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(DeaconPedro.com)   Watching the Conclave? As you do, consider these interesting stats on the electors. Who knew the Catholics had gerrymandering and deck-stacking?   (deaconpedro.com) divider line 51
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4867 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Mar 2013 at 12:29 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-13 09:12:55 AM  
Italy has 28. Actually, Italy has 49 cardinals, except that only 28 of them are under 80 years old.

The significance of "under 80 years old," I learned, is that once you're over 80 you don't get a vote.

I'm not Catholic, but this whole process is fascinating to me.  All things considered, people hoping for a liberalization of the church under a new pope probably won't be happy with the outcome.  I just don't see "the system" allowing a reformer to be elected.
 
2013-03-13 09:39:50 AM  

Earguy: Italy has 28. Actually, Italy has 49 cardinals, except that only 28 of them are under 80 years old.

The significance of "under 80 years old," I learned, is that once you're over 80 you don't get a vote.

I'm not Catholic, but this whole process is fascinating to me.  All things considered, people hoping for a liberalization of the church under a new pope probably won't be happy with the outcome.  I just don't see "the system" allowing a reformer to be elected.


If by "reform," you mean major changes in doctrine, I don't think that will happen.  If you mean structural and institutional reform, I am holding out hope that they elect someone with the strength and charisma to clean up the recent corruption scandals and resolve the long-standing issues surrounding the sex abuse cover-ups, and I guess as long as I'm making a wish list, reforming the priesthood and increasing the role of women in Church leadership would be nice. I have to think part of Benedict XVI's thought process in retiring was recognizing those issues have to be addressed, and not by an aged Pope who lacks the energy to do it.
 
2013-03-13 10:00:10 AM  

Nabb1: I have to think part of Benedict XVI's thought process in retiring was recognizing those issues have to be addressed, and not by an aged Pope who lacks the energy to do it.


Either that, or he just had an "I'm too old for this shiat" moment in general. If I recall correctly, when he was chosen it was pretty clear that they wanted an interim pope. I don't think anyone expected him to resign, but they didn't expect him to have the kind of reign JP2 had either. So maybe this time around they'll pick someone more interesting at least.
 
2013-03-13 10:07:26 AM  

nekom: Nabb1: I have to think part of Benedict XVI's thought process in retiring was recognizing those issues have to be addressed, and not by an aged Pope who lacks the energy to do it.

Either that, or he just had an "I'm too old for this shiat" moment in general. If I recall correctly, when he was chosen it was pretty clear that they wanted an interim pope. I don't think anyone expected him to resign, but they didn't expect him to have the kind of reign JP2 had either. So maybe this time around they'll pick someone more interesting at least.


That, and when JPII's health really started to decline, other Cardinals had to do a lot of the heavy lifting and the main one was Ratzinger and I really think he didn't want to see that happen again.
 
2013-03-13 10:16:07 AM  

Nabb1: If by "reform," you mean major changes in doctrine, I don't think that will happen. If you mean structural and institutional reform, I am holding out hope that they elect someone with the strength and charisma to clean up the recent corruption scandals and resolve the long-standing issues surrounding the sex abuse cover-ups, and I guess as long as I'm making a wish list, reforming the priesthood and increasing the role of women in Church leadership would be nice.


As noted, I'm not Catholic, but my wife is, and we raised our kids catholic, so I've had a pretty good look at how things go.

As far as cleaning up scandals, I think the bigger problem is why guys go into the priesthood in the first place.

In many poor countries, becoming a priest is a socially exalted way for men to escape poverty.  Hence, the number of foreign-born priests flooding USA parishes.  These men don't necessarily fervently believe the doctrine, instead it's a ticket out.  And frankly, many of them alienate Americans.  I've seen several who are difficult to understand in their homilies, and they're not especially effective at family counseling and other important tasks, simply because they can't relate, and their English is not fully fluent.

Seems to me like a lot of priests in the USA have issues/demons that they're trying to suppress, like homosexuality and pedophilia.  I'm not equating the two by any means, but if you're a believer, going into the priesthood can be seen as a way to isolate yourself from temptation, and a way to pray away your demons.  For these cases, the church is going to have to clean house of pedophiles, which means a several parish priests would suddenly disappear, probably without explanation, or with a BS excuse.

