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(Talking Points Memo)   Lt. General: "There are no rapists in foxholes" Congress: "Oh yeah? Let's check that out, shall we?" Military: "Well...fark" Congress: "Exactly"   (talkingpointsmemo.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, Uniform Code of Military Justice, court martial, Jackie Speier, inspector generals, rapists, U.S. Naval, reasonable doubt  
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5696 clicks; posted to Politics » on 14 Mar 2013 at 9:35 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



126 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-03-14 09:37:12 AM  
If it weren't a foxhole, it wouldn't be rapeworthy.
 
2013-03-14 09:38:18 AM  
Ah, hello. Well first of all I'd like to apologize for the behaviour of certain of my colleagues you may have seen earlier, but they are from broken homes, circus families and so on and they are in no way representative of the new modern improved British Navy US Air Force. They are a small vociferous minority; and may I take this opportunity of emphasizing that there is no cannibalism in the British Navy US Air Force. Absolutely none, and when I say none, I mean there is a certain amount, more than we are prepared to admit, but all new ratings are warned that if they wake up in the morning and find any toothmarks at all anywhere on their bodies, they're to tell me immediately so that I can immediately take every measure to hush the whole thing up. And, finally, necrophilia is right out.
 
2013-03-14 09:39:58 AM  
Uhhh, yeah.  There's a lot of racists in foxholes.  There's enough that women on military bases are regularly cautioned to not walk to the bathrooms alone at night.

 An Air Force general's decision to reverse a guilty verdict in a sexual assault case
Oh ... Air Force.  Well, why didn't subby say that?  They're the rapiest.  And the preachiest.
 
2013-03-14 09:40:34 AM  
DOH, rapists, that is.
Racists get shown the door right quick.
 
2013-03-14 09:41:12 AM  
The former Mrs. MFAWG (Cpt, USA recently retired) says it has gotten really, really bad.
 
2013-03-14 09:43:40 AM  
Whatever, it's not like Tailhook was a quarter-century ago...
 
2013-03-14 09:45:15 AM  
I wonder what the specifics were in the cases that didn't go to trial.  And the article doesn't really detail the "problem" with the investigative process.  From my personal experience and having given statements in two separate harassment incidents and having to give formal counseling to an enlistee in my charge, I can tell you, at least, the USAF investigates the shait out of every little claim once a complain is made. I can also tell you that because it is taken care of with great detail and quick action, that it is horribly abused by those who would complain.  That isn't to say that every claim should be given the same diligence, but this should be considered when comparing the number of claims verses the number that went to trial.

Units that are not properly investigating will, in my opinion, stand out against the norm.  And this should be easily seen when examining the details of incidents across units.
 
2013-03-14 09:45:31 AM  
Am I the only one who finds the headline really strange in light of the contents of TFA?
 
2013-03-14 09:45:49 AM  
But Hagel told Boxer neither he nor the Air Force secretary is empowered to overrule Franklin, who is the commander of the 3rd Air Force at Ramstein Air Base in Germany.

They probably can't over-overturn the sexual assualt conviction.  But it sounds like they have damn good grounds to convene a court-martial against Franklin, saying that by letting that guy slide he violated article 134 of the UCMJ.
 
2013-03-14 09:45:57 AM  

Dr Dreidel: Whatever, it's not like Tailhook was a quarter-century ago...


We were serving together then, and it's different. Nowadays every attempt would be made to sweep that shiat under the rug, or RIF the victims.
 
2013-03-14 09:48:42 AM  

MFAWG: Dr Dreidel: Whatever, it's not like Tailhook was a quarter-century ago...

We were serving together then, and it's different. Nowadays every attempt would be made to sweep that shiat under the rug, or RIF the victims.


Does RIF = Rape In Full?
 
2013-03-14 09:49:35 AM  

bdub77: MFAWG: Dr Dreidel: Whatever, it's not like Tailhook was a quarter-century ago...

We were serving together then, and it's different. Nowadays every attempt would be made to sweep that shiat under the rug, or RIF the victims.

Does RIF = Rape In Full?


Reduction in force.  Basically firing anyone who complains about UPIV.
 
2013-03-14 09:52:01 AM  

MFAWG: Dr Dreidel: Whatever, it's not like Tailhook was a quarter-century ago...

We were serving together then, and it's different. Nowadays every attempt would be made to sweep that shiat under the rug, or RIF the victims.


You'll have to explain a bit - I was not yet a teenager when Tailhook hit the news, so all I really remember is sexual harassment/assault among carrier-plane pilots (who I think are Navy?). I thought a major part of that scandal (like so many others) was that they had tried sweeping it under the rug.

You can't seriously tell me we're getting worse at handling rape/sex assault cases in the last 20 years (not that we're great shakes at it now, either).

// "we were serving together then"?
 
2013-03-14 09:57:38 AM  
Best and brightest
 
2013-03-14 10:02:48 AM  

Karac: bdub77: MFAWG: Dr Dreidel: Whatever, it's not like Tailhook was a quarter-century ago...

We were serving together then, and it's different. Nowadays every attempt would be made to sweep that shiat under the rug, or RIF the victims.

Does RIF = Rape In Full?

Reduction in force.  Basically firing anyone who complains about UPIV.


Glad you explained that. I thought reduction in force was when you pull out to avoid rape babies.
 
2013-03-14 10:06:06 AM  

bdub77: Karac: bdub77: MFAWG: Dr Dreidel: Whatever, it's not like Tailhook was a quarter-century ago...

We were serving together then, and it's different. Nowadays every attempt would be made to sweep that shiat under the rug, or RIF the victims.

Does RIF = Rape In Full?

Reduction in force.  Basically firing anyone who complains about UPIV.

Glad you explained that. I thought reduction in force was when you pull out to avoid rape babies.


That's strategic withdrawal.
 
2013-03-14 10:08:40 AM  
and this is why women shouldn't serve in the military
 
2013-03-14 10:12:29 AM  

ModernPrimitive01: and this is why women shouldn't serve in the military


Any large organization that consists of less than about 40% women (including in top positions of authority) will tend to treat women badly.

As a modern primitive, you of all people should know this.
 
2013-03-14 10:15:16 AM  
There is a simple solution that the military is very capable of introducing at any time.

Vagina mines.
 
2013-03-14 10:15:44 AM  

ModernPrimitive01: and this is why women shouldn't serve in the military


Women aren't the ones doing all the rape.

Kick the men out.
 
2013-03-14 10:17:14 AM  

ModernPrimitive01: and this is why women shouldn't serve in the military


OR, you know, dudes could stop being rapists.

/not saying all dudes are rapists
 
2013-03-14 10:18:32 AM  

MFAWG: Dr Dreidel: Whatever, it's not like Tailhook was a quarter-century ago...

We were serving together then, and it's different. Nowadays every attempt would be made to sweep that shiat under the rug, or RIF the victims.


It sounds like you watch too many Lifetime Original movies.

Stop it.
 
2013-03-14 10:24:45 AM  

Dr Dreidel: Whatever, it's not like Tailhook was a quarter-century ago...


Who was raped at tailhook?
 
2013-03-14 10:33:48 AM  
Rape is a problem. It was a problem when I served in the Army in the late 70s.

That said, women do sometimes accuse men of rape when they in fact were not raped.

That is all.
 
2013-03-14 10:38:46 AM  

Dr Dreidel: MFAWG: Dr Dreidel: Whatever, it's not like Tailhook was a quarter-century ago...

We were serving together then, and it's different. Nowadays every attempt would be made to sweep that shiat under the rug, or RIF the victims.

You'll have to explain a bit - I was not yet a teenager when Tailhook hit the news, so all I really remember is sexual harassment/assault among carrier-plane pilots (who I think are Navy?). I thought a major part of that scandal (like so many others) was that they had tried sweeping it under the rug.

You can't seriously tell me we're getting worse at handling rape/sex assault cases in the last 20 years (not that we're great shakes at it now, either).

// "we were serving together then"?


I'm seriously telling you that (according to her) we appear to have gotten worse at it.

In those days the tendency was to try to ignore it and hope it blew over. Now the tendency is to actively cover it up and avoid prosecutions.

Yes, we served together. Is that difficult to grasp?
 
2013-03-14 10:47:36 AM  
The former Army Sergeant who testified is my hero.
 
2013-03-14 10:47:58 AM  
This is my rifle, this is my gun.
This is for fighting, this is for RAPE.
 
2013-03-14 10:48:00 AM  

markfara: Rape is a problem. It was a problem when I served in the Army in the late 70s.

That said, women do sometimes accuse men of rape when they in fact were not raped.

That is all.


The number of women that are raped in the military far, far outweighs the number of false accusations. Like 100,000:1 or more. Seems you being quite disingenuous.

For anyone who is interested in this topic I highly recommend the recent documentary The Invisible War. The actions by the military will astound and anger you where they protect the rapist/abuser and blame the victim.  The estimate is that over 500,000 women AND MEN have been raped or sexually assaulted in the last 25-30 years (I don't remember the exact timeline).  Many go unreported because the perpetrators are those who you have to report the assault/rape to or their friends.  Investigations are closed with no action taken and victims punished all the time. It is really scary and incredibly how protected serial rapists are in the military, especially to this day.
 
2013-03-14 10:58:15 AM  
If only those women wouldn't dress in such slutty attire, those rapists wouldn't go after them!

images.military.com

Just look at all that exposed neck. She probably just had regret and wanted to get revenge.
 
