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(Yahoo)   Farewell Ewald-Heinrich von Kleist, he was the last surviving member of the plot to kill Hitler   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 111
    More: Hero, Ewald-Heinrich von Kleist, Hitler, local church, suicide vest, Prussian, Fuhrer  
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4229 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Mar 2013 at 9:28 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-03-12 09:23:27 PM  
I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.
 
2013-03-12 09:29:26 PM  
and because he failed millions of Jews died... RIP, ass hat...
 
2013-03-12 09:32:05 PM  
Needs more 'the'?
 
2013-03-12 09:32:25 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.


Exactly.  If memory serves correct, it was the very head of the Nazi party that ended up killing Hitler.  That's the only dude who deserves praise and recognition.
 
2013-03-12 09:32:57 PM  
I think I'm having the stroke
 
2013-03-12 09:34:02 PM  
Hero?  No. He failed!  f*cking [FAIL] tag for that loser!!
 
2013-03-12 09:34:27 PM  
The headline the has a error.
 
2013-03-12 09:35:44 PM  
GD table leg.
 
2013-03-12 09:37:42 PM  
img850.imageshack.us

GO HOME, THE, YOU ARE DRUNK.
 
2013-03-12 09:38:17 PM  
Phooey, I liked the other headline better: "The most inspiring obituary of a suicide bomber you'll read all day"
 
2013-03-12 09:38:54 PM  

orclover: The headline the has a error.


the headline has the error
images1.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-03-12 09:39:07 PM  
This headline is literally a worse atrocity against mankind than the Holocaust.
 
2013-03-12 09:39:22 PM  
Sweet troll bait...
 
2013-03-12 09:39:35 PM  
Ruhe in Frieden, Herr Fast-getötet-Hitler-Mann.
 
2013-03-12 09:40:19 PM  
Wow, all the grammar Nazis in this thread.
 
2013-03-12 09:42:12 PM  
Colonel Chestbridge wouldn't have liked him...

25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-03-12 09:42:30 PM  
Last survivor of plot to kill Hitler dies at 90


So ... Hitler finally won?
 
2013-03-12 09:43:05 PM  
The too bad the plot failed miserably.

/The
 
2013-03-12 09:43:07 PM  
Not a hero, none of the plotters were.

They wanted to kill Hitler so they could talk the Americans, Commonwealth, UK and France into attacking the Soviet Union.

The Holocaust would keep going, the killing of civilians in Poland, the Ukraine, and Greater Germany would keep going.

But the German military leaders, they would get saved.
 
2013-03-12 09:43:09 PM  
Who died?
farm2.staticflickr.com
 
2013-03-12 09:43:33 PM  
Hitler successfully killed Hitler so this guy is literally a worse monster than Hitler.
 
2013-03-12 09:45:50 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.


You did not actually read the article did you.    While that is certainly true of some of them, it is not the case here.
 
2013-03-12 09:45:51 PM  
I don't really understand the plaudits for these people. Yes, they tried to kill Hitler. In 1944. The damage was already done. The only reason they tried to kill him was that Germany was losing the war. Not the evil, not the genocide, not the racism - they turned on him because they were losing. That's not that honorable.
 
2013-03-12 09:46:10 PM  

MrHappyRotter: Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.

Exactly.  If memory serves correct, it was the very head of the Nazi party that ended up killing Hitler.  That's the only dude who deserves praise and recognition.


Ich sehe, was Sie dort taten
 
2013-03-12 09:47:06 PM  

AsprinBurn: Last survivor of plot to kill Hitler dies at 90


So ... Hitler finally won?


Hitler realized if you want something done right you have to do it yourself.
 
2013-03-12 09:47:08 PM  
You know who ELSE had lousy grammar?
 
2013-03-12 09:48:14 PM  
The real war criminal was Hitler's stylist.
 
2013-03-12 09:48:47 PM  
lh5.googleusercontent.com

"Kleist? Who is Kleist?"
 
2013-03-12 09:49:42 PM  

MrHappyRotter: Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.

Exactly.  If memory serves correct, it was the very head of the Nazi party that ended up killing Hitler.  That's the only dude who deserves praise and recognition.


If I understand you correctly, say what you like about Hitler, but at least Hitler killed Hitler?
 
