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(C|Net)   Microsoft wishes they knew how to quit Flash   (news.cnet.com) divider line 48
    More: Followup, Internet Explorer 10, flash, Microsoft, Adobe Systems, Windows RT, interactivity, library, Ed Bott  
•       •       •

3489 clicks; posted to Geek » on 12 Mar 2013 at 2:28 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



48 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

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2013-03-12 02:23:10 PM  
 Flash remains widely used on the Web, and likely won't be replaced on older sites that no longer are maintained.

No shiat, Sherlock?
 
2013-03-12 02:31:38 PM  
24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-03-12 02:33:08 PM  
I wish Flash wouldn't ask me to update every time I start my computer.
 
2013-03-12 02:33:13 PM  

show me: Flash remains widely used on the Web, and likely won't be replaced on older sites that no longer are maintained.

No shiat, Sherlock?


Exactly.  We have complicated legacy apps in Flash that I promise you- even though thousands use them every day- our client is not going to pay to move them to another platform.
 
2013-03-12 02:33:44 PM  
I haven't even noticed it missing in W8 since I use Firefox. Can they please let me lock the start/metro/modern menu to my second monitor.
/And Fifrefox can you please fix the open in new window instead of tab bug
 
2013-03-12 02:37:01 PM  
Microsoft's lack of balls are part of the problem here. If they just said "no Flash, ever" it would be enough to kill it. But no, instead they're coddling it to avoid offending anyone.
 
2013-03-12 02:39:26 PM  

drjekel_mrhyde: I haven't even noticed it missing in W8 since I use Firefox. Can they please let me lock the start/metro/modern menu to my second monitor.
/And Fifrefox can you please fix the open in new window instead of tab bug


You can change which monitor is the primary monitor in your Display Properties. The Start Screen will always appear on the primary monitor.

spottymax: I wish Flash wouldn't ask me to update every time I start my computer.


It does that because every single version of Flash ever made is a buggy and insecure POS. But if you ignore or don't install the updates, you're leaving yourself wide open for a butt-rape orgy of internet herpes that will spring from random malicious code you'll wind up viewing somewhere or other.

Flash updates should not be considered optional.
 
2013-03-12 02:48:14 PM  
How's that Silverlight adoption going, guys?  Worth all the man-years of development you put into it?
 
2013-03-12 02:50:16 PM  

downstairs: show me: Flash remains widely used on the Web, and likely won't be replaced on older sites that no longer are maintained.

No shiat, Sherlock?

Exactly.  We have complicated legacy apps in Flash that I promise you- even though thousands use them every day- our client is not going to pay to move them to another platform.


Sounds like they'll never leave IE6 or XP either.  Great plan!
 
2013-03-12 02:53:42 PM  
I think they are just in awe that somebody, somewhere managed to make a more malware friendly platform than they were currently shipping (ActiveX was hard to beat, but MS has had some doozies over the years).
 
2013-03-12 02:54:12 PM  

spottymax: I wish Flash wouldn't ask me to update every time I start my computer.


Well it could be java and ask you to update just as soon as the install for the last update is complete.
 
2013-03-12 02:57:28 PM  
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-03-12 03:02:24 PM  
If flash turns off for good ill never be able to play zookeeper adventure again. And that's unacceptable.
 
2013-03-12 03:06:56 PM  

jbtilley: Well it could be java and ask you to update just as soon as the install for the last update is complete.


Other than maybe college students who need to use Blackboard, IT pros with java-based management or development tools, or enterprise users who should have their shiat managed for them, people probably just don't need java at all.
 
2013-03-12 03:06:59 PM  
Flash is old. Old isn't good on computers. How about HTML5 it can do some things Flash never will.
 
2013-03-12 03:13:17 PM  

theurge14: downstairs: show me: Flash remains widely used on the Web, and likely won't be replaced on older sites that no longer are maintained.

No shiat, Sherlock?

Exactly.  We have complicated legacy apps in Flash that I promise you- even though thousands use them every day- our client is not going to pay to move them to another platform.

