If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(The New York Times)   Should the criminal justice system handle rape cases on college campuses or should they be left to the colleges' Greek Councils to handle?   (nytimes.com) divider line 178
    More: Obvious, criminal justice system, country legal systems, judicial system, colleges, rape victim  
•       •       •

5198 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Mar 2013 at 12:36 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



178 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread
 
2013-03-13 11:40:04 AM
Yeah, why shouldn't colleges, who have a vested interest in making rape cases disappear - both for public image/funding and for protecting certain fraternity members and interests - handle their own rape cases?

It's not like School Administrators and campus police have never been openly hostile, or threatened rape victims to shut their mouth, right?

Or, uh, threatened to expel them?

Or completely, utterly botched rape cases?
 
2013-03-13 12:05:18 PM
4.bp.blogspot.com

 But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!
 
2013-03-13 12:17:53 PM
Should the criminal justice system handle rape cases at Catholic Churches or should they be left to the upper ups at the Catholic Church to handle?
 
2013-03-13 12:20:03 PM
This pic works on so many different levels...
farm6.static.flickr.com
 
2013-03-13 12:24:02 PM
To even ask this question in the serious way should result to a swift kick in your groin (or breasts), subby.
 
2013-03-13 12:35:21 PM
Perhaps the universities could issue some sort of letter, a Greek letter, maybe, to women are bringing rape charges. The women could then wear those letters as a way of raising awareness of the profound issues surrounding rape that exist on campus. This could become an invaluable way for institutions of higher learning to help their students learn how to navigate complicated issues of adult sexuality, and also help young men know which women really mean "no" when they say it. There could even be a slogan: See a letter on her chest, listen to her request. It could all help reduce a lot of needless suffering.
 
2013-03-13 12:37:11 PM
Do you mean before or after the Tri-Lambs took over?
 
2013-03-13 12:38:52 PM
Quick pic of the college Greek council

encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
 
2013-03-13 12:39:25 PM

Pocket Ninja: Perhaps the universities could issue some sort of letter, a Greek letter, maybe, to women are bringing rape charges. The women could then wear those letters as a way of raising awareness of the profound issues surrounding rape that exist on campus. This could become an invaluable way for institutions of higher learning to help their students learn how to navigate complicated issues of adult sexuality, and also help young men know which women really mean "no" when they say it. There could even be a slogan: See a letter on her chest, listen to her request. It could all help reduce a lot of needless suffering.


Hmm. I see your point. These women would be leaders in the community, or alpha-females. So maybe we could simply go with Alpha. Since many of these women are staying "no", or "stop", red would be a natural color for them to wear.

So a large red Alpha on their chest would probably work best.
 
2013-03-13 12:39:49 PM
Are we talking gay fraternity sodomy?  That's consensual, right?
 
2013-03-13 12:40:35 PM
Why don't we let the Catholics handle it?  They seem to be doing a great job so far.
 
2013-03-13 12:41:04 PM

Pocket Ninja: Perhaps the universities could issue some sort of letter, a Greek letter, maybe, to women are bringing rape charges. The women could then wear those letters as a way of raising awareness of the profound issues surrounding rape that exist on campus. This could become an invaluable way for institutions of higher learning to help their students learn how to navigate complicated issues of adult sexuality, and also help young men know which women really mean "no" when they say it. There could even be a slogan: See a letter on her chest, listen to her request. It could all help reduce a lot of needless suffering.


This could be helped by making the letter the color of stop signs, in order to encourage people to pause and ask, and making it the first letter of the greek alphabet would keep the idea first and foremost in their mind.
 
2013-03-13 12:42:15 PM
Wait a minute here, are we talking about legitimate rape?
 
2013-03-13 12:42:30 PM

Bontesla: To even ask this question in the serious way should result to a swift kick in your groin (or breasts), subby.


What happened to equality? You know as well as I do that women have a similar corresponding weak spot.

I won't mention it, because I am a gentleman.
 
2013-03-13 12:42:48 PM
 "We'll work up a Number 6 on 'em. "
"'Number 6'"? I'm afraid I'm not familiar with that one. "
 "Well, that's where we go a-ridin' into town, a-whompin' and a-whumpin' every livin' thing that moves within an inch of its life. Except the women folks, of course. "
"You spare the women? "
 "Naw, we rape the shiat out of them at the Number Six Dance later on. "
 "Marvelous! "
 
2013-03-13 12:43:13 PM

Sliding Carp:  But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!


NERDS!
 
2013-03-13 12:43:41 PM

Shadow Blasko: Bontesla: To even ask this question in the serious way should result to a swift kick in your groin (or breasts), subby.

What happened to equality? You know as well as I do that women have a similar corresponding weak spot.

I won't mention it, because I am a gentleman.


I thought their weak spot was all over?
 
2013-03-13 12:43:47 PM
It all depends if anal was involved.
 
2013-03-13 12:44:52 PM
See that man over there, we arrested him for mopery.

i1.ytimg.com
 
2013-03-13 12:44:58 PM
Doesn't that pretty much become moot if a victim goes to a hospital and have a forensic examination?  Wouldn't that automatically make it law enforcement's responsibility?

/granted there should still be resources for victims who want the support network without the authorities involved
 
2013-03-13 12:45:36 PM

MadMonk: Wait a minute here, are we talking about legitimate rape?


It's at a college, so about 50/50.

Remarkable number of pregnant "rape victims" on my alma mater's campus. Almost all seemed to be attacked by a stranger on the street at night. You know, the statistical opposite of how rape normally occurs.
 
2013-03-13 12:48:34 PM
Put Neidermayer on it, he's a sneaky little shiat.
 
2013-03-13 12:49:04 PM
How about butt-chugging?  Has anyone considered that?
 
2013-03-13 12:49:26 PM
frat boys already have a lot of experience with rape; i say we leave it to the pros.

ftfa: "The two processes are not mutually exclusive: survivors can take action through both their college disciplinary systems and the criminal justice system and, indeed, colleges should inform and educate them about their right to do so. "

i feel especially sorry for the ones who didn't survive...

and i so don't want to sound 'blame the victim' here, 'cause rape is bad and rapists are responsible, but maybe "hey lets go to a frat party tonight! they have tons of booze, which we're mostly pretty inexperienced with, and they usually have some great drugs, and they're mostly good looking guys we would get to party with, and our late-adolescent sexual desires are aroused by the idea of partying with these good looking guys who will pay a lot of attention to us and give us free booze and drinks. and we sure don't want to have sex tonight, just a good time. par-tay!" isn't a wise choice when looking to avoid getting raped?
 
2013-03-13 12:50:10 PM
Because no college administrator would ever rule based on an agenda rather than the facts, right?

Catherine Comins, assistant dean of student life at Vassar, also sees some value in this loose use of 'rape.' She says angry victims of various forms of sexual intimidation cry rape to regain their sense of power. 'To use the word carefully would be to be careful for the sake of the violator, and the survivors don't care a hoot about him.' Comins argues that men who are unjustly accused can sometimes gain from the experience. 'They have a lot of pain, but it is not a pain that I would necessarily have spared them'.
 
2013-03-13 12:52:49 PM
No facepalm is big enough for this article.
 
2013-03-13 12:54:41 PM
I wonder what those who think it should be left to the colleges, think about Sh'ia law as an alternative to the laws by which the rest of us are theoritically governed.

How is it even an *option* to not be held accountable by the regular criminal system?
 
2013-03-13 12:54:52 PM

Jake Havechek: Are we talking gay fraternity sodomy?  That's consensual, right?


The butt-chugging one sure was funny
 
2013-03-13 12:55:15 PM

mike_d85: MadMonk: Wait a minute here, are we talking about legitimate rape?

It's at a college, so about 50/50.

Remarkable number of pregnant "rape victims" on my alma mater's campus. Almost all seemed to be attacked by a stranger on the street at night. You know, the statistical opposite of how rape normally occurs.


I prefer rape rape to legitimate rape. And we know all of those women are lying whores because you can't get pregnant from rape. I know all I learned about rape on the politics tab!

/fark needs a rape tab
//rape
 
2013-03-13 12:58:10 PM

the801: isn't a wise choice when looking to avoid getting raped


do you *seriously* never want to go out and just have fun?  Or maybe, I dunno, get to mutually choose/consent to who you have sex with?  Farking idiot.  For fark's sake, I go out and party quite often, I just happen to have a dick instead of a vagina.  Am I asking for it too, though?
 
2013-03-13 12:59:48 PM

the801: frat boys already have a lot of experience with rape; i say we leave it to the pros.

ftfa: "The two processes are not mutually exclusive: survivors can take action through both their college disciplinary systems and the criminal justice system and, indeed, colleges should inform and educate them about their right to do so. "

i feel especially sorry for the ones who didn't survive...

and i so don't want to sound 'blame the victim' here, 'cause rape is bad and rapists are responsible, but maybe "hey lets go to a frat party tonight! they have tons of booze, which we're mostly pretty inexperienced with, and they usually have some great drugs, and they're mostly good looking guys we would get to party with, and our late-adolescent sexual desires are aroused by the idea of partying with these good looking guys who will pay a lot of attention to us and give us free booze and drinks. and we sure don't want to have sex tonight, just a good time. par-tay!" isn't a wise choice when looking to avoid getting raped?


You are correct, sir. It's not really a good idea to go to these events if I want to completely avoid being raped, but you are forgetting sir, that: 1. They are inexperienced. 2. Nobody should be raping in the first place. 3. All of the above you have mentioned should not be happening on a campus, as most of that list is illegal.
 
2013-03-13 12:59:58 PM
 
2013-03-13 01:00:37 PM

IamAwake: I wonder what those who think it should be left to the colleges, think about Sh'ia law as an alternative to the laws by which the rest of us are theoritically governed.

How is it even an *option* to not be held accountable by the regular criminal system?


Because in most areas of the United States, public campuses are considered their own separate jurisdiction above and beyond the local police department. They are under no obligation, usually, to consult them for anything or ask for help.

They also are under the financial control of the colleges themselves, meaning that college administration has the ability to pressure them whether to turn a case over to the local DA for prosecution or not. What you'll find often times is that campus police will discourage rape victims from filing formal reports, or encourage them to bring the offenders to the student/facility disciplinary councils, who will hand down token punishments which don't change a damn thing.
 
2013-03-13 01:01:34 PM
Four women's answer:  "We want it both ways."
 
2013-03-13 01:01:51 PM
The proper venue for rape accusations is the legal system. Period. Next issue.
 
2013-03-13 01:02:07 PM

the801: frat boys already have a lot of experience with rape; i say we leave it to the pros.

ftfa: "The two processes are not mutually exclusive: survivors can take action through both their college disciplinary systems and the criminal justice system and, indeed, colleges should inform and educate them about their right to do so. "

i feel especially sorry for the ones who didn't survive...

and i so don't want to sound 'blame the victim' here, 'cause rape is bad and rapists are responsible, but maybe "hey lets go to a frat party tonight! they have tons of booze, which we're mostly pretty inexperienced with, and they usually have some great drugs, and they're mostly good looking guys we would get to party with, and our late-adolescent sexual desires are aroused by the idea of partying with these good looking guys who will pay a lot of attention to us and give us free booze and drinks. and we sure don't want to have sex tonight, just a good time. par-tay!" isn't a wise choice when looking to avoid getting raped?


Ahh yes. To the Burka store!
 
2013-03-13 01:04:32 PM
How stupid.

Up next: Pedobear is chief justice in child molestation cases.
 
2013-03-13 01:05:31 PM

the801: and i so don't want to sound 'blame the victim' here, 'cause rape is bad and rapists are responsible, but maybe "hey lets go to a frat party tonight! they have tons of booze, which we're mostly pretty inexperienced with, and they usually have some great drugs, and they're mostly good looking guys we would get to party with, and our late-adolescent sexual desires are aroused by the idea of partying with these good looking guys who will pay a lot of attention to us and give us free booze and drinks. and we sure don't want to have sex tonight, just a good time. par-tay!" isn't a wise choice when looking to avoid getting raped?