And then the Church would have to at least internally address the number of gays in their ranks.  They need to reconcile the difference between The Church's view on gays vs. the reality of practicing gays and lesbians within The Church.  Are they welcome or not?

Increasing the role of women?  I just don't see it happening.
 
2013-03-13 10:24:19 AM  

Earguy:
In many poor countries, becoming a priest is a socially exalted way for men to escape poverty.  Hence, the number of foreign-born priests flooding USA parishes.  These men don't necessarily fervently believe the doctrine, instead it's a ticket out.  And frankly, many of them alienate Americans.  I've seen several who are difficult to understand in their homilies, and they're not especially effective at family counseling and other important tasks, simply because they can't relate, and their English is not fully fluent.


That's one of those things that would have NEVER occurred to me, but makes sense once I hear it. Thanks for sharing that tidbit.
 
2013-03-13 10:27:58 AM  

nekom: Earguy:
In many poor countries, becoming a priest is a socially exalted way for men to escape poverty.  Hence, the number of foreign-born priests flooding USA parishes.  These men don't necessarily fervently believe the doctrine, instead it's a ticket out.  And frankly, many of them alienate Americans.  I've seen several who are difficult to understand in their homilies, and they're not especially effective at family counseling and other important tasks, simply because they can't relate, and their English is not fully fluent.


That's one of those things that would have NEVER occurred to me, but makes sense once I hear it. Thanks for sharing that tidbit.


Cool.  I had a priest explain that one to me.
 
2013-03-13 10:53:07 AM  
Complaining that there are a lot of Italian Catholics is like complaining there are a lot of Koreans working for Samsung or Germans at Mercedes Benz.

It's their company.
 
2013-03-13 10:53:46 AM  
catholics = cardinals

dammit
 
2013-03-13 11:51:31 AM  
Who knew the Catholics had gerrymandering and deck-stacking?

Anyone who has paid the least bit of attention to European history?
 
2013-03-13 12:03:26 PM  

Therion: Who knew the Catholics had gerrymandering and deck-stacking?

Anyone who has paid the least bit of attention to European history?


And been talked about plenty, and with better pictures than the one from the link.

http://www.pewforum.org/Christian/Catholic/Geography-of-the-Conclave .a spx

www.pewforum.org

Which gives some actual perspective of relative power compared to population.
 
2013-03-13 12:32:52 PM  
Why wouldn't they? They are already guilty of covering up the largest organized pederasty scandal in the world.

Name one farking bishop who picked up a phone and called the police and said come pick up this sick bastige before I forget my vows not to harm another human?

No?
None?

right.
Cover up.
/All guilty
 
2013-03-13 12:35:31 PM  

vudukungfu: Why wouldn't they? They are already guilty of covering up the largest organized pederasty scandal in the world.

Name one farking bishop who picked up a phone and called the police and said come pick up this sick bastige before I forget my vows not to harm another human?

No?
None?

right.
Cover up.
/All guilty


And frankly, at this point, anybody who's still a member of the church is implicitly saying "hey, I don't have a problem with kiddy rape"
 
2013-03-13 12:38:26 PM  
raises hand
 
2013-03-13 12:39:56 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-03-13 12:40:10 PM  

Therion: Who knew the Catholics had gerrymandering and deck-stacking?

Anyone who has paid the least bit of attention to European history?


Do you think the GOP or DFL is smart enough to invent these oldies?

Earguy: nekom: Earguy:
In many poor countries, becoming a priest is a socially exalted way for men to escape poverty.  Hence, the number of foreign-born priests flooding USA parishes.  These men don't necessarily fervently believe the doctrine, instead it's a ticket out.  And frankly, many of them alienate Americans.  I've seen several who are difficult to understand in their homilies, and they're not especially effective at family counseling and other important tasks, simply because they can't relate, and their English is not fully fluent.


That's one of those things that would have NEVER occurred to me, but makes sense once I hear it. Thanks for sharing that tidbit.

Cool.  I had a priest explain that one to me.


Always been that way.
The redhats are the best out getters, not the best outers.
Move along.
 
2013-03-13 12:42:14 PM  
I find this as interesting as the color of this morning's turd.
 
2013-03-13 12:42:27 PM  
I offended a few FB friends today.  One of them posted about the Conclave, and a bunch of her friends started on about them doing gods work, blah blah blah.  I came back with "well, when you get right down to it, its a popularity election, like any other, isn't it?  Its not like they sit around until one of them glows, and then say "God chose him".
 