2013-03-14 10:58:55 AM  

Ed Finnerty: There is a simple solution that the military is very capable of introducing at any time.

Vagina mines.


There once lived a woman named Jill,
who tried dynamite for a thrill.
They found her vagina
in North Carolina
and bits of her tits in Brazil.
 
m00
2013-03-14 10:58:58 AM  

bdub77: Glad you explained that. I thought reduction in force was when you pull out to avoid rape babies.


Well, it's typical procedure right after a troop surge.
 
2013-03-14 11:02:11 AM  

rjakobi: MFAWG: Dr Dreidel: Whatever, it's not like Tailhook was a quarter-century ago...

We were serving together then, and it's different. Nowadays every attempt would be made to sweep that shiat under the rug, or RIF the victims.

It sounds like you watch too many Lifetime Original movies.

Stop it.


It sounds like you're disappointed that the people the Right Wing Noise Machine tell you to worship turn out to be fairly ordinary, fallible human beings.
 
2013-03-14 11:02:57 AM  

Stimied in a Rut: markfara: Rape is a problem. It was a problem when I served in the Army in the late 70s.

That said, women do sometimes accuse men of rape when they in fact were not raped.

That is all.

The number of women that are raped in the military far, far outweighs the number of false accusations. Like 100,000:1 or more. Seems you being quite disingenuous.

For anyone who is interested in this topic I highly recommend the recent documentary The Invisible War. The actions by the military will astound and anger you where they protect the rapist/abuser and blame the victim.  The estimate is that over 500,000 women AND MEN have been raped or sexually assaulted in the last 25-30 years (I don't remember the exact timeline).  Many go unreported because the perpetrators are those who you have to report the assault/rape to or their friends.  Investigations are closed with no action taken and victims punished all the time. It is really scary and incredibly how protected serial rapists are in the military, especially to this day.


I watched that documentary a couple of nights ago. I thought it was excellent, and I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying (tho I'd like to know where you got the 100,000 to 1 stat, and exactly how that was arrived at). And no, I'm not being disingenuous. In the military, just as in society as a whole, there are women who falsely accuse men of rape. These men can and do have their lives ruined.

In our long-overdue campaign to deal with sexual assault in the military, some mind needs to be given to the falsely accused as well, is all I'm saying.
 
2013-03-14 11:04:53 AM  

MFAWG: I'm seriously telling you that (according to her) we appear to have gotten worse at it.

In those days the tendency was to try to ignore it and hope it blew over. Now the tendency is to actively cover it up and avoid prosecutions.

Yes, we served together. Is that difficult to grasp?


Wow. We actually have gotten worse at it. That's...good to know, I guess, but I'm not happy I know it. (I suppose an argument could be made that avoiding prosecution at least acknowledges the crime, whereas ignoring it doesn't, but it hurts to know we still suck that bad at prosecuting sex crimes in the military after a 25-year focus on it.)

// repeating the same phrase doesn't help my understanding of it - who is "we"? what does it mean to be "serving together" (I assume you mean "served in the military", not "served dinner" or "beat someone in a dance competition", but since they only allowed women in combat roles a few weeks ago, do you mean "after they allowed women as pilots"? "after they allowed women in the Navy/Marines period"?)?  when is "then"? why does it matter to the discussion that "y'all" were serving together "then"?
// I'm inquiring, not attacking
 
2013-03-14 11:06:16 AM  
We were both on active duty in the same place at the same time.
 
2013-03-14 11:07:27 AM  
The general who overturned the conviction cannot be overruled, but he can be relieved of duty. Sadly, it's likely nothing will happen to him. But it would certainly seem like women would and should be wary to have said officer in their chain of command, if nothing does happen.
 
2013-03-14 11:14:16 AM  

MFAWG: We were both on active duty in the same place at the same time.


My OP: "Whatever, it's not like Tailhook was a quarter-century ago..."

There is no "we" mentioned; unless you mean you and I, but I've never served in the military. "Both" of whom? You and the mouse in your pocket? You and the wife? You and someone you accused of rape? You and Markos Moulitsas? You and the Tailhookers?

You've now explained that "serving together" meant you and [REDACTED] were active duty "at the time". I assume we're still talking about Tailhook, yes? So the 1991ish time-frame is the "when"?

Were you serving at the time at Ft Dix, Ft Drum, Ft Hood, etc; were you some officer's escort in Vegas during the conference; were you one of the officers on the court-martial (could you tell us if you were?); were you in one of the accused's CoC?

I just want to know what you meant and why you brought it up, but I feel like I'm cross-examining a hostile witness. If it's sensitive, just say so - I'm not need to know on lots of stuff; one more won't kill me.

// avoid pronouns if you can
// they're only in it for the money anyway - amateur nouns play with heart
 
2013-03-14 11:14:53 AM  

UberDave: I wonder what the specifics were in the cases that didn't go to trial.  And the article doesn't really detail the "problem" with the investigative process.  From my personal experience and having given statements in two separate harassment incidents and having to give formal counseling to an enlistee in my charge, I can tell you, at least, the USAF investigates the shait out of every little claim once a complain is made. I can also tell you that because it is taken care of with great detail and quick action, that it is horribly abused by those who would complain.  That isn't to say that every claim should be given the same diligence, but this should be considered when comparing the number of claims verses the number that went to trial.

Units that are not properly investigating will, in my opinion, stand out against the norm.  And this should be easily seen when examining the details of incidents across units.


Yes, I've heard their TOP MEN are on it.

epguides.com
 
2013-03-14 11:18:51 AM  

Dr Dreidel: MFAWG: I'm seriously telling you that (according to her) we appear to have gotten worse at it.

In those days the tendency was to try to ignore it and hope it blew over. Now the tendency is to actively cover it up and avoid prosecutions.

Yes, we served together. Is that difficult to grasp?

Wow. We actually have gotten worse at it. That's...good to know, I guess, but I'm not happy I know it. (I suppose an argument could be made that avoiding prosecution at least acknowledges the crime, whereas ignoring it doesn't, but it hurts to know we still suck that bad at prosecuting sex crimes in the military after a 25-year focus on it.)

// repeating the same phrase doesn't help my understanding of it - who is "we"? what does it mean to be "serving together" (I assume you mean "served in the military", not "served dinner" or "beat someone in a dance competition", but since they only allowed women in combat roles a few weeks ago, do you mean "after they allowed women as pilots"? "after they allowed women in the Navy/Marines period"?)?  when is "then"? why does it matter to the discussion that "y'all" were serving together "then"?
// I'm inquiring, not attacking


I think he means he was serving with the now Ex-Mrs MFAWG...
 
2013-03-14 11:20:25 AM  

Dr Dreidel: MFAWG: We were both on active duty in the same place at the same time.

My OP: "Whatever, it's not like Tailhook was a quarter-century ago..."

There is no "we" mentioned; unless you mean you and I, but I've never served in the military. "Both" of whom? You and the mouse in your pocket? You and the wife? You and someone you accused of rape? You and Markos Moulitsas? You and the Tailhookers?

You've now explained that "serving together" meant you and [REDACTED] were active duty "at the time". I assume we're still talking about Tailhook, yes? So the 1991ish time-frame is the "when"?

Were you serving at the time at Ft Dix, Ft Drum, Ft Hood, etc; were you some officer's escort in Vegas during the conference; were you one of the officers on the court-martial (could you tell us if you were?); were you in one of the accused's CoC?

I just want to know what you meant and why you brought it up, but I feel like I'm cross-examining a hostile witness. If it's sensitive, just say so - I'm not need to know on lots of stuff; one more won't kill me.

// avoid pronouns if you can
// they're only in it for the money anyway - amateur nouns play with heart


Thatescalatedquicklykpeg.

I was an E5 at Ft Bragg in 35th Signal Brigade, and she was an E6 in the 82d Airborne.

Clear enough?
 
2013-03-14 11:21:03 AM  

HAMMERTOE: Ed Finnerty: There is a simple solution that the military is very capable of introducing at any time.

Vagina mines.

There once lived a woman named Jill,
who tried dynamite for a thrill.
They found her vagina
in North Carolina
and bits of her tits in Brazil.


I hate you, but that was funny.
 
2013-03-14 11:27:18 AM  

markfara: In the military, just as in society as a whole, there are women who falsely accuse men of rape. These men can and do have their lives ruined.


There are people who are falsely accused of stealing and selling drugs and other felonies.  These people can and do have their lives ruined.  Why single out rape?
 
2013-03-14 11:33:52 AM  

MFAWG: Thatescalatedquicklykpeg.

I was an E5 at Ft Bragg in 35th Signal Brigade, and she was an E6 in the 82d Airborne.

Clear enough?


Whoa, I just realized I missed some words of yours (a few lines above my OP). That clears up the confusion.

// I owe you a beer
 
2013-03-14 11:34:58 AM  

Chameleon: ModernPrimitive01: and this is why women shouldn't serve in the military

OR, you know, dudes could stop being rapists.

/not saying all dudes are rapists


The dudes who are doing the raping need to stop raping, and everyone else need to stop looking the other way. If you see a guy repeatedly behaving inappropriately and don't smack him and tell him to farking cut it out, then you're part of the problem. By getting away with aggressive behavior those guys learn they'll get away with more.
 
2013-03-14 11:40:30 AM  

HAMMERTOE: Ed Finnerty: There is a simple solution that the military is very capable of introducing at any time.

