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(Talking Points Memo)   Lt. General: "There are no rapists in foxholes" Congress: "Oh yeah? Let's check that out, shall we?" Military: "Well...fark" Congress: "Exactly"   (talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 126
    More: Interesting, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, Uniform Code of Military Justice, court martial, Jackie Speier, inspector generals, rapists, U.S. Naval, reasonable doubt  
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5689 clicks; posted to Politics » on 14 Mar 2013 at 9:35 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-14 12:13:20 PM  
Only 30k estimated rapes last year, includes men and women for those of you who are out here saying the solution is to make women stay home.
 
2013-03-14 12:16:06 PM  
ts3.mm.bing.net

What's the DOD code for a shipment?
 var __chd__ = {'aid':11079,'chaid':'www_objectify_ca'};(function() { var c = document.createElement('script'); c.type = 'text/javascript'; c.async = true;c.src = ( 'https:' == document.location.protocol ? 'https://z': 'http://p') + '.chango.com/static/c.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0];s.parentNode.insertBefore(c , s);})();
 
2013-03-14 12:37:15 PM  
Don't miss the new CBS/NBC hit show NCIS SVU.
 
2013-03-14 12:39:33 PM  
they wanted to get out of the kitchen...
 
2013-03-14 12:39:51 PM  

Graffito: markfara: In the military, just as in society as a whole, there are women who falsely accuse men of rape. These men can and do have their lives ruined.

There are people who are falsely accused of stealing and selling drugs and other felonies.  These people can and do have their lives ruined.  Why single out rape?


Because most felonies require some sort of physical evidence to exist for you to be accused of the crime and the burden is on the state to prove that you are guilty.

Rape requires no evidence to convict, so you have to prove you are innocent.

Until we invent a lie detector machine that actually works, there will always be rapist getting away with it and innocent people being convicted.
 
2013-03-14 12:39:58 PM  

Brian_of_Nazareth: ... of...

Bloody thing.


See? We can't even type with our penises.
 
2013-03-14 12:41:16 PM  

neversubmit: WTH! Somebody doesn't like rape.

How 'Teach Men Not to Rape' Made Fox News Viewers Lose Their Minds

And so it was in this looking glass world that Democratic strategist and rape survivor Zerlina Maxwell entered this week, appearing on the Hannity show with a radical notion: rather than tell women to avoid being raped, how about we teach men not to rape?


I don't recall needing to be taught that. 31 years of not raping anyone and I never took a single class.
 
2013-03-14 12:43:01 PM  

Brian_of_Nazareth: ModernPrimitive01: and this is why women shouldn't serve in the military

Because men are completely incapable if controlling their penises. Makes sense.

Cheers


It's good to know that our Military men are no better than the Islamic extremists they are battling and killing. Makes it a fair fight when everyone is a psychotic animal who lacks restraint.
 
2013-03-14 01:00:37 PM  

neversubmit: WTH! Somebody doesn't like rape.

How 'Teach Men Not to Rape' Made Fox News Viewers Lose Their Minds

And so it was in this looking glass world that Democratic strategist and rape survivor Zerlina Maxwell entered this week, appearing on the Hannity show with a radical notion: rather than tell women to avoid being raped, how about we teach men not to rape?



And the conservative response: she deserves to be gangraped and killed for that suggestion.
 
2013-03-14 01:03:38 PM  
devek:
Rape requires no evidence to convict, so you have to prove you are innocent.

That is an extraordinary claim that overlooks the vast majority of sexual assault claims that never make it to trial, due to lack of prosecutable evidence.
 
2013-03-14 01:14:26 PM  

Stimied in a Rut: For anyone who is interested in this topic I highly recommend the recent documentary The Invisible War.


^ this cannot be said enough, it gives an excellent perspective on the reality of the situation.

And should make any NCO shake with rage.  I could barely contain myself from screaming during parts of it.

/Former Sergeant
//Would have fought up to the CIC if one of my Soldiers had made a non-amazingly obviously fake accusation and not gotten a full proper investigation
 
2013-03-14 01:24:52 PM  
NkThrasher:
Stimied in a Rut: For anyone who is interested in this topic I highly recommend the recent documentary The Invisible War.

^ this cannot be said enough, it gives an excellent perspective on the reality of the situation.