2013-03-12 09:50:51 PM  

MrHappyRotter: The real war criminal was Hitler's stylist.


www.pleated-jeans.com

/if they won this would have been chic
//the
 
2013-03-12 09:51:20 PM  
Johann Gambolputty de von Ausfern- schplenden- schlitter- crasscrenbon- fried- digger- dingle- dangle- dongle- dungle- burstein- von- knacker- thrasher- apple- banger- horowitz- ticolensic- grander- knotty- spelltinkle- grandlich- grumblemeyer- spelterwasser- kurstlich- himbleeisen- bahnwagen- gutenabend- bitte- ein- nürnburger- bratwustle- gerspurten- mitz- weimache- luber- hundsfut- gumberaber- shönedanker- kalbsfleisch- mittler- aucher von Hautkopft of Ulm?

i2.ytimg.com
 
2013-03-12 09:51:59 PM  
If subby had said 'The plot', it would be wrong, since there were many. More than one. Subby's headline is correct, grammatically and otherwise.
 
2013-03-12 09:56:57 PM  
I really don't have anything to add to the thread, but I just finished a biography of Manstein and felt I should post.
 
2013-03-12 09:58:16 PM  

miniflea: I really don't have anything to add to the thread, but I just finished a biography of Manstein and felt I should post.


Fascinating.  Do go on.
 
2013-03-12 10:00:39 PM  
I can see somebody needs to watch 'Valkyrie' again, and maybe this time spend a little less time staring into Tom Cruise' cold, lifeless eyes.
 
2013-03-12 10:00:43 PM  

miniflea: I really don't have anything to add to the thread, but I just finished a biography of Manstein and felt I should post.


You read an entire biography of him and didn't realize its von Manstein? You need the "von".
 
2013-03-12 10:02:19 PM  
I thought most support for the nazi's came from the lower and middle classes? wasn't himmler a chicken farmer or something? definitely not the german military junker class
 
2013-03-12 10:03:39 PM  

orclover: The headline the has a error.


actually, the plot the means "die hitler die" in german

i274.photobucket.com
 
2013-03-12 10:04:32 PM  
25.media.tumblr.com

Its German for "The plot the"
 
2013-03-12 10:04:36 PM  
seen a boatload of Hitler documentaries. that boy cheated death all throughout his adult life. some might be inclined to think he made a deal with a devil.
 
2013-03-12 10:05:15 PM  

bukketmaster: orclover: The headline the has a error.

actually, the plot the means "die hitler die" in german

[i274.photobucket.com image 180x120]


Dammit, less than 30 seconds.
 
2013-03-12 10:06:24 PM  

Omahawg: I thought most support for the nazi's came from the lower and middle classes? wasn't himmler a chicken farmer or something? definitely not the german military junker class


Depends when you're talking about. When they came to power? Correct. But Hitler purged the army of pretty much everyone who wasn't loyal. The most famous of these incidents is The Night of Long Knives. By the time WWII actually started, the military was pretty damn loyal.
 
2013-03-12 10:06:53 PM  
Plot in one hand, shiat in the other, see which fills up first.
 
2013-03-12 10:08:36 PM  

Omahawg: wasn't himmler a chicken farmer


Probably.  Oh farmer. Yeah, that too, I guess.
 
2013-03-12 10:12:13 PM  

djkutch: MrHappyRotter: Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.

Exactly.  If memory serves correct, it was the very head of the Nazi party that ended up killing Hitler.  That's the only dude who deserves praise and recognition.

If I understand you correctly, say what you like about Hitler, but at least Hitler killed Hitler?


Hey - at least he had an ethos.
 
2013-03-12 10:13:01 PM  
Shut up, Hitler!
 
2013-03-12 10:16:02 PM  

sprag: Needs more 'the'?


The Hitler?
 
2013-03-12 10:17:44 PM  

DamnYankees: Omahawg: I thought most support for the nazi's came from the lower and middle classes? wasn't himmler a chicken farmer or something? definitely not the german military junker class

Depends when you're talking about. When they came to power? Correct. But Hitler purged the army of pretty much everyone who wasn't loyal. The most famous of these incidents is The Night of Long Knives. By the time WWII actually started, the military was pretty damn loyal.


Yup, especially after France was a cake walk.  The military only started to waver after the war against the Soviets started to fall apart.  The few officers who were against Hitler from Day 1 were either goaded into killing themselves or packed off to China to train the KMT.  After Hitler sided with the Japanese, those officers were called back and fobbed off to bullshiat jobs since their time in China had taken them out of circulation long enough for Hitler to neutralize whatever power they had.
 
2013-03-12 10:18:08 PM  
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-03-12 10:18:45 PM  
In regard to the above, that is officers who were too powerful to have the SA just whack.
 