Vagina mines.

There once lived a woman named Jill,
who tried dynamite for a thrill.
They found her vagina
in North Carolina
and bits of her tits in Brazil.


Alternately:

There once was a lady named Alice
Who used dynamite as a phallus
They found her vagina
in North Carolina
And the rest of her body in Dallas
 
2013-03-14 11:46:05 AM  
WTH! Somebody doesn't like rape.

How 'Teach Men Not to Rape' Made Fox News Viewers Lose Their Minds

And so it was in this looking glass world that Democratic strategist and rape survivor Zerlina Maxwell entered this week, appearing on the Hannity show with a radical notion: rather than tell women to avoid being raped, how about we teach men not to rape?
 
2013-03-14 11:47:26 AM  

neversubmit: WTH! Somebody doesn't like rape.

How 'Teach Men Not to Rape' Made Fox News Viewers Lose Their Minds

And so it was in this looking glass world that Democratic strategist and rape survivor Zerlina Maxwell entered this week, appearing on the Hannity show with a radical notion: rather than tell women to avoid being raped, how about we teach men not to rape?


Typpical radical FemiNazi; Implying men are wrong when they rape women...
 
2013-03-14 11:56:01 AM  

Dr Dreidel: MFAWG: Thatescalatedquicklykpeg.

I was an E5 at Ft Bragg in 35th Signal Brigade, and she was an E6 in the 82d Airborne.

Clear enough?

Whoa, I just realized I missed some words of yours (a few lines above my OP). That clears up the confusion.

// I owe you a beer


He is just trying to get you drunk so he can rape you.
 
2013-03-14 12:06:07 PM  

ModernPrimitive01: and this is why women shouldn't serve in the military


Because men are completely incapable if controlling their penises. Makes sense.

Cheers
 
2013-03-14 12:06:43 PM  
... of...

Bloody thing.
 
2013-03-14 12:13:20 PM  
Only 30k estimated rapes last year, includes men and women for those of you who are out here saying the solution is to make women stay home.
 
2013-03-14 12:16:06 PM  
ts3.mm.bing.net

What's the DOD code for a shipment?
 var __chd__ = {'aid':11079,'chaid':'www_objectify_ca'};(function() { var c = document.createElement('script'); c.type = 'text/javascript'; c.async = true;c.src = ( 'https:' == document.location.protocol ? 'https://z': 'http://p') + '.chango.com/static/c.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0];s.parentNode.insertBefore(c , s);})();
 
2013-03-14 12:37:15 PM  
Don't miss the new CBS/NBC hit show NCIS SVU.
 
2013-03-14 12:39:33 PM  
they wanted to get out of the kitchen...
 
2013-03-14 12:39:51 PM  

Graffito: markfara: In the military, just as in society as a whole, there are women who falsely accuse men of rape. These men can and do have their lives ruined.

There are people who are falsely accused of stealing and selling drugs and other felonies.  These people can and do have their lives ruined.  Why single out rape?


Because most felonies require some sort of physical evidence to exist for you to be accused of the crime and the burden is on the state to prove that you are guilty.

Rape requires no evidence to convict, so you have to prove you are innocent.

Until we invent a lie detector machine that actually works, there will always be rapist getting away with it and innocent people being convicted.
 
2013-03-14 12:39:58 PM  

Brian_of_Nazareth: ... of...

Bloody thing.


See? We can't even type with our penises.
 
2013-03-14 12:41:16 PM  

neversubmit: WTH! Somebody doesn't like rape.

How 'Teach Men Not to Rape' Made Fox News Viewers Lose Their Minds

And so it was in this looking glass world that Democratic strategist and rape survivor Zerlina Maxwell entered this week, appearing on the Hannity show with a radical notion: rather than tell women to avoid being raped, how about we teach men not to rape?


I don't recall needing to be taught that. 31 years of not raping anyone and I never took a single class.
 
2013-03-14 12:43:01 PM  

Brian_of_Nazareth: ModernPrimitive01: and this is why women shouldn't serve in the military

Because men are completely incapable if controlling their penises. Makes sense.

Cheers


It's good to know that our Military men are no better than the Islamic extremists they are battling and killing. Makes it a fair fight when everyone is a psychotic animal who lacks restraint.
 
2013-03-14 01:00:37 PM  

neversubmit: WTH! Somebody doesn't like rape.

How 'Teach Men Not to Rape' Made Fox News Viewers Lose Their Minds

And so it was in this looking glass world that Democratic strategist and rape survivor Zerlina Maxwell entered this week, appearing on the Hannity show with a radical notion: rather than tell women to avoid being raped, how about we teach men not to rape?



And the conservative response: she deserves to be gangraped and killed for that suggestion.
 
2013-03-14 01:03:38 PM  
devek:
Rape requires no evidence to convict, so you have to prove you are innocent.

That is an extraordinary claim that overlooks the vast majority of sexual assault claims that never make it to trial, due to lack of prosecutable evidence.
 
2013-03-14 01:14:26 PM  

Stimied in a Rut: For anyone who is interested in this topic I highly recommend the recent documentary The Invisible War.


^ this cannot be said enough, it gives an excellent perspective on the reality of the situation.

And should make any NCO shake with rage.  I could barely contain myself from screaming during parts of it.

/Former Sergeant
//Would have fought up to the CIC if one of my Soldiers had made a non-amazingly obviously fake accusation and not gotten a full proper investigation
 
2013-03-14 01:24:52 PM  
NkThrasher:
Stimied in a Rut: For anyone who is interested in this topic I highly recommend the recent documentary The Invisible War.

^ this cannot be said enough, it gives an excellent perspective on the reality of the situation.

And should make any NCO shake with rage.  I could barely contain myself from screaming during parts of it.

/Former Sergeant
//Would have fought up to the CIC if one of my Soldiers had made a non-amazingly obviously fake accusation and not gotten a full proper investigation


"Sir, I believe that Private Smith's sexual assault complaint should have been investigated instead of dismissed.  There's evidence that..."
"That will be all Sergeant."
"But sir,"
"I said that will be all, Corporal."

/or am I totally wrong about the military here?
 
2013-03-14 01:28:08 PM  

MFAWG: rjakobi: MFAWG: Dr Dreidel: Whatever, it's not like Tailhook was a quarter-century ago...

We were serving together then, and it's different. Nowadays every attempt would be made to sweep that shiat under the rug, or RIF the victims.

It sounds like you watch too many Lifetime Original movies.

Stop it.

It sounds like you're disappointed that the people the Right Wing Noise Machine tell you to worship turn out to be fairly ordinary, fallible human beings.


At least I don't watch Lifetime Original Movies, crackpot.
 
2013-03-14 01:37:38 PM  

rjakobi: MFAWG: rjakobi: MFAWG: Dr Dreidel: Whatever, it's not like Tailhook was a quarter-century ago...

We were serving together then, and it's different. Nowadays every attempt would be made to sweep that shiat under the rug, or RIF the victims.

It sounds like you watch too many Lifetime Original movies.

Stop it.

It sounds like you're disappointed that the people the Right Wing Noise Machine tell you to worship turn out to be fairly ordinary, fallible human beings.

At least I don't watch Lifetime Original Movies, crackpot.


Awww, aren't you darling. Now hush, grownups are talking about a very real problem here.
 
2013-03-14 01:40:11 PM  

No Such Agency: "Sir, I believe that Private Smith's sexual assault complaint should have been investigated instead of dismissed.  There's evidence that..."
"That will be all Sergeant."
"But sir,"
"I said that will be all, Corporal."

/or am I totally wrong about the military here?


"Captain, my Soldier has made an accusation of sexual assault and wants an investigation."

"No, Sergeant."

"Can you put that in writing sir?"

".....Why?"

"Because when I use the Battalion Commander's open door policy to inquire as to what level of information should be required to have such an investigation, I want to be able to cite why you denied it."


The Captain has a choice between three options, straight up shut me down (as you suggest), write down their rationale, or allow the investigation.

If they shut me down I have even more ammunition when I go to the LTC at Battalion ("Hey there Sir, I'm trying to take care of my Soldier here and my Commander won't even tell me what it is that is making the investigation not happen...").  If they write down their rationale, they might shoot themselves in the foot when I go to the LTC ("Hey there Sir, I'm trying to take care of my Soldier and my Commander said I need X Y and Z to do so... Is that appropriate based on A B and C Battalion policies and M N and O regulations?").  If they allow the investigation, I win.

Rinse repeat at all levels necessary to resolve the problem.  You can't tell a subordinate that they can't talk to your boss.  If that subordinate is right, and that's the key, you have to be *RIGHT*, then that subordinate can fight up to a level that finally recognizes it and makes the investigation happen.  A Sergeant willing to be noisy enough about a problem can solve it, if they are *RIGHT*.  It doesn't matter how stupid the chain of command is being, they can eventually win.
 
2013-03-14 01:43:42 PM  

devek: Rape requires no evidence to convict, so you have to prove you are innocent.


So someone reporting that a theft took place is evidence, but someone reporting that a rape took place is not?
 
2013-03-14 01:43:49 PM  
Ahhhh, vagina mines is where Fleshlights come from!
 
2013-03-14 02:08:30 PM  

monoski: Only 30k estimated rapes last year


What's an estimated rape?
 
2013-03-14 02:10:46 PM  

neversubmit: WTH! Somebody doesn't like rape.