Sounds like they'll never leave IE6 or XP either.  Great plan!


Yeah, because rewriting complex graphical applications is just as easy as upgrading an OS or browser. *facepalm*
 
2013-03-12 03:19:26 PM  
Have they called Barry Allen? Wally West?
 
2013-03-12 03:34:36 PM  

poot_rootbeer: How's that Silverlight adoption going, guys?  Worth all the man-years of development you put into it?


Am I wrong in saying both Netflix and MLB TV both use Silverlight?
 
2013-03-12 03:38:09 PM  
Every time I see one of these "Flash must die in a fire!" threads I chortle a bit. There are still a great number of companies that have applications or pieces of their applications developed in Flash/Flex. While there's a lot to dislike about Flash it does solve one major problem, cross browser compatibly. I can run my app in Flash and know that it will work the same across all the major browsers, all the way back to IE6. You can't say the same for javascript/html. Hell, the supposed holy grail of HTML5 will not work on old browsers and the support is still spotty on new browsers. Don't get me wrong, I loves me some HTML5 and object oriented javascript but don't tell me that when you have to support "All the browsers" with a very small team of devs that using a plug-in like Flash isn't the way to go.
 
2013-03-12 03:38:26 PM  

downstairs: Am I wrong in saying both Netflix and MLB TV both use Silverlight?


Netflix only uses Silverlight for some browsers and Platforms. As I understand it, Microsoft abandoned it internally as a development platform.
 
2013-03-12 03:43:45 PM  

Fatbeard: Every time I see one of these "Flash must die in a fire!" threads I chortle a bit. There are still a great number of companies that have applications or pieces of their applications developed in Flash/Flex. While there's a lot to dislike about Flash it does solve one major problem, cross browser compatibly. I can run my app in Flash and know that it will work the same across all the major browsers, all the way back to IE6. You can't say the same for javascript/html.


Legacy jQuery worked pretty well across all browsers, even IE6. jQuery's dropped it since though, and plans to drop IE8 in 2.0, as "having half the code in the library devoted towards supporting old versions of a browser barely anyone uses" started sounding sillier and sillier.

The only major problem Flash solves is some tricky interface gimmicks that essentially introduce a new major problem.
 
2013-03-12 03:51:18 PM  

downstairs: poot_rootbeer: How's that Silverlight adoption going, guys?  Worth all the man-years of development you put into it?

Am I wrong in saying both Netflix and MLB TV both use Silverlight?


Yes, in that you said "both" twice.
You must really like both.
 
2013-03-12 03:58:14 PM  

Obbi: Legacy jQuery worked pretty well across all browsers, even IE6. jQuery's dropped it since though, and plans to drop IE8 in 2.0, as "having half the code in the library devoted towards supporting old versions of a browser barely anyone uses" started sounding sillier and sillier.

The only major problem Flash solves is some tricky interface gimmicks that essentially introduce a new major problem.


I'd have to disagree with your last point. We built a fairly complex application back in 2004 using HTML/Javascript but hit the wall with what we could do with the interface. The desire was to have lots of charts and drag and drop features that we just couldn't get working properly across all the supported browsers without lots of if/else code checking for specific browsers and versions. We finally went with Flex and development went much quicker. If you have the resources to devote to making large applications work cross browser then good on ya but given our circumstances I don't regret choosing Flex. The customers are happy and have never, to my knowledge, complained that they needed the Flash plug-in for our application to work.

Again, I agree that the new stuff is pretty great and I actually prefer to use Javascript now. The libraries that are now available solve most of the issues we've had in the past with cross-browser issues. There's a lot of great stuff out there and I believe JS has finally come into its own. But we still have to limit support for our newest application to Chrome and Firefox since it wasn't until IE8 or 9 when we got support for SVG and Canvas and we just don't have the resources to make sure that it works in IE. Fortunately this new application isn't aimed quite as much at the business user so the need to support all the IEs ever is not there.
 