2013-03-13 12:44:39 PM  
Ok there's a seagull on the chimney now.  What does that indicate?
 
2013-03-13 12:44:50 PM  

DammitIForgotMyLogin: vudukungfu: Why wouldn't they? They are already guilty of covering up the largest organized pederasty scandal in the world.

Name one farking bishop who picked up a phone and called the police and said come pick up this sick bastige before I forget my vows not to harm another human?

No?
None?

right.
Cover up.
/All guilty

And frankly, at this point, anybody who's still a member of the church is implicitly saying "hey, I don't have a problem with kiddy rape"


If you give them a cent, you're saying that.

Cut off their income, put them out of business.

"but, but ,but, they do a lot of good things."  If you give me $1,000,000,000 I can do a lot of good AND have $500,000,000 left over.
 
2013-03-13 12:47:56 PM  
Isn't dick stacking one of the reasons the Catholic church has been getting bad press recently?
 
2013-03-13 12:49:02 PM  
They're probably playing bingo, blackout gets the altar boy.
 
2013-03-13 12:51:03 PM  
"Who knew the Catholics had gerrymandering and deck-stacking?"

Anyone with two brain cells to rub together?

It's essentially a non-official global theocracy; of course it's going to suffer from the same sorts of political corruption that the United States democratic republic does. Only this is worse, because sort of like a monarchy, they believe that their appointments are divinely-inspired.
 
2013-03-13 12:51:12 PM  
Just flipped through the cable news channels and CNN has one of their brainless trollop chicks and some priest set up on a scaffolding with the Sistine Chapel as a background both making asinine comments. The coverage of this is like the Macy's Thanksgiving Parade, only without the cool balloons.
 
2013-03-13 12:52:11 PM  
I thought I couldn't be eligible, since I was born Catholic, but am married. However, I just remembered the Church doesn't recognize my marriage because we were married outside, by a Unitarian.

So, if there's no pope by the end of today, I'm officially throwing my red hat in the ring. I figure I can be the consensus candidate. Also, I'd really like to rid the whole organization of child molesters and those who would cover up for said molesters.
 
2013-03-13 12:54:21 PM  
I find the whole elector process both intriguing and head-scratching.  The Bible is replete with times where God himself has chosen somebody directly.  Abraham, Moses, Mary, and so on.  You mean to tell me that this omniscient, omnipresent being who's  done this before, is suddenly unable to directly choose his own mouthpiece on Earth to represent his "flock"?  Instead, he farms it off to a bunch of mortals with their own agendas, their own set of closet skeletons, their own set of lobbying pressures, and, following human tendencies, they will start forming groups around the favored candidates and begin selling the "swing" cardinals on their guy.
 
2013-03-13 12:55:58 PM  

Taylor Mental: Just flipped through the cable news channels and CNN has one of their brainless trollop chicks and some priest set up on a scaffolding with the Sistine Chapel as a background both making asinine comments. The coverage of this is like the Macy's Thanksgiving Parade, only without the cool balloons.


The CNN coverage is pretty bad.  They have nothing new to talk about, so they're just prattling on about the bird on the chimney and how likely is it that an American is elected.

I'm rooting for a Jesuit to get elected.  Barring that, seeing heads explode if there's a black Pope would be fun.
 
2013-03-13 12:56:38 PM  

Comic Book Guy: I find the whole elector process both intriguing and head-scratching.  The Bible is replete with times where God himself has chosen somebody directly.  Abraham, Moses, Mary, and so on.  You mean to tell me that this omniscient, omnipresent being who's  done this before, is suddenly unable to directly choose his own mouthpiece on Earth to represent his "flock"?  Instead, he farms it off to a bunch of mortals with their own agendas, their own set of closet skeletons, their own set of lobbying pressures, and, following human tendencies, they will start forming groups around the favored candidates and begin selling the "swing" cardinals on their guy.


I think the idea is, if you're into religion, that they will pray for guidance and God will show them the way, no matter how long it takes. Which would make sense, again if you were into that sort of thing.
 