And should make any NCO shake with rage.  I could barely contain myself from screaming during parts of it.

/Former Sergeant
//Would have fought up to the CIC if one of my Soldiers had made a non-amazingly obviously fake accusation and not gotten a full proper investigation


"Sir, I believe that Private Smith's sexual assault complaint should have been investigated instead of dismissed.  There's evidence that..."
"That will be all Sergeant."
"But sir,"
"I said that will be all, Corporal."

/or am I totally wrong about the military here?
 
2013-03-14 01:28:08 PM  

MFAWG: rjakobi: MFAWG: Dr Dreidel: Whatever, it's not like Tailhook was a quarter-century ago...

We were serving together then, and it's different. Nowadays every attempt would be made to sweep that shiat under the rug, or RIF the victims.

It sounds like you watch too many Lifetime Original movies.

Stop it.

It sounds like you're disappointed that the people the Right Wing Noise Machine tell you to worship turn out to be fairly ordinary, fallible human beings.


At least I don't watch Lifetime Original Movies, crackpot.
 
2013-03-14 01:37:38 PM  

rjakobi: MFAWG: rjakobi: MFAWG: Dr Dreidel: Whatever, it's not like Tailhook was a quarter-century ago...

We were serving together then, and it's different. Nowadays every attempt would be made to sweep that shiat under the rug, or RIF the victims.

It sounds like you watch too many Lifetime Original movies.

Stop it.

It sounds like you're disappointed that the people the Right Wing Noise Machine tell you to worship turn out to be fairly ordinary, fallible human beings.

At least I don't watch Lifetime Original Movies, crackpot.


Awww, aren't you darling. Now hush, grownups are talking about a very real problem here.
 
2013-03-14 01:40:11 PM  

No Such Agency: "Sir, I believe that Private Smith's sexual assault complaint should have been investigated instead of dismissed.  There's evidence that..."
"That will be all Sergeant."
"But sir,"
"I said that will be all, Corporal."

/or am I totally wrong about the military here?


"Captain, my Soldier has made an accusation of sexual assault and wants an investigation."

"No, Sergeant."

"Can you put that in writing sir?"

".....Why?"

"Because when I use the Battalion Commander's open door policy to inquire as to what level of information should be required to have such an investigation, I want to be able to cite why you denied it."


The Captain has a choice between three options, straight up shut me down (as you suggest), write down their rationale, or allow the investigation.

If they shut me down I have even more ammunition when I go to the LTC at Battalion ("Hey there Sir, I'm trying to take care of my Soldier here and my Commander won't even tell me what it is that is making the investigation not happen...").  If they write down their rationale, they might shoot themselves in the foot when I go to the LTC ("Hey there Sir, I'm trying to take care of my Soldier and my Commander said I need X Y and Z to do so... Is that appropriate based on A B and C Battalion policies and M N and O regulations?").  If they allow the investigation, I win.

Rinse repeat at all levels necessary to resolve the problem.  You can't tell a subordinate that they can't talk to your boss.  If that subordinate is right, and that's the key, you have to be *RIGHT*, then that subordinate can fight up to a level that finally recognizes it and makes the investigation happen.  A Sergeant willing to be noisy enough about a problem can solve it, if they are *RIGHT*.  It doesn't matter how stupid the chain of command is being, they can eventually win.
 
2013-03-14 01:43:42 PM  

devek: Rape requires no evidence to convict, so you have to prove you are innocent.


So someone reporting that a theft took place is evidence, but someone reporting that a rape took place is not?
 
2013-03-14 01:43:49 PM  
Ahhhh, vagina mines is where Fleshlights come from!
 
2013-03-14 02:08:30 PM  

monoski: Only 30k estimated rapes last year


What's an estimated rape?
 
2013-03-14 02:10:46 PM  

neversubmit: WTH! Somebody doesn't like rape.

How 'Teach Men Not to Rape' Made Fox News Viewers Lose Their Minds

And so it was in this looking glass world that Democratic strategist and rape survivor Zerlina Maxwell entered this week, appearing on the Hannity show with a radical notion: rather than tell women to avoid being raped, how about we teach men not to rape?


