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(Talking Points Memo)   Lt. General: "There are no rapists in foxholes" Congress: "Oh yeah? Let's check that out, shall we?" Military: "Well...fark" Congress: "Exactly"   (talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 126
    More: Interesting, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, Uniform Code of Military Justice, court martial, Jackie Speier, inspector generals, rapists, U.S. Naval, reasonable doubt  
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5688 clicks; posted to Politics » on 14 Mar 2013 at 9:35 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-15 12:50:55 AM
Does anyone know if there's any basis to this statement? I tried finding a citation but not having much luck.

"The average rape lasts three hours."

Because when you hear that, and realize what that actually entails, and think about what it means for a person to have to go through that for that long. . .

And then you laugh at that gun support poster that says "Murder is forever. A rape lasts 30 seconds."

No, a woman doesn't have to deal with her murder after it's over. She has to carry the rape for the rest of her life. BIG difference, dipshiats.
 
2013-03-15 01:24:23 AM

Peki: No, a woman doesn't have to deal with her murder after it's over. She has to carry the rape for the rest of her life. BIG difference, dipshiats.


FWIW, the idea of that (joke) ad was to say murdering the rapist was worse than being raped, not your interpretation.

Huggermugger: if you were really honest with yourself, know that there are bros in your social circle who've done this sort of thing, and they're getting away with it scot-free


I don't have any bros in my social circle
 
2013-03-15 01:35:04 AM

BarkingUnicorn: neversubmit: WTH! Somebody doesn't like rape.

How 'Teach Men Not to Rape' Made Fox News Viewers Lose Their Minds

And so it was in this looking glass world that Democratic strategist and rape survivor Zerlina Maxwell entered this week, appearing on the Hannity show with a radical notion: rather than tell women to avoid being raped, how about we teach men not to rape?

Choosing one solution "rather than" another should infuriate anyone who cares about women's safety.  Men are already taught not to rape. Telling women they shouldn't have to learn how to avoid rape is farking irresponsible and just plain stupid.


Would you care to explain?

Here I have an article explaining some of how American culture trains men to hate women. (
"...see whore you're the kinda girl that I'da
Assault and rape and figure why not try to make your pussy wider
fark you with an umbrella then open it up while that shiats inside ya"


Eminem in the song "Stay Wide Awake"
 ) That's Eminem. One of the most prominent singers in America. Here's a Top 20 list of misogynistic songs (not sure whether Beastie Boys made that song ironically or not, but yeah, it fits).

But hey, that's just songwriters--you know, rap stars, the rock stars of our day and one of the prime enculturation forces. Music can't make someone a rapist, right? So let's look at joking. Hmm...that's a lot of sexist jokes...hell, the first page has a 'joke' supporting domestic violence.

But hey, it's just comedy, and we do blur the lines there. So let's look at politics. Surely our elected leaders are polite to women...not like anyone's calling a War on...women...or anything...

...Hmm. That's an  awful lot of people we admire as a culture, isn't it? An awful lot of what anthropologists call 'enculturating forces'--those things that teach you how to live your life. Sure, most of them are just misogynist, not outright rape-supporters (except some elected leaders). But rape isn't usually about sex--it's about violence. About hating someone.

About, in fact, misogyny.

So who's teaching boys not to rape again? Anyone? Bueller?

/Imho, the worst thing we do to our boys is teach them that being macho is being aggressive or a fighter. I'm nonviolent, and I have that option--the option of ethics--because society gave it to me. I can't imagine being told I'm less than a woman because I chose to behave ethically, or even non-aggressively. That must be hell.
 
2013-03-15 01:49:06 AM

Brainsick: Peki: No, a woman doesn't have to deal with her murder after it's over. She has to carry the rape for the rest of her life. BIG difference, dipshiats.

FWIW, the idea of that (joke) ad was to say murdering the rapist was worse than being raped, not your interpretation.


No, actually, I got exactly what the ad was saying. It's saying that killing someone in self-defense (or what they are calling "murder") is worse than dealing with what they think is 30 seconds of rape. It's not. It's, on average, a three-hour long rape, and a lifetime of dealing with it, while the victim of a murder doesn't really have to deal with it ever again.
 
2013-03-15 02:23:29 AM
Why would ANYONE want to force sex onto someone that did not want it?  I have always failed to understand this at all. 

I will readily admit that in my mind, most women that I meet I would like to play "hide the salimi" with, but the ones that I consider my true friends, I would not want to damage a friendship for a quick roll in the hay.
 
