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(Salon)   Counterpoint: Ooo, look at me, I have a degree in evolutionary biology   (salon.com) divider line 80
    More: Obvious, evolutionary biology, Pleistocene, animals and plants, Stone Age, refutation, huntergatherers, physiology, evolution  
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5695 clicks; posted to Geek » on 13 Mar 2013 at 1:09 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-13 11:25:39 AM
march13


a verymerry unbirthday to me
 
2013-03-13 11:33:44 AM
Not only is this not her own field, but, as she observes, it is "ground often marked by acrimony and rancor" among the specialists themselves.

Jabba's pit monster makes payments to an ex-wife?
 
2013-03-13 11:34:35 AM
Found my next book, I have.
 
2013-03-13 11:44:33 AM
Not to worry, after the complete economic, environmental, and technological collapse of modern society and its resulting massive depopulation we'll ALL be on the paleo diet.
 
2013-03-13 12:16:57 PM
For this reason, generalizations about the typical hunter-gatherer lifestyle are spurious; it doesn't exist. With respect to what people ate (especially how much meat), the only safe assumption was "whatever they could get,"

Well put. Humans managed to settle everywhere from frozen tundra to tropical rainforests, and they learned to survive on whatever they could put in their mouths that didn't kill them (before or after).
 
2013-03-13 01:07:37 PM
I've been listening to that horse shiat of yours for months, and you can take that crap and blow it out your ass.
 
2013-03-13 01:14:02 PM

Sybarite: For this reason, generalizations about the typical hunter-gatherer lifestyle are spurious; it doesn't exist. With respect to what people ate (especially how much meat), the only safe assumption was "whatever they could get,"

Well put. Humans managed to settle everywhere from frozen tundra to tropical rainforests, and they learned to survive on whatever they could put in their mouths that didn't kill them (before or after).


I think the truth may be somewhere in the middle.  As it's been explained to me, Native Americans have a particularly hard time--health-wise--with the "white man's" diet, which consists of things like alcohol, white bread and refined sugars.  Granted, even white people can end up with metabolic disorders from eating too much of this crap, but Native Americans seem to have a much greater propensity to these disorders.  They hadn't been exposed to these kinds of things up until 400 or so years ago.*

Now, to say that because cavemen ten THOUSAND years ago only ate meat, etc, and thus our bodies can only really process meat, etc, is a real stretch.  But I think in the span of 10 generations or so, that a group of people would have a sensitivity isn't so far-fetched.

/*this was explained to me by a doctor who deals predominantly with Native American patients--i.e., works with Indian Health Services
 
2013-03-13 01:16:07 PM

Sybarite: For this reason, generalizations about the typical hunter-gatherer lifestyle are spurious; it doesn't exist. With respect to what people ate (especially how much meat), the only safe assumption was "whatever they could get,"

Well put. Humans managed to settle everywhere from frozen tundra to tropical rainforests, and they learned to survive on whatever they could put in their mouths that didn't kill them (before or after).


Yup, we only have a limited knowledge of what different paleo groups actually ate, but what we do now is there is no "one answer" like the paleo diet shucksters try and sell you. We ate whatever the hell we could get our hands on, so it varied heavily by geographic circumstances.

And yes, we are still adapting to agriculture genetically, but we will always be adapting to our environment. The idea that modern diets are to blame for all of our problems is bullshiat. People stuffing their faces with way too much food period has more to do with most people's health problems.

Yeah you feel better when you go gluten free, but not because you have a gluten tolerance problem (most likely) but because you stopped overeating...
 
2013-03-13 01:17:04 PM
Also, I know quite a few people who have done this "paleo" diet and lost a shiat-ton of weight.  Is it solely because it mimics what our ancient ancestors ate?  Or are there other dietary factors in play?  For my part, I eat as close to paleo as I can, and I've noticed a dramatic decrease in systemic inflammation.  So, I donno.  It may just be *one* or two particular groups of foods that I've cut out (i.e., grains? sugar? dairy?) that has helped. It may be the whole lot.
 