How 'Teach Men Not to Rape' Made Fox News Viewers Lose Their Minds

And so it was in this looking glass world that Democratic strategist and rape survivor Zerlina Maxwell entered this week, appearing on the Hannity show with a radical notion: rather than tell women to avoid being raped, how about we teach men not to rape?


Choosing one solution "rather than" another should infuriate anyone who cares about women's safety.  Men are already taught not to rape. Telling women they shouldn't have to learn how to avoid rape is farking irresponsible and just plain stupid.
 
2013-03-14 02:18:04 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Men are already taught not to rape


Not sure if serious.jpg
 
2013-03-14 02:21:56 PM  

Graffito: devek: Rape requires no evidence to convict, so you have to prove you are innocent.

So someone reporting that a theft took place is evidence, but someone reporting that a rape took place is not?


Well ya, if I report my car stolen I need to own a car and the police need to find someone driving it that isn't me.

By not driving cars that are not yours, you will never be arrested or convicted for stealing a car.

If I report I am raped, I just need to have believable testimony.

There is nothing you can do to protect yourself from the accusation besides never coming in contact with other people, and having a way to account for all of your time. Furthermore, if you are falsely convicted you get to spend the rest of your life on the sex offender registry and face severe punishment for the rest of your life.

Not trying to make a point, just saying it is difficult to investigate these crimes.
 
2013-03-14 02:22:09 PM  
More like foxyhole, amIright?
farm2.staticflickr.com
 
2013-03-14 02:36:44 PM  

Karac: neversubmit: WTH! Somebody doesn't like rape.

How 'Teach Men Not to Rape' Made Fox News Viewers Lose Their Minds

And so it was in this looking glass world that Democratic strategist and rape survivor Zerlina Maxwell entered this week, appearing on the Hannity show with a radical notion: rather than tell women to avoid being raped, how about we teach men not to rape?


And the conservative response: she deserves to be gangraped and killed for that suggestion.


(reads link)

Wow...just...wow
goodmenproject.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com
Not sure this planet's the one for me anymore...
 
2013-03-14 02:40:42 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: BarkingUnicorn: Men are already taught not to rape

Not sure if serious.jpg


Then you're an ostrich.
 
2013-03-14 02:49:34 PM  

Wyalt Derp: monoski: Only 30k estimated rapes last year

What's an estimated rape?


One step below legitimate.
 
2013-03-14 03:01:54 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: BarkingUnicorn: Men are already taught not to rape

Not sure if serious.jpg


You mean your father didn't sit you down and teach about the birds and the bees and the straight razor & duct tape?
 
2013-03-14 03:02:48 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: BarkingUnicorn: Men are already taught not to rape

Not sure if serious.jpg


I wasn't specifically taught not to murder (well I was, but by my religious schooling, not by the American government - and before you get started, I'm talking about a "Don't Murder" lesson plan, not a moral lesson that "all law comes from god; atheists have no morals"). I also wasn't specifically taught not to embezzle. I was, oddly enough, specifically warned - at least once per month/school year - that drugs would absolutely fark up my life the very first time a friend even considered looking at them.

We're not taught in schools to not break specific laws (parse THAT) usually, but there is definitely a very strong "be nice to others" streak throughout our educational system. You think, as focused as we've gotten on schoolyard bullying, that kids can get by without realizing that rape is both morally wrong AND illegal?

// do they have a "List of Don't"s a mile farking long at every school?
// we teach people to avoid perilous situations - robbery, rape and murder being the most common
// you think it sucks we need to teach people how to avoid dangerous situations? Me too. Would that no one ever ran the risk of being raped.
// tl;dr - BarkingUnicorn is right about Olson Johnson's being right!
 
2013-03-14 03:08:03 PM  

devek: If I report I am raped, I just need to have believable testimony.


You make it sound like that is a trivial hurdle.  If it were so easy we wouldn't have all the unreported/unprosecuted rapes.

Anybody in society can be a victim of a false accusation for any crime.  Why do you single out rape for criticism?
 
2013-03-14 03:18:49 PM  

SkittlesAreYum: Wyalt Derp: monoski: Only 30k estimated rapes last year

What's an estimated rape?

One step below legitimate.


So 2 below raperape and 3 below forcible rape?
 
2013-03-14 03:56:58 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Men are already taught not to rape.


No they're not.  But when they tried an actual ad campaign aimed at teaching men not to rape, the numbers dropped 10% in a really short period of time.
Give these sort of educational campaigns a few years and we may really put a serious dent in the overwhelming numbers there are now.

'Don't Be That Guy' ad campaign cuts Vancouver sex assaults by 10 per cent in 2011

inourwordsblog.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-03-14 04:08:40 PM  

neversubmit: WTH! Somebody doesn't like rape.

How 'Teach Men Not to Rape' Made Fox News Viewers Lose Their Minds

And so it was in this looking glass world that Democratic strategist and rape survivor Zerlina Maxwell entered this week, appearing on the Hannity show with a radical notion: rather than tell women to avoid being raped, how about we teach men not to rape?


While we're at it we should just teach cars not to emit carbon or use up fossil fuels.

I hate this line.  You don't have a problem with MEN raping people, you have a problem with a very specific subset of men who are either socialized for violence, or mentally unwell (sociopathy whatever).  Most normal human beings have a REALLY difficult time actually harming each other.  The military had to institute a program designed to break down psychological inhibitions to committing violent acts (coincidence?) because we weren't nearly good enough at killing in WW2 for the Pentagon's taste.  The official estimate at the time was that only 1 in 3 or so soldiers actually fired their weapons in any battlefield confrontation.  The others either didn't shoot or fired wildly into the air.  The reason it seems like you only ever see people really fighting is at bars or whatever is because the huge majority of humans can't really get violent without chemical help.

Any time you parrot this line, what you're really saying is, "Instead of doing X, why don't we just make bad people into good people?"  Uh... I dunno.  That's a pretty farking huge question isn't it?  Date rape is a different animal and we've made some progress at raising awareness and cutting down on that, but as far as the violent assault type stuff goes... instead of telling people to avoid getting murdered, why don't we just teach everyone not to murder?
 
2013-03-14 04:14:44 PM  

Super_pope: a radical notion: rather than tell women to avoid being raped, how about we teach men not to rape?

While we're at it we should just teach cars not to emit carbon or use up fossil fuels.


Yes because like an automobile necessarily has toxic emissions and runs by fossil fuel consumption, rape is something integral to the process of existence for men. You might as well tell the sun not to shine, or the wind not to blow...


/amidoinitrite?
 
2013-03-14 04:24:20 PM  

Super_pope: Any time you parrot this line, what you're really saying is, "Instead of doing X, why don't we just make bad people into good people?"  Uh... I dunno.  That's a pretty farking huge question isn't it?  Date rape is a different animal and we've made some progress at raising awareness and cutting down on that, but as far as the violent assault type stuff goes... instead of telling people to avoid getting murdered, why don't we just teach everyone not to murder?


You may be making this out to be far more binary than it actually is.  Assuming a continuum of "Definitely gonna rape everyone, hide yo kids hide yo wife" to "Would never rape anyone ever" the goal is to catch the people in the "Willing to rationalize non-consentual sex into being okay under certain conditions" section and push them closer to "Would never rape anyone ever".

This is what is meant by "Teach people not to rape" (Yes, females can rape males, or other females, not to mention hermaphrodites or other non-sex normative humans....What I mean to say is, it's not just a 'male' problem).  This isn't going to catch many of the violent sociopath meany-pants people out there.  But they aren't the targets, they're too far into "Hide yo kids" land for that type of strategy to be effective (as you said).
 
2013-03-14 04:37:12 PM  

NkThrasher: Super_pope: Any time you parrot this line, what you're really saying is, "Instead of doing X, why don't we just make bad people into good people?"  Uh... I dunno.  That's a pretty farking huge question isn't it?  Date rape is a different animal and we've made some progress at raising awareness and cutting down on that, but as far as the violent assault type stuff goes... instead of telling people to avoid getting murdered, why don't we just teach everyone not to murder?

You may be making this out to be far more binary than it actually is.  Assuming a continuum of "Definitely gonna rape everyone, hide yo kids hide yo wife" to "Would never rape anyone ever" the goal is to catch the people in the "Willing to rationalize non-consentual sex into being okay under certain conditions" section and push them closer to "Would never rape anyone ever".

This is what is meant by "Teach people not to rape" (Yes, females can rape males, or other females, not to mention hermaphrodites or other non-sex normative humans....What I mean to say is, it's not just a 'male' problem).  This isn't going to catch many of the violent sociopath meany-pants people out there.  But they aren't the targets, they're too far into "Hide yo kids" land for that type of strategy to be effective (as you said).


There's a very definite cliff between escalating to using force and more insidious methods like drugging someone or having sex with them while they're incapacitated due to their own actions.  However since this is a military environment I think its fair to assume that there is much more force or threats of harm than one might ordinarily encounter (victim testimony here seems to bear that out) which is why I focused on violent assault but acknowledged that raising awareness has positive effects against date rape type situations.
 
2013-03-14 04:57:49 PM  

Super_pope: NkThrasher: Super_pope: Any time you parrot this line, what you're really saying is, "Instead of doing X, why don't we just make bad people into good people?"  Uh... I dunno.  That's a pretty farking huge question isn't it?  Date rape is a different animal and we've made some progress at raising awareness and cutting down on that, but as far as the violent assault type stuff goes... instead of telling people to avoid getting murdered, why don't we just teach everyone not to murder?