Great job sounding like "Not blaming the victim" when you said "If only those molded temptresses weren't there, the men wouldn't have gotten rapey!"
 
2013-03-13 01:08:11 PM
Yeah, I can see how this turns out:

ER doctor:  "You were gang-raped by six frat brothers.  Why didn't you report this to campus security?"

Rape Victim:  "Because then there would be more of them."
 
2013-03-13 01:08:52 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Four women's answer:  "We want it both ways."


Yep. The feminists are just like any other crackpot special interest group - "give us everything we want and f*ck everyone else." NOW, PETA, MADD, etc. just don't have an ounce of credibility, and once lost, it's almost impossible to regain.
 
2013-03-13 01:09:14 PM

mainstreet62: How stupid.

Up next: Pedobear is chief justice in child molestation cases.


But I want that Shota Dragon or whatever to fill that post.
 
2013-03-13 01:11:57 PM

ZMugg: Sometimes it works both ways.


I think I know why this went so badly for him.

"They talk a little more, exchange phone numbers, and she goes back to her dorm. [x] Three weeks later, the man receives word that he is being brought up on charges before the UDC. "

Insert at the [x]: The man did not call her at any time after that night.
 
2013-03-13 01:12:37 PM

WhoopAssWayne: Yep. The feminists are just like any other crackpot special interest group - "give us everything we want and f*ck everyone else." NOW, PETA, MADD, etc. just don't have an ounce of credibility, and once lost, it's almost impossible to regain.


lovetoedit.files.wordpress.com

I believe the term you're looking for is misandrist. Feminism =/= Misandry.
 
2013-03-13 01:14:46 PM

hardinparamedic: the801: and i so don't want to sound 'blame the victim' here, 'cause rape is bad and rapists are responsible, but maybe "hey lets go to a frat party tonight! they have tons of booze, which we're mostly pretty inexperienced with, and they usually have some great drugs, and they're mostly good looking guys we would get to party with, and our late-adolescent sexual desires are aroused by the idea of partying with these good looking guys who will pay a lot of attention to us and give us free booze and drinks. and we sure don't want to have sex tonight, just a good time. par-tay!" isn't a wise choice when looking to avoid getting raped?

Great job sounding like "Not blaming the victim" when you said "If only those molded temptresses weren't there, the men wouldn't have gotten rapey!"


You are correct, that no man should be rapey. Ever.
But, really, defending idiotic girls who would insist on wearing miniskirts on New Year's Eve to outdoor "house" parties, who wish to partake in illegal activities, sponsored by older men for free... ? They have the right to be not raped, just as I have the right to not be robbed of a laptop that I leave in my unlocked car.
Even if I have that right, you still have the right to call me an idiot for allowing that situation to occur in the first place.

You can be completely capable of having fun on a campus, without making yourself a displayed sex object, whilst drinking with friends, and remain safe, and be able to choose which dude you prefer to sleep with. It's called table top gaming, or even a night of Halo.
 
2013-03-13 01:14:53 PM
Acts of depravity so foul thatdecorum prevents me from listing them here.
img820.imageshack.us
 
2013-03-13 01:15:21 PM
Time for the weekly Fark anti-greek thread again? Wonderful. I'll start with the obligatory:

You all need to stop being so bitter about not getting a bid. Colleges have issues with rape culture, not only greek systems. The best way to fix these issues is education and bystander intervention on the part of brothers and sisters in greek organizations, and independents willing to take the training classes to actually know what bystander intervention is and how to properly help out without escalating the situation.

Or, you know, you can just keep accusing every guy in greek life of being a rapist. Whatever floats your desperate, bitter boat.
 
2013-03-13 01:16:30 PM

mike_d85: MadMonk: Wait a minute here, are we talking about legitimate rape?

It's at a college, so about 50/50.

Remarkable number of pregnant "rape victims" on my alma mater's campus. Almost all seemed to be attacked by a stranger on the street at night. You know, the statistical opposite of how rape normally occurs.


Let me guess, a Christian school?
 
2013-03-13 01:17:53 PM

IamAwake: the801: isn't a wise choice when looking to avoid getting raped

do you *seriously* never want to go out and just have fun?  Or maybe, I dunno, get to mutually choose/consent to who you have sex with?  Farking idiot.  For fark's sake, I go out and party quite often, I just happen to have a dick instead of a vagina.  Am I asking for it too, though?


oh yeah, i mean, i knew that might be taken offensively but it wasn't meant to be, like i said, rape is bad and it's the rapist's fault entirely. no one is 'asking to be raped' by going to a frat party and drinking too much. it's just maybe if you're looking to go out and have fun while minimizing the chance of rape then going to rape central and (in most rape cases at frats) getting all trashy on various substances isn't the best way to go about it. it's not that they're asking for it, they're just putting themselves in a known dangerous situation when it comes to rape avoidance. isn't it well known that there's a direct link between frat houses, especially their parties, and rape? such as that they're the rapiest places on college campuses that have a significant greek system? that's far from saying that it should happen or should be ignored or blamed on the raped person, it's just kinda basic harm reduction.

personally i think we should disband the entire greek system, and that all incidents of sexual misconduct at schools should be fully investigated and prosecuted by the established legal system.

and as i think tlars699 said, underage drinking and drug use is illegal but is always present at colleges, and generally openly accepted and ignored.
 
2013-03-13 01:17:54 PM

tlars699: hardinparamedic: the801: and i so don't want to sound 'blame the victim' here, 'cause rape is bad and rapists are responsible, but maybe "hey lets go to a frat party tonight! they have tons of booze, which we're mostly pretty inexperienced with, and they usually have some great drugs, and they're mostly good looking guys we would get to party with, and our late-adolescent sexual desires are aroused by the idea of partying with these good looking guys who will pay a lot of attention to us and give us free booze and drinks. and we sure don't want to have sex tonight, just a good time. par-tay!" isn't a wise choice when looking to avoid getting raped?

Great job sounding like "Not blaming the victim" when you said "If only those molded temptresses weren't there, the men wouldn't have gotten rapey!"

You are correct, that no man should be rapey. Ever.
But, really, defending idiotic girls who would insist on wearing miniskirts on New Year's Eve to outdoor "house" parties, who wish to partake in illegal activities, sponsored by older men for free... ? They have the right to be not raped, just as I have the right to not be robbed of a laptop that I leave in my unlocked car.
Even if I have that right, you still have the right to call me an idiot for allowing that situation to occur in the first place.

You can be completely capable of having fun on a campus, without making yourself a displayed sex object, whilst drinking with friends, and remain safe, and be able to choose which dude you prefer to sleep with. It's called table top gaming, or even a night of Halo.


As someone who engages in both the greek party scene, and the table top gaming scene, good luck finding a girl to take home at the latter that isn't batshiat crazy. At least at a social I can meet 30 new girls, figure out which ones are crazy, and try and get to know the (more) normal ones better.
 
2013-03-13 01:17:55 PM
Just put some windex....
static.thecia.com.au
 
2013-03-13 01:22:58 PM
Frequently subjecting yourself to the criminal justice system accomplishes nothing. There is stigma around being raped that some people don't want it to follow them around. It's very possible that the colleges provide more meaningful punishment than the real criminal justice system AND you may avoid being slut-shamed by a series of police officers, defense attorneys, prosecutors, judges, friends, ect. However, submitting to a college system should not foreclose the possibility of criminal prosecution.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/100000-assaults-1000-rapi st s-sentenced-shockingly-low-conviction-rates-revealed-8446058.html
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates
 
2013-03-13 01:24:49 PM
I'm soorry I lived at home and never partied when I was in college.

Looks like there was a whole lot of sexin' and boobies to see.

Damnit.
 
2013-03-13 01:24:51 PM

squrrelco3: See that man over there, we arrested him for mopery.

[i1.ytimg.com image 320x180]



I came here for a "Revenge of the Nerds" reference, and I leave satisfied.
 
2013-03-13 01:25:44 PM
ct.fra.bz
 
2013-03-13 01:27:49 PM

the801: IamAwake: the801: isn't a wise choice when looking to avoid getting raped

do you *seriously* never want to go out and just have fun?  Or maybe, I dunno, get to mutually choose/consent to who you have sex with?  Farking idiot.  For fark's sake, I go out and party quite often, I just happen to have a dick instead of a vagina.  Am I asking for it too, though?

oh yeah, i mean, i knew that might be taken offensively but it wasn't meant to be, like i said, rape is bad and it's the rapist's fault entirely. no one is 'asking to be raped' by going to a frat party and drinking too much. it's just maybe if you're looking to go out and have fun while minimizing the chance of rape then going to rape central and (in most rape cases at frats) getting all trashy on various substances isn't the best way to go about it. it's not that they're asking for it, they're just putting themselves in a known dangerous situation when it comes to rape avoidance. isn't it well known that there's a direct link between frat houses, especially their parties, and rape? such as that they're the rapiest places on college campuses that have a significant greek system? that's far from saying that it should happen or should be ignored or blamed on the raped person, it's just kinda basic harm reduction.

personally i think we should disband the entire greek system, and that all incidents of sexual misconduct at schools should be fully investigated and prosecuted by the established legal system.

and as i think tlars699 said, underage drinking and drug use is illegal but is always present at colleges, and generally openly accepted and ignored.


Haha. Good luck trying to disband us. We run the country. The amount our alumni donate to the school isn't worth losing to satisfy the vocal minority that want to see us scoured from the face of the American education system.
 
2013-03-13 01:28:35 PM

fennix: Frequently subjecting yourself to the criminal justice system accomplishes nothing. There is stigma around being raped that some people don't want it to follow them around. It's very possible that the colleges provide more meaningful punishment than the real criminal justice system AND you may avoid being slut-shamed by a series of police officers, defense attorneys, prosecutors, judges, friends, ect.


The problem is if they are doing that on the basis of his word vs hers, it is inherently unfair.


fennix: However, submitting to a college system should not foreclose the possibility of criminal prosecution.


This.
 
2013-03-13 01:31:21 PM
The Penn State judicial system seemed to work just fine. What's the problem?
 
2013-03-13 01:32:51 PM

doczoidberg: Looks like there was a whole lot of sexin' and boobies to see.


yep.  Heck, even I got laid like crazy.
 
2013-03-13 01:33:07 PM

wjllope: ZMugg: Sometimes it works both ways.

I think I know why this went so badly for him.

"They talk a little more, exchange phone numbers, and she goes back to her dorm. [x] Three weeks later, the man receives word that he is being brought up on charges before the UDC. "

Insert at the [x]: The man did not call her at any time after that night.


Ah, the 'Woman Scorned' defense. That settles it. How do you catch 'Teh Ghey'?

estrogen = distilled evil
 
2013-03-13 01:34:10 PM
tlars699:
 can be completely capable of having fun on a campus, without making yourself a displayed sex object, whilst drinking with friends, and remain safe, and be able to choose which dude you prefer to sleep with. It's called table top gaming, or even a night of Halo.

or going clubbing with some friends (or alone even), or going to some house party, or a campus bar or music event, or hanging out with friends in whatever way you enjoy which may or may not involve dungeons or dragons, or going to a party / event hosted by an on-campus organization, or a dorm party, or whatever else. if freshmen entering college don't know that frat boys often (not always, i'm sure) have a sense of entitlement when it comes to rape, then that should be mentioned at freshman orientation. also maybe setting some personal rules such as stay at the party, don't go up to some guy's room with him until you know him well. have some friends there who know your intentions watching out for you...