2013-03-12 03:59:24 PM  
They should call Becca Valentine. She seemed to pull it off.
 
2013-03-12 04:06:15 PM  
ginormasource.com
 
2013-03-12 04:07:57 PM  

Fatbeard: Obbi: Legacy jQuery worked pretty well across all browsers, even IE6. jQuery's dropped it since though, and plans to drop IE8 in 2.0, as "having half the code in the library devoted towards supporting old versions of a browser barely anyone uses" started sounding sillier and sillier.

The only major problem Flash solves is some tricky interface gimmicks that essentially introduce a new major problem.

I'd have to disagree with your last point. We built a fairly complex application back in 2004 using HTML/Javascript but hit the wall with what we could do with the interface. The desire was to have lots of charts and drag and drop features that we just couldn't get working properly across all the supported browsers without lots of if/else code checking for specific browsers and versions. We finally went with Flex and development went much quicker. If you have the resources to devote to making large applications work cross browser then good on ya but given our circumstances I don't regret choosing Flex. The customers are happy and have never, to my knowledge, complained that they needed the Flash plug-in for our application to work.


I think my last point was more for today's times, not 9 years ago. I'll yield to you on this topic, as in 2004 I had only just begun learning programming, not even web development yet.

Your second topic is kind of a pain point for us as well. We're building a cloud-based application that's basically taking a very old windows application and making a more intuitive UI to go along with it. Chrome, Firefox, Safari make this easy. Unfortunately, we have clients, or prospective ones too, that use either oldIE(7 and 8) or Opera(which has its own set of malarky). The lack of CSS3/HTML5 Support kills the design guy on our team, but there's a common ground available with jQuery at the end of the day. However, we don't have to use canvas, so that may be why we lucked out.

My original assertion for Flash now is essentially for some stuff people take for granted. Copying text to clipboard automatically. But that kind of functionality also presents a security flaw. Without flash, you can still do it with Javascript, but most browsers don't like having that kind of security hole available and make it a bit difficult to seamlessly access a user's clipboard.

But, I still got a lot to learn, and the technology is improving, so we'll get there in time.
 
2013-03-12 04:11:15 PM  
Just another developer, voting for HTML5/JS/CSS.

\proprietary sucks
 
2013-03-12 04:12:45 PM  

Fatbeard: Every time I see one of these "DOS must die in a fire!" threads I chortle a bit. There are still a great number of companies that have applications or pieces of their applications developed in MS-DOS/PC-DOS. While there's a lot to dislike about DOS it does solve one major problem, cross PC compatibility. I can run my app in DOS and know that it will work the same across all the major PCs, all the way back to IBM 5150. You can't say the same for Windows. Hell, the supposed holy grail of Windows will not work on old PCs and the support is still spotty on new PCs. Don't get me wrong, I loves me some Windows and object oriented GUIs but don't tell me that when you have to support "All the PCs" with a very small team of devs that using an operating system like DOS isn't the way to go.


FIFY.

Amazing how the years go by but the arguments stay the same.
 
2013-03-12 04:14:51 PM  

MrEricSir: Fatbeard: Every time I see one of these "DOS must die in a fire!" threads I chortle a bit. There are still a great number of companies that have applications or pieces of their applications developed in MS-DOS/PC-DOS. While there's a lot to dislike about DOS it does solve one major problem, cross PC compatibility. I can run my app in DOS and know that it will work the same across all the major PCs, all the way back to IBM 5150. You can't say the same for Windows. Hell, the supposed holy grail of Windows will not work on old PCs and the support is still spotty on new PCs. Don't get me wrong, I loves me some Windows and object oriented GUIs but don't tell me that when you have to support "All the PCs" with a very small team of devs that using an operating system like DOS isn't the way to go.

FIFY.

Amazing how the years go by but the arguments stay the same.


Well played sir, well played.
 
2013-03-12 04:15:05 PM  

Cretony38: Flash is old. Old isn't good on computers. How about HTML5 it can do some things Flash never will.