2013-03-13 01:00:06 PM  

Comic Book Guy: I find the whole elector process both intriguing and head-scratching.  The Bible is replete with times where God himself has chosen somebody directly.  Abraham, Moses, Mary, and so on.  You mean to tell me that this omniscient, omnipresent being who's  done this before, is suddenly unable to directly choose his own mouthpiece on Earth to represent his "flock"?  Instead, he farms it off to a bunch of mortals with their own agendas, their own set of closet skeletons, their own set of lobbying pressures, and, following human tendencies, they will start forming groups around the favored candidates and begin selling the "swing" cardinals on their guy.


More proof that the whole thing is bullshiat.
 
2013-03-13 01:02:25 PM  

Nabb1: If by "reform," you mean major changes in doctrine, I don't think that will happen.  If you mean structural and institutional reform, I am holding out hope that they elect someone with the strength and charisma to clean up the recent corruption scandals and resolve the long-standing issues surrounding the sex abuse cover-ups, and I guess as long as I'm making a wish list,


It's not gonna happen.  That ship sailed centuries ago, with the Reformation.  Prior to that era, the Church was the Church, and it had to find ways to make itself appealing to everyone.  This meant finding ways to equalize their rites with the existing worship systems, to make the shift easier on people; this is why Easter is in the spring at the time of the fertility festivals (and why there's eggs and bunnies, even today), and why Christmas is at the winter solstice (or close enough).

Then the rise of Protestantism created a world where there are hundreds of schismatic sects of Christianity, each staking its own claim.  Catholicism is a big one, but it's just one sect.  They aren't trying to recover the Christians of other sects.  They've written them off, as well as everyone else.  They only people they're concerned with are already Catholics.  As such, they have NO reason to amend their policies or stances.  None.  Change to anything suggests that the Church was wrong about it before, and that's an unacceptable position.

There's no way they'll elect a true reformative Pope.  Because if they do, it'll just create another schism, with the conservatives going one way and electing their own pope and the reformers going the other.  Even when it comes down to the kiddy diddling; the most anyone should hope for is that they'll take a firmer stance on punishing it.  There is no way the Catholic Church will let their priests be punished by secular laws if they can avoid it.

Which is why the Catholic Church is on the way out.  They're on shaky ground, but any move to fortify their standing will just cause greater issues.
 
2013-03-13 01:05:05 PM  

Earguy: In many poor countries, becoming a priest is a socially exalted way for men to escape poverty. Hence, the number of foreign-born priests flooding USA parishes. These men don't necessarily fervently believe the doctrine, instead it's a ticket out. And frankly, many of them alienate Americans. I've seen several who are difficult to understand in their homilies, and they're not especially effective at family counseling and other important tasks, simply because they can't relate, and their English is not fully fluent.


We have this problem in our church (not that I actually go to church anymore). The last time we went we didn't understand the homily at all, the priest was from India, and he would laugh at jokes that we really don't find funny here and can't relate to.
 
2013-03-13 01:05:58 PM  
Is Obvious tag on shore leave?

Wasn't there a huge deal about there even BEING African Cardinals like, 15 years ago? Or even less? I seem to remember that being a big point in Benedict's election "Oh boy, the brothas are gonna get a vote for the first time!"  I'd say that's damn fine progress. Maybe another election (or two) things will start to blend better.

As to why Italy, it's all about the geography.  The Vatican is short staffed during flu season, so they call down to Naples (or wherever) and borrow a bishop to fill in, he gets a name, ta da.  Much harder to fly one in from Vietnam. Sure that's simplistic. Or were we still pretending that the Church doesn't operate on the rules of the real world at all?
 
2013-03-13 01:07:36 PM  

Thorak: Nabb1: If by "reform," you mean major changes in doctrine, I don't think that will happen.  If you mean structural and institutional reform, I am holding out hope that they elect someone with the strength and charisma to clean up the recent corruption scandals and resolve the long-standing issues surrounding the sex abuse cover-ups, and I guess as long as I'm making a wish list,

It's not gonna happen.  That ship sailed centuries ago, with the Reformation.  Prior to that era, the Church was the Church, and it had to find ways to make itself appealing to everyone.  This meant finding ways to equalize their rites with the existing worship systems, to make the shift easier on people; this is why Easter is in the spring at the time of the fertility festivals (and why there's eggs and bunnies, even today), and why Christmas is at the winter solstice (or close enough).