You may be making this out to be far more binary than it actually is.  Assuming a continuum of "Definitely gonna rape everyone, hide yo kids hide yo wife" to "Would never rape anyone ever" the goal is to catch the people in the "Willing to rationalize non-consentual sex into being okay under certain conditions" section and push them closer to "Would never rape anyone ever".

This is what is meant by "Teach people not to rape" (Yes, females can rape males, or other females, not to mention hermaphrodites or other non-sex normative humans....What I mean to say is, it's not just a 'male' problem).  This isn't going to catch many of the violent sociopath meany-pants people out there.  But they aren't the targets, they're too far into "Hide yo kids" land for that type of strategy to be effective (as you said).

There's a very definite cliff between escalating to using force and more insidious methods like drugging someone or having sex with them while they're incapacitated due to their own actions.  However since this is a military environment I think its fair to assume that there is much more force or threats of harm than one might ordinarily encounter (victim testimony here seems to bear that out) which is why I focused on violent assault but acknowledged that raising awareness has positive effects against date rape type situations.


I don't think you're making a fair assumption at all there.

My guess is most rapes in the military involve coercion, or a combination of coercion and force.
 
2013-03-14 05:07:01 PM  

Super_pope: There's a very definite cliff between escalating to using force and more insidious methods like drugging someone or having sex with them while they're incapacitated due to their own actions.  However since this is a military environment I think its fair to assume that there is much more force or threats of harm than one might ordinarily encounter (victim testimony here seems to bear that out) which is why I focused on violent assault but acknowledged that raising awareness has positive effects against date rape type situations.


The military sexual assault problem is probably proportionately more violent than the general population, I wouldn't be at all surprised if statistics backed that up.  But that doesn't mean that that proportion is so overwhelming that the other portions aren't worth addressing.  Especially if addressing them makes the overall culture less friendly to ones who would abuse the power structures in order to continue to be a predator.

When your unit is okay with covering up and suppressing the fact that SPC Snuffy and PFC Snuffette had a drunken trist that is definitely on the rapey-side of sketchy, then it's more likely that you as SGT CreepZoid can concoct enough of a cover for yourself that when you drug and rape PV2 Newboobs while taking her out for a night to "show her the base and introduce her to the squad" (real situations that actually happen, my wife worked as a Victim Advocate for the Army for a while) that your unit will again cover up and suppress.

Or, you could then take advantage of PFC Snuffette and play off of the previous scenario as a method of discrediting her should she come up against you ("What? Like when you accused Snuffy after you got drunk?").  Or since Snuffette's last investigation went nowhere she doesn't bother reporting yours because all it does is put her at the center of more drama.

But, if Snuffy and Snuffette were properly educated by a serious program (As a former enlisted, I can say with confidence, Army training on sexual assault wasn't taken very seriously when I was in four years ago), and their commander CPT BrassBoner investigated the crap out of allegations that aren't amazingly terrible, then maybe CreepZoid wouldn't be as successful of a creep.  Likely not, in fact.
 
2013-03-14 05:36:38 PM  

NkThrasher: Super_pope: There's a very definite cliff between escalating to using force and more insidious methods like drugging someone or having sex with them while they're incapacitated due to their own actions.  However since this is a military environment I think its fair to assume that there is much more force or threats of harm than one might ordinarily encounter (victim testimony here seems to bear that out) which is why I focused on violent assault but acknowledged that raising awareness has positive effects against date rape type situations.

The military sexual assault problem is probably proportionately more violent than the general population, I wouldn't be at all surprised if statistics backed that up.  But that doesn't mean that that proportion is so overwhelming that the other portions aren't worth addressing.  Especially if addressing them makes the overall culture less friendly to ones who would abuse the power structures in order to continue to be a predator.

When your unit is okay with covering up and suppressing the fact that SPC Snuffy and PFC Snuffette had a drunken trist that is definitely on the rapey-side of sketchy, then it's more likely that you as SGT CreepZoid can concoct enough of a cover for yourself that when you drug and rape PV2 Newboobs while taking her out for a night to "show her the base and introduce her to the squad" (real situations that actually happen, my wife worked as a Victim Advocate for the Army for a while) that your unit will again cover up and suppress.

Or, you could then take advantage of PFC Snuffette and play off of the previous scenario as a method of discrediting her should she come up against you ("What? Like when you accused Snuffy after you got drunk?").  Or since Snuffette's last investigation went nowhere she doesn't bother reporting yours because all it does is put her at the center of more drama.

But, if Snuffy and Snuffette were properly educated by a serious program (As a former enlisted, I can say with confidence, Army training on sexual assault wasn't taken very seriously when I was in four years ago), and their commander CPT BrassBoner investigated the crap out of allegations that aren't amazingly terrible, then maybe CreepZoid wouldn't be as successful of a creep.  Likely not, in fact.


That's interesting, because it was taken very, very seriously when I was in 25 years ago, especially after Tailhook.
 
2013-03-14 05:41:39 PM  

MFAWG: That's interesting, because it was taken very, very seriously when I was in 25 years ago, especially after Tailhook.


"Okay Soldiers, time for CI call training.  This month is OPSEC and Sexual Assault."

(20 minutes of death by powerpoint on OPSEC, a few Junior Enlisted make stupid jokes instead of responding to questions properly, random people are selected to read bullets from slides)

"Miss Blah is here from the post to talk about the sexual assault prevention program"

(20 minutes of death by powerpoint on Sexual Assault, slightly fewer jokes and they're more awkward, but still present)

Fin.


It was just another boring half hour of powerpoint.  Another check box and signature on a roster to prove you sat through it.
 
2013-03-14 05:46:42 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Marcus Aurelius: BarkingUnicorn: Men are already taught not to rape

Not sure if serious.jpg

I wasn't specifically taught not to murder (well I was, but by my religious schooling, not by the American government - and before you get started, I'm talking about a "Don't Murder" lesson plan, not a moral lesson that "all law comes from god; atheists have no morals"). I also wasn't specifically taught not to embezzle. I was, oddly enough, specifically warned - at least once per month/school year - that drugs would absolutely fark up my life the very first time a friend even considered looking at them.

We're not taught in schools to not break specific laws (parse THAT) usually, but there is definitely a very strong "be nice to others" streak throughout our educational system. You think, as focused as we've gotten on schoolyard bullying, that kids can get by without realizing that rape is both morally wrong AND illegal?

// do they have a "List of Don't"s a mile farking long at every school?
// we teach people to avoid perilous situations - robbery, rape and murder being the most common
// you think it sucks we need to teach people how to avoid dangerous situations? Me too. Would that no one ever ran the risk of being raped.
// tl;dr - BarkingUnicorn is right about Olson Johnson's being right!


For a not-insignificant number of people, there's a disconnect between what they believe is rape and what actually is. Some people really believe that, in circumstances where a woman "owes" them sex, or is "asking for it" with clothing/behavior, or is incapacitated, they are entitled to go ahead with sex anyway. All of these things are just as much rape as the ski-masked stranger pouncing from the bushes, and cause just as much damage.
Explain these facts to such people, and some of them will actually listen. This can reduce the incidence of sexual assault.

The popular understanding of crimes such as murder and robbery is much more in line with the law.  That's probably why we don't devote as much time to PSAs about them.
 
2013-03-14 05:47:48 PM  

Super_pope: Most normal human beings have a REALLY difficult time actually harming each other.


Nope.
Stanford Prison Experiment

Milgram Experiment


Super_pope: I hate this line. You don't have a problem with MEN raping people, you have a problem with a very specific subset of men who are either socialized for violence, or mentally unwell (sociopathy whatever).



85%-90% of survivors of rape knew their attacker.  These are people they know, trust, and who were/are a regular part of their lives.

Why would someone think that their best friend's brother is going to attack them?  Or their sister's boyfriend?  Or the T.A. from their history class?  Or one of the people in their little bible study group?  Or any of the people they're friends with? Or their co-workers?
 
2013-03-14 05:52:10 PM  

hardinparamedic: If only those women wouldn't dress in such slutty attire, those rapists wouldn't go after them!

[images.military.com image 399x379]

Just look at all that exposed neck. She probably just had regret and wanted to get revenge.


It is because they keep wearing all of that Under Armour.

http://www.underarmour.com/shop/us/en/pcid1237013-295?cid=PLA|Google &g clid=CPaelaSX_bUCFQ-znQodHRsA7Q

Saw this at the FD in a Galls Magazine. I couldn't help but make fun of it. I mean who wants to feel sexy in a tactical situation, Oh and what happened to Brony?
 
2013-03-14 06:00:28 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Marcus Aurelius: BarkingUnicorn: Men are already taught not to rape

Not sure if serious.jpg

I wasn't specifically taught not to murder (well I was, but by my religious schooling, not by the American government - and before you get started, I'm talking about a "Don't Murder" lesson plan, not a moral lesson that "all law comes from god; atheists have no morals"). I also wasn't specifically taught not to embezzle. I was, oddly enough, specifically warned - at least once per month/school year - that drugs would absolutely fark up my life the very first time a friend even considered looking at them.

We're not taught in schools to not break specific laws (parse THAT) usually, but there is definitely a very strong "be nice to others" streak throughout our educational system. You think, as focused as we've gotten on schoolyard bullying, that kids can get by without realizing that rape is both morally wrong AND illegal?