I'm an admittedly backwards animator & use Flash for generating cartoony crap for weary eyes.

Is there a program anywhere as easy to use as Flash for generating animated HTML5 content?  In Flash I can draw right on the screen in the stage, use onion skinning just like a real gawddam animator from the old days.  OK, I'm a dinosaur.  Teach an old dog a new trick...

I've also got about 50 flicks out there that I'd need to translate from Flash to HTML5.  Any advice there?

Which one of you has my heart pills?  My toast is cold.  Rub my scaly feet!  CURSE YOU CLOUD (shakes fist at online servers).
 
2013-03-12 04:18:11 PM  

show me: theurge14: downstairs: show me: Flash remains widely used on the Web, and likely won't be replaced on older sites that no longer are maintained.

No shiat, Sherlock?

Exactly.  We have complicated legacy apps in Flash that I promise you- even though thousands use them every day- our client is not going to pay to move them to another platform.

Sounds like they'll never leave IE6 or XP either.  Great plan!

Yeah, because rewriting complex graphical applications is just as easy as upgrading an OS or browser. *facepalm*


If only there was some sort of computer program to assist in exporting these complex things.  :|
 
2013-03-12 04:19:23 PM  

Obbi: My original assertion for Flash now is essentially for some stuff people take for granted. Copying text to clipboard automatically. But that kind of functionality also presents a security flaw. Without flash, you can still do it with Javascript, but most browsers don't like having that kind of security hole available and make it a bit difficult to seamlessly access a user's clipboard.

But, I still got a lot to learn, and the technology is improving, so we'll get there in time.


Oh I can't wait until there is a full on replacement for Flash. Give it another couple of years and I think we will be well on our way to full compatibility across browsers. Chrome and Firefox are almost identical when it comes to how it handles JavaScript. I only wish there was more adoption of webkit as a standard and that the browser big boys would settle on a common JavaScript engine. Then my world would be a happy one.
 
2013-03-12 04:31:49 PM  

Parallax: Is there a program anywhere as easy to use as Flash for generating animated HTML5 content?


Flash. At least, I heard Adobe claim that they added HTML5 export functionality. I don't know how true or good it is.

Fatbeard: I only wish there was more adoption of webkit as a standard and that the browser big boys would settle on a common JavaScript engine


No. Just,  no. WebKit is a fine engine, but there's a fine line between "standardization" and "stagnation". We do not want a browser monoculture; we don't want WebKit (which still insists on -webkit prefixes on many HTML5 elements) to be the new IE6.
 
2013-03-12 04:43:12 PM  

t3knomanser: we don't want WebKit (which still insists on -webkit prefixes on many HTML5 elements) to be the new IE6.


I'd  really prefer having standardization with the risk of stangation, but I do also feel your worries. it actually pains me to agree with you on this front, just because of how much of a hassle it is to ensure compatibility when each browser plays by its own set of rules.
 
2013-03-12 05:11:09 PM  

likefunbutnot: jbtilley: Well it could be java and ask you to update just as soon as the install for the last update is complete.

Other than maybe college students who need to use Blackboard, IT pros with java-based management or development tools, or enterprise users who should have their shiat managed for them, people probably just don't need java at all.



risensources.com
 
2013-03-12 05:16:57 PM  

Fatbeard: don't tell me that when you have to support "All the browsers" with a very small team of devs that using a plug-in like Flash isn't the way to go.


So you'd sacrifice the entire iOS market in order to sustain support for desktop browsers that were obsoleted years ago?
 
2013-03-12 05:28:10 PM  

drjekel_mrhyde: I haven't even noticed it missing in W8 since I use Firefox. Can they please let me lock the start/metro/modern menu to my second monitor.
/And Fifrefox can you please fix the open in new window instead of tab bug


This limitation only affects people who are on RT devices, AFAIK
 
2013-03-12 05:47:48 PM  

poot_rootbeer: Fatbeard: don't tell me that when you have to support "All the browsers" with a very small team of devs that using a plug-in like Flash isn't the way to go.