"In 2008, fraternity members photographed themselves in front of the Yale Women's Center with a poster reading, "We Love Yale Sluts." In 2009, a widely e-mailed "preseason scouting report" rated the desirability of about 50 newly arrived freshman women by the number of drinks a man would need in order to have sex with them. And in October, fraternity pledges paraded through a residential quadrangle chanting: "No means yes!" "
 -   http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/08/nyregion/08yale.html?pagewanted=all

but back to the original topic, schools need to crack down on institutionalized rape such as what often happens in frats, and offenders should be tried and punished by the legal system and expelled from school.
 
2013-03-13 01:38:35 PM

the801: but back to the original topic, schools need to crack down on institutionalized rape such as what often happens in frats, and offenders should be tried and punished by the legal system and expelled from school.


Do you mean that HazeHer.com is real?

giggity
 
2013-03-13 01:39:34 PM
tlars699:
You can be completely capable of having fun on a campus, without making yourself a displayed sex object, whilst drinking with friends, and remain safe, and be able to choose which dude you prefer to sleep with. It's called table top gaming, or even a night of Halo.

oh, and ladies and men can dress and preen any way they want, and should never have to take 'rape' into consideration. displaying one's self as a sex object is fun, and can be an invitation for intrest from sexually interested peoples, but certainly in no way is an invitation for any physical molestation or rape or such.

801 out.
 
2013-03-13 01:41:10 PM
It sounds like buying college textbooks is just the beginning of a four year rape fest.
 
2013-03-13 01:46:11 PM
the801:

and i so don't want to sound 'blame the victim' here, 'cause rape is bad and rapists are responsible, but maybe "hey lets go to a frat party tonight! they have tons of booze, which we're mostly pretty inexperienced with, and they usually have some great drugs, and they're mostly good looking guys we would get to party with, and our late-adolescent sexual desires are aroused by the idea of partying with these good looking guys who will pay a lot of attention to us and give us free booze and drinks. and we sure don't want to have sex tonight, just a good time. par-tay!" isn't a wise choice when looking to avoid getting raped?


I shouldn't have to change the way I live my life because men are unable to control their animal instincts to jump on and have sex with everything that arouses them.  That is the MAN'S problem, not mine.  I could walk down the street naked and it still wouldn't give a man the right to touch or have sex with me.  Telling women to cover up and dress demurely and not go to parties and not drink will probably stop a tiny percentage of rapes but I've got a super cool idea: instead of "educating" women on how to change their lives to avoid getting raped, how about teaching men to stop treating women like their property to do with what they wish?  Or is that too much to ask?
 
2013-03-13 01:46:47 PM

fennix: Frequently subjecting yourself to the criminal justice system accomplishes nothing. There is stigma around being raped that some people don't want it to follow them around. It's very possible that the colleges provide more meaningful punishment than the real criminal justice system AND you may avoid being slut-shamed by a series of police officers, defense attorneys, prosecutors, judges, friends, ect. However, submitting to a college system should not foreclose the possibility of criminal prosecution.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/100000-assaults-1000-rapi st s-sentenced-shockingly-low-conviction-rates-revealed-8446058.html
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates


Right.  So, what's in it for the accused?
 
2013-03-13 01:48:55 PM

tlars699:  They have the right to be not raped, just as I have the right to not be robbed of a laptop that I leave in my unlocked car.


Property is property amirite?
 
2013-03-13 01:49:10 PM

the801: "In 2008, fraternity members photographed themselves in front of the Yale Women's Center with a poster reading, "We Love Yale Sluts." In 2009, a widely e-mailed "preseason scouting report" rated the desirability of about 50 newly arrived freshman women by the number of drinks a man would need in order to have sex with them. And in October, fraternity pledges paraded through a residential quadrangle chanting: "No means yes!" "
- http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/08/nyregion/08yale.html?pagewanted=all


You left out, "Yes means anal."

I would have expelled every one of those assholes with extreme prejudice.
 
2013-03-13 01:54:24 PM

teenytinycornteeth: the801:

and i so don't want to sound 'blame the victim' here, 'cause rape is bad and rapists are responsible, but maybe "hey lets go to a frat party tonight! they have tons of booze, which we're mostly pretty inexperienced with, and they usually have some great drugs, and they're mostly good looking guys we would get to party with, and our late-adolescent sexual desires are aroused by the idea of partying with these good looking guys who will pay a lot of attention to us and give us free booze and drinks. and we sure don't want to have sex tonight, just a good time. par-tay!" isn't a wise choice when looking to avoid getting raped?


I shouldn't have to change the way I live my life because men are unable to control their animal instincts to jump on and have sex with everything that arouses them.  That is the MAN'S problem, not mine.  I could walk down the street naked and it still wouldn't give a man the right to touch or have sex with me.  Telling women to cover up and dress demurely and not go to parties and not drink will probably stop a tiny percentage of rapes but I've got a super cool idea: instead of "educating" women on how to change their lives to avoid getting raped, how about teaching men to stop treating women like their property to do with what they wish?  Or is that too much to ask?


If you want to leave your safety entirely in someone else's hands, go ahead.
 
2013-03-13 01:54:37 PM
No.  Privatization of law enforcement and justice proceedings goes against everything that both are supposed to be about.

No.  Women who have actually been raped should have their day in criminal court and, hopefully, see their attacker's nuts nailed to a tree.

No.  Under no circumstances should anybody with a vested interest it quashing criminal cases to assure their cash flow hold any sort of jurisprudence over the criminal prosecution of such cases.

No means no.
 
2013-03-13 01:54:48 PM

browser_snake: The proper venue for rape accusations is the legal system. Period. Next issue.


See that?  That is a thread winner.  Everything else is moot.  This is why:

Endive Wombat: Should the criminal justice system handle rape cases at Catholic Churches or should they be left to the upper ups at the Catholic Church to handle?


We have a criminal justice system to guard against every individual group's handling of a crime.  It protects victims and the accused to have an ideally neutral, unbiased 3rd party to gather evidence, make arguments, and judge.  Of course, no system is pure, or untainted by prejudice and societal influence.  The weakness also becomes its strength, as this system can adapt.  It's hard to change institutional practices when the institution is protected by tradition (Sh'ia), leadership being non-local (Catholic Church), or moneyed interests (all institutions).
 
2013-03-13 01:55:31 PM

hardinparamedic: Yeah, why shouldn't colleges, who have a vested interest in making rape cases disappear - both for public image/funding and for protecting certain fraternity members and interests - handle their own rape cases?

It's not like School Administrators and campus police have never been openly hostile, or threatened rape victims to shut their mouth, right?

Or, uh, threatened to expel them?

Or completely, utterly botched rape cases?


Done in one.  Also, appropriate use of the obvious tag is obvious.  A nice idea in theory, but it's way too open to abuse.
 
2013-03-13 01:56:43 PM

teenytinycornteeth: I shouldn't have to change the way I live my life because men are unable to control their animal instincts to jump on and have sex with everything that arouses them.  That is the MAN'S problem, not mine.  I could walk down the street naked and it still wouldn't give a man the right to touch or have sex with me.  Telling women to cover up and dress demurely and not go to parties and not drink will probably stop a tiny percentage of rapes but I've got a super cool idea: instead of "educating" women on how to change their lives to avoid getting raped, how about teaching men to stop treating women like their property to do with what they wish?  Or is that too much to ask?


Nobody's saying that anyone has a right to molest you because of the way you dress.
However, it's staggeringly naive to think that you don't need to take reasonable precautions to protect yourself.

There's a lot of things we "shouldn't have to do".
- I shouldn't have to lock my car or my house, but I still do
- I shouldn't have to carry a gun in order to protect myself, but I still do
- I shouldn't have to take reasonable precautions to avoid random assaults, muggings, etc, but I still do
 
2013-03-13 01:57:04 PM
Whatever the answer is should also apply to a certain orthodox sect of a religion that tends to do things in house rather than bring in outsiders.
 
2013-03-13 01:57:10 PM
I suspect the real reason academic institutions don't want to allow police jurisdiction over sexual assault cases is that they would then get reported and it would make them look bad. College reputation outweighs victim suffering by 1000 to 1 in the eyes of the administration.

My grandma worked as a "dorm mother" in a Catholic college that was kind of a resort deal (beautiful place, academics not so hot).  She got burned out from so many girls coming to her year after year, who experienced date-rape and had abortions. Also apparently there was a lot of cocaine use.

\ahh the 80's
 
2013-03-13 01:57:43 PM
How the Left would like rape claims to be prosecuted:

Accused richer or more famous than Accuser? Innocent. (save roman polanski!)

Otherwise, Guilty!
 
2013-03-13 02:01:03 PM

hitlersbrain: How the Left


*sigh*  No, that's not really it.
 
2013-03-13 02:02:06 PM
I watched something like this play out at UMBC in the mid '90s.  No fraternities, just a systemic pressuring of a victim to handle things in house.  It was, and I assume still is, disgusting.  Any young women reading this, remember: Don't go to a faculty member or administrator.  Lawyer up and take it to real court.
 
2013-03-13 02:02:30 PM

BarkingUnicorn: teenytinycornteeth: the801:


If you want to leave your safety entirely in someone else's hands, go ahead.


Because asking men to change their views of what they can do to women is just too big of a task, eh?
 
2013-03-13 02:04:48 PM

the801: tlars699:
 can be completely capable of having fun on a campus, without making yourself a displayed sex object, whilst drinking with friends, and remain safe, and be able to choose which dude you prefer to sleep with. It's called table top gaming, or even a night of Halo.

or going clubbing with some friends (or alone even), or going to some house party, or a campus bar or music event, or hanging out with friends in whatever way you enjoy which may or may not involve dungeons or dragons, or going to a party / event hosted by an on-campus organization, or a dorm party, or whatever else. if freshmen entering college don't know that frat boys often (not always, i'm sure) have a sense of entitlement when it comes to rape, then that should be mentioned at freshman orientation. also maybe setting some personal rules such as stay at the party, don't go up to some guy's room with him until you know him well. have some friends there who know your intentions watching out for you...

"In 2008, fraternity members photographed themselves in front of the Yale Women's Center with a poster reading, "We Love Yale Sluts." In 2009, a widely e-mailed "preseason scouting report" rated the desirability of about 50 newly arrived freshman women by the number of drinks a man would need in order to have sex with them. And in October, fraternity pledges paraded through a residential quadrangle chanting: "No means yes!" "
 -   http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/08/nyregion/08yale.html?pagewanted=all

but back to the original topic, schools need to crack down on institutionalized rape such as what often happens in frats, and offenders should be tried and punished by the legal system and expelled from school.


So toss the fraternity off campus.  Watch how fast they clean up their bullshiat.
 
2013-03-13 02:07:19 PM
Criminal for sure.  Obama did his "Dear Colleague" letter to the schools recently where he wants them to change the way they process these cases.  Basically, changing the burden of proof so that after an accusation is made the man is automatically guilty and has to PROVE himself innocent.  That is farking absurd given that half of all rape accusations are false.
 
2013-03-13 02:07:44 PM

hardinparamedic: Yeah, why shouldn't colleges, who have a vested interest in making rape cases disappear - both for public image/funding and for protecting certain fraternity members and interests - handle their own rape cases?

It's not like School Administrators and campus police have never been openly hostile, or threatened rape victims to shut their mouth, right?

Or, uh, threatened to expel them?