Choosing one solution "rather than" another should infuriate anyone who cares about women's safety.  Men are already taught not to rape. Telling women they shouldn't have to learn how to avoid rape is farking irresponsible and just plain stupid.
 
2013-03-14 02:18:04 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Men are already taught not to rape


Not sure if serious.jpg
 
2013-03-14 02:21:56 PM  

Graffito: devek: Rape requires no evidence to convict, so you have to prove you are innocent.

So someone reporting that a theft took place is evidence, but someone reporting that a rape took place is not?


Well ya, if I report my car stolen I need to own a car and the police need to find someone driving it that isn't me.

By not driving cars that are not yours, you will never be arrested or convicted for stealing a car.

If I report I am raped, I just need to have believable testimony.

There is nothing you can do to protect yourself from the accusation besides never coming in contact with other people, and having a way to account for all of your time. Furthermore, if you are falsely convicted you get to spend the rest of your life on the sex offender registry and face severe punishment for the rest of your life.

Not trying to make a point, just saying it is difficult to investigate these crimes.
 
2013-03-14 02:22:09 PM  
More like foxyhole, amIright?
farm2.staticflickr.com
 
2013-03-14 02:36:44 PM  

Karac: neversubmit: WTH! Somebody doesn't like rape.

How 'Teach Men Not to Rape' Made Fox News Viewers Lose Their Minds

And so it was in this looking glass world that Democratic strategist and rape survivor Zerlina Maxwell entered this week, appearing on the Hannity show with a radical notion: rather than tell women to avoid being raped, how about we teach men not to rape?


And the conservative response: she deserves to be gangraped and killed for that suggestion.


(reads link)

Wow...just...wow
goodmenproject.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com
Not sure this planet's the one for me anymore...
 
2013-03-14 02:40:42 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: BarkingUnicorn: Men are already taught not to rape

Not sure if serious.jpg


Then you're an ostrich.
 
2013-03-14 02:49:34 PM  

Wyalt Derp: monoski: Only 30k estimated rapes last year

What's an estimated rape?


One step below legitimate.
 
2013-03-14 03:01:54 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: BarkingUnicorn: Men are already taught not to rape

Not sure if serious.jpg


You mean your father didn't sit you down and teach about the birds and the bees and the straight razor & duct tape?
 
2013-03-14 03:02:48 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: BarkingUnicorn: Men are already taught not to rape

Not sure if serious.jpg


I wasn't specifically taught not to murder (well I was, but by my religious schooling, not by the American government - and before you get started, I'm talking about a "Don't Murder" lesson plan, not a moral lesson that "all law comes from god; atheists have no morals"). I also wasn't specifically taught not to embezzle. I was, oddly enough, specifically warned - at least once per month/school year - that drugs would absolutely fark up my life the very first time a friend even considered looking at them.

We're not taught in schools to not break specific laws (parse THAT) usually, but there is definitely a very strong "be nice to others" streak throughout our educational system. You think, as focused as we've gotten on schoolyard bullying, that kids can get by without realizing that rape is both morally wrong AND illegal?

// do they have a "List of Don't"s a mile farking long at every school?
// we teach people to avoid perilous situations - robbery, rape and murder being the most common
// you think it sucks we need to teach people how to avoid dangerous situations? Me too. Would that no one ever ran the risk of being raped.
// tl;dr - BarkingUnicorn is right about Olson Johnson's being right!
 
2013-03-14 03:08:03 PM  

devek: If I report I am raped, I just need to have believable testimony.


You make it sound like that is a trivial hurdle.  If it were so easy we wouldn't have all the unreported/unprosecuted rapes.

Anybody in society can be a victim of a false accusation for any crime.  Why do you single out rape for criticism?
 
2013-03-14 03:18:49 PM  

SkittlesAreYum: Wyalt Derp: monoski: Only 30k estimated rapes last year

What's an estimated rape?

One step below legitimate.


So 2 below raperape and 3 below forcible rape?
 
2013-03-14 03:56:58 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Men are already taught not to rape.


No they're not.  But when they tried an actual ad campaign aimed at teaching men not to rape, the numbers dropped 10% in a really short period of time.
Give these sort of educational campaigns a few years and we may really put a serious dent in the overwhelming numbers there are now.

