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(Talking Points Memo)   Lt. General: "There are no rapists in foxholes" Congress: "Oh yeah? Let's check that out, shall we?" Military: "Well...fark" Congress: "Exactly"   ( divider line
    More: Interesting, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, Uniform Code of Military Justice, court martial, Jackie Speier, inspector generals, rapists, U.S. Naval, reasonable doubt  
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5700 clicks; posted to Politics » on 14 Mar 2013 at 9:35 AM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»

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2013-03-14 07:21:38 PM  
3 votes:
Does anyone not recall the notorious thread on Reddit last year where a man posted admitting that he was a rapist, and liked doing it, and had been getting away with it for quite awhile?  It was quite disturbing to read about it, and some of the comments were terrifying.

Most of the women I've known with whom I've had conversations about sexual assault have confirmed that they have either been raped, or else were molested as young girls.  I've had both happen to me, and I'm even homely (something for which I've frequently been very grateful, as it's protected me from a lot of the sexual harassment and assault that I see happen to othe women).  I've also known men who've told me that they have friends who've admitted to them that they've raped women, and these were not 'monsters hiding in the bushes', but were everyday guys who feel that women owe them sex.  A few of these men told me that they were very disturbed in their interactions with these friend-rapists, since they knew that criticizing the rapist would provoke a hostile reaction.  One guy told me that he lost a group of friends with whom he'd socialized for years because he told them that what they'd done to one young woman (a manipulated gang-bang) was terrible.

Of course, anecdotes will be dismissed, and any woman who says anything like this is immediately condemned as a man-hating feminazi.  But some of you guys, if you were really honest with yourself, know that there are bros in your social circle who've done this sort of thing, and they're getting away with it scot-free.
2013-03-14 11:27:18 AM  
3 votes:

markfara: In the military, just as in society as a whole, there are women who falsely accuse men of rape. These men can and do have their lives ruined.

There are people who are falsely accused of stealing and selling drugs and other felonies.  These people can and do have their lives ruined.  Why single out rape?
2013-03-15 01:35:04 AM  
2 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: neversubmit: WTH! Somebody doesn't like rape.

How 'Teach Men Not to Rape' Made Fox News Viewers Lose Their Minds

And so it was in this looking glass world that Democratic strategist and rape survivor Zerlina Maxwell entered this week, appearing on the Hannity show with a radical notion: rather than tell women to avoid being raped, how about we teach men not to rape?

Choosing one solution "rather than" another should infuriate anyone who cares about women's safety.  Men are already taught not to rape. Telling women they shouldn't have to learn how to avoid rape is farking irresponsible and just plain stupid.

Would you care to explain?

Here I have an article explaining some of how American culture trains men to hate women. (
"...see whore you're the kinda girl that I'da
Assault and rape and figure why not try to make your pussy wider
fark you with an umbrella then open it up while that shiats inside ya"

Eminem in the song "Stay Wide Awake"
 ) That's Eminem. One of the most prominent singers in America. Here's a Top 20 list of misogynistic songs (not sure whether Beastie Boys made that song ironically or not, but yeah, it fits).

But hey, that's just songwriters--you know, rap stars, the rock stars of our day and one of the prime enculturation forces. Music can't make someone a rapist, right? So let's look at joking. Hmm...that's a lot of sexist jokes...hell, the first page has a 'joke' supporting domestic violence.

But hey, it's just comedy, and we do blur the lines there. So let's look at politics. Surely our elected leaders are polite to women...not like anyone's calling a War on...women...or anything...

...Hmm. That's an  awful lot of people we admire as a culture, isn't it? An awful lot of what anthropologists call 'enculturating forces'--those things that teach you how to live your life. Sure, most of them are just misogynist, not outright rape-supporters (except some elected leaders). But rape isn't usually about sex--it's about violence. About hating someone.

About, in fact, misogyny.

So who's teaching boys not to rape again? Anyone? Bueller?

/Imho, the worst thing we do to our boys is teach them that being macho is being aggressive or a fighter. I'm nonviolent, and I have that option--the option of ethics--because society gave it to me. I can't imagine being told I'm less than a woman because I chose to behave ethically, or even non-aggressively. That must be hell.
2013-03-14 08:06:21 PM  
2 votes:

Huggermugger: Of course, anecdotes will be dismissed, and any woman who says anything like this is immediately condemned as a man-hating feminazi. But some of you guys, if you were really honest with yourself, know that there are bros in your social circle who've done this sort of thing, and they're getting away with it scot-free.

Yup. I think an even bigger factor (than what I posted above) in anti-rape campaigns' success is in creating an environment where rapists can't expect to be tolerated and rape victims can expect to be supported. Where good guys feel empowered to tell off (or report) their bros for hurting women. Where women know people will have their back if they come forward.
2013-03-14 03:56:58 PM  
2 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: Men are already taught not to rape.

No they're not.  But when they tried an actual ad campaign aimed at teaching men not to rape, the numbers dropped 10% in a really short period of time.
Give these sort of educational campaigns a few years and we may really put a serious dent in the overwhelming numbers there are now.