So you'd sacrifice the entire iOS market in order to sustain support for desktop browsers that were obsoleted years ago?


A) iOS was not a consideration for our projects. If it was, see B.
B) Tablet interface != to Desktop interface. They are two very different paradigms. If you're trying to code both interfaces "the same" you're doing a disservice  to your users. Only the most simplistic of apps can be coded without considering the paradigm differences.
 
2013-03-12 05:57:21 PM  

likefunbutnot: downstairs: Am I wrong in saying both Netflix and MLB TV both use Silverlight?

Netflix only uses Silverlight for some browsers and Platforms. As I understand it, Microsoft abandoned it internally as a development platform.


Netflix uses Playready and IIS (the technologies behind Silverlight) for practically everything.  Silverlight's ease of development was what got them into it.

/$30kUSD per server core, per IIS license, and per client certificate per year.
//Microsoft is doing just fine from that technology
 
2013-03-12 06:05:32 PM  

downstairs: poot_rootbeer: How's that Silverlight adoption going, guys?  Worth all the man-years of development you put into it?

Am I wrong in saying both Netflix and MLB TV both use Silverlight?


Netflix tweeted earlier today that at least for Chromebooks, they were ditching Silverlight in favor for HTML5. One figure this will end up being true for other platforms in the future as well. Certainly Netflix isn't using Silverlight for the iOS and Android Netflix apps either.

Really though, Flash is something I've disabled long ago and it hasn't been an issue. HTML5 and WebGL really are the future. Flash is just outdated, resource hogging, security issue ridden crap.
 
2013-03-12 06:53:20 PM  

Obbi: just because of how much of a hassle it is to ensure compatibility when each browser plays by its own set of rules.


So long as each browser implements the same standard, in roughly the same way, we're in good shape.  How they implement that standard should be flexible. And yes, they should feel empowered to implement non-standard things as well. If they're good ideas, they standards bodies should jump on that functionality.
 
2013-03-12 06:53:40 PM  
I was a satisfied IE10 user until I ran into some bug that caused Flash to stop working whenever I visited Youtube and had me re-installing it 2-3 times a day.  Switched to Chrome, nary another problem.

 Its not a big deal now that I'm used to Chrome, but it was a PITA at the time.
 
2013-03-12 07:23:05 PM  
Obbi: ...just because of how much of a hassle it is to ensure compatibility when each browser plays by its own set of rules.

If only there were a free, regularly updated, animation engine that played identically across all platforms.
 
2013-03-12 07:29:43 PM  

Without Fail: If only there were a free, regularly updated, animation engine that played identically across all platforms.


If you're talking about Flash, it does work identically across all platforms. It crashes in IE, Chrome, Firefox, and Opera, on Windows, OSX and Linux.

Maybe you meant Unity, which is far better than Flash. I look forward to the future, when Unity can use WebGL for rendering instead of a plugin.
 
2013-03-12 07:49:53 PM  
Flash is going to go away. It just isn't going to go away overnight because a bunch of people who are far more technically informed and concerned than the majority of the user base poutrage about it. These things take time, occur incrementally, and never fast enough to satisfy those with forward-looking attitudes toward technology.
Patience is a virtue.
 
2013-03-13 04:50:47 AM  
Flash is going to be like Internet Explorer 6 and take years to go away because users still use it and developers still write code for it because users still use it.
 
Bf+
2013-03-13 09:52:51 AM  

jso2897: Flash is going to go away. It just isn't going to go away overnight because a bunch of people who are far more technically informed and concerned than the majority of the user base poutrage about it. These things take time, occur incrementally, and never fast enough to satisfy those with forward-looking attitudes toward technology.
Patience is a virtue.


But I want it gone noooowwww...
 
2013-03-13 03:37:23 PM  
So Microsoft realizes that its users aren't all mindless lemmings who will embrace the authoritarian control of their hardware-providing master?
 
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