2013-03-15 03:20:29 AM

PsiChick: BarkingUnicorn: neversubmit: WTH! Somebody doesn't like rape.

How 'Teach Men Not to Rape' Made Fox News Viewers Lose Their Minds

And so it was in this looking glass world that Democratic strategist and rape survivor Zerlina Maxwell entered this week, appearing on the Hannity show with a radical notion: rather than tell women to avoid being raped, how about we teach men not to rape?

Choosing one solution "rather than" another should infuriate anyone who cares about women's safety.  Men are already taught not to rape. Telling women they shouldn't have to learn how to avoid rape is farking irresponsible and just plain stupid.

Would you care to explain?


Explain what?  You're the only person who hasn't edited my comment above to cunningly focus only on men and ignore women's role in preventing rape.  But your entire reply focused only on that one statement of mine.  I think you're intelligent enough to read what you quoted and understand what I said.  But you've got to stop seeing only what you want to see.

As for your reply, which was too long to quote, I'll say this:  if pop culture was the only source of rape education, all men would be rapists.  But the vast majority are not.  Where did they learn not to rape?
 
2013-03-15 03:39:29 AM
Psi Chick is too deep in academia. It's impossible to talk with her outside of that frame. Let it go, BU.
 
2013-03-15 03:43:29 AM

doglover: Psi Chick is too deep in academia. It's impossible to talk with her outside of that frame. Let it go, BU.


I wrote also for all the others who selectively edited my comment.  At least Psi Chick has the decency not to pull that sort of stunt.
 
2013-03-15 03:56:10 AM

BarkingUnicorn: doglover: Psi Chick is too deep in academia. It's impossible to talk with her outside of that frame. Let it go, BU.

I wrote also for all the others who selectively edited my comment.  At least Psi Chick has the decency not to pull that sort of stunt.


She's smart, but impossible to talk to about THIS subject.

You'd have better luck gettin' me to say something good about cilantro.

/devil's soap weed
 
2013-03-15 04:09:45 AM

doglover: BarkingUnicorn: doglover: Psi Chick is too deep in academia. It's impossible to talk with her outside of that frame. Let it go, BU.

I wrote also for all the others who selectively edited my comment.  At least Psi Chick has the decency not to pull that sort of stunt.

She's smart, but impossible to talk to about THIS subject.


Hell, everyone who thinks that preventing rape is solely men's responsibility is impossible to talk to. I fear for their daughters.
 
2013-03-15 02:08:53 PM

doglover: Psi Chick is too deep in academia. It's impossible to talk with her outside of that frame. Let it go, BU.


So I know too much about my topic for you to win your argument? Why, thank you, I'm quite proud of my education, but you might want to try a little of your own if you're having trouble keeping up with me. In this day and age, being uneducated is just sort of sad, and there really are a lot of free classes you can take if you're having trouble with that.

BarkingUnicorn: Explain what?  You're the only person who hasn't edited my comment above to cunningly focus only on men and ignore women's role in preventing rape.  But your entire reply focused only on that one statement of mine.  I think you're intelligent enough to read what you quoted and understand what I said.  But you've got to stop seeing only what you want to see.

As for your reply, which was too long to quote, I'll say this:  if pop culture was the only source of rape education, all men would be rapists.  But the vast majority are not.  Where did they learn not to rape?


Right, let's get technical. First, you're right, the vast majority of men or women in any culture are not rapists, and do not commit any atrocity that a society as a whole does. Nazi Germany, for example (yeah, yeah, Godwin, but it's a good example), was a  society that committed many atrocities, but  the average person--in fact, the  majority of the populace--did  not do that. And, if they'd had a choice where either saving or killing a Jew would have had no consequences, probably would have chosen to save them.

So, why is that? Because of something called 'mirror neurons'. Basically, they're little cells in your brain that make you wince when someone else gets kicked in the balls. It's evolution's way of making sure we don't kill each other. They  can be overridden, but the vast majority of the time, for the vast majority of people, it is hard to hurt another human being, and that's because of your brain.

Now, we're not discussing people who are neurologically typical and psychologically healthy. We're discussing rapists. (Yes, you and I both referred to 'boys' and 'men', but I sincerely hope it was obvious that neither of us were actually claiming all men\boys are rapists.) We  already know there's something screwing that up. For  that subset of the population, my question remains: Who, exactly, is teaching them not to rape?

BarkingUnicorn: Hell, everyone who thinks that preventing rape is solely men's responsibility is impossible to talk to. I fear for their daughters.