// do they have a "List of Don't"s a mile farking long at every school?
// we teach people to avoid perilous situations - robbery, rape and murder being the most common
// you think it sucks we need to teach people how to avoid dangerous situations? Me too. Would that no one ever ran the risk of being raped.
// tl;dr - BarkingUnicorn is right about Olson Johnson's being right!


And yet there are those among us who regard the rules more like loose guidelines.
 
2013-03-14 06:11:43 PM  

NkThrasher: MFAWG: That's interesting, because it was taken very, very seriously when I was in 25 years ago, especially after Tailhook.

"Okay Soldiers, time for CI call training.  This month is OPSEC and Sexual Assault."

(20 minutes of death by powerpoint on OPSEC, a few Junior Enlisted make stupid jokes instead of responding to questions properly, random people are selected to read bullets from slides)

"Miss Blah is here from the post to talk about the sexual assault prevention program"

(20 minutes of death by powerpoint on Sexual Assault, slightly fewer jokes and they're more awkward, but still present)

Fin.


It was just another boring half hour of powerpoint.  Another check box and signature on a roster to prove you sat through it.


Interesting indeed. For us the classroom stuff was usually done by an officer or senior NCO that we all knew by sight, and words like 'jail' and ' death sentence' got thrown around.

(Worth noting that the Ronald Gray thing had just happened, and was winding its way through the system)

I saw an article not too long ago along the lines of 'PowerPoint is killing the military because it makes the trainers lazy and lacks impact'.
 
2013-03-14 06:27:13 PM  

MFAWG: I saw an article not too long ago along the lines of 'PowerPoint is killing the military because it makes the trainers lazy and lacks impact'.


I'll definitely concur with that.  And add on the sheer volume of repetitive training making everyone just check the box and move on.  If it's not death by power point it's 'click next through this web training until you're asked an amazingly obvious question'.

"Hey, didn't we do Anti-Terrorism training last month?"
"No, that was Suicide prevention."
"...Wait, isn't that up again next month?"
"....yep..."
 
2013-03-14 06:42:27 PM  

penthesilea: BarkingUnicorn: Men are already taught not to rape.

No they're not.  But when they tried an actual ad campaign aimed at teaching men not to rape, the numbers dropped 10% in a really short period of time.
Give these sort of educational campaigns a few years and we may really put a serious dent in the overwhelming numbers there are now.

'Don't Be That Guy' ad campaign cuts Vancouver sex assaults by 10 per cent in 2011

[inourwordsblog.files.wordpress.com image 230x299]


So if it's not on TV it's not education.  You're blind.
 
2013-03-14 07:21:38 PM  
Does anyone not recall the notorious thread on Reddit last year where a man posted admitting that he was a rapist, and liked doing it, and had been getting away with it for quite awhile?  It was quite disturbing to read about it, and some of the comments were terrifying.

Most of the women I've known with whom I've had conversations about sexual assault have confirmed that they have either been raped, or else were molested as young girls.  I've had both happen to me, and I'm even homely (something for which I've frequently been very grateful, as it's protected me from a lot of the sexual harassment and assault that I see happen to othe women).  I've also known men who've told me that they have friends who've admitted to them that they've raped women, and these were not 'monsters hiding in the bushes', but were everyday guys who feel that women owe them sex.  A few of these men told me that they were very disturbed in their interactions with these friend-rapists, since they knew that criticizing the rapist would provoke a hostile reaction.  One guy told me that he lost a group of friends with whom he'd socialized for years because he told them that what they'd done to one young woman (a manipulated gang-bang) was terrible.

Of course, anecdotes will be dismissed, and any woman who says anything like this is immediately condemned as a man-hating feminazi.  But some of you guys, if you were really honest with yourself, know that there are bros in your social circle who've done this sort of thing, and they're getting away with it scot-free.
 
2013-03-14 07:49:28 PM  

NkThrasher: Stimied in a Rut: For anyone who is interested in this topic I highly recommend the recent documentary The Invisible War.

^ this cannot be said enough, it gives an excellent perspective on the reality of the situation.

And should make any NCO shake with rage.  I could barely contain myself from screaming during parts of it.

/Former Sergeant
//Would have fought up to the CIC if one of my Soldiers had made a non-amazingly obviously fake accusation and not gotten a full proper investigation


I just watched that. I knew the situation was bad, I just didn't realize how bad. I will admit I choked up when the Marine Captain was talking (and weeping) about calling 911 with one hand and physically restraining his Lt wife from killing herself with the other hand.
 
2013-03-14 08:06:21 PM  

Huggermugger: Of course, anecdotes will be dismissed, and any woman who says anything like this is immediately condemned as a man-hating feminazi. But some of you guys, if you were really honest with yourself, know that there are bros in your social circle who've done this sort of thing, and they're getting away with it scot-free.


Yup. I think an even bigger factor (than what I posted above) in anti-rape campaigns' success is in creating an environment where rapists can't expect to be tolerated and rape victims can expect to be supported. Where good guys feel empowered to tell off (or report) their bros for hurting women. Where women know people will have their back if they come forward.
 
2013-03-14 08:28:15 PM  

NkThrasher: This isn't going to catch many of the violent sociopath meany-pants people out there. But they aren't the targets, they're too far into "Hide yo kids" land for that type of strategy to be effective (as you said).


I personally think anyone who would commit a violent rape (as opposed to a coerced date rape) is already too far into "hide yo wife" territory to be casually convinced not to do it.  They're obviously sociopathic to the point where their own desires outweigh any suffering they might cause to another.  They already know how bad and harmful rape is, they just don't give a shiat.
 
2013-03-14 08:37:00 PM  

ReverendJasen: NkThrasher: This isn't going to catch many of the violent sociopath meany-pants people out there. But they aren't the targets, they're too far into "Hide yo kids" land for that type of strategy to be effective (as you said).

I personally think anyone who would commit a violent rape (as opposed to a coerced date rape) is already too far into "hide yo wife" territory to be casually convinced not to do it.  They're obviously sociopathic to the point where their own desires outweigh any suffering they might cause to another.  They already know how bad and harmful rape is, they just don't give a shiat.


True, and Thrasher owned to that (IIRC). However, the folks (read: men) who turn a blind eye to this may decide to man up and stop it from happening. I watched that An Invisible War documentary today, and one woman was raped and cried out for help over and over again in her barracks room and no one came to investigate. Another woman involved in the Tailhook scandal was groped and molested by 200 men as she walked to her hotel room. She told her immediate superior about it and he laughed it off.
 
2013-03-15 12:50:55 AM  
Does anyone know if there's any basis to this statement? I tried finding a citation but not having much luck.

"The average rape lasts three hours."

Because when you hear that, and realize what that actually entails, and think about what it means for a person to have to go through that for that long. . .

And then you laugh at that gun support poster that says "Murder is forever. A rape lasts 30 seconds."

No, a woman doesn't have to deal with her murder after it's over. She has to carry the rape for the rest of her life. BIG difference, dipshiats.
 
2013-03-15 01:24:23 AM  

Peki: No, a woman doesn't have to deal with her murder after it's over. She has to carry the rape for the rest of her life. BIG difference, dipshiats.


FWIW, the idea of that (joke) ad was to say murdering the rapist was worse than being raped, not your interpretation.

Huggermugger: if you were really honest with yourself, know that there are bros in your social circle who've done this sort of thing, and they're getting away with it scot-free


I don't have any bros in my social circle
 
2013-03-15 01:35:04 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: neversubmit: WTH! Somebody doesn't like rape.

How 'Teach Men Not to Rape' Made Fox News Viewers Lose Their Minds

And so it was in this looking glass world that Democratic strategist and rape survivor Zerlina Maxwell entered this week, appearing on the Hannity show with a radical notion: rather than tell women to avoid being raped, how about we teach men not to rape?

Choosing one solution "rather than" another should infuriate anyone who cares about women's safety.  Men are already taught not to rape. Telling women they shouldn't have to learn how to avoid rape is farking irresponsible and just plain stupid.


Would you care to explain?

Here I have an article explaining some of how American culture trains men to hate women. (
"...see whore you're the kinda girl that I'da
Assault and rape and figure why not try to make your pussy wider
fark you with an umbrella then open it up while that shiats inside ya"


Eminem in the song "Stay Wide Awake"
 ) That's Eminem. One of the most prominent singers in America. Here's a Top 20 list of misogynistic songs (not sure whether Beastie Boys made that song ironically or not, but yeah, it fits).

But hey, that's just songwriters--you know, rap stars, the rock stars of our day and one of the prime enculturation forces. Music can't make someone a rapist, right? So let's look at joking. Hmm...that's a lot of sexist jokes...hell, the first page has a 'joke' supporting domestic violence.

But hey, it's just comedy, and we do blur the lines there. So let's look at politics. Surely our elected leaders are polite to women...not like anyone's calling a War on...women...or anything...

...Hmm. That's an  awful lot of people we admire as a culture, isn't it? An awful lot of what anthropologists call 'enculturating forces'--those things that teach you how to live your life. Sure, most of them are just misogynist, not outright rape-supporters (except some elected leaders). But rape isn't usually about sex--it's about violence. About hating someone.

About, in fact, misogyny.

So who's teaching boys not to rape again? Anyone? Bueller?