Or completely, utterly botched rape cases?


and ironically, it can also be extremely unfair to those ACCUSED of rape as well.  Had a buddy year ago that dated a girl who unbeknownst to him was MPD.  One night they were playing perfectly consensual kinky games in her dorm room when she "shifted" to an alter that had no knowledge of what was going on or who he was.  After bloody murder was screamed and the cops were called. Buddy found himself in handcuffs and facing some very deep shiat, until she apparently transitionted back to the girl who'd said yes to him in the first place.  That got him released by the cops but not the campus administration.  the "J-board" prosecutor felt that his lack of knowledge about her condition was irrelevant because he should have known that no normal woman would consent to that kind of activity so she MUST have been crazy.  Ergo in her eyes he was guilty of rape anyway.   She got a tame Student Council hearing board to go along with that and he got expelled about 5 credit short of graduation-and he's so worried bout having a sex assualt on his student record that he's never tried to apply anywhere else to finish his degree,
 
2013-03-13 02:10:25 PM
Remember when your mom said "find a nice, decent girl.  Somebody you really like, and settle down"?  See, if you think past the end of your dick, it IS good advice.   :  )
 
2013-03-13 02:10:52 PM

teenytinycornteeth: I shouldn't have to change the way I live my life because men are unable to control their animal instincts to jump on and have sex with everything that arouses them.  That is the MAN'S problem, not mine.  I could walk down the street naked and it still wouldn't give a man the right to touch or have sex with me.  Telling women to cover up and dress demurely and not go to parties and not drink will probably stop a tiny percentage of rapes but I've got a super cool idea: instead of "educating" women on how to change their lives to avoid getting raped, how about teaching men to stop treating women like their property to do with what they wish?  Or is that too much to ask?


Male lust has been the DRIVING force in evolution since there have been 2 sexes. Men who find sex uninteresting don't have many kids. A culture full of men who 'behave themselves' won't have many kids either since women certainly don't put much effort towards having sex other than sitting around waiting for a good enough guy to come to them.

So yeah, it IS your problem. If you are attractive, men will lust for you and you will have to take some precautions. If you don't like it, don't be attractive. Personally, I'm tired of the friggin whining. It's like listening to spoiled rich, famous celebrities complaining about too much attention.
 
2013-03-13 02:10:58 PM
The only people on college campuses that have real world experience are the Archaologists, Anthropologists and Janitors.

I'd trust the decisions of NOBODY else on a campus.
 
2013-03-13 02:12:11 PM

teenytinycornteeth: BarkingUnicorn: teenytinycornteeth: the801:


If you want to leave your safety entirely in someone else's hands, go ahead.

Because asking men to change their views of what they can do to women is just too big of a task, eh?


No.  It's just not enough.  You're the one who said, "Telling women to cover up and dress demurely and not go to parties and not drink will probably stop a tiny percentage of rapes..."  I'm the one suggesting that you not leave your safety "entirely" in someone else's hands.
 
2013-03-13 02:13:59 PM

teenytinycornteeth: BarkingUnicorn: teenytinycornteeth: the801:


If you want to leave your safety entirely in someone else's hands, go ahead.

Because asking men to change their views of what they can do to women is just too big of a task, eh?


Oh, you've caught us! That's right, every single man out there has been taught that it's OK to rape women. All we need is some good, stern lecturing to change our indoctrination. In no way are crimes ever committed by sociopathic individuals who effectively cannot be taught, no matter what you think.

Your implications that "men" are inherently rapists, is, quite frankly, quite offensive.
 
2013-03-13 02:15:15 PM

bunner: hitlersbrain: How the Left

*sigh*  No, that's not really it.


Really, really.
 
2013-03-13 02:16:43 PM

hitlersbrain: teenytinycornteeth: I shouldn't have to change the way I live my life because men are unable to control their animal instincts to jump on and have sex with everything that arouses them.  That is the MAN'S problem, not mine.  I could walk down the street naked and it still wouldn't give a man the right to touch or have sex with me.  Telling women to cover up and dress demurely and not go to parties and not drink will probably stop a tiny percentage of rapes but I've got a super cool idea: instead of "educating" women on how to change their lives to avoid getting raped, how about teaching men to stop treating women like their property to do with what they wish?  Or is that too much to ask?

Male lust has been the DRIVING force in evolution since there have been 2 sexes. Men who find sex uninteresting don't have many kids. A culture full of men who 'behave themselves' won't have many kids either since women certainly don't put much effort towards having sex other than sitting around waiting for a good enough guy to come to them.

So yeah, it IS your problem. If you are attractive, men will lust for you and you will have to take some precautions. If you don't like it, don't be attractive. Personally, I'm tired of the friggin whining. It's like listening to spoiled rich, famous celebrities complaining about too much attention.


You need to be raped a few times.  You will change your point of view after it happens.
 
2013-03-13 02:16:47 PM

lordaction: Criminal for sure.  Obama did his "Dear Colleague" letter to the schools recently where he wants them to change the way they process these cases.  Basically, changing the burden of proof so that after an accusation is made the man is automatically guilty and has to PROVE himself innocent.  That is farking absurd given that half of all rape accusations are false.


images.wikia.com

lordactionis a homophobic, far right wing, possibly MRA FARK poster who - among other gems - thinks that Gays join the scouts to molest children in secret.

Anything this person says should be laughed at.
 
2013-03-13 02:18:35 PM

hitlersbrain: teenytinycornteeth: I shouldn't have to change the way I live my life because men are unable to control their animal instincts to jump on and have sex with everything that arouses them.  That is the MAN'S problem, not mine.  I could walk down the street naked and it still wouldn't give a man the right to touch or have sex with me.  Telling women to cover up and dress demurely and not go to parties and not drink will probably stop a tiny percentage of rapes but I've got a super cool idea: instead of "educating" women on how to change their lives to avoid getting raped, how about teaching men to stop treating women like their property to do with what they wish?  Or is that too much to ask?

Male lust has been the DRIVING force in evolution since there have been 2 sexes. Men who find sex uninteresting don't have many kids. A culture full of men who 'behave themselves' won't have many kids either since women certainly don't put much effort towards having sex other than sitting around waiting for a good enough guy to come to them.

So yeah, it IS your problem. If you are attractive, men will lust for you and you will have to take some precautions. If you don't like it, don't be attractive. Personally, I'm tired of the friggin whining. It's like listening to spoiled rich, famous celebrities complaining about too much attention.


And by the way, in the armed forces, more men are raped (in sheer numbers) than women.  It's not about sex, it's about violence and power.
 
2013-03-13 02:19:07 PM
Wow..............
Like when is the law not enforced due to some douche claiming 'this is university property, so that means we are outside of the law being able to enforce the law that prevents people being gang raped and sodomized repeatedly".
Same goes for grade school where abuse is a crime as well.
Same goes for your workplace.
fark it, same goes for the bus station or airport.................

/Fun fact: If you invite someone onto your property, you can chop off their head because they willing entered and you can never be charged with a crime, as it is your private property. Said no legal system anywhere(Florida is a farked up exception of corruption to the rule of law).
 
2013-03-13 02:19:42 PM

hardinparamedic: the801: and i so don't want to sound 'blame the victim' here, 'cause rape is bad and rapists are responsible, but maybe "hey lets go to a frat party tonight! they have tons of booze, which we're mostly pretty inexperienced with, and they usually have some great drugs, and they're mostly good looking guys we would get to party with, and our late-adolescent sexual desires are aroused by the idea of partying with these good looking guys who will pay a lot of attention to us and give us free booze and drinks. and we sure don't want to have sex tonight, just a good time. par-tay!" isn't a wise choice when looking to avoid getting raped?

Great job sounding like "Not blaming the victim" when you said "If only those molded temptresses weren't there, the men wouldn't have gotten rapey!"


For certain definitions of rape.

If an 19 year old female goes to a party and has an undefined number of beers and then accepts the offer for sex from one of the male attending the party (who is also drunk) she doesn't get to claim rape as far as I'm concerned. Assuming no person slipped her something without her knowledge ofcourse. Any defense against this kind if "rape" would be: "But I was drunk to therefore she raped me." But since you'd get laughed out of the courtroom all the way to jail we'll never see that happen.

/seriously, why are men responsible while the woman is seen as the victim?
 
2013-03-13 02:22:45 PM

DerAppie: /seriously, why are men responsible while the woman is seen as the victim?


Might have to do with the fact that rape is a crime of power and control being generally accepted by the psychiatric community at large as the motivation, and not because the guy hasn't had his balls drained in the last few weeks.

DerAppie: If an 19 year old female goes to a party and has an undefined number of beers and then accepts the offer for sex from one of the male attending the party (who is also drunk) she doesn't get to claim rape as far as I'm concerned. Assuming no person slipped her something without her knowledge ofcourse. Any defense against this kind if "rape" would be: "But I was drunk to therefore she raped me." But since you'd get laughed out of the courtroom all the way to jail we'll never see that happen.


Maybe, and this is JUST a maybe here, knowing that the legal system is stacked against you to begin with, you shouldn't go fark random drunk girls who your knowledge of them is that they've giggled for twenty minutes over their beer.

I know. Keeping it in your pants is such a WEIRD concept.
 
2013-03-13 02:23:26 PM

Marcus Aurelius: It's not about sex, it's about violence and power.


So stop acting harmless and powerless.
 
2013-03-13 02:24:13 PM

teenytinycornteeth: BarkingUnicorn: teenytinycornteeth: the801:


If you want to leave your safety entirely in someone else's hands, go ahead.

Because asking men to change their views of what they can do to women is just too big of a task, eh?



Banks shouldn't have vaults. We should just ask thieves to stop stealing.

Weapons of all types should be allowed everywhere. We should just ask murderers to stop murdering.

Websites shouldn't have passwords. We should just ask hackers to stop stealing personal information.

Unfortunately, we don't live in a crime-free utopia, so we need to take basic precautions against crime. I'm not saying that rape should continue to be praised as it is in some social circles today, but protecting yourself and discouraging rapists are not mutually exclusive.
 
2013-03-13 02:25:33 PM

hardinparamedic: DerAppie: /seriously, why are men responsible while the woman is seen as the victim?

Might have to do with the fact that rape is a crime of power and control being generally accepted by the psychiatric community at large as the motivation, and not because the guy hasn't had his balls drained in the last few weeks.

DerAppie: If an 19 year old female goes to a party and has an undefined number of beers and then accepts the offer for sex from one of the male attending the party (who is also drunk) she doesn't get to claim rape as far as I'm concerned. Assuming no person slipped her something without her knowledge ofcourse. Any defense against this kind if "rape" would be: "But I was drunk to therefore she raped me." But since you'd get laughed out of the courtroom all the way to jail we'll never see that happen.

Maybe, and this is JUST a maybe here, knowing that the legal system is stacked against you to begin with, you shouldn't go fark random drunk girls who your knowledge of them is that they've giggled for twenty minutes over their beer.

I know. Keeping it in your pants is such a WEIRD concept.


So I've been told by several women.
 
2013-03-13 02:30:12 PM

hardinparamedic: lordaction: Criminal for sure.  Obama did his "Dear Colleague" letter to the schools recently where he wants them to change the way they process these cases.  Basically, changing the burden of proof so that after an accusation is made the man is automatically guilty and has to PROVE himself innocent.  That is farking absurd given that half of all rape accusations are false.

[images.wikia.com image 314x264]

lordactionis a homophobic, far right wing, possibly MRA FARK poster who - among other gems - thinks that Gays join the scouts to molest children in secret.

Anything this person says should be laughed at.


When you don't have facts I guess you have to attack the individual.
 
2013-03-13 02:32:40 PM

lordaction: When you don't have facts I guess you have to attack the individual.


When the individual is an absurd liar with a history of posting things that would make even the most simple of person laugh in their face, and their profile, up until last week was filled with bizarre religious scripture, yes.
 
2013-03-13 02:37:18 PM

the801: it's not that they're asking for it, they're just putting themselves in a known dangerous situation when it comes to rape avoidance.


Did you realize that every time you get in a car you are knowingly exposing yourself to risk of death? Actually, getting in the shower is dangerous too. But - hey - you're right. Women should just stop going to parties because you never know when someone is going to drug the punch.

And, while were at it. Women should never do anything ever because rape happens anywhere. You can get raped going grocery shopping or taking the bus - so women I guess should just die if they don't want to be raped because there is no such thing as a rape free zone.
 
2013-03-13 02:37:33 PM
Women who say, "It's men's  problem... I shouldn't have to change..." remind me of the granny who totaled my car years ago.