Sorry to double-quote you, but this is actually an interesting idea. So who do you think legally gets punished when a rape occurs? I mean, if it's not  solely the rapist's (either gender) responsibility to not rape...the rape victim gets jail time, right? Just like when your car gets stolen, you get fined for putting it in a bad neighborhood, right? After all, it was your responsibility to prevent the car getting stolen.
 
2013-03-15 03:00:40 PM

PsiChick: As for your reply, which was too long to quote, I'll say this: if pop culture was the only source of rape education, all men would be rapists. But the vast majority are not. Where did they learn not to rape?

Right, let's get technical. First, you're right, the vast majority of men or women in any culture are not rapists, and do not commit any atrocity that a society as a whole does. Nazi Germany, for example (yeah, yeah, Godwin, but it's a good example), was a society that committed many atrocities, but the average person--in fact, the majority of the populace--did not do that. And, if they'd had a choice where either saving or killing a Jew would have had no consequences, probably would have chosen to save them.

So, why is that? Because of something called 'mirror neurons'. Basically, they're little cells in your brain that make you wince when someone else gets kicked in the balls. It's evolution's way of making sure we don't kill each other. They can be overridden, but the vast majority of the time, for the vast majority of people, it is hard to hurt another human being, and that's because of your brain.

Now, we're not discussing people who are neurologically typical and psychologically healthy. We're discussing rapists. (Yes, you and I both referred to 'boys' and 'men', but I sincerely hope it was obvious that neither of us were actually claiming all men\boys are rapists.) We already know there's something screwing that up. For that subset of the population, my question remains: Who, exactly, is teaching them not to rape?

BarkingUnicorn: Hell, everyone who thinks that preventing rape is solely men's responsibility is impossible to talk to. I fear for their daughters.

Sorry to double-quote you, but this is actually an interesting idea. So who do you think legally gets punished when a rape occurs? I mean, if it's not solely the rapist's (either gender) responsibility to not rape...the rape victim gets jail time, right? Just like when your ...


Mirror neuron theory is tentative, at best.  It does not suggest any connection to compassion; it's related to learning through imitation.

I'm not going to discuss blame and punishment after rape occurs.  I'm concerned about preventing rape.  Men and women should do all they can to prevent rape.  To say women shouldn't have to is farking stupid.
 
2013-03-15 03:14:09 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Mirror neuron theory is tentative, at best.  It does not suggest any connection to compassion; it's related to learning through imitation.

I'm not going to discuss blame and punishment after rape occurs.  I'm concerned about preventing rape.  Men and women should do all they can to prevent rape.  To say women shouldn't have to is farking stupid.


Then let's go back to what we can both agree on: For some segment of the population, normal enculturating forces do not work, and that segment's size can be changed by enculturating forces. Now, I just provided three examples of enculturating forces that, past age ten or so, are  supposed to be more powerful than things like parenting or faith leaders. So what examples can you provide of equal power that would counter it, to support your original claim?

Well, blame and punishment indicate responsibility, but okay, let's get rid of that. Is anyone  actually suggesting women have no responsibility to prevent rape?
 
2013-03-15 03:20:42 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Mirror neuron theory is tentative, at best. It does not suggest any connection to compassion; it's related to learning through imitation.

I'm not going to discuss blame and punishment after rape occurs. I'm concerned about preventing rape. Men and women should do all they can to prevent rape. To say women shouldn't have to is farking stupid.


There's a difference between preventing rape and merely avoiding it.
Women, like men, have a duty to understand how consent works, support victims, and speak up when friends say/do rapey things. These actions help to discourage and prevent rape.

Women and men do not have a duty to stay indoors after a certain hour, or not dress "revealingly", or not get intoxicated.
These actions, in some cases, may help them to avoid rape. But the rapist is still out there, and still a problem.
 
2013-03-15 04:43:38 PM

PsiChick: BarkingUnicorn: Mirror neuron theory is tentative, at best.  It does not suggest any connection to compassion; it's related to learning through imitation.

I'm not going to discuss blame and punishment after rape occurs.  I'm concerned about preventing rape.  Men and women should do all they can to prevent rape.  To say women shouldn't have to is farking stupid.

Then let's go back to what we can both agree on: For some segment of the population, normal enculturating forces do not work, and that segment's size can be changed by enculturating forces. Now, I just provided three examples of enculturating forces that, past age ten or so, are  supposed to be more powerful than things like parenting or faith leaders. So what examples can you provide of equal power that would counter it, to support your original claim?

