic: Of course there are differences. But somehow, your idea of communism will not fall prey to ANY of the problems that their version of communism fell victim to?

Look. lie to yourself, but don't lie to everyone else.


Sadly when Trotsky tried to assert himself over Stalin, he ended up with an ice pick in the back of his skull.

As a trotskyist you can understand why I'm really no fan of Stalin.  He was a state capitalist, not a socialist or communist.  Hell, Stalin hired the Koch brother's father to do infrastructure work in Russia..... where do you think they made their fortune? That's right they made their billions off of daddy and his sucking Rubles from a tyrants cock.

I'm not lying when I say Trotskyism offers the best hope of socialists and workers controlling society.  Instead of socialism in one country Trotsky, rightfully, explains if socialism is going to work, everyone needs to be on board.  I have no illusions that this is an impossible task.  I also have no illusions that capitalism is not the best system humans can achieve.
 
2013-03-14 08:16:42 PM
From the New York Time, worth a read:

Venezuela, More Deadly Than Iraq, Wonders Why

By SIMON ROMERO
Published: August 22, 2010
New York Times

CARACAS, Venezuela - Some here joke that they might be safer if they lived in Baghdad. The numbers bear them out.

In Iraq, a country with about the same population as Venezuela, there were 4,644 civilian deaths from violence in 2009, according to Iraq Body Count; in Venezuela that year, the number of murders climbed above 16,000.

-- New York Times
 
2013-03-14 09:25:49 PM
Just make a wax model of the idiot, stick him in a glass case.  The dopes in that country will most
likely believe it anyway, on until the air conditioner goes off LOL.
 
2013-03-14 10:01:47 PM

MNguy: Big_Fat_Liar:

What's funny is there are people who really believe that is why the US invaded Iraq.

Why did the US invade Iraq?


It was because it was becomming to hot in desert to keep all those troops on hold.

At one point you just have to ignore all Saddams complying and get it over with.

Chavez is an example of what happends of stuff gets left out to long in the sun.
 
2013-03-14 10:55:12 PM

Virtue: "Notice how democracy is bad when the capitalists are voted out.  Whenever the capitalists are voted out it's because the people just don't understand what is good for them so we need to go in there and take it over by force. "

Like notice how the left is all for individual liberty unless they think its bad for them and then its all sacrifice for the greater good.


i2.kym-cdn.com
 
2013-03-14 11:27:33 PM

FarkedOver: hardinparamedic: It's not fascism when our side does it!

Further, we can deconstruct this bit of moronic screed on your part by defining fascism and then defining what socialism is.

Fascism, according to Mussolini is the marriage of corporation and state.

What is socialism?  I'm sure most think is just the government creating a giant welfare state for a bunch of freeloading jerk offs.  Well, historically, that is not what socialism is.  Socialism is when the workers control the means of production.


I realize you're each calling the other wrong and dumb, but personally I'm impressed with both of you.  I'm not sure which of you is right (or "more" right), but it's interesting to read, at the very least.
 
2013-03-14 11:29:23 PM
FTA: "Russian and German scientists have arrived to embalm Chavez and they tell us it's very difficult because the process should have started earlier ... Maybe we can't do it,'' acting President Nicolas Maduro said in televised comments on Wednesday.

Bollocks.

Chavez hoped to be preserved as an eternal symbol of the Bolivarian state. New boy wants to make his mark and take over, it's in his interests to let Chavez rot.
 
2013-03-14 11:51:29 PM

FarkedOver: Sadly when Trotsky tried to assert himself over Stalin, he ended up with an ice pick in the back of his skull.

As a trotskyist you can understand why I'm really no fan of Stalin. He was a state capitalist, not a socialist or communist. Hell, Stalin hired the Koch brother's father to do infrastructure work in Russia..... where do you think they made their fortune? That's right they made their billions off of daddy and his sucking Rubles from a tyrants cock.

I'm not lying when I say Trotskyism offers the best hope of socialists and workers controlling society. Instead of socialism in one country Trotsky, rightfully, explains if socialism is going to work, everyone needs to be on board. I have no illusions that this is an impossible task. I also have no illusions that capitalism is not the best system humans can achieve.