2013-03-12 10:20:21 PM  

DamnYankees: miniflea: I really don't have anything to add to the thread, but I just finished a biography of Manstein and felt I should post.

You read an entire biography of him and didn't realize its von Manstein? You need the "von".


Perhaps you should have a word with the book's spine.  Or perhaps I don't believe he was telling the truth when he claimed to be completely ignorant of einsatzgruppen activity while he was in command of 11th Army and decided to offend his, and apparently yours, delicate German sensibilities.

Or maybe I don't need the "von" smartass.
 
2013-03-12 10:21:11 PM  

austin_millbarge: sprag: Needs more 'the'?

The Hitler?


I'd say so.  Adolf was "The Hitler" in the same way that Trump is "The Donald", right?
 
2013-03-12 10:22:11 PM  

miniflea: Or perhaps I don't believe he was telling the truth when he claimed to be completely ignorant of einsatzgruppen activity while he was in command of 11th Army and decided to offend his, and apparently yours, delicate German sensibilities.


First of all, of course I don't believe him. Why the hell would I believe him? Are you actually getting upset that I'm not showing sufficient respect to a Nazi general?

And yes, you need the von. It's part of his name. Like Leonardo DiCaprio. You can't call him "Caprio".
 
2013-03-12 10:22:36 PM  
RIP

www.film.com
 
2013-03-12 10:34:28 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.


le trahisson est une question de dates

/shrugs shoulders.
 
2013-03-12 10:41:35 PM  
Hector Remarkable:
I can see  somebody needs to watch 'Valkyrie' again, and maybe this time spend a little less time staring into Tom Cruise' cold, lifeless eyes.


You see lifeless eyes.  I see someone who cleared OT Level VIII.
 
2013-03-12 10:53:49 PM  

xanadian: Hero?  No. He failed!  f*cking [FAIL] tag for that loser!!

-=-
Yeah, what he said.
 
2013-03-12 10:58:00 PM  
I was wondering how he stayed alive at all but the guy did go to a concentration camp . Well, till they pulled him out to go to some front or other the article wasn't clear on that.
 
2013-03-12 11:01:51 PM  
There's a really interesting doco called "The Wehrmacht" that I saw recently. Five parts, they're on youtube, about the Wehrmacht's role in Nazi Germany. I thought it might be a bit dumbed down, but it was really good. Tells about how they tried to maintain independence from the Nazis, and how they ended up being complicit in SS-led atrocities. It talks about some of the lead figures that Hitler had removed, the oath to the Fuhrer himself (which was actually intended to secure their autonomy). Check it out.

Also, I watched Come and See late last night. Jesus Christ. Anyone else seen that?
 
2013-03-12 11:06:11 PM  

Omahawg: I thought most support for the nazi's came from the lower and middle classes? wasn't himmler a chicken farmer or something? definitely not the german military junker class


Hermann Göring takes a shot of morphine, changes his uniform, and laughs at this post
 
2013-03-12 11:11:46 PM  

DamnYankees: Omahawg: I thought most support for the nazi's came from the lower and middle classes? wasn't himmler a chicken farmer or something? definitely not the german military junker class

Depends when you're talking about. When they came to power? Correct. But Hitler purged the army of pretty much everyone who wasn't loyal. The most famous of these incidents is The Night of Long Knives. By the time WWII actually started, the military was pretty damn loyal.



The 'night of the long knives' was when Hitler initially secured the trust of the military, by destroying the Sturmabteilung (SA), the paramilitary brownshirts that Hitler used as intimidation stormtroopers.  Hitler never had the full trust of the military, and actually despised the Prussian officer corps which composed the upper echelons of the general staff.The whole 'Von so-and-so' is pretty much the equivalent of 'Lord so-and-so' and Hitler was little more than a street thug.

Hitler came to power by using a paramilitary political organization (the SA) which mixed political propaganda with simple thuggery, like beating up jews or communists on the streets.However, in order to maintain power, he had to secure the approval of the military--who were actually extremely professional soldiers for a variety of reasons mostly dating back to the armistice of WW1--and who pretty much to a man despised the criminal brownshirts.In order to get legitimacy and the control of the military, the SA had to go.