Then the rise of Protestantism created a world where there are hundreds of schismatic sects of Christianity, each staking its own claim.  Catholicism is a big one, but it's just one sect.  They aren't trying to recover the Christians of other sects.  They've written them off, as well as everyone else.  They only people they're concerned with are already Catholics.  As such, they have NO reason to amend their policies or stances.  None.  Change to anything suggests that the Church was wrong about it before, and that's an unacceptable position.

There's no way they'll elect a true reformative Pope.  Because if they do, it'll just create another schism, with the conservatives going one way and electing their own pope and the reformers going the other.  Even when it comes down to the kiddy diddling; the most anyone should hope for is that they'll take a firmer stance on punishing it.  There is no way the Catholic Church will let their priests be punished by secular laws if they can avoid it.

Which is why the Catholic Church is on the way out.  They're on shaky ground, but any move to fortify their standing wi ...


All you have to do is follow the money when it comes to everything the RCC does.

People think the reformation was over doctrine... not really, it was about the RCC squeezing every dime they could out of the poor by charging money for every 'service' the church performed... then Leo 'franchized' out indulgences so he could build St. Peters bacillica, and that was pretty much the last straw.
 
2013-03-13 01:08:45 PM  

Thorak: Nabb1: If by "reform," you mean major changes in doctrine, I don't think that will happen.  If you mean structural and institutional reform, I am holding out hope that they elect someone with the strength and charisma to clean up the recent corruption scandals and resolve the long-standing issues surrounding the sex abuse cover-ups, and I guess as long as I'm making a wish list,

It's not gonna happen.  That ship sailed centuries ago, with the Reformation.  Prior to that era, the Church was the Church, and it had to find ways to make itself appealing to everyone.  This meant finding ways to equalize their rites with the existing worship systems, to make the shift easier on people; this is why Easter is in the spring at the time of the fertility festivals (and why there's eggs and bunnies, even today), and why Christmas is at the winter solstice (or close enough).

Then the rise of Protestantism created a world where there are hundreds of schismatic sects of Christianity, each staking its own claim.  Catholicism is a big one, but it's just one sect.  They aren't trying to recover the Christians of other sects.  They've written them off, as well as everyone else.  They only people they're concerned with are already Catholics.  As such, they have NO reason to amend their policies or stances.  None.  Change to anything suggests that the Church was wrong about it before, and that's an unacceptable position.

There's no way they'll elect a true reformative Pope.  Because if they do, it'll just create another schism, with the conservatives going one way and electing their own pope and the reformers going the other.  Even when it comes down to the kiddy diddling; the most anyone should hope for is that they'll take a firmer stance on punishing it.  There is no way the Catholic Church will let their priests be punished by secular laws if they can avoid it.

Which is why the Catholic Church is on the way out.  They're on shaky ground, but any move to fortify their standing wi ...


I wouldn't be surprised if we see a Vatican III happening in the next 10-15 years.  At the very least, they'll probably end up allowing women to have a more active role in the church just to try and increase the number of clergy.
 
2013-03-13 01:14:41 PM  

nekom: Comic Book Guy: I find the whole elector process both intriguing and head-scratching.  The Bible is replete with times where God himself has chosen somebody directly.  Abraham, Moses, Mary, and so on.  You mean to tell me that this omniscient, omnipresent being who's  done this before, is suddenly unable to directly choose his own mouthpiece on Earth to represent his "flock"?  Instead, he farms it off to a bunch of mortals with their own agendas, their own set of closet skeletons, their own set of lobbying pressures, and, following human tendencies, they will start forming groups around the favored candidates and begin selling the "swing" cardinals on their guy.

I think the idea is, if you're into religion, that they will pray for guidance and God will show them the way, no matter how long it takes. Which would make sense, again if you were into that sort of thing.



Which is the conclusion I came to as well, and that's the most blatant case of confirmation bias I've ever seen.  I mean, this guy is INFALLIBLE.  If he issues a official doctrinal statement, GOD HIMSELF must obey.  (The inverse has never been proven, since it seems that since the burning bush God isn't all that chatty anymore).  You've got all the guys locked in a room, how hard can it be to do a 5 second possession, have someone point to someone else, scream "THAT ASSHOLE!  I WANT HIM!" in Latin or Sanskrit or Aramaic or whatever dead language God speaks these days, and that's that?

Or, you know, the whole thing is and has been a human construct from the beginning, with overlapping layers of bureaucracy and "ritual" for centuries.  I'm sure there's a brand of razor that explains this phenomenon...
 