I was driving home from work at 5 p.m. when her oncoming car turned suddenly right across my path; no turn signal, no yielding, nothing behind me for a mile.  She just wanted to go where and when she wanted to go.  I stood on the brakes but there was no avoiding the crash.  Her front driver's corner took out my radiator.  First words out of her mouth as she got out of her car were,

"Didn't you see me turning?"

/It was her third DWI in 18 months.  She got six months in jail.
 
2013-03-13 02:37:38 PM

hardinparamedic: DerAppie: /seriously, why are men responsible while the woman is seen as the victim?

Might have to do with the fact that rape is a crime of power and control being generally accepted by the psychiatric community at large as the motivation, and not because the guy hasn't had his balls drained in the last few weeks.

DerAppie: If an 19 year old female goes to a party and has an undefined number of beers and then accepts the offer for sex from one of the male attending the party (who is also drunk) she doesn't get to claim rape as far as I'm concerned. Assuming no person slipped her something without her knowledge ofcourse. Any defense against this kind if "rape" would be: "But I was drunk to therefore she raped me." But since you'd get laughed out of the courtroom all the way to jail we'll never see that happen.

Maybe, and this is JUST a maybe here, knowing that the legal system is stacked against you to begin with, you shouldn't go fark random drunk girls who your knowledge of them is that they've giggled for twenty minutes over their beer.

I know. Keeping it in your pants is such a WEIRD concept.


Yes, because drunk people are so well known for their well thought out actions. Being drunk seriously impairs your ability to judge the level of impairment in others. So once again, if a drunk man and a drunk woman have sex, why should the woman be the victim of rape and the man a rapist? If it is the man's responsibility to keep it in his pants, why isn't it the woman's responsibility to keep her panties on?

Once again, only applicable when said impairment is the consequence of the person's own decision.
 
2013-03-13 02:40:20 PM

Sliding Carp: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 600x324]

 But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!


Came for a picture of Otter winking, but with this and Neidermeyer looking like....well Neidermeyer, I am leaving satisfied.
 
2013-03-13 02:41:00 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Women who say, "It's men's  problem... I shouldn't have to change..." remind me of the granny who totaled my car years ago.


If you wanted to rape her then yes I would say that is your problem.
 
2013-03-13 02:41:32 PM

hardinparamedic: lordaction: When you don't have facts I guess you have to attack the individual.

When the individual is an absurd liar with a history of posting things that would make even the most simple of person laugh in their face, and their profile, up until last week was filled with bizarre religious scripture, yes.


So no facts then.

I find it frightening how upset you get that I speak out  for the rights of the innocent.
 
2013-03-13 02:45:09 PM

quickdraw: BarkingUnicorn: Women who say, "It's men's  problem... I shouldn't have to change..." remind me of the granny who totaled my car years ago.

If you wanted to rape her then yes I would say that is your problem.


After hearing that, I wanted to rape her with my car's steering column.  But I didn't.
 
2013-03-13 02:45:42 PM

Marcus Aurelius: You need to be raped a few times.  You will change your point of view after it happens.


My point of view perhaps but not billions of years of evolution. Outside of prison, I'm not in much danger of being raped. Gay guys get all the willing partners they want (bastards).
 
2013-03-13 02:47:34 PM

BarkingUnicorn: quickdraw: BarkingUnicorn: Women who say, "It's men's  problem... I shouldn't have to change..." remind me of the granny who totaled my car years ago.

If you wanted to rape her then yes I would say that is your problem.

After hearing that, I wanted to rape her with my car's steering column.  But I didn't.


well then... yeah. You have a problem.
 
2013-03-13 02:49:15 PM

hardinparamedic: lordaction: When you don't have facts I guess you have to attack the individual.

When the individual is an absurd liar with a history of posting things that would make even the most simple of person laugh in their face, and their profile, up until last week was filled with bizarre religious scripture, yes.


Since you are so completely wrong on my stances, let me just make them really clear for you.


-God created Adam and Eve NOT ADAM AND STEVE

-The devil continues to tempt you all with the forbidden fruit, just as he tempted Eve, that's why you are atheists/Satanists

-Science is just an opinion

-Evolution doesn't real

-Jesus fed dinosaurs

-God put fossils in the Earth just to trick you

-Dawkins is the antichrist, no wonder you worship him

-You can  only be good with God

-Church should be taught in school

-Church should be everyday

-Priests should be judges in every court

-Obama is the other antichrist

-Babies should be allowed to carry guns

-Mothers who abort rape babies are going to hell

-God means for women to be raped

-And he wants them to have their rape babies

-Obama isn't a U.S. citizen

-George W. Bush was right about everything

-Jesus was white, like in the paintings
 
2013-03-13 02:50:47 PM

quickdraw: BarkingUnicorn: quickdraw: BarkingUnicorn: Women who say, "It's men's  problem... I shouldn't have to change..." remind me of the granny who totaled my car years ago.

If you wanted to rape her then yes I would say that is your problem.

After hearing that, I wanted to rape her with my car's steering column.  But I didn't.

well then... yeah. You have a problem.


I have a problem because I didn't rape a woman.  You are seriously farked in the head.
 
2013-03-13 02:51:04 PM

hardinparamedic: DerAppie: /seriously, why are men responsible while the woman is seen as the victim?

Might have to do with the fact that rape is a crime of power and control being generally accepted by the psychiatric community at large as the motivation, and not because the guy hasn't had his balls drained in the last few weeks.

DerAppie: If an 19 year old female goes to a party and has an undefined number of beers and then accepts the offer for sex from one of the male attending the party (who is also drunk) she doesn't get to claim rape as far as I'm concerned. Assuming no person slipped her something without her knowledge ofcourse. Any defense against this kind if "rape" would be: "But I was drunk to therefore she raped me." But since you'd get laughed out of the courtroom all the way to jail we'll never see that happen.

Maybe, and this is JUST a maybe here, knowing that the legal system is stacked against you to begin with, you shouldn't go fark random drunk girls who your knowledge of them is that they've giggled for twenty minutes over their beer.

I know. Keeping it in your pants is such a WEIRD concept.


Easier said than done if you're already thrice as drunk as the girl. In that case they look downright sober, you know.
 
2013-03-13 02:51:21 PM
Oh, I smell irony.
 
2013-03-13 02:51:48 PM
How rare.  A rape derp-fest with no republican involvement.
 
2013-03-13 02:58:17 PM

hardinparamedic: Maybe, and this is JUST a maybe here, knowing that the legal system is stacked against you to begin with, you shouldn't go fark random drunk girls who your knowledge of them is that they've giggled for twenty minutes over their beer.


Knowing that "the risks" are stacked against women for rape why not apply the same advice about hanging out and drinking with guys you don't knwo well?
 
2013-03-13 03:02:40 PM

BarkingUnicorn: quickdraw: BarkingUnicorn: quickdraw: BarkingUnicorn: Women who say, "It's men's  problem... I shouldn't have to change..." remind me of the granny who totaled my car years ago.

If you wanted to rape her then yes I would say that is your problem.

After hearing that, I wanted to rape her with my car's steering column.  But I didn't.

well then... yeah. You have a problem.

I have a problem because I didn't rape a woman.  You are seriously farked in the head.


That's not what I said at all. So it appears you have two problems.

1. Reading comprehension
2. A predilection for rape fantasies.
 
2013-03-13 03:04:45 PM

quickdraw: BarkingUnicorn: quickdraw: BarkingUnicorn: quickdraw: BarkingUnicorn: Women who say, "It's men's  problem... I shouldn't have to change..." remind me of the granny who totaled my car years ago.

If you wanted to rape her then yes I would say that is your problem.

After hearing that, I wanted to rape her with my car's steering column.  But I didn't.

well then... yeah. You have a problem.

I have a problem because I didn't rape a woman.  You are seriously farked in the head.

That's not what I said at all. So it appears you have two problems.

1. Reading comprehension
2. A predilection for rape fantasies.


3.  I take correspondents seriously for too long.
 
2013-03-13 03:07:38 PM

hardinparamedic: Maybe, and this is JUST a maybe here, knowing that the legal system is stacked against you to begin with, you shouldn't go fark random drunk girls who your knowledge of them is that they've giggled for twenty minutes over their beer.

I know. Keeping it in your pants is such a WEIRD concept.


I shouldn't have to change the way I live my life because women are unable to take responsibility for their choices. That is the WOMAN'S problem, not mine. I could have consensual sex with 1000 women at an orgy and it still wouldn't give a woman the right to withdraw consent after the fact. Telling men to keep it in their pants and not go to parties and not hit on drunk chicks will probably stop a tiny percentage of false rape accusations but I've got a super cool idea: instead of "educating" men on how to change their lives to avoid getting accused of rape, how about teaching women to stop treating the cops like their personal vengeance squad to do with what they wish? Or is that too much to ask?
 
2013-03-13 03:21:30 PM

umad: hardinparamedic: Maybe, and this is JUST a maybe here, knowing that the legal system is stacked against you to begin with, you shouldn't go fark random drunk girls who your knowledge of them is that they've giggled for twenty minutes over their beer.

I know. Keeping it in your pants is such a WEIRD concept.

I shouldn't have to change the way I live my life because women are unable to take responsibility for their choices. That is the WOMAN'S problem, not mine. I could have consensual sex with 1000 women at an orgy and it still wouldn't give a woman the right to withdraw consent after the fact. Telling men to keep it in their pants and not go to parties and not hit on drunk chicks will probably stop a tiny percentage of false rape accusations but I've got a super cool idea: instead of "educating" men on how to change their lives to avoid getting accused of rape, how about teaching women to stop treating the cops like their personal vengeance squad to do with what they wish? Or is that too much to ask?


Funny how you get mad (umad, LOL!) when I tell you the same thing that women have been told throughout this thread.

That pie. Taste humble?
 
2013-03-13 03:22:33 PM

hardinparamedic: Yeah, why shouldn't colleges, who have a vested interest in making rape cases disappear - both for public image/funding and for protecting certain fraternity members and interests - handle their own rape cases?

It's not like School Administrators and campus police have never been openly hostile, or threatened rape victims to shut their mouth, right?

Or, uh, threatened to expel them?

Or completely, utterly botched rape cases?


Now that my TF sub has lapsed is it uncool for me to declare a thread "done in one"? Even though I've got nothing against everything else  posted in this thread...
 
2013-03-13 03:25:08 PM

hardinparamedic: Funny how you get mad (umad, LOL!) when I tell you the same thing that women have been told throughout this thread.


I'm not mad. Like you, I am simply incapable of separating the group from the individual. Therefore all women are false rape accusers. Your gender just can't be trusted.
 
2013-03-13 03:27:41 PM

lordaction: hardinparamedic: lordaction: When you don't have facts I guess you have to attack the individual.

When the individual is an absurd liar with a history of posting things that would make even the most simple of person laugh in their face, and their profile, up until last week was filled with bizarre religious scripture, yes.

Since you are so completely wrong on my stances, let me just make them really clear for you.


-God created Adam and Eve NOT ADAM AND STEVE

-The devil continues to tempt you all with the forbidden fruit, just as he tempted Eve, that's why you are atheists/Satanists

-Science is just an opinion

-Evolution doesn't real

-Jesus fed dinosaurs

-God put fossils in the Earth just to trick you

-Dawkins is the antichrist, no wonder you worship him

-You can  only be good with God

-Church should be taught in school

-Church should be everyday

-Priests should be judges in every court

-Obama is the other antichrist

-Babies should be allowed to carry guns

-Mothers who abort rape babies are going to hell

-God means for women to be raped

-And he wants them to have their rape babies

-Obama isn't a U.S. citizen

-George W. Bush was right about everything

-Jesus was white, like in the paintings


I needed a good laugh, and Lo! One was sent.
 
2013-03-13 03:29:38 PM

YoungLochinvar: Easier said than done if you're already thrice as drunk as the girl. In that case they look downright sober, you know.