Afterwards, Hitler never trusted the military, and most of the general staff loathed him--not necessarily for political reasons, but probably mostly that the man was a strategic buffoon who constantly interfered with his own army to detrimental effect.Most of the reverses suffered by the Wehrmacht were due to Hitler's' insistence that he knew strategy better than his generals; he would demand that millions of German troops stand and fight in hopeless situations, and sack any generals who dared to argue with him.As the war progressed, and the professionalism of the generals was dragged in the mud by someone they considered to be little more than a demagogue, and it's probably for this reason above all that so many of them were willing to risk everything in order to see him gone.

Whether or not they actually expected the west to join them in the fight against the Soviets is arguable, but it does demonstrate the basic political naivety of most of the generals; the best of them claimed ignorance of the atrocities committed by the regime they were fighting for, or simply, like Rommel-the general renowned for a mostly 'clean' war in north Africa-claimed to be simple solders who did not get involved in 'politics' even after hearing about the death camps.

Heroes?Anyone who puts their life on the line to kick a monster off the planet gets a gold star in my book, but they spent far too long taking orders from a murderer to be anything other than complicit in the crimes done in their name.

/I am not a real historian, but I did spend the night in a PanzerKampfWagen IV
 
2013-03-12 11:11:52 PM  

spamdog: There's a really interesting doco called "The Wehrmacht" that I saw recently. Five parts, they're on youtube, about the Wehrmacht's role in Nazi Germany. I thought it might be a bit dumbed down, but it was really good. Tells about how they tried to maintain independence from the Nazis, and how they ended up being complicit in SS-led atrocities. It talks about some of the lead figures that Hitler had removed, the oath to the Fuhrer himself (which was actually intended to secure their autonomy). Check it out.

Also, I watched Come and See late last night. Jesus Christ. Anyone else seen that?

the



Reminds me of the Air Force Drone pilots earning medals for blowing up wedding parties in Pakistan. They joined to defend our country, but some how the job got perverted into a long distance executor of civilians.
 
2013-03-12 11:16:12 PM  
Questionable motivation aside, it might've been pretty cool if the plot had suceeded, if only to rob Hitler of the ultimate coward's death.
 
2013-03-12 11:18:27 PM  

DamnYankees: miniflea: Or perhaps I don't believe he was telling the truth when he claimed to be completely ignorant of einsatzgruppen activity while he was in command of 11th Army and decided to offend his, and apparently yours, delicate German sensibilities.

First of all, of course I don't believe him. Why the hell would I believe him? Are you actually getting upset that I'm not showing sufficient respect to a Nazi general?

And yes, you need the von. It's part of his name. Like Leonardo DiCaprio. You can't call him "Caprio".


So we are wrong for calling it the Manstein Plan?

I think you might be able to let this one go. I'm not sure the Internet needs this particular debate.
 
2013-03-12 11:18:33 PM  
Gute Nacht, lüstig Mann.

Er war ein Held.
 
2013-03-12 11:20:47 PM  

djkutch: MrHappyRotter: Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.

Exactly.  If memory serves correct, it was the very head of the Nazi party that ended up killing Hitler.  That's the only dude who deserves praise and recognition.

If I understand you correctly, say what you like about Hitler, but at least Hitler killed Hitler?


Yeah, but he ALSO killed the guy who killed Hitler, so it's a wash.
 
2013-03-12 11:22:12 PM  

spamdog: Come and See


Idi o smotri? That sad Russian made piece about the bloodthirsty savage Nazis? If that's what you're talking about. Dark farking film. DARK.

Watch 'Der Untergang'. It'll haunt you too.
 
2013-03-12 11:23:11 PM  
Despite his family's opposition to the Nazis, younger von Kleist joined the German army in 1940, and was wounded in 1943 in fighting on the Eastern Front.

Von Kleist himself was arrested, questioned at length by the Gestapo, and sent to a concentration camp, but then inexplicably let go and returned to combat duty.


i182.photobucket.com
 
2013-03-12 11:27:49 PM  
If you have not seen "Downfall" put it on your list.  The last days in Hitler's bunker in harrowing detail.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0363163/

How a mother could do that to her babies......
 
2013-03-12 11:28:21 PM  

SirEattonHogg: Hector Remarkable:
I can see  somebody needs to watch 'Valkyrie' again, and maybe this time spend a little less time staring into Tom Cruise' cold, lifeless eyes.


You see lifeless eyes.  I see someone who cleared OT Level VIII.


That should have been 'cold, lifeless, eye'. I was referring to the patch. Please don't sue me.
I hear that that L. Ron Dublin has some great ideas, and you people should definitely be allowed to marry.
 