I can understand what you're saying here, but I still disagree with it. I'm unwilling, as a human being, to sell my rights and liberties away under the guise of a "better system" just to stick it to the evil corporations, and in doing so create a system which has historically been immune or, at the very least, openly hostile against checks and balances to central power.

We're going to have to agree to disagree, but I would like to point out that Social Democratic principles which maintain the human rights of all, while still providing a safety net for the lower class are attainable without a single, unified global government, and will probibly take more of a prominance in the United States once the old guard, "ZOMG EVIL SOCIALISM" baby boomers die out.

I actually see our country becoming more like Japan in that aspect, especially in terms of healthcare, as the decades pass.
 
2013-03-15 12:42:59 AM

tylerdurden217: Under Chavez, Venezuelans' quality of life improved according to a UN Index and the poverty rate fell from 48.6 percent in 2002 to 29.5 percent in 2011, according to the U.N. Economic Commission for Latin America."


Much of South America in general saw an economic boom during the same period.  Venezuela actually saw the poorest (least) growth among it's regional neighbors.  It is probably more accurate to say that Venezuela experienced some growth despite Chavez's bizarre economic policies and siphoning off personal fortunes.
 
2013-03-15 02:33:56 AM

FarkedOver: hardinparamedic: Really? Communism was based on internationalism? Because I'm pretty sure in the form it was implemented in, it was based on strong central government control of production and worker output, while also strictly controlling localized economic conditions and marked by rapid, aggressive expansionism and proxy wars in the same manner as the "evil capitalists" were vilified for?

You're thinking of Stalinism. He advocated socialism in one country which is about as anti-marxist/ anti communist as you can get. Trotsky was more in line with permanent revolution.


And what he was supposed to do? Practically

FarkedOver: hardinparamedic: FarkedOver: That sums up all capitalism right there haha.

[gulaghistory.org image 700x536]

Sums up communism pretty well.

You are aware the gulags existed prior to Bolshevik revolution?  You are aware that many Bolsheviks and Mensheviks were sent to Sibera under the imperialist Czar's orders.

Not defending Stalin, BUT not everyone who went to the gulag was a saint.

I swear to god every death be it from an accidental choking to the flu.... if it happened under a "communist" government it gets attributed as a death as a direct result of those dirty reds.


Could you finish sentence "not defending Hitler, but...", pretty pretty please please. I know you can do it
 
2013-03-15 02:35:51 AM
And do you think October revolution was really revolution?
 
2013-03-15 02:56:33 AM

tylerdurden217: This is really good stuff and I appreciate it. When I asked the question of why he was evil in some eyes, I meant it sincerely. I guess I need to read more on the subject. All in all, he sounds to have been more inept and corrupt than "evil", Clearly I know a lot less than you and several other people in this thread.


While conservative propagandists will HAPPILY expand, inflate, exaggerate, and make up crimes he's committed they are still useful sources if you can read between the lines of what was done and what is heavily spun.  Chavez' alliances with dickholes like Ahmadinejad, for example, aren't actually that relevant considering how international politics work, and for another his rampant theft of foreign assets is tempered by the fact that most of those assets were stolen (arguably) from the nation with the usual imperialist bribe-extort-or-steal methods.  Yet he still HAS those alliances and he still stole a lot of shiat (and rather impartial international courts have agreed that he stole it.)   And while most of his political opponents just get beaten by roving gangs of Chavistas (Think "teabagger" but young, fit, and as physically violent as their rhetoric) his actual police still torture and murder folk under false pretenses.

It's an interesting subject to me, but that's because I'm a damned dirty politics junkie.


FarkedOver: TheBigJerk

Everything you accuse FARC of the Right Wing Paramilitary (government and US backed) have done, if not more-so.


Incredibly vague, inaccurate, and responding to things I'm pretty sure I never even said.  I didn't talk about FARC that much.  Why don't you just dive in and embarrass yourself telling us about FARC and how awesome I guess they are?  That'll be more interesting than this stalin-trotsky-communism-blaaaaaah going on.
 
2013-03-15 05:29:23 AM
Colombia is where cocaine
 
2013-03-15 12:10:38 PM

ransack.: Colombia is where cocaine


...?

Why yes, yes it is.   *pats head*
 
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