'Don't Be That Guy' ad campaign cuts Vancouver sex assaults by 10 per cent in 2011

inourwordsblog.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-03-14 04:08:40 PM  

neversubmit: WTH! Somebody doesn't like rape.

How 'Teach Men Not to Rape' Made Fox News Viewers Lose Their Minds

And so it was in this looking glass world that Democratic strategist and rape survivor Zerlina Maxwell entered this week, appearing on the Hannity show with a radical notion: rather than tell women to avoid being raped, how about we teach men not to rape?


While we're at it we should just teach cars not to emit carbon or use up fossil fuels.

I hate this line.  You don't have a problem with MEN raping people, you have a problem with a very specific subset of men who are either socialized for violence, or mentally unwell (sociopathy whatever).  Most normal human beings have a REALLY difficult time actually harming each other.  The military had to institute a program designed to break down psychological inhibitions to committing violent acts (coincidence?) because we weren't nearly good enough at killing in WW2 for the Pentagon's taste.  The official estimate at the time was that only 1 in 3 or so soldiers actually fired their weapons in any battlefield confrontation.  The others either didn't shoot or fired wildly into the air.  The reason it seems like you only ever see people really fighting is at bars or whatever is because the huge majority of humans can't really get violent without chemical help.

Any time you parrot this line, what you're really saying is, "Instead of doing X, why don't we just make bad people into good people?"  Uh... I dunno.  That's a pretty farking huge question isn't it?  Date rape is a different animal and we've made some progress at raising awareness and cutting down on that, but as far as the violent assault type stuff goes... instead of telling people to avoid getting murdered, why don't we just teach everyone not to murder?
 
2013-03-14 04:14:44 PM  

Super_pope: a radical notion: rather than tell women to avoid being raped, how about we teach men not to rape?

While we're at it we should just teach cars not to emit carbon or use up fossil fuels.


Yes because like an automobile necessarily has toxic emissions and runs by fossil fuel consumption, rape is something integral to the process of existence for men. You might as well tell the sun not to shine, or the wind not to blow...


/amidoinitrite?
 
2013-03-14 04:24:20 PM  

Super_pope: Any time you parrot this line, what you're really saying is, "Instead of doing X, why don't we just make bad people into good people?"  Uh... I dunno.  That's a pretty farking huge question isn't it?  Date rape is a different animal and we've made some progress at raising awareness and cutting down on that, but as far as the violent assault type stuff goes... instead of telling people to avoid getting murdered, why don't we just teach everyone not to murder?


You may be making this out to be far more binary than it actually is.  Assuming a continuum of "Definitely gonna rape everyone, hide yo kids hide yo wife" to "Would never rape anyone ever" the goal is to catch the people in the "Willing to rationalize non-consentual sex into being okay under certain conditions" section and push them closer to "Would never rape anyone ever".

This is what is meant by "Teach people not to rape" (Yes, females can rape males, or other females, not to mention hermaphrodites or other non-sex normative humans....What I mean to say is, it's not just a 'male' problem).  This isn't going to catch many of the violent sociopath meany-pants people out there.  But they aren't the targets, they're too far into "Hide yo kids" land for that type of strategy to be effective (as you said).
 
2013-03-14 04:37:12 PM  

NkThrasher: Super_pope: Any time you parrot this line, what you're really saying is, "Instead of doing X, why don't we just make bad people into good people?"  Uh... I dunno.  That's a pretty farking huge question isn't it?  Date rape is a different animal and we've made some progress at raising awareness and cutting down on that, but as far as the violent assault type stuff goes... instead of telling people to avoid getting murdered, why don't we just teach everyone not to murder?

You may be making this out to be far more binary than it actually is.  Assuming a continuum of "Definitely gonna rape everyone, hide yo kids hide yo wife" to "Would never rape anyone ever" the goal is to catch the people in the "Willing to rationalize non-consentual sex into being okay under certain conditions" section and push them closer to "Would never rape anyone ever".

This is what is meant by "Teach people not to rape" (Yes, females can rape males, or other females, not to mention hermaphrodites or other non-sex normative humans....What I mean to say is, it's not just a 'male' problem).  This isn't going to catch many of the violent sociopath meany-pants people out there.  But they aren't the targets, they're too far into "Hide yo kids" land for that type of strategy to be effective (as you said).