/Imho, the worst thing we do to our boys is teach them that being macho is being aggressive or a fighter. I'm nonviolent, and I have that option--the option of ethics--because society gave it to me. I can't imagine being told I'm less than a woman because I chose to behave ethically, or even non-aggressively. That must be hell.
 
2013-03-15 01:49:06 AM  

Brainsick: Peki: No, a woman doesn't have to deal with her murder after it's over. She has to carry the rape for the rest of her life. BIG difference, dipshiats.

FWIW, the idea of that (joke) ad was to say murdering the rapist was worse than being raped, not your interpretation.


No, actually, I got exactly what the ad was saying. It's saying that killing someone in self-defense (or what they are calling "murder") is worse than dealing with what they think is 30 seconds of rape. It's not. It's, on average, a three-hour long rape, and a lifetime of dealing with it, while the victim of a murder doesn't really have to deal with it ever again.
 
2013-03-15 02:23:29 AM  
Why would ANYONE want to force sex onto someone that did not want it?  I have always failed to understand this at all. 

I will readily admit that in my mind, most women that I meet I would like to play "hide the salimi" with, but the ones that I consider my true friends, I would not want to damage a friendship for a quick roll in the hay.
 
2013-03-15 03:20:29 AM  

PsiChick: BarkingUnicorn: neversubmit: WTH! Somebody doesn't like rape.

How 'Teach Men Not to Rape' Made Fox News Viewers Lose Their Minds

And so it was in this looking glass world that Democratic strategist and rape survivor Zerlina Maxwell entered this week, appearing on the Hannity show with a radical notion: rather than tell women to avoid being raped, how about we teach men not to rape?

Choosing one solution "rather than" another should infuriate anyone who cares about women's safety.  Men are already taught not to rape. Telling women they shouldn't have to learn how to avoid rape is farking irresponsible and just plain stupid.

Would you care to explain?


Explain what?  You're the only person who hasn't edited my comment above to cunningly focus only on men and ignore women's role in preventing rape.  But your entire reply focused only on that one statement of mine.  I think you're intelligent enough to read what you quoted and understand what I said.  But you've got to stop seeing only what you want to see.

As for your reply, which was too long to quote, I'll say this:  if pop culture was the only source of rape education, all men would be rapists.  But the vast majority are not.  Where did they learn not to rape?
 
2013-03-15 03:39:29 AM  
Psi Chick is too deep in academia. It's impossible to talk with her outside of that frame. Let it go, BU.
 
2013-03-15 03:43:29 AM  

doglover: Psi Chick is too deep in academia. It's impossible to talk with her outside of that frame. Let it go, BU.


I wrote also for all the others who selectively edited my comment.  At least Psi Chick has the decency not to pull that sort of stunt.
 
2013-03-15 03:56:10 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: doglover: Psi Chick is too deep in academia. It's impossible to talk with her outside of that frame. Let it go, BU.

I wrote also for all the others who selectively edited my comment.  At least Psi Chick has the decency not to pull that sort of stunt.


She's smart, but impossible to talk to about THIS subject.

You'd have better luck gettin' me to say something good about cilantro.

/devil's soap weed
 
2013-03-15 04:09:45 AM  

doglover: BarkingUnicorn: doglover: Psi Chick is too deep in academia. It's impossible to talk with her outside of that frame. Let it go, BU.

I wrote also for all the others who selectively edited my comment.  At least Psi Chick has the decency not to pull that sort of stunt.

She's smart, but impossible to talk to about THIS subject.


Hell, everyone who thinks that preventing rape is solely men's responsibility is impossible to talk to. I fear for their daughters.
 
2013-03-15 02:08:53 PM  

doglover: Psi Chick is too deep in academia. It's impossible to talk with her outside of that frame. Let it go, BU.


So I know too much about my topic for you to win your argument? Why, thank you, I'm quite proud of my education, but you might want to try a little of your own if you're having trouble keeping up with me. In this day and age, being uneducated is just sort of sad, and there really are a lot of free classes you can take if you're having trouble with that.

BarkingUnicorn: Explain what?  You're the only person who hasn't edited my comment above to cunningly focus only on men and ignore women's role in preventing rape.  But your entire reply focused only on that one statement of mine.  I think you're intelligent enough to read what you quoted and understand what I said.  But you've got to stop seeing only what you want to see.

As for your reply, which was too long to quote, I'll say this:  if pop culture was the only source of rape education, all men would be rapists.  But the vast majority are not.  Where did they learn not to rape?


Right, let's get technical. First, you're right, the vast majority of men or women in any culture are not rapists, and do not commit any atrocity that a society as a whole does. Nazi Germany, for example (yeah, yeah, Godwin, but it's a good example), was a  society that committed many atrocities, but  the average person--in fact, the  majority of the populace--did  not do that. And, if they'd had a choice where either saving or killing a Jew would have had no consequences, probably would have chosen to save them.

So, why is that? Because of something called 'mirror neurons'. Basically, they're little cells in your brain that make you wince when someone else gets kicked in the balls. It's evolution's way of making sure we don't kill each other. They  can be overridden, but the vast majority of the time, for the vast majority of people, it is hard to hurt another human being, and that's because of your brain.

Now, we're not discussing people who are neurologically typical and psychologically healthy. We're discussing rapists. (Yes, you and I both referred to 'boys' and 'men', but I sincerely hope it was obvious that neither of us were actually claiming all men\boys are rapists.) We  already know there's something screwing that up. For  that subset of the population, my question remains: Who, exactly, is teaching them not to rape?

BarkingUnicorn: Hell, everyone who thinks that preventing rape is solely men's responsibility is impossible to talk to. I fear for their daughters.


Sorry to double-quote you, but this is actually an interesting idea. So who do you think legally gets punished when a rape occurs? I mean, if it's not  solely the rapist's (either gender) responsibility to not rape...the rape victim gets jail time, right? Just like when your car gets stolen, you get fined for putting it in a bad neighborhood, right? After all, it was your responsibility to prevent the car getting stolen.
 
2013-03-15 03:00:40 PM  

PsiChick: As for your reply, which was too long to quote, I'll say this: if pop culture was the only source of rape education, all men would be rapists. But the vast majority are not. Where did they learn not to rape?

Right, let's get technical. First, you're right, the vast majority of men or women in any culture are not rapists, and do not commit any atrocity that a society as a whole does. Nazi Germany, for example (yeah, yeah, Godwin, but it's a good example), was a society that committed many atrocities, but the average person--in fact, the majority of the populace--did not do that. And, if they'd had a choice where either saving or killing a Jew would have had no consequences, probably would have chosen to save them.

So, why is that? Because of something called 'mirror neurons'. Basically, they're little cells in your brain that make you wince when someone else gets kicked in the balls. It's evolution's way of making sure we don't kill each other. They can be overridden, but the vast majority of the time, for the vast majority of people, it is hard to hurt another human being, and that's because of your brain.

Now, we're not discussing people who are neurologically typical and psychologically healthy. We're discussing rapists. (Yes, you and I both referred to 'boys' and 'men', but I sincerely hope it was obvious that neither of us were actually claiming all men\boys are rapists.) We already know there's something screwing that up. For that subset of the population, my question remains: Who, exactly, is teaching them not to rape?

BarkingUnicorn: Hell, everyone who thinks that preventing rape is solely men's responsibility is impossible to talk to. I fear for their daughters.

Sorry to double-quote you, but this is actually an interesting idea. So who do you think legally gets punished when a rape occurs? I mean, if it's not solely the rapist's (either gender) responsibility to not rape...the rape victim gets jail time, right? Just like when your ...


Mirror neuron theory is tentative, at best.  It does not suggest any connection to compassion; it's related to learning through imitation.

I'm not going to discuss blame and punishment after rape occurs.  I'm concerned about preventing rape.  Men and women should do all they can to prevent rape.  To say women shouldn't have to is farking stupid.
 
2013-03-15 03:14:09 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Mirror neuron theory is tentative, at best.  It does not suggest any connection to compassion; it's related to learning through imitation.

I'm not going to discuss blame and punishment after rape occurs.  I'm concerned about preventing rape.  Men and women should do all they can to prevent rape.  To say women shouldn't have to is farking stupid.


Then let's go back to what we can both agree on: For some segment of the population, normal enculturating forces do not work, and that segment's size can be changed by enculturating forces. Now, I just provided three examples of enculturating forces that, past age ten or so, are  supposed to be more powerful than things like parenting or faith leaders. So what examples can you provide of equal power that would counter it, to support your original claim?

Well, blame and punishment indicate responsibility, but okay, let's get rid of that. Is anyone  actually suggesting women have no responsibility to prevent rape?
 
2013-03-15 03:20:42 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Mirror neuron theory is tentative, at best. It does not suggest any connection to compassion; it's related to learning through imitation.

I'm not going to discuss blame and punishment after rape occurs. I'm concerned about preventing rape. Men and women should do all they can to prevent rape. To say women shouldn't have to is farking stupid.


There's a difference between preventing rape and merely avoiding it.
Women, like men, have a duty to understand how consent works, support victims, and speak up when friends say/do rapey things. These actions help to discourage and prevent rape.

Women and men do not have a duty to stay indoors after a certain hour, or not dress "revealingly", or not get intoxicated.
These actions, in some cases, may help them to avoid rape. But the rapist is still out there, and still a problem.
 