2013-03-13 01:17:52 PM

xanadian: I think the truth may be somewhere in the middle.  As it's been explained to me, Native Americans have a particularly hard time--health-wise--with the "white man's" diet, which consists of things like alcohol, white bread and refined sugars.  Granted, even white people can end up with metabolic disorders from eating too much of this crap, but Native Americans seem to have a much greater propensity to these disorders.  They hadn't been exposed to these kinds of things up until 400 or so years ago.*

Now, to say that because cavemen ten THOUSAND years ago only ate meat, etc, and thus our bodies can only really process meat, etc, is a real stretch.  But I think in the span of 10 generations or so, that a group of people would have a sensitivity isn't so far-fetched.

/*this was explained to me by a doctor who deals predominantly with Native American patients--i.e., works with Indian Health Services


It's really more of an issue of over consumption than anything. Switching to a diet that is incredibly calorically dense can be problematic because it is so easy to over consume. There are definitely some genetic factors at play though.
 
2013-03-13 01:19:39 PM
i want to read this, new scientist and skeptical inquirer gave it good reviews.
 
2013-03-13 01:20:09 PM

xanadian: Also, I know quite a few people who have done this "paleo" diet and lost a shiat-ton of weight.  Is it solely because it mimics what our ancient ancestors ate?  Or are there other dietary factors in play?  For my part, I eat as close to paleo as I can, and I've noticed a dramatic decrease in systemic inflammation.  So, I donno.  It may just be *one* or two particular groups of foods that I've cut out (i.e., grains? sugar? dairy?) that has helped. It may be the whole lot.


It doesn't really mimic what our ancestors ate exclusively. You can go on pretty much any diet and lose weight if it fits within some sort of easy to follow (for you) lifestyle. People who go on paleo diets, etc tend to start paying far more attention to what they are eating and how much than they ever did before.

It isn't that there is anything inherently wrong with these diets, it is that trying to make a big evolutionary statement about it and overall health effects is bullshiat from a scientific standpoint.
 
2013-03-13 01:20:30 PM
In order to have a long, healthy life, you should emulate the diet of people that were lucky to reach 50.
 
2013-03-13 01:21:18 PM

gameshowhost: I've been listening to that horse shiat of yours for months, and you can take that crap and blow it out your ass.


And for good measure, sit on this *flips off camera*, Loren.
 
2013-03-13 01:23:50 PM

entropic_existence: but what we do now is there is no "one answer" like the paleo diet shucksters try and sell you. We ate whatever the hell we could get our hands on, so it varied heavily by geographic circumstances.


Absolutely.  For example (and my data may be off, but bear with me), Asians have eaten grains for ages (i.e. rice)...but they also eat a lot of fish and vegetables.  Their health when they eat like this is generally fantastic.  Native Americans have better health when they eschew refined grains and sugars.  And yet other people manage grains (breads, etc) perfectly fine without an impact on their cholesterol panel.  When I stopped the See-Food diet and went paleo, my total cholesterol went from 198 to 151.  But, that's just me and where my heritage is from.  Being predominantly Northern European, I imagine there were a lot fewer grains and processed carbs in our diet than what Southern European people had access to.

I suspect in another couple hundred years, none of this will matter (or matter a whole lot less) as everybody gains access to all kinds of food and we adapt to it.

And, yes, over-consumption is a big issue, too.

heh.  big issue.
 
2013-03-13 01:23:59 PM
 
2013-03-13 01:24:52 PM

entropic_existence: People who go on paleo diets, etc tend to start paying far more attention to what they are eating and how much than they ever did before.


I remember hearing this, too, and it made sense.  Seems to me that *any* diet, if it's going to work, is going to work based on more than just one factor; and what works for one person may not work for another.
 
2013-03-13 01:26:53 PM

bad_blood: likes subby's style:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/according-to-the-economist-nasa-is- an -industrial-s,11532/


Thanks! I couldn't for the life of me remember where I stole that from.
 
2013-03-13 01:30:02 PM
Well, I've eaten less sugar and I've gotten more active. This has helped me go from 265-275 (I was afraid ashamed to go on the scale after 260) and I'm down to 204 and still dropping.