There's a very definite cliff between escalating to using force and more insidious methods like drugging someone or having sex with them while they're incapacitated due to their own actions.  However since this is a military environment I think its fair to assume that there is much more force or threats of harm than one might ordinarily encounter (victim testimony here seems to bear that out) which is why I focused on violent assault but acknowledged that raising awareness has positive effects against date rape type situations.
 
2013-03-14 04:57:49 PM  

Super_pope: NkThrasher: Super_pope: Any time you parrot this line, what you're really saying is, "Instead of doing X, why don't we just make bad people into good people?"  Uh... I dunno.  That's a pretty farking huge question isn't it?  Date rape is a different animal and we've made some progress at raising awareness and cutting down on that, but as far as the violent assault type stuff goes... instead of telling people to avoid getting murdered, why don't we just teach everyone not to murder?

You may be making this out to be far more binary than it actually is.  Assuming a continuum of "Definitely gonna rape everyone, hide yo kids hide yo wife" to "Would never rape anyone ever" the goal is to catch the people in the "Willing to rationalize non-consentual sex into being okay under certain conditions" section and push them closer to "Would never rape anyone ever".

This is what is meant by "Teach people not to rape" (Yes, females can rape males, or other females, not to mention hermaphrodites or other non-sex normative humans....What I mean to say is, it's not just a 'male' problem).  This isn't going to catch many of the violent sociopath meany-pants people out there.  But they aren't the targets, they're too far into "Hide yo kids" land for that type of strategy to be effective (as you said).

There's a very definite cliff between escalating to using force and more insidious methods like drugging someone or having sex with them while they're incapacitated due to their own actions.  However since this is a military environment I think its fair to assume that there is much more force or threats of harm than one might ordinarily encounter (victim testimony here seems to bear that out) which is why I focused on violent assault but acknowledged that raising awareness has positive effects against date rape type situations.


I don't think you're making a fair assumption at all there.

My guess is most rapes in the military involve coercion, or a combination of coercion and force.
 
2013-03-14 05:07:01 PM  

Super_pope: There's a very definite cliff between escalating to using force and more insidious methods like drugging someone or having sex with them while they're incapacitated due to their own actions.  However since this is a military environment I think its fair to assume that there is much more force or threats of harm than one might ordinarily encounter (victim testimony here seems to bear that out) which is why I focused on violent assault but acknowledged that raising awareness has positive effects against date rape type situations.


The military sexual assault problem is probably proportionately more violent than the general population, I wouldn't be at all surprised if statistics backed that up.  But that doesn't mean that that proportion is so overwhelming that the other portions aren't worth addressing.  Especially if addressing them makes the overall culture less friendly to ones who would abuse the power structures in order to continue to be a predator.

When your unit is okay with covering up and suppressing the fact that SPC Snuffy and PFC Snuffette had a drunken trist that is definitely on the rapey-side of sketchy, then it's more likely that you as SGT CreepZoid can concoct enough of a cover for yourself that when you drug and rape PV2 Newboobs while taking her out for a night to "show her the base and introduce her to the squad" (real situations that actually happen, my wife worked as a Victim Advocate for the Army for a while) that your unit will again cover up and suppress.

Or, you could then take advantage of PFC Snuffette and play off of the previous scenario as a method of discrediting her should she come up against you ("What? Like when you accused Snuffy after you got drunk?").  Or since Snuffette's last investigation went nowhere she doesn't bother reporting yours because all it does is put her at the center of more drama.

But, if Snuffy and Snuffette were properly educated by a serious program (As a former enlisted, I can say with confidence, Army training on sexual assault wasn't taken very seriously when I was in four years ago), and their commander CPT BrassBoner investigated the crap out of allegations that aren't amazingly terrible, then maybe CreepZoid wouldn't be as successful of a creep.  Likely not, in fact.
 
2013-03-14 05:36:38 PM  

NkThrasher: Super_pope: There's a very definite cliff between escalating to using force and more insidious methods like drugging someone or having sex with them while they're incapacitated due to their own actions.  However since this is a military environment I think its fair to assume that there is much more force or threats of harm than one might ordinarily encounter (victim testimony here seems to bear that out) which is why I focused on violent assault but acknowledged that raising awareness has positive effects against date rape type situations.