'Don't Be That Guy' ad campaign cuts Vancouver sex assaults by 10 per cent in 2011

inourwordsblog.files.wordpress.comView Full Size
2013-03-14 01:03:38 PM  
2 votes:
Rape requires no evidence to convict, so you have to prove you are innocent.

That is an extraordinary claim that overlooks the vast majority of sexual assault claims that never make it to trial, due to lack of prosecutable evidence.
2013-03-14 10:48:00 AM  
2 votes:

markfara: Rape is a problem. It was a problem when I served in the Army in the late 70s.

That said, women do sometimes accuse men of rape when they in fact were not raped.

That is all.

The number of women that are raped in the military far, far outweighs the number of false accusations. Like 100,000:1 or more. Seems you being quite disingenuous.

For anyone who is interested in this topic I highly recommend the recent documentary The Invisible War. The actions by the military will astound and anger you where they protect the rapist/abuser and blame the victim.  The estimate is that over 500,000 women AND MEN have been raped or sexually assaulted in the last 25-30 years (I don't remember the exact timeline).  Many go unreported because the perpetrators are those who you have to report the assault/rape to or their friends.  Investigations are closed with no action taken and victims punished all the time. It is really scary and incredibly how protected serial rapists are in the military, especially to this day.
2013-03-14 10:17:14 AM  
2 votes:

ModernPrimitive01: and this is why women shouldn't serve in the military

OR, you know, dudes could stop being rapists.

/not saying all dudes are rapists
2013-03-14 10:12:29 AM  
2 votes:

ModernPrimitive01: and this is why women shouldn't serve in the military

Any large organization that consists of less than about 40% women (including in top positions of authority) will tend to treat women badly.

As a modern primitive, you of all people should know this.
2013-03-15 06:22:49 PM  
1 vote:

BarkingUnicorn: Of course, the whole story could be made up. "Jesse" could be a slut-shaming guy who invented this tale and tacked on a conclusion that says, "Stop acting like an irresponsible whore."

It's a plausible story. Regardless, it's basically a thought experiment for the purposes of our discussion at this point.
2013-03-15 06:21:36 PM  
1 vote:

BarkingUnicorn: Every time, the matter devolves into "who's at fault." What's wrong with you people? I am talking about preventing rape, not assigning blame. This chick didn't do her part and the result was a very rape-like experience for her. Even she figured that out in her conclusion.

Dude, you're saying the girl didn't do "her part". This implies that she has some moral or social responsibility for avoiding rape; according to you, she did not fulfill this "responsibility", and quasi-rape occurred. I reiterate: her foolishness may increase the likelihood of crime, but the social contract does not require her to meet an arbitrary standard of prudence before crimes against her are not OK. She has no duty in this case to avoid risk.

I'm not against giving people advice to increase their chances of avoiding crime (rape or otherwise), though you have to avoid seeming accusatory. And especially in the public aftermath of a crime, it does NOT help to focus on that advice rather than on collaring the perp and working to create an environment where rapists can't thrive.
2013-03-15 05:55:11 PM  
1 vote:

BarkingUnicorn: My point is the same one I've been making all along, and now you seem to agree with it. Rape prevention is the responsibility of women as well as men.


A woman talked about having consensual kinky sex with a guy. She had done things like this before safely. The guy ignored her clearly expressed limitations to consent, several times, and abased her outside the context of kink play. By her own account, what happened was not "rape", but was farked up and very uncomfortable nonetheless.
Did she put herself into a dangerous situation? Yes. Is it her moral *fault* that she was abused?  Fark no. There is nothing in the story that makes the guy any less guilty or her in any way culpable. She was perhaps foolish, but a person's foolishness is never carte blanche to commit crimes against them. The just-world fallacy is a big problem.

I guarandamntee you that women know all of the oft-repeated "watch your drink, watch your friends, be careful in dark places, have your keys out" advice already. It is at best stupendously unhelpful and at worst deeply insulting when "well she shouldn't have been in that situation" is so commonly the first public response to accounts of rape. Combating that attitude is where men and women can help to prevent rape, by taking away rapists' confidence that their victims will not be taken seriously.

Rapists don't materialize out of thin air. They are not a force of nature. We shouldn't view their crimes as if they are.
2013-03-15 03:20:42 PM  
1 vote:

BarkingUnicorn: Mirror neuron theory is tentative, at best. It does not suggest any connection to compassion; it's related to learning through imitation.

I'm not going to discuss blame and punishment after rape occurs. I'm concerned about preventing rape. Men and women should do all they can to prevent rape. To say women shouldn't have to is farking stupid.

There's a difference between preventing rape and merely avoiding it.
Women, like men, have a duty to understand how consent works, support victims, and speak up when friends say/do rapey things. These actions help to discourage and prevent rape.