So what you're saying is that men are animals, devoid of personal responsibility and self-control, who are unable to stop themselves from getting so drunk they lose control of the situation, and get taken advantage of by the sex they like to portray as weak, helpless, and less worthy of respect?

Damn. Self-respect, dude. Self respect.

liam76: Knowing that "the risks" are stacked against women for rape why not apply the same advice about hanging out and drinking with guys you don't knwo well?


Probably because the statistics tell us that violence and sexual assault against men are almost never reported - and when done so are either treated with laughter and joking (Women rapes a man) or the person's told they just regret teh ghei (man rapes a man), follow different predatory patterns, and that male on male sexual violence tends to be rare despite what the focus on the family folks want to tell you?

Remember, Liam,  regret isn't rape. That's what's been repeated multiple times in this thread.  Regret isn't rape. Because,  everyone knows that the real issue is some campus slut is mad that she got banged while drunk, and just wants revenge. Despite the fact, depending on the literature and the organization putting it out, that only four to eighteen percent of rape cases are "false" or "regret" reporting.

So. Just because you feel bad about your ETOH fueled, cock-hungry gay trist with Ned the Frat brother who paddled you a little TOO hard in pledge week, it's not Rape, Liam. Shame on you for making it up.
 
2013-03-13 03:30:50 PM

umad: I'm not mad. Like you, I am simply incapable of separating the group from the individual. Therefore all women are false rape accusers. Your gender just can't be trusted.


Men can't be trusted. Damn. The neofeminists won.

weknowmemes.com
 
2013-03-13 03:32:20 PM

hardinparamedic: umad: I'm not mad. Like you, I am simply incapable of separating the group from the individual. Therefore all women are false rape accusers. Your gender just can't be trusted.

Men can't be trusted. Damn. The neofeminists won.

[weknowmemes.com image 431x254]


I never said you were a man.
 
2013-03-13 03:34:13 PM

umad: I never said you were a man.


No. You made a silly little claim about the exception defining the rule, rather than the rule having exceptions, and then inferred I thought that way because I was supposedly a woman.
 
2013-03-13 03:35:31 PM
s18.postimage.org
Council: I feel a vote at this time would be premature.
Rape Victim: Premature?
Council: Yes.  Instead, I'm going to organize a special blue ribbon, fact-finding commission made up of myself and Miss Betty Childs.  We will get to the bottom of this dastardly deed.
Rape Victim: You can't get away with this!
Council: I'm afraid I can.  Only the president of the Geek council can call a vote.
Rape Victim: That's unfair.
Council: Meeting adjourned.
 
2013-03-13 03:44:51 PM

DerAppie: /seriously, why are men responsible while the woman is seen as the victim?


Because penis.
 
2013-03-13 03:56:00 PM
People are really considering allowing colleges to handle this sort of thing internally?

The same colleges where - for the most part - being straight or white or male (let alone any combination thereof) is already 3/4ths of a crime of some sort or another on most days?
 
2013-03-13 03:56:35 PM
Oh sure, hand it over the the Greek council -- they did a bang-up job with the Euro...
 
2013-03-13 04:04:26 PM

hardinparamedic: umad: I never said you were a man.

No. You made a silly little claim about the exception defining the rule, rather than the rule having exceptions, and then inferred I thought that way because I was supposedly a woman.


No. I generalized about women because you generalized about men to show you that your argument is retarded.
 
2013-03-13 04:09:52 PM

hardinparamedic: umad: I never said you were a man.

No. You made a silly little claim about the exception defining the rule, rather than the rule having exceptions, and then inferred I thought that way because I was supposedly a woman.


And just FYI, being a rapist is every bit the exception to the rule as being a false accuser is. Funny you only care when one of them is misrepresented.
 
2013-03-13 04:14:51 PM
"Pop quiz: what major felony should be investigated and adjudicated by amateurs, in secret, without subpoena powers, a right to representation, or any kind of due process controls?
Did you say rape? If so, you probably work in university student affairs, where mock justice systems have been pretending to adjudicate sexual assault cases for decades. And it's time for that to stop."


Can't disagree with that.
 
2013-03-13 04:16:33 PM
I'm not sure why colleges shouldn't handle their own "rapes." The military handles its "rapes" on its own, and doesn't seem to think there's a problem. Are you questioning the wisdom of the military? If so, why do you hate America?
 
2013-03-13 04:24:58 PM

stonicus: Council: I feel a vote at this time would be premature.
Rape Victim: Premature?
Council: Yes.  Instead, I'm going to organize a special blue ribbon, fact-finding commission made up of myself and Miss Betty Childs.  We will get to the bottom of this dastardly deed.
Rape Victim: You can't get away with this!
Council: I'm afraid I can.  Only the president of the Geek council can call a vote.
Rape Victim: That's unfair.
Council: Meeting adjourned.


But Betty Childs IS a rape victim... her consent to the acts on the moon bounce were obtained through deception.
 
2013-03-13 04:33:27 PM

vicioushobbit: lordaction


I needed a good laugh, and Lo! One was sent.

Ditto.

It's kind of like Fundy Theatre. Whether sincere or a troll (or a joke), it's still funny shiat.
 
2013-03-13 05:56:09 PM

lordaction: That is farking absurd given that half of all rape accusations are false.


5% in the UK, according to Rape Crisis today. What evidence do you have to support 50%?
 
2013-03-13 05:59:17 PM

Marcus Aurelius: And by the way, in the armed forces, more men are raped (in sheer numbers) than women.  It's not about sex, it's about violence and power.


If it's not about sex, why not just a physical beating?
 
2013-03-13 06:03:48 PM
hardinparamedic: ...male on male sexual violence tends to be rare despite what the focus on the family folks want to tell you?

Prisons? Armed forces?
 
2013-03-13 06:06:54 PM

tlars699: hardinparamedic: the801: and i so don't want to sound 'blame the victim' here, 'cause rape is bad and rapists are responsible, but maybe "hey lets go to a frat party tonight! they have tons of booze, which we're mostly pretty inexperienced with, and they usually have some great drugs, and they're mostly good looking guys we would get to party with, and our late-adolescent sexual desires are aroused by the idea of partying with these good looking guys who will pay a lot of attention to us and give us free booze and drinks. and we sure don't want to have sex tonight, just a good time. par-tay!" isn't a wise choice when looking to avoid getting raped?

Great job sounding like "Not blaming the victim" when you said "If only those molded temptresses weren't there, the men wouldn't have gotten rapey!"

You are correct, that no man should be rapey. Ever.
But, really, defending idiotic girls who would insist on wearing miniskirts on New Year's Eve to outdoor "house" parties, who wish to partake in illegal activities, sponsored by older men for free... ? They have the right to be not raped, just as I have the right to not be robbed of a laptop that I leave in my unlocked car.
Even if I have that right, you still have the right to call me an idiot for allowing that situation to occur in the first place.

You can be completely capable of having fun on a campus, without making yourself a displayed sex object, whilst drinking with friends, and remain safe, and be able to choose which dude you prefer to sleep with. It's called table top gaming, or even a night of Halo.


This is pretty much where I'm at.  The victim is never to blame, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't take steps to mitigate risk.

If you're walking through southwest Detroit at 3am wearing a gold Rolex while counting out $100 bills and get mugged, the only person who deserves blame is the mugger but that doesn't mean you aren't an idiot.  Same with rape.  If a woman goes to a frat party wearing her sluttiest fark-me dress with and gets sloppy drunk with a bunch of strange men, is it her fault when she gets raped?  Of course not.  She should be able to do these things without risk of being attacked just like the person walking through SW Detroit counting money should be able to do so without being mugged.  The fault rests entirely with the attacker.  Is she to blame?  No.  Is what happened acceptable?  No.  Do I care or have any sympathy?  No.  It's a predictable outcome to a series of bad decisions.
 
2013-03-13 06:22:16 PM

DerAppie: hardinparamedic: DerAppie: /seriously, why are men responsible while the woman is seen as the victim?

Might have to do with the fact that rape is a crime of power and control being generally accepted by the psychiatric community at large as the motivation, and not because the guy hasn't had his balls drained in the last few weeks.

DerAppie: If an 19 year old female goes to a party and has an undefined number of beers and then accepts the offer for sex from one of the male attending the party (who is also drunk) she doesn't get to claim rape as far as I'm concerned. Assuming no person slipped her something without her knowledge ofcourse. Any defense against this kind if "rape" would be: "But I was drunk to therefore she raped me." But since you'd get laughed out of the courtroom all the way to jail we'll never see that happen.

Maybe, and this is JUST a maybe here, knowing that the legal system is stacked against you to begin with, you shouldn't go fark random drunk girls who your knowledge of them is that they've giggled for twenty minutes over their beer.

I know. Keeping it in your pants is such a WEIRD concept.

Yes, because drunk people are so well known for their well thought out actions. Being drunk seriously impairs your ability to judge the level of impairment in others. So once again, if a drunk man and a drunk woman have sex, why should the woman be the victim of rape and the man a rapist? If it is the man's responsibility to keep it in his pants, why isn't it the woman's responsibility to keep her panties on?

Once again, only applicable when said impairment is the consequence of the person's own decision.


You hit the nail on the head.  I've never understood how people can claim to be feminists/egalitarians and yet not see how obviously degrading this double standard is for women.  To say that intoxicated women are unable to give consent but intoxicated men are just perpetuates the stereotype that women are weak and need protection.

I used to work in law enforcement and I can tell you that we frequently had to explain to women that being pestered into having sex or having sex when you're drunk and regretting it the next day is NOT rape.  The only time someone is too inebriated to give consent is when they're literally too inebriated to give consent, as in unable to express consent verbally or otherwise.  A woman can be blackout drunk, stumbling and falling over, and still consent to sex as long as she's coherent enough to express that consent.  I don't know why this is so difficult for people to understand.

I remember once where we actually apprehended a group of marines for supposedly "raping" some dependent spouse while her service-member was deployed.  One of them had a cell phone video depicting her engaged in obviously consensual sex with this group of marines.  I won't go into too much detail, but suffice to say it's hard to scream "Give it to me devil dogs!" with a mouthful of cock.  Showing her the video, explaining to her that she was a lying whore, and charging her for the false report were deeply satisfying.
 
2013-03-13 06:23:23 PM

stonicus: [s18.postimage.org image 425x233]
Council: I feel a vote at this time would be premature.
Rape Victim: Premature?
Council: Yes.  Instead, I'm going to organize a special blue ribbon, fact-finding commission made up of myself and Miss Betty Childs.  We will get to the bottom of this dastardly deed.
Rape Victim: You can't get away with this!
Council: I'm afraid I can.  Only the president of the Geek council can call a vote.
Rape Victim: That's unfair.
Council: Meeting adjourned.


Came for the Revenge of the Nerds reference.
 
2013-03-13 06:44:14 PM
Why is this even a question? Of course the criminal justice system should handle these!
 
2013-03-13 06:44:35 PM

JesusJuice: I remember once where we actually apprehended a group of marines for supposedly "raping" some dependent spouse while her service-member was deployed. One of them had a cell phone video depicting her engaged in obviously consensual sex with this group of marines. I won't go into too much detail, but suffice to say it's hard to scream "Give it to me devil dogs!" with a mouthful of cock. Showing her the video, explaining to her that she was a lying whore, and charging her for the false report were deeply satisfying.


Well, there you go!  Record every fark and there won't be any problems.
 
2013-03-13 06:44:52 PM

JesusJuice: DerAppie: hardinparamedic: DerAppie: /seriously, why are men responsible while the woman is seen as the victim?

Might have to do with the fact that rape is a crime of power and control being generally accepted by the psychiatric community at large as the motivation, and not because the guy hasn't had his balls drained in the last few weeks.