If the core values are taken to heart they're applicable whether or not the Paleo fad is anthropologically correct. Stop eating calorie dense foods with no nutritional value, ie junk food. Also cut out some bread, some starch, some grains. You don't have to go crazy, if you don't want, like the people who pretend to have celiac. Just increase the intake of green leafy vegetables, they're filling and good for you, and you cannot eat more of them than you're supposed to, if you're on a 2000 calorie diet (eg 10 heads of cabbage = 2000 calories)

I'm not releasing any photos, but if you want a before pic you can go to thread 7000000 and see my "abs"
 
2013-03-13 01:31:38 PM

mysticcat: Found my next book, I have.


was thinking this ... sounds FUN ... which makes us TOTAL geeks
 
2013-03-13 01:32:58 PM

Mayhem of the Black Underclass: Well, I've eaten less sugar and I've gotten more active. This has helped me go from 265-275 (I was afraid ashamed to go on the scale after 260) and I'm down to 204 and still dropping.

If the core values are taken to heart they're applicable whether or not the Paleo fad is anthropologically correct. Stop eating calorie dense foods with no nutritional value, ie junk food. Also cut out some bread, some starch, some grains. You don't have to go crazy, if you don't want, like the people who pretend to have celiac. Just increase the intake of green leafy vegetables, they're filling and good for you, and you cannot eat more of them than you're supposed to, if you're on a 2000 calorie diet (eg 10 heads of cabbage = 2000 calories)

I'm not releasing any photos, but if you want a before pic you can go to thread 7000000 and see my "abs"


1) YAY you!!
2) when did you peak, as in how long have you been on this trend?

/curious because I cut out soda and have been slowly losing
 
2013-03-13 01:37:27 PM

gameshowhost: I've been listening to that horse shiat of yours for months, and you can take that crap and blow it out your ass.


www.miataturbo.net
 
2013-03-13 01:40:29 PM

bad_blood: likes subby's style:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/according-to-the-economist-nasa-is- an -industrial-s,11532/


lulz
 
2013-03-13 01:46:28 PM

xanadian: Also, I know quite a few people who have done this "paleo" diet and lost a shiat-ton of weight.  Is it solely because it mimics what our ancient ancestors ate?  Or are there other dietary factors in play?  For my part, I eat as close to paleo as I can, and I've noticed a dramatic decrease in systemic inflammation.  So, I donno.  It may just be *one* or two particular groups of foods that I've cut out (i.e., grains? sugar? dairy?) that has helped. It may be the whole lot.


i think its more because these are people who were drinking lots of soda, eating pre-made foods, lots of carbs and suger fortified stuff and then they cut all the sugar out. sugar (so far as i've seen) is ultimately the cause of a significant amount of people's weight issues
 
2013-03-13 01:49:06 PM
namatad:
1) YAY you!!
2) when did you peak, as in how long have you been on this trend?

/curious because I cut out soda and have been slowly losing


Well thanks, I don't know that I've peaked. For about a year (so it's taken me 2yrs? to get where I am) I said I wasn't going to change my diet, so I started running, and I was doing P90. I lost maybe 20 pounds in that year? But I wasn't seeing further change. So I change to a paleo-like diet. I avoid white foods, like bread, rice, and sugar. And I lost I guess 40lbs. I'd say January was when I stopped losing, so I switched to calorie count (1830 per day).
 
2013-03-13 01:49:21 PM
I didn't need a degree to dismiss another fad diet without further consideration, but it does help I suppose to back up that assertion.

I am simply amazed at the number of people I have encountered that both believe in evolution as it applies to the rest of the natural world, but somehow think humans are now exempt.

This ranges from Theistic Evolutionists that say evolution caused Homo Sapiens but God created man's soul; to atheists that think medical science has banished human evolution from consideration.

I wish I'd had the Morbo pic for the latter, and I just take the former's attitude as a step in the right direction, however small of one it may be.

//Science education is languishing badly in the US, and it's only going to get worse, isn't it?
 
2013-03-13 01:57:26 PM

entropic_existence: There are definitely some genetic factors at play though.


The only one I know of for sure is the gene for alcohol dehydrogenase, also low in east Asian populations, and allowing people to get drunk on very little alcohol. Yikes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_dehydrogenase
 
2013-03-13 02:01:03 PM
I went paleo years ago and dropped about 50 lbs.  Dr didn't approve of my eating plan so sent me for a battery of tests to see how badly my body was reacting.  He expected my cholesterol to be through the roof.  Everything the tested for was at the healthy side of the normal range.  He couldn't believe it given the amount of food I was eating.