Well, blame and punishment indicate responsibility, but okay, let's get rid of that. Is anyone  actually suggesting women have no responsibility to prevent rape?


1. I said that men are already taught not to rape, not that all of them learn or that such teachings are more "powerful" (prevail over) pop culture.

2. Yes; throughout this and every thread about rape, there are many who claim that women shouldn't have to do a damned thing to prevent it.  There's an example immediately below your reply.

A link was just submitted to this story not long ago that ludicrously shows where that stupidity can lead.  The author should be kept on a leash at all times; she is far too dumb to roam freely.  I do not want to believe this tale is true!
 
2013-03-15 04:46:01 PM

Inchoate: BarkingUnicorn: Mirror neuron theory is tentative, at best. It does not suggest any connection to compassion; it's related to learning through imitation.

I'm not going to discuss blame and punishment after rape occurs. I'm concerned about preventing rape. Men and women should do all they can to prevent rape. To say women shouldn't have to is farking stupid.

There's a difference between preventing rape and merely avoiding it.
Women, like men, have a duty to understand how consent works, support victims, and speak up when friends say/do rapey things. These actions help to discourage and prevent rape.

Women and men do not have a duty to stay indoors after a certain hour, or not dress "revealingly", or not get intoxicated.
These actions, in some cases, may help them to avoid rape. But the rapist is still out there, and still a problem.


Go read this incredible tale that was submitted an hour or so ago. It's an absurd (and hopefully fictitious) example of where your argument leads.
 
2013-03-15 05:31:26 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Go read this incredible tale that was submitted an hour or so ago. It's an absurd (and hopefully fictitious) example of where your argument leads.


I read it.
The guy was an asshole and I wish the girl had been more assertive. What's your point?
 
2013-03-15 05:40:46 PM

Inchoate: BarkingUnicorn: Go read this incredible tale that was submitted an hour or so ago. It's an absurd (and hopefully fictitious) example of where your argument leads.

I read it.
The guy was an asshole and I wish the girl had been more assertive. What's your point?


My point is the same one I've been making all along, and now you seem to agree with it.  Rape prevention is the responsibility of women as well as men.
 
2013-03-15 05:55:11 PM

BarkingUnicorn: My point is the same one I've been making all along, and now you seem to agree with it. Rape prevention is the responsibility of women as well as men.


uh

A woman talked about having consensual kinky sex with a guy. She had done things like this before safely. The guy ignored her clearly expressed limitations to consent, several times, and abased her outside the context of kink play. By her own account, what happened was not "rape", but was farked up and very uncomfortable nonetheless.
Did she put herself into a dangerous situation? Yes. Is it her moral *fault* that she was abused?  Fark no. There is nothing in the story that makes the guy any less guilty or her in any way culpable. She was perhaps foolish, but a person's foolishness is never carte blanche to commit crimes against them. The just-world fallacy is a big problem.

I guarandamntee you that women know all of the oft-repeated "watch your drink, watch your friends, be careful in dark places, have your keys out" advice already. It is at best stupendously unhelpful and at worst deeply insulting when "well she shouldn't have been in that situation" is so commonly the first public response to accounts of rape. Combating that attitude is where men and women can help to prevent rape, by taking away rapists' confidence that their victims will not be taken seriously.

Rapists don't materialize out of thin air. They are not a force of nature. We shouldn't view their crimes as if they are.
 
2013-03-15 06:05:08 PM

Inchoate: BarkingUnicorn: My point is the same one I've been making all along, and now you seem to agree with it. Rape prevention is the responsibility of women as well as men.

uh

A woman talked about having consensual kinky sex with a guy. She had done things like this before safely. The guy ignored her clearly expressed limitations to consent, several times, and abased her outside the context of kink play. By her own account, what happened was not "rape", but was farked up and very uncomfortable nonetheless.
Did she put herself into a dangerous situation? Yes. Is it her moral *fault* that she was abused?  Fark no. There is nothing in the story that makes the guy any less guilty or her in any way culpable. She was perhaps foolish, but a person's foolishness is never carte blanche to commit crimes against them. The just-world fallacy is a big problem.

I guarandamntee you that women know all of the oft-repeated "watch your drink, watch your friends, be careful in dark places, have your keys out" advice already. It is at best stupendously unhelpful and at worst deeply insulting when "well she shouldn't have been in that situation" is so commonly the first public response to accounts of rape. Combating that attitude is where men and women can help to prevent rape, by taking away rapists' confidence that their victims will not be taken seriously.