2013-03-12 11:30:56 PM  
t.qkme.me
 
2013-03-12 11:35:20 PM  
It would probably be helpful if folks criticizing this man were aware that his family was trying to stop Hitler even before the war began.  This family was not devoted to Hitler until he started losing, these guys were against Hitler before it was cool.

They deserve the hero tag for that alone.

The fact that he was willing to strap a suicide vest on and give a genocidal maniac a chest bump counts for a lot in the courage department, folks.  Especially given that a lot of the basement warriors around here couldn't be bothered to walk down the street to check out a burglar alarm.
 
2013-03-12 11:37:56 PM  

wejash: It would probably be helpful if folks criticizing this man were aware that his family was trying to stop Hitler even before the war began.  This family was not devoted to Hitler until he started losing, these guys were against Hitler before it was cool.

They deserve the hero tag for that alone.

The fact that he was willing to strap a suicide vest on and give a genocidal maniac a chest bump counts for a lot in the courage department, folks.  Especially given that a lot of the basement warriors around here couldn't be bothered to walk down the street to check out a burglar alarm.


Points for perspective.
 
2013-03-12 11:48:45 PM  
Is this where we all say how the hero tag is misused?
 
2013-03-12 11:48:57 PM  
I kinda enjoyed Valkyrie.  :-|
 
2013-03-12 11:55:28 PM  
tangentially related, I just booked a trip to Berlin this summer. Any things that are a must-see? I'm interested in history and art.
 
2013-03-12 11:58:01 PM  

El Brujo: tangentially related, I just booked a trip to Berlin this summer. Any things that are a must-see? I'm interested in history and art.





Where boys meet men.
 
2013-03-12 11:59:19 PM  
You know who else had a plot to kill Hitler?
 
2013-03-13 12:07:04 AM  
isleofran.com

is that like being a surviving kamikaze pilot
 
2013-03-13 12:08:33 AM  

Acharne: El Brujo: tangentially related, I just booked a trip to Berlin this summer. Any things that are a must-see? I'm interested in history and art.

Where boys meet men.


Oh, tabasco bar?  Yeah, I'll be there for sure.  Been a while since I've sucked cock.
 
2013-03-13 12:08:44 AM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.


Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.


THIS.

The plots to kill Hitler by German military officers wasn't motivated by a belief that Germany's racial policies were wrong and immoral, but simply that Hitler's terrible management of the war was making defeat a sure thing. These guys wanted to win the war, not bring an end to the concentration camps.
 
2013-03-13 12:15:04 AM  

thornhill: Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.

Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.

THIS.

The plots to kill Hitler by German military officers wasn't motivated by a belief that Germany's racial policies were wrong and immoral, but simply that Hitler's terrible management of the war was making defeat a sure thing. These guys wanted to win the war, not bring an end to the concentration camps.



Still wish they had had shot him down, don't you?  I don't know how it would have affected the outcome, but for him to die in fear rather then complaisance..he got off easy.  Him in  a french maid costume, with a pineapple being shoved up his ass is an image he deserves.
 
2013-03-13 12:16:42 AM  
s10.postimage.org

Dana Andrews said prunes gave him the runes, and passing them used lots of skills,
 
2013-03-13 12:20:51 AM  
There were Germans who did not belong to the Nazi party.

The Wehrmacht officer who devised the plan to drive through the Ardennes and divide the French and British armies was not a member of the Nazi party. He stood up to Hitler often enough that he spent the last part of the war sitting at home. The best general Hitler had and he was put out to pasture for not being a loyal Nazi.

The head of the Abwehr was not a Nazi party member. He was part of Valkyrie. The SS stripped him naked then hanged him with piano wire, letting him come close to death then letting down so he could recover. They spent over a half an hour hoisting him up and down several times.

It is not fair to say that people who didn't come out openly against Hitler deserve no thanks for whatever attempt they made at resistance. The whole Allied bombing strategy against Germany was based on the belief that bombing cities would make the German populace rise up against Hitler. In a totalitarian state, particularly one armed with IBM card machines, that doesn't work. We could have leveled all of Germany and the populace would still be afraid of being executed for even the smallest of slights against the Party.
 
2013-03-13 12:21:20 AM  

thornhill: Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.

Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.

THIS.

The plots to kill Hitler by German military officers wasn't motivated by a belief that Germany's racial policies were wrong and immoral, but simply that Hitler's terrible management of the war was making defeat a sure thing. These guys wanted to win the war, not bring an end to the concentration camps.