Worked for me and after a few months eating starchy foods caused considerable distress in the form of cramps and gas.  So it became easier to avoid those foods.

Now I have toddlers so I eat like them and I've put on most of that weight again...  It's hard to go paleo when the wife doesn't follow it and the kids are typical toddlers.
 
2013-03-13 02:03:20 PM
I was reading this article on my iPhone, and after being on the site for 10 seconds, I got redirected to the App Store page for the game Candy Crush Saga. Seriously.
 
2013-03-13 02:07:10 PM

namatad: Mayhem of the Black Underclass: Well, I've eaten less sugar and I've gotten more active. This has helped me go from 265-275 (I was afraid ashamed to go on the scale after 260) and I'm down to 204 and still dropping.

If the core values are taken to heart they're applicable whether or not the Paleo fad is anthropologically correct. Stop eating calorie dense foods with no nutritional value, ie junk food. Also cut out some bread, some starch, some grains. You don't have to go crazy, if you don't want, like the people who pretend to have celiac. Just increase the intake of green leafy vegetables, they're filling and good for you, and you cannot eat more of them than you're supposed to, if you're on a 2000 calorie diet (eg 10 heads of cabbage = 2000 calories)

I'm not releasing any photos, but if you want a before pic you can go to thread 7000000 and see my "abs"

1) YAY you!!
2) when did you peak, as in how long have you been on this trend?

/curious because I cut out soda and have been slowly losing


Yay indeed!

About 18 months ago I was clinically obese with a BMI of 31. I had chest pains and shortness of breath, and ended up in hospital for a couple of days for tests. The docs told me I needed to lose weight and change my diet or the next time I might drop dead. So I went on the New Atkins Diet and dropped my BMI to 24 (top of the normal range). The NAD recommends about 75% of your calories from fat; about 20% from protein, and 5% from carbs during the weight loss portion. Once you're stabilized at your desired weight the carbs can go back up to about 10% or whatever you can stand without gaining weight. The high fat content depresses your appetite, so you eat less without feeling hungry, and lose weight easily.

The best part is that my blood chemistry improved markedly.

Before/After
fasting blood sugar 106/90
triglycerides 260/78
HDL 49/78
Tot. chol. 256/195

My metabolic inflammation was not measured prior to this month, but is now in the "very low" range, indicating a near-ideal overall blood chemistry.

What did I give up?
Sugary drinks - soda, fruit juice, Gatorade, etc.
Wheat - bread, pasta, pizza & beer
Rice
White and sweet potatoes

What do I miss? Pizza & beer...duh! ;^)
 
2013-03-13 02:08:17 PM
I could care less about evolution as it pertains to dieting. For me the paleo diet is a very simple way to remove processed foods from my diet. If I can kill it or pick it I can eat it. I don't see how eating meats, vegetables and fruits is detrimental. I have had to give up bread, ho-hos, ice cream,  Cheetos, Doritos, potato chips , twinkles, twizzlers, snickers bars, soda, cake ..... You get the idea. It also gives me a very simple yes/no switch that does not involve counting every calorie or reading every food label.
 
2013-03-13 02:13:45 PM
I went on the diet where you eat the same food as before, but less of it and I lost 40 pounds. i must have evolved
 
2013-03-13 02:19:47 PM

trackerbri: I went paleo years ago and dropped about 50 lbs.  Dr didn't approve of my eating plan so sent me for a battery of tests to see how badly my body was reacting.  He expected my cholesterol to be through the roof.  Everything the tested for was at the healthy side of the normal range.  He couldn't believe it given the amount of food I was eating.

Worked for me and after a few months eating starchy foods caused considerable distress in the form of cramps and gas.  So it became easier to avoid those foods.

Now I have toddlers so I eat like them and I've put on most of that weight again...  It's hard to go paleo when the wife doesn't follow it and the kids are typical toddlers.


I packed on 15 lbs about a year after my eldest started eating solid food.  I didn't realize it at first, but I was eating the untouched left overs off my kid's plates.  I stopped that, and I dropped that extra weight real fast.
 