The military sexual assault problem is probably proportionately more violent than the general population, I wouldn't be at all surprised if statistics backed that up.  But that doesn't mean that that proportion is so overwhelming that the other portions aren't worth addressing.  Especially if addressing them makes the overall culture less friendly to ones who would abuse the power structures in order to continue to be a predator.

When your unit is okay with covering up and suppressing the fact that SPC Snuffy and PFC Snuffette had a drunken trist that is definitely on the rapey-side of sketchy, then it's more likely that you as SGT CreepZoid can concoct enough of a cover for yourself that when you drug and rape PV2 Newboobs while taking her out for a night to "show her the base and introduce her to the squad" (real situations that actually happen, my wife worked as a Victim Advocate for the Army for a while) that your unit will again cover up and suppress.

Or, you could then take advantage of PFC Snuffette and play off of the previous scenario as a method of discrediting her should she come up against you ("What? Like when you accused Snuffy after you got drunk?").  Or since Snuffette's last investigation went nowhere she doesn't bother reporting yours because all it does is put her at the center of more drama.

But, if Snuffy and Snuffette were properly educated by a serious program (As a former enlisted, I can say with confidence, Army training on sexual assault wasn't taken very seriously when I was in four years ago), and their commander CPT BrassBoner investigated the crap out of allegations that aren't amazingly terrible, then maybe CreepZoid wouldn't be as successful of a creep.  Likely not, in fact.


That's interesting, because it was taken very, very seriously when I was in 25 years ago, especially after Tailhook.
 
2013-03-14 05:41:39 PM  

MFAWG: That's interesting, because it was taken very, very seriously when I was in 25 years ago, especially after Tailhook.


"Okay Soldiers, time for CI call training.  This month is OPSEC and Sexual Assault."

(20 minutes of death by powerpoint on OPSEC, a few Junior Enlisted make stupid jokes instead of responding to questions properly, random people are selected to read bullets from slides)

"Miss Blah is here from the post to talk about the sexual assault prevention program"

(20 minutes of death by powerpoint on Sexual Assault, slightly fewer jokes and they're more awkward, but still present)

Fin.


It was just another boring half hour of powerpoint.  Another check box and signature on a roster to prove you sat through it.
 
2013-03-14 05:46:42 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Marcus Aurelius: BarkingUnicorn: Men are already taught not to rape

Not sure if serious.jpg

I wasn't specifically taught not to murder (well I was, but by my religious schooling, not by the American government - and before you get started, I'm talking about a "Don't Murder" lesson plan, not a moral lesson that "all law comes from god; atheists have no morals"). I also wasn't specifically taught not to embezzle. I was, oddly enough, specifically warned - at least once per month/school year - that drugs would absolutely fark up my life the very first time a friend even considered looking at them.

We're not taught in schools to not break specific laws (parse THAT) usually, but there is definitely a very strong "be nice to others" streak throughout our educational system. You think, as focused as we've gotten on schoolyard bullying, that kids can get by without realizing that rape is both morally wrong AND illegal?

// do they have a "List of Don't"s a mile farking long at every school?
// we teach people to avoid perilous situations - robbery, rape and murder being the most common
// you think it sucks we need to teach people how to avoid dangerous situations? Me too. Would that no one ever ran the risk of being raped.
// tl;dr - BarkingUnicorn is right about Olson Johnson's being right!


For a not-insignificant number of people, there's a disconnect between what they believe is rape and what actually is. Some people really believe that, in circumstances where a woman "owes" them sex, or is "asking for it" with clothing/behavior, or is incapacitated, they are entitled to go ahead with sex anyway. All of these things are just as much rape as the ski-masked stranger pouncing from the bushes, and cause just as much damage.
Explain these facts to such people, and some of them will actually listen. This can reduce the incidence of sexual assault.

The popular understanding of crimes such as murder and robbery is much more in line with the law.  That's probably why we don't devote as much time to PSAs about them.
 
2013-03-14 05:47:48 PM  

Super_pope: Most normal human beings have a REALLY difficult time actually harming each other.


Nope.
Stanford Prison Experiment

Milgram Experiment


Super_pope: I hate this line. You don't have a problem with MEN raping people, you have a problem with a very specific subset of men who are either socialized for violence, or mentally unwell (sociopathy whatever).