I thought it was all the banjo pickin'

cdn.ebaumsworld.com
 
2013-03-13 12:25:53 AM  

freetomato: thornhill: Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.

Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.

THIS.

The plots to kill Hitler by German military officers wasn't motivated by a belief that Germany's racial policies were wrong and immoral, but simply that Hitler's terrible management of the war was making defeat a sure thing. These guys wanted to win the war, not bring an end to the concentration camps.


Still wish they had had shot him down, don't you?  I don't know how it would have affected the outcome, but for him to die in fear rather then complaisance..he got off easy.  Him in  a french maid costume, with a pineapple being shoved up his ass is an image he deserves.


Little Nickywas worse than the Holocaust.
 
2013-03-13 12:28:17 AM  
I'll give the kid a pass on the Hero tag. He was 18 when he joined in 1940. Age 18 allows for many stupid decisions. Maybe he had to join. I don't know. By the time hew was 21 he volunteered for a suicide mission to kill Hitler ans was involved in the second plot when he was 22. I mean I farked up bad in those ages. So in a matter of four years he was willing to give his life to correct a wrong. Too bad there weren't more like him.
 
2013-03-13 12:28:59 AM  

freetomato: thornhill: Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.

Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.

THIS.

The plots to kill Hitler by German military officers wasn't motivated by a belief that Germany's racial policies were wrong and immoral, but simply that Hitler's terrible management of the war was making defeat a sure thing. These guys wanted to win the war, not bring an end to the concentration camps.


Still wish they had had shot him down, don't you?  I don't know how it would have affected the outcome, but for him to die in fear rather then complaisance..he got off easy.  Him in  a french maid costume, with a pineapple being shoved up his ass is an image he deserves.


Obviously, but this guy doesn't deserve the hero tag for wanting to kill Hitler so that the Germany could better wage WWII (or used having killed Hitler to negotiate a more favorable surrender for himself personally) .
 
2013-03-13 12:34:13 AM  

thornhill: freetomato: thornhill: Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.

Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.

THIS.

The plots to kill Hitler by German military officers wasn't motivated by a belief that Germany's racial policies were wrong and immoral, but simply that Hitler's terrible management of the war was making defeat a sure thing. These guys wanted to win the war, not bring an end to the concentration camps.


Still wish they had had shot him down, don't you?  I don't know how it would have affected the outcome, but for him to die in fear rather then complaisance..he got off easy.  Him in  a french maid costume, with a pineapple being shoved up his ass is an image he deserves.

Obviously, but this guy doesn't deserve the hero tag for wanting to kill Hitler so that the Germany could better wage WWII (or used having killed Hitler to negotiate a more favorable surren ...


He didn't. As others in this thread have pointed out after reading the article, this guy wasn't some general or other officer looking for a way to survive after Germany's inevitable defeat. Given that he agreed to wear a suicide bomb-vest and detonate it while standing next to Hitler sort of tosses the 'favorable surrender' theory out the window as well. I suppose he could have been hoping that the Allies and the Soviets would refrain from shooting the little pieces of his body into smaller pieces, but given the information we have, I'd say that he appeared to be a kid who knew what was being done in the name of Hitler and Germany was wrong and was willing to die to correct it. It makes him a hero, whether or not the plan ever came to fruition.
 
2013-03-13 12:46:59 AM  
Way to fark it up, Ewald.
 
2013-03-13 12:52:33 AM  

Captain James T. Smirk: He didn't. As others in this thread have pointed out after reading the article, this guy wasn't some general or other officer looking for a way to survive after Germany's inevitable defeat. Given that he agreed to wear a suicide bomb-vest and detonate it while standing next to Hitler sort of tosses the 'favorable surrender' theory out the window as well. I suppose he could have been hoping that the Allies and the Soviets would refrain from shooting the little pieces of his body into smaller pieces, but given the information we have, I'd say that he appeared to be a kid who knew what was being done in the name of Hitler and Germany was wrong and was willing to die to correct it. It makes him a hero, whether or not the plan ever came to fruition.


Oh please. He was a 22 year-old kid convinced to be a suicide bomber by his dad and high ranking German military officers. No different than what is done with modern day suicide bombers. I doubt he knew what he was doing or why.

If anything, this all sheds a much worse light on the so called German resistance. The higher ranking members of the military would have had no problems getting close to Hitler and killing him with a suicide bomb. Obviously Claus von Stauffenberg had the opportunity but he didn't want to die with the bomb. None of them did, which is why they found a dumb kid willing enough to be their sacrificial lamb.
 