2013-03-13 02:19:50 PM

Cynicism101: entropic_existence: There are definitely some genetic factors at play though.

The only one I know of for sure is the gene for alcohol dehydrogenase, also low in east Asian populations, and allowing people to get drunk on very little alcohol. Yikes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_dehydrogenase


There are lots of known genetics that relate to diet, but most have fairly small and complex effects. Lactase persistence arose twice independently in two different populations and there are tons of genes directly involved in metabolism, which will mean variation in how well/quickly you digest various things, how efficiently you convert it in to energy, how much fat you store, etc.

But most of it is a really complex mix of lots of genes and genetic variation that we can't just look and make any sort of predictions. But it is there nonetheless.
 
2013-03-13 02:20:02 PM
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-03-13 02:22:24 PM

Cynicism101: entropic_existence: There are definitely some genetic factors at play though.

The only one I know of for sure is the gene for alcohol dehydrogenase, also low in east Asian populations, and allowing people to get drunk on very little alcohol. Yikes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_dehydrogenase


While I'm not Asian-descended, for a dude my size (6'4/260), it should take more than 2 beers to get me drunk. How prevalent is it in Westerners?

// I don't generally drink, so maybe it's a problem of tolerance?
// once lost 15-20lbs in about 6 weeks by cutting out soda and walking more - but that was in college, so maybe it was just weird metabolic times
 
2013-03-13 02:31:40 PM

xanadian: I think the truth may be somewhere in the middle. As it's been explained to me, Native Americans have a particularly hard time--health-wise--with the "white man's" diet, which consists of things like alcohol, white bread and refined sugars. Granted, even white people can end up with metabolic disorders from eating too much of this crap, but Native Americans seem to have a much greater propensity to these disorders. They hadn't been exposed to these kinds of things up until 400 or so years ago


You're making the assumption that it's diet. Type-2 Diabetes rates are soaring in many native populations due to a change in lifestyle (from being semi-nomadic hunter-gathers to settling in one location and the accompanying decrease in physical activity) combined with genetic predisposition. In short, many native populations are predisposed to type-2 diabetes. Prior to European colonization their lifestyles involved such a high degree of physical activity that the disease was rarely, if ever, seen. Since adopting a more sedentary lifestyle Type-2 diabetes rates have soared. While diet no doubt plays a role, it appears in this case the main factor is exercise.

This article is fairly good for most non-science types, although they do mix up a few facts:
  http://www.ammsa.com/content/scientists-find-diabetes-link-oji-cree


If interested you can go to Dr. Robert Hegele's web page (he was the lead researcher on the study mentioned above) and check out his publication history. About 50% of his publications since the late 90's deal with this genetic predisposition. It's worth the read if you are interested in this topic (or population genetics in general): http://www.robarts.ca/hegele/pubarchive2000.htm
 
2013-03-13 02:38:47 PM

entropic_existence: Sybarite: For this reason, generalizations about the typical hunter-gatherer lifestyle are spurious; it doesn't exist. With respect to what people ate (especially how much meat), the only safe assumption was "whatever they could get,"

Well put. Humans managed to settle everywhere from frozen tundra to tropical rainforests, and they learned to survive on whatever they could put in their mouths that didn't kill them (before or after).

Yup, we only have a limited knowledge of what different paleo groups actually ate, but what we do now is there is no "one answer" like the paleo diet shucksters try and sell you. We ate whatever the hell we could get our hands on, so it varied heavily by geographic circumstances.

And yes, we are still adapting to agriculture genetically, but we will always be adapting to our environment. The idea that modern diets are to blame for all of our problems is bullshiat. People stuffing their faces with way too much food period has more to do with most people's health problems.

Yeah you feel better when you go gluten free, but not because you have a gluten tolerance problem (most likely) but because you stopped overeating...


I hear it's difficult to overeat gluten free stuff because it tastes like shiat.
 
2013-03-13 03:14:28 PM
Paleo diet. Whatever. You lose weight now because who can find dinosaur meat? It's not like they got it at Safeway. And if the fossil records are incomplete, it's because his Holy Noodliness desires it to be so.
 
2013-03-13 03:45:01 PM
25.media.tumblr.com

You've got a degree in Bologna!
 