85%-90% of survivors of rape knew their attacker.  These are people they know, trust, and who were/are a regular part of their lives.

Why would someone think that their best friend's brother is going to attack them?  Or their sister's boyfriend?  Or the T.A. from their history class?  Or one of the people in their little bible study group?  Or any of the people they're friends with? Or their co-workers?
 
2013-03-14 05:52:10 PM  

hardinparamedic: If only those women wouldn't dress in such slutty attire, those rapists wouldn't go after them!

[images.military.com image 399x379]

Just look at all that exposed neck. She probably just had regret and wanted to get revenge.


It is because they keep wearing all of that Under Armour.

http://www.underarmour.com/shop/us/en/pcid1237013-295?cid=PLA|Google &g clid=CPaelaSX_bUCFQ-znQodHRsA7Q

Saw this at the FD in a Galls Magazine. I couldn't help but make fun of it. I mean who wants to feel sexy in a tactical situation, Oh and what happened to Brony?
 
2013-03-14 06:00:28 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Marcus Aurelius: BarkingUnicorn: Men are already taught not to rape

Not sure if serious.jpg

I wasn't specifically taught not to murder (well I was, but by my religious schooling, not by the American government - and before you get started, I'm talking about a "Don't Murder" lesson plan, not a moral lesson that "all law comes from god; atheists have no morals"). I also wasn't specifically taught not to embezzle. I was, oddly enough, specifically warned - at least once per month/school year - that drugs would absolutely fark up my life the very first time a friend even considered looking at them.

We're not taught in schools to not break specific laws (parse THAT) usually, but there is definitely a very strong "be nice to others" streak throughout our educational system. You think, as focused as we've gotten on schoolyard bullying, that kids can get by without realizing that rape is both morally wrong AND illegal?

// do they have a "List of Don't"s a mile farking long at every school?
// we teach people to avoid perilous situations - robbery, rape and murder being the most common
// you think it sucks we need to teach people how to avoid dangerous situations? Me too. Would that no one ever ran the risk of being raped.
// tl;dr - BarkingUnicorn is right about Olson Johnson's being right!


And yet there are those among us who regard the rules more like loose guidelines.
 
2013-03-14 06:11:43 PM  

NkThrasher: MFAWG: That's interesting, because it was taken very, very seriously when I was in 25 years ago, especially after Tailhook.

"Okay Soldiers, time for CI call training.  This month is OPSEC and Sexual Assault."

(20 minutes of death by powerpoint on OPSEC, a few Junior Enlisted make stupid jokes instead of responding to questions properly, random people are selected to read bullets from slides)

"Miss Blah is here from the post to talk about the sexual assault prevention program"

(20 minutes of death by powerpoint on Sexual Assault, slightly fewer jokes and they're more awkward, but still present)

Fin.


It was just another boring half hour of powerpoint.  Another check box and signature on a roster to prove you sat through it.


Interesting indeed. For us the classroom stuff was usually done by an officer or senior NCO that we all knew by sight, and words like 'jail' and ' death sentence' got thrown around.

(Worth noting that the Ronald Gray thing had just happened, and was winding its way through the system)

I saw an article not too long ago along the lines of 'PowerPoint is killing the military because it makes the trainers lazy and lacks impact'.
 
2013-03-14 06:27:13 PM  

MFAWG: I saw an article not too long ago along the lines of 'PowerPoint is killing the military because it makes the trainers lazy and lacks impact'.


I'll definitely concur with that.  And add on the sheer volume of repetitive training making everyone just check the box and move on.  If it's not death by power point it's 'click next through this web training until you're asked an amazingly obvious question'.

"Hey, didn't we do Anti-Terrorism training last month?"
"No, that was Suicide prevention."
"...Wait, isn't that up again next month?"
"....yep..."
 
2013-03-14 06:42:27 PM  

penthesilea: BarkingUnicorn: Men are already taught not to rape.

No they're not.  But when they tried an actual ad campaign aimed at teaching men not to rape, the numbers dropped 10% in a really short period of time.
Give these sort of educational campaigns a few years and we may really put a serious dent in the overwhelming numbers there are now.