Women and men do not have a duty to stay indoors after a certain hour, or not dress "revealingly", or not get intoxicated.
These actions, in some cases, may help them to avoid rape. But the rapist is still out there, and still a problem.
2013-03-14 06:00:28 PM  
1 vote:

Dr Dreidel: Marcus Aurelius: BarkingUnicorn: Men are already taught not to rape

Not sure if serious.jpg

I wasn't specifically taught not to murder (well I was, but by my religious schooling, not by the American government - and before you get started, I'm talking about a "Don't Murder" lesson plan, not a moral lesson that "all law comes from god; atheists have no morals"). I also wasn't specifically taught not to embezzle. I was, oddly enough, specifically warned - at least once per month/school year - that drugs would absolutely fark up my life the very first time a friend even considered looking at them.

We're not taught in schools to not break specific laws (parse THAT) usually, but there is definitely a very strong "be nice to others" streak throughout our educational system. You think, as focused as we've gotten on schoolyard bullying, that kids can get by without realizing that rape is both morally wrong AND illegal?

// do they have a "List of Don't"s a mile farking long at every school?
// we teach people to avoid perilous situations - robbery, rape and murder being the most common
// you think it sucks we need to teach people how to avoid dangerous situations? Me too. Would that no one ever ran the risk of being raped.
// tl;dr - BarkingUnicorn is right about Olson Johnson's being right!

And yet there are those among us who regard the rules more like loose guidelines.
2013-03-14 04:24:20 PM  
1 vote:

Super_pope: Any time you parrot this line, what you're really saying is, "Instead of doing X, why don't we just make bad people into good people?"  Uh... I dunno.  That's a pretty farking huge question isn't it?  Date rape is a different animal and we've made some progress at raising awareness and cutting down on that, but as far as the violent assault type stuff goes... instead of telling people to avoid getting murdered, why don't we just teach everyone not to murder?

You may be making this out to be far more binary than it actually is.  Assuming a continuum of "Definitely gonna rape everyone, hide yo kids hide yo wife" to "Would never rape anyone ever" the goal is to catch the people in the "Willing to rationalize non-consentual sex into being okay under certain conditions" section and push them closer to "Would never rape anyone ever".

This is what is meant by "Teach people not to rape" (Yes, females can rape males, or other females, not to mention hermaphrodites or other non-sex normative humans....What I mean to say is, it's not just a 'male' problem).  This isn't going to catch many of the violent sociopath meany-pants people out there.  But they aren't the targets, they're too far into "Hide yo kids" land for that type of strategy to be effective (as you said).
2013-03-14 01:40:11 PM  
1 vote:

No Such Agency: "Sir, I believe that Private Smith's sexual assault complaint should have been investigated instead of dismissed.  There's evidence that..."
"That will be all Sergeant."
"But sir,"
"I said that will be all, Corporal."

/or am I totally wrong about the military here?

"Captain, my Soldier has made an accusation of sexual assault and wants an investigation."

"No, Sergeant."

"Can you put that in writing sir?"


"Because when I use the Battalion Commander's open door policy to inquire as to what level of information should be required to have such an investigation, I want to be able to cite why you denied it."

The Captain has a choice between three options, straight up shut me down (as you suggest), write down their rationale, or allow the investigation.

If they shut me down I have even more ammunition when I go to the LTC at Battalion ("Hey there Sir, I'm trying to take care of my Soldier here and my Commander won't even tell me what it is that is making the investigation not happen...").  If they write down their rationale, they might shoot themselves in the foot when I go to the LTC ("Hey there Sir, I'm trying to take care of my Soldier and my Commander said I need X Y and Z to do so... Is that appropriate based on A B and C Battalion policies and M N and O regulations?").  If they allow the investigation, I win.

Rinse repeat at all levels necessary to resolve the problem.  You can't tell a subordinate that they can't talk to your boss.  If that subordinate is right, and that's the key, you have to be *RIGHT*, then that subordinate can fight up to a level that finally recognizes it and makes the investigation happen.  A Sergeant willing to be noisy enough about a problem can solve it, if they are *RIGHT*.  It doesn't matter how stupid the chain of command is being, they can eventually win.
2013-03-14 10:47:58 AM  
1 vote:
This is my rifle, this is my gun.
This is for fighting, this is for RAPE.
2013-03-14 10:33:48 AM  
1 vote:
Rape is a problem. It was a problem when I served in the Army in the late 70s.

That said, women do sometimes accuse men of rape when they in fact were not raped.

That is all.
2013-03-14 10:15:44 AM  
1 vote:

ModernPrimitive01: and this is why women shouldn't serve in the military

Women aren't the ones doing all the rape.

Kick the men out.
2013-03-14 09:43:40 AM  
1 vote:
Whatever, it's not like Tailhook was a quarter-century ago...
2013-03-14 09:38:18 AM  
1 vote:
Ah, hello. Well first of all I'd like to apologize for the behaviour of certain of my colleagues you may have seen earlier, but they are from broken homes, circus families and so on and they are in no way representative of the new modern improved British Navy US Air Force. They are a small vociferous minority; and may I take this opportunity of emphasizing that there is no cannibalism in the British Navy US Air Force. Absolutely none, and when I say none, I mean there is a certain amount, more than we are prepared to admit, but all new ratings are warned that if they wake up in the morning and find any toothmarks at all anywhere on their bodies, they're to tell me immediately so that I can immediately take every measure to hush the whole thing up. And, finally, necrophilia is right out.
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