Rapists don't materialize out of thin air. They are not a force of nature. We shouldn't view their crimes as if they are.


Every time, the matter devolves into "who's at fault."  What's wrong with you people?  I am talking about preventing rape, not assigning blame.  This chick didn't do her part and the result was a very rape-like experience for her.  Even she figured that out in her conclusion.
 
2013-03-15 06:11:28 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Inchoate: BarkingUnicorn: My point is the same one I've been making all along, and now you seem to agree with it. Rape prevention is the responsibility of women as well as men.

uh

A woman talked about having consensual kinky sex with a guy. She had done things like this before safely. The guy ignored her clearly expressed limitations to consent, several times, and abased her outside the context of kink play. By her own account, what happened was not "rape", but was farked up and very uncomfortable nonetheless.
Did she put herself into a dangerous situation? Yes. Is it her moral *fault* that she was abused?  Fark no. There is nothing in the story that makes the guy any less guilty or her in any way culpable. She was perhaps foolish, but a person's foolishness is never carte blanche to commit crimes against them. The just-world fallacy is a big problem.

I guarandamntee you that women know all of the oft-repeated "watch your drink, watch your friends, be careful in dark places, have your keys out" advice already. It is at best stupendously unhelpful and at worst deeply insulting when "well she shouldn't have been in that situation" is so commonly the first public response to accounts of rape. Combating that attitude is where men and women can help to prevent rape, by taking away rapists' confidence that their victims will not be taken seriously.

Rapists don't materialize out of thin air. They are not a force of nature. We shouldn't view their crimes as if they are.

Every time, the matter devolves into "who's at fault."  What's wrong with you people?  I am talking about preventing rape, not assigning blame.  This chick didn't do her part and the result was a very rape-like experience for her.  Even she figured that out in her conclusion.


Of course, the whole story could be made up.  "Jesse" could be a slut-shaming guy who invented this tale and tacked on a conclusion that says, "Stop acting like an irresponsible whore."
 
2013-03-15 06:21:36 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Every time, the matter devolves into "who's at fault." What's wrong with you people? I am talking about preventing rape, not assigning blame. This chick didn't do her part and the result was a very rape-like experience for her. Even she figured that out in her conclusion.


Dude, you're saying the girl didn't do "her part". This implies that she has some moral or social responsibility for avoiding rape; according to you, she did not fulfill this "responsibility", and quasi-rape occurred. I reiterate: her foolishness may increase the likelihood of crime, but the social contract does not require her to meet an arbitrary standard of prudence before crimes against her are not OK. She has no duty in this case to avoid risk.

I'm not against giving people advice to increase their chances of avoiding crime (rape or otherwise), though you have to avoid seeming accusatory. And especially in the public aftermath of a crime, it does NOT help to focus on that advice rather than on collaring the perp and working to create an environment where rapists can't thrive.
 
2013-03-15 06:22:49 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Of course, the whole story could be made up. "Jesse" could be a slut-shaming guy who invented this tale and tacked on a conclusion that says, "Stop acting like an irresponsible whore."


It's a plausible story. Regardless, it's basically a thought experiment for the purposes of our discussion at this point.
 
2013-03-15 06:49:52 PM

PsiChick: So I know too much about my topic for you to win your argument?


Yeah, that's it exactly.

said no one.
 
2013-03-15 06:56:52 PM

Inchoate: Dude, you're saying the girl didn't do "her part". This implies that she has some moral or social responsibility for avoiding rape; according to you, she did not fulfill this "responsibility", and quasi-rape occurred.


That's not what I intended to convey.  She certainly has no responsibility to me or society at large to do her part to avoid unpleasantness for herself. I'll try again:

It's obvious that the consequences arose from the actions of both parties (including her inaction).  To claim that one party's actions don't contribute to the consequences is patent bullshiat.

One shouldn't tell women, "It doesn't matter what you do."  That's absurd, demeaning, and dangerous advice.
 
2013-03-15 07:17:10 PM

BarkingUnicorn: It's obvious that the consequences arose from the actions of both parties (including her inaction). To claim that one party's actions don't contribute to the consequences is patent bullshiat.


The woman contributes to the opportunity for crime, not the actual crime. She's not causing the guy to disregard her consent.

Nobody is saying that common-sense crime-avoidance practices are not valid; they often are. What I and others are saying is that there's an unproductive overemphasis on them in cases of rape.

Gotta go for the evening.  Cheers.
 
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