2013-03-15 04:43:38 PM  

PsiChick: BarkingUnicorn: Mirror neuron theory is tentative, at best.  It does not suggest any connection to compassion; it's related to learning through imitation.

I'm not going to discuss blame and punishment after rape occurs.  I'm concerned about preventing rape.  Men and women should do all they can to prevent rape.  To say women shouldn't have to is farking stupid.

Then let's go back to what we can both agree on: For some segment of the population, normal enculturating forces do not work, and that segment's size can be changed by enculturating forces. Now, I just provided three examples of enculturating forces that, past age ten or so, are  supposed to be more powerful than things like parenting or faith leaders. So what examples can you provide of equal power that would counter it, to support your original claim?

Well, blame and punishment indicate responsibility, but okay, let's get rid of that. Is anyone  actually suggesting women have no responsibility to prevent rape?


1. I said that men are already taught not to rape, not that all of them learn or that such teachings are more "powerful" (prevail over) pop culture.

2. Yes; throughout this and every thread about rape, there are many who claim that women shouldn't have to do a damned thing to prevent it.  There's an example immediately below your reply.

A link was just submitted to this story not long ago that ludicrously shows where that stupidity can lead.  The author should be kept on a leash at all times; she is far too dumb to roam freely.  I do not want to believe this tale is true!
 
2013-03-15 04:46:01 PM  

Inchoate: BarkingUnicorn: Mirror neuron theory is tentative, at best. It does not suggest any connection to compassion; it's related to learning through imitation.

I'm not going to discuss blame and punishment after rape occurs. I'm concerned about preventing rape. Men and women should do all they can to prevent rape. To say women shouldn't have to is farking stupid.

There's a difference between preventing rape and merely avoiding it.
Women, like men, have a duty to understand how consent works, support victims, and speak up when friends say/do rapey things. These actions help to discourage and prevent rape.

Women and men do not have a duty to stay indoors after a certain hour, or not dress "revealingly", or not get intoxicated.
These actions, in some cases, may help them to avoid rape. But the rapist is still out there, and still a problem.


Go read this incredible tale that was submitted an hour or so ago. It's an absurd (and hopefully fictitious) example of where your argument leads.
 
2013-03-15 05:31:26 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Go read this incredible tale that was submitted an hour or so ago. It's an absurd (and hopefully fictitious) example of where your argument leads.


I read it.
The guy was an asshole and I wish the girl had been more assertive. What's your point?
 
2013-03-15 05:40:46 PM  

Inchoate: BarkingUnicorn: Go read this incredible tale that was submitted an hour or so ago. It's an absurd (and hopefully fictitious) example of where your argument leads.

I read it.
The guy was an asshole and I wish the girl had been more assertive. What's your point?


My point is the same one I've been making all along, and now you seem to agree with it.  Rape prevention is the responsibility of women as well as men.
 
2013-03-15 05:55:11 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: My point is the same one I've been making all along, and now you seem to agree with it. Rape prevention is the responsibility of women as well as men.


uh

A woman talked about having consensual kinky sex with a guy. She had done things like this before safely. The guy ignored her clearly expressed limitations to consent, several times, and abased her outside the context of kink play. By her own account, what happened was not "rape", but was farked up and very uncomfortable nonetheless.
Did she put herself into a dangerous situation? Yes. Is it her moral *fault* that she was abused?  Fark no. There is nothing in the story that makes the guy any less guilty or her in any way culpable. She was perhaps foolish, but a person's foolishness is never carte blanche to commit crimes against them. The just-world fallacy is a big problem.

I guarandamntee you that women know all of the oft-repeated "watch your drink, watch your friends, be careful in dark places, have your keys out" advice already. It is at best stupendously unhelpful and at worst deeply insulting when "well she shouldn't have been in that situation" is so commonly the first public response to accounts of rape. Combating that attitude is where men and women can help to prevent rape, by taking away rapists' confidence that their victims will not be taken seriously.

Rapists don't materialize out of thin air. They are not a force of nature. We shouldn't view their crimes as if they are.
 
2013-03-15 06:05:08 PM  

Inchoate: BarkingUnicorn: My point is the same one I've been making all along, and now you seem to agree with it. Rape prevention is the responsibility of women as well as men.

uh

A woman talked about having consensual kinky sex with a guy. She had done things like this before safely. The guy ignored her clearly expressed limitations to consent, several times, and abased her outside the context of kink play. By her own account, what happened was not "rape", but was farked up and very uncomfortable nonetheless.
Did she put herself into a dangerous situation? Yes. Is it her moral *fault* that she was abused?  Fark no. There is nothing in the story that makes the guy any less guilty or her in any way culpable. She was perhaps foolish, but a person's foolishness is never carte blanche to commit crimes against them. The just-world fallacy is a big problem.

I guarandamntee you that women know all of the oft-repeated "watch your drink, watch your friends, be careful in dark places, have your keys out" advice already. It is at best stupendously unhelpful and at worst deeply insulting when "well she shouldn't have been in that situation" is so commonly the first public response to accounts of rape. Combating that attitude is where men and women can help to prevent rape, by taking away rapists' confidence that their victims will not be taken seriously.

Rapists don't materialize out of thin air. They are not a force of nature. We shouldn't view their crimes as if they are.


Every time, the matter devolves into "who's at fault."  What's wrong with you people?  I am talking about preventing rape, not assigning blame.  This chick didn't do her part and the result was a very rape-like experience for her.  Even she figured that out in her conclusion.
 
2013-03-15 06:11:28 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Inchoate: BarkingUnicorn: My point is the same one I've been making all along, and now you seem to agree with it. Rape prevention is the responsibility of women as well as men.

uh

A woman talked about having consensual kinky sex with a guy. She had done things like this before safely. The guy ignored her clearly expressed limitations to consent, several times, and abased her outside the context of kink play. By her own account, what happened was not "rape", but was farked up and very uncomfortable nonetheless.
Did she put herself into a dangerous situation? Yes. Is it her moral *fault* that she was abused?  Fark no. There is nothing in the story that makes the guy any less guilty or her in any way culpable. She was perhaps foolish, but a person's foolishness is never carte blanche to commit crimes against them. The just-world fallacy is a big problem.

I guarandamntee you that women know all of the oft-repeated "watch your drink, watch your friends, be careful in dark places, have your keys out" advice already. It is at best stupendously unhelpful and at worst deeply insulting when "well she shouldn't have been in that situation" is so commonly the first public response to accounts of rape. Combating that attitude is where men and women can help to prevent rape, by taking away rapists' confidence that their victims will not be taken seriously.

Rapists don't materialize out of thin air. They are not a force of nature. We shouldn't view their crimes as if they are.

Every time, the matter devolves into "who's at fault."  What's wrong with you people?  I am talking about preventing rape, not assigning blame.  This chick didn't do her part and the result was a very rape-like experience for her.  Even she figured that out in her conclusion.


Of course, the whole story could be made up.  "Jesse" could be a slut-shaming guy who invented this tale and tacked on a conclusion that says, "Stop acting like an irresponsible whore."
 
2013-03-15 06:21:36 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Every time, the matter devolves into "who's at fault." What's wrong with you people? I am talking about preventing rape, not assigning blame. This chick didn't do her part and the result was a very rape-like experience for her. Even she figured that out in her conclusion.


Dude, you're saying the girl didn't do "her part". This implies that she has some moral or social responsibility for avoiding rape; according to you, she did not fulfill this "responsibility", and quasi-rape occurred. I reiterate: her foolishness may increase the likelihood of crime, but the social contract does not require her to meet an arbitrary standard of prudence before crimes against her are not OK. She has no duty in this case to avoid risk.

I'm not against giving people advice to increase their chances of avoiding crime (rape or otherwise), though you have to avoid seeming accusatory. And especially in the public aftermath of a crime, it does NOT help to focus on that advice rather than on collaring the perp and working to create an environment where rapists can't thrive.
 
2013-03-15 06:22:49 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Of course, the whole story could be made up. "Jesse" could be a slut-shaming guy who invented this tale and tacked on a conclusion that says, "Stop acting like an irresponsible whore."


It's a plausible story. Regardless, it's basically a thought experiment for the purposes of our discussion at this point.
 
2013-03-15 06:49:52 PM  

PsiChick: So I know too much about my topic for you to win your argument?


Yeah, that's it exactly.

said no one.
 
2013-03-15 06:56:52 PM  

Inchoate: Dude, you're saying the girl didn't do "her part". This implies that she has some moral or social responsibility for avoiding rape; according to you, she did not fulfill this "responsibility", and quasi-rape occurred.


That's not what I intended to convey.  She certainly has no responsibility to me or society at large to do her part to avoid unpleasantness for herself. I'll try again:

It's obvious that the consequences arose from the actions of both parties (including her inaction).  To claim that one party's actions don't contribute to the consequences is patent bullshiat.

One shouldn't tell women, "It doesn't matter what you do."  That's absurd, demeaning, and dangerous advice.
 
2013-03-15 07:17:10 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: It's obvious that the consequences arose from the actions of both parties (including her inaction). To claim that one party's actions don't contribute to the consequences is patent bullshiat.


The woman contributes to the opportunity for crime, not the actual crime. She's not causing the guy to disregard her consent.

Nobody is saying that common-sense crime-avoidance practices are not valid; they often are. What I and others are saying is that there's an unproductive overemphasis on them in cases of rape.

Gotta go for the evening.  Cheers.
 
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