DerAppie: If an 19 year old female goes to a party and has an undefined number of beers and then accepts the offer for sex from one of the male attending the party (who is also drunk) she doesn't get to claim rape as far as I'm concerned. Assuming no person slipped her something without her knowledge ofcourse. Any defense against this kind if "rape" would be: "But I was drunk to therefore she raped me." But since you'd get laughed out of the courtroom all the way to jail we'll never see that happen.

Maybe, and this is JUST a maybe here, knowing that the legal system is stacked against you to begin with, you shouldn't go fark random drunk girls who your knowledge of them is that they've giggled for twenty minutes over their beer.

I know. Keeping it in your pants is such a WEIRD concept.

Yes, because drunk people are so well known for their well thought out actions. Being drunk seriously impairs your ability to judge the level of impairment in others. So once again, if a drunk man and a drunk woman have sex, why should the woman be the victim of rape and the man a rapist? If it is the man's responsibility to keep it in his pants, why isn't it the woman's responsibility to keep her panties on?

Once again, only applicable when said impairment is the consequence of the person's own decision.

You hit the nail on the head.  I've never understood how people can claim to be feminists/egalitarians and yet not see how obviously degrading this double standard is for women.  To say that intoxicated women are unable to give consent but intoxicated men are just perpetuates the stereotype that women are weak and need protection.

I used t ...


I pose this question in every rape thread. I have never gotten an answer. It mostly ends with a lot of vitrol about me defending rapists and being a misogynist. If I´m lucky I´ll make some people think about what is going on, but this being the internet no one is going to admit to changing his or her mind.
 
2013-03-13 07:00:59 PM

lordaction: I find it frightening how upset you get that I speak out for the rights of the innocent rapists.


Typical Republican then?
 
2013-03-13 07:07:34 PM
Anyone who gets raped and then goes to the college or university instead of the police is a moron.  You call the cops first, then notifiy the school if it happened on campus, thus avoiding any potential bullshiat from a school scared of tarnishing its good name.
 
2013-03-13 07:15:44 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Well, there you go!  Record every fark and there won't be any problems.


Waaaay ahead o' ya.
 
2013-03-13 07:17:57 PM
The Greek System was invented so that guys who cannot get drunk or laid on their own had a chance to do so
 
2013-03-13 07:20:47 PM
www.chicagonow.com
This is relevant to my interests...
 
2013-03-13 07:24:54 PM
Duke Lacrosse
 
2013-03-13 07:33:30 PM

DerAppie: /seriously, why are men responsible while the woman is seen as the victim?


Because it is fairly difficult to get a boner while completely smashed, especially if you're passed out.  Since a boner is required for sex to occur, that would suggest it is unlikely that the dude was completely smashed - and very improbable that he was passed out.  The girl, on the other hand, can be dead, passed out, whatever - doesn't stop the sex from happening.

Glad to have cleared that up for you.  Next problem plaguing your poor little tortured soul?
 
2013-03-13 07:42:52 PM
tlars699:You are correct, that no man should be rapey. Ever.
But, really, defending idiotic girls who would insist on wearing miniskirts on New Year's Eve to outdoor "house" parties, who wish to partake in illegal activities, sponsored by older men for free... ? They have the right to be not raped, just as I have the right to not be robbed of a laptop that I leave in my unlocked car.
Even if I have that right, you still have the right to call me an idiot for allowing that situation to occur in the first place.

You can be completely capable of having fun on a campus, without making yourself a displayed sex object, whilst drinking with friends, and remain safe, and be able to choose which dude you prefer to sleep with. It's called table top gaming, or even a night of Halo.


You are correct that looking at a hot girl makes you think about sex. Congratulations on being a normal hetero male.

But in both abstract studies and interviews with convicted rapists, what the rapists were looking for wasn't that at all. It was certain kinds of vulnerability that turns them on. At these parties, it's specifically a social vulnerability; they pick out the girls who can be separated from the herd: The shy one in the corner who only came to the party because her friends dragged her, then promptly abandoned her. She's probably dressed more librarian than slut, but she's the one who'll get raped if she gets drunk enough. The semi-pro party girls you're talking about normally watch out for each other.

Weirdly, the majority of rapists have no idea how their victim was dressed. They honestly never even noticed. The exceptions are the "fetish rapists", who select their victims solely because of some physical characteristic or clothing item they're wearing.

Rapists don't see women at all the way I do. I find that reassuring.
 
2013-03-13 07:43:47 PM
I think the larger question is whether or not Greek councils should be allowed to handle anything at all.
 
2013-03-13 07:45:21 PM

IamAwake: DerAppie: /seriously, why are men responsible while the woman is seen as the victim?

Because it is fairly difficult to get a boner while completely smashed, especially if you're passed out.  Since a boner is required for sex to occur, that would suggest it is unlikely that the dude was completely smashed - and very improbable that he was passed out.  The girl, on the other hand, can be dead, passed out, whatever - doesn't stop the sex from happening.

Glad to have cleared that up for you.  Next problem plaguing your poor little tortured soul?


Er... nobody's saying that it's okay to have sex with passed out women.

He was referring to the double standard where if a man and a woman, both equally intoxicated, engage in sex, the man is seen as a rapist and the woman's consent regarded as invalid because of her intoxication while the man's consent is taken as a given regardless of his intoxication.  What does anything you wrote have to do with that?
 
2013-03-13 07:45:24 PM
NO.

It's an obvious conflict of interest. Plain and simple.

When organizations are allowed to police themselves, cover-ups happen.

See the endemic sex abuse in the US Military, the Jerry Sandusky scandal or the Catholic Church covering up for pedophile priests as prime examples.
 
2013-03-13 07:50:01 PM

IamAwake: DerAppie: /seriously, why are men responsible while the woman is seen as the victim?

Because it is fairly difficult to get a boner while completely smashed, especially if you're passed out.  Since a boner is required for sex to occur, that would suggest it is unlikely that the dude was completely smashed - and very improbable that he was passed out.  The girl, on the other hand, can be dead, passed out, whatever - doesn't stop the sex from happening.

Glad to have cleared that up for you.  Next problem plaguing your poor little tortured soul?


Nice strawman, I was talking about intoxicated people who willingly did things together. If one of them is physically unable to give consent for whatever reason it defaults to rape. But there is a whole lot of gray area in which men are rapists and women are innocent victims according to a lot of people.

blogs.amctv.com
I hope this message will help you in being less obtuse in the future.
 
2013-03-13 07:54:12 PM

hardinparamedic: liam76: Knowing that "the risks" are stacked against women for rape why not apply the same advice about hanging out and drinking with guys you don't knwo well?

Probably because the statistics tell us that violence and sexual assault against men are almost never reported - and when done so are either treated with laughter and joking (Women rapes a man) or the person's told they just regret teh ghei (man rapes a man), follow different predatory patterns, and that male on male sexual violence tends to be rare despite what the focus on the family folks want to tell you?


You are making a stronger case for women not to hang out with men they don't know well when drinking.

hardinparamedic: Remember, Liam, regret isn't rape. That's what's been repeated multiple times in this thread. Regret isn't rape. Because, everyone knows that the real issue is some campus slut is mad that she got banged while drunk, and just wants revenge. Despite the fact, depending on the literature and the organization putting it out, that only four to eighteen percent of rape cases are "false" or "regret" reporting.


Not sure where you are going with this, I never said "regret is rape".

Someone pointed out something messed up with our system, and your advice was "you should avoid those situations".  I am just pointing out that is exactly the same as what you earlier said was "blaming the victim".
   

hardinparamedic: So. Just because you feel bad about your ETOH fueled, cock-hungry gay trist with Ned the Frat brother who paddled you a little TOO hard in pledge week, it's not Rape, Liam. Shame on you for making it up


Do you often create rape stories about dudes you talk to on-line?

I mean if that is your thing, good for you, but this really isn't the appropriate forum for your little fantasies.

It takes a lot for me to ignore people on here, but if you regularly post your gay BDSM stories I am going to have to do that.

 
2013-03-13 08:01:20 PM

IamAwake: DerAppie: /seriously, why are men responsible while the woman is seen as the victim?

Because it is fairly difficult to get a boner while completely smashed, especially if you're passed out.  Since a boner is required for sex to occur, that would suggest it is unlikely that the dude was completely smashed - and very improbable that he was passed out.  The girl, on the other hand, can be dead, passed out, whatever - doesn't stop the sex from happening.

Glad to have cleared that up for you.  Next problem plaguing your poor little tortured soul?


That's  cut and dried when the girl is passed out cold.  What if she's no more inebriated than the guy?

Also, it is not uncommon for a drunk to function at a relatively high level without remembering it later.  Amnesia is not proof that one was unconscious in the past.  In fact, it's rather difficult to determine objectively whether a subject can recall something or not.

Again, the best thing to do is to record every fark.
 
2013-03-13 08:06:58 PM

IamAwake: Because it is fairly difficult to get a boner while completely smashed, especially if you're passed out. Since a boner is required for sex to occur, that would suggest it is unlikely that the dude was completely smashed - and very improbable that he was passed out. The girl, on the other hand, can be dead, passed out, whatever - doesn't stop the sex from happening.

Glad to have cleared that up for you. Next problem plaguing your poor little tortured soul?


The effects of any impairing substance can be wild, varied, and utterly unpredictable. Alcohol is particularly well known for this and the human mind, memory, ect is not well understood. These factors all come together to produce some results which seem unbelievable but they do happen more often than you seem to think. Being drunk doesn't excuse you from criminal behavior but when all parties involved have had a lot of alcohol it's going to be very hard to say what happened without 3rd party witnesses.

When you combine this with the new way of "guilty until proven innocent then the SOB probably just got away with it" attitude toward accused rapists it produces some poor attitudes on the whole thing.
 
2013-03-13 08:08:57 PM

orbister: If it's not about sex, why not just a physical beating?



Think about this, and be honest: if you get into an accident with a guy friend, and he gave you an ultimatum, to either submit to a beating, or him raping you, which would you take?  Or you want to break up with your girlfriend, she instead clocks you with a frying pan, throws you on the bed, and pegs you without lube, screaming that you aren't breaking up with her, is that not so bad as her only beating you with the frying pan?  Or you're at a party, drunk and high as fark, and the ugly girl comes over and starts jerking you off.  You try pushing her away because you have a girlfriend already, and you really don't want a handjob from that girl, and it's starting to hurt, but you're drunk and so, handjob!, all because you mumbled something?

There is a sexual component, but that's not the reason behind the act.  It's not about getting off, or farking a hot pussy.  Maybe that helps the selection of "victim", and maybe it really turns you on when someone cries, or lays catatonic, as you fark them.  You could pay for that and be done with it.  Rape is about control.  It's about degrading someone in the most intimate way imaginable.  It's about making them feel pain in an act that is otherwise damned awesome.  It's about somehow restraining someone and entering their body as if it's yours to play with and break, and there's not a damned thing they can do about it.  You can beat someone, and that is horrible with long-term physical and psychological impact.  There is an added horror when you involve sexual organs in the beating.
 
2013-03-13 08:44:25 PM

JesusJuice: You hit the nail on the head. I've never understood how people can claim to be feminists/egalitarians and yet not see how obviously degrading this double standard is for women. To say that intoxicated women are unable to give consent but intoxicated men are just perpetuates the stereotype that women are weak and need protection.

I used to work in law enforcement and I can tell you that we frequently had to explain to women that being pestered into having sex or having sex when you're drunk and regretting it the next day is NOT rape. The only time someone is too inebriated to give consent is when they're literally too inebriated to give consent, as in unable to express consent verbally or otherwise. A woman can be blackout drunk, stumbling and falling over, and still consent to sex as long as she's coherent enough to express that consent. I don't know why this is so difficult for people to understand.

I remember once where we actually apprehended a group of marines for supposedly "raping" some dependent spouse while her service-member was deployed. One of them had a cell phone video depicting her engaged in obviously consensual sex with this group of marines. I won't go into too much detail, but suffice to say it's hard to scream "Give it to me devil dogs!" with a mouthful of cock. Showing her the video, explaining to her that she was a lying whore, and charging her for the false report were deeply satisfying.