2013-03-13 01:21:25 PM  

Comic Book Guy: I find the whole elector process both intriguing and head-scratching.  The Bible is replete with times where God himself has chosen somebody directly.  Abraham, Moses, Mary, and so on.  You mean to tell me that this omniscient, omnipresent being who's  done this before, is suddenly unable to directly choose his own mouthpiece on Earth to represent his "flock"?  Instead, he farms it off to a bunch of mortals with their own agendas, their own set of closet skeletons, their own set of lobbying pressures, and, following human tendencies, they will start forming groups around the favored candidates and begin selling the "swing" cardinals on their guy.


Most established religions seem to take steps so to prevent a direct apointment from on high, and instead keeps the mouthpieces to those indoctrinated in the way things work and will stay the course. Effectively preventing a status/rules update from the "one true god"/FSM/etc.
 
2013-03-13 01:24:18 PM  

Comic Book Guy:
Or, you know, the whole thing is and has been a human construct from the beginning, with overlapping layers of bureaucracy and "ritual" for centuries.  I'm sure there's a brand of razor that explains this phenomenon...


The mass realization of that is probably a big factor in the advent of protestant movements. Hell, I know a few VERY devout Catholics who realize it's just a popularity contest. Actually, if they allowed Popes to marry, all you have to do is trace the lineage of Peter (probably impossible now, but in his day they could have) and made the position hereditary, that would at least make some sense in the monarchist "Mandate of God" sort of a way.
 
2013-03-13 01:30:22 PM  

nekom: Comic Book Guy:
Or, you know, the whole thing is and has been a human construct from the beginning, with overlapping layers of bureaucracy and "ritual" for centuries.  I'm sure there's a brand of razor that explains this phenomenon...

The mass realization of that is probably a big factor in the advent of protestant movements. Hell, I know a few VERY devout Catholics who realize it's just a popularity contest. Actually, if they allowed Popes to marry, all you have to do is trace the lineage of Peter (probably impossible now, but in his day they could have) and made the position hereditary, that would at least make some sense in the monarchist "Mandate of God" sort of a way.


Most protestants interpret that single verse (about Peter being the rock of the church) very differently than Catholics do (Protestants say that Peters confession was the rock, not peter himself)... then there is the troubling thing that Peter (or his confession) only appears in 1 of 4 gospels.. so it must not have been that important to the Holy Spirit (which inspired scripture.... did he make omissions?).

Scholars don't even know for sure who the second Pope was and early church historians have many different orders (could be Linus, Cletus or Clement)...

Then the fact that Jesus was Jewish.. and so were all the apostles.. and the fact that the Old Testament pronounces an everlasting curse on any country that would conquor and occupy Israel (which the Roman Empire did).. it amazes me that people think that the God of the OT would set up his church in the heart of enemy (and cursed) territory.

But than again, as with most things catholic.. common sense and logic don't seem to apply.
 
2013-03-13 01:36:05 PM  
The thing about cardinals is; basically anybody who is friendly with the pope can become a cardinal.

Technically; any Roman Catholic man could be a cardinal or pope; they just have to be elected, although Conclave hasn't reached outside of itself in many many years.

/ I, technically, have a chance to be pope. I also have the chance to be struck by lightning while riding a unicycle, on top of a pogo stick, then getting hit by a runaway train on the 29th of February.
 
2013-03-13 01:42:02 PM  

Hack Patooey: I offended a few FB friends today.  One of them posted about the Conclave, and a bunch of her friends started on about them doing gods work, blah blah blah.  I came back with "well, when you get right down to it, its a popularity election, like any other, isn't it?  Its not like they sit around until one of them glows, and then say "God chose him".


We don't have to believe what they believe, but there's no need to be a dick about it.
 
2013-03-13 01:45:55 PM  

dentalhilljack: Hack Patooey: I offended a few FB friends today.  One of them posted about the Conclave, and a bunch of her friends started on about them doing gods work, blah blah blah.  I came back with "well, when you get right down to it, its a popularity election, like any other, isn't it?  Its not like they sit around until one of them glows, and then say "God chose him".