2013-03-13 12:53:30 AM  

Captain James T. Smirk: Little Nicky was worse than the Holocaust.


6 + million Jews/social outcasts might disagree. But, hey, who are they to disagree?
 
2013-03-13 12:55:53 AM  
Captain James T. Smirk:

Still wish they had had shot him down, don't you?  I don't know how it would have affected the outcome, but for him to die in fear rather then complaisance..he got off easy.  Him in  a french maid costume, with a pineapple being shoved up his ass is an image he deserves.

Little Nickywas worse than the Holocaust.


And yet, hardly the worse Adam Sandler movie.
 
2013-03-13 01:09:28 AM  

freetomato: thornhill: Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.

Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.

THIS.

The plots to kill Hitler by German military officers wasn't motivated by a belief that Germany's racial policies were wrong and immoral, but simply that Hitler's terrible management of the war was making defeat a sure thing. These guys wanted to win the war, not bring an end to the concentration camps.


Still wish they had had shot him down, don't you?  I don't know how it would have affected the outcome, but for him to die in fear rather then complaisance..he got off easy.  Him in  a french maid costume, with a pineapple being shoved up his ass is an image he deserves.


It would have ended the European war a year and a half earlier than it did, and probably frozen the Eastern Front right where it was (at Stalingrad), thereby keeping Stalin's icy, bloody mitts off Eastern Europe. It would have allowed the liberation of the death camps that much sooner, and prevented the deaths of everyone in them at that time. And it would have freed up American and possibly British men and materiel to fight in the Pacific, and possibly enabled that war to have ended sooner rather than requiring the use of the atomic bomb.

The motivation for killing Hitler may not have been as pure as you'd have liked; but the German Army officers who engineered the plots knew as early as 1941, certainly by 1944 that the war was lost and wanted Hitler dead so they could negotiate a favorable peace. That they were not motivated by a saintly desire to stop the concentration camps is irrelevant. And, it was for that reason they didn't try sooner. Killing Hitler was pretty pointless unless they took out Himmler too. And getting them both in the same room was like catching Bush and Cheney eating at the same table.
 
2013-03-13 01:18:43 AM  
FAIL
 
2013-03-13 01:19:44 AM  

Acharne: DamnYankees: miniflea: Or perhaps I don't believe he was telling the truth when he claimed to be completely ignorant of einsatzgruppen activity while he was in command of 11th Army and decided to offend his, and apparently yours, delicate German sensibilities.

First of all, of course I don't believe him. Why the hell would I believe him? Are you actually getting upset that I'm not showing sufficient respect to a Nazi general?

And yes, you need the von. It's part of his name. Like Leonardo DiCaprio. You can't call him "Caprio".

So we are wrong for calling it the Manstein Plan?

I think you might be able to let this one go. I'm not sure the Internet needs this particular debate.


I replied a bit too strongly, I apologize.  However, if the author didn't find it necessary then I think I'm allowed to omit it.
 
2013-03-13 01:22:01 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Killing Hitler was pretty pointless unless they took out Himmler too. And getting them both in the same room was like catching Bush and Cheney eating at the same table.


And you had good and interesting points until this. Jack ass
 
2013-03-13 01:47:12 AM  
Gyrfalcon: It would have ended the European war a year and a half earlier than it did, and probably frozen the Eastern Front right where it was (at Stalingrad)

Doesn't really matter when Hitler would have been killed or the war ended, in no case would the eastern front have stabilized at Stalingrad.  There is also a tendency in these what if scenarios to underestimate the determination of Stalin, who in that respect mirrored Hitler.  Make all the suppositions you like about decisions that would have preserved Wehrmacht forces (admittedly there are many) but the fact is not only did Soviet superiority in numbers grow steadily but quality of leadership increased as well.  After Stalingrad it is difficult to picture the Soviet Union accepting anything other than complete surrender even with Hitler removed from power.
 
2013-03-13 01:52:54 AM  
So being part of a plot that never came to fruition makes one a hero? I never knew. Hey, I'm part of a plot to cure cancer. I can haz metal now?
 
2013-03-13 01:53:32 AM  
Medal*

/bah
 
2013-03-13 02:11:43 AM  
Everyone knows you shouldn't try to kill Hitler in the past!
 