2013-03-13 03:51:08 PM
Considering humans in the paleolithic era were lucky to make it to age 40, you may want to reconsider following their rules of living.
 
2013-03-13 04:08:36 PM

Irregardless: I could care less about evolution as it pertains to dieting. For me the paleo diet is a very simple way to remove processed foods from my diet. If I can kill it or pick it I can eat it. I don't see how eating meats, vegetables and fruits is detrimental.


Just stop calling it the "paleo" diet.

Carry on.
 
2013-03-13 04:25:19 PM

Tyrosine: Type-2 Diabetes rates are soaring in many native populations due to a change in lifestyle (from being semi-nomadic hunter-gathers to settling in one location and the accompanying decrease in physical activity) combined with genetic predisposition. In short, many native populations are predisposed to type-2 diabetes


It's not just native populations that are seeing soaring rates of Type-2 Diabetes or other diet/lifestyle health issues (Obesity). Going by CDC numbers the fattest state in 1990 had an obesity rate that was a fair bit lower than the thinnest state today. The change has been very rapid and increases across the states are seen even from year to year - that can't just be due to lifestyle changes in the last few years.

Hell - even in 1996 the no state had obesity rates above 19%. By 2010 no state had obesity rates under 20% and today the nation as a whole has an adult obesity rate of over 35%

http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html

(Time lapse obesity rate changes towards the bottom)
 
2013-03-13 04:26:49 PM
what people who have evolved to a modern diet might look like......  http://www.peopleofwalmart.com ?
 
jvl
2013-03-13 04:48:24 PM

xanadian: Also, I know quite a few people who have done this "paleo" diet and lost a shiat-ton of weight.  Is it solely because it mimics what our ancient ancestors ate?


No. It's because your friends have started eating fewer calories.  Don't worry, in a few months they'll figure out how to add the calories back in.

/ Just like every fad diet ever
 
2013-03-13 04:51:28 PM

Target Builder: Hell - even in 1996 the no state had obesity rates above 19%. By 2010 no state had obesity rates under 20% and today the nation as a whole has an adult obesity rate of over 35%


That is apparently not true...

theness.com

/not obese...bmi under 25
 
jvl
2013-03-13 04:52:22 PM

doremifaq: what people who have evolved to a modern diet might look like......  http://www.peopleofwalmart.com ?


Also, look in the mirror.  Homo Sapiens has undergone a sudden surge in evolution with the introduction of farming. Here's how it works: people who find grains grown on a farm tasty stick around a farm while their peers go hunting and get killed by wolves. Add 10K years, and we end up having tons of extra genes which produce enzymes which break down starch in the mouth so that starch tastes much sweeter to us than to our ancient ancestors.
 
2013-03-13 04:56:24 PM

Stone Meadow: Target Builder: Hell - even in 1996 the no state had obesity rates above 19%. By 2010 no state had obesity rates under 20% and today the nation as a whole has an adult obesity rate of over 35%

That is apparently not true...

[theness.com image 850x637]

/not obese...bmi under 25


What is the source of the data in the chart? It seems at odds with the CDC data I linked to.
 
2013-03-13 05:14:21 PM

Target Builder: It's not just native populations that are seeing soaring rates of Type-2 Diabetes or other diet/lifestyle health issues (Obesity). Going by CDC numbers the fattest state in 1990 had an obesity rate that was a fair bit lower than the thinnest state today. The change has been very rapid and increases across the states are seen even from year to year - that can't just be due to lifestyle changes in the last few years.

Hell - even in 1996 the no state had obesity rates above 19%. By 2010 no state had obesity rates under 20% and today the nation as a whole has an adult obesity rate of over 35%


Was that CDC data corrected for the fact that Overweight was changed from BMI 30+ to BMI 25+ right in the middle of the time period you're talking about?
 
2013-03-13 05:16:19 PM

Target Builder: Stone Meadow: Target Builder: Hell - even in 1996 the no state had obesity rates above 19%. By 2010 no state had obesity rates under 20% and today the nation as a whole has an adult obesity rate of over 35%

That is apparently not true...

[theness.com image 850x637]

/not obese...bmi under 25

What is the source of the data in the chart? It seems at odds with the CDC data I linked to.


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