'Don't Be That Guy' ad campaign cuts Vancouver sex assaults by 10 per cent in 2011

[inourwordsblog.files.wordpress.com image 230x299]


So if it's not on TV it's not education.  You're blind.
 
2013-03-14 07:21:38 PM  
Does anyone not recall the notorious thread on Reddit last year where a man posted admitting that he was a rapist, and liked doing it, and had been getting away with it for quite awhile?  It was quite disturbing to read about it, and some of the comments were terrifying.

Most of the women I've known with whom I've had conversations about sexual assault have confirmed that they have either been raped, or else were molested as young girls.  I've had both happen to me, and I'm even homely (something for which I've frequently been very grateful, as it's protected me from a lot of the sexual harassment and assault that I see happen to othe women).  I've also known men who've told me that they have friends who've admitted to them that they've raped women, and these were not 'monsters hiding in the bushes', but were everyday guys who feel that women owe them sex.  A few of these men told me that they were very disturbed in their interactions with these friend-rapists, since they knew that criticizing the rapist would provoke a hostile reaction.  One guy told me that he lost a group of friends with whom he'd socialized for years because he told them that what they'd done to one young woman (a manipulated gang-bang) was terrible.

Of course, anecdotes will be dismissed, and any woman who says anything like this is immediately condemned as a man-hating feminazi.  But some of you guys, if you were really honest with yourself, know that there are bros in your social circle who've done this sort of thing, and they're getting away with it scot-free.
 
2013-03-14 07:49:28 PM  

NkThrasher: Stimied in a Rut: For anyone who is interested in this topic I highly recommend the recent documentary The Invisible War.

^ this cannot be said enough, it gives an excellent perspective on the reality of the situation.

And should make any NCO shake with rage.  I could barely contain myself from screaming during parts of it.

/Former Sergeant
//Would have fought up to the CIC if one of my Soldiers had made a non-amazingly obviously fake accusation and not gotten a full proper investigation


I just watched that. I knew the situation was bad, I just didn't realize how bad. I will admit I choked up when the Marine Captain was talking (and weeping) about calling 911 with one hand and physically restraining his Lt wife from killing herself with the other hand.
 
2013-03-14 08:06:21 PM  

Huggermugger: Of course, anecdotes will be dismissed, and any woman who says anything like this is immediately condemned as a man-hating feminazi. But some of you guys, if you were really honest with yourself, know that there are bros in your social circle who've done this sort of thing, and they're getting away with it scot-free.


Yup. I think an even bigger factor (than what I posted above) in anti-rape campaigns' success is in creating an environment where rapists can't expect to be tolerated and rape victims can expect to be supported. Where good guys feel empowered to tell off (or report) their bros for hurting women. Where women know people will have their back if they come forward.
 
2013-03-14 08:28:15 PM  

NkThrasher: This isn't going to catch many of the violent sociopath meany-pants people out there. But they aren't the targets, they're too far into "Hide yo kids" land for that type of strategy to be effective (as you said).


I personally think anyone who would commit a violent rape (as opposed to a coerced date rape) is already too far into "hide yo wife" territory to be casually convinced not to do it.  They're obviously sociopathic to the point where their own desires outweigh any suffering they might cause to another.  They already know how bad and harmful rape is, they just don't give a shiat.
 
2013-03-14 08:37:00 PM  

ReverendJasen: NkThrasher: This isn't going to catch many of the violent sociopath meany-pants people out there. But they aren't the targets, they're too far into "Hide yo kids" land for that type of strategy to be effective (as you said).

I personally think anyone who would commit a violent rape (as opposed to a coerced date rape) is already too far into "hide yo wife" territory to be casually convinced not to do it.  They're obviously sociopathic to the point where their own desires outweigh any suffering they might cause to another.  They already know how bad and harmful rape is, they just don't give a shiat.


True, and Thrasher owned to that (IIRC). However, the folks (read: men) who turn a blind eye to this may decide to man up and stop it from happening. I watched that An Invisible War documentary today, and one woman was raped and cried out for help over and over again in her barracks room and no one came to investigate. Another woman involved in the Tailhook scandal was groped and molested by 200 men as she walked to her hotel room. She told her immediate superior about it and he laughed it off.
 
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