2013-03-13 02:22:49 AM  
Two old Jewish assassins are set to kill Hitler on street corner in Berlin at midnight.  They're hiding in the shadows on either side of the street waiting, armed to the teeth with guns... knives... the whole 9 yards.  12:00 comes... no Hitler.  12:15... no Hitler.  12:30... still no Hitler.  One walks over to the other and says " He's late.. My God, I hope nothing happened to him!"
 
2013-03-13 03:00:52 AM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: I'm having a hard time justifying the Hero tag here, subby. The officer corps loved Hitler and how he restored the army to its glory. They voluntarily joined the Nazi Party, followed his orders vis-a-vis the Holocaust, invasions, etc., and only turned on Hitler when it was evident they were going to lose if he remained the leader. They would have followed him forever had Germany kept winning.

That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.


Does that mean all current military personel, play a part in drone strikes?
 
2013-03-13 03:02:15 AM  

TerminalEchoes: So being part of a plot that never came to fruition makes one a hero? I never knew. Hey, I'm part of a plot to cure cancer. I can haz metal now?

Why do you hate Law Enforcement personnel? Only criminals have a problem with heroes.
 
2013-03-13 03:19:59 AM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: That this guy was going to do something that seems noble in hindsight doesn't really whitewash what he had done before to rank up high enough to even have a shot at killing Hitler.


Dude.

Read the article.

Ewald-Heinrich von Kleist was a 22 year-old lieutenant.

He and his family opposed Hitler since before he took power.

The plan was for him to be a suicide bomber, and kill Hitler in the process.

It's like you managed to be completely wrong in pretty much everything you've said in that post.
 
2013-03-13 04:23:39 AM  

StoPPeRmobile: TerminalEchoes: So being part of a plot that never came to fruition makes one a hero? I never knew. Hey, I'm part of a plot to cure cancer. I can haz metal now?Why do you hate Law Enforcement personnel? Only criminals have a problem with heroes.


not-sure-if-serious.jpg
 
2013-03-13 07:35:43 AM  

Gyrfalcon: And it would have freed up American and possibly British men and materiel to fight in the Pacific, and possibly enabled that war to have ended sooner rather than requiring the use of the atomic bomb.


This I doubt.

The bottleneck wasn't men and material in the Pacific, it was the far-flung nature of the war there.

You still have the problem that the Japanese wouldn't have quickly surrendered, even with the home islands invaded, and you have to have a base close enough to those islands to launch an invasion.  Even if you double the amount of men and material, you have to account for the fact that most of the US naval assets larger than an escort carrier or destroyer were already in the Pacific.
 
2013-03-13 09:09:02 AM  
hhmmm...with all these guns around one would think there would of been an easier way to kill hitler. but nah, looney tunes style explosions were the way to go.
 
2013-03-13 09:29:08 AM  

TheShavingofOccam123: There were Germans who did not belong to the Nazi party.

The Wehrmacht officer who devised the plan to drive through the Ardennes and divide the French and British armies was not a member of the Nazi party. He stood up to Hitler often enough that he spent the last part of the war sitting at home. The best general Hitler had and he was put out to pasture for not being a loyal Nazi.

The head of the Abwehr was not a Nazi party member. He was part of Valkyrie. The SS stripped him naked then hanged him with piano wire, letting him come close to death then letting down so he could recover. They spent over a half an hour hoisting him up and down several times.

It is not fair to say that people who didn't come out openly against Hitler deserve no thanks for whatever attempt they made at resistance. The whole Allied bombing strategy against Germany was based on the belief that bombing cities would make the German populace rise up against Hitler. In a totalitarian state, particularly one armed with IBM card machines, that doesn't work. We could have leveled all of Germany and the populace would still be afraid of being executed for even the smallest of slights against the Party.


I agree it's a tough call, but I had a German great aunt who took one look at the Nazis, in the 30s, and left Germany for America.  She was a countess, so that meant giving up her estate, title, and much of her fortune, but she felt it was the only thing she could do.

Or look at Sophie Scholl...pity the German with the biggest balls was a schoolgirl.

Of course, she got executed, so perhaps it's unfair to expect everyone to stand up to their own society...
 
2013-03-13 05:58:58 PM  
Jesus, Kleist?
 
2013-03-13 08:51:26 PM  
I think people are misinterpreting the motivations behind the timing of the July 20 plot. While many certainly only chose that time because Hitler had failed them, many anti-Nazi members of the Wermarcht were forced to wait until that time to act, simply because they could not achieve public support for his assassination in the midst of victory.

I mean at least read the article before you're going to shiat on the memory of a guy who was willing to sacrifice his life for the greater good.
 
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