We don't have to believe what they believe, but there's no need to be a dick about it.


farm3.staticflickr.com
 
2013-03-13 01:46:44 PM  

dwrash: nekom: Comic Book Guy:
Or, you know, the whole thing is and has been a human construct from the beginning, with overlapping layers of bureaucracy and "ritual" for centuries.  I'm sure there's a brand of razor that explains this phenomenon...

The mass realization of that is probably a big factor in the advent of protestant movements. Hell, I know a few VERY devout Catholics who realize it's just a popularity contest. Actually, if they allowed Popes to marry, all you have to do is trace the lineage of Peter (probably impossible now, but in his day they could have) and made the position hereditary, that would at least make some sense in the monarchist "Mandate of God" sort of a way.

Most protestants interpret that single verse (about Peter being the rock of the church) very differently than Catholics do (Protestants say that Peters confession was the rock, not peter himself)... then there is the troubling thing that Peter (or his confession) only appears in 1 of 4 gospels.. so it must not have been that important to the Holy Spirit (which inspired scripture.... did he make omissions?).

Scholars don't even know for sure who the second Pope was and early church historians have many different orders (could be Linus, Cletus or Clement)...

Then the fact that Jesus was Jewish.. and so were all the apostles.. and the fact that the Old Testament pronounces an everlasting curse on any country that would conquor and occupy Israel (which the Roman Empire did).. it amazes me that people think that the God of the OT would set up his church in the heart of enemy (and cursed) territory.

But than again, as with most things catholic.. common sense and logic don't seem to apply.


wait, the Cathloc Church is not the curse???
Destroying their belief system and replacing it with his own (or conquring the conqurers) seems like curse on the romans to me.
 
2013-03-13 01:47:01 PM  

iheartscotch: The thing about cardinals is; basically anybody who is friendly with the pope can become a cardinal.

Technically; any Roman Catholic man could be a cardinal or pope; they just have to be elected, although Conclave hasn't reached outside of itself in many many years.

/ I, technically, have a chance to be pope. I also have the chance to be struck by lightning while riding a unicycle, on top of a pogo stick, then getting hit by a runaway train on the 29th of February.


i.qkme.me

I think it would be great if someone outside of the Cardinals got elected.  Just pick some random priest/monk that's never been involved in the Church's upper management.
 
2013-03-13 01:49:20 PM  

dentalhilljack: Hack Patooey: I offended a few FB friends today.  One of them posted about the Conclave, and a bunch of her friends started on about them doing gods work, blah blah blah.  I came back with "well, when you get right down to it, its a popularity election, like any other, isn't it?  Its not like they sit around until one of them glows, and then say "God chose him".

We don't have to believe what they believe, but there's no need to be a dick about it.


You guys are forgetting about the times that some third party stormed the Sistine chapel, and demanded that they pick a certian candidate. Good times, good times.

Or the times when the various rulers influenced their cardinals to elect a certain candidate. Those were good times too.

Or the times when a ruler imprisoned the pope and ruled how they chose.

Ect, ect
 
2013-03-13 01:57:56 PM  

NeoCortex42: iheartscotch: The thing about cardinals is; basically anybody who is friendly with the pope can become a cardinal.

Technically; any Roman Catholic man could be a cardinal or pope; they just have to be elected, although Conclave hasn't reached outside of itself in many many years.

/ I, technically, have a chance to be pope. I also have the chance to be struck by lightning while riding a unicycle, on top of a pogo stick, then getting hit by a runaway train on the 29th of February.



I think it would be great if someone outside of the Cardinals got elected.  Just pick some random priest/monk that's never been involved in the Church's upper management.


That's happened before; it didn't end well. You need experience to run an orginization like the Roman Catholic church.

I'm almost guaranteeing an Italian pope at this point; the majority of popes have been Italian. The people of Italy will probably throw a fit if another foreigner assends to the chair of St. Peter.

/ there's also a lot of politics that goes into a pope selection; imagine the dems vs. the GOP, but on steroids
 
2013-03-13 02:08:02 PM  
And we have white smoke!
 
2013-03-13 02:19:39 PM  
White smoke!
 
2013-03-13 02:57:45 PM  

Stavr0: White smoke!


GREAT!!!   Now we, and CNN and the rest, can get back to the Kardashians.
 
2013-03-13 03:16:33 PM  
i269.photobucket.com
 
2013-03-13 06:02:05 PM  
One of the popes under consideration said he didn't give a shiat about 47% of the Catholics.
 
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