I liked my old RA's rule: 'Never fark anyone unless you're both stone sober. Ever. For safety reasons and because drunk sex sucks.'

Sure, following it meant that I had to drag this cute guy friend I'd gone on a first-date with back to the student-union for coffee and free breakfast, we both ate like three muffins, I helped him puke into a trash can, we took a bus home and fell asleep all snuggly-like in front of the TV in the lounge. I woke up with a tearing hangover, so he took me to the cafeteria for orange juice, and after looking after one another's physical needs the night before, it wasn't so hard to look after each other's other needs, with that certain level of intimacy already established. As I remember it, we decided to shower off first, saw no problem with doing so together and didn't even make it out of the bathroom until round two.

And the other convenient thing about the rule was that since we'd had the same RA, all I had to do was mention that she'd suggested said rule and ask if he agreed before the first date began. He did, and we went into it with the expectation that any sexytimes would occur well after. It removed a lot of social pressure and we got to know one another better, I expect, though the fact that we were friends who decided to try dating likely helped.

I left college engaged to be married to the love of my life. Some of my friends, male and female alike, left college as rape victims, and all because they had a different RA than me and made the mistake of mixing sex and booze or drinking to excess around people they couldn't trust not to hold them down and force matters. (Which, if the aggressors had followed the rule, would never have occurred, allegedly, as their big defense was 'well, I was drunk.')

"Sex is like driving. It's best not to do it drunk." What could be simpler?

Interestingly, not one of the cases the university handled ended fairly for anyone, and not one of the rapists was punished by anything save a 'Bad student, no cookie!' In fact, one of them continued to rape women, and the third time around the last girl called the state police rather than trying to rely on the school to do the right thing and got the son of a biatch sent to PMITA. It helped that she was stone sober at the time and related to a rich enough politician that the school couldn't shove it under the rug.
 
2013-03-13 09:05:33 PM

IamAwake: do you *seriously* never want to go out and just have fun?  Or maybe, I dunno, get to mutually choose/consent to who you have sex with?  Farking idiot.  For fark's sake, I go out and party quite often, I just happen to have a dick instead of a vagina.  Am I asking for it too, though?


well if she's drunk, and you're too drunk to tell how drunk she is, well according to the law, if she's too drunk to give consent, you're guilty. Know a couple people that served time for that, aka: buyer's remorse.
 
2013-03-13 09:08:12 PM
SQD,

That's a good rule to have and drunk sex sure isn't classy but that doesn't make it, by itself, rape.  The cases you describe ("hold them down and force matters") would be rape regardless of whether drinking was involved or not.
 
2013-03-13 09:11:47 PM

BlaqueKatt: IamAwake: do you *seriously* never want to go out and just have fun?  Or maybe, I dunno, get to mutually choose/consent to who you have sex with?  Farking idiot.  For fark's sake, I go out and party quite often, I just happen to have a dick instead of a vagina.  Am I asking for it too, though?

well if she's drunk, and you're too drunk to tell how drunk she is, well according to the law, if she's too drunk to give consent, you're guilty. Know a couple people that served time for that, aka: buyer's remorse.


Yet he is also drunk and therefore she is also guilty (if the law is any kind of fair). What do we have then? Mutual non-consensual sex? Did they rape each other? How do you rape someone without at least having some intention to perform sexual acts?

See how stupid this can get?
 
2013-03-13 09:22:02 PM
hardinparamedic: YoungLochinvar: Easier said than done if you're already thrice as drunk as the girl. In that case they look downright sober, you know.

So what you're saying is that men are animals, devoid of personal responsibility and self-control, who are unable to stop themselves from getting so drunk they lose control of the situation, and get taken advantage of by the sex they like to portray as weak, helpless, and less worthy of respect?

Damn. Self-respect, dude. Self respect.


Are you even aware how ridiculous your interpretation of what I've said is (not to mention how inherently sexist it shows you to be)?
 
2013-03-13 09:25:54 PM

IamAwake: DerAppie: /seriously, why are men responsible while the woman is seen as the victim?

Because it is fairly difficult to get a boner while completely smashed, especially if you're passed out.  Since a boner is required for sex to occur, that would suggest it is unlikely that the dude was completely smashed - and very improbable that he was passed out.  The girl, on the other hand, can be dead, passed out, whatever - doesn't stop the sex from happening.

Glad to have cleared that up for you.  Next problem plaguing your poor little tortured soul?


It's not as difficult as you seem to think, and it's certainly *far* from impossible. Now, I totally agree that sleeping with a passed out woman is rape, because she CANNOT GIVE CONSENT. That *is* rape. Not really a hard concept. Not the question you were asked, however.
 
2013-03-14 12:53:14 AM
It's funny to watch people define rape as being about power, and then claim all the power in defining what constitutes rape. It takes a special form of stupid to pretend there's only one side to the story.
 
2013-03-14 01:00:15 AM
Can't tell if this question is serious...
 
2013-03-14 07:54:24 AM

YoungLochinvar: hardinparamedic: YoungLochinvar: Easier said than done if you're already thrice as drunk as the girl. In that case they look downright sober, you know.

So what you're saying is that men are animals, devoid of personal responsibility and self-control, who are unable to stop themselves from getting so drunk they lose control of the situation, and get taken advantage of by the sex they like to portray as weak, helpless, and less worthy of respect?

Damn. Self-respect, dude. Self respect.

Are you even aware how ridiculous your interpretation of what I've said is (not to mention how inherently sexist it shows you to be)?


Funny isn't it? The latest argument for women not being responsible for their own actions after drinking is that men shouldn't drink so much that they lose the ability to effectively judge level of intoxication in others. As opposed to women not drinking so much that they lose the ability to keep in control of the situation.
 
2013-03-14 08:36:54 AM

orbister: Marcus Aurelius: And by the way, in the armed forces, more men are raped (in sheer numbers) than women.  It's not about sex, it's about violence and power.

If it's not about sex, why not just a physical beating?


Because nothing says "dominance" quite like sticking your dick in their ass.
 
2013-03-14 08:45:34 AM
the801: and i so don't want to sound 'blame the victim' here, 'cause rape is bad and rapists are responsible, but maybe "hey lets go to a frat party tonight! ...<snip>


You'll never win that one. The response will be "teach men not to rape."

I saw a woman on NBC who kept pressing that she doesn't want to hear anyone try to tell her how her actions have any bearing at all. It all comes down to the aggressor.

While that may be true, predators pick prey based on readily apparent visual queues. You mileage may vary. I truly wish  success for women who demand society to change but are unwilling to change their actions in any way.
 
2013-03-14 08:49:56 AM

DerAppie: Funny isn't it? The latest argument for women not being responsible for their own actions after drinking is that men shouldn't drink so much that they lose the ability to effectively judge level of intoxication in others. As opposed to women not drinking so much that they lose the ability to keep in control of the situation.


The fact that you took an obvious reversal and lampshading of your words in this thread towards women and tried to portray it as a factual, completely serious statement on my part shows you really don't have any desire to have honest discussion about this.

It's perfectly okay to give the guy a clean pass, and blame the woman, but when it's the opposite scenario, somehow I offend you, you delicate little flower.
 
2013-03-14 09:11:51 AM

teenytinycornteeth: I shouldn't have to change the way I live my life because men are unable to control their animal instincts to jump on and have sex with everything that arouses them.  That is the MAN'S problem, not mine.


I would say that anyone getting raped DOES have a problem. All of your wishes notwithstanding.
 
2013-03-14 09:16:23 AM

teenytinycornteeth: BarkingUnicorn: teenytinycornteeth: the801:


If you want to leave your safety entirely in someone else's hands, go ahead.

Because asking men to change their views of what they can do to women is just too big of a task, eh?



You always take the same approach in all of these threads. Is it really still unclear to you? YES it too big of a farking task, because more, entitled, assholes with nothing to lose, reach sexual maturity EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.
 
2013-03-14 09:53:18 AM

hardinparamedic: DerAppie: Funny isn't it? The latest argument for women not being responsible for their own actions after drinking is that men shouldn't drink so much that they lose the ability to effectively judge level of intoxication in others. As opposed to women not drinking so much that they lose the ability to keep in control of the situation.

The fact that you took an obvious reversal and lampshading of your words in this thread towards women and tried to portray it as a factual, completely serious statement on my part shows you really don't have any desire to have honest discussion about this.

It's perfectly okay to give the guy a clean pass, and blame the woman, but when it's the opposite scenario, somehow I offend you, you delicate little flower.


Show me one post in this thread where I blamed women for anything. Just one. There are none because all I asked for was for someone to explain the dichotomy in the perception of responsibility when two people have drunken sex (hint: society puts it all on the man). I never said women asked to be rape or deserved to be raped, secretly liked to be raped, couldn't handle responsibility, make their own decisions or anything like that. I also never claimed that women need to be sheltered from anything. My point was the exact opposite, why are women being sheltered by society from taking responsibility for their own actions? I also never gave anyone a clean pass because there is no clean pass to be given. Two people have drunken sex and that's the end of it. So either none are guilty or they are both guilty. Since you can't logically both be guilty of raping each other, no one should be held accountable for a crime for none was committed.

In my first two posts I even made the statement that the intoxication has to be of their own choosing, therefore slipping someone alcohol or drugs isn't something you can bring against my point. People also brought up that someone could be passed out or even dead, but then you aren't having sex since you aren't participating. You are just having sex done to you. I also stated that this is clearly rape. So maybe you are willing to give it one last shot: Why does society put all the responsibility on men? Even in your first reaction to me you said that men should just keep it in their pants when they do not know how drunk the woman is, yet you make no mention of the responsibility of the woman to keep her panties on. Why?

I'll read your next response and then I'll tag out if it doesn't address at least the main points of this post. So if you are actually interested in a decent conversation you'd better make it count.
 
2013-03-14 09:55:42 AM

mike_d85: MadMonk: Wait a minute here, are we talking about legitimate rape?

It's at a college, so about 50/50.

Remarkable number of pregnant "rape victims" on my alma mater's campus. Almost all seemed to be attacked by a stranger on the street at night. You know, the statistical opposite of how rape normally occurs.


I was wonder how long it would take before people simply started flat-out lying in this thread.
 
2013-03-14 09:56:36 AM

the801: frat boys already have a lot of experience with rape; i say we leave it to the pros.

ftfa: "The two processes are not mutually exclusive: survivors can take action through both their college disciplinary systems and the criminal justice system and, indeed, colleges should inform and educate them about their right to do so. "

i feel especially sorry for the ones who didn't survive...

and i so don't want to sound 'blame the victim' here, 'cause rape is bad and rapists are responsible, but maybe "hey lets go to a frat party tonight! they have tons of booze, which we're mostly pretty inexperienced with, and they usually have some great drugs, and they're mostly good looking guys we would get to party with, and our late-adolescent sexual desires are aroused by the idea of partying with these good looking guys who will pay a lot of attention to us and give us free booze and drinks. and we sure don't want to have sex tonight, just a good time. par-tay!" isn't a wise choice when looking to avoid getting raped?


Then you really should have stopped talking.
 
2013-03-14 10:00:51 AM

WhoopAssWayne: BarkingUnicorn: Four women's answer:  "We want it both ways."

Yep. The feminists are just like any other crackpot special interest group - "give us everything we want and f*ck everyone else." NOW, PETA, MADD, etc. just don't have an ounce of credibility, and once lost, it's almost impossible to regain.


Speaking of people who just don't have an ounce of credibility ...
 
2013-03-14 04:18:33 PM
There's some good stuff in here, too - I especially liked point number 3:

http://www.thenation.com/article/172643/ten-things-end-rape-culture#
 
Displayed 178 of 178 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report